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Author Topic: are we dirty ?  (Read 5467 times)

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Offline sensual1973

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are we dirty ?
« on: April 18, 2009, 09:14:19 AM »
this is the dillema that i go through all the time i get online to meet for some action.i know am only hiv+ with no other STDs or infections,it is just those other negative guys whom i bump into online to meet and get my sexual needs released (safely) am asked by them : "are you STD free?,or are you clean?" i automatically feel dirty and contagious and just close my browser then dip into depression and anxiety.are we dirty?

am very sad
God grant me the serenity to accept the things i can not change.

Offline dtwpuck

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  • дано мне тело, что мне делать с ним?
Re: are we dirty ?
« Reply #1 on: April 18, 2009, 09:46:07 AM »
that use of the word 'clean' PISSES ME OFF.

Just thought I would say that for the record.
Floating through the void in the caress of two giant pink lobsters named Esmerelda and Keith.

Offline David_CA

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Re: are we dirty ?
« Reply #2 on: April 18, 2009, 09:54:28 AM »
I think I've only been asked if I was 'clean' a few times.  I always respond similarly "Well, I take a shower at least once a day but will definitely take another one before we get together.  Are you gonna freshen up too?"  Sometimes the guy will then say that he means am I HIV-, to which I respond "Oh, why didn't you just ask... no, I'm positive."  For whatever reason, it's never really pissed me off.  I think the guys that have asked me ask out of habit.  That is, that's what they've heard in the past.  People's ignorance generally doesn't piss me off as much as it makes me want to correct them.  Of course, I generally don't end up meeting these guys!  Of course, I could just say 'No, I'm dirty... really, really dirty.  Want to hook up?" and see what reaction I get! ;)
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Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: are we dirty ?
« Reply #3 on: April 18, 2009, 10:32:47 AM »
Ugh, I just ignore it.  It's like being offended by something written on a dirty bathroom stall.  *HELLO* internet.  If it's causing you to be depressed then take a break from the on-line world.
"I’ve slept with enough men to know that I’m not gay"

Offline bear60

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Re: are we dirty ?
« Reply #4 on: April 18, 2009, 10:49:25 AM »
I would say that "if you cant take the heat get out of the kitchen".  If you havent developed that "hard skin" about the use of those words "dirty" and "clean",   then you should not be online looking to hook up.
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Offline Ann

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Re: are we dirty ?
« Reply #5 on: April 18, 2009, 11:05:15 AM »
Sensual,

Before you let one of these guys get to you and allow them (yes, you have a choice over how you react to what people say) to make you feel bad about yourself again, consider this:

Many of these guys only THINK they're hiv negative. Serosorting just doesn't work for hiv negative people. Why? Because how many of these guys have hooked up with someone they thought was "clean", because they said they were "clean", all the while not realising they were positive? Allegedly negative serosorters are only fooling themselves with the "clean" issue, and alienating a whole lot of people into the bargain.

Why would you want to hook up with a fool? I sure wouldn't.

Don't ever allow ANYONE to make you feel bad about yourself. What they say is a reflection on them, not you.

Ann
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Offline sensual1973

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Re: are we dirty ?
« Reply #6 on: April 18, 2009, 11:15:16 AM »
i appreciate all of your responses and i am very happy to have you all arround for the support.
God bless.
God grant me the serenity to accept the things i can not change.

Offline mjmel

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Re: are we dirty ?
« Reply #7 on: April 18, 2009, 11:30:59 AM »
check out the excellent reply #13: http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=26703.0

you wrote that you 'automatically' think of yourself as dirty. i hope that changes. i hope you come to understand being HIV+ is something you have to live with...to adjust to......but you can still be your wonderful, sensual self towards those who don't mind at all.

imo, just because a person does not want to hook up with HIV+ person for a sex romp doesn't make him/her a bad person or a person with a bad attitude. of course, if they'd treat you badly in any way then that's a whole other matter, isn't it.

Mike

Offline Assurbanipal

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Re: are we dirty ?
« Reply #8 on: April 18, 2009, 11:39:57 AM »
...are we dirty?

Well, I have a filthy imagination.      ;)


But I rather thought that was the point
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Offline Theadora

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Re: are we dirty ?
« Reply #9 on: April 18, 2009, 11:49:31 AM »
Hello,
I am new to these forums & will introduce myself shortly.
I just wanted to give you this quote which I try to
remember myself often...

