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Poll

Are we responsible of our HIV infection as we got it through unprotected sexual intercourse ?

Always
12 (32.4%)
Most of time
6 (16.2%)
Not Always
13 (35.1%)
Never
1 (2.7%)
Other
5 (13.5%)

Total Members Voted: 37

Author Topic: Are we responsible of our HIV infection ?  (Read 8127 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline John2038

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Are we responsible of our HIV infection ?
« on: December 10, 2008, 05:05:01 AM »
Hi,

By having unprotected sex we have expose ourself to HIV and got infected.

Are each of us fully responsible for our infection ?

How about stable relationship where one partner betray the other, get infected and infect his/her official partner ?

How about someone knowing he/she is infected by hiding it to you ?

Some courts have condemned some poz of having transmit HIV to their partner.
So obviously, things are not always black or white as some are suggesting here, without knowing the story behind each infection.

Your arguments ?

John

Offline Angel-Ronnie

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Re: Are we responsible of our HIV infection ?
« Reply #1 on: December 10, 2008, 05:12:51 AM »
we sometimes trust those we love and yes we made a mistake but we can't take full blame as those who infected us doesn't even know they have it and those who do well it was making a wrong call at the wrong time.
Bide the Wiccan law ye must,
In perfect love and perfect trust
Eight words the Wiccan Rede fulfill
An' ye harm none, do what ye will.

What ye send forth comes back to thee,
so ever mind the Law of three,
follow this with mind and heart,
Merry ye meet, and merry ye part.

Offline carousel

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Re: Are we responsible of our HIV infection ?
« Reply #2 on: December 10, 2008, 06:12:42 AM »
I'm not going to dwell on it or beat myself up about it.  It happened.  I learned.  I try and take care of myself a bit better. I don't take drugs anymore.  I don't speak to the person anymore.  I've deleted their number from the phone.  I don't blame them or myself.

Offline GSOgymrat

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Re: Are we responsible of our HIV infection ?
« Reply #3 on: December 10, 2008, 06:46:13 AM »
Sorry to all you newbies but my infection was 16 years ago. Personally, I'm over it. As far as other people, I don't judge people by how they were infected.

Offline weasel

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Re: Are we responsible of our HIV infection ?
« Reply #4 on: December 10, 2008, 08:25:32 AM »
there is a lot , and i mean a lot of people that got

 HIV ? AIDS from other sources not from having unprotected sex !

 In Las Vegas , Nevada the health clinics were giving away HIV with flue shots !

 Several clinics have been indited in this huge faux paw of the safety of human life !

 For the sake of saving a few dollars they will now pay MILLIONS  to the people

they infected !

 As Ford said , it does NOT matter how it occured , We are all in the same boat now !

 Life gets back to normal , It has to .
 
 I am ashamed to say  i would rather have AIDS than have diabetes ,i think my chances at

 a long happy healthy life are much better , sad indeedy , but a mouth full of pills and

 my life goes on .........................................................

                                     my prayers and love to all ,

                                       we are living in a good time " now "

                                                                      karl  :-*
" Live and let Live "

Offline skeebo1969

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Re: Are we responsible of our HIV infection ?
« Reply #5 on: December 10, 2008, 08:36:18 AM »
By having unprotected sex we have expose ourself to HIV and got infected.

  Hard to blame someone else when we "expose" ourself.


Are each of us fully responsible for our infection ?

  I can't answer for everyone, only myself.  

How about stable relationship where one partner betray the other, get infected and infect his/her official partner ?

  Are you talking about marriage?  What is an official partner?  Help me I don't understand.

How about someone knowing he/she is infected by hiding it to you ?

  How would you know if they were hiding it from you, where would you draw your official proof I mean?

Some courts have condemned some poz of having transmit HIV to their partner.
So obviously, things are not always black or white as some are suggesting here, without knowing the story behind each infection.

  In your case I always assumed from the many women you slept with that you did not know which one infected you and I also assumed you were infected many times over because... well...  John you  pull a lot of females.   You should consider yourself lucky....  ummm like a stuntman.  You jumped your motorcycle over buses many times without incident pleasing many audiences,  but you jumped one too many times and that last time your wheel clipped a bus, sending you toppling over. Is it the crowds fault you hurt yourself?  

  I voted other by the way.  I can't explain why though....
  
I despise the song Love is in the Air, you should too.

Offline mecch

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Re: Are we responsible of our HIV infection ?
« Reply #6 on: December 10, 2008, 08:40:52 AM »
John,

You sure about the wording of your survey?

Train-wreckuvathread commin round the bend

So obviously, things are not always black or white as some are suggesting here, without knowing the story behind each infection.

Spell out what you are getting at. Do you mean you see people in this forum: "as some are suggesting here" -- want/insist that poz people take sole responsibility for their HIV infection, and furthermore, you rather disagree, because of individual circumstances?  But that's not an option in the wording of your survey.  Your survey is prescriptive:  

http://knowledge-base.supersurvey.com/survey-questions.htm

http://coe.sdsu.edu/eet/Articles/surveyquest/index.htm

Respectfully,

mecch

I don't get it....
ďFrom each, according to his ability; to each, according to his needĒ 1875 K Marx

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Are we responsible of our HIV infection ?
« Reply #7 on: December 10, 2008, 11:22:15 AM »


How about stable relationship where one partner betray the other, get infected and infect his/her official partner ?

Define "stable relationship" here please.  I know PLENTY of people who think a relationship is "stable" when they ought not.  Some people might think 3 months is time to throw out the condoms, when others more wisely and prudently would not even consider that.

Hence why this phrase is used by many as a crutch and/or excuse.
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline Assurbanipal

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Re: Are we responsible of our HIV infection ?
« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2008, 12:51:48 PM »
HIV is a virus.  It lives, mindless but evil, only to use our bodies to reproduce itself.

It is our enemy.  We should kill it.

Focusing blame on people who have the virus distracts from the real target. 

5/06 VL 1M+, CD4 22, 5% , pneumonia, thrush -- O2 support 2 months, 6/06 +Kaletra/Truvada
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Offline LordBerners

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Re: Are we responsible of our HIV infection ?
« Reply #9 on: December 10, 2008, 01:53:46 PM »
Interesting question.  I voted 'never'.
Please, just call me Berners.. or Baron.

