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Author Topic: CD4 fast fall  (Read 3586 times)

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Offline betonet

  • Member
  • Posts: 42
CD4 fast fall
« on: February 27, 2009, 02:36:28 PM »
Folks,
I was diagnosed in 29 dec 2008,
my first test CD4 count in 5th january were 550.
Now I tested yesterday and they are 320.
How is this possible - fall of 230 CD4 cells in 40 days?
Dec 2008 - diagnosed +
Jan 2009  CD4 550  CD4% ??  VL 40 000
Feb 2009  CD4 330  CD4% 18  VL Unknown
Apr 2009  CD4 406  CD4% 20  VL Unknown
May 2009  CD4 380  CD4% ??  VL 27 000
June 2009 CD4 395  CD4% ??  VL Unknown
Sept 2009 CD4 344  CD4% ??  VL 44 000
Jan   2010 CD4 397  CD4% ??  VL 250 000
May  2010 CD4 370  CD4% 16  VL 750 000
Aug 2010 CD4 385  CD4% 14  VL Unknown
Dec 2010 CD4 315  CD4% ??  VL Unknown
Jan 2010 CD4 285 CD4% ?? VL Unknown
No meds yet

Offline John2038

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Re: CD4 fast fall
« Reply #1 on: February 27, 2009, 02:57:30 PM »
Got the same, from 750 to 350 in just a month.
But at this time, I was having a gastro + cold and made a long trip (like 19h flight + transit and 5h of train in more).

I monitored carefully my counts afterwards, and just 2-3 weeks after, I went up to 470 and 2 weeks after 550. In more, my VL went down from 550 to 450 and my CD4% raised by 3% (stable during the CD4 drop).

You may want to check in more your CD4% before worrying about a single lab.
If it is stable, there are normally no reasons to worry but to wait and see.
Now only your ID doc can advise you, here I am just giving a point of view.

Finally, a sharp CD4 decline is common. It's what does HIV. And that's was there is HAART.
Personally, I choosed to start meds, to prevent as much as possible bad surprises and take an umbrella against OIs/non-OIs.

Since then, I am doing fine, have no regrets, and restarted my life where I left it some time ago, when I come to discover I was infected.
I am now letting the drugs do there job and give a rest to my body, that I am maintaining in the best possible way.

I am also pretty convinced (but no proof) that better treatments are coming, and that starting HAART earlier isn't a big deal as it have been some years ago.

Just my two cents, no more.

Offline Assurbanipal

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Re: CD4 fast fall
« Reply #2 on: February 27, 2009, 03:53:20 PM »
Hello Betonet

CD4 counts do vary up and down at random a lot.  So it is probably not a good idea to focus on just the one number, but instead to look at a trend over time.  US treatment guidelines say a variation is significant if it is more than 30%.  So your numbers could have gone up or down by 160 without necessarily being significant.  The CD4% should also be available from your labwork and you might want to get in the habit of asking your doctor what it was -- it usually has less random variation.

That said, a 230 point decline is a significant one and you should talk to your doctor about how (s)he plans to monitor your CD4 counts and about when it might be a good time to begin drugs and start fighting the virus.  Under current US guidelines, values under 350 would generally indicate it is a good time to begin HAART.

This site has really helpful explanations of Tcell counts and about starting HAART in the lessons.  http://www.aidsmeds.com/articles/WhenToStart_4755.shtml


Best wishes
A
5/06 VL 1M+, CD4 22, 5% , pneumonia, thrush -- O2 support 2 months, 6/06 +Kaletra/Truvada
9/06 VL 3959 CD4 297 13.5% 12/06 VL <400 CD4 350 15.2% +Pravachol
2007 VL<400, 70, 50 CD4 408-729 16.0% -19.7%
2008 VL UD CD4 468 - 538 16.7% - 24.6% Osteoporosis 11/08 doubled Pravachol, +Calcium/D
02/09 VL 100 CD4 616 23.7% 03/09 VL 130 5/09 VL 100 CD4 540 28.4% +Actonel (osteoporosis) 7/09 VL 130
8/09  new regimen Isentress/Epzicom 9/09 VL UD CD4 621 32.7% 11/09 VL UD CD4 607 26.4% swap Isentress for Prezista/Norvir 12/09 (liver and muscle issues) VL 50
2010 VL UD CD4 573-680 26.1% - 30.9% 12/10 VL 20
2011 VL UD-20 CD4 568-673 24.7%-30.6%
2012 VL UD swap Prezista/Norvir for Reyataz drop statin CD4 768-828 26.7%-30.7%

