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Author Topic: Vitamins and or supplements with AIDS meds?  (Read 16694 times)

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Offline mgliberatore

  • Member
  • Posts: 3
Vitamins and or supplements with AIDS meds?
« on: March 09, 2009, 03:39:42 PM »
Hi everyone. I'm HIV positive since 2001, and started meds for the first time last year. CD-4 cells had remained high, and viral load was low-to-manageable for about 7 years. I started on Atripla in 2008, but never hit "undetectable" status. Have been on Norvir, Prezista, and Isentres for nearly 1 year, and luckily, have had no side effects. I'm getting a cold right now, and would like to take some type of supplement: zinc, vitamin C--something to bolster my immune system. My body always responded well to echinacea, but I know that's contraindictated with HIV. My doctor is great, but REALLY hard to get in touch with--so I ask you...

Any suggestions?

Many thanks!
Michael
Michael in Los Angeles
"Be proactive and question everything!"

Offline J.R.E.

  • Member
  • Posts: 7,126
  • Joined Dec-2003 Living positive, since 1985.
Re: Vitamins and or supplements with AIDS meds?
« Reply #1 on: March 09, 2009, 04:58:05 PM »
Hello Michael,

Welcome  !  Try sticking with a once a day multiple vitamin ( Such as Centrum),  and drink a lot of juices. Those being Orange juice and  Apple juice.  The main thing is when you feel a cold coming on, try to get as much rest as you can. When I feel a cold coming on rest is usually what helps me get through it.  Hope you feel better...


Ray 


Current Meds ; Viramune, Epzicom, 40mg of simvastatin, 12.5mg of Hydrochlorothiazide.
Metoprolol tartrate 25mg



http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=40802.0

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=45159.0

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=39722.msg495621;topicseen#msg495621

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=46806.0

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=39414.msg491701#msg491701


 In October of 2003, My t-cell count was 16, Viral load was over 500,000, Percentage at that time was 5%. I started my first  HAART regimen  on October 24th,03.

 As of 8/2514,  t-cells are at 402, Viral load <40

 Current % is at 11%

  
 62 years young.

Offline jampdx

  • Member
  • Posts: 89
Re: Vitamins and or supplements with AIDS meds?
« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2009, 10:07:42 AM »
I'm a huge believer in liquid vitamins because pills do not break down as well and we end up wasting a lot of them.  hehe.  I can send you a couple links if you like.
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-Infected 1/6/2009
Positive 2/9/2009
3/8/2009:  CD4 603  VL f\'d up by lab and having to redraw
4/7/2009 CD4 650 VL 348
6/24/2009 cd4 964 VL 850
9/26/2009 CD4 546 VL 822
7/22/13 CD4 1080 VL 2,220

Offline John2038

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  • Happiness is a journey, not a destination.
    • HIV Research News (Twitter)
Re: Vitamins and or supplements with AIDS meds?
« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2009, 04:04:47 PM »
There are numerous studies about taking vitamins+mineral+nutrients while being HIV+.
A short selection below.


A
Vitamin A is a micronutrient which is present in some food and is necessary for normal human function. It is present at relatively high levels in most Western diets and can be stored in the liver and intestines for long periods, making vitamin A deficiency rare.

Several studies have shown that vitamin A plays an important role in the immune system. Animal studies have shown that a shortage of vitamin A can cause immune problems and disease, and in areas where vitamin A deficiency is more common, such as parts of India, providing supplements of vitamin A has been shown to decrease childhood mortality from infectious disease.

Studies have suggested that some people with HIV have vitamin A deficiency and that this may be associated with lower CD4 cell counts and an increased risk of mortality. Vitamin A deficiency may be a secondary consequence of malnutrition in people with HIV or could be a consequence of HIV infection itself, since infection and fever are known to cause depletion of the vitamin. In test tube studies, vitamin A increases HIV replication in some cell types and decreases replication in others.

Vitamin A is sometimes referred to as retinoic acid, a substance into which it is converted in the body.

http://www.aidsmap.com/cms1032362.asp

B2
Vitamin B2 is an essential building block for glutathione, a key anti-oxidant. Deficiency symptoms include cracking at the corner of the mouth and on the lips. Diets low in dairy products are especially likely to be deficient.

Good food sources of vitamin B2 are dairy products, green leafy vegetables, fruits, meat and cereals.

Vitamin B2 is also known as riboflavin.

http://www.aidsmap.com/cms1032364.asp


B6
Vitamin B6 is essential for the formation of new cells and for maintaining immunity. Studies in animals show a range of immune defects when the diet is deficient. Although deficiency is rare in people eating a normal Western diet, low levels have been observed in people with HIV. Deficiency is difficult to diagnose.

The vitamin can reduce the toxicities of the tuberculosis and Mycobacterium avium intracellulare (MAI) drug isoniazid, and one study amongst HIV-positive gay men suggested that those deficient in vitamin B6 were more likely to be depressed and anxious and that when this deficiency was corrected, there was a significant decrease in depression (Shor-Posner 1992). It has been suggested that AZT (zidovudine, Retrovir) use increases the need for this vitamin, although studies have shown no clear link.

