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Author Topic: Universal healthcare in US  (Read 16586 times)

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Offline pinkadam

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Universal healthcare in US
« on: August 15, 2009, 12:39:44 PM »
Hello Friends

I would like your opinion on Obama's Universal health care. How does it impact people like us(HIV).I see all these town hall debates where people are furious about this health care bill.
Does this bill impact particular race ?  I see protestors to be predominantly white.

I am not trying to offend any one. This is just for opinion. Please refrain from posting arrogant comments

Thx
Pink

Offline Cliff

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #1 on: August 15, 2009, 12:52:31 PM »
I'm a bit out of the loop and wouldn't mind some specifics on the bill.  But a plan that extends health coverage to people who currently don't have access to quality health care, would be a step in the right direction.  Starting to address the spirilaing health costs rather than continuing to ignore it, also seems to be a step in the right direction.

The health care debate does make (at times) headlines here (UK), especially when UK politicians say something about the NHS that Republicans then take and use for political purposes. 

Offline Giblarry

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #2 on: August 15, 2009, 01:05:59 PM »
Hello Friends

I would like your opinion on Obama's Universal health care. How does it impact people like us(HIV).I see all these town hall debates where people are furious about this health care bill.
Does this bill impact particular race ?  I see protestors to be predominantly white.

I am not trying to offend any one. This is just for opinion. Please refrain from posting arrogant comments

Thx
Pink

You pose very good questions, Pink.  

All the yelling and screaming is exactly what you and I are experiencing - confusion and fear.  I think there is a point to that, though I'd like to see everyone calm down and discuss this rationally.  In our slave heritage society, no minority dares speak like fat white people.  That could be life threatening.  

The problem, as I see it, is that the final bill doesn't exist.  Rather, it's several bills and each of them seem to owe their souls to special interests.  No one, not even the president, knows what the final bill will look like.

I believe, however, that this health care reform will initially hurt HIVers and elders.  My hope is that it will level out over time.  We'll see.  And, yes, there is racial disparity in our present health care system, which skews in favor of whites/hetero's and against minorities.  

Single payer, like they have in the UK, is the best answer, I think.  The hype that their system is dysfunctional is just that - hype.  I have many British friends.  They may bitch about NHS, but they love it and take umbrage if anyone else bitches about it.  In general, a NHS would be the 'fairest to the most' system, that would include us, elders and racial minorities.  Though it might add some taxation, it would still be less expensive than the current, insurance company dominated, system we now don't enjoy.  

Gib

Offline sharkdiver

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #3 on: August 15, 2009, 01:25:11 PM »
What you are seeing is a lot media hype.


Offline bocker3

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #4 on: August 15, 2009, 01:46:05 PM »
It's difficult to give opinions on a bill that doesn't exist in final form, so I won't.  Rather, I'll say that everyone needs to be realistic in their expectations.  If anyone thinks that we will stay where we are, they are mistaken -- but if anyone thinks that we are going to have a bill that gets coverage for every single American and/or a single payer system, they are mistaken. 
Ultimately, I think health care reform is going to be a long, incremental process.  I suspect that we should be able to see the following in this first pass:
- an end to pre-existing condition clauses
- some plan (don't ask me what -- I don't know yet) that will allow folks to purchase insurance who don't have the ability to do so thru an employer and can't afford an individual policy.

In my opinion, if this is all that gets passed in the first go around -- it's a giant step in the right direction.

Would I like us to get to the "end state" immediately -- sure, but it ain't gonna happen.  We all have to be realistic and look for middle ground -- the far right and far left agendas are simply unacceptable at this point in time (and maybe ever).

That is my 2 cents.

Mike
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Offline bear60

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #5 on: August 15, 2009, 01:50:16 PM »
Its time for universal health care...NOW
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Offline Inchlingblue

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #6 on: August 15, 2009, 01:59:19 PM »
There are conservative organizations such as FreedomWorks, with their own agenda, that are mobilizing the protesters at the Town Halls. They are basically rounding up people who hate Obama no matter what he does as well as others who they are feeding lies and misinformation to (such as saying that health care reform will include "death panels" where the government decides when you should die, etc.) These people are being organized, given "talking points" and then literally bussed in to the Town Hall meetings. These disruptions are keeping other individuals out who may want to participate with legitimate questions.  

These are not legitimate grassroots protests from individuals who have real questions, these are organized events from conservative anti-Obama groups that have their own political agenda, not in the best interest of the public at large.

Bottom line: the protests at the Town Hall events are not to be taken seriously nor should they reflect in any way, for or against, on any proposed health care reform.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2009, 02:33:02 PM by Inchlingblue »

Offline skeebo1969

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #7 on: August 15, 2009, 02:25:29 PM »


These are not legitimate grassroots protests from individuals who have real questions, these are organized events from conservative anti-Obama groups that have their own political agenda, not in the best interest of the public at large.

Bottom line: the protests at the Town Hall events are not to be taken seriously nor should they reflect in any way, for or against, on any proposed health care reform.

  I hate to say it, but in my opinion you are right. What we have right now is definitely not working and it kind of pisses me off when I see people yelling at each other on the news like a bunch of kids on the playground fighting over a swing.  There is only one way we will find out if it works and that would be to implement it.....  I have private health insurance and even with that my family and I are sinking in debt just over our regular checkups and doctor visits.  I don't know how much universal health care will help my situation but I am still open to anything that is a change from what we have now.
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Offline Inchlingblue

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #8 on: August 15, 2009, 02:31:33 PM »
At one of the Town Hall events a couple of weeks ago one of the "protesters" was injured and he has no health insurance! He was then seeking donations to help pay for his doctor & hospital bills. This from someone against health reform!

Also recently an editorial opposing health care reform said: People such as scientist Stephen Hawking wouldn't have a chance in the UK, where the National Health Service would say the life of this brilliant man, because of his physical handicaps, is essentially worthless.

This makes no sense since Stephen Hawking IS in the UK and has received excellent life-saving health care FOR FREE in the UK.

Hawking had to put out a statement: I wouldn't be here today if it were not for the NHS. I have received a large amount of high-quality treatment without which I would not have survived.


LINK:

http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/posted/archive/2009/08/12/stephen-hawking-defends-british-health-care-system-against-u-s-conservatives.aspx
« Last Edit: August 15, 2009, 04:08:48 PM by Inchlingblue »

Offline mecch

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #9 on: August 15, 2009, 03:05:44 PM »
Rachel Maddow says the conservative anger you see in the media about health care is a combination of ignorance, anger, stupidity - it is displaced fear and anger from people frustrated about a lot of things.
You are correct that it is a sea of white faces on either side of the issue.
I do think that perhaps there is racism involved in those being against universal care. They keep bringing up the question about covering immigrants, and also children of illegal aliens, etc. etc. 
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline GNYC09

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #10 on: August 15, 2009, 03:41:44 PM »
I am pro-universal healthcare in the U.S.  And I think that those against it--many of whom say they don't want to shoulder somebody else's bills--should be equally as passionate about fighting obesity, well-person checkups, exercising, etc in the U.S.  That would be a great way to reduce healthcare costs and improve quality of life in the U.S.

(p.s.= I have had private insurance most of my life but was hospitalized and uninsured at one point in between jobs.  I had to hire an attorney and he told me that hospitals charge the uninsured at least 3x more than they accept from the insured).
« Last Edit: August 15, 2009, 03:44:52 PM by GNYC09 »

Offline PeteNYNJ

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #11 on: August 15, 2009, 05:36:09 PM »
I will have to say, I am a fan of NHS.  I have had to use emergency services offered by NHS, once in London and once in Virgin Gorda (BVI).  In Virgin Gorda I tripped while carrying a bunch of bottles from the beach and one severed my forearm leaving a huge gash.  I was rushed to the clinic, received stitches and painkillers and sent on my way.  I didn't have to pay a dime.   

In London, I was assaulted and hit in the head with a beer bottle causing a gash over my eye requiring stitches.  I received stitches after a bit of a wait but my injury wasn't life threatening.  Again, no bill.

If this happened to someone visiting from outside the US while in the US, the bill would have been quite large.  You would also have to wait.  I have waited hours in American ERs and I have excellent insurance. 

It is time for some kind of reform where every citizen could receive affordable insurance provided by the govt if they want/need it.  I don't think the conversation ever mentions taking away the option for those who want to keep private insurance from doing so. 

Just my two cents

Pete

Offline Inchlingblue

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #12 on: August 15, 2009, 06:08:08 PM »
  I had to hire an attorney and he told me that hospitals charge the uninsured at least 3x more than they accept from the insured).

Oh yeah...I know someone who was hospitalized for three days and the bill was $15,000. but the hospital charged his insurance $3,000. If he had not had insurance he would have been billed $15k not $3k. Huge difference.

I think it's because the insurance companies are big clients of the hospitals and they can negotiate prices but it should not be legal.

That's one thing that's not brought up enough. When you hear about uninsured people going bankrupt owing, say, $100k to a hospital; if they had insurance the insurance would probably be billed one-third, if that.

Offline bocker3

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #13 on: August 15, 2009, 06:58:53 PM »
I think it's because the insurance companies are big clients of the hospitals and they can negotiate prices but it should not be legal.

Then I guess the gov't shouldn't set reimbursement rates either, like it does for Medicare?

While I agree that charging the uninsured more than the insured seems crazy -- making negotiating illegal isn't likely to lower costs across the board, now is it??  My guess is that the insurance companies can demand lower prices because they are able to "guarantee" a large number of patients to the hospital -- or drug store, etc.
Again, I'm not defending the practice, only pointing out that making it illegal will likely have consequences that you don't really want either.

Mike
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Offline Assurbanipal

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #14 on: August 15, 2009, 08:08:16 PM »
There is no final bill yet, but there are bills in the House and general agreement on a number of principles that will help people with HIV.

These include:
- insurers would have to cover all people who applied whether or not they had an existing  health problem.  And they would have to charge people of similar ages similar rates.  This would be very helpful to people with HIV that currently have coverage with an employer and feel "locked into" their current job.  It would also give better options to people with HIV who lose a job

- coverage would be expanded to try to reach all citizens, with subsidies for lower income people.  It is likely this will be done through an expansion of Medicaid, although there will be some debate over how much of the price tag for the subsidies gets picked up by the States vs. the federal government (the federal government and the States share the cost of Medicaid).  This will be particularly valuable  to lower income gay men, since Medicaid does not currently require that low income single adults be covered by each State.  (And under DOMA, same sex marriages are not recognized)

But there are risks for us as well, particularly in figuring out how programs like Ryan White and ADAP will fit into the new system.  We saw this before when prescription drugs were added to Medicare and it screwed up ADAP access for some people.  We need our activist organizations such as NAPWA to monitor and model how existing programs will fit into the new whole to avoid problems like the Medicare Part D/ADAP mess as the bills take shape. 

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Offline mecch

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #15 on: August 15, 2009, 08:18:43 PM »
Basically, who is going to tell the doctors, insurance companies, drug companies, medical industry, they will from now on make less money?  Everyone thinks it is so f*cking complex and it isn't.
Anyway, I think ANY attention to the problem is good, and even if there is a sucky "reform", it will be better than nothing. Which is what many Americans get now.  And if they trash the pre-existing condition bullcrap, and the process where they research your history when you get really sick, and then cancel your policy. 