Offline betonet

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  • Posts: 42
Re: CD4 fast fall
« Reply #3 on: February 27, 2009, 04:28:12 PM »
Thank you both for the fast reply!

I would ask my doctor but they will be unavailable until next wednesday.
My CD4 count is 326, percentage is 18%. Is that good or bad percentage?
My CD8 count are 1218 and percentage 67%.

Dec 2008 - diagnosed +
Jan 2009  CD4 550  CD4% ??  VL 40 000
Feb 2009  CD4 330  CD4% 18  VL Unknown
Apr 2009  CD4 406  CD4% 20  VL Unknown
May 2009  CD4 380  CD4% ??  VL 27 000
June 2009 CD4 395  CD4% ??  VL Unknown
Sept 2009 CD4 344  CD4% ??  VL 44 000
Jan   2010 CD4 397  CD4% ??  VL 250 000
May  2010 CD4 370  CD4% 16  VL 750 000
Aug 2010 CD4 385  CD4% 14  VL Unknown
Dec 2010 CD4 315  CD4% ??  VL Unknown
Jan 2010 CD4 285 CD4% ?? VL Unknown
No meds yet

Offline John2038

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Re: CD4 fast fall
« Reply #4 on: February 27, 2009, 04:38:20 PM »
18% is low but you have the time to see your doc.
Your percentage is now better align now with your absolute CD4 count.
A raise of the CD8 is common in HIV positive.
It can be a good sign also as you are having a slight increase (the std range is 400-1000 as far as I know).

You know that in such forum we are giving our 2 cents.

So mine are:

it's time for you to consider starting HAART and you will see your numbers increase :)
You are not in a hurry doing so, but it would be most probably be this year.
A genotype should be done also.

Best Luck

John

Offline Ann

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    • Num is sum qui mentiar tibi?
Re: CD4 fast fall
« Reply #5 on: February 28, 2009, 10:09:31 AM »
Bet,


it's time for you to consider starting HAART and you will see your numbers increase :)
You are not in a hurry doing so, but it would be most probably be this year.


Contrary to what John said, there's no way of knowing from only two results when you'll need meds. You might need them this year and you might not need them for many years. Please don't let John's post panic you.

Have you read the Lessons yet? If not, I highly recommend that you do. They're written in plain English and easy to understand. In particular, you should read the secton The Blood Tests You'll Need so you can better understand what your numbers mean.

Your CD4s can bounce around quite a bit, so try to not be too alarmed when something like this happens. As has been mentioned, you need a few more results under your belt before you can see what sort of trend, if any, is going on. I've been poz for nearly 12 years and my numbers have bounced around like crazy. I'm still not on meds.

Hang in there...

Ann
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline komnaes

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  • Posts: 1,893
Re: CD4 fast fall
« Reply #6 on: February 28, 2009, 10:22:03 AM »
That's why I like to only hear my new CD4 number when I am with my doctor, while I know some can get it through email or by calling the clinic.

Anne is right Bet, the first few counts jump a bit a lot. What you need is a trend.

Also you health and well being do not reflect only by this CD4 number.

Talk to your doctor and discuss all possible options. S/He may or may not recommend starting medication right away or to quickly do another test. In the meantime give yourself time to settle down and be prepared to take meds before rushing into it.

