Quantcast

Subscribe to:
POZ magazine
E-newsletters
Join POZ: Facebook MySpace Twitter Pinterest
Tumblr Google+ Flickr MySpace
POZ Personals
Sign In / Join
Username:
Password:
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
July 25, 2014, 09:45:31 PM

Login with username, password and session length


Members
Stats
  • Total Posts: 631900
  • Total Topics: 47840
  • Online Today: 293
  • Online Ever: 585
  • (January 07, 2014, 02:31:47 PM)
Users Online
Users: 5
Guests: 151
Total: 156

Welcome


Welcome to the POZ/AIDSmeds Community Forums, a round-the-clock discussion area for people with HIV/AIDS, their friends/family/caregivers, and others concerned about HIV/AIDS.  Click on the links below to browse our various forums; scroll down for a glance at the most recent posts; or join in the conversation yourself by registering on the left side of this page.

Privacy Warning:  Please realize that these forums are open to all, and are fully searchable via Google and other search engines. If you are HIV positive and disclose this in our forums, then it is almost the same thing as telling the whole world (or at least the World Wide Web). If this concerns you, then do not use a username or avatar that are self-identifying in any way. We do not allow the deletion of anything you post in these forums, so think before you post.

  • The information shared in these forums, by moderators and members, is designed to complement, not replace, the relationship between an individual and his/her own physician.

  • All members of these forums are, by default, not considered to be licensed medical providers. If otherwise, users must clearly define themselves as such.

  • Forums members must behave at all times with respect and honesty. Posting guidelines, including time-out and banning policies, have been established by the moderators of these forums. Click here for “Am I Infected?” posting guidelines. Click here for posting guidelines pertaining to all other POZ/AIDSmeds community forums.

  • We ask all forums members to provide references for health/medical/scientific information they provide, when it is not a personal experience being discussed. Please provide hyperlinks with full URLs or full citations of published works not available via the Internet. Additionally, all forums members must post information which are true and correct to their knowledge.

  • Product advertisement—including links; banners; editorial content; and clinical trial, study or survey participation—is strictly prohibited by forums members unless permission has been secured from POZ.

To change forums navigation language settings, click here (members only), Register now

Para cambiar sus preferencias de los foros en español, haz clic aquí (sólo miembros), Regístrate ahora

Finished Reading This? You can collapse this or any other box on this page by clicking the symbol in each box.

Author Topic: Sex without condoms between poz men?!  (Read 5403 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline bismarck06

  • Member
  • Posts: 6
Sex without condoms between poz men?!
« on: November 23, 2008, 05:20:55 PM »
What is your opinion about monogamous couples where both men are poz who choose not to use condoms in their long-term relationship?

What is your opinion about single poz men having sex with other single poz men without condoms?

In my experience with poz men who have sex with other poz men, a few men use condoms, but the majority do not use condoms at all.

I'm new here, so I hope this topic has not been posted elsewhere.   ;D

Offline fearless

  • Member
  • Posts: 2,191
Re: Sex without condoms between poz men?!
« Reply #1 on: November 23, 2008, 05:49:33 PM »
My personal opinion on both questions is that it is up to the individuals concerned.

I never use a condom with my boyfriend - both poz - me 5 years and on meds and him 20 years and not on meds. If he decides to whore me out, whether or not a condom is used is generally left up to the other party to decide.
Be forgiving, be grateful, be optimistic

Offline hotpuppy

  • Member
  • Posts: 555
Re: Sex without condoms between poz men?!
« Reply #2 on: November 23, 2008, 09:51:14 PM »
Well, there are pros and cons to this.

There is more than HIV to be worried about.  You can also get syphillis, chlamydia (sp), gonorrhea, hepatitis B/A (which you can get a shot to immunize against), and herpes.

I know very few poz guys who use condoms.  I think I can count them on one hand. 

I personally prefer bare, but will only play safe (if at all) with a neg guy, and it's up for discussion with a poz guy.  I probably would not date someone who was poz and insisted on using condoms.  That is my choice, you may make yours, but please respect mine.

Presuming this thread stays open, it will probably lead to some choice posts as this is a contentious topic.

