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Author Topic: Oral transmission...  (Read 13522 times)

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Offline renevatio

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Oral transmission...
« on: August 28, 2009, 01:15:55 AM »
I decided it was best to post this here, even though I am confirmed +.

It seems like many here say all forms of oral sex are more or less no risk.

I beg to differ.

I contracted HIV from a guy via oral transmission.  We were unprotected for oral, but protected for anal.  PROTECTED EVERY TIME.  I was only with him maybe 15 or so times in the last 2+ years.  He was the only guy I saw during that period.  I am mostly into women, but have another side that I would feed from time to time.

I figure many here will disbelieve me.  I might be able to coax him to post here and confirm my story, if need be.  The first thing out of his mouth (he had no idea he was HIV+, I found out I was 1st, and called him) was "...but we were safe!"  So this came as a huge surprise.

I was only with 6 people in the last 3+ years, all whom have been contacted and checked...once I get my genotype, we will know for sure.


I am not trying to start trouble here, as I am really a newb to all of this.  But it seems like so many people seem OK with unprotected oral sex...
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs.
Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and then go and do that.
Because what the world needs is people who have come alive."

-Dr. Harold Thurman

Offline RapidRod

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Re: Oral transmission...
« Reply #1 on: August 28, 2009, 05:17:18 AM »
 Come back when you face the truth of how you really contracted HIV. You never contracting HIV from oral sex. Period.

Offline renevatio

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Re: Oral transmission...
« Reply #2 on: August 28, 2009, 06:52:42 AM »
Come back when you face the truth of how you really contracted HIV. You never contracting HIV from oral sex. Period.


That's what I figured would be the response from some here.  I will be contacting the guy mentioned today and ask him to join in the discussion here, so he might confirm it.

Also, to make such a blanket statement about transmission seems, at best, ignorant, when a simple google search of CDC documents say otherwise.

www.hiv.gov.gy/edocs/trans_oralsex.pdf


I don't really care if you persoanlly believe me, RapidRod, but other people looking for answers shouldn't be lied to about the risks.  I cannot confirm that I contracted it orally until I get the genotype, but will report back after my Dr's appointment in the near future.


It does happen, people.  It did to me.


~R~
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs.
Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and then go and do that.
Because what the world needs is people who have come alive."

-Dr. Harold Thurman

Offline RapidRod

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Re: Oral transmission...
« Reply #3 on: August 28, 2009, 07:06:17 AM »
You're correct I don't believe you.

Offline Ann

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Re: Oral transmission...
« Reply #4 on: August 28, 2009, 07:06:31 AM »
R,

You should have read the Am I Infected forum's Welcome Thread before you posted in that forum. If you had, you would have seen the following posting guideline:

Quote
Only those Moderators and members who are authorized to answer questions in the Am I Infected? forum are permitted do so. Unauthorized responses may be deleted without permission of the poster. Repeatedly posting replies of this nature may result in a Time Out or permanent ban, at the discretion of the Moderator Team.

I removed your thread from the Am I Infected forum and placed it here in I Just Tested Poz. Please do not post in the Am I Infected forum again. Thank you for your cooperation.

Ann
Condoms are a girl's best friend

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"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline nycpoz

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Re: Oral transmission...
« Reply #5 on: August 28, 2009, 08:39:36 AM »
Rene - Read my story here:

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=28610.0

I have no way to confirm until my ex-gf goes for a test. I will post again once she has done so. Studies say oral may be very low risk form of transmission (say, 1 in 20000).. but when it comes to HIV virus I think 1 in 20000 is not insignificant

But it is not important how you get it, more important is to see a ID doctor and get blood work done.

regards,
H

Offline confidentIwillbeOK

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Re: Oral transmission...
« Reply #6 on: August 28, 2009, 08:41:38 AM »
I cannot confirm that I contracted it orally until I get the genotype, but will report back after my Dr's appointment in the near future.

Renevatio, how will the genotype confirm this? Do you mean because it will match the other guy's?

Sorry about your diagnosis but as you probably know by know with proper medical care and treatment you have will probably do just fine and that HIV can be for many a chronic and manageable disease. 

Please post anything else you find......I am very interested in this topic as my partner and I are very curious about it.   

S.

Offline renevatio

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Re: Oral transmission...
« Reply #7 on: August 28, 2009, 09:13:58 AM »
Renevatio, how will the genotype confirm this? Do you mean because it will match the other guy's?


Yes.  To me, at least, that would be as much confirmation as I will likely get.

Like I said, my list isn't that long...I lost my virginity to the woman who later became my wife.  And I never cheated.  So, up until age 31, I had been with a total of 1 person.

I am not all that sexually active, outside of relationships.  I am a hopeless romantic.  (Awwwww!)

Just call me S-A-P.



~R~
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs.
Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and then go and do that.
Because what the world needs is people who have come alive."

-Dr. Harold Thurman

Offline Inchlingblue

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Re: Oral transmission...
« Reply #8 on: August 28, 2009, 12:04:16 PM »
The thing about transmission via oral sex is that many more details are needed when discussing it. There's a huge difference between receptive and active oral sex for one thing. There's also a difference between going down on a man v. a woman. To say HIV can be transmitted by oral sex, do you mean giving or receiving it?

If going down on a man, there's a huge difference between if he cums or not. There's a difference whether or not there are any openings at all in the mouth of the person giving the oral sex. If going down on a woman, is there even a drop of menstrual blood, which would likely increase chances of transmission. Whether a man or a woman what are the viral load counts?