Wish you the best, Shaun
Aug 07 Diagnosed
Oct 07 CD4=446(19%) Feb 08 CD4=421(19%)
Jun 08 CD4=325(22%) Jul 08 CD4=301(18%)
Sep 08 CD4=257/VL=75,000 Oct 08 CD4=347(16%)
Dec 08 CD4=270(16%)
Jan 09 CD4=246(13%)/VL=10,000
Feb 09 CD4=233(15%)/VL=13,000
Started meds Sustiva/Epzicom
May 09 CD4=333(24%)/VL=650
Aug 09 CD4=346(24%)/VL=UD
Nov 09 CD4=437(26%)/VL=UD
Feb 10 CD4=471(31%)/VL=UD
June 10 CD4=517 (28%)/VL=UD
Sept 10 CD4=687 (31%)/VL=UD
Jan 11 CD4=557 (30%)/VL=UD
April 11 CD4=569 (32%)/VL=UD
Switched to Epizcom, Reyataz and Norvir
(Interrupted for 2 months with only Epizcom & Reyataz)
July 11 CD=520 (28%)/VL=UD
Oct 11 CD=771 (31%)/VL=UD(<30)
April 12 CD=609 (28%)/VL=UD(<20)
Aug 12 CD=657 (29%)/VL=UD(<20)
Dec 12 CD=532 (31%)/VL=UD(<20)
May 13 CD=567 (31%)/VL=UD(<20)
Jan 14 CD=521 (21%)/VL=UD(<50)

Offline clsoca

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  • Posts: 164
Re: CD4 fast fall
« Reply #7 on: February 28, 2009, 11:34:31 AM »
My CD4 numbers dropped fast as well. I was shocked and very scared.

I have learned that the HIV bug is very smart and sneaky. It lurks and hides in your body and attacks when your not looking. I started meds recently, and I am glad I did. No more painful swelling in the neck or worries. My stress level has gone down substantially. I do miss going to sunday beer bust. But My ID Doc told me to wait until I am undetectable then we will negotiate prudent beer bust participation.  A small price to pay I suppose for longevity.
10/07 Infected
11/07 Seroconversion
07/08 Tested Poz
07/08 VL 487  CD4 658  (No Meds)
10/08 VL 286  CD4 724  (No Meds)
01/24/09 VL 30,100   CD4 329 CD4 30% (No Meds)
02/06/09 VL 44,000   CD4 367 CD4 36%  Blood Work @ UCLA (No Meds)
02/06/09 VL 44,000   CD4 317 CD4 35% Blood Work @ USC (No Meds)
02/12/09 VL 52,000   CD4 297 CD4 29%
02/12/09  Started Atripla
04/01/09 VL 60  CD4 667   CD4 48%
06-05-09  VL UD CD4 427   CD4 39%

Offline John2038

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Re: CD4 fast fall
« Reply #8 on: February 28, 2009, 03:19:36 PM »
Betonet

you said you have been diagnosed last December but not when you might have been infected.
It's usually something hard to determine and most of people don't know this information.

As have said others, at the beginining of the infection, the counts are bouncing a lot and it is better in such case to wait few others labs.

Starting meds will provide you an umbrella. Psychologicaly and physically.
Now meds have side effects and your ID Doc is the best qualified to advise you.

If you decide to start meds, just know that many people which did so have no regrets.
Surely some have, but IMHO, delaying meds is a lottery.
The stats shows that the OIs/non-OIs risk are lowered by the meds.
The counterpart is the side effects of the meds, resitances and so.
Recent studies have taken into account all these parameters and the balance (trend) is on the HAART side at CD4=500. But the guidelines are more conservatives and still recommend CD4=350.

Again it's YOUR choices, and I hopes you will do the one that is the most appropriate for you.

Best Luck
John
« Last Edit: February 28, 2009, 03:23:48 PM by John2038 »

Offline Ann

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  • It just is, OK?
    • Num is sum qui mentiar tibi?
Re: CD4 fast fall
« Reply #9 on: February 28, 2009, 03:51:15 PM »
Bet,

Numbers don't only bounce in the beginning of the infection. I've been poz nearly twelve years and mine are still bouncing.

You really do need more than two or even three results to be able to tell what's going on. You've got time, don't panic.