Opinions aside, it seems like the ASOs want to wave coinfection and superinfection around to "scare" people into safe sex between poz partners.  I'm not saying those aren't valid concerns, but if they existed I think they would be widespread based on my personal obvservations and comparing notes with friends who are poz. 
Don't obsess over the wrong things.  Life isn't about your numbers, it isn't about this forum, it isn't about someone's opinion.  It's about getting out there and enjoying it.   I am a person with HIV - not the other way around.

Offline denb45

  • Member
  • Posts: 5,051
  • "1987 Classic Old School POZ+"
Re: Sex without condoms between poz men?!
« Reply #3 on: November 23, 2008, 10:47:24 PM »
I don't worry about condoms with another POZ+ sex partner, however I do worry about STD's, I already take enough Medications for HIV & AIDS, and I don't wish to take anymore Meds for STD's  ???
« Last Edit: November 23, 2008, 10:49:41 PM by denb45 »
"it's so nice to be insane, cause no-one ask you to explain" Helen Reddy cc 1974

Offline red_Dragon888

  • Member
  • Posts: 2,811
  • Love and Be Love in Return
Re: Sex without condoms between poz men?!
« Reply #4 on: November 25, 2008, 05:39:16 PM »
hard to answer.  what if it makes things worst?   it does make me worry.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=I3ba3lnFHik

“Neither look forward where there is doubt nor backward where there is regret. Look inward and ask not if there is anything o

Offline lusopt

  • Member
  • Posts: 61
Re: Sex without condoms between poz men?!
« Reply #5 on: November 25, 2008, 07:29:25 PM »
No, you should alwas use protection even if the other partner is poz too, you are going to mix up the virus, that may have different resistances, it may be harder to control.
15/11/06: HIV-
28/10/08: HIV +
- No Meds -
18/11/08: CD4 -650 (.......)  / -17.500 VL
01/03/09: CD4- 540 (19,6%) / - 2090 VL
17/07/09: CD4 -603 (20,1%) / - 5040 VL
27/10/09: CD4 -627 (21,5%) / - 10.896 VL
25/03/10: CD4 -609 (23,9%) / -11.602 VL
12/09/10: CD4 -555 (........) / - 55.500 VL
21/04/11: CD4 -466 (17%)   / - 50.339 VL
01/10/11: CD4 -375 (19%)   / - 73.058 VL

Started, Epzicom and Sustiva
01/02/12: CD4 -298 (23%)   / - undetectable

Offline denb45

  • Member
  • Posts: 5,051
  • "1987 Classic Old School POZ+"
Re: Sex without condoms between poz men?!
« Reply #6 on: November 25, 2008, 08:19:53 PM »
No, you should alwas use protection even if the other partner is poz too, you are going to mix up the virus, that may have different resistances, it may be harder to control.


.......and where is the proof to any of this?  >:(  sorry, I beg to differ on this issue  ??? bottom-line here is this: I cannot get HIV-1 again, I already have it, and I REALLY DO NOT buy the whole super-infection-theory ,and as for Drug Resistance, I've had that for the last 15 yrs.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2008, 08:26:28 PM by denb45 »
"it's so nice to be insane, cause no-one ask you to explain" Helen Reddy cc 1974

Offline lusopt

  • Member
  • Posts: 61
Re: Sex without condoms between poz men?!
« Reply #7 on: November 28, 2008, 10:41:50 AM »
I just read about this, google for it if you think it deserves a try.

You probably know that there are two types of hiv (HIV-1 and HIV-2) within the HIV-1 you have 10 subtypes, i really think you should think better on this issue. If you were infected by someone who take meds for a long time, and already have resistances, its logic to think that the oter person will get the same virus, with the same strengh, but in a different body.

think better on this.
15/11/06: HIV-
28/10/08: HIV +
- No Meds -
18/11/08: CD4 -650 (.......)  / -17.500 VL
01/03/09: CD4- 540 (19,6%) / - 2090 VL
17/07/09: CD4 -603 (20,1%) / - 5040 VL
27/10/09: CD4 -627 (21,5%) / - 10.896 VL
25/03/10: CD4 -609 (23,9%) / -11.602 VL
12/09/10: CD4 -555 (........) / - 55.500 VL
21/04/11: CD4 -466 (17%)   / - 50.339 VL
01/10/11: CD4 -375 (19%)   / - 73.058 VL