I do believe that it's possible for HIV to be transmitted via oral sex but all these variables I mention above, and probably a few others, need to be taken into account in order to figure out as best as possible what are the chances of transmission.

I think your experience is a very valuable one in learning more about how HIV can be transmitted via oral sex so it would help to know the extent of what you did as far as oral sex. I assume you went down on him because if he only went down on you, then transmission would be unlikely (unless he had bleeding gums and you had an opening on the skin of your penis). Did he cum in your mouth? if so, and if he had a high viral load, and especially if you had even the slightest opening in your gums then, sure, it's certainly possible for transmission to happen.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2009, 12:11:40 PM by Inchlingblue »

Offline sdguyloveslife

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Re: Oral transmission...
« Reply #9 on: August 28, 2009, 03:10:48 PM »
I was really struck with curiosity about this oral transmission incident until I read your other post. 

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=28694.0

After reading your other post about the binge drinking and drugging (sans needles) parties you have been attending for the past 1.5 years, do you think it might be "possible" that you may have forgotten about some minor detail of the nights in your "altered state" or that you might have even blacked out or that a fellow party-goer slipped you a roofie or  ____ fill in the blank?  I'm NOT pointing this out to make you look like a "bad person," but just to mirror back your own description that it sounds like you've had some really wild times!  It certainly seems “possible” to me just from the few paragraphs you wrote in your other thread that there may be an alternative explanation. 


Edited to add:  Doesn't matter to me one iota how you got your virus.  But I read the "am I infected?" forum often, and I feel pretty confident in our moderators often telling people "you won't be the first" to be infected by oral transmission.  But, just thinking out loud here...if you really did get your virus from oral sex, you might have a nationwide news story and get on a talk-show circuit or something!  You might even earn some money to furnish your new place in Hawaii? 
« Last Edit: August 28, 2009, 03:33:14 PM by sdguyloveslife »
Do not condemn the judgment of another because it differs from your own. You may both be wrong.

Offline renevatio

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Re: Oral transmission...
« Reply #10 on: August 28, 2009, 06:17:12 PM »
@ Inch - I received analingus and was both receptive and insertive fellatio-wise.  He also used his fingers.  He told me he was a strict top-only guy, another thing I thought would minimize my risk somewhat.

I believe I was concurrently infected anally with HSV-1, if that might help with figuring things out.  I can get a blood test for it, but that only shows I was exposed to HSV-1, just like 80% of the population has been...although I have never had cold sores in my life.  I got a lesion "back there" that has not returned, which leads me to believe it is HSV-1.  I was thinking that I will go to the doc if it comes back, although from what I have garnered from reading there is a chance it will not present again.



@sdguy - the partying was never like that for me.  Without going into too much detail, I was in the psychedelic world, a world of pushing mental and psychological limits...not so much the physical ones.   Collective dance events in the woods with big sound systems and music until 10am, or later.  The focus, for the most part, is the collective dance experience...they call the music "psychedelic trance" or "psy-trance" for a reason.  But this trance isn't played much here in the US, even less so in clubs of any kind.  If you want an example of it, go to youtube and look up "tikal meditation" - this is a track I have started my morning sets with in the past.  Scan forward past halfway to hear it really cranking...  Yup, I spun at some of the events myself.  I am, or maybe was, a DJ, lol.   It was an atypical "party" scene for sure, but still leaning to the unhealthy side of things, although most my friends were hippies and took really good care of what they ate and such.

Only a handful of friends in that world had any idea I had "another side" - so the idea of me getting too gone and doing stupid things is unlikely.  There may have been a couple of questionable times way back 5+ years ago that I could have been in such a state, but I was tested when I left LA, some 6 months after said behaviour occurred.

As to the guy...well, he and I didn't hang out, or party together.  I would call or text from time to time when I was in town, sometime after a night out at the bars, or whatever.  It was more of a utilitarian, albeit symbiotic relationship...and one that was sporadic at best.  I had come to his place feeling fine on a few occasions, and we would have a drink or two there usually...but nothing too crazy.

The question you raised is a fair, and altogether legitimate question, but one who's answer I feel pretty sure about. 


I am still considering getting him to post here so that I won't be made out to be such a pariah by some here.  I have no reason to lie...if you haven't figured it out by now, I am quite the open book and willing to admit to all my activities and/or transgressions.


I am at a loss for how this happened, after studying the transmission rates.


???

~R~
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs.
Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and then go and do that.
Because what the world needs is people who have come alive."

-Dr. Harold Thurman

Offline Inchlingblue

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Re: Oral transmission...
« Reply #11 on: August 28, 2009, 06:30:49 PM »
I do believe that it's possible for HIV to be transmitted via oral sex but all these variables I mention above, and probably a few others, need to be taken into account in order to figure out as best as possible what are the chances of transmission.

When I said above "and probably a few others" it's because I knew I was forgetting an important variable: other STDs.

Now that you mention HSV, yes of course this is something people don't take into account when talking about HIV transmission, orally or anally: the fact that other STDs present increase the risk of HIV transmission.

As the article below states, even healed genital herpes increases HIV risk.

Was there cum in the mouth during oral sex?

LINK:

http://www.emaxhealth.com/1020/53/32605/even-healed-genital-herpes-increases-hiv-risk.html

Offline RapidRod

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Re: Oral transmission...
« Reply #12 on: August 28, 2009, 06:46:50 PM »
When I said above "and probably a few others" it's because I knew I was forgetting an important variable: other STDs.

Now that you mention HSV, yes of course this is something people don't take into account when talking about HIV transmission, orally or anally: the fact that other STDs present increase the risk of HIV transmission.

As the article below states, even healed genital herpes increases HIV risk.