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Are we responsible of our HIV infection ?
« Reply #10 on: December 10, 2008, 02:06:01 PM »
We're never responsible for our own HIV infection?  You can't be serious.

It's a sad, sad day on aidsmeds.
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline LordBerners

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Re: Are we responsible of our HIV infection ?
« Reply #11 on: December 10, 2008, 02:12:09 PM »
We're never responsible for our own HIV infection?  You can't be serious.

It's a sad, sad day on aidsmeds.

I was just questioning the validity of the philosophical concept of 'free will' or individual volition, Miss Philicia.  I will gladly retract my posting if it upsets anyone, with my apologies.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2008, 03:06:36 PM by LordBerners »
Please, just call me Berners.. or Baron.

Offline newt

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Re: Are we responsible of our HIV infection ?
« Reply #12 on: December 10, 2008, 02:38:55 PM »
This is a rather narrow, loaded and ungrammatical question don't you think? I am me and you are virtually you, but are we a "WE" and are we a "WE" with the Thai working girls who need that extra buck for their kid's school fees of the russian soldiers shooting up amphetamines in a cold serbian winter, or the kid who's mother didn't get her nevirapine in time and many other scenarios?
"The object is to be a well patient, not a good patient"

Offline RapidRod

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Re: Are we responsible of our HIV infection ?
« Reply #13 on: December 10, 2008, 02:43:51 PM »
I was just questioning the validity of the philisophical concept of 'free will' or individual volition, Miss Philicia.  I will gladly retract my posting if it upsets anyone, with my apologies.

I wasn't upset but it just goes to show that some people will never accept the blame and always want someone to believe it was the fault of others.

Offline Cliff

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Re: Are we responsible of our HIV infection ?
« Reply #14 on: December 10, 2008, 03:00:17 PM »
I think blame (responsibility) is a loaded word and don't think it's helpful.  It takes the focus off the reasons why people become infected and makes being infected with HIV sound like a bad/evil thing that must be punished!  And even still, accepting how we've come to be infected can take a long time.  Why must we all accept blame/responsibility at others' insistence?  We all have our own journey to take.

Offline Basquo

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Re: Are we responsible of our HIV infection ?
« Reply #15 on: December 10, 2008, 03:06:03 PM »
John, you say "we" and then you say "each of us."  Which is it? Collective or individual? If it's individual, shouldn't the choices be yes or no? If it's "we," then why use the word "each"? Once again you've created a poll that doesn't make sense to an end that no one can figure out.  

Fresh or frozen, I wish you peace for 2009.

Offline LordBerners

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Re: Are we responsible of our HIV infection ?
« Reply #16 on: December 10, 2008, 03:09:40 PM »
This is a rather narrow, loaded and ungrammatical question don't you think? I am me and you are virtually you, but are we a "WE" and are we a "WE" with the Thai working girls who need that extra buck for their kid's school fees of the russian soldiers shooting up amphetamines in a cold serbian winter, or the kid who's mother didn't get her nevirapine in time and many other scenarios?

Excellent point.. power is a prerequisite to responsibility, even if we accept the idea of responsibility.
Please, just call me Berners.. or Baron.

Offline David_CA

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Re: Are we responsible of our HIV infection ?
« Reply #17 on: December 10, 2008, 03:39:49 PM »
I'm responsible for becoming infected with HIV, but I certainly can't answer for others.  If your question refers to those infected from unprotected promiscuous activity, then I'd answer yes.  If you're referring to people who were infected by an unfaithful spouse / partner, the answer isn't so clear cut.  How about a child born with HIV from an infected mother?  Surely that child isn't responsible for becoming infected.  Still others were infected from blood transfusions; how are they responsible for being infected? 

I don't think this question can be answered with a check mark or selection on a web forum.  If the question was "Are you responsible for your HIV infection?", I think you'd be able to get 'real' answers.  As it is, how can any of us answer for other HIV+ people in general?
Black Friday 03-03-2006
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Offline anniebc

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Re: Are we responsible of our HIV infection ?
« Reply #18 on: December 10, 2008, 03:53:12 PM »
John

I hardley ever read your posts I find the majority of them pretty pointless, you are always be asking pointless questions from the  other members....well here's one for you:

When the hell are you going to stop playing the frigging victim?

I think the only reason you put up threads like this is because you are waiting for someone to tell you, you were not the one to blame, you were the innocent party in all this... get over yourself John I'm sick of you flooding this forum with your personal crap...you had unprotected sex, you got infected..frigging wise up and deal with it.

Jan
(who will gladly take a 7 day TO for this post)

Edited to add.... I would like John, Leatherman and others to know that I posted this as a Member and not as a Moderator of these forums.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2008, 04:48:26 PM by anniebc »
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Never knock on deaths door..ring the bell and run..he really hates that.

Offline skeebo1969

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Re: Are we responsible of our HIV infection ?
« Reply #19 on: December 10, 2008, 03:58:23 PM »


  John1234,

     Is it possible to put an "All the Above" choice in your question?  It will help with the confusion.
I despise the song Love is in the Air, you should too.

Offline komnaes

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Re: Are we responsible of our HIV infection ?
« Reply #20 on: December 10, 2008, 10:13:51 PM »
Once again, he's doing his own psychoanalysis
When the hell are you going to stop playing the frigging victim?

I have learned that it's the way some folks deal with their internal turmoils by making it everyone's problem - a public issue. I was told to just ignore this type of thread instead of trying to make a point about this pointlessness.
Aug 07 Diagnosed
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Offline northernguy

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Re: Are we responsible of our HIV infection ?
« Reply #21 on: December 10, 2008, 10:39:36 PM »
Whoa!  Aren't you making quite an assumption, that everyone here got HIV from unprotected sex?  In my case, it had to have come from an instance when the condom broke (I remember the fellow saying it, quite nonchalantly "Oh, I think the condom broke" :(). 
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Offline skeebo1969

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Re: Are we responsible of our HIV infection ?
« Reply #22 on: December 10, 2008, 10:43:09 PM »
Whoa!  Aren't you making quite an assumption, that everyone here got HIV from unprotected sex?  In my case, it had to have come from an instance when the condom broke (I remember the fellow saying it, quite nonchalantly "Oh, I think the condom broke" :(). 