Another study treated 12 HIV positive people with 20 to 25 mg of vitamin B6 and observed a small increase in CD4 cell count amongst 8 of the 12 over a six month period. In contrast, an untreated control group showed no improvement in CD4 count (Mantero-Atienza 1990).

High intake of vitamin B6 (20mg per day or more) has been associated with a reduced risk of developing AIDS in a cohort followed for six years (Tang 1994).

Doses of more than 2g a day have been shown to cause nerve damage. Most nutritionists believe 50mg to be adequate for anyone. Good food sources of vitamin B6 are meat, whole grains, brewer's yeast and whole grains, wholemeal bread.

Vitamin B6 is also known as pyridoxine.

http://www.aidsmap.com/cms1032365.asp


B12
Several studies have shown low levels of vitamin B12 in HIV-positive people (Burkes 1987; Harriman 1989). It is unclear whether low vitamin B12 levels influence HIV disease progression, or whether they are merely a consequence of disease progression. An 18 month study of HIV-positive people found that the onset of low serum vitamin B12 levels was associated with CD4 cell count decline, and that normalisation of vitamin B12 levels was associated with an improvement in CD4 cell count (Baum 1995). Another study, which followed 310 men for 9 years, found that low serum vitamin B12 levels at entry to the study were associated with an 89% increased risk of progression for AIDS after controlling for disease stage, antiretroviral therapy, alcohol intake and age (Tang 1997).

Depletion in body tissues may begin to occur at least a year before blood levels become abnormally low. Vitamin B12 is thought by some doctors to protect against nerve damage and neurological disorders.

Injected supplementation has been tested in HIV-positive people and appears to improve mental functioning (Beach 1992). Another study also showed that vitamin B12 supplementation for at least six months improved mental functioning in HIV-positive people who had been deficient; an untreated control group did not show improvement (Baum 1995).

Peripheral neuropathy, a symptom sometimes seen in HIV-positive people and often related to the use of drugs such as ddI (didanosine, Videx / VidexEC) and ddC (zalcitabine, Hivid), can be caused by vitamin B12 deficiency, so this should always be ruled out before assuming that the neuropathy is HIV-related. As yet there is no evidence that prophylactic treatment with vitamin B12 will reduce the likelihood that neuropathy will develop in those receiving ddI or ddC.

http://www.aidsmap.com/cms1032366.asp
http://www.aidsmap.com/en/docs/C9F32CB5-D462-44DF-BA66-A63796A27627.asp

C
Vitamin C is a micronutrient which is present in some food and is necessary for normal human function. A severe deficiency of vitamin C causes scurvy, a disease characterised by connective tissue disorders, impaired wound healing, bleeding gums and other serious symptoms.

The effect of vitamin C deficiency on the immune system is unclear, with contradictory evidence. There is reason to believe that vitamin C may play a significant role in cellular immunity.

In the test tube, very high concentrations of vitamin C can prevent HIV from infecting new cells and prevent the activation and replication of HIV in dormant infected cells. Vitamin C also dramatically reduced the formation of syncytia, clumps of dysfunctional T-cells which form around an HIV-infected T-cell in the test tube. Syncytia tend to appear more frequently when CD4 cell counts are falling rapidly, and it has been theorised that their appearance may indicate an increased chance that AIDS-related illnesses will develop. In vitro vitamin C has also been shown to inactivate other viruses such as herpes simplex, rabies and tobacco mosaic virus.
http://www.aidsmap.com/cms1032367.asp

D
High prevalence of vitamin D deficiency in patients with HIV
Almost a third of HIV-positive patients have vitamin D deficiency, Dutch researchers report. Dark skin colour was the most important risk factor for this disorder. Amongst patients with white skin, more patients taking NNRTI-based HIV treatment had vitamin D deficiency than did patients taking antiretroviralal therapy based on a protease inhibitor
http://www.aidsmap.com/en/news/74A73F79-F8BE-4668-A54B-2C18B97D9E39.asp

E
Vitamin E is an important anti-oxidant and anti-inflammatory that is often deficient in HIV-positive people. Vitamin E is necessary to ensure the optimum functioning of cell membranes. Marginal deficiency appears to be quite widespread in healthy adults eating the standard Western diet, especially one which is high in polyunsaturated fat. Deficiency may interfere with efficient immune functions, but so may doses above 800IU a day. Vitamin E stimulates CD4 T-cell proliferation at high doses, and in healthy adults has been shown to restore delayed-type skin hypersensitivity reactions and interleukin-2 production at a dose of 400IU per day (Meydani 1995). It is not known whether this is beneficial at all, or any, stages of HIV infection. The safe dose is not yet known

http://www.aidsmap.com/cms1032369.asp


Others Studies and Articles


Cheap multivitamin pill increases survival in those with low CD4 counts

A multivitamin and mineral supplement with a local cost of about 60p a month has been found to enhance survival of HIV-positive people with less than 200 CD4 cells unable to access HAART, according to a Thai study published in the latest issue of the journal, AIDS.