Ann
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline Steinway

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  • Posts: 60
Re: CD4 fast fall
« Reply #10 on: February 28, 2009, 09:41:36 PM »
Hello,  You really can't let the counts bother you.  It will make you insane if you dwell on it.  The truth is that counts change so often we could never keep up.  Our counts change from stress, lack of sleep, a cold, just about anything that will affect our bodies and that would mean everything because even emotions play a role in how our bodies change from moment to moment.  My counts are in the 300's,  I feel great.  Someone else might have counts in the 500's and they fall to the 400's and they feel bad.  Why is this?  Because we are each different.  The lowest my CD4 count was 160.  It scared me, but I was stressed,  I was worried, no wonder those little buggars went down.  I didn't feel sick though,  it doesn't mean the end, it just means your counts are down.   I know people that had counts down to as low as 60,  they are still around.  Like I said, we all are different, but a low count doesn't necessarily mean a horrible thing is on it's way.  It's probably not a bad idea to talk to your doctor,  they may have some insights to your specific situation.   Your counts might be right where they need to be.  Meds could help, your body might increase the CD4's on their own.  Just try to relax and know that you are fine.  It's all a little scary, but we all still here and we all go through it every three months or so.  Don't be afraid,  I know, easier said than done, but really, you will be fine. 
   Talk to your doctor or nurse.  Do some reading too.  I find that my own research can put my mind at ease.   There are so many sites out there so be careful, but you will know which ones to trust.  You can always do a search on the forums here too and they might bring some light on anything you are going through.  Chances are there is someone if not a lot of people that have faced the same fears that you are facing today.  It's actually what brought me to Aidsmeds years ago.  In fact, I think I'll write  a little note to the guy who I had read his post which I felt connected too.  I haven't chatted with him in a long while.   Let's see how he is doing.......

 Take care and I know you will be fine.  Relax, do something to take your mind off of things and just know that everything will be okay. 
 8)
~Steinway
It is with passion, courage of conviction, and strong sense of self that we take our next steps into the world. Remembering that first impressions are not always correct. You must always have faith in people, and most importantly, you must always have faith in yourself.
~E. Woods

Offline Peter Staley

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Re: CD4 fast fall
« Reply #11 on: March 01, 2009, 09:01:17 AM »

it's time for you to consider starting HAART and you will see your numbers increase :)
You are not in a hurry doing so, but it would be most probably be this year.


John -- I would appreciate it if you would stop telling everyone you find in these forums, regardless of circumstance, to start antiviral therapy.  That kind of advice is actually counter the current recommended guidelines for when to start treatment.

Just because you've been lucky starting early with few side effects from your regimen doesn't mean everyone will be so lucky.  Suppose a newly infected person comes here for advice, and starts freaking out about what to do because John2038 keeps telling them the only way to stop the virus from fucking them up is to start treatment immediately (even though there's plenty of science to show they can wait many years without much harm).

Then imagine that person is prone to side effects (feel free to read these forums for examples of folks like this), and they go on to spend the next 10 years feeling miserable, but not miserable enough to stop treatment (which will kill them, right?).  10 years of feeling like shit that didn't have to be -- all because you kept telling them this was the smartest thing to do.

I'm not saying you can't tell folks about your own experience -- just stop telling them your path is the path they should take until you've got the preponderance of science on your side.

Peter

Offline bocker3

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Re: CD4 fast fall
« Reply #12 on: March 01, 2009, 12:03:38 PM »
Hey Bet,

Hopefully you aren't too confused by all this....   ;)

As you can see there is no single answer for your situation.  Sound arguments can be made for either starting now or waiting.  There are folks on here that started right away (I was one of those) and folks that have been able to wait for years (I wish I were one of them......).  What you need to do is learn what you can so that you can have a good discussion with your doctor -- and then the decision is YOURS.
One piece of advice that I will give is to try and have your blood drawn at approximately the same time of day -- there is some fluctuations in the CD4 levels that happen throughout the day.  This tactic won't necessarily preclude "bouncing" numbers, but it will remove one variable from the equation.

Whatever you decide -- I wish you good luck -- this IS a very big decision, so it best that it not be made hastily.