"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent."
Eleanor Roosevelt

Offline next2u

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Re: are we dirty ?
« Reply #10 on: April 18, 2009, 12:47:43 PM »
when i hunt (which i haven't done in a few months ... there's a cute guy in the mix) my status is posted. it keeps the scared guys out of the loop. i still get a ton of hits and people who are interested. it's one less thing to disclose, makes using condoms a non-issue and allows us to concentrate on the issue at hand.

if they ask if im dirty i let them know i can be but a lady doesn't do those things on the first date :  )
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Offline Inchlingblue

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Re: are we dirty ?
« Reply #11 on: April 18, 2009, 12:56:33 PM »
While I'm not at all condoning the use of the word "clean" in the context described by the OP, I was reading a book recently that used the word in a similar context and it prompted me to look up the word "clean" in the dictionary.  It's one of those obvious words that we all know and so we never bother to actually look it up.

The book I was reading is an autobiography and it was describing a woman in the 1940s who had gotten cancer and the author describes that after her operation she was "clean." And how later it wasn't certain if she was "clean." It reminded me of people online who use the word as described by the original OP and when I looked it up in the dictionary in fact one of the definitions for the word "clean" is "free from contamination or disease."

Personally, I think it's wrong to use it to describe anyone with any disease, no matter what the dictionary says. Technically, though, I suppose it can be used that way and shouldn't necessarily be offensive if looked at in a more detached way.

What Ann said is true, many of these people who want to make sure that someone is "clean" are not "clean" themselves and don't even know it.  Some of them will hook up with a person who says they are "clean" and even bareback with them, which is much riskier than using a condom with someone who is not "clean."
« Last Edit: April 18, 2009, 01:37:29 PM by Inchlingblue »

Offline BM

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Re: are we dirty ?
« Reply #12 on: April 18, 2009, 01:00:23 PM »
Maybe the following is a bit off topic, anyway...

There are immunodeficiency viruses that affect other animals: monkeys (SIV), cats (FIV), horses (EIA), and various other animals. Are they objectively "dirty"? Or is the whole concept of being dirty because of HIV an entirely irrational man-made concept? I think so: HIV is, after all, just another virus among thousands that affect us.

Offline FrederickGNP+USA

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O
« Reply #13 on: April 18, 2009, 02:11:41 PM »
Yea that is and old term people uses about clean and old woment like to gossip about other family having a unclean house ... old tream.

It surly hurts my feelings in the past when my Gay brother would use that term and every hurts some times when they many have to tattoo there latters all over them that I am DDF.. wow if one have to say that it makes me wonder.

Any way I use a meditation to over come that if it comes up in my thinking That what God calls clean let no man or woman call unclean.. and I choice to thing and meditate that GOD has called me clean.

I also when through a experience in the past many years ago that I though God gave me HIV.. oh get that my meditation was holding my head down at one time to think I was unclean and God give me HIV and killed all my friends for being human and sexual.

However one day I my journey I was seting in a study group of progress loving caring people and my Priest at the time a Father ED RICH ... slamed his hand on the table to state loudly in a red bold face .. GOD DOESN'T GIVE ANYONE AIDS FOR HE IS ABOUT LOVE. 

Offline FrederickGNP+USA

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Re: are we dirty ?
« Reply #14 on: April 18, 2009, 02:17:28 PM »
POZ COMMUNITY,

That day I when back home and called a friend that was HIV positive and told him what my Priest had said.  I stated it out loud to him, guess what. I am happy today, for my Priest stated that God did not give me AIDS.  We both cried overwhemingly to begin to heal from the dark stima of our community for that day part of me was healed and free to love more of myself, my community and my God.


