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Author Topic: Disconnects in the Nutrition Forum  (Read 4886 times)

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Offline risred1

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Disconnects in the Nutrition Forum
« on: March 06, 2009, 12:04:16 PM »
After a while, as it always seems to be the case, we have three camps here in this forum.

For the sake of simplicity....

Pro Supplement
Anti Supplement

Specific questions/comments about specific substances/food etc.

I tend to get caught up in these conversations but we seem to be constantly talking in circles and not addressing fundementally between how to approach ones health through diet.

And how supplements are used to manage issues from HIV or MEDS.

Our discussions devolve to:

Food is the best way to deliver nutrition, therefore supplements/vitamins are a waste. And I would say this is a general health approach.

Versus

I use supplements to do the following things or deal with the following issues...

This is truly a disconnect because while I use supplements to deal with HIV side effects for Metabolic, inflammatory, vascular, digestive etc. issues. It is not fundamentally dealing with general health approach to diet and nutrition. Yet we argue like that is what we are in fact discussing.

The nutritional folks, sorry for the generalization, want to keep coming back to diet. Which is fine. I don't want to argue about the need for a good diet. Although i wish folks would stop assuming we are all on the same page when terms like Good Diet are used. The point ultimately is, we need a good diet for folks who are HIV positive.

And generally the supplement folks, are touting all sorts of supplements to do all sorts of thing which quite honestly, and I will admit, are difficult to understand and justify at times. Just look at the Astragalus thread.

Way in the past, I started a thread call the great supplement shootout, where folks could argue for and against supplementation. And it was a lively discussion. But after consideration that isn't really helping bridge the gap between the idea of good nutrition starts with a good diet and defining what a good diet is for HIV positive people, and how to leverage supplements when we have conditions we want to try to manipulate.

The example I'd like to focus on is based upon Omega 3. If you go into the Lipo forum, there is a thread that talks about metabolic syndrome. In it, you'll see folks taking large quantities of Omega 3 to deal with lipid issues associated with PI treatment. I don't see arguments there that folks should focus on a "good" diet to deal with med caused lipid issues. Yet bring it here, and we devolve in to the usual, supplements are useless, pissing down the drain, that diet is all you need....

Ultimately I feel that talking about supplements in a Nutrition forum is somewhat of a conflict.

Its very difficult to talk about metabolic, inflammatory, liver, digestive and vascular issues and how supplements can be leverage when we end up talking about how a good diet is the best way to get your nutrients.

 If folks want to come here to discussion nutrition, perhaps we should leave it at that. However, how are we then to talk about supplements, not as a dietary aid, but as ways to try to deal with HIV and Med Side effects?

Thanks!
risred1 - hiv +
02/07 CD4 404 - 27% - VL 15k
10/07 CD4 484 - 31% - VL 45k
05/08 CD4 414 - 26% - VL 70k
01/09 CD4 365 - 23% - VL 65k
05/09 CD4 291 - 23% - VL 115k - Started Meds - Reyataz/Truvada
06/09 CD4 394 - ?% - VL 1200 - Boosted Reyataz with Norvir and Truvada
07/09 CD4 441 - ?% - VL 118 - Boosted Reyataz with Norvir and Truvada
09/09 CD4 375 - ?% - VL Undetectable - Boosted Reyataz with Norvir and Truvada
12/09 CD4 595 - ?% - VL Undetectable - VIT D 34 - Reyataz/Truvada/Norvir

Offline Dachshund

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Re: Disconnects in the Nutrition Forum
« Reply #1 on: March 06, 2009, 12:34:24 PM »
Of course you're entitled to your opinion and people can agree or disagree. One man's trash is another man's treasure, so to speak. People go round and round about supplements, always have, always will. If you want to post a topic, have at it. Of course if someone posts just another tired anecdote, without proof or research to back it up, they should expect a differing point of view.

If by anti-supplement you mean challenging or requesting scientific peer reviewed research when proposing "managing issues from HIV or meds" with supplements then count me in.

You're certainly free to post what you want, and people are free to respond.

Of course trying to narrowly frame the debate renders posting basically useless.