The total daily vitamin/mineral doses contained within the pills were:

    * Vitamin A 3000 µg
    * Beta-carotene 6 mg
    * Vitamin D3 20 µg
    * Vitamin E 80 mg
    * Vitamin K 180 µg
    * Vitamin C 400 mg
    * Vitamin B1 24 mg
    * Vitamin B2 15 mg
    * Vitamin B6 40 mg
    * Vitamin B12 30 µg
    * Folacin 100 µg
    * Pantothenic acid 40 mg
    * Iron 10 mg
    * Magnesium 200 mg
    * Manganese 8 mg
    * Zinc 30 mg
    * Iodine 300 µg
    * Copper 3 mg
    * Selenium 400 µg
    * Chromium 150 µg
    * Cystine 66 mg
   
http://www.aidsmap.com/en/news/F432BEF8-92E9-4786-B212-35486CC7E8B5.asp

Vitamins and minerals

A balanced diet will almost definitely meet all your vitamin and mineral needs, but many HIV-positive people also take a multivitamin and mineral tablet every day.

Vitamin and mineral deficiencies are seen in people with HIV who are unwell and have weak immune systems. Many doctors believe that this is a consequence of being ill.

Multivitamins and minerals are not a replacement for anti-HIV drugs, but there is some evidence that taking them when you are well may support your immune system.

Recently a study conducted in Africa showed that taking a daily multivitamin tablet which included vitamin B complex, vitamin C, vitamin E and folic acid delayed the onset of AIDS and death. Another study in Thailand showed a micronutrient tablet reduced the risk of death in people with very advanced HIV disease.

In the US, a broad-spectrum micronutrient was shown to increase the CD4 cell counts of people taking it at the same time as anti-HIV drugs over three months. The micronutrient combined 15 vitamins, 15 minerals and antioxidants including lipoic acid, N-acetyl cysteine and acetyl L-carnitine. It was manufactured without the fillers, binders and lubricants found in commercial supplements that can interfere with the supplements’ absorption.

Other studies have shown that HDL cholesterol, often called ‘good’ cholesterol, and selenium levels are higher in people with slower HIV disease progression.

Herbal supplements

Herbal remedies are also widely used by people with HIV. However, some herbal remedies can interact with anti-HIV medication meaning that the amount of the HIV drug that gets into the blood is too low to effectively fight the virus leading to the emergence of drug-resistant HIV.

Because the use of herbal supplements is not studied as extensively as the use of prescription medications not all the potential interactions are known about.

Some of the most concerning interactions seen so far are:


    * African potato: This herb is widely used in Africa by people with HIV, but test tube studies have shown that the body uses the same mechanism to process it as it does for HIV drugs, meaning that not enough anti-HIV drug may get into the blood.

    * Garlic: Supplements of garlic have been shown to stop the body processing protease inhibitors and NNRTIs properly. A study involving HIV-negative volunteers taking a protease inhibitor found that a twice-daily garlic supplement lowered blood concentrations of the protease inhibitor. This finding is very concerning as garlic is often taken by people with high levels of fat in their blood, and high blood fats can be a side-effect of anti-HIV drugs. However, there is no evidence that garlic used for cooking interacts with HIV medicines.

    * St John’s wort: This popular herbal antidepressant has been shown to lower blood levels of indinavir and the UK’s Medicines Control Agency has warned that it could affect blood levels of all protease inhibitors and the NNRTIs efavirenz and nevirapine.

    * Sutherlandia: A herb which is used in Africa for the treatment of people with HIV has been shown by laboratory studies to interact with anti-HIV drugs.
   
High doses of vitamins and minerals

There is little evidence that taking ‘mega’ doses of vitamins and minerals have any benefit. Indeed, it is worth noting that large doses of some can cause very unpleasant side-effects and can even be dangerous.

    * Vitamin A: Doses above 9000 micrograms in men and 7500 micrograms in women may be harmful. Large amounts can cause liver and bone damage, vomiting and headache. If you are pregnant, or thinking about becoming pregnant, you should talk to your doctor before taking vitamin A as large doses can harm an unborn child.

    * Vitamin C: Doses above 1000mg per day can cause kidney stones, and special care is needed if you are taking the protease inhibitor indinavir which can also cause kidney stones. It has also been shown that large doses of vitamin C can lower blood levels of indinavir.

    * Vitamin E: Doses above 800mg a day may interfere with normal immune function. Special care is needed if you are taking anti-coagulants or if you have haemophilia.

    * Zinc: Doses above 75mg a day have been linked with copper deficiency, a shortage of immune system cells called neutrophils, and anaemia. One study found that taking above 15mg a day increased the risk of developing HIV-related symptoms.

    * Selenium: Doses of more than 750 micrograms per day have been associated with immune suppression.

    * Vitamin B6: More than 2g a day can cause nerve damage, but doses as low as 50mg a day have been associated with peripheral neuropathy.
   
Help and advice

Before you take any vitamin, mineral or herbal supplement talk to your HIV doctor or specialist HIV pharmacist first. They will be able to tell you if there is a risk of an interaction with anti-HIV drugs.

A dietitian can analyse your diet and advise you on how to optimise your nutritional intake so you can meet your vitamin and mineral requirements through both foods and supplements.