What a wonderful day that was

Frederick Wright
GNP+USA
Frederickgnp@aol.com

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: are we dirty ?
« Reply #15 on: April 18, 2009, 02:49:52 PM »
Well, Fred, why would you think God gave you teh AIDS in the first place?  Does he give people paper cuts?
"I’ve slept with enough men to know that I’m not gay"

Offline denb45

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Re: are we dirty ?
« Reply #16 on: April 18, 2009, 02:52:26 PM »
this is the dillema that i go through all the time i get online to meet for some action.i know am only hiv+ with no other STDs or infections,it is just those other negative guys whom i bump into online to meet and get my sexual needs released (safely) am asked by them : "are you STD free?,or are you clean?" i automatically feel dirty and contagious and just close my browser then dip into depression and anxiety.are we dirty?

am very sad

Well, all of the NEGs all say that, but, most of them don't even know if they even have HIV or STDs,  most don't even care, so, I would say, it swings both ways, I just laugh at ANYONE who tells me that, what a bunch of BULL, Please don't believe everything you here someone say or post in a profile over the internet, until you've investigated it further, some people are truthful, but a lot of others are NOT  :D I've never been ask that  (I always tell my status up front), but, if I was, I'd say "Well just how dirty do you want me to Get" and if we can't get dirty together, then for-get-about-it, cause, I'm not interested
« Last Edit: April 18, 2009, 03:07:37 PM by denb45 »
"it's so nice to be insane, cause no-one ask you to explain" Helen Reddy cc 1974

Offline FrederickGNP+USA

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Re: are we dirty ?
« Reply #17 on: April 18, 2009, 03:01:10 PM »
I agree with you about believing the DDF free dudes for if they are crusing looking for a little funny they could be the first guys  to put the powder up thier noise  and odds are that they might be one of the 250,000 folks that the CDC believes are walking aroung HIV positive and have not clue of their status abd creating a factor of more HIV cases.. I think it is more like 1/2 million folks that don't  think they are HIV postive and hope they find the courage to get tested.

Peace

Frederick Wright
GNP+USA

Offline FrederickGNP+USA

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Re: are we dirty ?
« Reply #18 on: April 18, 2009, 03:15:48 PM »
Missy,

I love you humor sometimes and thank you for talking to me.  Well it was dogma of the past and what I call this dark cloud of stigma ( secedes, shame and guilt from the community here in the South)in my life from working through being Gay and HIV.  Plus at the time I though I was dieing and want my after life to be with God, for the relationship to me is important in tiring to be honest and loving and kind in my journey.. Simply put I love the Lord and found the Lord loves me just the way I am  and hopfully learning and healing in this light of  love that I have with my creator and this life.  I am blessed with each day and proudly Thank God for making me who I am.

Sometimes I can be passive and other very aggressive in stirring up the pot of activism for lots of people dislike me, one day and love me the next, for I see it a being a human. And boy many have tried to through me under the bus or do a hit job on me, but still fighting a good fight.  ::)

When are we getting together Missy and where are you?.. I think Tomboy, Ann and you, along with one of your favorits me, should get together and have HOOKA party.  I must admit I am having a little fantasy about Tim-bo for his intellect is very attractive to me.


Offline FrederickGNP+USA

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Re: are we dirty ?
« Reply #19 on: April 18, 2009, 03:18:15 PM »
Sorry typo..I ment to type TIM-BO..(spell check change it, do not want to offend anyone) for in the South the bo part is an enduring term of  affection...


Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: are we dirty ?
« Reply #20 on: April 18, 2009, 03:26:15 PM »
Missy,

I love you humor sometimes and thank you for talking to me.  Well it was dogma of the past and what I call this dark cloud of stigma ( secedes, shame and guilt from the community here in the South)

I would have thought that the nation's first Grand Marshall for Southern Decadence (1974 wasn't it?) would have fully expunged any vestigial traces of childhood guilt.  It's almost as if you went backwards at some point, don't you think?
"I’ve slept with enough men to know that I’m not gay"

Offline Assurbanipal

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Re: are we dirty ?
« Reply #21 on: April 18, 2009, 04:10:18 PM »
Well, Fred, why would you think God gave you teh AIDS in the first place?  Does he give people paper cuts?

