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Author Topic: How do you deal with Bug Chasers?  (Read 25067 times)

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Offline hotpuppy

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How do you deal with Bug Chasers?
« on: January 03, 2009, 01:04:59 AM »
Okay... first let me start by requesting that this not turn into a flame war, or a moral declaration.

I'm interested in finding out how others feel when someone approaches them and asks for HIV.  I'm very confounded and confused by it.

I've had this happen several times, the most recent being today.  Sometimes it's online, sometimes its in person.

Part of this is my need to vent, and I'm also curious how other poz folks deal with this.  Is this a gay thing? or does it happen in the straight world?

I tried talking some sense into the first one.  I did a little of that tonite with this one.  It didn't seem to work.

I told the guy to be careful what he wished for, and that he would eventually succeed in catching HIV if he tried and kept barebacking at bathhouses.  I asked him how old he was (28), and why?  I told him to be sure to get tested regularly so he could start treatment once he was poz.  I told him about poz.com and told him that the town he was from (Jacksonville, FL) wasn't exactly the center of the universe and that he'd need all the support he could get.  He didn't really have a good reason.  Of course he was "partying" with Tina (aka Crystal).  I told him he needed to get sober once he was poz... it would be the difference between a short life and a long one.  I explained that meth screws the body up and makes it easy for HIV to destroy the body.

None of this seemed to curb his desire for unsafe sex, which I refused to engage in.  I mean it's one thing to bareback with another poz guy.... but someone who doesn't know or is neg is another story. 

I asked him why, and he told me he used to play safe and that the condoms hurt his ass.  I nodded.  he went on to tell me that he tried it bare and really liked it and wasn't going back.  He said he hadn't been barebacking long.  However his definition of "not long" was 15 or 20 guys in the last few months.

What the hell is wrong with these guys?  How do you go from safe sex to actively trying to catch HIV?  WTF? 

Is it a self-esteem issue? 

He went on to complain to me that he had tried to sleep with 10 guys tonite...... and that none of them would bareback him.  Ugh.  I guess he's not bright enough to just lie and say he's poz....

Anyhow.  I felt sorry for him and yet I couldn't figure out how to get his attention and make him realize the consequences of what he was engaging in.  I see the same thing in Houston, and Dallas, and on Craigslist, and Manhunt.  Of course, sometimes they are just going "neg/clean ub2 bareback only" yea right stupidasses.  That isn't as bad as someone saying "fuck me bare and give me hiv" ugh!  Sorry I just have to vent a little.  I don't understand why someone would do that. 

Has anyone else had someone flat out ask for it?  What did you say?  Is there any reasoning with them?

I told him he probably couldn't catch my bug anyhow because I was undetectable.  He seemed to lose interest at that point.  Although I did point out that some versions of HIV are resitant to certain drugs.

I had the feeling the whole time like I was talking to someone who was going to jump off a bridge.  No matter what I said he kept saying, "Yea but I want to jump." and yet I was already falling in a sense.  I'm there, I know what it's like to take 3 pills every single day.... Of course some of you have done this for far longer than me and I respect you and don't want to take away from what you have accomplished.  I just mean that living with HIV isn't as easy as living without it and I can't for the life of me understand why someone would WANT it.

What can I say to someone like this that will make them think twice?  I know it's not my problem, but dammit I'm one of those that looks mean on the outside and actually gives a damn.  I own a cat because it was stray and living under my house and starving.... I felt sorry for it.  Damn thing owns my house practically now.  lol.  I love her anyway.  Actually, the cat has taught me more about men and relationships than anything else I've ever studied.

I thought about giving him my number so he'd have someone to talk to when the reality set in of what HIV means.  I didn't do it though.  I mean it's not really my problem, I just hate the thought of seeing someone do something incredibly self destructive, knowing that they will be bewildered, depressed, and scared when the diagnosis finally comes and lands in their lap like a ton of bricks.  It would be easier if I didn't give a damn, but I do.  Even about people I don't really know.  Especially when they are cute.

It's a struggle when you are horny and some really hot guy is asking for sex and telling you he wants it bare (which is hotter) and doesn't care if he catches your HIV.  It bothers me to think about it and realize that I'm not totally sure I would do the right thing.  The only way to resist the temptation is to disclose and avoid the situation.  I'd hate to date an HIV neg guy and have him become a bug chaser.  I'd hate it more to know that I gave HIV to someone I cared about. 

What is wrong with our prevention messages that guys in their mid to late 20's are jumping off the safe sex bridge?  What do they think they are missing by being neg?  Has this happened to you? 

I look forward to hearing about your experiences.   Some of this is venting, but I also am really bothered by it.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2009, 01:13:34 AM by hotpuppy »
Don't obsess over the wrong things.  Life isn't about your numbers, it isn't about this forum, it isn't about someone's opinion.  It's about getting out there and enjoying it.   I am a person with HIV - not the other way around.

Offline MitchMiller

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Re: How do you deal with Bug Chasers?
« Reply #1 on: January 03, 2009, 03:11:12 AM »
I think most guys are not aware of the side-effects of the meds and that HIV may have a lot of long term medical consequences even when taking HIV meds. ... in addition to the cost of meds, the issues with insurance and employment, overseas travel, working overseas, etc.  Given the guy was high, it's hard to talk sense to him, but you might have tried getting his email... and start sending him a few pics of guys w/severe lipo and see if that might scare some sense into him. 
Many gay men have been lulled into a false sense of what HIV is after being bombarded by HIV drug ads featuring body builders, mountain climbers, beach parties, etc.   From 1996 until I left NYC, every weekend I would pick up a party mag and see these ads.  I was marveling at how HIV was so treatable.. and that surely with such good treatments, a cure must be right around the corner.  Not such a hard leap of faith to make.
Your bug chaser seems to be a sex addict and wants to just become POZ so he can get hopefully get more bareback sex... probably not realizing the possible consequences of HIV and HIV treatments.

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: How do you deal with Bug Chasers?
« Reply #2 on: January 03, 2009, 04:34:40 AM »
You may be interested in this:

http://www.amazon.com/Without-Condoms-Unprotected-Sex-Barebacking/dp/0415950244

I chalk it all up to depression and social alienation.  As far as getting many of these guys into appropriate therapy -- good luck.
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline mecch

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Re: How do you deal with Bug Chasers?
« Reply #3 on: January 03, 2009, 05:56:58 AM »
A "Bug chaser" is someone who as decided he/(she?) wants to be infected with HIV.