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Disconnects in the Nutrition Forum
« Reply #2 on: March 06, 2009, 12:42:38 PM »
I'll believe that someone isn't in need of focusing more on their eating habits and exercise as opposed to popping endless selenium capsules when they post a semi-nude picture of themselves for proper evaluation.  Until that moment I will continue to advocate the former as a priority.  I am not anti-supplement, just anti- this extremist position some take with them as an excuse not to focus on proper diet and exercise because that is more difficult and requires daily discipline.
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline risred1

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Re: Disconnects in the Nutrition Forum
« Reply #3 on: March 06, 2009, 03:29:32 PM »
Of course you're entitled to your opinion and people can agree or disagree. One man's trash is another man's treasure, so to speak. People go round and round about supplements, always have, always will. If you want to post a topic, have at it. Of course if someone posts just another tired anecdote, without proof or research to back it up, they should expect a differing point of view.

If by anti-supplement you mean challenging or requesting scientific peer reviewed research when proposing "managing issues from HIV or meds" with supplements then count me in.

You're certainly free to post what you want, and people are free to respond.

Of course trying to narrowly frame the debate renders posting basically useless.

Truly, I understand what your saying about the futility of "limiting" debate...

But as an observation, do you disagree with my statement about how we are discussing Nutrition and Supplements?
« Last Edit: March 06, 2009, 06:50:12 PM by risred1 »
risred1 - hiv +
02/07 CD4 404 - 27% - VL 15k
10/07 CD4 484 - 31% - VL 45k
05/08 CD4 414 - 26% - VL 70k
01/09 CD4 365 - 23% - VL 65k
05/09 CD4 291 - 23% - VL 115k - Started Meds - Reyataz/Truvada
06/09 CD4 394 - ?% - VL 1200 - Boosted Reyataz with Norvir and Truvada
07/09 CD4 441 - ?% - VL 118 - Boosted Reyataz with Norvir and Truvada
09/09 CD4 375 - ?% - VL Undetectable - Boosted Reyataz with Norvir and Truvada
12/09 CD4 595 - ?% - VL Undetectable - VIT D 34 - Reyataz/Truvada/Norvir

Offline risred1

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Re: Disconnects in the Nutrition Forum
« Reply #4 on: March 06, 2009, 03:48:33 PM »
I'll believe that someone isn't in need of focusing more on their eating habits and exercise as opposed to popping endless selenium capsules when they post a semi-nude picture of themselves for proper evaluation.  Until that moment I will continue to advocate the former as a priority.  I am not anti-supplement, just anti- this extremist position some take with them as an excuse not to focus on proper diet and exercise because that is more difficult and requires daily discipline.


First, 200 mcg, the max daily recommended does of selenium, is hardly popping endless pills. And the purpose of Selenium does have supporting documentation.

But is this really what the discussion is about?

I cannot imagine a single supplement using person argue that a good diet isn't important.

I would never argue that supplements replace the value of a good diet. And I do not know of a single supplement user on this board who would state otherwise.

Getting Sound Nutritional advise is of great value and use. I'd like to see more guidance and less generalized statements about "good" diet.

The topic you started about eating a salad is in itself an example. For how many people is a salad just lettuce and dressing? Versus a designed and balanced specific recipe of a salad that supplies X number of nutrients and protein etc. (I do realizeyour forum entry was about the dubious quality of vitamins.)

So statements are made, which is fine, and supplement folks make statments, which is fine. And what did we learn?

Did we learn how to eat better?

Do we understand that Daily Multivitamins are really not the focus of people who use supplements? ie. Omega 3, Acetyle Carnintine?

What I'm sharing is that folks on both sides of this spectrum are not really in disagreement. I don't think in general vitamins are generally useful in the context of dealing with several side effects from HIV or Meds. I don't think most folks taking supplements really disagree with that.

But if we need Fish Oil for High Triglycerides, Why is that a bad thing? If we need Carnitine for PN, Why is that a "bad" thing?

If we keep missing the point of our discussions, how are we to move forward with the best information, which is...

How to eat properly?

How to manage side effects?

I'm not solving world hunger, I'm just pointing out what I believe largely we are engaged in, which largely are futile arguments. Which is fine.

What I'd like from you and the nutritional folks is guidance on what a healthy diet is for a pos person, and to answer questions regarding nutrition.

And we need the same rigor from folks who are taking supplements. Why and for What and what evidence supports this point of view, if any. Certainly there are deficiencies, and that in itself is worthy of discussion. (Sometimes we get so hung up on the lack of information, we miss what is sometimes obvious... Like with Vitamin D)....