Them's stigmata dear.
5/06 VL 1M+, CD4 22, 5% , pneumonia, thrush -- O2 support 2 months, 6/06 +Kaletra/Truvada
9/06 VL 3959 CD4 297 13.5% 12/06 VL <400 CD4 350 15.2% +Pravachol
2007 VL<400, 70, 50 CD4 408-729 16.0% -19.7%
2008 VL UD CD4 468 - 538 16.7% - 24.6% Osteoporosis 11/08 doubled Pravachol, +Calcium/D
02/09 VL 100 CD4 616 23.7% 03/09 VL 130 5/09 VL 100 CD4 540 28.4% +Actonel (osteoporosis) 7/09 VL 130
8/09  new regimen Isentress/Epzicom 9/09 VL UD CD4 621 32.7% 11/09 VL UD CD4 607 26.4% swap Isentress for Prezista/Norvir 12/09 (liver and muscle issues) VL 50
2010 VL UD CD4 573-680 26.1% - 30.9% 12/10 VL 20
2011 VL UD-20 CD4 568-673 24.7%-30.6%
2012 VL UD swap Prezista/Norvir for Reyataz drop statin CD4 768-828 26.7%-30.7%

Offline FrederickGNP+USA

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Re: are we dirty ?
« Reply #22 on: April 18, 2009, 04:20:57 PM »
Oh missy their you go diverting away from you love for me.   I was only 13 years in 74.. I don't think I had my frist orgaism yet.. but loving life now are free to be me.. All is good.. very good... and What God has called clean, let know man or woman call unclean... I am very clean hear.. Ivory Fresh....

Peace

Frederick

Offline clsoca

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Re: are we dirty ?
« Reply #23 on: April 18, 2009, 04:25:09 PM »
I feel that I am cleaner that most people on line because I am honest about my status and I use a condom.

Most people I have ran across in Boys Town (west-hollywood) and on line are dirty because they don't know their status, claim to be STD free and in many instances don't use condoms.

So really......who is clean and who is dirty. Just my prospective.

Oh...I once saw a guy at the Faultline, http://www.faultlinebar.com/ with a tattoo above the crack of his ass that read: "USE CAUTION POZ." I thought it was funny...he was hot too.  
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Offline AlanBama

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Re: are we dirty ?
« Reply #24 on: April 20, 2009, 12:24:31 PM »
to the OP:

don't let them make you feel dirty, bad, or guilty.

Just tell them to keep on having sex with the 'clean' ones, and that you'll see them later on at the clinic....

It's all bullsh*t.   I usually call it that, to the guys who state "will bareback with Neg guys".  DUH
"Remember my sentimental friend that a heart is not judged by how much you love, but by how much you are loved by others." - The Wizard of Oz

Online mecch

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Re: are we dirty ?
« Reply #25 on: April 20, 2009, 02:06:12 PM »
I have been poz less than a year. This topic comes up regularly in these threads. I share your reaction, its seems normal and human.  What can we do, though?  People are clumsy. 

Probably all sorts of possibilities exist for people who are clumsy enough to use the word clean and also "disease free" almost as creepy, now for me. Some might be a**holes, some stupid, ignorant, or whatever. 

If it is an online communication, remember that it is the "online language" conventions that lead people to express things certain ways, and using certain terms.  People just don't think so much about language - just follow the convention.  So, sad, but true, "clean" in online language means HIV-. 

I think much less likely to be asked while on a date, with romantic possibilities "are you clean"? etc.

I have heard it in sex-only RDV however, so the Internet "sex hookup" language creeps into face-to-face communication.

Personally, HIV does not make me feel "dirty". But sometimes I feel it is a scarlet letter, or a threat. Hopefully I'll meet a partner who can deal with it and I'll deal with it better and better with time, myself.
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline denb45

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Re: are we dirty ?
« Reply #26 on: April 20, 2009, 02:39:17 PM »

Personally, HIV does not make me feel "dirty". But sometimes I feel it is a scarlet letter, or a threat. Hopefully I'll meet a partner who can deal with it and I'll deal with it better and better with time, myself.

I'm very sorry you feel that way about being HIV+ I sure don't, but, after almost 20 yrs. why the Hell would I  ??? whoever told you that being HIV+ is a scarlet letter, or a threat, they are just stupid and ignorant.........
« Last Edit: April 20, 2009, 02:42:29 PM by denb45 »
"it's so nice to be insane, cause no-one ask you to explain" Helen Reddy cc 1974