Started, Epzicom and Sustiva
01/02/12: CD4 -298 (23%)   / - undetectable

Offline joemutt

  • Member
  • Posts: 1,039
Re: Sex without condoms between poz men?!
« Reply #8 on: November 28, 2008, 10:52:43 AM »
me no VL, unknown about resistance, CD4 900.
he VL 260K, CD 550
condoms or not?



Offline denb45

  • Member
  • Posts: 5,051
  • "1987 Classic Old School POZ+"
Re: Sex without condoms between poz men?!
« Reply #9 on: November 28, 2008, 11:06:02 AM »
I just read about this, google for it if you think it deserves a try.

You probably know that there are two types of hiv (HIV-1 and HIV-2) within the HIV-1 you have 10 subtypes, i really think you should think better on this issue. If you were infected by someone who take meds for a long time, and already have resistances, its logic to think that the oter person will get the same virus, with the same strengh, but in a different body.

think better on this.


I already have AIDS, so, I have nothing else to think about, having sex with another pozie, isn't anything I'm really concerned about, how dare you try and convince me other wise  ??? I DO NOT share your opinion on this subject, go convince someone else.........
« Last Edit: November 28, 2008, 11:07:37 AM by denb45 »
"it's so nice to be insane, cause no-one ask you to explain" Helen Reddy cc 1974

Offline lusopt

  • Member
  • Posts: 61
Re: Sex without condoms between poz men?!
« Reply #10 on: November 28, 2008, 11:26:46 AM »
I already have AIDS, so, I have nothing else to think about, having sex with another pozie, isn't anything I'm really concerned about, how dare you try and convince me other wise  ??? I DO NOT share your opinion on this subject, go convince someone else.........

Whats your problem?? Im not trying to convince anyone of anything specially you, someone asked for opinions, and i gave it. If you dont share my opinion, whatever i dont share yours, but i do respect it, try to do the same, it will suit you better.

Joemutt...
Its better for you to do your reading and take your own conclusions on this issue, there are many opinions on this, maybe you should ask it as well to your doctor.
15/11/06: HIV-
28/10/08: HIV +
- No Meds -
18/11/08: CD4 -650 (.......)  / -17.500 VL
01/03/09: CD4- 540 (19,6%) / - 2090 VL
17/07/09: CD4 -603 (20,1%) / - 5040 VL
27/10/09: CD4 -627 (21,5%) / - 10.896 VL
25/03/10: CD4 -609 (23,9%) / -11.602 VL
12/09/10: CD4 -555 (........) / - 55.500 VL
21/04/11: CD4 -466 (17%)   / - 50.339 VL
01/10/11: CD4 -375 (19%)   / - 73.058 VL

Started, Epzicom and Sustiva
01/02/12: CD4 -298 (23%)   / - undetectable

Offline denb45

  • Member
  • Posts: 5,051
  • "1987 Classic Old School POZ+"
Re: Sex without condoms between poz men?!
« Reply #11 on: November 28, 2008, 11:48:40 AM »
Whats your problem?? Im not trying to convince anyone of anything specially you, someone asked for opinions, and i gave it. If you dont share my opinion, whatever i dont share yours, but i do respect it, try to do the same, it will suit you better.

Joemutt...
Its better for you to do your reading and take your own conclusions on this issue, there are many opinions on this, maybe you should ask it as well to your doctor.

What my problem THIS is my problem:  said by Lusopt  if this was not directed towards me, then disregard...........



You probably know that there are two types of hiv (HIV-1 and HIV-2) within the HIV-1 you have 10 subtypes, i really think you should think better on this issue. If you were infected by someone who take meds for a long time, and already have resistances, its logic to think that the oter person will get the same virus, with the same strengh, but in a different body.

think better on this.