This is not exactly the same as someone who wants unprotected sex.  However, the latter is at risk, and if he is AWARE of his risk of contracting HIV, you could say he is a "bug chaser" but not exactly.

I think the definitions are slippery and I also think there are many reasons gay guys, for example, might bareback and still not be, technically, bug chasers.

As to decided "bug chasers" i suggest a pithy, brief exchange, and then ignore them. 

As to barebackers, if you think someone is barebacking out of naivitť, ignorance, self-hatred and you feel a dialogue might help, by all means go for it. If he just wants bareback and has NO cognitive dissonance about it, or refused to examine his own contradictions, then don't waste your time.

   
ďFrom each, according to his ability; to each, according to his needĒ 1875 K Marx

Offline RapidRod

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Re: How do you deal with Bug Chasers?
« Reply #4 on: January 03, 2009, 06:06:10 AM »
A "Bug chaser" is someone who as decided he/(she?) wants to be infected with HIV.

This is not exactly the same as someone who wants unprotected sex.  However, the latter is at risk, and if he is AWARE of his risk of contracting HIV, you could say he is a "bug chaser" but not exactly.

I think the definitions are slippery and I also think there are many reasons gay guys, for example, might bareback and still not be, technically, bug chasers.

As to decided "bug chasers" i suggest a pithy, brief exchange, and then ignore them. 

As to barebackers, if you think someone is barebacking out of naivitť, ignorance, self-hatred and you feel a dialogue might help, by all means go for it. If he just wants bareback and has NO cognitive dissonance about it, or refused to examine his own contradictions, then don't waste your time.

   

This is 2009, anyone that is negative and wants to have unprotected anal or vaginal sex with anyone that is positive is a "Bug Chaser."

Offline hotpuppy

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Re: How do you deal with Bug Chasers?
« Reply #5 on: January 03, 2009, 07:25:26 AM »
I think there are a few distinctions to make:
1) Someone who is hiv neg, and aware of the risk and dating a HIV poz person and practicing safe sex is not a "bug chaser".  Even if they slip up once in a while and do something risky... they are still not a bug chaser.

2) Someone who has their head in the sand, and thinks all the hot guys in the bathhouse are hiv neg (rofl) and that you can't catch HIV.... is stupid... not a bug chaser.  Provided they do not WANT HIV, even if their behavior says otherwise.  They are just stupid and unenlightened.  A product of failed government policies more than anything else.

3) Someone who is HIV negative and wants to have bareback sex, but takes some steps to serosort and does not want HIV ..... still not a bug chaser.  I was in this category, and I was wrong and now I have HIV.  Yes Dorothy, even in Kansas bad things happen.  lol.

4) Finally we arrive at someone who is HIV neg and TRYING to catch HIV. 

I can understand and rationalize the first 3.  I'm puzzled by the 4th.  I just don't understand why someone would want HIV.  I can't help but think of all the people who slipped up once and became poz.  Yet, here is some person who is out there actively trying to catch it?  WTF? 

Does anything work to talk sense into them? 

Yea, I thought about giving him my email, but he didn't have internet access.  Strange how people's priorities are ordered.  You have money for driving 2 hours to the bathhouse, crystal meth, but no internet. 

On the bright side... I jumped right through disclosure without hesitation.  Sometimes disclosure can be a difficult thing.  He was like "Do you bareback?"  To which I replied honestly, "I like both bare and safe.  What is your status, meaning HIV status?"  He said, " I don't know."  I replied, "Okay, I'm HIV Positive so we should play safe."

Anyhow.  I wanted to tell him, okay here is a checklist of things you need to do before you test poz.

1) Health Insurance
2) Quit meth.
3) Support network,  you'll need a friend or three for when times are rough.
4) Prepare for your friends to alienate your butt
5) Be ready to have guys flat out dump you when they find out you are poz.
6) Hope you enjoy bloodwork, the doctor's office, and getting a shot or two.

Anything I left off?

I did tell him that meth would run his body down and kill him if he was HIV poz.  I told him that doing meth with HIV he had 5 years, and HIV with treatment and no drug abuse was 40.  Maybe an exaggeration, but it got my point across which was that Meth+HIV=FATAL.  Everyone I know that tweaks and is poz (and they usually wind up poz) goes downhill fast compared to guys who get clean, get meds, and have a desire to live and work hard for it.

I just have a hard time understanding it.  I mean who in their right mind would wake up and go, "Gee I want diabetes today.  Doc, I'll take type 2 with a side of insulin please." 

And that's just it.   How do you get to the wrong frame of mind where you actively try to get HIV. 

I could rationalize it if it wasn't random, let's see what I can catch, cumwhore behavior.  I mean, if the guy was Neg and dating me and had some sort of issue with condoms as a barrier.  I could see where he might try to catch it as a way to get closer or eliminate the barrier.  I think it's remotely comperable to when women sometimes quit birth control to become pregnant, thinking it will bring them closer to the man they are in love with.  Which, btw the neg guy doing something deliberate to catch HIV is one of my fears about dating a neg guy.  It would still ultimately be my fault if I allowed something to happen that caused my bf to become poz.  That would bother me.

This whole topic bothers me. 
Don't obsess over the wrong things.  Life isn't about your numbers, it isn't about this forum, it isn't about someone's opinion.  It's about getting out there and enjoying it.   I am a person with HIV - not the other way around.

Offline mecch

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Re: How do you deal with Bug Chasers?
« Reply #6 on: January 03, 2009, 07:26:22 AM »
This is 2009, anyone that is negative and wants to have unprotected anal or vaginal sex with anyone that is positive is a "Bug Chaser."
Psychologists and sociologists have researched the bug chasing and barebacking phenomena. They use established scientific methods of their professions.  Since this Forum also encourages respect for method and peer review, I suggest with due respect that you read a bit what they have to say. These issues are not cut and dry.  
wiki can direct you to some research:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bugchasing_and_giftgiving
this summary directs to some research: http://asap.ap.org/stories/644566.s

That said, you have a right to your opinion.
ďFrom each, according to his ability; to each, according to his needĒ 1875 K Marx

Offline RapidRod

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Re: How do you deal with Bug Chasers?
« Reply #7 on: January 03, 2009, 07:35:58 AM »
Psychologists and sociologists have researched the bug chasing and barebacking phenomena. They use established scientific methods of their professions.  Since this Forum also encourages respect for method and peer review, I suggest with due respect that you read a bit what they have to say. These issues are not cut and dry.  
wiki can direct you to some research:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bugchasing_and_giftgiving
this summary directs to some research: http://asap.ap.org/stories/644566.s

That said, you have a right to your opinion.