Was there cum in the mouth during oral sex?

LINK:

http://www.emaxhealth.com/1020/53/32605/even-healed-genital-herpes-increases-hiv-risk.html
No where in the article do they discuss HSV1 they are talking HSV2. Saliva has over a dozen different proteins and enzymes that inhibit HIV transmission.

Offline GNYC09

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Re: Oral transmission...
« Reply #13 on: August 28, 2009, 06:55:54 PM »
Come back when you face the truth of how you really contracted HIV.

RapidRod, do you think that is a constructive way of dealing with somebody who has recently been diagnosed as HIV+ and is trying to understand what happened?  I've noticed you respond abrasively to many worried newbies.

I'd imagine more empathy coming from somebody holding moderator status (assuming you are - I may be wrong) particularly since the forum rules state, "Forums members must behave at all times with respect and honesty."
« Last Edit: August 28, 2009, 06:57:54 PM by GNYC09 »

Offline renevatio

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Re: Oral transmission...
« Reply #14 on: August 28, 2009, 06:58:29 PM »
When I said above "and probably a few others" it's because I knew I was forgetting an important variable: other STDs.

Now that you mention HSV, yes of course this is something people don't take into account when talking about HIV transmission, orally or anally: the fact that other STDs present increase the risk of HIV transmission.

As the article below states, even healed genital herpes increases HIV risk.

Was there cum in the mouth during oral sex?

LINK:
http://www.emaxhealth.com/1020/53/32605/even-healed-genital-herpes-increases-hiv-risk.html


Nope, none of the oral sex resulted in ejaculation, although I would imagine that there was pre-come present.


~R~


"Don't ask yourself what the world needs.
Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and then go and do that.
Because what the world needs is people who have come alive."

-Dr. Harold Thurman

Offline RapidRod

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Re: Oral transmission...
« Reply #15 on: August 28, 2009, 07:09:59 PM »
RapidRod, do you think that is a constructive way of dealing with somebody who has recently been diagnosed as HIV+ and is trying to understand what happened?  I've noticed you respond abrasively to many worried newbies.

I'd imagine more empathy coming from somebody holding moderator status (assuming you are - I may be wrong) particularly since the forum rules state, "Forums members must behave at all times with respect and honesty."
Facts are facts...

Offline Joe K

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Re: Oral transmission...
« Reply #16 on: August 28, 2009, 08:19:54 PM »
I'm sorry that you have tested positive, but glad that you found this resource. I must, however, take exception to your declaration that you became infected solely through oral transmission. By your own admission you engaged in anal intercourse and even though protection was used, that is by no means confirmation that you were not infected through that route. Accidents with protection happen and the real issue here is not so much how you were infected, but your stating that you know it was through oral. Unless you are trained in HIV science, or you have been evaluated by the CDC or another acknowledged HIV specialist, I believe you are doing a vast disservice to our readers, by claiming a definitive transmission route when you are unable to prove no such thing.

This is not an issue of attacking you or your beliefs on how you became infected. Rather it is insuring that the information we present is fair and accurate and I do not see how your own beliefs, can confirm a sole route of HIV transmission.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2009, 08:23:16 PM by killfoile »

Offline Inchlingblue

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Re: Oral transmission...
« Reply #17 on: August 28, 2009, 08:39:19 PM »
No where in the article do they discuss HSV1 they are talking HSV2. Saliva has over a dozen different proteins and enzymes that inhibit HIV transmission.

Herpes simplex virus (HSV) infection is a common cause of ulcerative mucocutaneous disease in both immunocompetent and immunocompromised individuals. Classically, HSV type 1 (HSV-1) is acquired in childhood and causes orolabial ulcers, whereas HSV type 2 (HSV-2) is transmitted sexually and causes anogenital ulcers. However, both oral infection with HSV-2 and particularly genital infection with HSV-1 are increasingly recognized, likely as a result of oral-genital sexual practices. The clinical presentations of the 2 virus types are indistinguishable.

LINK:

http://hivinsite.ucsf.edu/InSite?page=kb-05-03-02

At any rate, apart from HSV, it is certainly possible to transmit HIV by way of oral sex. Just because the odds my be low that does not mean they are zero. If you are implying that there is zero possibility of transmitting HIV through oral sex then you're mistaken.
 
« Last Edit: August 28, 2009, 08:44:05 PM by Inchlingblue »

Offline RapidRod

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Re: Oral transmission...
« Reply #18 on: August 28, 2009, 09:04:34 PM »
Herpes simplex virus (HSV) infection is a common cause of ulcerative mucocutaneous disease in both immunocompetent and immunocompromised individuals. Classically, HSV type 1 (HSV-1) is acquired in childhood and causes orolabial ulcers, whereas HSV type 2 (HSV-2) is transmitted sexually and causes anogenital ulcers. However, both oral infection with HSV-2 and particularly genital infection with HSV-1 are increasingly recognized, likely as a result of oral-genital sexual practices. The clinical presentations of the 2 virus types are indistinguishable.

LINK:

http://hivinsite.ucsf.edu/InSite?page=kb-05-03-02

At any rate, apart from HSV, it is certainly possible to transmit HIV by way of oral sex. Just because the odds my be low that does not mean they are zero. If you are implying that there is zero possibility of transmitting HIV through oral sex then you're mistaken.
 
I suggest you read the long term serodiscordant studies.