Offline mewithu

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Re: are we dirty ?
« Reply #27 on: April 20, 2009, 03:14:23 PM »
We all get dirty do you wash up before you go out. I know I do wash and clean before I go for a date or even go out for the evening. Come on are they dirty
1997 is when I found out, being deathly ill. I had to go to the hospital due to extreme headache and fever. I fell coma like,  two months later weighing 95 pounds and in extreme pain and awoke to knowledge of Pancreatis, Cryptococcal Meningitis, Thrush,Severe Diarea,  Wasting, PCP pneumonia. No eating, only through tpn. Very sick, I was lucky I had good insurance with the company I worked for. I was in the hospital for three months that time. 
(2010 Now doing OK cd4=210  VL= < 75)
I have become resistant to many nukes and non nukes, Now on Reyataz, , Combivir. Working well for me not too many side effects.  I have the wasting syndrome, Fatigue  . Hard to deal with but believe it or not I have been through worse. Three Pulmonary Embolism's in my life. 2012 520 t's <20 V load

Offline Ann

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Re: are we dirty ?
« Reply #28 on: April 20, 2009, 05:37:48 PM »
Mecch, I don't know how old you happen to be, but clean has been a euphemism for disease or STI free for absolute eons now, since long before the internet was old enough to have it's own "language".

Condoms are a girl's best friend

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"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline Dachshund

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Re: are we dirty ?
« Reply #29 on: April 20, 2009, 05:42:00 PM »
Dirty can be hot.

Offline md

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Re: are we dirty ?
« Reply #30 on: April 20, 2009, 06:00:34 PM »
Dirty can be hot.

Woody Allen had the answer to this:
Quote
Is sex dirty?
Only if it's done right.

Offline Tempeboy

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Re: are we dirty ?
« Reply #31 on: April 20, 2009, 06:25:58 PM »
are we dirty  ?


No.

 ;D

« Last Edit: April 20, 2009, 06:27:34 PM by Tempeboy »
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Offline Ann

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Re: are we dirty ?
« Reply #32 on: April 20, 2009, 06:58:45 PM »
Clean can be cold.





Especially if you take a cold shower.
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"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline dtwpuck

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Re: are we dirty ?
« Reply #33 on: April 20, 2009, 09:10:08 PM »
There's a certain defense mechanism that leads a lot of people to say things like "it doesn't matter to me what other people say, they are just words", or "it's the way people speak on the Internet." 

Let's not forget that there is no such thing as "it's just words".  We use words, language, to communicate.  Apart from body language, it's the only way humans communicate.    And, if you need evidence where words actually do matter, just utter out loud words like "nigger, fag, cunt".   These words have a lot of power and using them strategically can have devastating effect.

So, writing off a word like "clean" as a euphemism for "undiseased" as harmless Internet jargon strkes me as little more than a defense mechanism.  And, it is a mighty weak one at best.   The "tell it to the hand" defense strikes most people with the slightest bit of people sense as artificial posturing designed to put a bandaid on an already deep cut.

People say what they mean, even when it is couched as "just kidding" or "I didn't know".  I am no stranger to cruising online and I have very little tolerance for ignorance, whether online or in person.   People like to act like "it's just the Internet".  The fact is, and always will be, that there is a living, breathing person on the other side of Manhunt.   

I will continue to fight to expunge the meaning of "clean" as a synonym for "not having a disease" just as ardently as many of us have fought to expunge the use of formerly acceptable words such as "nigger, wetback or dyke".   Words always matter.
Floating through the void in the caress of two giant pink lobsters named Esmerelda and Keith.

Online mecch

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Re: are we dirty ?
« Reply #34 on: April 20, 2009, 10:20:56 PM »
I didn't say it was harmless.  I think there is not much we can do about gay guys on chat and cruise sites using the word "clean" to refer to HIV-.  I think it sucks but its just words.  My grandmother still uses the word "colored" for African-Americans or blacks.  I don't think it means all that much.  As I said, I think some people who say clean for HIV- are a**holes, some are ignorant - you have to take it on an invidividual basis and decide how to react.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2009, 10:22:40 PM by mecch »
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline dtwpuck

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Re: are we dirty ?
« Reply #35 on: April 20, 2009, 10:31:54 PM »
My grandmother still uses the word "colored" for African-Americans or blacks.  I don't think it means very much.