 How friggin ironic!!  I use to always say "Ut oh, I think the condom broke!!"
I despise the song Love is in the Air, you should too.

Offline anniebc

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Re: Are we responsible of our HIV infection ?
« Reply #23 on: December 11, 2008, 01:14:52 AM »
Once again, he's doing his own psychoanalysis
I have learned that it's the way some folks deal with their internal turmoils by making it everyone's problem - a public issue. I was told to just ignore this type of thread instead of trying to make a point about this pointlessness.

Point taken komnaes... ;D

Hugs
 :-*
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
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Offline edfu

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Re: Are we responsible of our HIV infection ?
« Reply #24 on: December 11, 2008, 03:52:56 AM »
I am in the extreme minority here--not just because of my age, 66.  In my now-unique case I must state that I am not responsible for my infection.  What I am responsible for is choosing to ignore the dictates of organized religion, the laws of the government at that time, and the warnings from my mother and participating in sodomitical relations with other gay men.   My last sexual activity with another human being was September 10, 1982.  I was infected with HIV in 1982 or earlier.  (And I do not regret anything I did for the preceding twenty years.)   At that time, boys and girls, no one knew  that there was a virus that came to be called HIV, and no one had "scientifically" and definitively proven how to prevent its acquisition.   

I have known over 150 ex-lovers, friends, and acquaintances who have died from AIDS-related complications, beginning with the time when this pandemic was known as GRID (Gay-Related Immune Deficency).  IMHO, a majority of these were infected prior to having any knowledge of this then-fatal illness.   

How do we play the "responsibility" game with all those who died in the 1980s and even later?  I do not wish to forget any of them or to malign their memories with playing the blame game in the 2000s.  I realize the situation is entirely different today, but I just wanted to remind everyone of what happened to an entire generation of "innocent" gay men.   R.I.P. 
"No one will ever be free so long as there are pestilences."--Albert Camus, "The Plague"

"Mankind can never be free until the last brick in the last church falls on the head of the last priest."--Voltaire

Offline Buckmark

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Re: Are we responsible of our HIV infection ?
« Reply #25 on: December 11, 2008, 06:01:49 AM »
In my now-unique case I must state that I am not responsible for my infection.  What I am responsible for is choosing to ignore the dictates of organized religion, the laws of the government at that time, and the warnings from my mother and participating in sodomitical relations with other gay men.

I've ignored all those too (all my life).  But none of these necessarily result in HIV infection -- unprotected sex does.  I'm responsible for my infection because I engaged in unprotected sex.   

Quote
My last sexual activity with another human being was September 10, 1982.  I was infected with HIV in 1982 or earlier.

And I thought it's been a long time since I had sex.   ::)

Quote
How do we play the "responsibility" game with all those who died in the 1980s and even later?  I do not wish to forget any of them or to malign their memories with playing the blame game in the 2000s.  I realize the situation is entirely different today, but I just wanted to remind everyone of what happened to an entire generation of "innocent" gay men.   R.I.P. 

Agreed -- there was a time when people didn't know about HIV or AIDS.  Even today, there are people who do not.  So does ignorance mean you are not responsible, while knowledge means you are?  This discussion ends up degenerating into an endless debate, which in my opinion is pointless.  So what if someone is responsible or not?  You still have to deal with the consequences.

Regards,

Henry
"Life in Lubbock, Texas, taught me two things:
     One is that God loves you and you're going to burn in hell.
     The other is that sex is the most awful, filthy thing on earth and you should save it for someone you love."
- Butch Hancock, Musician, The Flatlanders

Offline edfu

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Re: Are we responsible of our HIV infection ?
« Reply #26 on: December 11, 2008, 07:10:00 AM »
But none of these necessarily result in HIV infection -- unprotected sex does.  I'm responsible for my infection because I engaged in unprotected sex.   

The point I was trying to make is simply that there were thousands who did nothing more than engage in gay sex before it was known that protection against a lethal virus was necessary.  There was no such thing as "protected" or "unprotected" sex.  It was just sex, glorious sex, when the worst that could happen would be a nasty--yet easily curable--STD.   I was using myself as an example of such a dinosaur who is still alive and roaming the earth. 

This discussion ends up degenerating into an endless debate, which in my opinion is pointless. 

I'm sorry if it seemed I was trying to debate, which I am not.  I just wished to point out some history about the early years of the pandemic, which are often ignored, and why I could not answer the OP's multiple-choice quiz.  It was also an indirect attempt to show another reason why  it can be impossible to assign "blame" when an artifact of nature, a virus, is the cause.   

Those who are obsessed in assigning blame need to read Randy Shilts's "And the Band Played On:  Politics, People, and the AIDS Epidemic."  (And please don't anyone start shrieking about the Patient Zero controversy, which was a CDC construct and blown up by the media, but who was essential in proving the sexual transmissability of the virus.)   
"No one will ever be free so long as there are pestilences."--Albert Camus, "The Plague"

"Mankind can never be free until the last brick in the last church falls on the head of the last priest."--Voltaire

Offline John2038

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Re: Are we responsible of our HIV infection ?
« Reply #27 on: December 11, 2008, 07:45:24 AM »
I think some in this forum should stop from now accusing others as being the only one responsible of their own HIV infection even if they got it during unprotected sexual intercourse.

So far, it is not the point of view that is sharing the majority of the people who have participate to this poll. In more to be an unproductive, useless and irrespectful attitude.

Offline Cliff

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Re: Are we responsible of our HIV infection ?
« Reply #28 on: December 11, 2008, 07:57:55 AM »
You probably could have made that point without the vague poll.

Offline David_CA

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Re: Are we responsible of our HIV infection ?
« Reply #29 on: December 11, 2008, 08:13:42 AM »
Perhaps instead of worrying about who's responsible for our HIV infection, we should concentrate on dealing with our HIV infection. 