Basically, nobody wants to tell the richest Americans that enough is enough. Banking. Medical. Whatever.

Maybe America is too exceptional, and can never reform and be a proper 1st world country giving ALL its citizens the full benefits of being so rich, per capita.
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline pinkadam

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #16 on: August 15, 2009, 10:58:44 PM »
Healthcare system in this country is full of flaws.

I never understand why hospitals, Doctors and Pharma companies charge so much money from the people with no insurance. Why not everybody pays the same ???? Why are they making it a business

Every time my insurance company sends me EOB (Explanation of benefits) after my Drs. visit i always be surprised. Total bill will be around 1000 USD but they only paid 100USD to the doctor. So basically insurance company is saying they saved me 900USD.
Same goes with prescription medication. When i try to buy it directly from pharmacy the price will be in the sky. I am sure insurance company is not paying the same what we will be charged in the retail market.

System is so messed up and they are always looking for suckers.I heard several stories how people became poor just because of hospital bills.

I hate to blame Health insurance companies as they are not real culprits. I feel the culprits are Hospitals and Pharma companies.

Sorry for my rants !!!!!




Offline RapidRod

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #17 on: August 16, 2009, 11:36:34 AM »
Basically, who is going to tell the doctors, insurance companies, drug companies, medical industry, they will from now on make less money?  Everyone thinks it is so f*cking complex and it isn't.
Anyway, I think ANY attention to the problem is good, and even if there is a sucky "reform", it will be better than nothing. Which is what many Americans get now.  And if they trash the pre-existing condition bullcrap, and the process where they research your history when you get really sick, and then cancel your policy. 

Basically, nobody wants to tell the richest Americans that enough is enough. Banking. Medical. Whatever.

Maybe America is too exceptional, and can never reform and be a proper 1st world country giving ALL its citizens the full benefits of being so rich, per capita.
It's not conplex? You read it. http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=111_cong_bills&docid=f:h3200ih.txt.pdf

Offline randym431

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #18 on: August 16, 2009, 12:10:02 PM »
This answer is very simple.

First of all...
 Just the elimination of "pre existing condition denial",
as is the practice now with company/private insurance, would be a huge
advancement. As you can guess, insurance companies love healthy people and hate sick people.
They love their premiums coming in, but rather keep those payouts limited to
CEO's and stock holders. And in building their fancy high rise glass and gold buildings.

Second…
All those white people at the rally’s get all their news from Fox News, the Rush Limbaugh's and the Sarah Palin's. That’s all they do, tune the TV and radio to these right wing nut job shows and take it in as their bible. Ronald Reagan made them fear government. Fox news made them fear Obama. And then toss in the mix total off the wall crap from Rush and Sarah, and you have the formula for outraged white folks, ...once again... ranting and voting against their own best interest.
It is truly the sad part of America.

And too, with the republicans loss of power in the last elections, republicans
have turned this from a “just” debate on healthcare reform, to simply trying
to take down the Obama administration.
Republicans feel, and believe, that if they can kill reform, they can gain power
back. That is the whole ballgame, for them.
They care not about you or healthcare. Why should they? The congress already
Has their government healthcare plans. And Rush Limbaugh signed his last radio contract
For 20 million salary. Rush owns a home on the Florida coast. Rush will never need
Affordable healthcare.

This is not about you. It is all about scoring points, and killing reform to gain
Power. And the press, naturally, is not helping bringing people the truths.
All CNN and the networks are, are extensions of tabloid news.
And within all this insanity, the citizens lose. The status quo continues.
And insurance companies, like CIGNA, use their existing death panels
To denial healthcare to the sick, and protect their profits.

What I don’t get is why a lot of these opponents and companies are
Not tossed in jail as traitors to the US government. Because that is just what they are.

Offline RapidRod

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #19 on: August 16, 2009, 01:19:46 PM »
Excuse me. How can you blame it on anyone when you have both sides of the isle going against the bill. You have just as many dems as you do reps against it.

Offline mecch

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #20 on: August 16, 2009, 03:27:30 PM »
RapidRod,
The bill may be complex, but the intent is not.  Obama published a pretty simple objective today in the NYT.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/16/opinion/16obama.html?_r=1&ref=global-home

Notice it is no longer Health Care Reform but Health Insurance Reform.

He's pragmatic, that's for sure!  Hope we all get something.
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline RapidRod

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #21 on: August 16, 2009, 04:36:11 PM »
RapidRod,
The bill may be complex, but the intent is not.  Obama published a pretty simple objective today in the NYT.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/16/opinion/16obama.html?_r=1&ref=global-home

Notice it is no longer Health Care Reform but Health Insurance Reform.

He's pragmatic, that's for sure!  Hope we all get something.
Notice he had to try to change it because he's lost his backing. He's not changing a thing. He does not have the executive powers to change anything. It's both Houses of Congress that write the bills.

Offline newt

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #22 on: August 16, 2009, 05:31:17 PM »
I find this an interesting debate

Setting aside the "socialist/commie" commentaries that have been flying around, it's a question of economics. Healthcare is expensive and a command economy, much like having a decent army etc. I watch with interest to see if it's winnable.

In the end its a moral and economic question.

Do you want ill, dying people on the streets of your cities? Do you want to defend the nation against slow, painful deaths of its citizens? Is that American? What does the "life, liberty and pursuit of happiness" bit in the Constition mean?

The economics is compelling really. The UK spends half what the US does per person but has better health outcomes. Okay my tax bill is HUGE but my care is free if I need it. As is my defence.

Okay, the "hotel services" and privacy in the UK health system are crap, but we don't have people wandering around, I mean people who worked n paid out, with treatable conditions for the most part.

I wonder how much State authorities pay out for emergency care when paying for routine chronic care would be cheaper?

Plus the US needs to get the pharma and healthcare providers priucing under control. We have and they still turn a decent profit.

I reckon it's an impossible national reform tho (as a distant observer), and therefore slides the second term...I hope not. Not so much loss of the second term, but no universal access to healthcare. It may be unwinnable at a national level. But state by state, perhaps it is. 

- matt
"The object is to be a well patient, not a good patient"

Offline pinkadam

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #23 on: August 16, 2009, 06:30:21 PM »
Health care is necessary for every one and it is every citizens duty to pay for it. Why not Govt tax every individual like the way they tax us for sales tax , income tax. There should be healthcare tax and be done with it.


Offline RapidRod

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #24 on: August 16, 2009, 07:12:22 PM »
Health care is necessary for every one and it is every citizens duty to pay for it. Why not Govt tax every individual like the way they tax us for sales tax , income tax. There should be healthcare tax and be done with it.


Social Security is broke. Medicare is broke and Medicaid is broke. Let's fix what is broke first.

Offline bobino

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #25 on: August 16, 2009, 09:08:30 PM »
Social Security is broke. Medicare is broke and Medicaid is broke. Let's fix what is broke first.

Actually, Social Security is not broke.  According to current projections, funds available to pay anticipated benefits will not be sufficient to meet 100% of promised benefits in the year 2042.  That does not mean that if you are a Social Security beneficiary in 2042 that you won't get some benefits.  It means that, unless action is taken to correct the problem before then, you won't get all of your promised benefits.  Since Social Security is funded through a payroll tax, it cannot technically go broke so long as that tax is collected. 

Obviously, to ensure that there is no shortfall, some source of additional revenue will have to be found or benefits will have to be curtailed.  Much could be done simply by repealing Bush's tax cuts and returning tax rates to where they were before 1986.  The country can fund Social Security and Medicare.  It's just a question of political will.  Countries that are far less wealthy than ours manage to have both universal health care and financial assistance for the elderly so that they don't live in poverty.  We can certainly do the same.
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Offline bufguy

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #26 on: August 16, 2009, 10:21:34 PM »
First of all the federal government has been raiding the SSI contributions for federal spending.

Second I think it is unconsionable that the US is the ONLY developed country without guaranteed health insurance. It should be a right not a priveledge.

Dick Armey, former house majority leader and a huge opponent of healrth care reform was on Meet the Press and stated that Medicare and Social Security should be optional. These are the lunatics leading the opposition. The average right wing, blue collar citizen would be destitute without SSI and Medicare......They are just plain stupid sheep being led to slaughter.
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Offline gregftl

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #27 on: August 17, 2009, 12:45:40 AM »
All those screamers at the town halls are just posers for the health care industry and the extreme right wing nut jobs. They showed on CNN a week ago the script these people were given to follow when they went to the town halls and how to disrupt them.

Offline Inchlingblue

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #28 on: August 17, 2009, 12:47:17 AM »
You have just as many dems as you do reps against it.

LOL  What?

Can you be more specific? Maybe back this up with more information because as far as I know that statement is not correct.

There are some moderate Democrats not on board but not "just as many" as there are Republicans noton board.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2009, 12:56:05 AM by Inchlingblue »

Offline Tempeboy

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #29 on: August 17, 2009, 02:25:02 AM »
As an outside observer I find this conversation interesting (with respect).

Are insurance companies in the US also legally able to own stakes in hospitals or pharmaceutical companies?  If so are they obliged to declare - and would co-ownership represent a conflict of interest?
Could this account for the discrepencies in fees and charges?
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Offline Tempeboy

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #30 on: August 17, 2009, 02:31:26 AM »
I find this an interesting debate

The economics is compelling really. The UK spends half what the US does per person but has better health outcomes. Okay my tax bill is HUGE but my care is free if I need it.

- matt


Good point Matt,

How much income tax does the average person pay in the UK?  In Australia it's about 30cents in the dollar - but all health care and meds are free (small copayment) - and so are many other things.  Health outcomes are pretty good here also - and a healthy population is a happier population that has more opportunities for work and education (also heavily subsidised).

We also have the option of going private - and people can choose to take out insurance - which is tax deductable.
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Offline Cliff

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #31 on: August 17, 2009, 03:21:35 AM »
UK's lowest rate is 10%, middle rate is 20%, upper rate is 40%.  You pay national insurance on top of that, but I forget how much it is (maybe 7 or 8% or so).  The tax burden is higher than in the US (particularly since you don't as many deductions/exemptions), but it's not excessive by any means.  I think people exaggerate how low taxes are in the US and how high they are in the UK.

I have private health-care (employer pays for it), but I have never used it.  The NHS is great.  Whether or not health-care should be completely free at the point of service is up for debate.  But what shouldn't be is that everyone should have access to quality, affordable health-care (and those who don't have the means to pay for it should be subsidised).  

I can understand why some people (especially those with great employer-paid insurance schemes) are hesitant on health care reform.  What I don't understand is why anyone with government-paid health care is trying to kill universal health-care in the US.  It's as if you're saying that since you're sorted (at taxpayer's expense), you're perfectly willing to screw everyone else.

Offline RapidRod

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #32 on: August 17, 2009, 04:02:28 AM »
LOL  What?

Can you be more specific? Maybe back this up with more information because as far as I know that statement is not correct.

There are some moderate Democrats not on board but not "just as many" as there are Republicans noton board.
Had there been enough Dems to vote before the recess they would have voted a bill through that none of them have read. Just like the stimulus package. Remember the stimulous package that was to prevent the unemployment rate from going over 8%.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2009, 04:07:13 AM by RapidRod »

Offline Dachshund

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #33 on: August 17, 2009, 07:52:49 AM »
Excuse me. How can you blame it on anyone when you have both sides of the isle going against the bill. You have just as many dems as you do reps against it.