Offline Joe K

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Re: Oral transmission...
« Reply #19 on: August 28, 2009, 10:34:28 PM »
I don't see anywhere in this thread where anybody said anything about it being impossible to get HIV through oral transmission. What I do see, is the OP emphatically stating that he got HIV through oral transmission, when he himself admits to engaging in anal intercourse, even if protected. I only see discussion of this particular posters belief in his transmission route and not the possibility of oral HIV transmission in general.

Offline renevatio

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Re: Oral transmission...
« Reply #20 on: August 28, 2009, 10:56:34 PM »
I'm sorry that you have tested positive, but glad that you found this resource. I must, however, take exception to your declaration that you became infected solely through oral transmission. By your own admission you engaged in anal intercourse and even though protection was used, that is by no means confirmation that you were not infected through that route. Accidents with protection happen and the real issue here is not so much how you were infected, but your stating that you know it was through oral. Unless you are trained in HIV science, or you have been evaluated by the CDC or another acknowledged HIV specialist, I believe you are doing a vast disservice to our readers, by claiming a definitive transmission route when you are unable to prove no such thing.

This is not an issue of attacking you or your beliefs on how you became infected. Rather it is insuring that the information we present is fair and accurate and I do not see how your own beliefs, can confirm a sole route of HIV transmission.


Thank you for your commentary, killfoile.  I said that we used protection each time, and the condom never broke.  I did not say I had empirical evidence of the definite route of infection, as that is veritably impossible to ascertain, unless someone is intentionally infected in a controlled laboratory setting, so as to rule out all other routes of infection...and this is not Nazi Germany, so that isn't going to happen.

I am not lying.  I am willing to entertain all options.  I am willing to share all details about my interaction with him, and others.  I am not here to pick fights...but I am also not afraid of standing up for myself.

I would love to have a definitive answer here, but know it will likely be simply a process of educated guesses and supposition...which leaves a big question mark at every path's endpoint.

Does it somehow make me less responsible for my present situation if I contracted this by this means or that?  Does it change the fact that I am faced with this new set of challenges?  No, and no.

I really was trying to point out that oral transmission can occur.  I may have overstepped my bounds by saying, "...it happened to me..." - because you are right, I cannot say that with complete surety.  But I can state that I was fully protected during penetrative sex, and had (1) insertive partner in the last 3+ years, and less than 20 experiences with him during that time.

All in all, something did not follow the bell curve here.



I am, though, settling in to my new paradigm, albeit with starts and fits.



And if anyone here wishes only to insult and throw stones, I would be just as well if you wouldn't waste your time trying to gain negative attention by attacking others here with legitimate questions and concerns.  I will gladly engage anyone in a respectful and intelligent debate...but crass ad hominem attacks simply belie the lack of standing of their argument...or possibly something even more deeply seeded than that.

Anyhow, I appreciate everyone's input, even those that fundamentally disagree with my stance.


Seriously.


~R~


« Last Edit: August 28, 2009, 10:58:16 PM by renevatio »
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs.
Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and then go and do that.
Because what the world needs is people who have come alive."

-Dr. Harold Thurman

Offline Joe K

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Re: Oral transmission...
« Reply #21 on: August 28, 2009, 11:13:47 PM »
I never accused you of anything other than stating that you "knew" how you became infected. Even you now admit that you cannot be sure, other than assuming that all sexual encounters, with the exception of oral is how you contracted HIV. As I said, I am not here to judge you, but to merely clarify to our readers what is considered as safer sex.

Might I also suggest that you read these forums before you paint us all with the same brush. To suggest, after 9 posts that this site does not encourage open and meaningful debate is untrue. Other than denialists, this site is open to all discussions regarding HIV transmission routes. However, this site is populated by members who know the very latest data concerning HIV transmission routes and we have a duty to our readers to provide what is known, in a clear manner that does not allow room for unsubstantiated claims as to transmission routes.

Just because I do not agree with your deductions, does not mean I judge you. But I have been poz for 25 years and I know the damage that misinformation can cause and even you have admitted, that your original post was incorrect in stating that you got HIV from oral sex only. My whole point here is that thousands read these threads and it would be unfair to all readers, to allow misconceptions regarding HIV transmission routes to be stated as fact.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2009, 11:16:16 PM by killfoile »

Offline sdguyloveslife

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Re: Oral transmission...
« Reply #22 on: August 28, 2009, 11:17:01 PM »
Thanks for clarifying that with your post.  Do you really think that coaxing your friend to corroborate your story is really going to sway anyone's belief of how you acquired your HIV?  Quite frankly, I think you've clearly admitted enough other "activities" that would make any normal person question your assertion that you were infected by oral sex.  Let it go. 

The fact is that "oral transmission" doesn't get very favorable airplay on this site - and if you spend any time in the "am i infected?" section you will see why.  There's people who come into the forums freaking out with a fever and swollen glands because somebody of unknown HIV status "blew a kiss" toward their penis, but never touched it, but they think some saliva traveled through the air and landed clearly in the center of their urethra and they swear up and down that they had a microscopic cut on their penis because they touched themselves the day before when they had a hangnail!  LOL!   

At the end of the day, it doesn't matter.  The fact is, you got it!  Focus on the adjustment to that fact.  Get the support and information on here that you're gonna need to move forward on how you're gonna deal with it rather than spend any more time trying to make a case for your own personal belief of "oral transmission." 

Best wishes,
Richard
Do not condemn the judgment of another because it differs from your own. You may both be wrong.

Offline confidentIwillbeOK

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Re: Oral transmission...
« Reply #23 on: August 29, 2009, 12:09:54 AM »
......so that I won't be made out to be such a pariah by some here. 

...your posts do not and will not make you out to be a pariah.  I for one am really interested in this thread and hope that some more details will emerge to help you figure out what happened.  You seem like a cool and friendly guy and hopefully the forum can give you support and encouragement as you deal with this. 