This is 2009, anyone that is negative and wants to have unprotected anal or vaginal sex with anyone that is positive is a "Bug Chaser." We are not talking those wanting to have a child and are under a doctors care.

Stupid? That would be an understatement.

Offline BlueMoon

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Re: How do you deal with Bug Chasers?
« Reply #8 on: January 03, 2009, 07:46:11 AM »
I don't moralize, just tell them that I'm not interested in passing on the virus and ignore them after that.  I know I'm not going to talk anyone out of anything, but I don't have to be a part of it.

The same goes for the guys who claim to be negative in their profiles but admit to being poz in emails.  I don't want to be around anyone that sleazy.  
...................VL.....CD4.....%
-----------------------------------------
08/10-- ......<40.....290.....42
05/10-- ......<48.....290.....46
02/10-- ......<48.....481.....44
10/09-- ......<48.....277.....46
07/09-- ......<48.....300.....38
05/09-- ........51.....449.....39
03/09-- Added Isentress
02/09-- ........65.....299.....34
11/08-- ........62.....242.....40
08/08-- ........66.....212.....29
05/08-- ......202.....217.....27
03/08-- ....5210.....187.....21
02/08-- Began Truvada/Reyataz/Norvir
12/07-- 273,000.....157.....22
11/07-- 229,000.....209.....22
10/07-- Diagnosis

It's a complex world.

Offline mecch

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Re: How do you deal with Bug Chasers?
« Reply #9 on: January 03, 2009, 07:54:04 AM »
4) Finally we arrive at someone who is HIV neg and TRYING to catch HIV. 

I can understand and rationalize the first 3.  I'm puzzled by the 4th.  I just don't understand why someone would want HIV. 
............
This whole topic bothers me. 

Yes 4) is the definition that I think is commonly given for a "bug chaser".  Chasing the virus to "catch" it.

The research and surveys have found several justifications chasers give for their decisions and behaviors.  

Don't be so naive, hotpuppy.  People are twisted.  Look at Peter's blog post about Maggiore's death and all the vitriol from BOTH camps - HIV denialists and mainstream.  

Why is it so hard to accept that the human spirit and psyche varies so greatly?

(How the hell did the Holocaust happen, after the brilliance liberalism of Weimar Germany??? I just watched Paragraph 175 - harrowing documentary about the Nazi persecution of homosexuals)

I think you're doing the right thing, trying to talk sense into people, it's generous of you, too.  Perhaps grow some thicker skin and drop the naivete and "do-gooding responsible boy" discourse, which borders on Florence Nightingale even if it comes from a good heart.  

People are strange - Jim Morrison

really really strange sometimes.
dangerous sometimes

Protect yourself from dangerous people.

ďFrom each, according to his ability; to each, according to his needĒ 1875 K Marx

Offline mecch

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Re: How do you deal with Bug Chasers?
« Reply #10 on: January 03, 2009, 07:59:04 AM »
Rapid, I agree with definition 4), given by texan, for "bug chaser".

If you are willing not to lump all barebackers into the "bug chasers" category then I agree with you, too.
ďFrom each, according to his ability; to each, according to his needĒ 1875 K Marx

Offline hotpuppy

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Re: How do you deal with Bug Chasers?
« Reply #11 on: January 03, 2009, 08:33:50 AM »
http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/5939950/bug_chasers

Interesting story on this subject.  I had already found and added "Gift Giver" to my movie list on Netflix.... now I'll move it up the list so I can watch it.

I'm not naive, and I apologize if my post comes across that way.  Yes, I have a urge to do good things from time to time. 

In a way, I see helping one of these people who has come across my path like what happened last summer.  It was a blistering hot Texas summer day.  Probably 95 out with 90% humidity.  The kind of day that makes you realize that God (whichever God(s/esses) you worship is fine here) loves you and the proof is that he(she/they) created air conditioning.  I was driving from Wal-Mart with some mechanical goodies for my sailboat.  I always take the back road because the BMW driving yoyos get on my nerves and it's a bit shorter then going through the 3 most congested intersections in Kemah.  As I came around the curve behind Home Depot I spotted something in the road.  I slowed down, and stopped.  In front of me was a big snapping turtle taking it's time across the road.  I put the truck in park and did the right thing.  I got out and gently nudged it off the road with my foot.  As I was doing so, someone in a fancy car pulled up behind me and shot me an annoyed look.  As they drove around, they realized what I was doing and smiled.  For me, knowing that I made a difference where I didn't have to, didn't need to, and when nobody was watching.... that made me feel good.

I guess mostly this is about venting.  I wouldn't wish HIV on someone, regardless of how much I disagreed or disliked them.  Although, I might wish that they get what they have coming alot sooner.  lol, that's another thread.

Normally, I'm not bothered by stupid behavior to this level.  I mean I see plenty of it.  I just wasn't prepared for this really, amazingly hot guy, to flat out ask for HIV.  I was shocked.  Yes, I could disengage and walk off.  I suppose for myself that is the easiest thing to do.

Unfortunately, as fate has it, I was born a Yankee and raised by two of them.  You know, they say you can take the Yankee out of New England, but you can't take New England out of the Yankee.  Consequently, intense debate, standing up for what you believe in, and calling it like you see it are core values I hold near and dear.  Doing the right thing is also important.  It would be easier if I had "used car morals" and could just do what was in my best interests all of the time, even at the expense of others.  I don't.  I'm by no means a doormat..... I just believe we have a moral and ethical responsibility to help others.

This isn't the first time I've run into one of these guys..... it's just the first time it happened in person.  Normally online, I either reason with them a bit or shut them down and move on.  I guess it's just different in person and I didn't expect someone to stand in front of me and after being told I was poz and establishing that they were unsure/neg be asked for HIV.  I guess in a sense I felt like he was saying "kill me."