Anyways, you can expect that i'm going to be slanting my commentary in this manner, to try to move the conversation from the never ending pro and anti supplement debate, to news we can use... at least that is the point of view I'd like to take. Folks will of course do what they want... and that is fine.




« Last Edit: March 06, 2009, 06:50:40 PM by risred1 »
risred1 - hiv +
02/07 CD4 404 - 27% - VL 15k
10/07 CD4 484 - 31% - VL 45k
05/08 CD4 414 - 26% - VL 70k
01/09 CD4 365 - 23% - VL 65k
05/09 CD4 291 - 23% - VL 115k - Started Meds - Reyataz/Truvada
06/09 CD4 394 - ?% - VL 1200 - Boosted Reyataz with Norvir and Truvada
07/09 CD4 441 - ?% - VL 118 - Boosted Reyataz with Norvir and Truvada
09/09 CD4 375 - ?% - VL Undetectable - Boosted Reyataz with Norvir and Truvada
12/09 CD4 595 - ?% - VL Undetectable - VIT D 34 - Reyataz/Truvada/Norvir

Offline BT65

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Re: Disconnects in the Nutrition Forum
« Reply #5 on: March 06, 2009, 07:08:40 PM »
If you want to formulate a proper diet for yourself, I would suggest seeing a nutritionist or registered dietician who is familiar with HIV.  As far as supplements go, I used to have a whole shoebox full of 'em, and they did me no good; and they were expensive as hell.  Money that could have been used for better things, like gas for the car to get to the store, or, hmmm, the doctor.
I've never killed anyone, but I frequently get satisfaction reading the obituary notices.-Clarence Darrow

Offline Assurbanipal

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Re: Disconnects in the Nutrition Forum
« Reply #6 on: March 06, 2009, 08:50:46 PM »
There's another disconnect you did not mention.  That is whether or not people are on HAART.

It is one thing to take a lot of supplements when they are the only pills you are taking.  It is a different matter to do so when you are on drugs which pose potential risks to the kidneys, bone structure, blood pressure, lipids, diabetes, etc. 

You approach supplements as a method of potentially slowing the day of going on HAART, rather than from the perspective of someone on it.  I'd suggest it is important that recommendations be modulated when you are talking to members who are new to HAART and don't realize the additional potential for interactions.
5/06 VL 1M+, CD4 22, 5% , pneumonia, thrush -- O2 support 2 months, 6/06 +Kaletra/Truvada
9/06 VL 3959 CD4 297 13.5% 12/06 VL <400 CD4 350 15.2% +Pravachol
2007 VL<400, 70, 50 CD4 408-729 16.0% -19.7%
2008 VL UD CD4 468 - 538 16.7% - 24.6% Osteoporosis 11/08 doubled Pravachol, +Calcium/D
02/09 VL 100 CD4 616 23.7% 03/09 VL 130 5/09 VL 100 CD4 540 28.4% +Actonel (osteoporosis) 7/09 VL 130
8/09  new regimen Isentress/Epzicom 9/09 VL UD CD4 621 32.7% 11/09 VL UD CD4 607 26.4% swap Isentress for Prezista/Norvir 12/09 (liver and muscle issues) VL 50
2010 VL UD CD4 573-680 26.1% - 30.9% 12/10 VL 20
2011 VL UD-20 CD4 568-673 24.7%-30.6%
2012 VL UD swap Prezista/Norvir for Reyataz drop statin CD4 768-828 26.7%-30.7%

Offline AndyArrow

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Re: Disconnects in the Nutrition Forum
« Reply #7 on: March 06, 2009, 09:53:07 PM »
Hello Risred.

I thought I would come in here as an outsider and give my thoughts on the debate.  I say that I'm an outsider because my diet is atrocious and I don't take any supplements.  Only recently have I started reading the Nutrition forum.  I'm pushing 40 and the body doesn't seem to bounce back the way it used to so I'd better start eating healthy or at least a little better than how I eat now.

As Betty said to get a proper diet for you then if you can find a nutritionist who is familiar with HIV this is the best route to take.   I'm sure that's nothing you don't already know. 

If I'm reading you correctly it seems like you are interested in specific recipes or examples. So rather than saying you used to drink half a pot of coffee in the morning but it's not good for you so you've stopped.  You want someone to say I used to drink a half a pot of coffee in the morning but I've replaced that with a fruit smoothie. 