Steve

Offline Inchlingblue

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Re: Oral transmission...
« Reply #24 on: August 29, 2009, 12:36:38 AM »
I don't see anywhere in this thread where anybody said anything about it being impossible to get HIV through oral transmission. 

Have you read all of RapidRod's responses? He may not have stated outright "It is impossible to get HIV through oral transmission." But he might as well have.

Offline Ann

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Re: Oral transmission...
« Reply #25 on: August 29, 2009, 07:18:35 AM »

I'd imagine more empathy coming from somebody holding moderator status ....


RapidRod is not a moderator.

If you look under any poster's name, you'll see either "Member", "Moderator" or "Administrator". In the "users online" list, moderators appear in blue and admin appears in red. The only real difference between a mod and an admin is that we admins can fiddle with the nuts and bolts of the software. :)

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Offline mecch

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Re: Oral transmission...
« Reply #26 on: August 29, 2009, 08:08:40 AM »
Dear all,

Scientific research, our practical experience, etc etc, all points to Oral Transmission being highly improbable. Let's all admit there are some scientists who say it is not "impossible."

To the OP, this forum and others like it no doubt see, over time, the same story ("I got it through oral") over and over, many many many more times than it would ever be possible for it to be true.  If you continue in this topic in this forum, you are going to get some education, some "shade", and some abuse.  

Think back to high school debate, if perhaps you did that or know someone who did. For the argument to continue, you'll have to have more points to make.  Both sides arguing the same point gets boring.  

You'll need proof to make it to the next level of success in this debate. And you know what, proof won't matter, because the people on each side of the debate will just stick to their general argument.   If you are the one in 20000 or one in a million or whatever who got HIV from "oral", the other side of the debate will have convincing arguments about why that fact isnt very interesting from an epidemiological perspective, generally, or psychological for you, or for your health, or for the way HIV prevention education works,  etc etc.  And their arguments will be good ones.

Sorry about your diagnosis.


« Last Edit: August 29, 2009, 08:10:26 AM by mecch »
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline keyite

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Re: Oral transmission...
« Reply #27 on: September 02, 2009, 06:50:46 PM »
renevatio - just to say you're far from alone.

Not alone in reasonably suspecting this to be a viable transmission route.

And not alone in being met with a wall of dismissal on this site.

Plenty of older treads on this subject - nuff said.

Offline Inchlingblue

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Re: Oral transmission...
« Reply #28 on: September 12, 2009, 01:07:23 PM »
I'm not sure what the specifics of this are but I came across this:

The CDC (U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention) in June updated its factsheet on oral sex and HIV. The following words were added: “numerous studies have demonstrated that oral sex can result in the transmission of HIV and other sexually transmitted diseases (STDs).” For a copy, write to CDC, 1600 Clifton Road, Atlanta, GA 30333, call 1-800-342-AIDS (342-2437), or visit www.cdc.gov.

LINK:

http://positivelyaware.com/2009/09_05/news_briefs.shtml#6

Also this:

Dear HIV Specialist,

I am a 24-year survivor and am 64 years old. During the 80s or early 90s I read an article in some gay publication that explained that if one’s mouth was healthy (no bleeding gums, no ulcers) one could swallow cum and not be concerned about contracting HIV because the natural stomach acid destroyed the virus. Am I delusional?

Signed, Swallow or Spit

Dear SOS,

Swallowing sperm is not the real issue. Any type of oral sex can be potentially hazardous. Your body’s first line of defense is intact skin and mucous membranes. I view the mouth as “the mirror of the HIV soul.” Signs of illness and a depressed immune system can show up first in the oral spaces. Your gums, mouth, and esophagus are fragile, subjected to daily hazards such as toothpicks, toothbrushes, pencils, fingers, foods, and chemicals. You may not always be aware of breaks in the oral membranes. There is a slight potential of contracting HIV by exposing your oral mucous membranes to HIV-infected sperm. The level of HIV virions is greater in sperm and vaginal secretions than in blood. But I would be more worried about syphilis, gonorrhea, herpes, warts, and just plain bacterial infections from lack of basic oral hygiene. The effects of these would appear sooner. Inspect your partner’s lips and genitalia before engaging. “Turn the lights on” if you must. The use of dental dams and condoms should be the rule not the exception. Congratulations on your surviving this long. Take heart and keep taking your HAART. 


LINK:

http://positivelyaware.com/2009/09_05/ask.shtml
« Last Edit: September 12, 2009, 01:11:15 PM by Inchlingblue »

Offline confidentIwillbeOK

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Re: Oral transmission...
« Reply #29 on: September 12, 2009, 01:14:06 PM »
Here is the direct link to the CDC factsheet:

http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/resources/factsheets/oralsex.htm

...and one of the parahraph's:

Oral Sex and the Risk of HIV Transmission


The risk of HIV transmission from an infected partner through oral sex is much less than the risk of HIV transmission from anal or vaginal sex. Measuring the exact risk of HIV transmission as a result of oral sex is very difficult. Additionally, because most sexually active individuals practice oral sex in addition to other forms of sex, such as vaginal and/or anal sex, when transmission occurs, it is difficult to determine whether or not it occurred as a result of oral sex or other more risky sexual activities. Finally, several co-factors may increase the risk of HIV transmission through oral sex, including: oral ulcers, bleeding gums, genital sores, and the presence of other STDs. What is known is that HIV has been transmitted through fellatio, cunnilingus, and anilingus.