Also remember, vitamins, minerals and herbals supplements can have side-effects, just like prescription medicines and you should never take more than the recommended dose.


http://www.aidsmap.com/en/docs/A070DCAE-59AB-40A9-B03C-1D85286973A6.asp


Micronutrient deficiencies less common in people taking antiretrovirals
http://www.aidsmap.com/en/news/0546E8BB-89CF-400C-AD1D-A320568C18C1.asp

Vitamins and minerals
http://www.aidsmap.com/cms1032001.asp

Anti-oxidants
http://www.aidsmap.com/cms1032000.asp

Supplemental review
http://www.aidsmap.com/en/docs/95651007-A506-448B-B758-7DB10FF59BCC.asp



Personally I am taking - some every day, some time to time:

A, B1, B2, B3, B5, B6, B12, Folic Acid, C, D, E, K, Selenium, Glutamine, Iron, Zinc, Magnesium, Calcium, Kelp, Flaxseed oil, Omega 3-6-9, Brewers yeast, Red gingseng, Dispirin CV 100, Autrin, Lecithin, Green tea, Probiotics, Biotin, Chromium, Fluor, Phosporus, Copper, Manganese, Ispaghula husk (high fiber)

I use to take Astragalus which I believe work wonderfully, but I want to avoid any interaction with my regimen. Generally speaking, in the exception of green tea, I avoid any herbal supplements.

What ever you choose to take on the top of your regimen, ensure you have cross check your list with your ID doc. The list I give is based on my reading and experience doing sport, but they are only MY choices.

Good Luck

EDIT:
If you plan to take Dispirin CV 100 please talk with your ID Doc first (well for anything in fact).
Dispirin CV 100 as been proven to reduce the cardio vascular risks and the inflamation.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2009, 06:32:46 PM by John2038 »

Offline RWR

  • Member
  • Posts: 124
  • Nothing changes unless you change something
Re: Vitamins and or supplements with AIDS meds?
« Reply #4 on: March 10, 2009, 05:20:27 PM »
I have always used a vitamin called Usana even with tcell at 60- % at 3 viral load at 2.5 mil i managed to keep going.  Now on meds gone up viral load is under 75
Hiv+ 1986
Isentress
Truvada

Bobby

Offline BT65

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  • Member
  • Posts: 9,915
Re: Vitamins and or supplements with AIDS meds?
« Reply #5 on: March 10, 2009, 08:35:19 PM »
I've used vitamin C before many times when I've felt a common cold coming on.  What the body doesn't use, you pee out, so no harm done.  I believe it made the cold less severe, but did nothing to "cure" it. 
I've never killed anyone, but I frequently get satisfaction reading the obituary notices.-Clarence Darrow

Offline risred1

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  • Posts: 419
  • My Source for Supps - www.newyorkbuyersclub.org
Re: Vitamins and or supplements with AIDS meds?
« Reply #6 on: March 12, 2009, 10:33:44 AM »
Looking for a supplement to deal with acute infections, in my opinion and experience, is really hard to calculate, formulate, or simply, figure out.

Unless your infection is a result of a deficiency, and most of us taking a supplement at least, aren't deficient. (although debating deficiency is its own topic...) Taking a supplement once you become symptomatic with a viral infection, may not really do much for you to "treat" your cold.

As it turns out, once your symptomatic, you body is already taking steps to counter the infection. And the symptoms are often the results of your body acting against the infection.

In essence, once your aware of your infection, in many ways, your almost over it.

Although, I'll atest, with this last cold going around, its been very hard to shake. Sometimes an issue with viral infections. (as we know).

I used to do the Vitamin C thing, ala Linus Pauling, but have concluded that Vitamin C is good for other things, but bad for shortening / treating a cold.

Getting sick from time to time is part of the deal. Having a solid nutritional foundation helps, in my opinion, may reduce frequency and severity.

Now in the HIV world should this view be mitigated? Being immune suppressed, and we've seen all the warnings, obviously presents further challenges. I trend towards chinese herbals and foods noted for stimulating the immune system when I'm sick. This is esoteric in some regards because we aren't looking at a specific chemical compound like Vitamin C represents. Rather its a plant and its just this plant which is associated with boosting an immune response. In my mind this is tricky stuff, cos maybe our body chemistry just doesn't react to the herb. We do know that race or rather genetics does play its part. And something that is noted to work in one gene pool, may very well be non reactive or even negatively reacting to another gene pool.

The plant extracts that interest me are Ginseng, Green Tea and Milk Thistle and are in my program. As I've noted, my CD4 are now in decline. There is only so much you can do, but I do believe that there are thing one can do that are health positive. Such as have a balanced/"good" diet, exercise, stress reduction (tough in these times), and having enough sleep.

