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Author Topic: Universal healthcare in US  (Read 17782 times)

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Offline RapidRod

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #50 on: August 18, 2009, 09:45:59 AM »
Simple question. While bashing universal healthcare for others, do you receive government controlled, tax payer supported Medicaid? You're on record saying that you do.

Check your pay stub Rod and you'll see a payroll tax decrease.
Like I said above you don't know what you are talking about. You don't have a clue but that is a normal trait now isn't it? :D

Online Dachshund

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #51 on: August 18, 2009, 10:00:20 AM »
Like I said above you don't know what you are talking about. You don't have a clue but that is a normal trait now isn't it? :D

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=28128.msg347183#msg347183

Do I receive Medicaid the answer is yes.

                                        ~RapidRod

Offline RapidRod

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #52 on: August 18, 2009, 10:25:31 AM »
Quote from: David_NC on July 16, 2009, 10:57:25 pm
Rod, out of curiosity, what, if anything, would YOU like to see change with our healthcare system?  What would your suggestions be to 'fix' it?


Quote
The whole system needs fixed, but not by rushing into it like they did the stimulus package and the tarp funds. They have no idea how they are going to pay for it and rushing in to force it to be voted on before the August recess is ridiculous. There is no such thing as taxing the rich.  You’ve heard the old saying shit rolls down hill and that is what would happen. You believe, those rich people got into their status by being stupid? They are going to recoup their losses by increasing the prices of their goods and who ends up paying?  Your middle class that are taxed to death now, and those small businesses that employee most of the work force in the US will end up closing their doors and the unemployment rate will sky rocket. Remember it wasn’t that long ago they said without the stimulus package unemployment would go over 8%, well guess what, with the stimulus package unemployment has went over 8%. You can’t fix this system over night like they are trying to do.  Now David what are YOUR suggestions in fixing the system? Is there anything that our govenment haven't stuck their hands into that didn't turn into a mess?

Offline Joe K

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #53 on: August 18, 2009, 10:35:44 AM »
Joe, just be thankful you are. I gave it up long ago. Remember the Serenity Prayer. I do, otherwise, I'd go nuts.
Ann

Far from nuts, I am intrigued in watching this all play out and I just cannot understand why so many Americans are buying this load of crap from conservatives.  These are the same people that drove the country into the ground, the past eight years and why any intelligent person would even CARE what they think is beyond me.

What I find most confusing however, is you Rod.  You receive fully funded, government controlled Medicaid, yet you oppose universal health care for others.  How can you possibly take that stance with a clear conscience?  Why are you, or anyone, worthy of full coverage, when other Americans are not?  Our founding documents guarantee life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness and to me, that implies health care for all Americans, not just those who currently have it.  Please help me to understand how your supporting the defeat of health care reform, while dooming 50 million Americans without health insurance, is the American thing to do?

Offline RapidRod

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #54 on: August 18, 2009, 10:41:08 AM »
Far from nuts, I am intrigued in watching this all play out and I just cannot understand why so many Americans are buying this load of crap from conservatives.  These are the same people that drove the country into the ground, the past eight years and why any intelligent person would even CARE what they think is beyond me.

What I find most confusing however, is you Rod.  You receive fully funded, government controlled Medicaid, yet you oppose universal health care for others.  How can you possibly take that stance with a clear conscience?  Why are you, or anyone, worthy of full coverage, when other Americans are not?  Our founding documents guarantee life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness and to me, that implies health care for all Americans, not just those who currently have it.  Please help me to understand how your supporting the defeat of health care reform, while dooming 50 million Americans without health insurance, is the American thing to do?
Joe, I guess you've been gone so long getting your free Canadian health care that you haven't been following the discussion. No where have you read that I was against Universal Healthcare. Had you read the discussion that David and I had you would have read that I said the whole system needs fixed. But, it doesn't need rushed.. Read the above reply to David..

Offline Joe K

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #55 on: August 18, 2009, 11:18:02 AM »
Joe, I guess you've been gone so long getting your free Canadian health care that you haven't been following the discussion. No where have you read that I was against Universal Healthcare. Had you read the discussion that David and I had you would have read that I said the whole system needs fixed. But, it doesn't need rushed.. Read the above reply to David..

If you want to discuss the topic fine, but please do not insult my intelligence, nor Canada's by implying that Canadian health care is free.  Due to my income, I pay no income taxes, nor property taxes, however, I do pay the combined government/provincial taxes of 13.5% on everything I buy.  The only real difference in the health care we both receive, is that I get mine for a lot less money.

That being said, I still don't understand why you oppose health care reform.  Yes, they seem to be rushing it, but they don't have to enact anything, until they sort it all out.  What I see as important is to get the commitment, in law, to address the spiraling cost of health care.  How can you support waiting another five or ten years for some type of reform?  What exactly are you so afraid of happening, that reform can wait, yet again?  Granted the deficit sucks, but the Republicans gave Obama a trillion dollar one, for his inauguration and America will have to deal with that, but not on the back of the uninsured.

I remained confused by all these town hall meetings, with people screaming crazy things like "death panels", I mean really WTF???  You say you don't want them to rush, but what you are advocating is they do nothing and I just cannot see that as an option.  You cite the stimulus as not working, because unemployment went over 8%, but without it, what might the inflation rate be now?  12 - 13% probably.  Given what it would cost for unemployment insurance for those extra people and the fact that a job lost is very hard to regain and I would say that the stimulus was a cheap way to avert further financial decay.