Hugs,
Mike
Atripla - Started 12/05
Reyataz/Norvir - Added 6/06
Labs - Pre-Meds
Sep05 T=350/25% VL98,559
Nov05 288/18%  47,564
Current Labs
May2013 691/31% <20

Offline aztecan

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  • 29 years positive, 57 years a pain in the butt
Re: CD4 fast fall
« Reply #13 on: March 01, 2009, 01:02:52 PM »
Hey Bet,

Just to concur with the others, my CD4s have been known to jump up or drop down by 200 to 300 at a time.

At first, I found it unnerving. But, I got used to it.

Mine don't seem to bounce as much these days. Must be all those years on meds.

Hang in there.

HUGS,

Mark

"May your life preach more loudly than your lips."
~ William Ellery Channing (Unitarian Minister)

Offline jayjax

  • Member
  • Posts: 83
Re: CD4 fast fall
« Reply #14 on: March 01, 2009, 01:18:21 PM »
Hey everyone,

Thanks for all the good information in this thread.  I just had my second set of labs where my CD4 went from 268 to 195  and my VL went from 7K to 70. After a long discussion with my ID doc, he reassured me not to worry about the CD4 numbers.  These numbers move and we can't draw conclusions after the first bloodwork after starting meds.

I feel great since starting meds, but I agree that may things can affect the CD4.  For instance, the week before I got my last labs, I had a tragic loss in my family. It was an emotional drain on me and I'm sure if that played a part. Just to be proactive in case of any OIs, my ID doc prescribed me bactrim to take with my Atripla.  

As long as my VL is dropping, I feel I need to wait and see where the CD4 percentages go over time. If I'm feeling good, continue to eat healthy and exercise, I hope to see good results, especially if my VL is dropping like planned. If this happens, hopefully my CD4 #'s will improve over time.

If anyone has some sage advise, let me know.  I appreciate the comments from those with experience or similar situations.

Thanks everyone,

Jayjax.
08 Oct 08:  Diagnosed
18 Oct 08:  1st Lab Work: CD4 - 268, VL 7,000
18 Nov 08:  Started Atripla
28 Jan 09:   CD4 - 195, VL 70
05 May 09:  CD4 - 201, VL = Undetectable
16 Aug 09: CD4 - 235, VL = Undetectable
30 Nov 09 CD4 - 300, VL = Undetectable
30 Mar 10 CD4 - 305, VL = Undetectable
27 Jul 10 CD4 -  301, VL = 100
13 Aug 10 -- Switched to Truvada/Reyataz/Norvir
30 Sep 10 --  CD4 598, VL = Undetectable

Offline betonet

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  • Posts: 42
Re: CD4 fast fall
« Reply #15 on: March 01, 2009, 01:29:53 PM »
Lots of opinions, thank you all for the good info and sharing your experiences!

John, I don't know when I was infected, I think year or two, couldn't be more, as I have done a test before 2.5 years ago for HIV and was negative. But my CD4 cells tell me that either I am a very fast progressor or there is something else. Will check it up.

Here in my country there are holidays right now, so the docs will be available at wednesday and will ask them about this. I will make some more tests and then will decide with the doc if it is good time to start meds. Wouldn't like to start them so soon, but if the situation requires, will do.

Take care, friends!
Will keep you posted.
Dec 2008 - diagnosed +
Jan 2009  CD4 550  CD4% ??  VL 40 000
Feb 2009  CD4 330  CD4% 18  VL Unknown
Apr 2009  CD4 406  CD4% 20  VL Unknown
May 2009  CD4 380  CD4% ??  VL 27 000
June 2009 CD4 395  CD4% ??  VL Unknown
Sept 2009 CD4 344  CD4% ??  VL 44 000
Jan   2010 CD4 397  CD4% ??  VL 250 000
May  2010 CD4 370  CD4% 16  VL 750 000
Aug 2010 CD4 385  CD4% 14  VL Unknown
Dec 2010 CD4 315  CD4% ??  VL Unknown
Jan 2010 CD4 285 CD4% ?? VL Unknown
No meds yet

Offline John2038

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Re: CD4 fast fall
« Reply #16 on: March 01, 2009, 04:24:11 PM »
Betonet,

keep us all posted  :)