And when I look at this list, I see that I'm deficient in sleep and exercise, so my supplements may only be able to provide only a "fraction" of what they might be able to do, if i would be a bit more diligent in my entire program, not just part of it.
risred1 - hiv +
02/07 CD4 404 - 27% - VL 15k
10/07 CD4 484 - 31% - VL 45k
05/08 CD4 414 - 26% - VL 70k
01/09 CD4 365 - 23% - VL 65k
05/09 CD4 291 - 23% - VL 115k - Started Meds - Reyataz/Truvada
06/09 CD4 394 - ?% - VL 1200 - Boosted Reyataz with Norvir and Truvada
07/09 CD4 441 - ?% - VL 118 - Boosted Reyataz with Norvir and Truvada
09/09 CD4 375 - ?% - VL Undetectable - Boosted Reyataz with Norvir and Truvada
12/09 CD4 595 - ?% - VL Undetectable - VIT D 34 - Reyataz/Truvada/Norvir

Offline wisewoof

  • Member
  • Posts: 4
Re: Vitamins and or supplements with AIDS meds?
« Reply #7 on: March 12, 2009, 04:44:53 PM »
You have asked the billion dollar question - literally!  Big Pharma has spent a century trying to defeat the common rhinovirus and is getting close - but it's still elusive.  Things I have tried that I "think" worked (how would I know, really?)
1) Extra vitamin C and B complex (the B's work together)
2) Amazon Herb Co.'s "Illumination" http://www.amazonherb.net/ProductInfo.aspx?ItemID=5029
-probably the best
3) Airborne - fairly good results
4) Zicam - didn't work for me
5) Rest, Hydrate, repeat

And my #1 solution? (you will probably think I'm silly) - I do a mantra.  I tell myself "I am well and healthy and I know it."  I argue it like a lawyer.  I counter any opposing thought.  I recite it while drifting off to sleep.  (16 years positive - 14 years w/AIDS)


Offline Nestor

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  • Posts: 430
  • What we love, we shall grow to resemble.
Re: Vitamins and or supplements with AIDS meds?
« Reply #9 on: August 26, 2010, 01:06:48 AM »
ElZorro,

Thank you for posting this!  I actually came across this elsewhere online a few weeks ago, had a bunch of questions about it, and meant to post it here and ask the questions.  Somehow I never got around to it though, and by now had half-forgotten it, so I'm really happy that you've put it here to remind me.  

I've always been extremely reluctant to take any kind of supplement, but various events of the past few months have had me rethinking that stance and this article might tip the balance.  Still want to ask a few questions first. 

To start with, this surprised me: 

Quote
For the study, researchers monitored 40 HIV-positive adults who were on antiretroviral therapy and had achieved viral suppression (viral load, or amount of virus in the blood, of 50 copies per milliliter or less).

Participants were randomly assigned to receive either a zinc supplement or a placebo. CD4 cell counts and viral loads were monitored over 18 months. Immune system failure was defined as having a CD4 count of 200 cells per microliter or less.

By the end of the study, four participants in the placebo group (21 percent) experienced immune system failure. None of the participants taking zinc supplements experienced immune system failure.


Why would people who were on anti-retroviral therapy, and who had active viral suppression, (that is, they were undetectable) have immune system failure?  Let alone four people out of twenty? 

But then again, immune failure is defined here as having fewer than 200 t-cells.  What did those four people have to start with?  It wouldn't make sense to call it immunologic failure if they had really low t-cell counts to begin with, would it? 


« Last Edit: August 26, 2010, 01:22:13 AM by Nestor »
Summer 2004--became HIV+
Dec. 2005--found out

Date          CD4    %       VL
Jan. '06    725    25      9,097
Nov. '06    671    34     52,202
Apr. '07    553    30      24,270
Sept. '07  685    27       4,849
Jan. '08    825    29       4,749
Mar. '08    751    30     16,026
Aug. '08    653    30       3,108
Oct. '08     819    28     10,046
Jan '09      547    31     13,000
May '09     645   25        6,478
Aug. '09    688   30      19,571
Nov. '09     641    27       9,598
Feb. '10     638    27       4,480
May '10      687      9    799,000 (CMV)
July '10      600     21      31,000
Nov '10      682     24     15,000
June '11     563    23     210,000 (blasto)
July  '11      530    22      39,000
Aug '11      677     22      21,000
Sept. '12    747     15      14,000

Offline Nestor

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  • What we love, we shall grow to resemble.
Re: Vitamins and or supplements with AIDS meds?
« Reply #10 on: August 26, 2010, 01:28:48 AM »

Sorry, just followed the link and it answered at least part of my question:

Quote
Immunologic failure was defined as a drop of CD4+ cell count < 200 cells/mm3.

So obviously somebody rising from, say, 120 to 150 is not considered a case of immunologic failure.  That makes sense. 

Summer 2004--became HIV+
Dec. 2005--found out

Date          CD4    %       VL
Jan. '06    725    25      9,097
Nov. '06    671    34     52,202
Apr. '07    553    30      24,270
Sept. '07  685    27       4,849
Jan. '08    825    29       4,749
Mar. '08    751    30     16,026
Aug. '08    653    30       3,108
Oct. '08     819    28     10,046
Jan '09      547    31     13,000
May '09     645   25        6,478
Aug. '09    688   30      19,571
Nov. '09     641    27       9,598
Feb. '10     638    27       4,480
May '10      687      9    799,000 (CMV)
July '10      600     21      31,000
Nov '10      682     24     15,000
June '11     563    23     210,000 (blasto)
July  '11      530    22      39,000
Aug '11      677     22      21,000
Sept. '12    747     15      14,000

Offline Etay1207

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  • Posts: 131
Re: Vitamins and or supplements with AIDS meds?
« Reply #11 on: August 30, 2010, 09:41:09 AM »
Nestor, I would argue the logic that a low cd4 count defined immunologic failure.  I personally don't use supplements.  I use honey as a sweetner and chew garlic every once in awhile.  That's about it.  I do eat plenty of fruits and vegetables. 
POZ since 1999
1/07 tcells: 530 vl: 72,922 7/07 tcells: 542 vl: 26,577
9/08 tcells: 339 vl: 56,120  7/09 tcells: 267 vl: 663,160
11/09 tcells: 71 vl: 498,670 2/10 tcells: 52 vl: 322,000
 no meds and feeling great!