Tell that to the celebrity guttersnipe who referred to Obama as the first colored president.   As I recall, she found herself in the center of a shitstorm.   I personally cringe every time I hear that word, and I grew up in a place that is as white as they come.   And, if words don't matter, well, then why do you choose yours?   I'm sure it isn't because you like the sound.   Every word has a meaning, a denotation and the all important connotation.  Every sentence is uttered to convey an intention.  It is that intention that is communicated.  While you can process your grandmother's intention as harmless, it is not so easy for someone who doesn't know her to do so.  Words are chosen and understood by a phenomenon called universal consensus.  That consensus can, and does, change.  I am not saying that I, alone, can change the world.  But I guarantee that sitting back and saying nothing at all will definitely NOT change it.   For me, such complacency is not an option.   

And, it has happened several times that I have explained my distaste for the word 'clean' in reference to 'disease free' while cruising online.  The reactions have usually been something along the line of a eureka moment where the guy on the other side ends up realizing how it must feel.  Not always, but often enough to make the effort worthwhile. 

So, I respectfully, albeit strongly, disagree with your position.

Floating through the void in the caress of two giant pink lobsters named Esmerelda and Keith.

Offline Dennis

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Re: are we dirty ?
« Reply #36 on: April 21, 2009, 12:06:26 AM »
I understand the point you are trying to make. However, I believe words have as much power as we the people are willing to give them.

Take for example the word "fag." While that word may have been hurtfull to many years ago, the gay community has been successfull in reclaiming the word. 

Don't get me wrong. I have been bruised by words in the past. Most notably in my last relationship. Hearing things like "I'm intellectually superior to you", especially from someone you love can be devastating at the moment and time they're said. If you think about it though, most people who use words to degrade another are usually trying to compensate for their own shortcomings.

There's an old yet simple saying that still remains true today. "Stick and stones may break my bones but names will never hurt me."

Ciao,
Dennis

There's a certain defense mechanism that leads a lot of people to say things like "it doesn't matter to me what other people say, they are just words", or "it's the way people speak on the Internet."...

Offline Lou-ah-vull

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Re: are we dirty ?
« Reply #37 on: April 21, 2009, 12:12:21 AM »
Even "drug/disease free" is so vague as to be meaningless.  I would think that those who wish to not have sex with HIV+ persons should be explicit and say so without the vague reference to "clean" or "disease free" whatever the hell that really means. 

Of course, most of us on here know how ridiculous it is for someone to rely on another's statement that they are "clean", "disease free" or their alleged recent (usually not) test results.  For some, internet hookups are about fantasy fulfillment and I guess it is their prerogative to desire their fantasy.  That does not mean that we have to indulge their fantasy by pretending it isn't essentially ridiculous and most likely, dangerous.

Live and learn!  I did....
 :)
Diagnosed Oct. 2005
10/05:  367 (26.2%), 24556 VL
01/06:  344 (24.6%), 86299 VL
04/06:  374 (22.0%), 87657 VL
05/06:  Began HAART 05/15/06, Combivir/Kaletra
07/06:  361 (27.8%), 1299 VL
10/06:  454 (32.4%), 55 VL
01/07:  499 (38.4%), UD
02/07:  Switched to Atripla 2/8/07
04/07:  566 (37.7%), UD
08/07:  761 (42.3%), UD
06/08:  659 (47.1%), UD
01/09:  613 (43.8%), UD
07/09:  616 (47.4%), UD
01/10:  530 (44.2%), UD
07/10:  636 (48.9%), UD
01/11:  627 (48.2%), UD
07/11:  840 (52.5%), UD
01/12:  920 (51.1%), UD
07/12:  857 (50.4%), 40
10/12:  UD
01/13:  710 (47.3%), UD
07/13:  886 (49.2%), UD
01/14:  985 (46.9%), UD
06/14:  823 (47.2%), UD

Online mecch

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Re: are we dirty ?
« Reply #38 on: April 21, 2009, 01:08:08 AM »
And, it has happened several times that I have explained my distaste for the word 'clean' in reference to 'disease free' while cruising online.  The reactions have usually been something along the line of a eureka moment where the guy on the other side ends up realizing how it must feel.  Not always, but often enough to make the effort worthwhile. 

So, I respectfully, albeit strongly, disagree with your position.
Seems like you see something in my comments that i do not intend. I think what you say to online chatters is good and helpful. No argument there.  I am not complacent.