At this point, all that stands in the way of universal health care in America are the greed of the medical-industrial complex, the lies of the right-wing propaganda machine, and the gullibility of voters who believe those lies.

Offline LordBerners

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #34 on: August 17, 2009, 09:35:33 AM »
Social Security is broke. Medicare is broke and Medicaid is broke. Let's fix what is broke first.

Right-wing propaganda there, RR.  All those things are fine, but if by 'fix' you mean raise taxes to better fund them, then I wholeheartedly support it!

At this point, all that stands in the way of universal health care in America are the greed of the medical-industrial complex, the lies of the right-wing propaganda machine, and the gullibility of voters who believe those lies.

In other words, in surmountable odds, I'm afraid, Dachshund.  Don't hold your breath.  The medical mafia has had a firm control of this racket for generations, and I see no sign of it ending soon.
Please, just call me Berners.. or Baron.

Offline lforsyth

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #35 on: August 17, 2009, 09:45:57 AM »
I only hope that something happens.  My employer took away Insurance benefits for retired employees back in the late 90's before a merger with another company.  I just turned 60 and myself and others where I work are only staying around because we can't afford insurance at today's prices.  As an employee my copay is $10 and med's are $15 and $5 for generic.

It does seem like the medical and drug groups don't want to lose their power and the excess profit's they currently receive at the expense of the everyday joe who's paying the bill's.
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Offline RapidRod

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #36 on: August 17, 2009, 10:02:49 AM »
Right-wing propaganda there, RR.  All those things are fine, but if by 'fix' you mean raise taxes to better fund them, then I wholeheartedly support it!

In other words, in surmountable odds, I'm afraid, Dachshund.  Don't hold your breath.  The medical mafia has had a firm control of this racket for generations, and I see no sign of it ending soon.
  It's will have to take a raise on everyone’s taxes to pay for the Healthcare Plan that has been purposed.

Offline LordBerners

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #37 on: August 17, 2009, 10:06:57 AM »
  It's will have to take a raise on everyone’s taxes to pay for the Healthcare Plan that has been purposed.

Sounds great to me (though that's unsurprising given my destitution).  But even for those of you who do have income to be taxed, surely no tax increase could be worse than trying to get health coverage 'privately' with hiv/aids?
Please, just call me Berners.. or Baron.

Offline Inchlingblue

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #38 on: August 17, 2009, 10:55:27 AM »
Had there been enough Dems to vote before the recess they would have voted a bill through that none of them have read. Just like the stimulus package. Remember the stimulous package that was to prevent the unemployment rate from going over 8%.

Well that's not the same as saying that there are "just as many" Democrats against it!@ Far from it.

Offline RapidRod

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #39 on: August 17, 2009, 11:12:06 AM »
Well that's not the same as saying that there are "just as many" Democrats against it!@ Far from it.
Now it wouldn't have passed would it? Murtha has just stated he doesn't see it coming up before a vote until next year.

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2009/08/14/murtha-differs-from-obama-on-health-care-timeline/
« Last Edit: August 17, 2009, 11:16:53 AM by RapidRod »

Offline Dachshund

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #40 on: August 17, 2009, 07:10:38 PM »
  It's will have to take a raise on everyone’s taxes to pay for the Healthcare Plan that has been purposed.

Wrong again. The only proposed tax hike would be on those making $250,000 or more. They would also pay for it by cutting waste and fraud in Medicaid. Watch your back. :D

Offline RapidRod

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #41 on: August 17, 2009, 08:14:33 PM »
Wrong again. The only proposed tax hike would be on those making $250,000 or more. They would also pay for it by cutting waste and fraud in Medicaid. Watch your back. :D
The only proposed tax hike.   :D Keep dreaming. Watch my back?  :D I would go on ADAP like YOU...

Online Joe K

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #42 on: August 17, 2009, 09:10:52 PM »
Until you get enough Americans to believe that health care is a right for all citizens, this crap will just keep happening.  I'm sitting on the sidelines in Canada and what is going on is very apparent from here.  The Democrats have a lofty goal, but rather than explain what their plan is, they have gone in all different directions, cutting deals here, dropping conditions adverse to some special interest group, etc.  Now they act surprised that so many people are against the plan, when there is no plan.  There doesn't even seem to be consensus that health care costs need to be controlled.  The Democrats better start explaining with some detail that the average citizen can understand and support.

Of course you still have the Republicans, who are so pissed they lost the election and they don't care what Obama wants to do, because all they care about is making him fail.  And the thought of some black man telling all those old fart white men what to do, scares the crap right out of them.  What a pathetic excuse for a political party.  But once again, the quest for greed will most probably doom our country to another decade or so of the same old bullshit.

Both parties should be ashamed that they have failed the American public so miserably.

Offline Ann

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #43 on: August 17, 2009, 10:24:51 PM »

I'm sitting on the sidelines in Canada....


Joe, just be thankful you are. I gave it up long ago. Remember the Serenity Prayer. I do, otherwise, I'd go nuts.

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Offline Dachshund

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #44 on: August 18, 2009, 06:18:46 AM »
The only proposed tax hike.   :D Keep dreaming. Watch my back?  :D I would go on ADAP like YOU...

Maybe you missed it because it didn't scroll across the bottom of Fox TV, but 95% of working Americans received a tax cut provided by the stimulus.

It's amazing that when you chime in on healthcare and how it's going to raise our taxes, you never disclose the healthcare coverage you're lucky enough to have. Government run, tax payer supported, Medicaid. The purest form of socialism America has to offer. Single payer coverage that I believe every tax paying American has a right to, including you. You would pledge allegiance to Marx and Lenin if you thought it would save your healthcare coverage. That's the irony of it all. Grumpy grannies and you shouting "Obama is a socialist, keep your hands off my Medicaid." I would think you guys would be burning your Medicaid cards in protest.

I guess you don't bother to read the healthcare/insurance horror stories posted around here. Maybe you do and you just don't care? At least when you post your narrow right wing philosophy about healthcare, do it with candor.


Until you drop out of Medicaid and seek healthcare through the private sector, the best you can offer on the healthcare debate is an apology or silence.

Offline randym431

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #45 on: August 18, 2009, 08:58:54 AM »
First:
Quote
It's will have to take a raise on everyone’s taxes to pay for the Healthcare Plan that has been purposed

Yes... with a single payer plan, 100% government, you'd pay taxes instead of premiums like we do now for employer insurance. And there would be no "opting out" for young workers that feel they don't need to take part in company insurance... That is... Until they end up in the ER, or worse.
And just who do you think pays for that? YOU and ME. How is that for a kick in the billfold.
If everyone took part in a government plan, where the government owned/ran the hospitals and clinics, all paid for thru taxes, we would each of us, pay a lot less than we do now per person for employer insurance..
And I kinda think THAT would solve a lot of the Medicare issues.
Like the government ran VA facilities.
Just try to take away the VA benefits from a vet... and see what happens.
But single payer is not in any pending healthcare bills. I wonder why?

And second... Dick Armey and his founded group do not want to make SS and Medicare optional...
They want to kill and destroy them totally.

Remember... SS, Medicare and VA are all government ran programs. They work very well.
It was Bush in his drug bill, that took away Medicare's ability to lower prices on drugs.
That is just one reason Medicare has issues. Thanks GW.

One more thing. CIGNA, BLUE CROSS and others have spent billions to fight reform.
A lot of this went to Senator Grassley, and the others, to pay them to kill reform.
When this is all over, and if healthcare reform fails or they remove the government
option, then what do you think CIGNA will do?
They are ALL going to raise premiums thru the roof like you have never seen,
to recoup their expenses to kill reform. And drop a huge number of their currently insured.  The plans are already on the table. It will soon come to the point where
few employed working will be able to afford employer insurance.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2009, 07:56:27 AM by randym431 »

Offline RapidRod

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #46 on: August 18, 2009, 09:19:52 AM »
Maybe you missed it because it didn't scroll across the bottom of Fox TV, but 95% of working Americans received a tax cut provided by the stimulus.

It's amazing that when you chime in on healthcare and how it's going to raise our taxes, you never disclose the healthcare coverage you're lucky enough to have. Government run, tax payer supported, Medicaid. The purest form of socialism America has to offer. Single payer coverage that I believe every tax paying American has a right to, including you. You would pledge allegiance to Marx and Lenin if you thought it would save your healthcare coverage. That's the irony of it all. Grumpy grannies and you shouting "Obama is a socialist, keep your hands off my Medicaid." I would think you guys would be burning your Medicaid cards in protest.

I guess you don't bother to read the healthcare/insurance horror stories posted around here. Maybe you do and you just don't care? At least when you post your narrow right wing philosophy about healthcare, do it with candor.


Until you drop out of Medicaid and seek healthcare through the private sector, the best you can offer on the healthcare debate is an apology or silence.

Offline RapidRod

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #47 on: August 18, 2009, 09:30:44 AM »
Maybe you missed it because it didn't scroll across the bottom of Fox TV, but 95% of working Americans received a tax cut provided by the stimulus.

It's amazing that when you chime in on healthcare and how it's going to raise our taxes, you never disclose the healthcare coverage you're lucky enough to have. Government run, tax payer supported, Medicaid. The purest form of socialism America has to offer. Single payer coverage that I believe every tax paying American has a right to, including you. You would pledge allegiance to Marx and Lenin if you thought it would save your healthcare coverage. That's the irony of it all. Grumpy grannies and you shouting "Obama is a socialist, keep your hands off my Medicaid." I would think you guys would be burning your Medicaid cards in protest.

I guess you don't bother to read the healthcare/insurance horror stories posted around here. Maybe you do and you just don't care? At least when you post your narrow right wing philosophy about healthcare, do it with candor.


Until you drop out of Medicaid and seek healthcare through the private sector, the best you can offer on the healthcare debate is an apology or silence.
Like normal you speak and don't have any idea what you are talking about let alone anyone else's life on this forum. And for your information, that stimulus check you received was not TAX free. You have to declare it on your gross income or will you? :D

Offline Dachshund

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #48 on: August 18, 2009, 09:42:27 AM »
Like normal you speak and don't have any idea what you are talking about let alone anyone else's life on this forum. And for your information, that stimulus check you received was not TAX free. You have to declare it on your gross income or will you? :D

Simple question. While bashing universal healthcare for others, do you receive government controlled, tax payer supported Medicaid? You're on record saying that you do.

Check your pay stub Rod and you'll see a payroll tax decrease.

Offline Denver Toad

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #49 on: August 18, 2009, 09:44:35 AM »
Health care may not be a right, but it's the right thing to do.

The argument that "I don't want to pay for someone elses health care" is not only laughable, but utterly ignorant. The tremendous cost burden of covering the uninsured, underinsured, and the economic impact of medically-based bankruptcies is already being cost-shifted to the people who have insurance and who pay taxes. From an economics standpoint, this is by far THE most expensive and inefficient health care that money can buy, and to continue this extremely poor investment is what the conservatives want.

No wonder we are spending more per capita on health care, and getting less for it, than any other country on earth with that kind of mentality.
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Offline RapidRod

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #50 on: August 18, 2009, 09:45:59 AM »
Simple question. While bashing universal healthcare for others, do you receive government controlled, tax payer supported Medicaid? You're on record saying that you do.

