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Author Topic: is it true that elisa and the western blot can be decieving  (Read 3149 times)

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Offline moskimo

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is it true that elisa and the western blot can be decieving
« on: April 05, 2009, 03:20:18 PM »
i just saw a website that is saying a different thing from what i ve heard and read please can someone check it out (deleted URL).i just want to know what to do because i am about to start my medications in a weeks time.according to this site,the elisa test kit is not sensitive to only the hiv antibodies alone,and there are more than seventy health conditions that can elicit a false positive result in an elisa and wesern blot test kit what do you think people.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2009, 03:31:17 PM by Ann »

Offline Andy Velez

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Re: is it true that elisa and the western blot can be decieving
« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2009, 03:25:08 PM »
Although from time to time we do hear of a false positive on the ELISA, any positive result on an ELISA is always confirmed by a western blot test. The western blot is very specific and its result always trumps an ELISA result.

I don't know where you are reading about problems with the western blot. I don't know of any occasions in which the western blot turned out to be wrong.

Are there any extenuating circumstances in your case involving organ transplant, extended IV drug use or a severely compromised immune system such as from cancer treatment that might have caused a delayed positive or otherwise affected your result? But those circumstances are ones in which testing out to six months is recommended to get a reliable result.

Have you expressed your concern to your doctor?
« Last Edit: April 05, 2009, 03:29:02 PM by Andy Velez »
Andy Velez

Offline Ann

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Re: is it true that elisa and the western blot can be decieving
« Reply #2 on: April 05, 2009, 03:29:43 PM »
Moskimo,

I edited your post to delete the name of the website you mention. That website is written by people who are known as hiv denialist, and denialist materials are NOT permitted on this website. Please do NOT re-post the name of that website. Thank you for your cooperation.

Hiv denialist claim that hiv does not cause aids. This is dangerous because it stops people seeking treatment for hiv.

The hiv antibody test, backed up with a positive Western Blot, means you have hiv, no matter what hiv denialist say about it.

Did you read the responses you got to your first thread? Please read them. http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=26526.0 You should not base your when-to-start treatment decisions on CD4 results from blood taken when you're ill with something like shingles.

Ann
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline Alefou

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Re: is it true that elisa and the western blot can be decieving
« Reply #3 on: April 06, 2009, 12:42:51 PM »
Ann,

Just saying that false positive western blot do occurs (very rarely but it does). Juste type false western blot on google and you will see several unexplain case of repetedly false positive results.

For info : http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=10789104

http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/280/12/1080

Copy of the last link :
"Of 421 donors who were positive for HIV-1 by Western blot, 39 (9.3%) met the criteria of possible false positivity because they lacked reactivity to p31. Of these, 20 (51.3%) were proven by PCR not to be infected with HIV-1. The false-positive prevalence was 4.8% of Western blot–positive donors and 0.0004% (1 in 251000) of all donors (95% confidence interval, 1 in 173000 to 1 in 379000 donors)."


"A false diagnosis of HIV-1 infection can result from the combination of EIA and Western blot testing in blood donor and other HIV-1 screening programs. Individuals with a positive Western blot result lacking the p31 band should be counseled that, although they may be HIV infected, there is uncertainty about this conclusion. These individuals should be further evaluated by RNA PCR testing (if feasible) and HIV serologic analysis on a follow-up sample."
« Last Edit: April 06, 2009, 12:46:16 PM by Alefou »
12/16/2008 : Probable infection
12/26/2008 : ARS (Flu for one week)
01/15/2009 : HIV rapid test neg
01/28/2009 : Rapid test poz
01/31/2009 : Two EIA Poz
02/03/2009 : WB pos, CD4 : 832 (32%), VL : 116k copies/ml
03/08/2009 : CD4 : 836 (38%), VL : 104k

Offline Ann

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Re: is it true that elisa and the western blot can be decieving
« Reply #4 on: April 06, 2009, 01:11:22 PM »
Ale,

That's not what Moskimo was talking about. He'd been reading a denialist website and they claim that ALL hiv tests are wrong.

I'd also like to point out that the two articles you cite are BOTH more than ten years old. Testing methods have moved on since then and false positives are RARE.

Ann
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline Alefou

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  • Posts: 62
Re: is it true that elisa and the western blot can be decieving
« Reply #5 on: April 06, 2009, 01:26:31 PM »
Ann,

Of course I completly agree with you and those false positive are EXTREMLY rare.

But it's wrong to say that a positive EIA and WB means 100 % sure that the person is contaminated ( even if the probability that he has HIV is more than 99.99999 %)

I say that because Andy said "I don't know of any occasions in which the western blot turned out to be wrong. ". But such case happened. Generaly, PCR can rule out false positive.