The ones who have the "Eureka" moment are the clumsy word users. Once you make them think about it, they see it from a wider perspective than their own. Other guys no doubt consider HIV dirty and really mean "clean" almost literally, so these are the a**holes -- and I'm not going to invest too much in these people. Kudos to those who do the education there. I would never knock them.

The original poster, posts a topic that is something all HIV+ people have to process ("are we dirty" because others or ourselves think so...) and some process it faster than others. 

Whats the point get nit-picky with me when these forums are filled with HIV+ people talking about the stigma of being HIV and the machinations we go through in dating, love, sex, negotiating sero-discordant relations, which is what the original poster is asking about.  
« Last Edit: April 21, 2009, 01:10:29 AM by mecch »
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline dtwpuck

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Re: are we dirty ?
« Reply #39 on: April 21, 2009, 06:40:44 AM »
The point is that stating something like "it doesn't matter" that someone uses the word "clean" is a complacent strategy.  It allows for that stigma you refer to to continue in subtle and insidious ways that hurt people trying to develop relationships, improve their self esteem etc.    Like you, I don't particularly need help fending off stupid people.  Unfortunately, most of us have to interact with a bunch of ignorant people every day.  Alleviating that ignorance is definitely a worthwhile task.
Floating through the void in the caress of two giant pink lobsters named Esmerelda and Keith.

Offline Ann

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Re: are we dirty ?
« Reply #40 on: April 23, 2009, 07:47:52 AM »

My grandmother still uses the word "colored" for African-Americans or blacks. 
.

My mother uses that term and always has, except when she's not bothering to even attempt to be remotely PC - then she uses the N word.

Even when I was very young (3 y/o on up) I hated that term. I'd say to my mother, "What colour are they? Green? Purple? Orange? ??? Aren't they just people like us?"

Never did get a satisfactory answer.

I grew up in a very bigoted, racist and homophobic household. My sister was disowned when she came out as a lesbian. I rebelled against my upbringing ever since I can remember - the things my mother would say just felt so WRONG - even to my toddler ears. It's all part of the cycle of abuse that I decided would end with me. I can't change my mother, but I can - and have - change(d) me.

Ann
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"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline dixieman

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Re: are we dirty ?
« Reply #41 on: April 23, 2009, 11:06:42 AM »
sensual no your not dirty... you have a viral disease ... on the sex sites your putting your health more at risk... the boys who are on them probally never have been tested for std's and or rarely and carrying all kind of goodies for you to catch. So take for what it is... you know your status... many do not... the sex sites for instant hookups are a cestpool for STD's so always use precaution.

Offline Joe K

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Re: are we dirty ?
« Reply #42 on: April 23, 2009, 12:50:59 PM »
i automatically feel dirty and contagious and just close my browser then dip into depression and anxiety.are we dirty?

I was ready to add my opinions about the word "clean", until I reread your post and realized that my opinion regarding a word, will not help to answer your question.  Mainly because I think you are asking the wrong question.  Given what you wrote, I believe the real question is: Why do you automatically feel dirty and contagious when you think about your HIV infection?  I would suggest that it is not so much the use of the word "clean" as it is your reaction to the word, based on your personal perceptions.  Granted, words have power and that power can come from many sources, whether it be history, culture or accepted usage.  Ultimately though, it is our internal perceptions that govern the true impact of words upon ourselves.

I share your distaste in using clean to describe a persons health status, but I think I understand how you feel, because we have all been there.  When I became infected I also felt dirty and contagious and believed that I would die sick and alone.  It was a difficult time and it took years, but I could never dismiss those ideas, about myself, until I forgave myself for whatever role I played in becoming poz.  My point here is that you are a man with HIV.  I urge you to reject the idea that your infection defines either who or what you are.  I urge you to look inside and explore why you perceive yourself in such a negative light.

I've been poz for 24 years and I would never had made it this far, unless I believed in my own humanity and dignity.  The feelings that you are experiencing are perfectly normal, but you will ultimately discover that they are self defeating.  You must believe in yourself and that includes forgiving yourself.  The hows and whys of your infection do not matter, what matters is how you see yourself today, not in the light of mistakes gone by. If you insist on holding onto the past, you will never be able to reach forward into your future.  The real issue here is you and how you feel about yourself and what you can do to alter those perceptions.  Never forget that feelings are neither good nor bad, they just are.  However, when you experience feelings that severely impact your perceptions, you should reconsider the validity of those feelings.