A good place to start (at least that's where I started) for some recipes is the Ian Craddock Cookbook.  It is an online interactive cookbook.  http://www.iancraddock.com/  The recipes come from a charity that delivers food to homebound people in London who are living with HIV.  It's interactive so you can give them feedback on the recipes and even submit recipes for review and they change the recipes so you can go back find something new.

As far as the supplement debate goes I think in general it's better to get your nutrients from the "food" you eat.  The reason I put food in quotes is that for anyone living in the US the FDA labels dietary supplements as a food and NOT a drug.  Don't you just love big government?  Having said that if in order to get the right number of probiotics into my GI tract I can either take 1 pill a day or eat 10 yogurts a day I'm probably gonna take the pill after I've checked that their are no interactions with my meds.  I tend to stay away from herbal supplements which have not been put through FDA's approval process because it's a "food" not a drug?!!?  ::)  Always make sure your doctor is aware of everything you take and then run it past your pharmacist too.

Okay, Now that I've rambled on I leave you with my final suggestion and that would be to start a thread consisting of recipes where people who are eating nutritionally balanced diets can post their favorites.  If it takes off we could publish our own aidsmeds/poz cookbook  ;) 
It is not the arrival that matters.  It is the journey along the way. -- Michel Montaigne

Offline risred1

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Re: Disconnects in the Nutrition Forum
« Reply #8 on: March 07, 2009, 12:13:13 AM »
If you want to formulate a proper diet for yourself, I would suggest seeing a nutritionist or registered dietician who is familiar with HIV.  As far as supplements go, I used to have a whole shoebox full of 'em, and they did me no good; and they were expensive as hell.  Money that could have been used for better things, like gas for the car to get to the store, or, hmmm, the doctor.

In my opinion, this is one of the examples that we always have pointed out...

Your experience is supplements were useless and expensive. The way you state your experience, vaults your opinion over those who are claiming benefit.

And when making statements like this, you don't say what you were taking, why you were taking them, and what you were trying to get from them....

If the point is that you could see no effect on your CD4 and VL, that help clarify the discussion. Because if I come back to you to talk about triglycerides and using the supplement Fish Oil, would your response still be the same? That fish oil is useless?

Are you going to go on the lipo forum and castigate those using supplements that their doctors are recommending they use?

Of course not.

That's the point of the disconnect on the nutrition forum.

My contention is that supplements clearly have their place. And fundamentally not as a dietary aid.

Yet that's what we endless argue about without really sharing much information.

I can't help but feel that you are burned by your experience to the point where, you have to express a viewpoint in this forum which doesn't even address the point, or the question. If a supplement comes up in discussion, trash it. useless, piss away money etc.

Also, your advocating that if one want to address a "good" HIV diet, go talk to a nutritionist familiar with HIV. Hey, that is sound advice. Can you share your experience and how you were instructed in some aspect?

Give me an idea of what a nutritionist does.

Please.
risred1 - hiv +
02/07 CD4 404 - 27% - VL 15k
10/07 CD4 484 - 31% - VL 45k
05/08 CD4 414 - 26% - VL 70k
01/09 CD4 365 - 23% - VL 65k
05/09 CD4 291 - 23% - VL 115k - Started Meds - Reyataz/Truvada
06/09 CD4 394 - ?% - VL 1200 - Boosted Reyataz with Norvir and Truvada
07/09 CD4 441 - ?% - VL 118 - Boosted Reyataz with Norvir and Truvada
09/09 CD4 375 - ?% - VL Undetectable - Boosted Reyataz with Norvir and Truvada
12/09 CD4 595 - ?% - VL Undetectable - VIT D 34 - Reyataz/Truvada/Norvir

Offline risred1

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Re: Disconnects in the Nutrition Forum
« Reply #9 on: March 07, 2009, 12:23:58 AM »
There's another disconnect you did not mention.  That is whether or not people are on HAART.

It is one thing to take a lot of supplements when they are the only pills you are taking.  It is a different matter to do so when you are on drugs which pose potential risks to the kidneys, bone structure, blood pressure, lipids, diabetes, etc. 

You approach supplements as a method of potentially slowing the day of going on HAART, rather than from the perspective of someone on it.  I'd suggest it is important that recommendations be modulated when you are talking to members who are new to HAART and don't realize the additional potential for interactions.