Check your pay stub Rod and you'll see a payroll tax decrease.
Like I said above you don't know what you are talking about. You don't have a clue but that is a normal trait now isn't it? :D

Offline Dachshund

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #51 on: August 18, 2009, 10:00:20 AM »
Like I said above you don't know what you are talking about. You don't have a clue but that is a normal trait now isn't it? :D

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=28128.msg347183#msg347183

Do I receive Medicaid the answer is yes.

                                        ~RapidRod

Offline RapidRod

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #52 on: August 18, 2009, 10:25:31 AM »
Quote from: David_NC on July 16, 2009, 10:57:25 pm
Rod, out of curiosity, what, if anything, would YOU like to see change with our healthcare system?  What would your suggestions be to 'fix' it?


Quote
The whole system needs fixed, but not by rushing into it like they did the stimulus package and the tarp funds. They have no idea how they are going to pay for it and rushing in to force it to be voted on before the August recess is ridiculous. There is no such thing as taxing the rich.  You’ve heard the old saying shit rolls down hill and that is what would happen. You believe, those rich people got into their status by being stupid? They are going to recoup their losses by increasing the prices of their goods and who ends up paying?  Your middle class that are taxed to death now, and those small businesses that employee most of the work force in the US will end up closing their doors and the unemployment rate will sky rocket. Remember it wasn’t that long ago they said without the stimulus package unemployment would go over 8%, well guess what, with the stimulus package unemployment has went over 8%. You can’t fix this system over night like they are trying to do.  Now David what are YOUR suggestions in fixing the system? Is there anything that our govenment haven't stuck their hands into that didn't turn into a mess?

Online Joe K

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #53 on: August 18, 2009, 10:35:44 AM »
Joe, just be thankful you are. I gave it up long ago. Remember the Serenity Prayer. I do, otherwise, I'd go nuts.
Ann

Far from nuts, I am intrigued in watching this all play out and I just cannot understand why so many Americans are buying this load of crap from conservatives.  These are the same people that drove the country into the ground, the past eight years and why any intelligent person would even CARE what they think is beyond me.

What I find most confusing however, is you Rod.  You receive fully funded, government controlled Medicaid, yet you oppose universal health care for others.  How can you possibly take that stance with a clear conscience?  Why are you, or anyone, worthy of full coverage, when other Americans are not?  Our founding documents guarantee life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness and to me, that implies health care for all Americans, not just those who currently have it.  Please help me to understand how your supporting the defeat of health care reform, while dooming 50 million Americans without health insurance, is the American thing to do?

Offline RapidRod

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #54 on: August 18, 2009, 10:41:08 AM »
Far from nuts, I am intrigued in watching this all play out and I just cannot understand why so many Americans are buying this load of crap from conservatives.  These are the same people that drove the country into the ground, the past eight years and why any intelligent person would even CARE what they think is beyond me.

What I find most confusing however, is you Rod.  You receive fully funded, government controlled Medicaid, yet you oppose universal health care for others.  How can you possibly take that stance with a clear conscience?  Why are you, or anyone, worthy of full coverage, when other Americans are not?  Our founding documents guarantee life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness and to me, that implies health care for all Americans, not just those who currently have it.  Please help me to understand how your supporting the defeat of health care reform, while dooming 50 million Americans without health insurance, is the American thing to do?
Joe, I guess you've been gone so long getting your free Canadian health care that you haven't been following the discussion. No where have you read that I was against Universal Healthcare. Had you read the discussion that David and I had you would have read that I said the whole system needs fixed. But, it doesn't need rushed.. Read the above reply to David..

Online Joe K

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #55 on: August 18, 2009, 11:18:02 AM »
Joe, I guess you've been gone so long getting your free Canadian health care that you haven't been following the discussion. No where have you read that I was against Universal Healthcare. Had you read the discussion that David and I had you would have read that I said the whole system needs fixed. But, it doesn't need rushed.. Read the above reply to David..

If you want to discuss the topic fine, but please do not insult my intelligence, nor Canada's by implying that Canadian health care is free.  Due to my income, I pay no income taxes, nor property taxes, however, I do pay the combined government/provincial taxes of 13.5% on everything I buy.  The only real difference in the health care we both receive, is that I get mine for a lot less money.

That being said, I still don't understand why you oppose health care reform.  Yes, they seem to be rushing it, but they don't have to enact anything, until they sort it all out.  What I see as important is to get the commitment, in law, to address the spiraling cost of health care.  How can you support waiting another five or ten years for some type of reform?  What exactly are you so afraid of happening, that reform can wait, yet again?  Granted the deficit sucks, but the Republicans gave Obama a trillion dollar one, for his inauguration and America will have to deal with that, but not on the back of the uninsured.

I remained confused by all these town hall meetings, with people screaming crazy things like "death panels", I mean really WTF???  You say you don't want them to rush, but what you are advocating is they do nothing and I just cannot see that as an option.  You cite the stimulus as not working, because unemployment went over 8%, but without it, what might the inflation rate be now?  12 - 13% probably.  Given what it would cost for unemployment insurance for those extra people and the fact that a job lost is very hard to regain and I would say that the stimulus was a cheap way to avert further financial decay.

I remain a pragmatist and while I understand the need to properly reform health care, at some point you have to take the first step and if we don't do it now, when will we?

Offline Dachshund

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #56 on: August 18, 2009, 11:21:10 AM »
Joe, I guess you've been gone so long getting your free Canadian health care that you haven't been following the discussion. No where have you read that I was against Universal Healthcare. Had you read the discussion that David and I had you would have read that I said the whole system needs fixed. But, it doesn't need rushed.. Read the above reply to David..

Try as you might I can't let you continue to obfuscate the facts. Canada does not have free health care. They have a single payer tax supported system. The rich got their status thanks to the Bush tax cut for the wealthy and you're right the shit rolled right out of the pockets of the middle class. As for your lame unemployment statistics, you do fail to mention that the number of unemployed has continued to decrease. Way down from the 750,000 a month that were losing their jobs under Bush. It's amazing how conservatives just erase the debacle that was the Bush years, dumped on Obama's economic doorstep. I could waste my breath trying to explain to you how this would be paid for or point out that Obama has said he would veto any health care bill that isn't deficit neutral. Why bother?


As for going too fast. A little history lesson for you. Truman was the first President to propose universal health care, followed by Carter and then Clinton. Each in turn defeated by powerful corporate self interest.
 Joe makes a very valid point. Why would you be against a system that provides your very existence?
« Last Edit: August 18, 2009, 11:22:54 AM by Dachshund »

Offline Dachshund

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #57 on: August 18, 2009, 11:34:08 AM »
How to pay for it.

Repeal the Bush tax cut-you know the one that took us from surplus to deficit in one year.

Eliminate waste and fraud in Medicare/Medicaid.

Switch to electronic record keeping.

Kill Grandma.

Offline RapidRod

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #58 on: August 18, 2009, 11:47:58 AM »
Blame it on the Republicans? How many Dems have we had in office since Truman? 5 since Truman if anyone is counting and not one has fixed the Healthcare system. This didn't happen over night and rushing it through without reading the bill and bring it up before committees would have been a complete failure. I'm not against Health Care reform and had you read what I said to David that the WHOLE SYSTEM needs FIXED is beyond me where you find it that I was against Health Care Reform. Asking that it be done in a proper fashion does NOT mean I'm against fixing the Health Care system. I worked from age 16-49 and yes I PAID my taxes and I have only received help for the last 4 years so don't slam me for getting help that I paiid into.

Offline RapidRod

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #59 on: August 18, 2009, 12:02:53 PM »
How to pay for it.

Repeal the Bush tax cut-you know the one that took us from surplus to deficit in one year.

Eliminate waste and fraud in Medicare/Medicaid.

Switch to electronic record keeping.

Kill Grandma.

I see you exempted the 4 trillion dollar deficient that Obama has gotten the US into. Bailout to banks with taxpayer money and forgot to notice that they didn't put stipulations on that money and top excs. still got their multimillion dollar bonuses after their banks failed and didn't keep track of where the money was going. Electronic record keeping. LOL They can't keep hackers out of the government computers. Eventhough where I get my medical service it has been on electric record keeping for years though they have just started the electronic prescriptions.

Offline Dachshund

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #60 on: August 18, 2009, 12:09:02 PM »
I worked from age 16-49 and yes I PAID my taxes and I have only received help for the last 4 years so don't slam me for getting help that I paiid into.

Which is what every other taxpayer deserves. Nothing more, nothing less.

Offline RapidRod

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #61 on: August 18, 2009, 12:27:48 PM »
Which is what every other taxpayer deserves. Nothing more, nothing less.
No one is denying that. But lets do it right the first time instead of trying to rush it through when no one has had time to read the bill. Obama admitted in one of his own town meetings that he hasn't read it. Let them all read it and discuss it. Then put it on the ballot for the taxpayers to vote on. It's "We the People" not "We the Congress."

Offline Inchlingblue

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #62 on: August 18, 2009, 12:34:40 PM »
Blame it on the Republicans? How many Dems have we had in office since Truman? 5 since Truman if anyone is counting and not one has fixed the Healthcare system.  

But they have all TRIED (and been thwarted by the Republicans), unlike the Republicans who have not even made an effort!

Offline Dachshund

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #63 on: August 18, 2009, 12:36:32 PM »
No one is denying that. But lets do it right the first time instead of trying to rush it through when no one has had time to read the bill. Obama admitted in one of his own town meetings that he hasn't read it. Let them all read it and discuss it. Then put it on the ballot for the taxpayers to vote on. It's "We the People" not "We the Congress."

We did vote on it, in November when we elected the Congress who represent the people. I leave this debate with you because I think I can feel my brain shrinking. At least I got you to admit we all deserve healthcare. I'll let you chase your tail on the other stuff. :D

Online Joe K

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #64 on: August 18, 2009, 12:37:04 PM »
I don't understand how blaming Obama, for the stimulus bills that are necessary, to clean up the mess the Republicans left is fair.  Whether they could have been done better or whatever, is of little consequence now as we are talking about health care reform.  I repeat my question.  If Congress does not mandate some form of public option for health care insurance, where is the incentive going to come from, to reign in insurance costs?  If they take the public option away, the insurance companies will reap a bonanza.  A government mandate to be insured, with only the for profit companies holding all the cards.  All they have to give up is refusing coverage for preexisting conditions and life time caps on benefits, in return for millions of new young, HEALTHY insureds, that will have their insurance premiums subsidized by the government.  What a total scam on Americans.

If Congress won't act, or just passes some inferior legislation, all Americans should be outraged.  Sadly, too many Americans seem intent on ignoring the plight of 50 million Americans without health insurance.  I cannot understand how any true American could do such a thing.  I do not use the word American lightly, because with all our faults, America still represents one of the greatest countries on the planet.  Given our history, how we have developed by becoming that "melting pot" of humanity and grown, yet we remain so short sighted.  Any American would be appalled by a terrorist attack on other Americans, yet can oppose responsible legislation for universal health care.