Words will always hold meaning, as that is how we communicate, but this is not a war of words.  Rather it is your reaction to a word, that reflects how you personally feel about your own infection.  I believe we all understand what you are asking, but I suggest you will not find your answer in this post.

Offline Inchlingblue

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Re: are we dirty ?
« Reply #43 on: April 28, 2009, 06:53:28 PM »
I was reading an article in Discovery Channel online about the patient in Germany who was cured of AIDS through a bone marrow transplant with a donor that has the Delta 32 mutation. The article ended with this sentence,

"Researchers at Berlin's Charite hospital and medical school say tests on his bone marrow, blood and other organ tissues have all been clean."

It reminded me of this thread.

LINK:

http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2008/11/13/bone-marrow-aids.html
« Last Edit: April 28, 2009, 06:56:08 PM by Inchlingblue »

Offline mjmel

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Re: are we dirty ?
« Reply #44 on: April 29, 2009, 08:13:09 AM »
My mother uses that term and always has, except when she's not bothering to even attempt to be remotely PC - then she uses the N word.

Even when I was very young (3 y/o on up) I hated that term. I'd say to my mother, "What colour are they? Green? Purple? Orange? ??? Aren't they just people like us?"

Never did get a satisfactory answer.

I grew up in a very bigoted, racist and homophobic household. My sister was disowned when she came out as a lesbian. I rebelled against my upbringing ever since I can remember - the things my mother would say just felt so WRONG - even to my toddler ears. It's all part of the cycle of abuse that I decided would end with me. I can't change my mother, but I can - and have - change(d) me.

Ann

>>>>>>hijack in progress<<<<<

WOW, Ann.
You really must come to an AMG.

>>>>>>>end hijack<<<<<<<<


Mike

Offline Ann

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Re: are we dirty ?
« Reply #45 on: April 29, 2009, 08:17:56 AM »
>>>>>>hijack in progress<<<<<

WOW, Ann.
You really must come to an AMG.

>>>>>>>end hijack<<<<<<<<


Mike

Hopefully I will some day, after I renew my passport and win the lottery. ;D If RAB reads my passport comment, he's gonna kick my ass. :o

Ann
Condoms are a girl's best friend

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"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline denb45

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Re: are we dirty ?
« Reply #46 on: April 29, 2009, 10:26:32 AM »
Hopefully I will some day, after I renew my passport and win the lottery. ;D If RAB reads my passport comment, he's gonna kick my ass. :o

Ann


Ann you haven't missed anything, the USA is still Fucked up as ever, and it's even worse now.......
"it's so nice to be insane, cause no-one ask you to explain" Helen Reddy cc 1974

Offline elf

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Re: are we dirty ?
« Reply #47 on: April 29, 2009, 01:56:11 PM »
I don't feel dirty, I feel clean like a child,
my psychologist told me I'm in the regression phase (being asexual...)
You shouldn't care what other people say :)
Let's have a Kiki!

Online mecch

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Re: are we dirty ?
« Reply #48 on: May 07, 2009, 06:56:11 PM »
Typical gay cruise chat site ad in French-speaking Switzerland:

Headline:  "Regardez mon statut, il vous indiquera ce que je recherche... Svp lisez bien mon profil avant de m'écrire !"

Translation:  Look at my headline, it indicates to you what I'm looking for. Please read my profile well before your write to me.

OK, then the profile, exact quote, and no other text whatsoever:

Ne reçoit pas
Pics sur demande
Les mecs pas clean, merci de ne pas m'écrire.


Translation:
I do not host
Pics if you ask
Guy who are not "clean", please do not write to me.

relationship status:  no entry
Safesex: always
 
26.189cm.75kg - 6'2".165lbs  (XL cock, cut)

This chat site does not have a place, like on Manhunt, or Adam4Adam, where you indicate your HIV status.

In all of Switzerland, with tens of thousands of people registered, if you search for HIV+ or seropo or any indication that someone might be HIV+, you get a couple dozen at best.

As an experiment, I created a new profile where I listed my satus, not to mention other more attractive features of who I am.  Not a single message in weeks on that profile. 


“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

 


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