...if you are interested it would probably be worthwhile to read the whole factsheet. 

Offline markaj

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Re: Oral transmission...
« Reply #30 on: September 19, 2009, 10:49:44 AM »
I for one am rather astounded when I read some of the replies in the 'Am I Infected' section where the risk was oral.  My understanding is it's biologically plausible and I'm sure it happens, the only issue is it's difficult to determine precise numbers because very few people just engage in oral sex.

Here in the UK the Health Protection Agency estimates between 1% and 3% of HIV cases result from oral transmission, especially if there's ejaculation in the mouth, if there are mouth lesions present, cuts or sores in the mouth, throat infections, bleeding gums or the top has a high viral load.  This seems no different to the CDC factsheet confidentIwillbeOK has kindly posted.

I realise that some of the scenarios in 'Am i infected" are frankly, absolutely ridiculous, but why are the replies always so definitive where oral transmission is concerned?

Mark
« Last Edit: September 19, 2009, 06:17:34 PM by markaj »
Infected Jan 08 / diagnosed Feb 08
Feb 08 - CD4 230 (9%) VL 3.5 million
Mar 08 - CD4 440 (6%) VL 660.000
Apr 08 - CD4 420 (11%) VL 3 million
Jun 08 - CD4 200 (7%) VL 3 million
Started Kaletra/Truvada Jul 08
Jul 08  - CD4 250 (14%) VL 23.893
Aug 08 - CD4 410 (15%)  VL 4.313
Switched to Sustiva/Truvada Aug 08
Switched to Reyataz/Norvir/Truvada Sep 08
Diagnosed with Hep C, HIV meds stopped for a bit
Nov 08 - CD4 414 (12%) VL 500.000+
Started Isentress/Truvada Nov 2008
Dec 08 - CD4 381 (17%) VL 1.116
Jan 09 - CD4 534 (20%) VL <50
Started Interferon/Ribavirin Jan 09
Feb 09 - CD4 407 (24%) VL <50
Mar 09 - CD4 360 (28%) VL <50
Apr 09 - CD4 279 (30%) VL <50
Jun 09 - CD4 298 (36%) VL <50
Aug 09 - CD4 303 (35%) VL <50

Offline tony_wdc20001

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Re: Oral transmission...
« Reply #31 on: September 30, 2009, 11:30:51 AM »
Renevatio,

Sorry you received such a backlash with your post about oral transmission.  I certainly believe that HIV can be transmitted orally under certain circumstances (i.e., open cuts, sores in the mouth, exchange of fluids or pre-cum).  My concern for you now is that you get proper care to live with virus and hope the other post that fall short of calling you a liar doesn't cause you any great discomfort.

Best,
Tony
-------
05/08 - Tested negative (oral)
09/08 - Tested negative (blood)
02/09 - Flu-like symptoms
02/09 - Tested negative (blood)
07/09 - Tested positive (blood)
07/30/09 - CD4 147 (12%),  VL 40803
08/13/09 - Started Viramune/Truvada (1 tablet each 1x day)
08/23/09 - Increase Viramune (1 tablet 2x day)
09/09/09 - CD4 380 (22%), VL 207
10/05/09 - CD4 441 (24%), VL 90
10/27/09 - CD4 479 (26%), VL 111
12/16/09 - CD4 455 (31%), VL 50
02/24/10 - CD4 646 (32%), VL undetectable
06/14/10 - CD4 590 (30%), VL undetectable

Offline Dale Parker

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Re: Oral transmission...
« Reply #32 on: October 01, 2009, 03:19:09 PM »
I do believe that you can get HIV from giving oral under certain circumstances.  When I got my test results back the Western Blot was the blip in the results.  My test result was as follows:
HIV 1/2 ScreenMEIA                 Reactive
HIV-1/HIV-2 Supplemental EIA   Reactive
HIV 1 Western Blot            Weakly Reactive
HIV 1 p24 Antigen Screen          Reactive
HIV -1 p24 Antigen Confirmed    Reactive
They figure that I was HIV+ for years but the Western Blot shows a recent infection, most likely in the 4 months prior to testing.
For about a year prior to testing I did not have any anal sex at all. However I do love to give blow jobs and often swallow. Normally I think the chances of transmission are pretty rare in cases like this. However for 7 months prior to getting tested and about 3 months after I did have Thrush.  I'm sure the Thrush is the reason for the second infection.
Apr 09  CD4 21, CD4/CD8 ratio 0 VL 500,000+
July 09 CD4 158, CD4/CD812% VL 750
Oct 09 CD4 157 CD4/CD8 14% VL UD
Feb 10 CD4 197, CD4/CD8 11% VL UD
May 10  CD4 252 CD4/CD8 12% VL UD
Aug 10 CD4 211 VL UD
Nov 10 CD4 272 CD4/CD8 0.138 VL UD

Offline skeebo1969

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Re: Oral transmission...
« Reply #33 on: October 01, 2009, 07:03:34 PM »


  To be honest I don't care how you were infected, I just hope you are taking care of yourself.  I would caution anyone who thinks it's ok to just wrecklessly go out and perform oral on anyone under the assumption that they will not get infected with HIV.  Not because I think it is necessarily a plausible mode, but because there are easier std's out there to get from doing so.

renevatio, you have to remember this is a site that gains it's information from factual data, not theories.  In theory HIV can be spread via oral, factually there is no documented writings to fully support it.  With that said you have to take it for what it is.  If you believe you received HIV via oral it doesn't matter what anyone thinks, the fact remains  you are now positive.  Forget the little stuff, there are more important issues you need to face now.

 

 
I despise the song Love is in the Air, you should too.