It's like asking an adopting parent who's responsible for their children.  I doubt they'd focus their thoughts on the actual conception, etc of the child from sperm and egg, but more who clothes the kids, feeds 'em, tries to keep them from harm, etc.  You know, being responsible for their children.
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Offline skeebo1969

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Re: Are we responsible of our HIV infection ?
« Reply #30 on: December 11, 2008, 08:22:17 AM »

  Edfu,

   Thanks for your post, it really gives a different perspective not mentioned prior in this thread.  While I am familiar with the history of this pandemic, hell to be honest with you, that is the first time I've  seen it presented in regards to this type question.  Good point.

  
I think some in this forum should stop from now accusing others as being the only one responsible of their own HIV infection even if they got it during unprotected sexual intercourse.

So far, it is not the point of view that is sharing the majority of the people who have participate to this poll. In more to be an unproductive, useless and irrespectful attitude.

  John8675309,

    Where has anyone accused in this thread?  Being told to take responsibility for your part in having unprotected sex is not accusing you of anything.  It is a reality that is clouded by anger right now because you were recently diagnosed, I've seen it many times including within myself.  Some of us are not as strong as others to accept are part in our own infection while others do so and move on.  Can't you see how this has consumed you?  Unless you were raped, in today's world if you got it from unprotected sex it is your fault.

   I think what you are angry about is the betrayal of your own trust that the other person was negative.  Who's fault is that?   Who you trust is your responsibility correct?
I despise the song Love is in the Air, you should too.

Offline woodshere

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Re: Are we responsible of our HIV infection ?
« Reply #31 on: December 11, 2008, 09:26:43 AM »
First, what purpose does asking me or anyone else the generalized wide sweeping question "Are we responsible of our HIV infection ?".  I know how I was infected (unsafe sex) and who was responsible (ME). Knowing and ACCEPTING those facts allow for an easy answer. However due to the use of "we" how do I answer when I think of HIV+ folks living in an African country whose government refused to provide education and prevention resources early on because their leader was in denial about the very existence of HIV.  This is a frivolous exercise.

Secondly, personally speaking on an individual basis, it really doesn't matter who was responsible for my  HIV infection.  The fact is I am and rather than worry about responsibility and blame, I have chosen to accept, deal and move on. I do see some benefit to proper research regarding reasons for HIV infection which might reveal results that help prevent future infections.  And I dare say this type of research has been done and continues to be.
"Let us give pubicity to HV/AIDS and not hide it..." "One of the things destroying people with AIDS is the stigma we attach to it."   Nelson Mandela

Offline GSOgymrat

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Re: Are we responsible of our HIV infection ?
« Reply #32 on: December 11, 2008, 09:49:08 AM »
Let's have some more polls:

Are smokers responsible for their cancer diagnosis?

Are the poor responsible their low standard of living?

Are obese people responsible for their diabetes?

Are blacks responsible for their high incarceration rate?

These questions are inherently hurtful and offensive.  It takes a lot of nerve to address a group of people with AIDS and ask them if they are taking responsibility for becoming infected.

Offline RapidRod

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Re: Are we responsible of our HIV infection ?
« Reply #33 on: December 11, 2008, 10:05:45 AM »
I think some in this forum should stop from now accusing others as being the only one responsible of their own HIV infection even if they got it during unprotected sexual intercourse.

So far, it is not the point of view that is sharing the majority of the people who have participate to this poll. In more to be an unproductive, useless and irrespectful attitude.

Then I suggest you don't take polls or ask questions as such if you don't want the responses of others on a public forum.

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Are we responsible of our HIV infection ?
« Reply #34 on: December 11, 2008, 10:47:56 AM »
You probably could have made that point without the vague poll.
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline woodshere

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Re: Are we responsible of our HIV infection ?
« Reply #35 on: December 11, 2008, 10:50:23 AM »
I think some in this forum should stop from now accusing others as being the only one responsible of their own HIV infection even if they got it during unprotected sexual intercourse.

If not the responsibility of those of us who became infected (except for those infected prior to the discovery of HIV and prevention measures) due to unprotected sex, then whose responsibility is it?  One can argue all they want that it is the responsibility of both parties to discuss HIV prior to sex and take appropriate action, however in the end the responsibility lies at the individuals feet or for that matter any other part of the human body.  I don't care how hot the guy was, how healthy he looked or how honest she was.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2008, 10:52:30 AM by woodshere »
"Let us give pubicity to HV/AIDS and not hide it..." "One of the things destroying people with AIDS is the stigma we attach to it."   Nelson Mandela

Offline John2038

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Re: Are we responsible of our HIV infection ?
« Reply #36 on: December 11, 2008, 12:34:03 PM »
If not the responsibility of those of us who became infected (except for those infected prior to the discovery of HIV and prevention measures) due to unprotected sex, then whose responsibility is it?  One can argue all they want that it is the responsibility of both parties to discuss HIV prior to sex and take appropriate action, however in the end the responsibility lies at the individuals feet or for that matter any other part of the human body.  I don't care how hot the guy was, how healthy he looked or how honest she was.

You are mentioning part of the story.
For the others part, just know that betraying, trust, lie, believe, and so are in the dictionary.
Without trust, believe in someone, there is almost nothing you can do in this world.
Not even eat food. Following your reasoning, you should check yourself if the milk you just bought don't contains melatonin.
The world you are describing is not the world in which we live.
You should argue with more options.

Offline PeteNYNJ

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Re: Are we responsible of our HIV infection ?
« Reply #37 on: December 11, 2008, 12:37:14 PM »
responsible, irresponsible, guilty, not guilty???

labels!

You are human, you fucked up and now you have a virus...deal.

It is so funny to me to try to marginalize members on a website devoted to how to live with HIV.  It is a shitty virus that unfortunately, no matter the cause, we all have to deal with in our lives.

Offline John2038

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Re: Are we responsible of our HIV infection ?
« Reply #38 on: December 11, 2008, 12:43:29 PM »
responsible, irresponsible, guilty, not guilty???

labels!

You are human, you fucked up and now you have a virus...deal.

It is so funny to me to try to marginalize members on a website devoted to how to live with HIV.  It is a shitty virus that unfortunately, no matter the cause, we all have to deal with in our lives.

How about the way you get it.

My point is not to discuss on whether or not it is possible to live with the virus, accept the reality and so.
It is: don't judge someone on why he/she get infected assuming it has necessarily to be his fault.
When it is not, you are hurting twice the same person.
Maybe that's why disclosing seems so difficult for some..