I have to go back at least 25 to 30 years to find that out ( who infected me) also there were NO HIV Meds back then............I don't buy the whole resistance thing...........lots of other factors can cause
 Drug resistance, besides just having unprotected sex with another pozie........
« Last Edit: November 28, 2008, 12:01:06 PM by denb45 »
"it's so nice to be insane, cause no-one ask you to explain" Helen Reddy cc 1974

Offline lusopt

  • Member
  • Posts: 61
Re: Sex without condoms between poz men?!
« Reply #12 on: November 28, 2008, 12:08:36 PM »
Man, this is net you probably dont understand my words or you dont want to, things like this happen in this kind of comunication.
First of all, i dont want people to try and find out who infected, it may be a hard search, even if it has to get back 1/2 years, in your time meds didnt exist, well they do now as well as resistances. you asked proof and i just tryed some explanation, to what i´ve said.

You have no doubts, well good for you, like i said, im not going to convince you or anyone otherwise.


take care
15/11/06: HIV-
28/10/08: HIV +
- No Meds -
18/11/08: CD4 -650 (.......)  / -17.500 VL
01/03/09: CD4- 540 (19,6%) / - 2090 VL
17/07/09: CD4 -603 (20,1%) / - 5040 VL
27/10/09: CD4 -627 (21,5%) / - 10.896 VL
25/03/10: CD4 -609 (23,9%) / -11.602 VL
12/09/10: CD4 -555 (........) / - 55.500 VL
21/04/11: CD4 -466 (17%)   / - 50.339 VL
01/10/11: CD4 -375 (19%)   / - 73.058 VL

Started, Epzicom and Sustiva
01/02/12: CD4 -298 (23%)   / - undetectable

Offline denb45

  • Member
  • Posts: 5,051
  • "1987 Classic Old School POZ+"
Re: Sex without condoms between poz men?!
« Reply #13 on: November 28, 2008, 12:52:08 PM »
Man, this is net you probably dont understand my words or you dont want to, things like this happen in this kind of comunication.
First of all, i dont want people to try and find out who infected, it may be a hard search, even if it has to get back 1/2 years, in your time meds didnt exist, well they do now as well as resistances. you asked proof and i just tryed some explanation, to what i´ve said.

You have no doubts, well good for you, like i said, im not going to convince you or anyone otherwise.


take care

Maybe you didn't understand my words, so, here they are AGAIN: 

said by denb45  lots of other factors can cause
 Drug resistance, besides just having unprotected sex with another pozie........


When I 1st got infected with HIV, (I don't know how old you are) you may have been 5 or 10 years old or not even born yet...........
« Last Edit: November 28, 2008, 12:57:58 PM by denb45 »
"it's so nice to be insane, cause no-one ask you to explain" Helen Reddy cc 1974

Offline lusopt

  • Member
  • Posts: 61
Re: Sex without condoms between poz men?!
« Reply #14 on: November 28, 2008, 01:13:28 PM »
The main thing is not the resistances but the other sub types of HIV-1.


15/11/06: HIV-
28/10/08: HIV +
- No Meds -
18/11/08: CD4 -650 (.......)  / -17.500 VL
01/03/09: CD4- 540 (19,6%) / - 2090 VL
17/07/09: CD4 -603 (20,1%) / - 5040 VL
27/10/09: CD4 -627 (21,5%) / - 10.896 VL
25/03/10: CD4 -609 (23,9%) / -11.602 VL
12/09/10: CD4 -555 (........) / - 55.500 VL
21/04/11: CD4 -466 (17%)   / - 50.339 VL
01/10/11: CD4 -375 (19%)   / - 73.058 VL

Started, Epzicom and Sustiva
01/02/12: CD4 -298 (23%)   / - undetectable

Offline newt

  • Member
  • Posts: 3,877
  • the one and original newt
Re: Sex without condoms between poz men?!
« Reply #15 on: November 28, 2008, 06:43:46 PM »
Erm, in developed countries the main thing as acquiring transmitted resistance. there's so little non-HIV 1 non-subtype B around

The risk here, which is always small, depends on how different the two persons' viral populations are. The more similar, the less the risk. And on viral load. Higher = larger risk.

if two people have the same virus, or negligible viral load (eg if on treatment and undetectable) the risk is 0. if the infections are different, eg one has a mutant non-subtype B strain as the majority viral popululation, then the infections are different, and the risk increases (slightly perhaps, but increases).

in short, the greater the difference and higher the viral load the larger the relative risk of acquiring a second infection.