In a perfect world, given this challenge, I would expect America to develop American Health Care and maybe we could find a way to do it, without compromising the very founding ideals of this country.  The fact that universal health care is still beyond reach, because of intimidation and misinformation is really sad.  Especially from a country that I know, could do so much better.  To me, this is the greatest loss of all.

Offline RapidRod

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #65 on: August 18, 2009, 12:41:30 PM »
Responsible legislation? When they were going to be forced to vote on it before the August recess without reading the bill. Get real. Would you sign a contract without reading it?

Offline Ann

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #66 on: August 18, 2009, 12:46:01 PM »

Far from nuts, I am intrigued in watching this all play out and I just cannot understand why so many Americans are buying this load of crap from conservatives.  These are the same people that drove the country into the ground, the past eight years and why any intelligent person would even CARE what they think is beyond me.


I have to admit I also find it intriguing. It's a bit like watching a train-wreck - I really don't want to look but I can't help myself.

I find it all very frustrating. As someone who has lived under both the American and the UK health-care systems, I know which I'd rather have. I might pay more taxes* over here, but I don't have to worry about paying huge co-pays and premiums and I don't have to worry about being dumped by my health insurance company because I have an incurable illness. It's a comfort to know that no matter what other uncertainties hiv may throw at me, I'll still have health-care. QUALITY health-care. Health-care I've funded through taxes when employed and still do through VAT (value added tax, akin to sales tax) every time I buy non-food items.

*(incidentally, cigarettes cost twice here what they cost in the States - they're heavily taxed and much of that tax money goes into funding the NHS. Sweetly ironic, no?) 

Joe, my mention of the Serenity Prayer reflects my sense of futility. I can't do anything about the debate in the US from this side of the pond. I have to keep the whole thing at arm's length because otherwise, it would just get me too worked up and too depressed. I can't believe the lies politicians are telling and the lies the public are swallowing and regurgitating as gospel. It's horrifying.

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Online Joe K

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #67 on: August 18, 2009, 12:55:07 PM »
I agree that the deadline was a political move and ill advised, but my question remains.  There are real feasible options being discussed by both parties, but everybody is so busy, pissing on each others shoes, that most probably health care reform will be defeated once again.  I don't see anybody proposing a framework, within which we can begin to control health care costs, that puts all the real options on the table, not just those proposed by big business. When big business wins, the public interest loses, always has, always will.

What the discussion should be centered on is how to address health care reform and then make it happen. All this posturing is to wear everybody down and cave in to the special interests, who will just pass on their costs, at defeating health care reform, in the form of higher premiums and prices. I'm confused on how so many Americans are buying the lies and deceit of both parties and not demanding that Congress gets something done and done now. I'm advocating for the reform, not any political party as they both have their own issues.

This is not about Congress, it is about 50 million Americans without health insurance. It is about halting a health care cost cancer, that if left untreated, will bankrupt this country, period.  Those are the issues at stake here and they are huge.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2009, 01:00:12 PM by killfoile »

Offline Cliff

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #68 on: August 18, 2009, 01:00:48 PM »
Rod is flaming the discussion and you guys step into it everytime.  It's not a geniune discussion.  There are way too many twists, turns and jumbled logic for it to be geniune.

Offline RapidRod

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #69 on: August 18, 2009, 01:08:45 PM »
Rod is flaming the discussion and you guys step into it everytime.  It's not a geniune discussion.  There are way too many twists, turns and jumbled logic for it to be geniune.
I beg your pardon Cliff..

Offline Ann

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #70 on: August 18, 2009, 01:21:56 PM »
I just want to say that I'm very happy so far that although there are disagreements amongst posters to this thread, no one has thus far made personal attacks. Fantastic!

Let's keep it this way. By all means debate the issue, disagree with the opinion or action, but don't attack the person. I hate it when I have to come into a thread like this to give out warnings, and it feels good to be able to say "well done, keep up the good work" for once. :)

Ann
« Last Edit: August 18, 2009, 01:23:46 PM by Ann »
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Online Joe K

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #71 on: August 18, 2009, 01:32:24 PM »
Rod is flaming the discussion and you guys step into it everytime.  It's not a geniune discussion.  There are way too many twists, turns and jumbled logic for it to be geniune.
Rod is not flaming me about anything, as I believe we both share the desire for real health care reform that is done in both a reasonable and feasible manner.  To me, that is a great step, because while we may disagree on how to attain the goal, at least we share the same goal.  That fact is my entire point on my confusion with Americans resisting health care cost reform. Ignoring the reality is blatantly in our own worse interest, yet there are millions of both Medicaid and Medicare recipients complaining about giving health insurance to all Americans.  Again, WTF?

It's really sad that so many Americans can be so cold, against the least of us.

Offline Inchlingblue

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #72 on: August 18, 2009, 03:08:12 PM »
I should add to the previous post re: the Democrats' history with health care that it was under President Johnson, a Democrat, that Medicare passed. At the time he advised Ted Kennedy, then a newbie in the Senate, that if congress knew how much it would cost they would not approve it so it would be best not to cost it out (those were the days).

As we know, Medicare is one of the most popular and beloved government-run programs in the country. Even at the town hall meetings you see people who claim to be against government-run health care making sure nobody touches their precious Medicare, God forbid. Isn't it ironic....dontcha think?

It seems government-run health care is good enough for all government employees, including every member of congress (who get it for life!) and it's good enough for all those on Medicare and Medicaid and it's good enough for all of those with VA benefits BUT it's not good enough for anyone else. Talk about twisted logic.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2009, 03:29:53 PM by Inchlingblue »

Offline David_CA

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #73 on: August 18, 2009, 03:49:01 PM »
It seems government-run health care is good enough for all government employees, including every member of congress (who get it for life!) and it's good enough for all those on Medicare and Medicaid and it's good enough for all of those with VA benefits BUT it's not good enough for anyone else. Talk about twisted logic.

As a State employee, I have 'government-run' insurance, although it's administered by BC/BS.  The pharmacy part is handled by Medco.  I have had no problems with the insurance part at all either in terms of cost or quality of treatment.  The pharmacy benefit is what I have a big problem with.  Local drug stores charge around $1675 for a 30-day supply of Atripla.  Medco started reimbursing the pharmacies over $2700 for the same drug last August.  At the same time, my copays have increased.  If Medco was looking out for the best interest of the State, it's 'client', they would use a lower negotiated price for meds just as BC/BS does for in-network providers.  In my opinion, the costs of meds is the biggest rip-off of all in health care.
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Offline Inchlingblue

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #74 on: August 18, 2009, 04:12:10 PM »
As a State employee, I have 'government-run' insurance, although it's administered by BC/BS.  The pharmacy part is handled by Medco.  I have had no problems with the insurance part at all either in terms of cost or quality of treatment.  The pharmacy benefit is what I have a big problem with.  Local drug stores charge around $1675 for a 30-day supply of Atripla.  Medco started reimbursing the pharmacies over $2700 for the same drug last August.  At the same time, my copays have increased.  If Medco was looking out for the best interest of the State, it's 'client', they would use a lower negotiated price for meds just as BC/BS does for in-network providers.  In my opinion, the costs of meds is the biggest rip-off of all in health care.

Even though you are a State employee, your state farms out the coverage to a private insurer, in the same way that most employers do; this is not the same as a government-run system, such as what Congress has, or what Medicare, Medicaid and the VA are.

My larger point is that many people against government-run health care love their Medicare, which is government-run. Many members of Congress are against single-payer or a public option but they sure do love their government-run health care coverage. 

Your coverage is paid by the state, because you are an employee of the state. It's not an example of "government-run" health care, it is comparable to having private coverage through one's employer.

« Last Edit: August 18, 2009, 04:14:44 PM by Inchlingblue »

Offline RapidRod

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #75 on: August 18, 2009, 04:40:46 PM »
I should add to the previous post re: the Democrats' history with health care that it was under President Johnson, a Democrat, that Medicare passed. At the time he advised Ted Kennedy, then a newbie in the Senate, that if congress knew how much it would cost they would not approve it so it would be best not to cost it out (those were the days).

As we know, Medicare is one of the most popular and beloved government-run programs in the country. Even at the town hall meetings you see people who claim to be against government-run health care making sure nobody touches their precious Medicare, God forbid. Isn't it ironic....dontcha think?

It seems government-run health care is good enough for all government employees, including every member of congress (who get it for life!) and it's good enough for all those on Medicare and Medicaid and it's good enough for all of those with VA benefits BUT it's not good enough for anyone else. Talk about twisted logic.
Talk to the people that are on Medicare and Part D. Talk to them about the Gap "Donut hole." and how much money they have to spend out of pocket before Part D begins picking back up.

Offline libvet

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #76 on: August 18, 2009, 05:08:25 PM »
Talk to the people that are on Medicare and Part D. Talk to them about the Gap "Donut hole." and how much money they have to spend out of pocket before Part D begins picking back up.

Remind me again who was responsible for that piece of legislation that protected pharma profits above the health and well-being of the elderly?


Online Joe K

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #77 on: August 18, 2009, 05:17:19 PM »
Talk to the people that are on Medicare and Part D. Talk to them about the Gap "Donut hole." and how much money they have to spend out of pocket before Part D begins picking back up.
OK, now I'm starting to feel some heat. Mentioning the doughnut hole, the one created by Bush's back room deal with big pharma, has nothing to do with the subject at hand. It appears that Obama has fallen into the same trap, with his backroom deal with big pharma, but there is no reason not to address the areas where we can affect change. It is this misdirection of issues, that really pisses me off about political debates and I have this very sick feeling that once again, the Democrats will snatch defeat, from the jaws of victory.

Offline Inchlingblue

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #78 on: August 18, 2009, 06:02:28 PM »
Talk to the people that are on Medicare and Part D. Talk to them about the Gap "Donut hole." and how much money they have to spend out of pocket before Part D begins picking back up.

Part of the debate over heath care reform calls for addressing the donut hole in Medicare Part D.

Even with the Part D donut hole, which needs fixing, that doesn't mean Medicare overall is not a good system (tell that to those who have it who throw fits if they think it might be taken away). Medicare is an excellent system with very low overhead, much more streamlined and efficient than private insurers who spend a larger percentage of their costs on record-keeping, billing, etc., things Medicare does better.

And I might add, as libvet & killfoile have also mentioned, Part D was put in by your dear Republicans looking out for those pharmaceutical companies that give them so much money in campaign contributions.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2009, 06:05:18 PM by Inchlingblue »

Offline RapidRod

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #79 on: August 18, 2009, 06:15:17 PM »
Part of the debate over heath care reform calls for addressing the donut hole in Medicare Part D.

Even with the Part D donut hole, which needs fixing, that doesn't mean Medicare overall is not a good system (tell that to those who have it who throw fits if they think it might be taken away). Medicare is an excellent system with very low overhead, much more streamlined and efficient than private insurers who spend a larger percentage of their costs on record-keeping, billing, etc., things Medicare does better.

And I might add, as killfoile has also mentioned, Part D was put in by your dear Republicans looking out for those pharmaceutical companies that give them so much money in campaign contributions.
My Repblicans? I've never stated my politicial affaliation so don't assume it. I believe in an early post that I stated the WHOLE SYSTEM needs fixed. Which includes Medicare, Medicare Part D and Medicaid.