Your absolutely right.

My specialist has seen all my supplements and has logged them in my file. Before I consider a supplement, I do research and focus on those items which are Generally Regarded as Safe. I do discuss potential interaction with HAART medications, and will carefully consider them as far as recommendations.

Personally I will not just take anything. I focus on supplements offered by ASO's, fundementally the newyorkbuyersclub.org . And I have to have a reason or purpose of taking a supplement.

My formulation generally has no noted interaction issues with current meds. But that doesn't mean a thorough review isn't warranted.

A person on HAART needs to be sure and careful. A person on HARRT also needs to be aware of the risks and potential effects of meds. And here becomes the problem that I believe many have issue with. For those effects that may come with HAART, should we consider supplements to manage them?

What do you think?
risred1 - hiv +
02/07 CD4 404 - 27% - VL 15k
10/07 CD4 484 - 31% - VL 45k
05/08 CD4 414 - 26% - VL 70k
01/09 CD4 365 - 23% - VL 65k
05/09 CD4 291 - 23% - VL 115k - Started Meds - Reyataz/Truvada
06/09 CD4 394 - ?% - VL 1200 - Boosted Reyataz with Norvir and Truvada
07/09 CD4 441 - ?% - VL 118 - Boosted Reyataz with Norvir and Truvada
09/09 CD4 375 - ?% - VL Undetectable - Boosted Reyataz with Norvir and Truvada
12/09 CD4 595 - ?% - VL Undetectable - VIT D 34 - Reyataz/Truvada/Norvir

Offline Assurbanipal

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Re: Disconnects in the Nutrition Forum
« Reply #10 on: March 07, 2009, 07:43:37 AM »
Your absolutely right.

My specialist has seen all my supplements and has logged them in my file. Before I consider a supplement, I do research and focus on those items which are Generally Regarded as Safe. I do discuss potential interaction with HAART medications, and will carefully consider them as far as recommendations.

Personally I will not just take anything. I focus on supplements offered by ASO's, fundementally the newyorkbuyersclub.org . And I have to have a reason or purpose of taking a supplement.

My formulation generally has no noted interaction issues with current meds. But that doesn't mean a thorough review isn't warranted.

A person on HAART needs to be sure and careful. A person on HARRT also needs to be aware of the risks and potential effects of meds. And here becomes the problem that I believe many have issue with. For those effects that may come with HAART, should we consider supplements to manage them?

What do you think?

Hope I wasn't unclear before.  I use some supplements.  But I treat them as unregulated drugs.

 I have added supplements on my own initiative after talking to my doctors (fish oil) and on instruction from my doctors (calcium and vitamin D). But I talk to both the ID doc and the GP (and nowadays the endocrinologist too) before adding one.  So when the dentist suggested a multimineral, the ID doc was able to veto it due to additional kidney strain.

So yes, I do think supplements have a potential place in helping to manage side effects for people on HAART.  But the discussions on this forum should more explicitly recognize the need for consultation with one's doctors BEFORE adding a supplement.
5/06 VL 1M+, CD4 22, 5% , pneumonia, thrush -- O2 support 2 months, 6/06 +Kaletra/Truvada
9/06 VL 3959 CD4 297 13.5% 12/06 VL <400 CD4 350 15.2% +Pravachol
2007 VL<400, 70, 50 CD4 408-729 16.0% -19.7%
2008 VL UD CD4 468 - 538 16.7% - 24.6% Osteoporosis 11/08 doubled Pravachol, +Calcium/D
02/09 VL 100 CD4 616 23.7% 03/09 VL 130 5/09 VL 100 CD4 540 28.4% +Actonel (osteoporosis) 7/09 VL 130
8/09  new regimen Isentress/Epzicom 9/09 VL UD CD4 621 32.7% 11/09 VL UD CD4 607 26.4% swap Isentress for Prezista/Norvir 12/09 (liver and muscle issues) VL 50
2010 VL UD CD4 573-680 26.1% - 30.9% 12/10 VL 20
2011 VL UD-20 CD4 568-673 24.7%-30.6%
2012 VL UD swap Prezista/Norvir for Reyataz drop statin CD4 768-828 26.7%-30.7%

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Disconnects in the Nutrition Forum
« Reply #11 on: March 07, 2009, 11:58:06 AM »
Ditto on taking fish oil and calcium supplements, and I've stated this repeatedly when accused of being "anti-supplement" which is clearly not the case.  And I've always taken a multi-vitamin every day for +15 years, but then I've always had a well-rounded diet and have focused on that more, along with exercise.