Keep Well,
John

EDIT:
Thread about starting meds "early" or earlier.
http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=25180.0

Quality of life: before VS. after starting HAART
http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=25836.0

EuroSida Risk Score
http://www.cphiv.dk/TOOLS/EuroSIDARiskScore/tabid/281/Default.aspx

CROI 2009: The case for starting HIV therapy early gets stronger
http://forums.poz.com/index.php?action=profile;u=7990

COMMENT
Starting meds is a choice. Not big for me, big for some others.
Drugs have side effects but HIV as well.
You might start meds and be unfortunate to feel like a shit all your life, but that's the minority of people.
You may also stay out of meds and feel like a shit all your life.
Pushing people to start meds is not the best way to advices people.
But make them afraid to start neither.

The only things that is interesting me in this debate are the cohort studies.

« Last Edit: March 02, 2009, 02:30:56 AM by John2038 »

Offline betonet

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  • Posts: 42
Re: CD4 fast fall
« Reply #17 on: March 04, 2009, 01:04:21 PM »
Talked to my doctor today. In my country docs just S*CK. It is post communistic country with very low HIV infection rates (one of the lowest in the world) and doctors and all people look on you as a pig if they know that you are HIV+.

My doctor told that I should never test and get CD4 count by myself (WHY NOT?!?), and that in middle of april I will make the traditional CD4 and VL tests.
And When I told him I had decline in more that 200 for a month he told me not to bother him with my nonsense/bullshit. This is exactly what he told.

There are 5-6 doctors who manage HIV/AIDS in here, all very conservative, and they start worrying only if your CD4 are under 200. If you have more, they just don't give a f**k about you.
Sorry for my bad language, as I am a little bit frustrated.

So... I will have to wait until april - middle. But until then what I can do is to make after one week myself another CD4 count test, so I can watch the trend. Maybe the last one was a lab mistake.

Cheers
« Last Edit: March 04, 2009, 01:10:31 PM by betonet »
Dec 2008 - diagnosed +
Jan 2009  CD4 550  CD4% ??  VL 40 000
Feb 2009  CD4 330  CD4% 18  VL Unknown
Apr 2009  CD4 406  CD4% 20  VL Unknown
May 2009  CD4 380  CD4% ??  VL 27 000
June 2009 CD4 395  CD4% ??  VL Unknown
Sept 2009 CD4 344  CD4% ??  VL 44 000
Jan   2010 CD4 397  CD4% ??  VL 250 000
May  2010 CD4 370  CD4% 16  VL 750 000
Aug 2010 CD4 385  CD4% 14  VL Unknown
Dec 2010 CD4 315  CD4% ??  VL Unknown
Jan 2010 CD4 285 CD4% ?? VL Unknown
No meds yet

Offline betonet

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  • Posts: 42
Re: CD4 fast fall
« Reply #18 on: April 23, 2009, 04:27:18 PM »
Hi folks, just got final lab results - CD4 - 400, CD4% - 20, which seems a bit better than the previous.
So these number really like to climb up and down.

I also pulled some strings and found a professor who will watch at my results etc. He even proposed me starting meds! Which in my country with CD4 more than 200 is impossible to happen.

Just felt like sharing.

Be well all
betonet
« Last Edit: April 23, 2009, 04:30:55 PM by betonet »
Dec 2008 - diagnosed +
Jan 2009  CD4 550  CD4% ??  VL 40 000
Feb 2009  CD4 330  CD4% 18  VL Unknown
Apr 2009  CD4 406  CD4% 20  VL Unknown
May 2009  CD4 380  CD4% ??  VL 27 000
June 2009 CD4 395  CD4% ??  VL Unknown
Sept 2009 CD4 344  CD4% ??  VL 44 000
Jan   2010 CD4 397  CD4% ??  VL 250 000
May  2010 CD4 370  CD4% 16  VL 750 000
Aug 2010 CD4 385  CD4% 14  VL Unknown
Dec 2010 CD4 315  CD4% ??  VL Unknown
Jan 2010 CD4 285 CD4% ?? VL Unknown
No meds yet

Offline milker

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Re: CD4 fast fall
« Reply #19 on: April 23, 2009, 05:24:07 PM »
Hi Betonet,

can you get a viral load test done? I know it's hard to get in some countries, but if you can, it would also help figuring out the extent of the infection.