I just wanted to point out that nothing is 100% in science and such things can happen (I remember to have read a testimony of a guy on the body.com who was EIA and WB + and found out one year later that he was negative)
« Last Edit: April 06, 2009, 01:28:02 PM by Alefou »
12/16/2008 : Probable infection
12/26/2008 : ARS (Flu for one week)
01/15/2009 : HIV rapid test neg
01/28/2009 : Rapid test poz
01/31/2009 : Two EIA Poz
02/03/2009 : WB pos, CD4 : 832 (32%), VL : 116k copies/ml
03/08/2009 : CD4 : 836 (38%), VL : 104k

Offline moskimo

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  • Posts: 31
Re: is it true that elisa and the western blot can be decieving
« Reply #6 on: April 06, 2009, 02:16:11 PM »
Hi Ann, i am sorry if i went over the boundry as regards my last post.please i want you to advice me what to do because by thursday next wk i will be commencing my treatment, this is what my doctor said.Now the shingles are gone and i am strong again,i ve regained my strenght,last week like i said in my firt post that my cd4 count was 750 in jan,157 two wks ago and 135 last wk,why did it go down that fast. please what do i do,should i go ahead and start treatment or should i do another blood test. i was thinking that this is it,i am down with aids and there is no going back,but since two days ago i am up and about and my apitite has returned now i am eating like there is no tomorrow.

Offline Ann

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  • It just is, OK?
    • Num is sum qui mentiar tibi?
Re: is it true that elisa and the western blot can be decieving
« Reply #7 on: April 06, 2009, 02:18:05 PM »
Ale,

Andy was speaking of his own experience. He's been active in the field of hiv prevention and testing since the pandemic began - and that vast experience should tell you just how rare it is for the WB to be wrong.

The ELISA is more prone to false positives - often due to an underlying autoimmune disease or pregnancy. That's why there are checks and balances in place to make sure, to the very best of modern science's ability, that people don't slip through the net - either way - when testing.

Please don't think I'm trying to argue with you, because I'm not. I'm just hoping to add some clarity for those nosey people who read this forum when they should be staying in the Am I Infected forum. ;)

And by the way... contaminated?  Ew! That term used in the context you did always makes my skin crawl. Just sayin!  :-\

Ann
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline Ann

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  • Posts: 28,140
  • It just is, OK?
    • Num is sum qui mentiar tibi?
Re: is it true that elisa and the western blot can be decieving
« Reply #8 on: April 06, 2009, 02:21:21 PM »
Moskimo,

Did you read the responses  you got in the other thread you started on the "when to start" subject? It would be best if you continued that discussion in the other thread.

Don't worry about the mistake with posting a denialist website URL. I understand that you're new to this and didn't realise. Ignore the denialists; they're responsible for the unnecessary deaths of thousands, if not millions of people world-wide, most notably in South Africa.

The thread where you should be discussing your CD4s and whether or not you should start treatment is here:

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=26526.0

See you there!

Ann
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline Alefou

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  • Posts: 62
Re: is it true that elisa and the western blot can be decieving
« Reply #9 on: April 06, 2009, 02:29:33 PM »
Ann,

Sorry for the word "contaminated". Somebody already told me that in an other thread. I'm from France and we use this word when talking about HIV. I know I must improve that ....

Sorry,
Ale
12/16/2008 : Probable infection
12/26/2008 : ARS (Flu for one week)
01/15/2009 : HIV rapid test neg
01/28/2009 : Rapid test poz
01/31/2009 : Two EIA Poz
02/03/2009 : WB pos, CD4 : 832 (32%), VL : 116k copies/ml
03/08/2009 : CD4 : 836 (38%), VL : 104k

Offline jampdx

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  • Posts: 89
Re: is it true that elisa and the western blot can be decieving
« Reply #10 on: April 07, 2009, 08:59:29 AM »
I'm not sure if I should post in this or not, if it's the right thread that is, but one of those denialist is who gave this to me to begin with.  He told me after sex when I asked him (not that I don't take responsibility it was too late then), that he didn't believe in HIV causing AIDS and I should assume everyone is positive before having unprotected sex.  Where I agree with that, I don't agree with not discussing something major like that with someone, before having sex, knowing darn well it's not the common take.

Sorry again if this is wrong forum, I just get so frustrated at people denying HIV causes AIDS... they're absolutely ridiculous.
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-Infected 1/6/2009
Positive 2/9/2009
3/8/2009:  CD4 603  VL f\'d up by lab and having to redraw
4/7/2009 CD4 650 VL 348
6/24/2009 cd4 964 VL 850
9/26/2009 CD4 546 VL 822
7/22/13 CD4 1080 VL 2,220

Offline Alefou

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  • Posts: 62
Re: is it true that elisa and the western blot can be decieving
« Reply #11 on: April 07, 2009, 09:38:15 AM »
Yes jam, that's true denialst are dangerous. But I think those people react like that because they don't want to face that they are sick. They want to create their world in which they are HIV free and that they will be healthy without any treatment. I think it's more a psychological problem for them than anything.
12/16/2008 : Probable infection
12/26/2008 : ARS (Flu for one week)
01/15/2009 : HIV rapid test neg
01/28/2009 : Rapid test poz
01/31/2009 : Two EIA Poz
02/03/2009 : WB pos, CD4 : 832 (32%), VL : 116k copies/ml
03/08/2009 : CD4 : 836 (38%), VL : 104k

Offline Ann

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    • Num is sum qui mentiar tibi?
Re: is it true that elisa and the western blot can be decieving
« Reply #12 on: April 07, 2009, 10:31:01 AM »
Yes jam, that's true denialst are dangerous. But I think those people react like that because they don't want to face that they are sick. They want to create their world in which they are HIV free and that they will be healthy without any treatment. I think it's more a psychological problem for them than anything.

Many denialist are (allegedly) hiv negative. As to their  motivation, the only thing that I can think of is that their beliefs mean they don't need to use condoms.
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

 


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