Offline Inchlingblue

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #80 on: August 18, 2009, 06:20:35 PM »
My Repblicans? I've never stated my politicial affaliation so don't assume it. I believe in an early post that I stated the WHOLE SYSTEM needs fixed. Which includes Medicare, Medicare Part D and Medicaid.

There was a thread on these forums not too long ago in which you staunchly defended George Bush and his policies. Forgive me for assuming you identify as a Republican! LOL

 
LINK:

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=26101.0
« Last Edit: August 18, 2009, 06:22:11 PM by Inchlingblue »

Offline bocker3

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #81 on: August 18, 2009, 07:29:52 PM »
The biggest problem with this debate is that it is the extremes that get all the attention -- no one is paying attention to the more reasonable "middle" folks.  You've got the right side basically saying, "I've got mine, leave it alone, if you don't have yours...  tough."  The you have the left side saying, "You have more than me -- so you OWE ME, therefore let's take from you."  Neither of these stances are helpful -- and the press should stop focusing all coverage on them.
As I stated earlier in this thread -- we have to be willing to approach this incrementally and thoughtfully.  It should not be rushed through, nor should "thoughtfully" be taken to mean years from now.  I see a single payer system as a needed final goal -- but we ain't getting there during Obama's first term, so let's see what we CAN get to and keep on building from there.  If it has to be "all or nothing" than I guarantee you that it will be nothing.
Our political system has completely fallen apart because the "compromise" has become a four-letter word.  Each side wants the other to "fail", rather than coming together to attack the issues that need fixing in this country -- this is what pisses me off more than anything.  Quite frankly, i do blame the media for heightening this (No, not the "liberal" media or the "right wing" media -- but the "for-profit" media).  bottomline is that we need someone (actually a whole Congress full of "someones") willing to do what is right even if it costs them the next election. 

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Offline libvet

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #82 on: August 18, 2009, 07:38:55 PM »
My Repblicans? I've never stated my politicial affaliation so don't assume it. I believe in an early post that I stated the WHOLE SYSTEM needs fixed. Which includes Medicare, Medicare Part D and Medicaid.

You know what would fix the WHOLE SYSTEM or at the very least fix the very real problem of having access to affordable health care in this country?  

Remove the insurance companies from the equation of primary care and place some common sense regulations with regards to health care (including the oft trotted out tort reform and DTC pharmaceutical advertising) and move to a single payer system.

While I know it goes against the grain of the self-styled free-market conservatives, there is no totally free market principle that is going to fix our health care system.

I also know that despite the plaintive cries of the greedy who are heavily invested in milking as much money off the top of your health care dollar as possible in order to pad their bank accounts and the deluded people who have been sold an unwashed Ayn Randian bill of goods and fearmongering ginned up by the former to convince people that a single payer system is the slippery slope to death panels and Soviet style communism, we are being outperformed in basic health care by every industrialized country in the world.

That is a simple statement of fact.  

I will never understand the mindset that puts insurance company profits above the health and well-being of the country and its populace.  

From my viewpoint, there is only a single word that comes to mind when people are being driven into bankruptcy and being told they have to become completely destitute to obtain necessary health care (i.e.  pay or die) or telling a person making barely enough money to put food on the table to open a health savings account, while the insurance companies are raking in profits and paying their executives tens of millions of dollars a year.

That word is evil.

The very same people who had no problem spending however much money it took to prosecute a war in the Middle East, notably Iraq, on the specious reasoning that the 3000 people died on 9/11, are the same people who are telling us we can't afford to do anything about a health care system that is wildly overpriced and leaves about 18000 people to die every year (that's the equivalent of FORTY 9/11's since that infamous day took place) and heaven only knows how many people have lost everything they had just to get the health care they needed.

It's pretty twisted sense of priorities that allows and cheers that kind of thinking.  

And don't get me wrong, I call myself a Democrat and I am disgusted that some in my own party would put profit ahead of the common good in this debate, as much as I am disgusted by the minority party that has whipped their loyalists into a mob mentality with their ridiculous "death panels" bullshit and playing up xenophobic nonsense that some illegal might get an emergency appendectomy or a bottle of aspirin with our tax dollars.

It's wrong and evil to put the profit of the insurance companies ahead of the health and lives of the American populace at large.  

In the long run, if simple human decency doesn't compel one to support fixing what's wrong without regard to the bank account of the CEO of for-profit insurance companies, then a more self-centered reason should compel you:  That person who delivers your paper, bags your groceries, makes your hamburger, stocks your shelves, will more likely to be driving up your health care cost because he or she ends up on disability or in the ICU on a ventilator for something they could have treated easily if the first words out of the doctor's office weren't "Can I see your insurance card?"



Offline Inchlingblue

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #83 on: August 18, 2009, 07:39:26 PM »
  I see a single payer system as a needed final goal -- but we ain't getting there during Obama's first term, so let's see what we CAN get to and keep on building from there.  

I think this is one of the fears of some of the people who don't want change, i.e. that any change would mean we are moving closer to a single payer system down the road. The so-called "slippery slope" argument. Ooooooh, scary!

I, for one, think single payer is a good thing (and thought so even before I had HIV so it's not because of the HIV). Some of these more vocal opponents to reform seem to think otherwise. Or at least have been brainwashed into thinking otherwise since some of these same people who say they are against single payer love other single payer systems such as the coverage Congress has and Medicare, Medicaid & the VA (all single payer systems).

I also know that despite the plaintive cries of the greedy who are heavily invested in milking as much money off the top of your health care dollar as possible in order to pad their bank accounts and the deluded people who have been sold an unwashed Ayn Randian bill of goods and fearmongering ginned up by the former to convince people that a single payer system is the slippery slope to death panels and Soviet style communism, we are being outperformed in basic health care by every industrialized country in the world.
 

Amen to that.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2009, 07:44:35 PM by Inchlingblue »

Offline RapidRod

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #84 on: August 18, 2009, 07:47:49 PM »
There was a thread on these forums not too long ago in which you staunchly defended George Bush and his policies. Forgive me for assuming you identify as a Republican! LOL

 
LINK:

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=26101.0
Which had nothing to do with this discussion. And he was not the cause of the The stock market collapsing. Now stick to the top of healthcare. 

Offline Inchlingblue

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #85 on: August 18, 2009, 07:50:59 PM »
Which had nothing to do with this discussion. And he was not the cause of the The stock market collapsing. Now stick to the top of healthcare. 

LOL  You're funny. ;)

Offline David_CA

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #86 on: August 18, 2009, 07:55:31 PM »
Unless I'm mistaken, NC is one of 19 states that use self-funded insurance for their employees' health coverage.  I believe that's why we say that it's 'administered' by BC/BS.  I don't mean to imply that the State covers every detail in house.  NC also has some independently run DMV offices.  DMV is still most definitely a State-run agency, but some of the smaller branches are contracted.  Our insurance may not be what you're referring to when you say 'government-run', but it is different from what most private employers use.

Even though you are a State employee, your state farms out the coverage to a private insurer, in the same way that most employers do; this is not the same as a government-run system, such as what Congress has, or what Medicare, Medicaid and the VA are.

My larger point is that many people against government-run health care love their Medicare, which is government-run. Many members of Congress are against single-payer or a public option but they sure do love their government-run health care coverage. 

Your coverage is paid by the state, because you are an employee of the state. It's not an example of "government-run" health care, it is comparable to having private coverage through one's employer.


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  Atripla started 12-01-2006
01-08-07 CD4 429 @26.8% VL 1872!
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08-03-07 CD4 509 @31.8% VL 370
11-06-07 CD4 570 @30.0% VL 140
02-21-08 CD4 648 @32.4% VL 600
05-19-08 CD4 695 @33.1% VL < 48 undetectable!
08-21-08 CD4 725 @34.5%
11-11-08 CD4 672 @39.5%
02-11-09 CD4 773 @36.8%
05-11-09 CD4 615 @36.2%
08-19-09 CD4 770 @38.5%
11-19-09 CD4 944 @33.7%
02-17-10 CD4 678 @39.9%  
06-03-10 CD4 768 @34.9%
09-21-10 CD4 685 @40.3%
01-10-11 CD4 908 @36.3%
05-23-11 CD4 846 @36.8% VL 80
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Offline Inchlingblue

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #87 on: August 18, 2009, 08:26:50 PM »
I don't believe that's what's meant when the phrase "government-run" is used (which is synonymous with "single payer"). I guess it's not quite like a standard employer-paid system either.

I replied earlier because you seemed to be using it as an example of a "government-run" system in response to what I had said about Medicare, Medicaid and the VA, and it's really not an accurate comparison to make. The system you are describing is not strictly-speaking, a government-run (or single payer) system the way these others are. 
« Last Edit: August 18, 2009, 08:44:40 PM by Inchlingblue »

Offline David_CA

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #88 on: August 18, 2009, 09:13:51 PM »
Self-funded insurance seems like it would reduce the cost to insure by reducing a bit of the profit part of insurance / health care.  What we have is a PPO, though I don't think it really differs much from a standard policy.  I get good coverage for low co-pays.  I've had few issues with it at all except for Medco.  At any rate, it is possible to have a government-run (of some sort) 'insurance' policy that dictates payment levels to providers.  As the largest employer in NC, the State negotiates really good prices for services while minimally hindering selection of providers, treatment, etc.



I don't believe that's what's meant when the phrase "government-run" is used (which is synonymous with "single payer"). I guess it's not quite like a standard employer-paid system either.

I replied earlier because you seemed to be using it as an example of a "government-run" system in response to what I had said about Medicare, Medicaid and the VA, and it's really not an accurate comparison to make. The system you are describing is not strictly-speaking, a government-run (or single payer) system the way these others are. 
Black Friday 03-03-2006
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08-15-06 CD4 388 @22.8% VL >  "
10-21-06 CD4 285 @21.9% VL >  "
  Atripla started 12-01-2006
01-08-07 CD4 429 @26.8% VL 1872!
05-08-07 CD4 478 @28.1% VL 740
08-03-07 CD4 509 @31.8% VL 370
11-06-07 CD4 570 @30.0% VL 140
02-21-08 CD4 648 @32.4% VL 600
05-19-08 CD4 695 @33.1% VL < 48 undetectable!
08-21-08 CD4 725 @34.5%
11-11-08 CD4 672 @39.5%
02-11-09 CD4 773 @36.8%
05-11-09 CD4 615 @36.2%
08-19-09 CD4 770 @38.5%
11-19-09 CD4 944 @33.7%
02-17-10 CD4 678 @39.9%  
06-03-10 CD4 768 @34.9%
09-21-10 CD4 685 @40.3%
01-10-11 CD4 908 @36.3%
05-23-11 CD4 846 @36.8% VL 80
02-13-12 CD4 911 @41.4% VL<20
You must be the change you want to see in the world.  Mahatma Gandhi

Offline bocker3

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #89 on: August 18, 2009, 10:24:43 PM »
I don't believe that's what's meant when the phrase "government-run" is used (which is synonymous with "single payer"). I guess it's not quite like a standard employer-paid system either.

I replied earlier because you seemed to be using it as an example of a "government-run" system in response to what I had said about Medicare, Medicaid and the VA, and it's really not an accurate comparison to make. The system you are describing is not strictly-speaking, a government-run (or single payer) system the way these others are. 