I encourage the many active minds not to read to deep into what I'm writing here...... Just read what's written and don't make intuitive leaps.  I say what I mean and I write what I intend to say.  I'm very blunt.  I often say that the only thing certain in life is death.  Every living thing will die at some point.  I just find it strange for someone to ask for something that has a high probability of contributing their death.  Maybe that's why I don't smoke, do recreational drugs, or drink.

[/end rant][/end vent]

:)
Don't obsess over the wrong things.  Life isn't about your numbers, it isn't about this forum, it isn't about someone's opinion.  It's about getting out there and enjoying it.   I am a person with HIV - not the other way around.

Offline mecch

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Re: How do you deal with Bug Chasers?
« Reply #12 on: January 03, 2009, 09:31:22 AM »
http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/5939950/bug_chasers

Interesting story on this subject.  I had already found and added "Gift Giver" to my movie list on Netflix.... now I'll move it up the list so I can watch it.
[/end rant][/end vent]
:)

Puppy you really are very sweet.

By the way, that Rolling Stone article was controversial and widely discredited.

http://www.homosexissin.net/PORTAL/'Bug%20chaser.htm
http://www.mtv.com/onair/ffyr/protect/news_feature_04_11_03.jhtml
http://www.thebody.com/content/art32304.html

Beware of sensationalism and urban legends vis-a-vis "bug chasers" and, for that matter, "wanton" or "craven" slanted barebacker stories...  Such identities may exist but they are also used untruthfully to discredit or judge gays and gay sexuality.

Still, no doubt you did meet a bug chaser and a meth addict.  I daresay as you mention that some will roleplay this fantasy in virtual communication but might not be so eager when in the real situation.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2009, 09:41:06 AM by mecch »
ďFrom each, according to his ability; to each, according to his needĒ 1875 K Marx

Offline Moffie65

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Re: How do you deal with Bug Chasers?
« Reply #13 on: January 03, 2009, 10:38:59 AM »
Hey Puppy,

You've asked for opinions from more experienced HIV+'s, so here is mine.

"HOW DO YOU DEAL WITH BUG CHASERS?"

You DON'T.  Put a period and move on.

One can argue the pros and cons of "helping" this kind of human, but in the end, there are a plethora of reasons, mostly clinical, for a person to "sink" to this level, and pretty much anything you can think of to "help" a person like this is going to be useless.  They have gravitated to a point that mentally, they think nothing of themselves and are "using" you to achieve an end in their own minds that makes no sense, because the basis of that goal is founded on falshoods and fantasy.

Like I said, put a period and move on, there are tens of thousands of people one can help and really make a difference, so don't waste your time, you cannot save the whole world.
The Bible contains 6 admonishments to homosexuals,
and 362 to heterosexuals.
This doesn't mean that God doesn't love heterosexuals,
It's just that they need more supervision.
Lynn Lavne

Offline Miss Philicia

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  • celebrity poster, faker & poser
Re: How do you deal with Bug Chasers?
« Reply #14 on: January 03, 2009, 11:06:02 AM »
I totally agree with Daddy Tim's last post.  This is a clinical issue, and AT MOST what you should do is provide the name/address/phone number of a therapist experienced with this issue. 

If you have to post a thread on the internet on the issue then you don't have the experience to provide therapy sessions for the afflicted.  The underlying issues are simply too complex.  Anyway, they're most likely already infected with HIV by the time you're talking to them.  20 loads of hot cum up your raw ass at the bath house during a month tends to do that.
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline denb45

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Re: How do you deal with Bug Chasers?
« Reply #15 on: January 03, 2009, 11:38:47 AM »
I've heard of the term "Bug Chaser" but I have NEVER met anyone who wants to knowingly have sex with someone that is HIV+ and they are NEG, so to me, that term, has to be VERY REAR kinda like the HIV super infection............most self-respecting people I have met don't want anything to even do with a HIV+ person, and having unprotected sex with another POZ+ is outta the question, and all of the barebackers I've heard of, and some that I have known, were all Bottoms and, all POZ+ and the others may have been stoned-outta-their-mind high on METH, and just didn't give a dam about themselves are anyone else, and as for getting 20 loads of cum pumped up your ass, drugs will do that to your better judgment as well.....
« Last Edit: January 03, 2009, 11:59:10 AM by denb45 »
"it's so nice to be insane, cause no-one ask you to explain" Helen Reddy cc 1974

Offline Ann

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Re: How do you deal with Bug Chasers?
« Reply #16 on: January 03, 2009, 12:48:54 PM »

most self-respecting people I have met don't want anything to even do with a HIV+ person,


Wow, if that's true, I feel sorry for you. I have plenty of self-respecting hiv negative friends and even a few self-respecting hiv negative friends who would love to get me into the sack - with condoms, of course. And yes, these self-respecting people know my hiv status. Everyone in my life does - and none are lacking in self-respect.

As for how one deals with bug-chasers, I agree with Moffie - you don't. Walk away. As for the ones who attempt to serosort with other negative people, those are the ones I'd try to educate.

Ann
Condoms are a girl's best friend

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"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: How do you deal with Bug Chasers?
« Reply #17 on: January 03, 2009, 12:52:53 PM »
What does "self-respecting" actually even mean?
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline Ann

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Re: How do you deal with Bug Chasers?
« Reply #18 on: January 03, 2009, 01:01:12 PM »
What does "self-respecting" actually even mean?

According to Yourdictionary.com, self-respect means proper respect for oneself and one's worth as a person.

Self-respecting is an adjective used to describe a person with self-respect. :)

There's an interesting article on self-repect/self-esteem at http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/pto-19991101-000033.html

[/end hijack]

Ann
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline denb45

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Re: How do you deal with Bug Chasers?
« Reply #19 on: January 03, 2009, 01:32:42 PM »
Wow, if that's true, I feel sorry for you. I have plenty of self-respecting hiv negative friends and even a few self-respecting hiv negative friends who would love to get me into the sack - with condoms, of course. And yes, these self-respecting people know my hiv status. Everyone in my life does - and none are lacking in self-respect.

As for how one deals with bug-chasers, I agree with Moffie - you don't. Walk away. As for the ones who attempt to serosort with other negative people, those are the ones I'd try to educate.