I've also clearly and repeatedly described taking tons of supplements throughout the nineties, and spending hundreds of dollars monthly.  Like any of this it's impossible to say if that experience bore fruit, but I can say, without proof on any correlation, that when I stopped the supplements (meaning most of them) my cd4s continued to go up.

However, there has never been a time when I was HAART-free so I guess in terms of what risred is discussing that's neither here nor there really.  I'd be fascinated to see what would happen if he halted all supplement intakes and we could test his theories on his own lab work, but I won't hold my breath with that one.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2009, 12:00:05 PM by Miss Philicia »
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline risred1

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Re: Disconnects in the Nutrition Forum
« Reply #12 on: March 07, 2009, 12:34:52 PM »
What I'm encouraging and trying to promote is breaking this cycle of PRO and ANTI supplement view which tends to boil down to a political discussion about Food, essentially.

While I really have no issue with those who want to share their opinion regardless their view, be it pro, anti whatever, ultimately how can we use this information?

I haven't been on the forum for the year, and when I come back, its exactly the same as before. The characters have shifted, but in the end its amounts to a political diatribe about ones own beliefs. I like to share my views as much as the next person, but largely it didn't matter that I was posting or wasn't for the past year.

So its so easy just to fall back into the same ole role. Going back and forth, pro and against etc.

Have you noticed that the treatment forum has changed, and of course that has to do with the changing environment of treatment and understanding of HIV. But the Nutrition forum is static. Because in the end, we are discussing our opinions regarding Food and Pills. Something we all have feelings about.

The question I'm posing is, how can we help each other in a dialogue on a forum?

Or are we fundamentally helping ourselves by justifying and rationalizing our practices?



risred1 - hiv +
02/07 CD4 404 - 27% - VL 15k
10/07 CD4 484 - 31% - VL 45k
05/08 CD4 414 - 26% - VL 70k
01/09 CD4 365 - 23% - VL 65k
05/09 CD4 291 - 23% - VL 115k - Started Meds - Reyataz/Truvada
06/09 CD4 394 - ?% - VL 1200 - Boosted Reyataz with Norvir and Truvada
07/09 CD4 441 - ?% - VL 118 - Boosted Reyataz with Norvir and Truvada
09/09 CD4 375 - ?% - VL Undetectable - Boosted Reyataz with Norvir and Truvada
12/09 CD4 595 - ?% - VL Undetectable - VIT D 34 - Reyataz/Truvada/Norvir

Offline BT65

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Re: Disconnects in the Nutrition Forum
« Reply #13 on: March 07, 2009, 12:43:21 PM »
I just saw a dietician not too long ago, mostly for suggestions at a good diet for my diabetes.  Registered dieticians and nutritionists can, usually, tailor a diet to meet an individual's specific needs, i.e. what's good for me may not be good for someone else and vice versa.

And for the record, I take calcium w/ D, and a multivitamin every day. 
I've never killed anyone, but I frequently get satisfaction reading the obituary notices.-Clarence Darrow

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Disconnects in the Nutrition Forum
« Reply #14 on: March 07, 2009, 01:32:18 PM »
How is food "political"?  I'm getting tired of this nonsense, frankly.
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Offline risred1

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Re: Disconnects in the Nutrition Forum
« Reply #15 on: March 07, 2009, 11:11:15 PM »
How is food "political"?  I'm getting tired of this nonsense, frankly.

oh my!

Food or rather peoples opinions about food is one of the most political topics one can seek to express.

The simple fact that this forum largely hasn't changed in the year I've been away, discussing the same positions, be it pro or anti supplementation, in my opinion, is reflection of ones social outlook on life.

If I say x and you say y, and we are expressing opinion, isn't that act political?

Regardless. I'm asking questions and soliciting opinion and I'm making observations about what I see on this forum.

If someone says "see a nutritionist", My response is, tell me about your experiences with a nutritionist, as I'd like to know more. I think other would like to know more.

If someone says I have a boat load of supplements under my bed that did me no good. I think that is fair game to seek further information.

If someone suggest we should share recipes, it seems like a good idea to me.