I remain a pragmatist and while I understand the need to properly reform health care, at some point you have to take the first step and if we don't do it now, when will we?

Online Dachshund

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #56 on: August 18, 2009, 11:21:10 AM »
Joe, I guess you've been gone so long getting your free Canadian health care that you haven't been following the discussion. No where have you read that I was against Universal Healthcare. Had you read the discussion that David and I had you would have read that I said the whole system needs fixed. But, it doesn't need rushed.. Read the above reply to David..

Try as you might I can't let you continue to obfuscate the facts. Canada does not have free health care. They have a single payer tax supported system. The rich got their status thanks to the Bush tax cut for the wealthy and you're right the shit rolled right out of the pockets of the middle class. As for your lame unemployment statistics, you do fail to mention that the number of unemployed has continued to decrease. Way down from the 750,000 a month that were losing their jobs under Bush. It's amazing how conservatives just erase the debacle that was the Bush years, dumped on Obama's economic doorstep. I could waste my breath trying to explain to you how this would be paid for or point out that Obama has said he would veto any health care bill that isn't deficit neutral. Why bother?


As for going too fast. A little history lesson for you. Truman was the first President to propose universal health care, followed by Carter and then Clinton. Each in turn defeated by powerful corporate self interest.
 Joe makes a very valid point. Why would you be against a system that provides your very existence?
« Last Edit: August 18, 2009, 11:22:54 AM by Dachshund »

Online Dachshund

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #57 on: August 18, 2009, 11:34:08 AM »
How to pay for it.

Repeal the Bush tax cut-you know the one that took us from surplus to deficit in one year.

Eliminate waste and fraud in Medicare/Medicaid.

Switch to electronic record keeping.

Kill Grandma.

Offline RapidRod

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #58 on: August 18, 2009, 11:47:58 AM »
Blame it on the Republicans? How many Dems have we had in office since Truman? 5 since Truman if anyone is counting and not one has fixed the Healthcare system. This didn't happen over night and rushing it through without reading the bill and bring it up before committees would have been a complete failure. I'm not against Health Care reform and had you read what I said to David that the WHOLE SYSTEM needs FIXED is beyond me where you find it that I was against Health Care Reform. Asking that it be done in a proper fashion does NOT mean I'm against fixing the Health Care system. I worked from age 16-49 and yes I PAID my taxes and I have only received help for the last 4 years so don't slam me for getting help that I paiid into.

Offline RapidRod

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #59 on: August 18, 2009, 12:02:53 PM »
How to pay for it.

Repeal the Bush tax cut-you know the one that took us from surplus to deficit in one year.

Eliminate waste and fraud in Medicare/Medicaid.

Switch to electronic record keeping.

Kill Grandma.

I see you exempted the 4 trillion dollar deficient that Obama has gotten the US into. Bailout to banks with taxpayer money and forgot to notice that they didn't put stipulations on that money and top excs. still got their multimillion dollar bonuses after their banks failed and didn't keep track of where the money was going. Electronic record keeping. LOL They can't keep hackers out of the government computers. Eventhough where I get my medical service it has been on electric record keeping for years though they have just started the electronic prescriptions.

Online Dachshund

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #60 on: August 18, 2009, 12:09:02 PM »
I worked from age 16-49 and yes I PAID my taxes and I have only received help for the last 4 years so don't slam me for getting help that I paiid into.

Which is what every other taxpayer deserves. Nothing more, nothing less.

Offline RapidRod

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #61 on: August 18, 2009, 12:27:48 PM »
Which is what every other taxpayer deserves. Nothing more, nothing less.
No one is denying that. But lets do it right the first time instead of trying to rush it through when no one has had time to read the bill. Obama admitted in one of his own town meetings that he hasn't read it. Let them all read it and discuss it. Then put it on the ballot for the taxpayers to vote on. It's "We the People" not "We the Congress."

Offline Inchlingblue

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #62 on: August 18, 2009, 12:34:40 PM »
Blame it on the Republicans? How many Dems have we had in office since Truman? 5 since Truman if anyone is counting and not one has fixed the Healthcare system.  

But they have all TRIED (and been thwarted by the Republicans), unlike the Republicans who have not even made an effort!

Online Dachshund

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #63 on: August 18, 2009, 12:36:32 PM »
No one is denying that. But lets do it right the first time instead of trying to rush it through when no one has had time to read the bill. Obama admitted in one of his own town meetings that he hasn't read it. Let them all read it and discuss it. Then put it on the ballot for the taxpayers to vote on. It's "We the People" not "We the Congress."

We did vote on it, in November when we elected the Congress who represent the people. I leave this debate with you because I think I can feel my brain shrinking. At least I got you to admit we all deserve healthcare. I'll let you chase your tail on the other stuff. :D

Offline Joe K

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #64 on: August 18, 2009, 12:37:04 PM »
I don't understand how blaming Obama, for the stimulus bills that are necessary, to clean up the mess the Republicans left is fair.  Whether they could have been done better or whatever, is of little consequence now as we are talking about health care reform.  I repeat my question.  If Congress does not mandate some form of public option for health care insurance, where is the incentive going to come from, to reign in insurance costs?  If they take the public option away, the insurance companies will reap a bonanza.  A government mandate to be insured, with only the for profit companies holding all the cards.  All they have to give up is refusing coverage for preexisting conditions and life time caps on benefits, in return for millions of new young, HEALTHY insureds, that will have their insurance premiums subsidized by the government.  What a total scam on Americans.