Ann


Yeah, but you don't live the southwestern US Bible-Belt like I do, it depends on what part of the country you live in, here in the US, the atitudes about Sex, HIV/AIDS, are a lot different where I live
most here where i live won't even acknowledges their own sexually. let alone, their HIV or Gay Status
This Town (Albuquerque, NM) is a lot different than where I grew up in ( Sacramento, Ca) and after 7 yrs of living here, ( since 2001) I'm still in somewhat of a culture-shock (meaning this place just didn't have a lot of men of color , like myself) I've never been much of a country-bumpkin, I tend to be more urban   ??? but, I don't worry about others here in this place, I have my own shit to deal with, and that's enough for me.......it's less stressfull that way for me  ;D I only moved here cause, I hated paying Higher Rents, it's very cheap to live here ( Rental Wise)  why live in a area where you have to throw almost half of your income down a shit hole just on Rent....sorry for the highjack and my endless RANTS
« Last Edit: January 03, 2009, 02:48:27 PM by denb45 »
"it's so nice to be insane, cause no-one ask you to explain" Helen Reddy cc 1974

Offline GSOgymrat

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Re: How do you deal with Bug Chasers?
« Reply #20 on: January 03, 2009, 03:38:15 PM »
I'm interested in finding out how others feel when someone approaches them and asks for HIV.  I'm very confounded and confused by it.

I've had this happen several times, the most recent being today.

Where do you find these freaks?

Offline denb45

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Re: How do you deal with Bug Chasers?
« Reply #21 on: January 03, 2009, 04:20:55 PM »
Where do you find these freaks?



Now that seem to be the burning Question, I'd like to know that one my self..........
"it's so nice to be insane, cause no-one ask you to explain" Helen Reddy cc 1974

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: How do you deal with Bug Chasers?
« Reply #22 on: January 03, 2009, 04:45:39 PM »
I'd assume on-line and/or a bath house/sex club type setting.  Not that hard to imagine.  Don't you girls get out of the house?
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline Moffie65

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Re: How do you deal with Bug Chasers?
« Reply #23 on: January 03, 2009, 05:10:36 PM »
I'd assume on-line and/or a bath house/sex club type setting.  Not that hard to imagine.  Don't you girls get out of the house?

I have located a sex club here that welcomes anyone, HIV+ especially.  Yes, right here, 17 miles from Tombstone, and that just tells me the internet is what is causing this type of activity to spread so rapidly.  However, it is still the people that are drawn to that type of self destructive behavior, who are going to respond to such garbage.  Come in cowboy outfit and get in free.

No Philicia, I don't particularly like leaving my comfortable home and go to some strange place, full of people I don't know.  Doesn't work like it used to when I lived in San Francisco.  I guess settling has it's benefits.


Denb, you need to get out and enjoy Central, which is very much like Noe Valley in San Francisco than you might have thought.  Our experiences in Albq, were not often, but fun.  VA excepted.

Ann, Den innocently of course, used self-respecting in his post.  I enjoyed the oxymoron it represents in this thread.  Self respect and honor, are at the crux of the "bug chaser" phenominon.

« Last Edit: January 03, 2009, 05:16:29 PM by Moffie65 »
The Bible contains 6 admonishments to homosexuals,
and 362 to heterosexuals.
This doesn't mean that God doesn't love heterosexuals,
It's just that they need more supervision.
Lynn Lavne

Offline sharkdiver

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Re: How do you deal with Bug Chasers?
« Reply #24 on: January 03, 2009, 05:20:01 PM »
Hey hotpuppy

I once had someone email me back defending his Gift Giver behavior after I confronted him. It was like reading a letter from a serial killer; very creepy.   I'll fwd it to you if you'd like as I dare not post it here.

Offline Moffie65

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Re: How do you deal with Bug Chasers?
« Reply #25 on: January 03, 2009, 05:26:38 PM »
Gift Giver,  Oh wow, that opens up a whole new psychosis.  Now were talking arrogance, hatred, anger, and who knows what all.  This is a type that has been active since the beginning of the pandemic I think.  I remember hearing Gift Giver in the early eighties, in reference to some who were going around aggressively spreading the bug.  Not nice these types.
The Bible contains 6 admonishments to homosexuals,
and 362 to heterosexuals.
This doesn't mean that God doesn't love heterosexuals,
It's just that they need more supervision.
Lynn Lavne

Offline denb45

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Re: How do you deal with Bug Chasers?
« Reply #26 on: January 03, 2009, 06:25:49 PM »
I'd assume on-line and/or a bath house/sex club type setting.  Not that hard to imagine.  Don't you girls get out of the house?


Hunnie the last time I went to a bathhouse was back in 1979-80....I think , before the State Dept. of health closed them all down........sweetie, I'm an old fart I'm 52 hunnie  ;D
« Last Edit: January 03, 2009, 06:28:31 PM by denb45 »
"it's so nice to be insane, cause no-one ask you to explain" Helen Reddy cc 1974

Offline BlueMoon

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Re: How do you deal with Bug Chasers?
« Reply #27 on: January 03, 2009, 06:45:58 PM »
Bug chasers are real alright, or at least guys who claim to be.  I wonder if a lot of it is D & S-type role-play, where the chaser knows or suspects he's HIV+ but wants to play a game of submission.  Maybe something like a rape fantasy. 

Maybe for some it's a fertility fetish, which would explain why requests for "The Gift" usually include the words "breed" and "seed". 
...................VL.....CD4.....%
-----------------------------------------
08/10-- ......<40.....290.....42
05/10-- ......<48.....290.....46
02/10-- ......<48.....481.....44
10/09-- ......<48.....277.....46
07/09-- ......<48.....300.....38
05/09-- ........51.....449.....39
03/09-- Added Isentress
02/09-- ........65.....299.....34
11/08-- ........62.....242.....40
08/08-- ........66.....212.....29
05/08-- ......202.....217.....27
03/08-- ....5210.....187.....21
02/08-- Began Truvada/Reyataz/Norvir
12/07-- 273,000.....157.....22
11/07-- 229,000.....209.....22
10/07-- Diagnosis

It's a complex world.

Offline jcmiami

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Re: How do you deal with Bug Chasers?
« Reply #28 on: January 03, 2009, 06:50:14 PM »
I never had that happen but it were to happen to me, i would simply say "sorry but I won't do it." I would leave it at that. This guy was apparently high and you cannot rationalize with someone irrational! I know there have been quite a few studies on this "bug chaser/gift giver" syndrome but, again, if you have someone in front of you asking to "get it" you are not going to sit there and analyze the man! Also, for you own conscious, you don't not want any guilt of giving it to someone. Just my 2 cents!