Many doctors prefer to have the tests done in laboratories they usually work with because they can compare results from a single source and know how the tests are done and what margin of error to expect.

Milker.
mid-dec: stupid ass
mid-jan: seroconversion
mid-feb: poz
mar 07: cd4 432 (35%) vl 54000
may 07: cd4 399 (28%) vl 27760
jul 07: cd4 403 (26%) vl 99241
oct 07: cd4 353 (24%) vl 29993
jan 08: cd4 332 (26%) vl 33308
mar 08: cd4 392 (23%) vl 75548
jun 08: cd4 325 (27%) vl 45880
oct 08: cd4 197 (20%) vl 154000 <== aids diagnosis
nov 2 08 start Atripla
nov 30 08: cd4 478 (23%) vl 1880 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
feb 19 09: cd4 398 (24%) vl 430 getting there!
apr 23 09: cd4 604 (29%) vl 50 woohoo :D :D
jul 30 09: cd4 512 (29%) vl undetectable :D :D
may 27 10: cd4 655 (32%) vl undetectable :D :D

Now accepting applications from blowjob ninjas™

Offline Inchlingblue

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Re: CD4 fast fall
« Reply #20 on: April 23, 2009, 06:02:27 PM »
  But my CD4 cells tell me that either I am a very fast progressor or there is something else. Will check it up.

My first blood test after being diagnosed August 2008 I had 601 CD4 count. Only 3 weeks later when I was tested again, I had dropped to 312, almost 300 points in 3 weeks!@ My VL was 17k

My doctor wanted another count before considering meds. The next count was taken 4 weeks later and I had climbed back up to 401 with a VL of 17k. My trend based on the last few tests is that I am holding steady in the low 400s as far as Tcells and my VL has gone down to 7k.

I'm convinced that in my particular case that steep 300-point drop was due to major stress and fear and anxiety. I was basically freaking out those first few weeks after finding out and I know that that affected my immune system. My doctor commented that my cortisol levels "are probably through the roof." Cortisol is known as the "stress" hormone, and it's released by the adrenal gland in response to stress and anxiety.

According to wikipedia "Cortisol can weaken the activity of the immune system. Cortisol prevents proliferation of T-cells by rendering the interleukin-2 producer T-cells unresponsive to interleukin-1 (IL-1), and unable to produce the T-cell growth factor.[26] Cortisol has a negative feedback effect on interleukin-1[27] which must be especially useful in combating diseases, such as the endotoxin bacteria, that gain an advantage by forcing the hypothalamus to secrete a hormone called CRH."

You don't mention your state of mind, etc but if by any chance you have also been highly stressed and anxious (as I was) about being poz, that could be enough to cause your tcells to drop.  In most cases, it's important before making the big decision to start meds, to know how your numbers are trending and not base decisions on one (or even two) sets of numbers. I'm convinced that if I had not freaked out so totally as I did, my tcells would still be in the 600-range rather than in the 400-range.

What was your viral load?
« Last Edit: April 23, 2009, 06:04:15 PM by Inchlingblue »

Offline moratorium79

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Re: CD4 fast fall
« Reply #21 on: April 24, 2009, 02:05:55 AM »
I wish you good luck with this Bet, as it can be frightening at times, especially in the beginning.  Please make sure you are in good communication with your physician and make the decisions that you both feel are the correct ones.

As has been stated already, it is important to remember that CD4 levels fluctuate a LOT, all the time.  Try not to get discouraged!
*these are not times for the weak of heart*

Offline randym431

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Re: CD4 fast fall
« Reply #22 on: April 24, 2009, 02:17:35 AM »
Quote
it's time for you to consider starting HAART and you will see your numbers increase
You are not in a hurry doing so, but it would be most probably be this year.
A genotype should be done also.