I actually think this is sort of 'splitting hairs' -- and where it would be good for folks to step into what the other side is saying vs. defending what they say (I'm speaking about this in the larger sense -- not specifically about this exchange).  Medicare, Medicaid and the VA are pretty much as "single-payer" as David's example or any self-funded private employer.  What I mean by that is -- one entity is paying -- i.e. the state of NC taxpayers.  In fact, Medicaid is a combination of Fed and State, if I remember correctly, so it's not "single" in the strictest of sense.  It seems to me that when people say "single-payer", they don't mean it in any piecemeal way, rather ALL healthcare is paid by the same entity.
However -- the point here is not to nitpick (even though it may seem that way), rather it is to point out that this whole debate goes no where if folks aren't willing to fully consider other side.

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Offline Inchlingblue

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #90 on: August 19, 2009, 01:51:10 AM »
Sorting out the terms and all the options when it comes to health care in the US can get convoluted (single payer, socialized medicine, universal health care, PPO, HMO, managed care, FSA, HRA, HSA, HDHP, etc etc).

That's part of the problem whenever health care reform, to quote Palin on Putin, rears its ugly head.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2009, 02:09:48 AM by Inchlingblue »

Offline skeebo1969

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #91 on: August 19, 2009, 03:02:49 AM »



  Had a long reply all typed up and something about this laptop ain't right and I erased it all. 

  Oh well.....

  Interesting thread guys....
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Offline randym431

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #92 on: August 19, 2009, 08:20:52 AM »
This is great... Barney Frank's town hall.
And THIS is what supporters are up against.
So simple... This lady is exactly the type that listen to
everything Rush Limbaugh, and Fox News says.
Rush and Fox know well these people are idiots,
they count on it... actually.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYlZiWK2Iy8&feature=player_embedded

But looking back at medicare, which is a government ran, it was democrats and good old
president LBJ that got this thru. And today, now, Seniors embrace medicare.
Yet some rant against a government "option" proposed now... I'm bewildered...
Its too bad LBJ got caught up in that war, because he did do a lot of good for every day
American's i.e. SS, medicare and civil rights.

And it strikes me... if civil rights were an issue today, where blacks today had no voting rights,
you know damm well most republicans would be against granting civil rights.
If for no other reason, to score points against democrats.
And Rush Limbaugh would be happy to take up the talking points against civil rights.

I guess I'm saying, there is a right way and a wrong way to do things in this country.
Thank God we did things the right way back in the 1960's with LBJ.

Offline skeebo1969

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #93 on: August 19, 2009, 08:33:39 AM »
  Its too bad LBJ got caught up in that war, because he did do a lot of good for every day
American's i.e. SS, medicare and civil rights.

And it strikes me... if civil rights were an issue today, where blacks today had no voting rights,
you know damm well most republicans would be against granting civil rights.
If for no other reason, to score points against democrats.
And Rush Limbaugh would be happy to take up the talking points against civil rights.

I guess I'm saying, there is a right way and a wrong way to do things in this country.
Thank God we did things the right way back in the 1960's with LBJ.

  He never got the credit he truly deserved.....  sorry just had to throw that out there.  Back to the subject.
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Offline Denver Toad

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #94 on: August 19, 2009, 11:29:09 AM »
 Out of curiosity today I looked up the first time the U.S. Government got involved in public health. It was far earlier than I would have guessed.

July 16th, 1798 * - John Adams signed signed "an Act for the relief of sick and disabled Seamen,"creating the Marine Hospital Service, the predecessor to Public Health Service.

The National Institutes of Health traces it roots to 1887, when a one-room laboratory ws created with the Marine Hospital Service.

They went on to create cures for Colera, Yellow Fever, Typhus and Diptheria.

More than eighty Nobel prizes have been awarded for NIH-supported research.

Here is a link giving the Historical Highlights of the Dept of Health and Human Services -

http://www.hhs.gov/about/hhshist.html

But, DON'T click on it, because it contains FACTS. We can't have facts confusing a political discussion.

* The Constitution was ratified in July 1789 - So the U.S. Government went 4 long months without being involved in Public Health Care.
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Offline AlanBama

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #95 on: August 19, 2009, 11:53:23 AM »
I will never understand the mindset that puts insurance company profits above the health and well-being of the country and its populace.   

From my viewpoint, there is only a single word that comes to mind when people are being driven into bankruptcy and being told they have to become completely destitute to obtain necessary health care (i.e.  pay or die) or telling a person making barely enough money to put food on the table to open a health savings account, while the insurance companies are raking in profits and paying their executives tens of millions of dollars a year.

That word is evil.


As usual, I agree with everything Libvet has posted.   I don't understand it either, my friend.  They are so afraid some tax dollars might be spent for an (dare I say the word?) abortion, that they would rather have the status quo in the health care system.   It just makes me sick, literally.

Maybe they could appease the republicans by saying "ok we won't use any money for abortions, but instead we will use that money to buy the drugs that are injected to someone on death row as lethal injection execution".   (another thing I've never figured out:  how they can be so DEAD SET against abortion of any kind, but all for the death penalty).   >:(
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Offline pos2007

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #96 on: August 19, 2009, 10:39:35 PM »
From  what i  have seen  the several  times  universal  healthcare   has been  brought  up  (  Kennedy,  Nixon,  H.  Clinton,  &   now  Obama),   it  is  always  tightwad selfish,  self centered  people  that  do not  want  to  share  the cost  or  privilege of  healthcare with  those of  us  who  can't  afford  it.   I have  HIV,  My   wife  has  HIV,  I     have  cancer;  no  health  insurance  company  will  insure  my  wife  and  she  has been through several  hospitalizations plus  the  cost  of  HIV.   My  insurance  premiums were  just raised as  of  yesterday  from $910.00   to  $994.00  and  I  have  to  continually  fight  for  coverage.     Hepatas a/b  vaccination  costs $45.00 per  shot  (  series  of 3) at   our  county  health  clinic but  I  have  to  pay  the  entire  cost  myself.   Insurance  will   not  pay  for  it.   The  same  shot  costs $385.00,  plus a $150.00  doctor  fee,   plus a $45.00 for   giving  the  shot at  my  doctor,   but  the  insurance  will  pay  for  2  of  the   series  of  three.   That  is a screwed  up system! It  is  only  by  the grace  of  God  that  the  people that scream,  No,   that  that  they  do  not  want  to  share  their  healthcare with  the  rest  of  us are not  sick   and  need  help.  If  they  spent  one  week trying to get  a thieving  insurance  company  to  cover their  bills,   or  a week  trying to get  care for a dying spouse,  they  would  change  their  tune.  It  is  nothing  more  than  orchestrated protests  along  the  same  lines as  the  NRA.   >:(
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Offline pinkadam

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #97 on: August 19, 2009, 10:48:24 PM »
This is great... Barney Frank's town hall.
And THIS is what supporters are up against.
So simple... This lady is exactly the type that listen to
everything Rush Limbaugh, and Fox News says.
Rush and Fox know well these people are idiots,
they count on it... actually.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYlZiWK2Iy8&feature=player_embedded

But looking back at medicare, which is a government ran, it was democrats and good old
president LBJ that got this thru. And today, now, Seniors embrace medicare.
Yet some rant against a government "option" proposed now... I'm bewildered...
Its too bad LBJ got caught up in that war, because he did do a lot of good for every day
American's i.e. SS, medicare and civil rights.

And it strikes me... if civil rights were an issue today, where blacks today had no voting rights,
you know damm well most republicans would be against granting civil rights.
If for no other reason, to score points against democrats.
And Rush Limbaugh would be happy to take up the talking points against civil rights.

I guess I'm saying, there is a right way and a wrong way to do things in this country.
Thank God we did things the right way back in the 1960's with LBJ.


It so sad to a young woman talking trash in a town hall meeting in MA. Is she getting paid for what she is doing or she is a member of KKK.I may understand if that was a uneducated middle age woman who lives in small town and listen to fox news whose news readers are bunch of bigots and racists

Offline bobino

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #98 on: August 21, 2009, 11:51:01 PM »

I see you exempted the 4 trillion dollar deficient that Obama has gotten the US into. Bailout to banks with taxpayer money and forgot to notice that they didn't put stipulations on that money and top excs. still got their multimillion dollar bonuses after their banks failed and didn't keep track of where the money was going. Electronic record keeping. LOL They can't keep hackers out of the government computers. Eventhough where I get my medical service it has been on electric record keeping for years though they have just started the electronic prescriptions.


Sorry Rod, but please spare us these Fox-style attempts to blame Obama for the deficit.  If you're interested in some facts on this point, I suggest you take a look at this article and the sources it links to.

http://blogs.tnr.com/tnr/blogs/the_plank/archive/2009/06/11/the-truth-about-obama-and-the-deficit.aspx

Here's the money quote, if you'll pardon the pun:

Quote
Leonhardt looked at the budget from 2009 through 2012, and tried to figure out what had changed in those years since 2001. He found that the business cycle accounted for 37% of the higher red ink. More than half came from legislation signed by President Bush. Seven percent came from Obama's stimulus bill, and only three percent from his regular budget.

And please try to remember that the bailouts were enacted under Bush at the insistence of Henry Paulson.
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Offline Ann

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #99 on: August 22, 2009, 12:01:06 AM »

And please try to remember that the bailouts were enacted under Bush at the insistence of Henry Paulson.


Oh come on, mate! What do facts have to do with the subject at hand?
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Offline Dachshund

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #100 on: August 22, 2009, 06:56:29 AM »
Ann's right. We try never to confuse a topic with facts. Retain 100% hyperbole if at all possible.  ;D Rinse wash and repeat.

Offline Forever England

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"Taxes are what we pay for a civilised society"
« Reply #101 on: August 22, 2009, 06:49:26 PM »
Reading this debate and watching the coverage from the UK has been fascinating and, at times, troubling.

I was diagnosed HIV+ about 8 weeks ago. Having researched this, I'm confident that I'm benefiting from advanced treatment. I've suffered no delay and have been handled with sympathy, respect and dignity.

My local doctor, Accident and Emergency services, NHS Direct (a non-emergency, medical, 24 hour, telephone helpline available to all), the STD clinic that provided my initial test and the specialist HIV clinic where I'm treated have all provided me with outstanding service and support. No one asks me for money when I arrive or sends me a bill after. They just treat me according to my need. I pay tax on my income but if I were unemployed, earning less or earning more, I'd still be treated the same.

It's now 23:30 in the UK and time for me to take my daily dose of Atripla. If I had to pay for this, I believe it'd cost me the equivalent of $50 USD/day ($18,000/year). Thankfully, I don't. Knowing that so many lack what I take for granted is why I'm troubled. Compared to most, I'm spoilt.

The least I am is grateful.

Offline newt

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #102 on: August 22, 2009, 11:09:48 PM »
let us not forget

a Labour (mildy socialist) government borrowed the money from the US to start the NHS, and boy am I glad

- matt
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Offline Robert

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #103 on: August 22, 2009, 11:57:52 PM »
let us not forget

a Labour (mildy socialist) government borrowed the money from the US to start the NHS, and boy am I glad

- matt


the irony.....It just kills me. :-*
..........

Offline bobino

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #104 on: August 23, 2009, 01:33:33 AM »
Oh come on, mate! What do facts have to do with the subject at hand?