Offline BlueMoon

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Re: How do you deal with Bug Chasers?
« Reply #29 on: January 03, 2009, 06:55:16 PM »
Quote
Also, for you own conscious, you don't not want any guilt of giving it to someone. Just my 2 cents!

I wouldn't want to risk criminal charges later, either.
...................VL.....CD4.....%
-----------------------------------------
08/10-- ......<40.....290.....42
05/10-- ......<48.....290.....46
02/10-- ......<48.....481.....44
10/09-- ......<48.....277.....46
07/09-- ......<48.....300.....38
05/09-- ........51.....449.....39
03/09-- Added Isentress
02/09-- ........65.....299.....34
11/08-- ........62.....242.....40
08/08-- ........66.....212.....29
05/08-- ......202.....217.....27
03/08-- ....5210.....187.....21
02/08-- Began Truvada/Reyataz/Norvir
12/07-- 273,000.....157.....22
11/07-- 229,000.....209.....22
10/07-- Diagnosis

It's a complex world.

Offline denb45

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Re: How do you deal with Bug Chasers?
« Reply #30 on: January 03, 2009, 07:01:43 PM »
Bug chasers are real alright, or at least guys who claim to be.  I wonder if a lot of it is D & S-type role-play, where the chaser knows or suspects he's HIV+ but wants to play a game of submission.  Maybe something like a rape fantasy. 

Maybe for some it's a fertility fetish, which would explain why requests for "The Gift" usually include the words "breed" and "seed". 

I can't Imagine any one who would want HIV/AIDS (who's not Positive) via Role-Play, fetish Breed or Seed or whatever means, now I do know many guys that are POZ+ that like to be Breeded and Seeded, so to speak, but like I said early on in this Thread, they are already POZ+ and are Total Bottom Sex Pigs , now if they became POZ+ due to this, that is only something they would know for sure.........
« Last Edit: January 03, 2009, 07:03:48 PM by denb45 »
"it's so nice to be insane, cause no-one ask you to explain" Helen Reddy cc 1974

Offline Buckmark

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Re: How do you deal with Bug Chasers?
« Reply #31 on: January 03, 2009, 08:29:53 PM »
Where do you find these freaks?

I'm wondering the same thing.  I've been positive for about 20 years, and have yet to actually meet or have any interaction with a bug chaser.  I do believe they exist, somewhere.  I think I just lead an exceeding boring life.

Regards,

Henry
"Life in Lubbock, Texas, taught me two things:
     One is that God loves you and you're going to burn in hell.
     The other is that sex is the most awful, filthy thing on earth and you should save it for someone you love."
- Butch Hancock, Musician, The Flatlanders

Offline denb45

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Re: How do you deal with Bug Chasers?
« Reply #32 on: January 03, 2009, 08:37:21 PM »
I'm wondering the same thing.  I've been positive for about 20 years, and have yet to actually meet or have any interaction with a bug chaser.  I do believe they exist, somewhere.  I think I just lead an exceeding boring life.

Regards,

Henry


Bug Chasers all seem to be somewhat of an Urban-myth , you know, someone that knows someone, that has heard, but has never had sex with one, are even seen one........to the best of my knowledge, I've never had sex with a known Bug Chaser, if I did, after he was seeded, he never told me he was
a Bug Chaser, I'm not real sure just how I would have handled this  ??? I suppose I would take him to go get some Peep-Meds.............dunno  ???
« Last Edit: January 03, 2009, 08:43:39 PM by denb45 »
"it's so nice to be insane, cause no-one ask you to explain" Helen Reddy cc 1974

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: How do you deal with Bug Chasers?
« Reply #33 on: January 03, 2009, 09:42:42 PM »
Go register a user name at bugshare.net and spend an evening getting grossed out.
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline hotpuppy

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Re: How do you deal with Bug Chasers?
« Reply #34 on: January 04, 2009, 12:36:54 AM »
I appreciate everyone's input and thoughts.  It's always interesting to see the diversity of attitudes, lifestyles, and beliefs.

I'm done with this topic and plan to move on.  It has reinforced my motivation to work on prevention/awareness. 
Don't obsess over the wrong things.  Life isn't about your numbers, it isn't about this forum, it isn't about someone's opinion.  It's about getting out there and enjoying it.   I am a person with HIV - not the other way around.

Offline randym431

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Re: How do you deal with Bug Chasers?
« Reply #35 on: January 04, 2009, 09:22:05 AM »
Why “are” there bug chasers, I wonder?
I don’t know.
Maybe some sort of thrill walking a thin line?
Some sort of mindset where they feel they have figured life out, or feel
immortal and immune to consequences,.
Maybe some sort of depression issue. Low self esteem?

In the same tone, why does a smoker that has had strokes, heart attacks, or cancers still
continue to smoke?
Why does a race car driver or any other highly dangerous sport partaker keep at it?
Especially after experiencing life threatening injuries?
Like "I'm Gay, and I am going to experience Gay life to its unprotected fullness, even if
it kills me".

How about the need to hurt someone they are close to, by throwing care to the wind?
Like driving down a road at high speed, considering crossing the white line into a head on collision, thinking "that will show them" (a loved one they feel hurt by).

Of all the wondering, I'd doubt if it’s simply a desire in wanting to become positive just for the sake of getting sick.
It has to be some sort of depression, a detachment from reality, grouse misjudgment, getting even thing, or thrill seeking by playing with fate.

If someone in a bar for example, looked very sick and unhealthy, and others knew they were positive, I doubt anyone would seek them out for unsafe sex.
There would have to be a sexual desire in addition to some hiv chasing desire…?
Who knows? Maybe they just want some complication in their boring life.
Hiv, meds, routine doctor visits and the unknown would sure fill that bill.

Or... how about two romantically involved people, one hiv pos and the other neg, wanting to share the experience with their loved one to feel closer. Bonded.
Possibly the positive person would never risk the other becoming positive,
so that neg person seeks out another positive person to achieve their goal.