If Congress won't act, or just passes some inferior legislation, all Americans should be outraged.  Sadly, too many Americans seem intent on ignoring the plight of 50 million Americans without health insurance.  I cannot understand how any true American could do such a thing.  I do not use the word American lightly, because with all our faults, America still represents one of the greatest countries on the planet.  Given our history, how we have developed by becoming that "melting pot" of humanity and grown, yet we remain so short sighted.  Any American would be appalled by a terrorist attack on other Americans, yet can oppose responsible legislation for universal health care.

In a perfect world, given this challenge, I would expect America to develop American Health Care and maybe we could find a way to do it, without compromising the very founding ideals of this country.  The fact that universal health care is still beyond reach, because of intimidation and misinformation is really sad.  Especially from a country that I know, could do so much better.  To me, this is the greatest loss of all.

Offline RapidRod

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #65 on: August 18, 2009, 12:41:30 PM »
Responsible legislation? When they were going to be forced to vote on it before the August recess without reading the bill. Get real. Would you sign a contract without reading it?

Offline Ann

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #66 on: August 18, 2009, 12:46:01 PM »

Far from nuts, I am intrigued in watching this all play out and I just cannot understand why so many Americans are buying this load of crap from conservatives.  These are the same people that drove the country into the ground, the past eight years and why any intelligent person would even CARE what they think is beyond me.


I have to admit I also find it intriguing. It's a bit like watching a train-wreck - I really don't want to look but I can't help myself.

I find it all very frustrating. As someone who has lived under both the American and the UK health-care systems, I know which I'd rather have. I might pay more taxes* over here, but I don't have to worry about paying huge co-pays and premiums and I don't have to worry about being dumped by my health insurance company because I have an incurable illness. It's a comfort to know that no matter what other uncertainties hiv may throw at me, I'll still have health-care. QUALITY health-care. Health-care I've funded through taxes when employed and still do through VAT (value added tax, akin to sales tax) every time I buy non-food items.

*(incidentally, cigarettes cost twice here what they cost in the States - they're heavily taxed and much of that tax money goes into funding the NHS. Sweetly ironic, no?) 

Joe, my mention of the Serenity Prayer reflects my sense of futility. I can't do anything about the debate in the US from this side of the pond. I have to keep the whole thing at arm's length because otherwise, it would just get me too worked up and too depressed. I can't believe the lies politicians are telling and the lies the public are swallowing and regurgitating as gospel. It's horrifying.

Ann
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"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline Joe K

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #67 on: August 18, 2009, 12:55:07 PM »
I agree that the deadline was a political move and ill advised, but my question remains.  There are real feasible options being discussed by both parties, but everybody is so busy, pissing on each others shoes, that most probably health care reform will be defeated once again.  I don't see anybody proposing a framework, within which we can begin to control health care costs, that puts all the real options on the table, not just those proposed by big business. When big business wins, the public interest loses, always has, always will.

What the discussion should be centered on is how to address health care reform and then make it happen. All this posturing is to wear everybody down and cave in to the special interests, who will just pass on their costs, at defeating health care reform, in the form of higher premiums and prices. I'm confused on how so many Americans are buying the lies and deceit of both parties and not demanding that Congress gets something done and done now. I'm advocating for the reform, not any political party as they both have their own issues.

This is not about Congress, it is about 50 million Americans without health insurance. It is about halting a health care cost cancer, that if left untreated, will bankrupt this country, period.  Those are the issues at stake here and they are huge.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2009, 01:00:12 PM by killfoile »

Offline Cliff

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #68 on: August 18, 2009, 01:00:48 PM »
Rod is flaming the discussion and you guys step into it everytime.  It's not a geniune discussion.  There are way too many twists, turns and jumbled logic for it to be geniune.

Offline RapidRod

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #69 on: August 18, 2009, 01:08:45 PM »
Rod is flaming the discussion and you guys step into it everytime.  It's not a geniune discussion.  There are way too many twists, turns and jumbled logic for it to be geniune.
I beg your pardon Cliff..

Offline Ann

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #70 on: August 18, 2009, 01:21:56 PM »
I just want to say that I'm very happy so far that although there are disagreements amongst posters to this thread, no one has thus far made personal attacks. Fantastic!

Let's keep it this way. By all means debate the issue, disagree with the opinion or action, but don't attack the person. I hate it when I have to come into a thread like this to give out warnings, and it feels good to be able to say "well done, keep up the good work" for once. :)

Ann
« Last Edit: August 18, 2009, 01:23:46 PM by Ann »
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HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline Joe K

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #71 on: August 18, 2009, 01:32:24 PM »
Rod is flaming the discussion and you guys step into it everytime.  It's not a geniune discussion.  There are way too many twists, turns and jumbled logic for it to be geniune.
Rod is not flaming me about anything, as I believe we both share the desire for real health care reform that is done in both a reasonable and feasible manner.  To me, that is a great step, because while we may disagree on how to attain the goal, at least we share the same goal.  That fact is my entire point on my confusion with Americans resisting health care cost reform. Ignoring the reality is blatantly in our own worse interest, yet there are millions of both Medicaid and Medicare recipients complaining about giving health insurance to all Americans.  Again, WTF?

It's really sad that so many Americans can be so cold, against the least of us.

Offline Inchlingblue

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #72 on: August 18, 2009, 03:08:12 PM »
I should add to the previous post re: the Democrats' history with health care that it was under President Johnson, a Democrat, that Medicare passed. At the time he advised Ted Kennedy, then a newbie in the Senate, that if congress knew how much it would cost they would not approve it so it would be best not to cost it out (those were the days).