The virus itself is another question.

Offline woodshere

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Re: Are we responsible of our HIV infection ?
« Reply #39 on: December 11, 2008, 12:56:11 PM »
You are mentioning part of the story.
For the others part, just know that betraying, trust, lie, believe, and so are in the dictionary.
Without trust, believe in someone, there is almost nothing you can do in this world.

thanks for letting me know what words are in the dictionary.  I agree that we must have trust and believe in others.  Unfortunately that trust is sometimes broken and we must deal with the consequences of that broken trust.  But I still believe that one bears responsibility in the decision making processs regarding who to trust.

The world you are describing is not the world in which we live.

On this I agree with you, because far too many people look for others to blame for their position in life, rather than accept responsibility and deal with it.

You should argue with more options.

Well first off this is not an argument.  My thinking is that this is a discussion forum, where disagreements will occur.  If we all agreed it certainly would be quiet boring.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2008, 01:17:10 PM by woodshere »
"Let us give pubicity to HV/AIDS and not hide it..." "One of the things destroying people with AIDS is the stigma we attach to it."   Nelson Mandela

Offline Basquo

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Re: Are we responsible of our HIV infection ?
« Reply #40 on: December 11, 2008, 01:10:16 PM »

My point is not to discuss on whether or not it is possible to live with the virus, accept the reality and so.
It is: don't judge someone on why he/she get infected assuming it has necessarily to be his fault.


Once again, you've put your questions out there and then you get upset when you get answers with which you don't agree. In your other threads you spend who-knows-how-much time researching to get information that you apply to your arguments to prove everybody wrong. Now you've started a thread where you can't quote source after source except for the voices here, and it's forced you to reply in a way that comes across as "Well that's what YOU say..."

Above you finally start showing some of your feelings, and it shows that you are hurt, and feel betrayed, and want to scream out that your trust was broken. That's all fine, except that some people here are trying to help you get PAST all that and to a healthier place where you can stop obsessing about the science, stop obesssing about the treatment that just months ago you were saying you might not ever need, and stop blaming everyone including yourself.

I rarely say this to anyone, but yesterday I wished you peace.  Today, I wish you help. Find help, recognize it, and accept it. I don't know what else to do for you at this time.

Best,
Creighton

Offline John2038

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Re: Are we responsible of our HIV infection ?
« Reply #41 on: December 11, 2008, 01:13:42 PM »
woodshere, I agree with your latest point.

In your point of view, this guy shouldn't even be judged right ?
http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=20441.msg310782#msg310782

Same if you eat contaminated food or whatever.

So why do we need justice in this world ?

At the end, we are the only one responsible for our life.
Democracy is meaningless, just anarchy.

How can one answer "Always" or  "Never" is out of my understanding.

Offline John2038

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Re: Are we responsible of our HIV infection ?
« Reply #42 on: December 11, 2008, 01:22:38 PM »
Basquo you are caring, and whether or not you are right, I appreciate.

Honestly, I have accept to live with this virus.
My reaction was turned peacefully against those who continuously like to say:
assume, cause it's your fault.

To mention the post of someone:

Eh? What SHE did? Are you incapable of putting a condom on your own damned penis?

You really are beyond belief.


It's about judging others nothing else.

Regarding science, I'm curious since I'm born, it is maybe an obsession, but it make me really happy in my life. Publishing news in this website never take me more than 30 min.
Just registered to some rss feed. But I can understand the perception you can have from it.

Still, the discussion here should be above my personal case that shouldn't interest anyone here.
It's about judging. If we wasn't judged, most of us will disclose probably more easily. Right ?
Judging others without knowing the facts is a mistake.

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Are we responsible of our HIV infection ?
« Reply #43 on: December 11, 2008, 01:29:22 PM »

It's about judging others nothing else.

In typical fashion you continually deflect the point that has been made about YOU judging someone else.

And as Creighton/Basquo stated somewhat, the concern is that you've not mentally dealt with your infection, and this has now gone on for 14 months going by your very first thread on this web forum.

Speaking of that first thread, I'm curious how your lying, duplicitous Typhoid Mary girlfriend morphed from African to Thai.  Was that just an innocent error or am I misunderstanding something in the story line?
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline woodshere

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Re: Are we responsible of our HIV infection ?
« Reply #44 on: December 11, 2008, 01:32:48 PM »
woodshere, I agree with your latest point.

In your point of view, this guy shouldn't even be judged right ?
http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=20441.msg310782#msg310782

Same if you eat contaminated food or whatever.

So why do we need justice in this world ?

At the end, we are the only one responsible for our life.
Democracy is meaningless, just anarchy.

How can one answer "Always" or  "Never" is out of my understanding.

Of course he should be held accountable for his actions.  However I had the understanding that the thread was about responsibility, not cases involving criminal intent.  And for the record I found the poll to be frivolous and did not choose an answer.

And finally,

Basquo you are caring, and whether or not you are right, I appreciate.

It's about judging others nothing else.
Still, the discussion here should be above my personal case that shouldn't interest anyone here.
It's about judging. If we wasn't judged, most of us will disclose probably more easily. Right ?
Judging others without knowing the facts is a mistake.
I have yet to see anyone being judged in this thread.  If it is there it must be visible only to whoever feels they are being judged.  I think there is far more going on here than meets the eye and am beginning to wish I had not entered the discussion and now unless referred to later will exit.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2008, 01:38:43 PM by woodshere »
"Let us give pubicity to HV/AIDS and not hide it..." "One of the things destroying people with AIDS is the stigma we attach to it."   Nelson Mandela

Offline John2038

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Re: Are we responsible of our HIV infection ?
« Reply #45 on: December 11, 2008, 01:41:03 PM »
woodshere

you are welcome to leave the discussion if you feel it is the best you can do or just what you want to do.

Miss Philicia

I have never been interested, most of time, in reading your point of view that I am convinced you are considering as outstanding.
They are not, IMHO mainly because again and again you are talking without knowing the fact.
The morphism you are talking about is just another crazy things.
You are investing to much of your time assuming what you just don't know.