To John's defense, I didn’t think John was telling anyone what to do. Just his 2cents worth of advice.
I, for one, agree with him. I mean... if I had known before I bombed to 85 I was even pos, I'd started meds early as possible.
For me its just knowing that nasty bug was creeping around doing its damage that freaked me out.
"Undetectable" are is a pretty sweet word to hear from your ID doc after lab results.

But I think everyone here knows we all are just giving advice and our 2 cents worth.
And we really do care, especially in helping others maybe-possibily avoid a nasty situation we might have
went thru. I don’t think any of us here are actual ID doctors. Any advice here should
always be discussed with ones doctor(s) before any action.
We all have a story, experience and advice to share. But thats all it really is, our 2 cents worth.

Offline betonet

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Re: CD4 fast fall
« Reply #23 on: April 24, 2009, 02:04:57 PM »
Inchlingblue, it might have been from stress and cortisol the decline. Who knows.
My VL test will be after 2 weeks so it will be ready maybe after a month. Will see what it will show.

My doc proposed me starting antiretrovirals, but for now I decide not to do so. With CD4 count of 400,
and I recently stopped smoking, I feel a little bit better now and I prefer to see some more test before doing this.

And Antiretrovirals around here are not the best quality. No Atripla No Truvada. No Gilead science products. Which I absolutely prefer if starting meds. Some docs say they might start importing them this year, but will see.  I might consider  buying them  from abroad when it comes to the time.

Be well all!
Dec 2008 - diagnosed +
Jan 2009  CD4 550  CD4% ??  VL 40 000
Feb 2009  CD4 330  CD4% 18  VL Unknown
Apr 2009  CD4 406  CD4% 20  VL Unknown
May 2009  CD4 380  CD4% ??  VL 27 000
June 2009 CD4 395  CD4% ??  VL Unknown
Sept 2009 CD4 344  CD4% ??  VL 44 000
Jan   2010 CD4 397  CD4% ??  VL 250 000
May  2010 CD4 370  CD4% 16  VL 750 000
Aug 2010 CD4 385  CD4% 14  VL Unknown
Dec 2010 CD4 315  CD4% ??  VL Unknown
Jan 2010 CD4 285 CD4% ?? VL Unknown
No meds yet

Offline Inchlingblue

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Re: CD4 fast fall
« Reply #24 on: April 24, 2009, 03:00:19 PM »
What country are you in?

Even though you don't have Atripla, etc, do you have access to some of the better ARV meds such as Epzicom or Reyataz? Remember you also have to do a resistance test to see what you are able to take.

There have been a few threads about generic Atripla, it's called Viraday. That might also be a possibility for you if you are able to afford it?

In your particular situation as far as access to good medications it might be worth holding out before starting meds as long as is reasonably possible if, as you mention, they may begin to import the good meds sometime this year. Maybe you can research this more and see if it is a real possibility that this is likely to happen?
« Last Edit: April 24, 2009, 03:04:11 PM by Inchlingblue »

Offline betonet

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Re: CD4 fast fall
« Reply #25 on: April 25, 2009, 04:30:12 PM »
I live in Sofia, Bulgaria, mate.

Yes, we have Reyataz and Epzicom and all GSK products.

And yes, for now it would maybe better to wait for me before starting any meds. Thanks for suggesting.

Dec 2008 - diagnosed +
Jan 2009  CD4 550  CD4% ??  VL 40 000
Feb 2009  CD4 330  CD4% 18  VL Unknown
Apr 2009  CD4 406  CD4% 20  VL Unknown
May 2009  CD4 380  CD4% ??  VL 27 000
June 2009 CD4 395  CD4% ??  VL Unknown
Sept 2009 CD4 344  CD4% ??  VL 44 000
Jan   2010 CD4 397  CD4% ??  VL 250 000
May  2010 CD4 370  CD4% 16  VL 750 000
Aug 2010 CD4 385  CD4% 14  VL Unknown
Dec 2010 CD4 315  CD4% ??  VL Unknown
Jan 2010 CD4 285 CD4% ?? VL Unknown
No meds yet

 


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