As we know, Medicare is one of the most popular and beloved government-run programs in the country. Even at the town hall meetings you see people who claim to be against government-run health care making sure nobody touches their precious Medicare, God forbid. Isn't it ironic....dontcha think?

It seems government-run health care is good enough for all government employees, including every member of congress (who get it for life!) and it's good enough for all those on Medicare and Medicaid and it's good enough for all of those with VA benefits BUT it's not good enough for anyone else. Talk about twisted logic.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2009, 03:29:53 PM by Inchlingblue »

Offline David_CA

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #73 on: August 18, 2009, 03:49:01 PM »
It seems government-run health care is good enough for all government employees, including every member of congress (who get it for life!) and it's good enough for all those on Medicare and Medicaid and it's good enough for all of those with VA benefits BUT it's not good enough for anyone else. Talk about twisted logic.

As a State employee, I have 'government-run' insurance, although it's administered by BC/BS.  The pharmacy part is handled by Medco.  I have had no problems with the insurance part at all either in terms of cost or quality of treatment.  The pharmacy benefit is what I have a big problem with.  Local drug stores charge around $1675 for a 30-day supply of Atripla.  Medco started reimbursing the pharmacies over $2700 for the same drug last August.  At the same time, my copays have increased.  If Medco was looking out for the best interest of the State, it's 'client', they would use a lower negotiated price for meds just as BC/BS does for in-network providers.  In my opinion, the costs of meds is the biggest rip-off of all in health care.
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Offline Inchlingblue

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #74 on: August 18, 2009, 04:12:10 PM »
As a State employee, I have 'government-run' insurance, although it's administered by BC/BS.  The pharmacy part is handled by Medco.  I have had no problems with the insurance part at all either in terms of cost or quality of treatment.  The pharmacy benefit is what I have a big problem with.  Local drug stores charge around $1675 for a 30-day supply of Atripla.  Medco started reimbursing the pharmacies over $2700 for the same drug last August.  At the same time, my copays have increased.  If Medco was looking out for the best interest of the State, it's 'client', they would use a lower negotiated price for meds just as BC/BS does for in-network providers.  In my opinion, the costs of meds is the biggest rip-off of all in health care.

Even though you are a State employee, your state farms out the coverage to a private insurer, in the same way that most employers do; this is not the same as a government-run system, such as what Congress has, or what Medicare, Medicaid and the VA are.

My larger point is that many people against government-run health care love their Medicare, which is government-run. Many members of Congress are against single-payer or a public option but they sure do love their government-run health care coverage. 

Your coverage is paid by the state, because you are an employee of the state. It's not an example of "government-run" health care, it is comparable to having private coverage through one's employer.

« Last Edit: August 18, 2009, 04:14:44 PM by Inchlingblue »

Offline RapidRod

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #75 on: August 18, 2009, 04:40:46 PM »
I should add to the previous post re: the Democrats' history with health care that it was under President Johnson, a Democrat, that Medicare passed. At the time he advised Ted Kennedy, then a newbie in the Senate, that if congress knew how much it would cost they would not approve it so it would be best not to cost it out (those were the days).

As we know, Medicare is one of the most popular and beloved government-run programs in the country. Even at the town hall meetings you see people who claim to be against government-run health care making sure nobody touches their precious Medicare, God forbid. Isn't it ironic....dontcha think?

It seems government-run health care is good enough for all government employees, including every member of congress (who get it for life!) and it's good enough for all those on Medicare and Medicaid and it's good enough for all of those with VA benefits BUT it's not good enough for anyone else. Talk about twisted logic.
Talk to the people that are on Medicare and Part D. Talk to them about the Gap "Donut hole." and how much money they have to spend out of pocket before Part D begins picking back up.

Offline libvet

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #76 on: August 18, 2009, 05:08:25 PM »
Talk to the people that are on Medicare and Part D. Talk to them about the Gap "Donut hole." and how much money they have to spend out of pocket before Part D begins picking back up.

Remind me again who was responsible for that piece of legislation that protected pharma profits above the health and well-being of the elderly?


Offline Joe K

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #77 on: August 18, 2009, 05:17:19 PM »
Talk to the people that are on Medicare and Part D. Talk to them about the Gap "Donut hole." and how much money they have to spend out of pocket before Part D begins picking back up.
OK, now I'm starting to feel some heat. Mentioning the doughnut hole, the one created by Bush's back room deal with big pharma, has nothing to do with the subject at hand. It appears that Obama has fallen into the same trap, with his backroom deal with big pharma, but there is no reason not to address the areas where we can affect change. It is this misdirection of issues, that really pisses me off about political debates and I have this very sick feeling that once again, the Democrats will snatch defeat, from the jaws of victory.

Offline Inchlingblue

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #78 on: August 18, 2009, 06:02:28 PM »
Talk to the people that are on Medicare and Part D. Talk to them about the Gap "Donut hole." and how much money they have to spend out of pocket before Part D begins picking back up.

Part of the debate over heath care reform calls for addressing the donut hole in Medicare Part D.

Even with the Part D donut hole, which needs fixing, that doesn't mean Medicare overall is not a good system (tell that to those who have it who throw fits if they think it might be taken away). Medicare is an excellent system with very low overhead, much more streamlined and efficient than private insurers who spend a larger percentage of their costs on record-keeping, billing, etc., things Medicare does better.