(Sigh)  I know.  But I'm one of those incorrigible members of what we Americans refer to as the "reality-based community."
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Offline randym431

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #105 on: August 23, 2009, 06:46:25 AM »
I believe that lady in the town hall was part of the Lyndon LaRouche gang. They always try to link Obama to Hitler. They are a pretty nutty group of nutjobs. I think there also is a link to the John Burch Society and the Lyndon LaRouche followers. Both groups believe in some crazy ideas, just enough to be dangerous. If Im not mistaken, their people are also the ones bringing-wearing the guns to Obama healthcare events. These are the people the NRA protects.

There is no reason and no real connection to reform and these crazies coming out of the woodwork.
Its just their chance to take advantage of an opportunity. Obama, a black president and government. Both of which they will not tolerate.
Its not healthcare, its just their chance to wear guns in public, and link Obama to Hitler, in protest of their anti government beliefs. Actually, it goes back to Reagan. Not the 1980's Reagan, but the 1960's Reagan "American Medical Association" spokesman.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FzNTB1qtFA

The lady at the town hall, guns in public, the John Burch Society, the Lyndon LaRouche gang and the 1960's Reagan. They are all linked. And dare I say.... many republicans. At least... many republicans, and the Rush Limbaugh's, have found an odd-fellow relationship. The Lyndon LaRouche gang can use the town halls as an outlet, and the republicans welcome the anti Obama policy ranting.
This odd fellow relationship is very dangerous for the republicans to align themselves with.
If it backfires, and it will, that could destroy the republican party as we know it.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2009, 07:12:59 AM by randym431 »

Offline azprince

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #106 on: January 05, 2010, 11:23:32 PM »
When will we see it implemented at least the issue of eliminating the pre existing condition clause ?
I have to admit : the good thing is that from now on;  I have no option but to succeed , still its ok to worry :))

Offline Inchlingblue

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #107 on: January 06, 2010, 01:28:52 AM »
When will we see it implemented at least the issue of eliminating the pre existing condition clause ?

The health care bills from the Senate and the House must be combined for a final bill but what I read of the one in the Senate is that pre-existing conditions exclusions affecting children would be eliminated immediately after the bill passes but for adults it would not take effect until 2014! 

Which is a CROCK. Just another of those ridiculous concessions allowing insurance companies to continue to act unethically for longer.

We'll see what it will be when there is a final bill.

Offline azprince

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #108 on: January 06, 2010, 09:32:45 AM »
2014  :-X woww more years to go with worries of treatment interruption ughhhhhhh
But thanks for the clarification
I have to admit : the good thing is that from now on;  I have no option but to succeed , still its ok to worry :))

Offline Inchlingblue

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #109 on: January 06, 2010, 10:16:22 AM »
2014  :-X woww more years to go with worries of treatment interruption ughhhhhhh
But thanks for the clarification

This was the Senate bill, it could change once they combine and have a final bill.    I'm not sure what the House bill says about pre-existing conditions. There's still hope. ;)

Offline azprince

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #110 on: January 06, 2010, 11:11:19 AM »
When r they supposed to combine them, and when they cobine them they would assign a date to make it effective ?

I have to admit : the good thing is that from now on;  I have no option but to succeed , still its ok to worry :))

Offline Assurbanipal

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #111 on: January 06, 2010, 09:20:41 PM »
The combining process is starting -- when it will end ...

For those interested in exploring the Senate bill, the links from the Democratic policy committee make it easy to look at the bill in various levels of detail.  http://dpc.senate.gov/dpcdoc-sen_health_care_bill.cfm

The health care bills from the Senate and the House must be combined for a final bill but what I read of the one in the Senate is that pre-existing conditions exclusions affecting children would be eliminated immediately after the bill passes but for adults it would not take effect until 2014! 

Which is a CROCK. Just another of those ridiculous concessions allowing insurance companies to continue to act unethically for longer.

We'll see what it will be when there is a final bill.

Note, the Senate bill delays some provisions until the new insurance exchanges are set up (in 2014 under the Senate bill).  But in the meantime there are usually some programs to fill in some or all of the gap.  For adults with preexisting conditions the Senate bill sets up a new temporary program immediately that runs until 2014:

Sec. 1101. Immediate access to insurance for people with a preexisting condition. Enacts a temporary insurance program with financial assistance for those who have been uninsured for several months and have a pre-existing condition. Ensures premium rate limits for the newly insured population. Provides up to $5 billion for this program, which terminates when the American Health Benefit Exchanges are operational in 2014. Also establishes a transition to the Exchanges for eligible individuals.

http://dpc.senate.gov/healthreformbill/healthbill05.pdf

And, as a historical comparison, Social Security did not pay benefits immediately on date of enactment either.  In fact, as first enacted (in 1935,) it would have paid its first benefits in 1942.  It was later amended to make its first payments in 1940.  Revenue offsets (e.g. taxes) started in 1937 however. 

A
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Offline MitchMiller

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #112 on: January 07, 2010, 01:28:22 AM »
How vague can they get:

Ensures premium rate limits for the newly insured population.

What does that mean?  I wondering if they'll ever give us any specifics on premium rates... or if we'll end up with the insurance companies deciding what is and what is not too expensive based on their expected payout.

Offline Assurbanipal

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #113 on: January 07, 2010, 07:08:12 AM »
How vague can they get:

Ensures premium rate limits for the newly insured population.

What does that mean?  I wondering if they'll ever give us any specifics on premium rates... or if we'll end up with the insurance companies deciding what is and what is not too expensive based on their expected payout.

It means that limits are placed on the design of the insurance policy (the maximum out of pocket payment, no benefit limits, etc.), insurance company profits (minimum percentage of premiums that must be paid as benefits), premium disparities (only age-related variation in premiums) ...

But no, the federal government is not going to specify premium amounts.  This bill reforms the health insurance marketplace; it does not replace the private market with a public plan.  It gets us to a dramatically better place, but not by any means a perfect one.
5/06 VL 1M+, CD4 22, 5% , pneumonia, thrush -- O2 support 2 months, 6/06 +Kaletra/Truvada
9/06 VL 3959 CD4 297 13.5% 12/06 VL <400 CD4 350 15.2% +Pravachol
2007 VL<400, 70, 50 CD4 408-729 16.0% -19.7%
2008 VL UD CD4 468 - 538 16.7% - 24.6% Osteoporosis 11/08 doubled Pravachol, +Calcium/D
02/09 VL 100 CD4 616 23.7% 03/09 VL 130 5/09 VL 100 CD4 540 28.4% +Actonel (osteoporosis) 7/09 VL 130
8/09  new regimen Isentress/Epzicom 9/09 VL UD CD4 621 32.7% 11/09 VL UD CD4 607 26.4% swap Isentress for Prezista/Norvir 12/09 (liver and muscle issues) VL 50
2010 VL UD CD4 573-680 26.1% - 30.9% 12/10 VL 20
2011 VL UD-20 CD4 568-673 24.7%-30.6%
2012 VL UD swap Prezista/Norvir for Reyataz drop statin CD4 768-828 26.7%-30.7%

Offline RapidRod

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #114 on: January 07, 2010, 02:51:54 PM »
Quote
And, as a historical comparison, Social Security did not pay benefits immediately on date of enactment either.  In fact, as first enacted (in 1935,) it would have paid its first benefits in 1942.  It was later amended to make its first payments in 1940.  Revenue offsets (e.g. taxes) started in 1937 however. 
Reason being, to start the SS numbering system. Something that doesn't have to be done today. It's already in existence. http://www.socialsecurity.gov/history/briefhistory3.html

Offline Assurbanipal

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #115 on: January 07, 2010, 03:11:03 PM »
Reason being, to start the SS numbering system. Something that doesn't have to be done today. It's already in existence. http://www.socialsecurity.gov/history/briefhistory3.html

Ummm... the Social Security numbering system was started by 1937, when taxes were collected. 

But even more to the point I was making, major new programs generally have some delay built in because getting something new right takes time.  The specific challenge varies, but it is common for there to be a delay. And it is common for the programs to collect revenue (taxes) before the benefits kick in.  This is not some new, deadly, unheard of left-wing/right-wing plot; it is how the legislative process typically works.

In this case the major new hurdle is the set up of the insurance exchanges which will reflect an enormous change in the rules of the road for insurers.  And since those rules will never be set out in more than outline form by Congress, the details of those rules will have to be set out by federal regulators (who currently do not regulate health insurance; currently health insurance regulation is almost entirely by the states).  Under the due process rules for federal regulations, the new regulators will have to propose rules, accept comments, possibly hold hearings and then publish final rules or re-propose and start the process all over again.  Then the insurers and the exchanges will need to go through all the insurance policies they have and amend them -- states will often still need to sign off on the changes.  This all takes time, lots of it.  A huge advantage of merely extending Medicare to all would have been the timeline savings from not needing to invent new wheels.  But politics is the art of the possible...(sigh)
5/06 VL 1M+, CD4 22, 5% , pneumonia, thrush -- O2 support 2 months, 6/06 +Kaletra/Truvada
9/06 VL 3959 CD4 297 13.5% 12/06 VL <400 CD4 350 15.2% +Pravachol
2007 VL<400, 70, 50 CD4 408-729 16.0% -19.7%
2008 VL UD CD4 468 - 538 16.7% - 24.6% Osteoporosis 11/08 doubled Pravachol, +Calcium/D
02/09 VL 100 CD4 616 23.7% 03/09 VL 130 5/09 VL 100 CD4 540 28.4% +Actonel (osteoporosis) 7/09 VL 130
8/09  new regimen Isentress/Epzicom 9/09 VL UD CD4 621 32.7% 11/09 VL UD CD4 607 26.4% swap Isentress for Prezista/Norvir 12/09 (liver and muscle issues) VL 50
2010 VL UD CD4 573-680 26.1% - 30.9% 12/10 VL 20
2011 VL UD-20 CD4 568-673 24.7%-30.6%
2012 VL UD swap Prezista/Norvir for Reyataz drop statin CD4 768-828 26.7%-30.7%

Offline RapidRod

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #116 on: January 07, 2010, 03:19:33 PM »
First application forms were distributed in late November 1936. The numbers were assigned in the local post offices. After Social Security numbers were assigned, the first Federal Insurance Contributions Act (FICA) taxes were collected, beginning in January 1937.

Offline Inchlingblue

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #117 on: January 07, 2010, 03:56:44 PM »
But even more to the point I was making, major new programs generally have some delay built in because getting something new right takes time.  

Some aspects of new legislation take time to implement but declaring that pre-existing conditions no longer apply is not something that would take time to implement. They "compromised" (at least in the Senate, not sure what the House bill says about this) that children are exempt  immediately but adults have to wait until 2014. This was a concession to benefit the insurance companies at the expense of the lives and health of average Americans.

Offline Dennis

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Re: Universal healthcare in US
« Reply #118 on: January 07, 2010, 05:21:40 PM »
How vague can they get:

Ensures premium rate limits for the newly insured population.

What does that mean?  I wondering if they'll ever give us any specifics on premium rates... or if we'll end up with the insurance companies deciding what is and what is not too expensive based on their expected payout.

My understanding is, regardless of premiums, an individual is only required to spend less than 10% of their income on healthcare, and a family of four making roughly no more than $80,000 a year, or 400% of the poverty level would qualify for subsidies.

 


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