Me too, I also almost never talk like that. And if I do, it's always against the same people. And you are part of them. The vast majority just stay silent, reading only what they care about, and staying out of your mini world that make you proud of you, as well as the little tribe you are trying each time to impress.
But me, Philly, I don't care. You see ? Blame no blame, ban no ban, I going where the sun keep shining, and I am happy like that. You are just not impacting my life, maybe distracting me, but I am not even sure.

Offline PeteNYNJ

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Re: Are we responsible of our HIV infection ?
« Reply #46 on: December 11, 2008, 01:59:02 PM »
Oh, this should end well  ::)

Offline woodshere

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Re: Are we responsible of our HIV infection ?
« Reply #47 on: December 11, 2008, 02:13:53 PM »
Oh, this should end well  ::)

Perhaps the only thing in this thread to which we all can agree.... :)
"Let us give pubicity to HV/AIDS and not hide it..." "One of the things destroying people with AIDS is the stigma we attach to it."   Nelson Mandela

Offline Cliff

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Re: Are we responsible of our HIV infection ?
« Reply #48 on: December 11, 2008, 02:29:55 PM »
Actually John, Philly does have a point.  I thought you were being picked on.  But I did read that you said you were infected by a girl in Africa.  Now you're getting blood samples from the girl that infected you in Thailand. 

You have a right to lie about the situation, but I don't know why you need to drag everyone into a discussion about whether your sexual health/infection was solely your responsibility, if you also want to conceal the truth.

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Are we responsible of our HIV infection ?
« Reply #49 on: December 11, 2008, 02:30:11 PM »
*
« Last Edit: December 11, 2008, 02:32:04 PM by Miss Philicia »
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Offline skeebo1969

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Re: Are we responsible of our HIV infection ?
« Reply #50 on: December 11, 2008, 02:33:25 PM »


  John,

   I hope you find what ever it is you are looking for, good luck man.
I despise the song Love is in the Air, you should too.

Offline John2038

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Re: Are we responsible of our HIV infection ?
« Reply #51 on: December 11, 2008, 02:36:01 PM »
Cliff

I have been infected by a Thai girl, never I have says by an African girl.

skeebo1969

This discussion was not having the aim to be personal, but general.
However, I appreciate your wishes, and wishes you the same.

Offline David_CA

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Re: Are we responsible of our HIV infection ?
« Reply #52 on: December 11, 2008, 02:44:46 PM »
You are mentioning part of the story.
For the others part, just know that betraying, trust, lie, believe, and so are in the dictionary.
Without trust, believe in someone, there is almost nothing you can do in this world.
Not even eat food. Following your reasoning, you should check yourself if the milk you just bought don't contains melatonin.
The world you are describing is not the world in which we live.
You should argue with more options.


Actually, melatonin (a hormone) in milk isn't always a bad thing.  I believe you're referring to melamine, which is an organic compound and has been found in baby formula recently.  And yes, parents in the US are warned not to use any milk / baby formula products from China as a precaution.  In the same way, we've been warned to practice safe(r) sex for decades to avoid HIV infection.  You didn't choose a good analogy.

« Last Edit: December 11, 2008, 02:48:08 PM by David_NC »
Black Friday 03-03-2006
03-23-06 CD4 359 @27.4% VL 75,938
06-01-06 CD4 462 @24.3% VL > 100,000
08-15-06 CD4 388 @22.8% VL >  "
10-21-06 CD4 285 @21.9% VL >  "
  Atripla started 12-01-2006
01-08-07 CD4 429 @26.8% VL 1872!
05-08-07 CD4 478 @28.1% VL 740
08-03-07 CD4 509 @31.8% VL 370
11-06-07 CD4 570 @30.0% VL 140
02-21-08 CD4 648 @32.4% VL 600
05-19-08 CD4 695 @33.1% VL < 48 undetectable!
08-21-08 CD4 725 @34.5%
11-11-08 CD4 672 @39.5%
02-11-09 CD4 773 @36.8%
05-11-09 CD4 615 @36.2%
08-19-09 CD4 770 @38.5%
11-19-09 CD4 944 @33.7%
02-17-10 CD4 678 @39.9%  
06-03-10 CD4 768 @34.9%
09-21-10 CD4 685 @40.3%
01-10-11 CD4 908 @36.3%
05-23-11 CD4 846 @36.8% VL 80
02-13-12 CD4 911 @41.4% VL<20
You must be the change you want to see in the world.  Mahatma Gandhi

Offline Cliff

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Re: Are we responsible of our HIV infection ?
« Reply #53 on: December 11, 2008, 02:47:33 PM »
http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=16030.msg202577#msg202577

John in the above thread, you speak of being infected by a girl in Africa and finding out your status when you moved back to Europe.  Again, I don't really care what the truth is....it's your business.  But I just don't understand why you care so much what other people say/think and need to start threads like this if you have no interest in being open and honest. 

Offline skeebo1969

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Re: Are we responsible of our HIV infection ?
« Reply #54 on: December 11, 2008, 02:56:13 PM »


  John,

    Have you ever read any of your old threads?  Especially the one mentioned by Cliff?  You have had this mindset for well over a year now.  I'm done trying to tell you how to move past this.  I just want to sincerely ask you, can you see how this is rather unhealthy mentally for you?
I despise the song Love is in the Air, you should too.

Offline John2038

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Re: Are we responsible of our HIV infection ?
« Reply #55 on: December 11, 2008, 03:04:15 PM »
David_NC

You are right. Thanks

Cliff

I have been infected by a Thai girl in Africa, as I met her here.
She came back her country last year

skeebo1969

It is obvious that some people in this forum think that you are always the only one responsible of your HIV infection, as is suggesting this small poll result.
It is fine like that, as everybody is free to think what he/she want.
But not to use their beliefs to judge others. without knowing the facts.
I was willing to see why they think like that, so this discussion.
I am not doing any personal psycho here, or any single question is psycho.

EDIT

skeebo1969

I have read the post mentioned by Cliff, and I see what you mean.
But please, it was my first post, I just got the confirmation this day that I was infected, and yes this post contains a lot of emotions among others things.
Please, forget this post. I made a long way since, and I feel very fine since few months already.
Im saying that just based on the life I am having. I have a happy life, I feel very good, can do again my life with a new partner and so. I don't need HAART now, I just decided to start it this month.
I will get my prescription next week, so my initial question about genotype in Thailand.
After that, I believe my life will be 99.9% normal. It is already now, just willing to maintain healthy my IS.