Online leatherman

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Re: Vitamins and or supplements with AIDS meds?
« Reply #12 on: August 30, 2010, 11:05:11 AM »
I would argue the logic that a low cd4 count defined immunologic failure.
and you would be wrong. ;) the cd4 count is the premier marker of the strength of a person's immune system; therefore a low count IS the proof of immunologic failure. scientifically it has been proven that when the situation of cd4<200 is reached the immune system begins to fail to response to viral and bacterial infections properly. This makes sense as with counts of <200 there is simply less of an intact immune system in place to work. This does not mean it immediately stops working; but that its responses are weak or less likely to happen. The situation is excaberated as the immune system declines further (say <100). For instance with an cd4 count of <=50 one's immune system may respond to fend off a bout of rhinosinusitis but not be able to mount the necessary defense against non-Hodgkins lymphoma or PCP.

Of course, several people have explained this to you before and it's why so many of us believe that you are "playing with fire" allowing your situation to continue as it is. Obviously, with your low cd4 count, you still have a slight immune system response that is fighting off the day to day issues that might arise. However, you don't have enough of an immune system left to respond to major illnesses. Sadly but more than likely, you are already "infected" with a serious issue that your body is not fighting. That bacteria or virus is busy multiplying in your system right now, and at some point the tipping point will be reached and you'll become very sick in a very short amount of time. Of course, with your immune system so degraded for so long, it will probably be touch-n-go on whether the doctors, the meds, and the HIV meds (which they will want you to take immediately) will be able to work in time to save your life.

My last late partner "fought" off the flu through several bouts (each lasting a couple of days) for a month; before we realized that he just wasn't getting any better with the last bout. He went to the hospital after that and 69 days later passed away, not from the flu, but from the tumors of non-hodgkins lymphoma that had been inside him growing for years unchecked as he had not been tested in time for HIV and had gone untreated.

Many of us here have seen that same sad situation happen over and over. Every time you blithely dither on about your low tcell count and your refusal to take meds to stop the progress of the hiv in your system, we see the same situation happening again. Except instead of like so many who went untested and didn't know about their problems until nearly too late when they were hospitalized; you, knowing your HIV+ status and tracking your cd4 counts, are knowingly allowing your health situation to degrade like this. I'll never understand why you "believe" the science to the point of actually testing and tracking your count; but refusing to believe the science about when to take the meds; but it's a very sad situation.
leatherman (aka mIkIE)


chart from 1992-2013; updated 2/09/13  Reyataz/Norvir/Truvada

Offline mecch

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Re: Vitamins and or supplements with AIDS meds?
« Reply #13 on: August 30, 2010, 06:35:57 PM »
Hi everyone. I'm HIV positive since 2001, and started meds for the first time last year. CD-4 cells had remained high, and viral load was low-to-manageable for about 7 years. I started on Atripla in 2008, but never hit "undetectable" status. Have been on Norvir, Prezista, and Isentres for nearly 1 year, and luckily, have had no side effects. I'm getting a cold right now, and would like to take some type of supplement: zinc, vitamin C--something to bolster my immune system. My body always responded well to echinacea, but I know that's contraindictated with HIV. My doctor is great, but REALLY hard to get in touch with--so I ask you...

Supplements aside, would you mind clarifying if you have reached undetectable? Its not clear.  You were detectable with Atripla, but have since become undetectable?

Supplements are cool, but its so very important to find the HAART that delivers you and keeps you undetectable.......
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline tommy246

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Re: Vitamins and or supplements with AIDS meds?
« Reply #14 on: September 19, 2010, 02:19:05 PM »
I take and highly reccommend  vitd with calcium as many hiv meds can thin the bones , also omega3 which is great for lowering cholesterol and trigerlicerides which many hiv meds cause to rise. These supplements have scientifically proven health benefits and come highly reccommended by many renowned hiv specialists. Green tea is also a great anti-oxident.
I also take a multivitamin tablet which benefits are debatable but it wont cause you any harm and could do lots of good.
jan 06 neg
dec 08 pos cd4 505 ,16%, 1,500vl
april 09 cd4 635 ,16%,60,000
july 09 ,cd4 545,17%,80,000
aug 09,hosptal 18days pneumonia cd190,225,000,15%
1 week later cd4 415 20%
nov 09 cd4 591 ,vl 59,000,14%,started atripla
dec 09  cd4 787, vl 266, 16%
march 2010  cd4 720 vl non detectable -20  20%
june 2010  cd4  680, 21%, ND

Offline sharkdiver

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Re: Vitamins and or supplements with AIDS meds?
« Reply #15 on: September 19, 2010, 03:06:35 PM »
zombie thread but oh well, it is helpful to others I guess

It's really important to check things out with you doc before adding any supplements. One would think, omega3/fish oil for tri's but unfortunately these are processed through the liver and because of elevated liver enzymes I have been advised to stay away from taking this supplement.  