With today’s meds giving positive people much hope at a near normal life,
I simply believe a lot of guys just feel ok with taking a risk. Especially when the old
sex hormone wins out over good judgment. You know, when that "other" head
takes over making the decisions.

There are plenty of ruined marriages, ruined political careers as well as ruined celebrity careers just because the old horny bug took over. Why would poor judgment concerning some health risk be any different? (Well maybe that is different, thats talking horny, not chasers. A thought, but off track.)

Which brings it back to bug chasers. What does it say about someone positive who doesn’t mind granting that chasers wish? Now that to me is a much more disturbing issue. And sadly there is a lot more of that kind around than you might think.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2009, 09:36:54 AM by randym431 »

Offline OneTampa

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Re: How do you deal with Bug Chasers?
« Reply #36 on: January 04, 2009, 03:48:02 PM »
First off: Please note that many different "bugs" (not just HIV) have a great sense of direction, are world travelers and great at hitching rides.  Meaning, that bug chaser can escort and drop off  an unwelcome boarder to take up residence in your body as well and compromise all the hard work you put in to maintain your health as an HIV+ survivor.

Second and finally: These bug chasing people have some deep issues and need help (as noted in previous posts to this thread). You are right to refuse to be an accessory.   

Take care.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2009, 04:09:31 PM by OneTampa »
"He is my oldest child. The shy and retiring one over there with the Haitian headdress serving pescaŪto frito."

Offline denb45

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Re: How do you deal with Bug Chasers?
« Reply #37 on: January 04, 2009, 07:11:48 PM »
Go register a user name at bugshare.net and spend an evening getting grossed out.

I see nothing wrong with Breeding & Seeding a POZ+ guy's nice ass, that's into it, nothing gross about that to me....risky for STD's YES, can I and my POZ+ sex partner get HIV, NO we already have it, is there any change of Drug Resistance ....maybe, but where is the proof of that form the CDC, I've never seen any
« Last Edit: January 04, 2009, 07:25:15 PM by denb45 »
"it's so nice to be insane, cause no-one ask you to explain" Helen Reddy cc 1974

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: How do you deal with Bug Chasers?
« Reply #38 on: January 04, 2009, 07:33:38 PM »
I'm not sure what that has to do with what I wrote unless you care to explain it.
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline denb45

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Re: How do you deal with Bug Chasers?
« Reply #39 on: January 04, 2009, 07:45:01 PM »
I'm not sure what that has to do with what I wrote unless you care to explain it.


If you mean bug chasers are gross ( someone that's want to get infected by another POZ+) then YES, that's a little unsettling to me, that bug share website (someone who wants HIV/AIDS has to have some serious mental issues) but if your already POZ+ and like unprotected sex with other Pozzies, then no.....is what I meant  ;D
« Last Edit: January 04, 2009, 07:52:05 PM by denb45 »
"it's so nice to be insane, cause no-one ask you to explain" Helen Reddy cc 1974

Offline bimazek

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Re: How do you deal with Bug Chasers?
« Reply #40 on: January 04, 2009, 08:28:19 PM »
when u wrote this part......."I had the feeling the whole time like I was talking to someone who was going to jump off a bridge.  No matter what I said he kept saying, "Yea but I want to jump." "

i think you hit the nail on the head, first there is a very large group of gays and even larger group of young gays who are suicidal (alcohol, cigs, poppers, bug chasing) because they had one identity ==  st8t and going to marry and have kids and then one day wake up to a new identity and they cannot accept it so it is really a mental problem of coming out of closet and being honest etc

but also there is a pull toward death for every human, and if you think it is not true i can explain in detail, death is a reconnection with something bigger and universal and it has an attraction , esp. for those who have altered minds from drugs

also ask yourself why you care so much about helping this person, why no just walk away like the majority does in 3rd world india with the poor etc, perhaps you feel you must help and it is part of your denial of your own status,  eg  if i help him then i help myself somehow

in any case, death is always very very close from moment of birth

also in the sexually excited state of the mind, turned on so to speak, many things get warped and esp. when on meth,

just think how different a person looks after the sex the next morning than before

there are many complex issues here

i mean in 1984 the gays in SF were screaming and demanding the baths not be shut so that thier lifestyle would not be stopped even though thousands got infected there and public health wanted to shut them

why was there a blood donation center in the castro from 1975 to 1989 taking tainted blood from gays who were supporting themselves and their drug habits and dancing all night and sleeping with thousands and going to give blood to get money to live

greed, lack of love, bad decisions --- they rise endlessly in human mind according to buddah

compassion for the weakness of humans

is called for

but  this is a big big topic

with

why does christian societies "help" gays who have hiv but not too much not enough so that they can have safe loved filled lives but just enough to keep them on edge of homelessness

big questions of human kind

why are we treating and not capturing and forcing into rehab prisions every hiv poz person who tests poz for meth???  to save themselves and society

why are there no dog catchers in cities anymore

why is sexual aggrevated assault a big crime in most states

why is someone who willfully smokes every day and kills themselves and those around them allowed but

we who made one mistake

have a life of hell and shame and such

one way ticket to hell, but i dont even believe in hell

why do we have such a high opinion of human kind when so much is

greed evil, hate, killing

taking advantage of others

why is it ok



Offline komnaes

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Re: How do you deal with Bug Chasers?
« Reply #41 on: January 04, 2009, 09:51:11 PM »
Were you drunk or high on something when you wrote this bimazek? This is the most confused piece of rambling mixed with half truths that I have ever seen here..

There are not so many complex issues as you have claimed.. IF only you could get the facts right.

Whether closing bath houses is a good way to help stop the spreading of AIDS is very contentious. The fact is San Francisco has outlawed them, and they are quickly replaced with sex clubs that are even more raunchy. Now there are many safe sex campaigns being launched inside saunas that are effective - so, what would you rather do as a policy makers? Shut everything down so you drive us to parks, toilets etc, so at least have us concentrated in a relatively neat and safe environment where you can do education and last minute persuasion?

And about that blood donation center, I demand proofs.