And I might add, as libvet & killfoile have also mentioned, Part D was put in by your dear Republicans looking out for those pharmaceutical companies that give them so much money in campaign contributions.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2009, 06:05:18 PM by Inchlingblue »

Offline RapidRod

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #79 on: August 18, 2009, 06:15:17 PM »
Part of the debate over heath care reform calls for addressing the donut hole in Medicare Part D.

Even with the Part D donut hole, which needs fixing, that doesn't mean Medicare overall is not a good system (tell that to those who have it who throw fits if they think it might be taken away). Medicare is an excellent system with very low overhead, much more streamlined and efficient than private insurers who spend a larger percentage of their costs on record-keeping, billing, etc., things Medicare does better.

And I might add, as killfoile has also mentioned, Part D was put in by your dear Republicans looking out for those pharmaceutical companies that give them so much money in campaign contributions.
My Repblicans? I've never stated my politicial affaliation so don't assume it. I believe in an early post that I stated the WHOLE SYSTEM needs fixed. Which includes Medicare, Medicare Part D and Medicaid.

Offline Inchlingblue

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #80 on: August 18, 2009, 06:20:35 PM »
My Repblicans? I've never stated my politicial affaliation so don't assume it. I believe in an early post that I stated the WHOLE SYSTEM needs fixed. Which includes Medicare, Medicare Part D and Medicaid.

There was a thread on these forums not too long ago in which you staunchly defended George Bush and his policies. Forgive me for assuming you identify as a Republican! LOL

 
LINK:

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=26101.0
« Last Edit: August 18, 2009, 06:22:11 PM by Inchlingblue »

Offline bocker3

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #81 on: August 18, 2009, 07:29:52 PM »
The biggest problem with this debate is that it is the extremes that get all the attention -- no one is paying attention to the more reasonable "middle" folks.  You've got the right side basically saying, "I've got mine, leave it alone, if you don't have yours...  tough."  The you have the left side saying, "You have more than me -- so you OWE ME, therefore let's take from you."  Neither of these stances are helpful -- and the press should stop focusing all coverage on them.
As I stated earlier in this thread -- we have to be willing to approach this incrementally and thoughtfully.  It should not be rushed through, nor should "thoughtfully" be taken to mean years from now.  I see a single payer system as a needed final goal -- but we ain't getting there during Obama's first term, so let's see what we CAN get to and keep on building from there.  If it has to be "all or nothing" than I guarantee you that it will be nothing.
Our political system has completely fallen apart because the "compromise" has become a four-letter word.  Each side wants the other to "fail", rather than coming together to attack the issues that need fixing in this country -- this is what pisses me off more than anything.  Quite frankly, i do blame the media for heightening this (No, not the "liberal" media or the "right wing" media -- but the "for-profit" media).  bottomline is that we need someone (actually a whole Congress full of "someones") willing to do what is right even if it costs them the next election. 

Mike
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Offline libvet

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #82 on: August 18, 2009, 07:38:55 PM »
My Repblicans? I've never stated my politicial affaliation so don't assume it. I believe in an early post that I stated the WHOLE SYSTEM needs fixed. Which includes Medicare, Medicare Part D and Medicaid.

You know what would fix the WHOLE SYSTEM or at the very least fix the very real problem of having access to affordable health care in this country?  

Remove the insurance companies from the equation of primary care and place some common sense regulations with regards to health care (including the oft trotted out tort reform and DTC pharmaceutical advertising) and move to a single payer system.

While I know it goes against the grain of the self-styled free-market conservatives, there is no totally free market principle that is going to fix our health care system.

I also know that despite the plaintive cries of the greedy who are heavily invested in milking as much money off the top of your health care dollar as possible in order to pad their bank accounts and the deluded people who have been sold an unwashed Ayn Randian bill of goods and fearmongering ginned up by the former to convince people that a single payer system is the slippery slope to death panels and Soviet style communism, we are being outperformed in basic health care by every industrialized country in the world.

That is a simple statement of fact.  

I will never understand the mindset that puts insurance company profits above the health and well-being of the country and its populace.  

From my viewpoint, there is only a single word that comes to mind when people are being driven into bankruptcy and being told they have to become completely destitute to obtain necessary health care (i.e.  pay or die) or telling a person making barely enough money to put food on the table to open a health savings account, while the insurance companies are raking in profits and paying their executives tens of millions of dollars a year.

That word is evil.

The very same people who had no problem spending however much money it took to prosecute a war in the Middle East, notably Iraq, on the specious reasoning that the 3000 people died on 9/11, are the same people who are telling us we can't afford to do anything about a health care system that is wildly overpriced and leaves about 18000 people to die every year (that's the equivalent of FORTY 9/11's since that infamous day took place) and heaven only knows how many people have lost everything they had just to get the health care they needed.

It's pretty twisted sense of priorities that allows and cheers that kind of thinking.  

And don't get me wrong, I call myself a Democrat and I am disgusted that some in my own party would put profit ahead of the common good in this debate, as much as I am disgusted by the minority party that has whipped their loyalists into a mob mentality with their ridiculous "death panels" bullshit and playing up xenophobic nonsense that some illegal might get an emergency appendectomy or a bottle of aspirin with our tax dollars.

It's wrong and evil to put the profit of the insurance companies ahead of the health and lives of the American populace at large.  