Offline sparky1976

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Re: Oral transmission...
« Reply #34 on: October 03, 2009, 07:29:00 AM »

Here in the UK the Health Protection Agency estimates between 1% and 3% of HIV cases result from oral transmission, especially if there's ejaculation in the mouth, if there are mouth lesions present, cuts or sores in the mouth, throat infections, bleeding gums or the top has a high viral load.  This seems no different to the CDC factsheet confidentIwillbeOK has kindly posted.

That’s close to what my consultant told me when I asked about the risk of transmission via oral sex. She didn’t rule it out entirely, however did seem to stress that there really did have to other underlying circumstances in play for transmission to occur – bleeding gums, infections, etc, etc, as you point out. I guess because there is a slim chance that transmission can occur they wont rule it out, however she did also stress that this isn’t something I really need to worry about because the risk possed is so slim – I basically asked because the thought of giving or receiving oral and using a condom doesn’t appeal to me whatsoever, but I’m still in the ‘paranoid’ stage of passing HIV on by accident so felt it was something I needed to know.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2009, 07:33:24 AM by sparky1976 »

Offline renevatio

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Re: Oral transmission...
« Reply #35 on: October 03, 2009, 10:09:21 AM »
While I do appreciate most of the responses, I, honestly, have felt disinclined to spend much time here in the forums since my initial less-than-welcoming first interactions, both here in this thread and the only other one I started.  I find myself not really wanting much to do with this place due to the bad taste left in my mouth :) from the more or less open attacks on me, personally.  Like I have stated previously, I welcome all debate involving facts and data...but refuse to engage with those who lack the social conditioning, self-respect, or maybe simply CPU processing capacity to respectfully engage in such an interaction.  After reading here quite a bit, it seems like this may not be a place for me.  I think my approach to life does not closely enough align with the ethos that seems to be prevalent here.  That being said, I wouldn't label such a disconnect as good or bad...it just is.

And, while I appreciate that everyone has their own perspective, their own view of this journey, and the accompanying definitions that give structure, meaning, and direction to their lives...I also have the option to choose whether or not such exchanges are beneficial to my path, or the path that I am choosing to walk whilst here.  Reality is not as concrete as we would like to believe, IMHO, and the mind is the lense through which we get to choose how and upon which things to focus.  Perception is reality, or so it has been said.

So suffice it to say it thusly: I am under a Dr.'s care, and am very actively addressing my disease, albeit non-pharmacologically at the moment.  I accept my status, and the challenges contained therein, and look forward to the lessons in strength, perseverance, and acceptance that undoubtedly await me around the bend.  This came to my me for a reason, and fully exploring into this experience is now what I will do.  I can allow this to crush me, to absolutely define me, or to be the catalyst to effectively change parts of me that need attention, and maybe have needed for most of my life.  My choice, eh?

Thanks you to all that genuinely cared and wanted to participate with me.  There is love here, mixed within the pain.  Feed the white dog...  :)

"Don't ask yourself what the world needs.
Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and then go and do that.
Because what the world needs is people who have come alive."

-Dr. Harold Thurman

Offline sparky1976

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Re: Oral transmission...
« Reply #36 on: October 03, 2009, 11:42:11 AM »
While I do appreciate most of the responses, I, honestly, have felt disinclined to spend much time here in the forums since my initial less-than-welcoming first interactions, both here in this thread and the only other one I started.  I find myself not really wanting much to do with this place due to the bad taste left in my mouth :) from the more or less open attacks on me, personally.  Like I have stated previously, I welcome all debate involving facts and data...but refuse to engage with those who lack the social conditioning, self-respect, or maybe simply CPU processing capacity to respectfully engage in such an interaction.  After reading here quite a bit, it seems like this may not be a place for me. 

That’s a shame you feel like that renevatio, tho I can certainly see why you do. I chirped up because I did genuinely have concerns over the risk of transmission via oral and the information that was presented to me by my consultant does mirror points made by others in this thread, so I don’t think anyone can 100% rule it out when professionals within the field wont 100% rule it out either.

Also, a guy I was kind of dating towards the end of last year tested positive and he believes he caught HIV through oral. Now whether I believe him or not isn’t the issue really, for me it was the fact that whether he did or didn’t, this is how he is dealing with the issue and far be it from me to piss on someone’s way of coping with news like this, even if I don’t personally believe the route by which he was infected. In other words, don’t let your first experience here put you off coming and posting back here - this place is supposed to be a place where people can open up and discuss their experiences and also, at times, look for support from others, least that was the reason why I opened an account. :)

Offline Rev. Moon

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Re: Oral transmission...
« Reply #37 on: October 03, 2009, 11:50:45 AM »
Sad that a member (probably not the first) feels like he has to leave or stop participating because an apparently taboo (and not a sweet one, Ms. Sade) subject leads to unnecessary ugliness.  

When it comes to oral transmission we are...



and clearly some people will never change their stance on the subject.  End o'story.

At any rate, as Thomas said, what matters in the end is not how it was contracted, but how to properly deal with it.   Not like it matters whether we have different flavours of HIV out there (is yours anal, oral, or vaginal?).  
"I have tried hard--but life is difficult, and I am a very useless person. I can hardly be said to have an independent existence. I was just a screw or a cog in the great machine I called life, and when I dropped out of it I found I was of no use anywhere else."

Offline Assurbanipal

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Re: Oral transmission...
« Reply #38 on: October 03, 2009, 12:08:58 PM »
  Not like it matters whether we have different flavours of HIV out there (is yours anal, oral, or vaginal?).  