But as I believe you, Cliff and some others are honest, I would like to thank you for all the care you are giving to others. I understand your point but please, believe me when I say I am far from my position the first day. I even hardly  believe that the cure will be find before 10 years. I am currently trying to build a family, so happy happy as they say in Thailand..  ;)
« Last Edit: December 11, 2008, 03:29:38 PM by John2038 »

Offline MarcoPoz

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Re: Are we responsible of our HIV infection ?
« Reply #56 on: December 11, 2008, 03:12:12 PM »
Hmmm...interesting question and the gist of which I got when I used to give talks at schools.  Stundents wanted to know about things like blame, fault and guilt.  In all honesty, these things never really were issues for me.  Don't get me wrong, if I could change things I would.

For me, I was young and perhaps a bit blinded by love, lust and excitement.  Add a bit of being unaware.  Since becoming positive, sex for me has become pathologized and always includes the difficult issue of dealing with a disease for which there is no cure.

I don't blame my partner, or myself.

I think I've been more focused on how my character is molded by HIV and how I learn to live with HIV.  What it means for my relationships, family etc.  What it means for my mental and emotional health.

I think if I focused on ideas like guilt, blame and fault, it would be difficult for me to do the positive and proactive things I think I need to be part of.

Offline anniebc

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Re: Are we responsible of our HIV infection ?
« Reply #57 on: December 11, 2008, 04:54:12 PM »
Just in case it's missed, and so it's clear that I'm still a member of these forums and I'm entitled to voice my opinion as a Member I have added this to my post #18.

"I would like John, Leatherman and others to know that I posted this as a Member and not as a Moderator of these forums"

Jan
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Never knock on deaths door..ring the bell and run..he really hates that.

Offline John2038

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Re: Are we responsible of our HIV infection ?
« Reply #58 on: December 11, 2008, 05:20:41 PM »
Just in case it's missed, and so it's clear that I'm still a member of these forums and I'm entitled to voice my opinion as a Member I have added this to my post #18.

"I would like John, Leatherman and others to know that I posted this as a Member and not as a Moderator of these forums"

Jan

As far as I know, Leatherman haven't post in this thread.
So I guess he have contacted you privately, and probably you may want to respect this privacy. Respecting me seems already optional, I am not asking that from you. If you can raise your voice as a member, so I can: try to make this place a better place. If you have something against me, you can still contact me by pm, what you never did. So far, you are still posting under your "Global Moderator" nickname, and as such, you may want to use another nick, where this function doesn't appears.

EDIT
As a member and moderator, you should know that if a discussion is not interesting you, you just have to ignore it, as you can ignore a member when you are reading as a member.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2008, 05:26:00 PM by John2038 »

Offline PeteNYNJ

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Re: Are we responsible of our HIV infection ?
« Reply #59 on: December 11, 2008, 05:30:02 PM »
Quote
I think I've been more focused on how my character is molded by HIV and how I learn to live with HIV.  What it means for my relationships, family etc.  What it means for my mental and emotional health.

I think if I focused on ideas like guilt, blame and fault, it would be difficult for me to do the positive and proactive things I think I need to be part of.
Quote



John - reread the above quote Marco posted about 10 more times.  He hits it on the head. 
« Last Edit: December 11, 2008, 05:32:08 PM by PeteNYNJ »

Offline mecch

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Re: Are we responsible of our HIV infection ?
« Reply #60 on: December 11, 2008, 07:32:23 PM »
Ok, now besides being an intellectual trainwreck of a thread, it's replete with pitiable syntax and grammar.  This must be an homage to the departing President Bush.

Maybe I should take that back, if some of you are non-native speakers of English, my apologies.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2008, 07:37:40 PM by mecch »
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Offline madbrain

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Re: Are we responsible of our HIV infection ?
« Reply #61 on: December 11, 2008, 10:19:17 PM »
I voted "other". Please rephrase the poll question in a way that makes more sense.

The question implies that everybody was infected through unprotected sex, but several members have pointed out that wasn't true.

Another member rightfully pointed out that knowledge about the existence of HIV and it being sexually transmitted, and many contracted HIV before this was known, so they can't be considered responsible for getting it.

Another member mentioned that protection measured failed - a condom broke. Now whose fault do you want that to be ? The condom users for misusing them ? Or the manufacturer ? And why does the answer matter ?

Others may have gotten it at birth from their mothers. Are they responsible ?

Then there are those who have gotten it through IV drugs. They aren't included in your question, either. Neither are those who were treated at hospitals reusing syringes and got a special gift.

I will make one more point - some people have gotten HIV through non-consensual unprotected sex, ie. rape. I didn't see anyone chime in about that. But certainly rape victims couldn't be considered to be responsible for their infection either.

For everyone else, the subset of us who indeed contracted the virus through consensual, unprotected sex, with knowledge of the risks entailed, I think yes, we always have some share of responsibility.

I think very few of us actively went out of our way to get HIV and practiced unprotected sex in order to contract it (ie. bug chasers), and other than for that case, cannot be considered entirely responsible for their infection.

To speak only about my personal experience, I think that I underestimated the risks of unprotected oral sex transmission of HIV, and the added risk factor from my bad gums, and I believe that's what led to my infection, though I can't be certain. I could probably have prevented it by not having unprotected oral sex, or by always using condoms for oral sex. I didn't do that, and so I'm responsible for the consequence now.

I don't believe however that I'm the only one to bear that responsibility. Whoever transmitted the virus to me is also partially responsible too, for accepting to engage in unsafe sex with an allegedly uninfected person, if they knew about their own infection. And if they didn't know, then I think whoever transmitted it to them (through sex, syringe, or other) would also be partially responsible. Ultimately it most likely traces back to somebody who knew about it and still wasn't safe.

In the end, I think the question is quite pointless. What are we going to do if we find the specific answer for each infection ? What's the punishment going to be ? Should we jail all the responsible parties - which would include ourselves ? Should we be considered any less worthy of receiving treatment because we could have prevented our own infection ? Really, what was the point of your question, John ?