In the long run, if simple human decency doesn't compel one to support fixing what's wrong without regard to the bank account of the CEO of for-profit insurance companies, then a more self-centered reason should compel you:  That person who delivers your paper, bags your groceries, makes your hamburger, stocks your shelves, will more likely to be driving up your health care cost because he or she ends up on disability or in the ICU on a ventilator for something they could have treated easily if the first words out of the doctor's office weren't "Can I see your insurance card?"



Offline Inchlingblue

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #83 on: August 18, 2009, 07:39:26 PM »
  I see a single payer system as a needed final goal -- but we ain't getting there during Obama's first term, so let's see what we CAN get to and keep on building from there.  

I think this is one of the fears of some of the people who don't want change, i.e. that any change would mean we are moving closer to a single payer system down the road. The so-called "slippery slope" argument. Ooooooh, scary!

I, for one, think single payer is a good thing (and thought so even before I had HIV so it's not because of the HIV). Some of these more vocal opponents to reform seem to think otherwise. Or at least have been brainwashed into thinking otherwise since some of these same people who say they are against single payer love other single payer systems such as the coverage Congress has and Medicare, Medicaid & the VA (all single payer systems).

I also know that despite the plaintive cries of the greedy who are heavily invested in milking as much money off the top of your health care dollar as possible in order to pad their bank accounts and the deluded people who have been sold an unwashed Ayn Randian bill of goods and fearmongering ginned up by the former to convince people that a single payer system is the slippery slope to death panels and Soviet style communism, we are being outperformed in basic health care by every industrialized country in the world.
 

Amen to that.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2009, 07:44:35 PM by Inchlingblue »

Offline RapidRod

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #84 on: August 18, 2009, 07:47:49 PM »
There was a thread on these forums not too long ago in which you staunchly defended George Bush and his policies. Forgive me for assuming you identify as a Republican! LOL

 
LINK:

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=26101.0
Which had nothing to do with this discussion. And he was not the cause of the The stock market collapsing. Now stick to the top of healthcare. 

Offline Inchlingblue

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #85 on: August 18, 2009, 07:50:59 PM »
Which had nothing to do with this discussion. And he was not the cause of the The stock market collapsing. Now stick to the top of healthcare. 

LOL  You're funny. ;)

Offline David_CA

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #86 on: August 18, 2009, 07:55:31 PM »
Unless I'm mistaken, NC is one of 19 states that use self-funded insurance for their employees' health coverage.  I believe that's why we say that it's 'administered' by BC/BS.  I don't mean to imply that the State covers every detail in house.  NC also has some independently run DMV offices.  DMV is still most definitely a State-run agency, but some of the smaller branches are contracted.  Our insurance may not be what you're referring to when you say 'government-run', but it is different from what most private employers use.

Even though you are a State employee, your state farms out the coverage to a private insurer, in the same way that most employers do; this is not the same as a government-run system, such as what Congress has, or what Medicare, Medicaid and the VA are.

My larger point is that many people against government-run health care love their Medicare, which is government-run. Many members of Congress are against single-payer or a public option but they sure do love their government-run health care coverage. 

Your coverage is paid by the state, because you are an employee of the state. It's not an example of "government-run" health care, it is comparable to having private coverage through one's employer.


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02-21-08 CD4 648 @32.4% VL 600
05-19-08 CD4 695 @33.1% VL < 48 undetectable!
08-21-08 CD4 725 @34.5%
11-11-08 CD4 672 @39.5%
02-11-09 CD4 773 @36.8%
05-11-09 CD4 615 @36.2%
08-19-09 CD4 770 @38.5%
11-19-09 CD4 944 @33.7%
02-17-10 CD4 678 @39.9%  
06-03-10 CD4 768 @34.9%
09-21-10 CD4 685 @40.3%
01-10-11 CD4 908 @36.3%
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Offline Inchlingblue

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #87 on: August 18, 2009, 08:26:50 PM »
I don't believe that's what's meant when the phrase "government-run" is used (which is synonymous with "single payer"). I guess it's not quite like a standard employer-paid system either.

I replied earlier because you seemed to be using it as an example of a "government-run" system in response to what I had said about Medicare, Medicaid and the VA, and it's really not an accurate comparison to make. The system you are describing is not strictly-speaking, a government-run (or single payer) system the way these others are. 
« Last Edit: August 18, 2009, 08:44:40 PM by Inchlingblue »

Offline David_CA

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #88 on: August 18, 2009, 09:13:51 PM »
Self-funded insurance seems like it would reduce the cost to insure by reducing a bit of the profit part of insurance / health care.  What we have is a PPO, though I don't think it really differs much from a standard policy.  I get good coverage for low co-pays.  I've had few issues with it at all except for Medco.  At any rate, it is possible to have a government-run (of some sort) 'insurance' policy that dictates payment levels to providers.  As the largest employer in NC, the State negotiates really good prices for services while minimally hindering selection of providers, treatment, etc.



I don't believe that's what's meant when the phrase "government-run" is used (which is synonymous with "single payer"). I guess it's not quite like a standard employer-paid system either.