Pomegranate
5/06 VL 1M+, CD4 22, 5% , pneumonia, thrush -- O2 support 2 months, 6/06 +Kaletra/Truvada
9/06 VL 3959 CD4 297 13.5% 12/06 VL <400 CD4 350 15.2% +Pravachol
2007 VL<400, 70, 50 CD4 408-729 16.0% -19.7%
2008 VL UD CD4 468 - 538 16.7% - 24.6% Osteoporosis 11/08 doubled Pravachol, +Calcium/D
02/09 VL 100 CD4 616 23.7% 03/09 VL 130 5/09 VL 100 CD4 540 28.4% +Actonel (osteoporosis) 7/09 VL 130
8/09  new regimen Isentress/Epzicom 9/09 VL UD CD4 621 32.7% 11/09 VL UD CD4 607 26.4% swap Isentress for Prezista/Norvir 12/09 (liver and muscle issues) VL 50
2010 VL UD CD4 573-680 26.1% - 30.9% 12/10 VL 20
2011 VL UD-20 CD4 568-673 24.7%-30.6%
2012 VL UD swap Prezista/Norvir for Reyataz drop statin CD4 768-828 26.7%-30.7%

Offline skeebo1969

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Re: Oral transmission...
« Reply #39 on: October 03, 2009, 12:19:25 PM »
While I do appreciate most of the responses, I, honestly, have felt disinclined to spend much time here in the forums since my initial less-than-welcoming first interactions, both here in this thread and the only other one I started.  I find myself not really wanting much to do with this place due to the bad taste left in my mouth :) from the more or less open attacks on me, personally.  Like I have stated previously, I welcome all debate involving facts and data...but refuse to engage with those who lack the social conditioning, self-respect, or maybe simply CPU processing capacity to respectfully engage in such an interaction.  After reading here quite a bit, it seems like this may not be a place for me.  I think my approach to life does not closely enough align with the ethos that seems to be prevalent here.  That being said, I wouldn't label such a disconnect as good or bad...it just is.

And, while I appreciate that everyone has their own perspective, their own view of this journey, and the accompanying definitions that give structure, meaning, and direction to their lives...I also have the option to choose whether or not such exchanges are beneficial to my path, or the path that I am choosing to walk whilst here.  Reality is not as concrete as we would like to believe, IMHO, and the mind is the lense through which we get to choose how and upon which things to focus.  Perception is reality, or so it has been said.

So suffice it to say it thusly: I am under a Dr.'s care, and am very actively addressing my disease, albeit non-pharmacologically at the moment.  I accept my status, and the challenges contained therein, and look forward to the lessons in strength, perseverance, and acceptance that undoubtedly await me around the bend.  This came to my me for a reason, and fully exploring into this experience is now what I will do.  I can allow this to crush me, to absolutely define me, or to be the catalyst to effectively change parts of me that need attention, and maybe have needed for most of my life.  My choice, eh?

Thanks you to all that genuinely cared and wanted to participate with me.  There is love here, mixed within the pain.  Feed the white dog...  :)



Hate to hear that you won't become a regular here.  Personally I think we all have a story to tell, and your mode of infection and/or people's agreement with it or lack of should not silence you.  Like I said earlier, I don't care how you were infected.  It really doesn't matter, but I do see why you feel the need to make a statement that oral is a viable way to be infected.  Is that statement to assist others from getting infected the same way? If it  is the intent then that is something quite admirable.  If it is to convince those that have studied, lived, and known countless others who are living with this disease you are fighting a  losing battle.

Should that be a reason to leave a site that is mainly for support for those living with this virus and not for how they  were infected?  I don't know, that depends on what kind of individual you are.  I also what to remind you this a community, you are not going to get along with everyone here just like in the real world.  Don't take it personal and keep what's important in perspective.

You only get back what you put in.....  I really do hope you stick around.
I despise the song Love is in the Air, you should too.

Offline Inchlingblue

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Re: Oral transmission...
« Reply #40 on: October 03, 2009, 12:26:10 PM »
Renovatio: When I read through this thread I see only one person who was outwardly rude to you. One bad apple should not spoil the whole bunch. ;)

Offline dtwpuck

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Re: Oral transmission...
« Reply #41 on: October 03, 2009, 08:07:08 PM »
I don't care how anyone thinks they got HIV.  It's not important. The fact is that you now have to deal with having a potentially life threatening disease.   Whether a person obsesses about whether he got hiv from a woman, from his ex boyfriend, from sucking cock, from someone who lied, from that one time where the condom broke.... it doesn't matter. 

Really.

It doesn't matter.   

What matters is whether you have learned to deal with the emotional and physical issues that are coming your way.    Many people on here feel that it is important to express the truth about hiv transmission to the letter of their personal paradigm.  And, you will find there are people who disagree with them as well.    The world is full of good advice and bad advice, the sage and the simplistic.   What you could be doing now is ignoring all of it, all of them.     Ask yourself "what do I need to get through this?"    It's not going away.  It's not going to suddenly get better if you end up being right.  And it's not going to get better if it turns out that you sleep walk to a bath house.
What will make it better is learning to deal with emotions, and seeking the help of the good people on this forum who are sensitive to the fact that this is just not easy for any of us.  We've been through it.   

So, might I suggest that you sit yourself down and say ask yourself not 'how you got it' but 'how am I going to live a positive and fruitful life?'     What do you love?  What do you need?   What do you have to get taken care of?     There are no right answers.  But there is a good way to begin to heal.

Best regards,
Scott

Floating through the void in the caress of two giant pink lobsters named Esmerelda and Keith.

 


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