If you are prone to kidney stones, calcium supplements are not recommended either.

It gets tricky after taking meds for a long time as the cause other issues.  Again, be careful with vitamins and supplements and talk with your doctor.

edited for typos
« Last Edit: September 20, 2010, 09:16:43 AM by sharkdiver »

Offline bocker3

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Re: Vitamins and or supplements with AIDS meds?
« Reply #16 on: September 20, 2010, 07:47:57 AM »
I take and highly reccommend  vitd with calcium as many hiv meds can thin the bones , also omega3 which is great for lowering cholesterol and trigerlicerides which many hiv meds cause to rise. These supplements have scientifically proven health benefits and come highly reccommended by many renowned hiv specialists. Green tea is also a great anti-oxident.
I also take a multivitamin tablet which benefits are debatable but it wont cause you any harm and could do lots of good.

Unless your name is followed by an M.D. -- I would stay away from recommending anything in this realm.  Share your experience, but leave the recommendations to the experts.  There may be a whole host of reasons (see Shark's post) that one should NOT take anything you have just "highly recommended".

Mike
Atripla - Started 12/05
Reyataz/Norvir - Added 6/06
Labs - Pre-Meds
Sep05 T=350/25% VL98,559
Nov05 288/18%  47,564
Current Labs
May2013 691/31% <20

Offline tommy246

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Re: Vitamins and or supplements with AIDS meds?
« Reply #17 on: September 20, 2010, 12:17:30 PM »
Unless your name is followed by an M.D. -- I would stay away from recommending anything in this realm.  Share your experience, but leave the recommendations to the experts.  There may be a whole host of reasons (see Shark's post) that one should NOT take anything you have just "highly recommended".

Mike

read the second sentence duh.
Have you heard off Dr gallant from johnshopkins hosiptal  well he has a hiv website you should read it . I tend to believe dr gallants advice rather than sharkdiver.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2010, 02:37:38 PM by tommy246 »
jan 06 neg
dec 08 pos cd4 505 ,16%, 1,500vl
april 09 cd4 635 ,16%,60,000
july 09 ,cd4 545,17%,80,000
aug 09,hosptal 18days pneumonia cd190,225,000,15%
1 week later cd4 415 20%
nov 09 cd4 591 ,vl 59,000,14%,started atripla
dec 09  cd4 787, vl 266, 16%
march 2010  cd4 720 vl non detectable -20  20%
june 2010  cd4  680, 21%, ND

Offline BT65

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Re: Vitamins and or supplements with AIDS meds?
« Reply #18 on: September 21, 2010, 05:49:11 AM »
tommy, bottom line is, people should talk to their doctor before starting supplements.  And Sharkdiver gave good reason for that.  My own sister has kidney stones, and can't take calcium.  And so on.  No matter what Dr. Gallant recommends, it shouldn't be the universal rule for all.  Always check with your doctor.
I've never killed anyone, but I frequently get satisfaction reading the obituary notices.-Clarence Darrow

Offline tommy246

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Re: Vitamins and or supplements with AIDS meds?
« Reply #19 on: September 21, 2010, 07:50:02 AM »
obviously
jan 06 neg
dec 08 pos cd4 505 ,16%, 1,500vl
april 09 cd4 635 ,16%,60,000
july 09 ,cd4 545,17%,80,000
aug 09,hosptal 18days pneumonia cd190,225,000,15%
1 week later cd4 415 20%
nov 09 cd4 591 ,vl 59,000,14%,started atripla
dec 09  cd4 787, vl 266, 16%
march 2010  cd4 720 vl non detectable -20  20%
june 2010  cd4  680, 21%, ND

Offline sharkdiver

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Re: Vitamins and or supplements with AIDS meds?
« Reply #20 on: September 21, 2010, 10:03:59 AM »
Thanks BT.   
   
   Furthermore, ask your doctor if they can refer you to a registered nutritionist who specializes in HIV/AIDS.

Offline tommy246

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Re: Vitamins and or supplements with AIDS meds?
« Reply #21 on: September 22, 2010, 11:40:25 AM »
Thanks BT.   
   
   Furthermore, ask your doctor if they can refer you to a registered nutritionist who specializes in HIV/AIDS.

why if my blood results are fine
jan 06 neg
dec 08 pos cd4 505 ,16%, 1,500vl
april 09 cd4 635 ,16%,60,000
july 09 ,cd4 545,17%,80,000
aug 09,hosptal 18days pneumonia cd190,225,000,15%
1 week later cd4 415 20%
nov 09 cd4 591 ,vl 59,000,14%,started atripla
dec 09  cd4 787, vl 266, 16%
march 2010  cd4 720 vl non detectable -20  20%
june 2010  cd4  680, 21%, ND

Offline sharkdiver

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Re: Vitamins and or supplements with AIDS meds?
« Reply #22 on: September 22, 2010, 03:59:12 PM »
My message was for anyone reading this revived thread.
 Despite what one might read on the internet, everyone is different and side effects from long term use of the meds may be different for everyone. After 26 years Fish Oil as well as Niaspan isn't good for my liver and I have to be careful about calcium due to kidney stones. 