I replied earlier because you seemed to be using it as an example of a "government-run" system in response to what I had said about Medicare, Medicaid and the VA, and it's really not an accurate comparison to make. The system you are describing is not strictly-speaking, a government-run (or single payer) system the way these others are. 
Black Friday 03-03-2006
03-23-06 CD4 359 @27.4% VL 75,938
06-01-06 CD4 462 @24.3% VL > 100,000
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10-21-06 CD4 285 @21.9% VL >  "
  Atripla started 12-01-2006
01-08-07 CD4 429 @26.8% VL 1872!
05-08-07 CD4 478 @28.1% VL 740
08-03-07 CD4 509 @31.8% VL 370
11-06-07 CD4 570 @30.0% VL 140
02-21-08 CD4 648 @32.4% VL 600
05-19-08 CD4 695 @33.1% VL < 48 undetectable!
08-21-08 CD4 725 @34.5%
11-11-08 CD4 672 @39.5%
02-11-09 CD4 773 @36.8%
05-11-09 CD4 615 @36.2%
08-19-09 CD4 770 @38.5%
11-19-09 CD4 944 @33.7%
02-17-10 CD4 678 @39.9%  
06-03-10 CD4 768 @34.9%
09-21-10 CD4 685 @40.3%
01-10-11 CD4 908 @36.3%
05-23-11 CD4 846 @36.8% VL 80
02-13-12 CD4 911 @41.4% VL<20
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Offline bocker3

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #89 on: August 18, 2009, 10:24:43 PM »
I don't believe that's what's meant when the phrase "government-run" is used (which is synonymous with "single payer"). I guess it's not quite like a standard employer-paid system either.

I replied earlier because you seemed to be using it as an example of a "government-run" system in response to what I had said about Medicare, Medicaid and the VA, and it's really not an accurate comparison to make. The system you are describing is not strictly-speaking, a government-run (or single payer) system the way these others are. 

I actually think this is sort of 'splitting hairs' -- and where it would be good for folks to step into what the other side is saying vs. defending what they say (I'm speaking about this in the larger sense -- not specifically about this exchange).  Medicare, Medicaid and the VA are pretty much as "single-payer" as David's example or any self-funded private employer.  What I mean by that is -- one entity is paying -- i.e. the state of NC taxpayers.  In fact, Medicaid is a combination of Fed and State, if I remember correctly, so it's not "single" in the strictest of sense.  It seems to me that when people say "single-payer", they don't mean it in any piecemeal way, rather ALL healthcare is paid by the same entity.
However -- the point here is not to nitpick (even though it may seem that way), rather it is to point out that this whole debate goes no where if folks aren't willing to fully consider other side.

Mike
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Offline Inchlingblue

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #90 on: August 19, 2009, 01:51:10 AM »
Sorting out the terms and all the options when it comes to health care in the US can get convoluted (single payer, socialized medicine, universal health care, PPO, HMO, managed care, FSA, HRA, HSA, HDHP, etc etc).

That's part of the problem whenever health care reform, to quote Palin on Putin, rears its ugly head.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2009, 02:09:48 AM by Inchlingblue »

Offline skeebo1969

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #91 on: August 19, 2009, 03:02:49 AM »



  Had a long reply all typed up and something about this laptop ain't right and I erased it all. 

  Oh well.....

  Interesting thread guys....
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Offline randym431

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #92 on: August 19, 2009, 08:20:52 AM »
This is great... Barney Frank's town hall.
And THIS is what supporters are up against.
So simple... This lady is exactly the type that listen to
everything Rush Limbaugh, and Fox News says.
Rush and Fox know well these people are idiots,
they count on it... actually.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYlZiWK2Iy8&feature=player_embedded

But looking back at medicare, which is a government ran, it was democrats and good old
president LBJ that got this thru. And today, now, Seniors embrace medicare.
Yet some rant against a government "option" proposed now... I'm bewildered...
Its too bad LBJ got caught up in that war, because he did do a lot of good for every day
American's i.e. SS, medicare and civil rights.

And it strikes me... if civil rights were an issue today, where blacks today had no voting rights,
you know damm well most republicans would be against granting civil rights.
If for no other reason, to score points against democrats.
And Rush Limbaugh would be happy to take up the talking points against civil rights.

I guess I'm saying, there is a right way and a wrong way to do things in this country.
Thank God we did things the right way back in the 1960's with LBJ.

Offline skeebo1969

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #93 on: August 19, 2009, 08:33:39 AM »
  Its too bad LBJ got caught up in that war, because he did do a lot of good for every day
American's i.e. SS, medicare and civil rights.

And it strikes me... if civil rights were an issue today, where blacks today had no voting rights,
you know damm well most republicans would be against granting civil rights.
If for no other reason, to score points against democrats.
And Rush Limbaugh would be happy to take up the talking points against civil rights.

I guess I'm saying, there is a right way and a wrong way to do things in this country.
Thank God we did things the right way back in the 1960's with LBJ.

  He never got the credit he truly deserved.....  sorry just had to throw that out there.  Back to the subject.
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Offline Denver Toad

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #94 on: August 19, 2009, 11:29:09 AM »
 Out of curiosity today I looked up the first time the U.S. Government got involved in public health. It was far earlier than I would have guessed.

July 16th, 1798 * - John Adams signed signed "an Act for the relief of sick and disabled Seamen,"creating the Marine Hospital Service, the predecessor to Public Health Service.

The National Institutes of Health traces it roots to 1887, when a one-room laboratory ws created with the Marine Hospital Service.

They went on to create cures for Colera, Yellow Fever, Typhus and Diptheria.

More than eighty Nobel prizes have been awarded for NIH-supported research.

Here is a link giving the Historical Highlights of the Dept of Health and Human Services -

http://www.hhs.gov/about/hhshist.html

But, DON'T click on it, because it contains FACTS. We can't have facts confusing a political discussion.