And for the rest of your statements bordering on psychopathic about locking up HIVers addicted to meth.. I wouldn't even respond to give it credibility, which has none to start with. And may I suggest you seek some counseling?
Aug 07 Diagnosed
Oct 07 CD4=446(19%) Feb 08 CD4=421(19%)
Jun 08 CD4=325(22%) Jul 08 CD4=301(18%)
Sep 08 CD4=257/VL=75,000 Oct 08 CD4=347(16%)
Dec 08 CD4=270(16%)
Jan 09 CD4=246(13%)/VL=10,000
Feb 09 CD4=233(15%)/VL=13,000
Started meds Sustiva/Epzicom
May 09 CD4=333(24%)/VL=650
Aug 09 CD4=346(24%)/VL=UD
Nov 09 CD4=437(26%)/VL=UD
Feb 10 CD4=471(31%)/VL=UD
June 10 CD4=517 (28%)/VL=UD
Sept 10 CD4=687 (31%)/VL=UD
Jan 11 CD4=557 (30%)/VL=UD
April 11 CD4=569 (32%)/VL=UD
Switched to Epizcom, Reyataz and Norvir
(Interrupted for 2 months with only Epizcom & Reyataz)
July 11 CD=520 (28%)/VL=UD
Oct 11 CD=771 (31%)/VL=UD(<30)
April 12 CD=609 (28%)/VL=UD(<20)
Aug 12 CD=657 (29%)/VL=UD(<20)
Dec 12 CD=532 (31%)/VL=UD(<20)
May 13 CD=567 (31%)/VL=UD(<20)
Jan 14 CD=521 (21%)/VL=UD(<50)

Offline bocker3

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Re: How do you deal with Bug Chasers?
« Reply #42 on: January 04, 2009, 10:13:58 PM »
.... because they had one identity ==  st8t and going to marry and have kids and then one day wake up to a new identity and they cannot accept it so it is really a mental problem of coming out of closet and being honest etc
There is so much wrong in your post that my head is spinning, but this bit stands out the most.

I don't know about you and I won't speak for others, but I sure as shit KNOW that I was never straight -- I didn't "wake up to a new identity", it was always there.  I may have tried to hide it and fight it (even slept with women because I wanted to "prove" that I wasn't gay), but I was gay as far back as I remember.

Please put a little more thought into your meandering posts.

Mike
Atripla - Started 12/05
Reyataz/Norvir - Added 6/06
Labs - Pre-Meds
Sep05 T=350/25% VL98,559
Nov05 288/18%  47,564
Current Labs
May2013 691/31% <20

Offline denb45

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Re: How do you deal with Bug Chasers?
« Reply #43 on: January 04, 2009, 10:55:55 PM »
Were you drunk or high on something when you wrote this bimazek? This is the most confused piece of rambling mixed with half truths that I have ever seen here..

There are not so many complex issues as you have claimed.. IF only you could get the facts right.

Whether closing bath houses is a good way to help stop the spreading of AIDS is very contentious. The fact is San Francisco has outlawed them, and they are quickly replaced with sex clubs that are even more raunchy. Now there are many safe sex campaigns being launched inside saunas that are effective - so, what would you rather do as a policy makers? Shut everything down so you drive us to parks, toilets etc, so at least have us concentrated in a relatively neat and safe environment where you can do education and last minute persuasion?

And about that blood donation center, I demand proofs.

And for the rest of your statements bordering on psychopathic about locking up HIVers addicted to meth.. I wouldn't even respond to give it credibility, which has none to start with. And may I suggest you seek some counseling?

I'm still trying to understand  bimazek  post, but I cannot  ??? for some reason...what in the Hell was THAT!
« Last Edit: January 04, 2009, 10:57:51 PM by denb45 »
"it's so nice to be insane, cause no-one ask you to explain" Helen Reddy cc 1974

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: How do you deal with Bug Chasers?
« Reply #44 on: January 04, 2009, 10:57:43 PM »

If you mean bug chasers are gross ( someone that's want to get infected by another POZ+) then YES, that's a little unsettling to me, that bug share website (someone who wants HIV/AIDS has to have some serious mental issues) but if your already POZ+ and like unprotected sex with other Pozzies, then no.....is what I meant  ;D

You obviously didn't register and spend a few hours on that web board.  I didn't get any more specific that that.  I could care less what to HIV+ people do together.
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline denb45

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Re: How do you deal with Bug Chasers?
« Reply #45 on: January 04, 2009, 11:06:00 PM »
You obviously didn't register and spend a few hours on that web board.  I didn't get any more specific that that.  I could care less what to HIV+ people do together.

I didn't have to, the Name Bug-share was enough to not interest me........but whatever, to each his own!
no love lost Dear  :-*
"it's so nice to be insane, cause no-one ask you to explain" Helen Reddy cc 1974

Offline anniebc

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Re: How do you deal with Bug Chasers?
« Reply #46 on: January 05, 2009, 02:08:26 AM »
Bimezek

Hopefully when you finally come to your senses and check your post you wll be able to see what you have written with a cler head and edit some of the nonsense you have written..and while you are at it maybe an apology to Hotpuppy for this little gem.

Quote
perhaps you feel you must help and it is part of your denial of your own status,  eg  if i help him then i help myself somehow

Jan
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Never knock on deaths door..ring the bell and run..he really hates that.

Offline Ann

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Re: How do you deal with Bug Chasers?
« Reply #47 on: January 05, 2009, 02:22:26 AM »
Bim,

Dog catchers? Fuck off.

Ann
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Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

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Offline Moffie65

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Re: How do you deal with Bug Chasers?
« Reply #48 on: January 05, 2009, 08:43:55 AM »
For the record!

I was born Gay, and nothing in the straight world has changed that for the last 62 years!

When the Gay Baths were closed in San Francisco; the straight baths on Lombard and Oak street were left open, and I was welcomed there every visit.  Also, the Waterworks in Palo Alto, the Water Garden in San Jose, the Steamworks in Oakland all appreciated a rather large increase in business.   What does the closing of the baths have to do with the spread of HIV?  The Patio and backrooms of the bars were never closed either.  Listen, I don't even know why it is important for me to respond to that post, but for the clarity of history.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2009, 04:59:33 PM by Moffie65 »
The Bible contains 6 admonishments to homosexuals,
and 362 to heterosexuals.
This doesn't mean that God doesn't love heterosexuals,
It's just that they need more supervision.
Lynn Lavne

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: How do you deal with Bug Chasers?
« Reply #49 on: January 05, 2009, 11:06:35 AM »
What does the closing of the baths have to do with the spread of HIV? 

Oh, I'd say about as much as the connection between gay suicide and poppers.
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

 


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