It strikes me that the information on similarity of two hiv infections and viral load suppression (eg adherence record) may be well known between two steady partners but not in a bath house etc. A casual shag with high viral load and a resistant type of HIV does possibly pose a risk to another HIV person. It can be quite hard to elicit this info on a hot date in my experience without needing one of those blue pills you buy of the internet and a large spliff to restore the mood.

This said "I already got HIV" is a powerful  and compelling argument, even for me very occasionally. But mainly, 99/100 times (if there were 100 times I'd be happy), not. With my reg 2 (also HIV-positive) men, though, condoms, erm what are those? << I think this 2 is about to become 0 cos they're on a date tonight at a proper restaurant.  :D

obviously, other posters' remarks on casual sex and other shit you can get are very sensible.

Hope this helps

- matt
« Last Edit: November 28, 2008, 06:45:40 PM by newt »
"The object is to be a well patient, not a good patient"

Offline peregrine

  • Member
  • Posts: 21
  • I live in the fire & I extinguish it!
Re: Sex without condoms between poz men?!
« Reply #16 on: November 28, 2008, 11:52:11 PM »
I would think that if there was any risk of superinfection, I would rather use a condom. 
I look at it this way.  If I would have been using condoms, this would have never happened to me in the first place.  So, now, I use condoms. 
Fool me once, shame on you, Fool me twice...

Offline Texan38

  • Member
  • Posts: 686
Re: Sex without condoms between poz men?!
« Reply #17 on: November 29, 2008, 01:01:04 AM »
OK, OK....the thread asks about sex without condoms between poz men. Which also continues to state that it's between two men in a long term, monogamous relationship. Now, from what I was informed years ago...two men who continue to have unprotected sex and are both positive, will continue to reinfect each other therefore making it more difficult to continue treating both persons for HIV since the HIV antibody will become more resistant. That's what I was told, years ago. Now, in reality, if two people are going to be in a monogamous, long term relationship, then condoms are not going to be used. Period. The relationship is between two adults who are in a monogamous, long term relationship so there is an unsaid, loving, understanding that both will always be together and if that's ok between the two adults....then it's ok. Done. Period. Over and out.  ;)
In Hollywood an equitable divorce settlement means each party getting fifty per cent of publicity.
~ Lauren Bacall

Offline hotpuppy

  • Member
  • Posts: 555
Re: Sex without condoms between poz men?!
« Reply #18 on: November 29, 2008, 01:18:36 AM »
Everyone is always welcome to their own opinion.  Hell you can sew your ass shut and chop off your dick......It's a free world.  Just don't come near mine with anything sharp or we'll be in a fight.

I understand what the "stories" and "advice" have to say about coinfection and superinfection.  I just don't see the evidence.  My observation is that coinfection and superinfection would cause a significantly higher problem if they were real.

The core issue I take with most of the stories is that they come from STD prevention and education organizations.  They always have a good/bad theme that centers around being good by using condoms.  In each case they try to impart some sort of intelligence to the virus.  The problem is that the virus doesn't think.  It doesn't.  That is a fact.  The virus is a bit of genetic code.  It simply inserts itself into a host cell and proceeds to replicate.  

It doesn't plot, it doesn't scheme, it does not think.  It doesn't descriminate, it doesn't plan, in short it doesn't care, because again it does not think.  It is a fact that there is no brain in a virus.  A virus isn't even a complete cell.  It's a fragment of genetic instructions.  

Each story revolves around the virus "thinking" or acting in a way the compares to thinking, plotting, or scheming.  These actions are incompatible with a virus.  Remember a virus cannot think.  It can only insert itself and replicate.  That is all it does.  For that matter, that is all most life does anyhow.