* The Constitution was ratified in July 1789 - So the U.S. Government went 4 long months without being involved in Public Health Care.
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Offline AlanBama

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #95 on: August 19, 2009, 11:53:23 AM »
I will never understand the mindset that puts insurance company profits above the health and well-being of the country and its populace.   

From my viewpoint, there is only a single word that comes to mind when people are being driven into bankruptcy and being told they have to become completely destitute to obtain necessary health care (i.e.  pay or die) or telling a person making barely enough money to put food on the table to open a health savings account, while the insurance companies are raking in profits and paying their executives tens of millions of dollars a year.

That word is evil.


As usual, I agree with everything Libvet has posted.   I don't understand it either, my friend.  They are so afraid some tax dollars might be spent for an (dare I say the word?) abortion, that they would rather have the status quo in the health care system.   It just makes me sick, literally.

Maybe they could appease the republicans by saying "ok we won't use any money for abortions, but instead we will use that money to buy the drugs that are injected to someone on death row as lethal injection execution".   (another thing I've never figured out:  how they can be so DEAD SET against abortion of any kind, but all for the death penalty).   >:(
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Offline pos2007

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #96 on: August 19, 2009, 10:39:35 PM »
From  what i  have seen  the several  times  universal  healthcare   has been  brought  up  (  Kennedy,  Nixon,  H.  Clinton,  &   now  Obama),   it  is  always  tightwad selfish,  self centered  people  that  do not  want  to  share  the cost  or  privilege of  healthcare with  those of  us  who  can't  afford  it.   I have  HIV,  My   wife  has  HIV,  I     have  cancer;  no  health  insurance  company  will  insure  my  wife  and  she  has been through several  hospitalizations plus  the  cost  of  HIV.   My  insurance  premiums were  just raised as  of  yesterday  from $910.00   to  $994.00  and  I  have  to  continually  fight  for  coverage.     Hepatas a/b  vaccination  costs $45.00 per  shot  (  series  of 3) at   our  county  health  clinic but  I  have  to  pay  the  entire  cost  myself.   Insurance  will   not  pay  for  it.   The  same  shot  costs $385.00,  plus a $150.00  doctor  fee,   plus a $45.00 for   giving  the  shot at  my  doctor,   but  the  insurance  will  pay  for  2  of  the   series  of  three.   That  is a screwed  up system! It  is  only  by  the grace  of  God  that  the  people that scream,  No,   that  that  they  do  not  want  to  share  their  healthcare with  the  rest  of  us are not  sick   and  need  help.  If  they  spent  one  week trying to get  a thieving  insurance  company  to  cover their  bills,   or  a week  trying to get  care for a dying spouse,  they  would  change  their  tune.  It  is  nothing  more  than  orchestrated protests  along  the  same  lines as  the  NRA.   >:(
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Offline pinkadam

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #97 on: August 19, 2009, 10:48:24 PM »
This is great... Barney Frank's town hall.
And THIS is what supporters are up against.
So simple... This lady is exactly the type that listen to
everything Rush Limbaugh, and Fox News says.
Rush and Fox know well these people are idiots,
they count on it... actually.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYlZiWK2Iy8&feature=player_embedded

But looking back at medicare, which is a government ran, it was democrats and good old
president LBJ that got this thru. And today, now, Seniors embrace medicare.
Yet some rant against a government "option" proposed now... I'm bewildered...
Its too bad LBJ got caught up in that war, because he did do a lot of good for every day
American's i.e. SS, medicare and civil rights.

And it strikes me... if civil rights were an issue today, where blacks today had no voting rights,
you know damm well most republicans would be against granting civil rights.
If for no other reason, to score points against democrats.
And Rush Limbaugh would be happy to take up the talking points against civil rights.

I guess I'm saying, there is a right way and a wrong way to do things in this country.
Thank God we did things the right way back in the 1960's with LBJ.


It so sad to a young woman talking trash in a town hall meeting in MA. Is she getting paid for what she is doing or she is a member of KKK.I may understand if that was a uneducated middle age woman who lives in small town and listen to fox news whose news readers are bunch of bigots and racists

Offline bobino

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #98 on: August 21, 2009, 11:51:01 PM »

I see you exempted the 4 trillion dollar deficient that Obama has gotten the US into. Bailout to banks with taxpayer money and forgot to notice that they didn't put stipulations on that money and top excs. still got their multimillion dollar bonuses after their banks failed and didn't keep track of where the money was going. Electronic record keeping. LOL They can't keep hackers out of the government computers. Eventhough where I get my medical service it has been on electric record keeping for years though they have just started the electronic prescriptions.


Sorry Rod, but please spare us these Fox-style attempts to blame Obama for the deficit.  If you're interested in some facts on this point, I suggest you take a look at this article and the sources it links to.

http://blogs.tnr.com/tnr/blogs/the_plank/archive/2009/06/11/the-truth-about-obama-and-the-deficit.aspx

Here's the money quote, if you'll pardon the pun:

Quote
Leonhardt looked at the budget from 2009 through 2012, and tried to figure out what had changed in those years since 2001. He found that the business cycle accounted for 37% of the higher red ink. More than half came from legislation signed by President Bush. Seven percent came from Obama's stimulus bill, and only three percent from his regular budget.

And please try to remember that the bailouts were enacted under Bush at the insistence of Henry Paulson.
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Offline Ann

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #99 on: August 22, 2009, 12:01:06 AM »

And please try to remember that the bailouts were enacted under Bush at the insistence of Henry Paulson.


Oh come on, mate! What do facts have to do with the subject at hand?
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