You cook and you practice a good diet so I'm sure you have insight on the matter. I'm simply asking folks to share things we can use.

Frankly i can't use the opinion that supplements are bad or good or whatever. What's the point of continually and politically making this argument, over and over again.

This forum is about nutrition. Shouldn't we be sharing information about nutrition, diet, practices, how to and why?

Why would that make you weary?

Certainly i have my opinions, but so what. I like to learn new things. Don't you want to help?

Or are we going to be curmudgeonly about all this.... Your right of course, but if I'm making you weary, why comment?




risred1 - hiv +
02/07 CD4 404 - 27% - VL 15k
10/07 CD4 484 - 31% - VL 45k
05/08 CD4 414 - 26% - VL 70k
01/09 CD4 365 - 23% - VL 65k
05/09 CD4 291 - 23% - VL 115k - Started Meds - Reyataz/Truvada
06/09 CD4 394 - ?% - VL 1200 - Boosted Reyataz with Norvir and Truvada
07/09 CD4 441 - ?% - VL 118 - Boosted Reyataz with Norvir and Truvada
09/09 CD4 375 - ?% - VL Undetectable - Boosted Reyataz with Norvir and Truvada
12/09 CD4 595 - ?% - VL Undetectable - VIT D 34 - Reyataz/Truvada/Norvir

Offline Dachshund

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Re: Disconnects in the Nutrition Forum
« Reply #16 on: March 08, 2009, 10:17:55 AM »


Frankly i can't use the opinion that supplements are bad or good or whatever. What's the point of continually and politically making this argument, over and over again.

Why would that make you weary?


Because if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, that's why.

All one need do is read your posting history to get your "opinion" on supplements which you repeat over and over and over again. Your right, what's the point? In my opinion your new found desire for dialog is just a smokescreen to advance your agenda. You've advised supplement use before in the forums that were circumspect and you were called on it. On occasion after occasion you backtracked your opinions because you couldn't offer proof. I think one of the first kerfuffles you created was suggesting putting off the use of meds by using supplements instead. If I recall I think you were doing that at the time.

It certainly would be wearying, but I suggest folks read your posting history to get a true idea of where you're coming from. They might find your born again egalitarianism a bit selfserving.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2009, 10:23:25 AM by Dachshund »

Offline Merlin

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Re: Disconnects in the Nutrition Forum
« Reply #17 on: March 08, 2009, 06:26:00 PM »
As much as I tried to understand where all this is going, I dun feel that the Nutrition forum is static. If someone asked about a new/old supplement or offered his/her own pill list, I simply research them and then decide if I may/may not add on or delete from my own list accordingly. Doesn't mean that if someone says that by taking a crocodile extract supplement from a million year own reptile would kill the virus, I'd get worked up or ecstatic.

A balanced approach to life is implied and essential. Same thing to a balanced healthy good diet and supplementation (if needed) is implied. Most importantly, all these roundabout talk is semantics play & poppy cock useless if the obvious implied common sense is missing. Trust your own instincts if they are not always biased. ::)

In my opinion, a multivitamin is as good a place as any for a simple & economical base start. ;)
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Offline risred1

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Re: Disconnects in the Nutrition Forum
« Reply #18 on: March 08, 2009, 08:02:07 PM »
Because if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, that's why.

All one need do is read your posting history to get your "opinion" on supplements which you repeat over and over and over again. Your right, what's the point? In my opinion your new found desire for dialog is just a smokescreen to advance your agenda. You've advised supplement use before in the forums that were circumspect and you were called on it. On occasion after occasion you backtracked your opinions because you couldn't offer proof. I think one of the first kerfuffles you created was suggesting putting off the use of meds by using supplements instead. If I recall I think you were doing that at the time.

It certainly would be wearying, but I suggest folks read your posting history to get a true idea of where you're coming from. They might find your born again egalitarianism a bit selfserving.


Yes, there is no doubt that my posting history is plain to see.

But my change of heart is not about what my beliefs were or are or how they are evolving, as it is after a year of not participating, I nearly fell right back into the same role. And recognizing that, I really began to think about the whole pro or anti stances that in general were occurring just as when I left the forum.

I feel now that the opportunity in this forum to share things like recipes, or what the nutritionist experience is like, is information I can use and need to take better care of myself.