Now, there are a few confirmed cases of people who got hundreds or thousands of loads up their ass.  Yes it's logical that they have caught one of everything.  It's not logical to compare occassional or regular sex to that type of behavior.  This is my other problem with the "stories" of super-infection.  It's just a crock of bull sh*t to say that because I have sex once a week, once a month, 3 times a week, whatever that I'm going to catch one of everything.  It is not the same as someone going to the bathhouse, getting fucked raw by 25 guys, and doing this every night for months or years.    That's 150 exposures a year vs 500+ exposures.  No I don't necessarily do that.... I wish I got laid that much.  hehe.  There is also the point that the person was getting fucked to the point of tearing up the skin and that made infection much easier.

The average guy who is not in a drug induced coma is going to have sex a few times at most.  Maybe once or twice.  Yes, some guys will dick hop at the baths.  Even so, it's not the same as what was purported to happen to cause the one case in NYC of super infection.

Now, all of that said.... if you want to use condoms... fine.  Go for it.  Good for you.  If you don't, great.... it's more fun bare, and yes it is a choice that each of us has to make.  There is risk either way.  You might catch a new STD.  The condom might break and you might catch it anyway.  The condom might not break and you might get crabs.  It's your personal decision to make.  If you want to make it because you are afraid of coinfection, superinfection, the boogie man, or santa.... just do it based on realistic risk factors.  

My point being that if you are going to the baths and get fucked by 25 guys a night you should probably be playing safe.  Or prepared to go where no doctor has gone before and chart a new frontier in HIV treatment.  On the bright side, your pet virus won't be lonely.... assuming it could think.  

If however, you are going to boink one guy or girl, who is also poz, then I do not think in my unqualified but well reasoned opinion that you have that much to worry about.  Your mileage may vary.  Your warranty on my opinion is limited and your rights are non-existant from state to state.  Cash Value 1/100 of 1 cent.  Transfer of my opinion is void where prohibited and some more nonsense that I hope makes you laugh.

If all else fails, you can always masturbate..... the worst that you can catch from that is a blister.  Last I heard those were still treatable, although a blister on a blister is pretty painful.  :)
Don't obsess over the wrong things.  Life isn't about your numbers, it isn't about this forum, it isn't about someone's opinion.  It's about getting out there and enjoying it.   I am a person with HIV - not the other way around.

Offline hotpuppy

  • Member
  • Posts: 555
Re: Sex without condoms between poz men?!
« Reply #19 on: November 29, 2008, 01:26:05 AM »
OK, OK....the thread asks about sex without condoms between poz men. Which also continues to state that it's between two men in a long term, monogamous relationship. Now, from what I was informed years ago...two men who continue to have unprotected sex and are both positive, will continue to reinfect each other therefore making it more difficult to continue treating both persons for HIV since the HIV antibody will become more resistant.

Don't you think that if re-infection was occurring there would be a lot of really sick people?  I don't know very many poz guys who use condoms with other poz guys.  I know of NO monogamous poz guys who use condoms with their partner.  It's sort of like the tooth fairy, I'm sure it exists, I've just never seen it/him/her. 

If this were a significant risk there would be case studies galore.  There are very few documented cases that I'm aware of.

I seem to recall that the one documented super-infection (again in NYC) also dealt with the fact that he was getting screwed by people from other countries and thus picking up the other strains.  I think that is a tad different than screwing your bf.

The lesson, if you can draw one, is that if you go become a cum dump at the baths you may get more than a hot load in your hole.   If you and your bf bang each other silly, you have little risk of reinfection if you are both infected with the same strain.  My understanding is that most guys in the US have HIV-2 subtype b.  Although, I wouldn't necessarily start comparing tropisms with a date.  Talk about unsexy chat.
Don't obsess over the wrong things.  Life isn't about your numbers, it isn't about this forum, it isn't about someone's opinion.  It's about getting out there and enjoying it.   I am a person with HIV - not the other way around.

 


Terms of Membership for these forums
 

© 2014 Smart + Strong. All Rights Reserved.   terms of use and your privacy
Smart + Strong® is a registered trademark of CDM Publishing, LLC.