Offline bocker3

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Re: Vitamins and or supplements with AIDS meds?
« Reply #23 on: October 04, 2010, 07:54:49 AM »
read the second sentence duh.
Have you heard off Dr gallant from johnshopkins hosiptal  well he has a hiv website you should read it . I tend to believe dr gallants advice rather than sharkdiver.

First, you little shit -- stop your condescending tone.  I've been reading Dr. Gallant for years -- do you really think that you have "discovered" all these things and people and that they rest of us have been living in caves for years.  Your posts remind me of a little teenager who thinks all adults are the biggest idiots to ever walk the earth because they question anything you say.

You really are closed minded aren't you?  I was pointing out that YOU should NOT "highly recommend" that anyone take any supplements.  I don't care if Dr. Gallant likes them -- my guess is that he would still want is patients to discuss all supplements with him PRIOR to taking them.  Many specialists recommend all kinds of things, but they aren't good for everyone.  So stop being so damned defensive and realize that the whole universe does not revolve around you and your desire to consume any "miracle" that appears.

Mike
Atripla - Started 12/05
Reyataz/Norvir - Added 6/06
Labs - Pre-Meds
Sep05 T=350/25% VL98,559
Nov05 288/18%  47,564
Current Labs
May2013 691/31% <20

Offline Hoover

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Re: Vitamins and or supplements with AIDS meds?
« Reply #24 on: October 04, 2010, 02:02:20 PM »
I think someone needs a time out.
Saying a fellow member a little shit is "name calling."

Hoover
Infection date: March 16, 2010
20/05/10 - CD4 348  VL 58,000  Lymph nodes in jaw painful!  Antioxidants started.
01/06/10 - CD4 428  VL?
24/06/10 - CD4 578  VL 9,800
13/07/10 - CD4 620  VL?
04/09/10 - CD4 648  VL?
01/11/10 - CD4 710  VL?   CD8 972
16/12/10    CD4 738  VL?  CD8  896   
02/02/11    CD4 520 (month of parasites and new lab)
14/03/11 started Truvida and Sustiva (Efavirenz)
04/07/11 CD4 686 VL 75 CD8 588  41%
10/10/11 CD4 757  45%  VL UD

Offline sharkdiver

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Re: Vitamins and or supplements with AIDS meds?
« Reply #25 on: October 06, 2010, 07:46:13 PM »
I think someone needs a time out.
Saying a fellow member a little shit is "name calling."

Hoover


I understand why he is angry. It's certainly not my job or yours to be a moderator here.

Offline pozoz

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Re: Vitamins and or supplements with AIDS meds?
« Reply #26 on: October 06, 2010, 08:10:25 PM »
I tried 4000 mg of salmon oil (omega 3) a day- 

(2 at breakfast, 2 at lunch) and a potent multi at lunch as well, then my meds after dinner.

Gave it up after a couple of weeks.

Didn't feel any better, and actually had a few GI issues, (not sure if it was the fish oil or the multi) and the multi left a bad taste in my mouth the rest of the day.

Think I'll just try and eat better...  ???
Seroconverted Aug 2008
Tested Pos      May 2009
May 09 CD4 544 19%   VL 22K
Aug 09 CD4 514  19% VL 25K
Dec 09 CD4 510  20% VL 32K
June10 CD4 502  20% VL 36K
July 5th,10 Start Truvada  Reyataz Norvir July 30  CD4 360  21% VL 339
Oct  22 CD4 459  27% VL 191
Jan 2011CD4 561 33% VL U/D <40
Feb  Add Verimune lead in dose to start switch to Verimune/Truvada  
Mar 17 Viramune x2 + Truvada. Stop PIs   
Apr 29     CD4 528 33% VL U/D
July 2011 CD4 440  %?  VL U/D
Sept 2011CD4 620  %?   VL U/D
Dec 2011 CD4 531 31% VL 224
Jan 2012  CD4 576 36% VL U/D
May 2012 CD4 504 36% U/D (start Viramune XR
July 2012 576 (36%) (test request due to XR issues)
Feb  2013 629  (? %) U/D
July  2013 608 38%.   U/D
Jan  14.    576  36%.   UD

Offline sharkdiver

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Re: Vitamins and or supplements with AIDS meds?
« Reply #27 on: October 06, 2010, 08:19:39 PM »
I tried 4000 mg of salmon oil (omega 3) a day- 

(2 at breakfast, 2 at lunch) and a potent multi at lunch as well, then my meds after dinner.

Gave it up after a couple of weeks.

Didn't feel any better, and actually had a few GI issues, (not sure if it was the fish oil or the multi) and the multi left a bad taste in my mouth the rest of the day.

Think I'll just try and eat better...  ???


yes that's another reason to be careful.

 


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