While I have an impressive list of supplements I take. I certainly will never be against good nutrition. And sometimes I really think that the arguments that spawn or the positions that are stating, including my own, become out of due course defensive in nature, defending practices, results, proof or lack thereof.

However, I am thinking that what serves us better as a community? Arguing about our opinions about supplements, or sharing information, practices, diets, experiences that can help us find answers or solutions to our problems.

In this thread, someone asked if we can share recipes. To me, that is a practical useful thing. Its not an argument. If it can help me eat better, then it would seem like a great idea. I know the folks who are experts at diet, should certainly have ways of making food interesting, appealing, a something one can eat all the time.

Are we simply divided by weather we take supplements or not? Is the suspicion that supplements take the place of good diet? I can honestly say I've never been or will ever be against getting great nutritive value from food. And I'm not being flip when I say, I don't know anyone who takes supplements would take a position against a great diet.

That is in effect, common ground.

If someone asks for information about supplements, certainly it is fair game to talk about the good and the bad so that folks can gain perspective. I respect the view that supplements really should be viewed with suspicion. I myself view them with suspicion, and recognize that they at BEST merely "move the needle" in a matter the aspect of VL and CD4. So if I seemed or were perceived as Mr. Sales Rep from NY Buyers Club, then I was sucked into more of a political position in taking one side or another. Something I think if we were to look at how we participate in the forum, clearly happens.

And if you look at my first posting when I reappeared, I almost feel into the same role.

My new found "egalitarism" as you put it, isn't so much a new view, but perhaps something that is better for me, for you for those who read these things.

Hey, I'm nearing 50, and one of my careers is as a musician. After 30+ years of playing and performing, I had a lesson with a master who was able to reveal the flaw in my technique, that was based upon a premise developed while playing with other amateurs. By understanding this flaw, I was able to suddenly put my playing on a new level.

If I can learn new things by simply asking what do you think instead of focusing on what I think, perhaps there is a greater benefit we can all realize.

-----

Now I really must state, hopefully for the record, I have never advocated supplementation over medication ever. I have expressed hope for myself that with supplementation I might be able to extend the period of being med free by keepiing my CD4 count up over the 350 line. I have had varying degree's of success and my last test has my CD4 at 365. Which promoted my Doctor to say its time. I'm going at it one more time by putting back in my regimen Green Tea Caps to the equivelence of 20 cups of decaffinated Green Tea. I test again in April, and if my CD4 doesn't move back to 400, then I'm on meds.

My specialist has told me, from time to time, that whatever I was doing keep doing it, as apparently I defied his expectations for when I would be going on medication. As a University Hospital Specialist, his expertise really isn't in question, so of course I took his statement as encouraging.

I do understand that of course this is my experience and anecdotal. But it is my experience. Will it work for someone else? Maybe yes maybe no. Is it worth pursue this practice, that for the individual to decide.

If I have to go on meds, will folks who don't believe supplementation does anything can cheer victorious, on that I truly could care less. If someone want to make me a poster boy of supplementation failure, have at it.

But then what are we collectively gaining? While I'm up for a good  discussion and argument, and by the way, there are varying amounts of what I consider valuable information regarding the supps I take, and I can produce them or link you to them, the point is, how is it important to the community? My conclusion is that we are not going to essentially settle this. And clearly, what I think or point to or what other think or point to, is just defending personal practices.

What we can do is learn about other avenues of good health. A good Diet. How to develop those habits. How to prepare food. How to stay on a diet. Where and how to get good nutrients and advice.

« Last Edit: March 08, 2009, 08:30:24 PM by risred1 »
risred1 - hiv +
02/07 CD4 404 - 27% - VL 15k
10/07 CD4 484 - 31% - VL 45k
05/08 CD4 414 - 26% - VL 70k
01/09 CD4 365 - 23% - VL 65k
05/09 CD4 291 - 23% - VL 115k - Started Meds - Reyataz/Truvada
06/09 CD4 394 - ?% - VL 1200 - Boosted Reyataz with Norvir and Truvada
07/09 CD4 441 - ?% - VL 118 - Boosted Reyataz with Norvir and Truvada
09/09 CD4 375 - ?% - VL Undetectable - Boosted Reyataz with Norvir and Truvada
12/09 CD4 595 - ?% - VL Undetectable - VIT D 34 - Reyataz/Truvada/Norvir

 


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