The past cannot be changed - the virus cannot be removed from the body yet. The only beneficial things we can do are to try to advance science to change that fact, and raise awareness about safe sex, so that the same mistakes are not repeated, and infection rates go down.

Offline Angel-Ronnie

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Re: Are we responsible of our HIV infection ?
« Reply #62 on: December 12, 2008, 10:07:52 AM »
well, slap me silly if I could, here are some of you I feel i'll give a hug a kiss and say you are awesome, why I say this a few months ago I was walking in a shopping center here in Johannesburg and the guy I think infected me he was also there and here for more than two years I thought i am going to give him a piece of me , well so I thought it never happened though as I looked at him I wanted to kiss him right there and then, because I realized how can I blame him, how can I blame myself, I couldn't and it showed me I have forgiven myself and him and stopped asking questions I am at ease relaxed and spiritually stronger than what I was in 2006, it happened we need to build a bridge and get over it, hiv is not gonna go away and we need to face the reality of our lives and that is why we are fabulous positively inhanced Angels we have come a long way to where we are so stop asking and blaming look within to forgive.

you are all gorgeous MWAH
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An' ye harm none, do what ye will.

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follow this with mind and heart,
Merry ye meet, and merry ye part.

Offline Andy Velez

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Re: Are we responsible of our HIV infection ?
« Reply #63 on: December 12, 2008, 01:33:21 PM »
Hey Fallen,

Completely agree that an attitude of "blame" is not helpful in getting on with life. I appreciated hearing about your experience in the mall.   

Getting on with life seems to me to be what ought to be the real focus pretty much always. We each may have our regrets, resentments and leftover feelings about how we got to where we are today. Those feelings have to be respected. And then there is a time to really let go. Which I know isn't always easy, but it can be done. In my experience it's worth effort.

And finally,  along the way I want to put in some words for kindness and tolerance of those whose mode of expression is annoying or different from your own.

Even when I don't always agree with what I am reading, I know there are angels on this site.

Hope you're all having a good day today.

Cheers.
Andy Velez

Offline YaKaMein

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Re: Are we responsible of our HIV infection ?
« Reply #64 on: December 12, 2008, 03:04:54 PM »
As a rape survivor and as a result, now a survivor with HIV, it was puzzling to me how to respond to the poll. Madbrain raised some good points. Besides the poor construction of the question, it also struck me as not being a very constructive question either [not that we can't have useful discourse in face of such flaws]. Like others, I focus on more productive, future concerns than looking back to find blame, fault perspectives. I'm not implying that our histories are useless; but, we serve ourselves better to find what is useful and use that to create positive outcomes in our futures as we deal with all the surprises in our present, daily lives. IMHO, there are so many of us in this forum who face constant struggles. I'd rather us discuss responsibility in regards to sharing great strengths and insights to help and support each other. -YaKa
« Last Edit: December 12, 2008, 03:06:26 PM by YaKaMein »
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Offline Queen Tokelove

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Re: Are we responsible of our HIV infection ?
« Reply #65 on: December 12, 2008, 03:15:32 PM »
Well, I'll skip the bs between all these posts and make an attempt at trying to answer the question asked. Though after reading so many responses, I am almost confused to what the question was in the first place, uh.....Are we responsible for our infection......

For one, I wouldn't even make an attempt to try to assume anyone is responsible for their infections. There is too many scenarios to even make an attempt and to me that would be making a judgement of others. I will say I don't think any of us here wanted to get this virus.

Now speaking for myself, I got it from an ex who knew he was infected. A man I had been with for five years so yeah, condoms got ditched awhile back. The reason being I had put my trust in this person considering we had been together for so long. Was I wrong for trusting him, no, I don't think so. I was hurt and angry at him for some time but I got over it. Yeah, I could've put him in jail but I chose not to.


And I guess, I would be considered one of those who hides their status because if no one asks me, I don't tell....But then again do most of us run around telling our status? I am not saying this approach is right but it is what I chose to do for certain reasons. That is the demon I live with. When I am intimate with someone, a condom is always used. I have in the past brought up HIV to previous partners and their ignorance was amazing. I did try to share my knowledge but it pretty much got ignored or the topic changed.

Now don't get me wrong, it's not like I have never told anyone my status, I have. But 9 out of 10 times it became a disaster. And I have family cheerleaders who have took it upon themselves to tell my status for me. This is ongoing, so does that make them right?


PS.... I chose not to answer the poll.
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Offline John2038

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Re: Are we responsible of our HIV infection ?
« Reply #66 on: December 12, 2008, 03:33:17 PM »
I fully agree that the question is confusing.

I should have ask:

Vous sentez-vous responsable de votre infection ?

Instead of:

Sommes-nous responsable [individuellement] de notre infection ?

The latter have a meaning in french (more polite form), but I realize that this kind of formulation is confusing when it is literally translated to English.

So the question should have been something like:

Do you feel responsible of your HIV infection ?

We could have call it a MoliŤre side effect. My apologizes for that.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2008, 09:54:23 AM by John2038 »

Offline Tim Horn

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Re: Are we responsible of our HIV infection ?
« Reply #67 on: December 12, 2008, 03:58:22 PM »
As a member and moderator, you should know that if a discussion is not interesting you, you just have to ignore it, as you can ignore a member when you are reading as a member.

John:

I suggest refraining from instructing Jan on what she can and cannot do as a moderator of this site. Fact is, she is both a member and a moderator and is certainly entited to her opinions -- notably when she is speaking as an HIV-positive member of these boards [and I'm thankful that she clarified her statement as such] -- although, personally, I could have done without the salty language. John, whenever you see an official warning or time out, that's Jan, Ann, Andy, Peter or me acting as a moderator... when it's anything other than that, you're hearing from a member.... capisce?

While we're at it, I should point out that it is you keeping the discussion in this thread going and continually engaging those whom you neither respect or care to hear from. You've started, and continued, and provocative thread here -- one, that I read, as you attempting to justify assigning blame for your infection -- and people are responding in kind. All I'll say is this... if you can't stand the heat, I suggest getting out of the kitchen.

Tim Horn

« Last Edit: December 12, 2008, 04:10:43 PM by Tim Horn »

 


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