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Author Topic: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?  (Read 14984 times)

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Offline fearless

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #50 on: October 21, 2008, 06:57:33 PM »
I know I'm going to catch all shit for this, but I personally don't believe the criminalization of HIV transmission is a black & white issue (for it or against it).  There's no doubting that it has gotten way out of hand in certain jurisdictions.  For instance,  I recoil when I see prosecutions of folks where transmission has not and CAN NOT occur (like spitting).

That said, I think someone who knowingly and intentionally infects another person should be subject to some sort of legal punishment.

There, I said it.  Bring it on.

This appears a little at odds with your statements in other threads that this is just a virus.
I vehemenlty oppose the criminilazation of HIV, in all cases. And, I would never ever out anyone to the authorities for doing so, just like I don't out my drug dealers, friends who take drugs or drive without seat belts, or speed. Personally, I think outing anybody is an incredibly low act.
If the neighbour doesn't want to protect himself then more fool him, but so be it. His choice, his responsibility.

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Offline Assurbanipal

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #51 on: October 21, 2008, 07:19:58 PM »
He didn't go out to spread the flu, TB or anything else. He knowingly went out with the intention of spreading HIV. BIG DIFFERENCE.

Except that he didn't.  He went out with the intention of having sex knowing he was infected.  That is simply not the same thing as intending to infect people with HIV.  "BIG DIFFERENCE"

Just like going out shopping (or even going on an international flight as happened in one highly publicized example) when you know you have drug resistant TB is not the same as intending to infect others with TB.

There's differences between ignorance, recklessness and malice.  By saying that he intended to spread HIV you and the OP have characterized this man's actions as malicious -- but they may actually be ignorant or reckless.  It would only be automatically a malicious act if transmission were assured with every sex act.  And by characterizing the act as malicious you automatically lean toward making it an issue for law enforcement -- if it were ignorance, as Newt pointed out, it would clearly be an issue of public health.   And as the example of drug resistant TB shows, for other diseases, the behaviour has to be extremely reckless before it is no longer a matter of public health and becomes a matter of law enforcement.

You know, when I pressed Peter for where he would draw the line, I was just curious and had no idea where to draw it myself.  But, as usual, Newt has made everything clear for me: malicious intent should be criminalized, but ignorant or reckless behaviour should only be criminal to the extent that other potentially harmful diseases (TB, HPV, etc. ) are similarly treated

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Offline mecch

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #52 on: October 21, 2008, 07:35:01 PM »
Haven't we discussed these issues in anothe recent thread, about the horrors of prosecution for "transmission" in some states - where there has been no transmission, just non disclosure.

Well since this thread has gone off on a tangent by hitting some kind of raw nerves.....

Sex is about more than legally and morally agreed upon risks or nonrisks.

If someone KNOWS they are poz, and are asked, and lie, and then transmits HIV, under any circumstances, accidental, or maliciously, it seems to warrent at least a civil trial, if not a criminal trial.  If the negative wants to pursue such a thing. 

Saying the negative who becomes positive in such a circumstance is "stupid", or "foolish" or "irresponsible" is somewhat blaming a victim.  Maybe irresponsible.  But the formerly negative was given NO choice to say no thanks... What ever happened to trust?  Passion??  If asked, positives should NOT lie.  If they lie, AND get away with it, (no transmission), then there is no crime.  If they lie, and transmit, tough shit, they lose. If the formerly negative wants to pursue it legally, and the state/nation allows it, I'm all for it. 

But all that is not practicable, because how to prove someone lied in the negotiation!!  Oh rot.

If the positive is not asked, but also does not disclose, and transmits, hmmm.  I'd still go with civil offense - he/she has inflicted harm...

Again, how to prove....

These discussions are getting awfully fine tuned, morally....

"What's the frequency, Kenneth"......
« Last Edit: October 21, 2008, 07:44:04 PM by mecch »
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Offline mecch

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #53 on: October 21, 2008, 07:40:47 PM »
There's differences between ignorance, recklessness and malice.  By saying that he intended to spread HIV you and the OP have characterized this man's actions as malicious -- but they may actually be ignorant or reckless.

Here here, the voice of reason. Thats why i was questioning the OP at the beginning of the thread - it sounds like the potential for vigilanteeism or as other said, a witch hunt...

But still it was nice that the OP was concerned, and thoughtful enough to try to figure out the correct response. Much appreciated.
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline Rayray

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #54 on: October 21, 2008, 08:22:27 PM »
I just want to be sure to thank everyone for there input on this matter.I have done everything that I think I can to make sure my neighbor does the correct things to protect himself and his future sex partners.
As for the guy who likes to post for sex on craigslist. I never posted his name or pointed him out directly.

My post said this in its wording.

Craigslist reponders please be aware that there are std's and hiv out there please be sure to help stop the transmission of these dreadful health hazards. PLEASE be responsible and wear a condom everytime you are sexually involved with anyone on this and any other site.Its cheaper to buy condoms then to pay for medications for the rest of your life.Keep yourself healthy,Be responsible.

I then posted a picture of my body not showing my private area or face and said You never know who has an std or hiv.I'm not a model but I do have a very healthy looking body so I've been told. Very hot or so I've been told.I have a husband so I dont really pay much attention to what is said .My point being everyone looks the same from the outside but can be completely different on the inside.STD"S and HIV do not dicriminate.

I was infected by my bf of 5 years soon to be husband who is in treatment for iv drug use.I'm not mad at him for my infection and I'm not out to hurt others that are hiv poz. I choose not to protect myself and can't blame anyone for my not being reponsible.I will however be the voice of reason and do anything I can to help protect others from contracting an std or hiv because of not wearing protection. As I said in prior post I'm not on a witch hunt.
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Offline Basquo

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #55 on: October 21, 2008, 09:26:11 PM »
Rayray, thanks for clarifying what you posted on craigslist.  I do NOT cringe when I see posts like that.  I thought you had pointed out the guy.

Also, I realized today that I am passive-aggressive.  I'll work on that.

 :)

Offline bocker3

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #56 on: October 21, 2008, 09:48:46 PM »
So, it seems to me that this isn't an "all or nothing" situation -- meaning it's not all one person's "fault" or the other's "fault".  The negative person should absolutely be taking responsibility for their health.  If they have condomless sex and end up infected, they are are certainly at "fault".  However, the poz person ALSO has some blame here and it wrong to absolve him of it, simply because someone was willing to have unsafe sex with them.  If you KNOW that you have a potentially lethal virus that could be passed on, it is morally and (and in many jurisdictions) legally incumbent on you to take all reasonable precautions from spreading it.  I can not imagine myself ever having condomless sex with a negative man or a man of unknown status -- PERIOD.  There is a difference in NOT knowing you are poz and KNOWING you are poz.
People are very passionate in this thread about personal responsibility - and I think that they are absolutely correct.  The personal responsibility runs to BOTH parties however. 
I agree that the rape comparison isn't necessarily the best choice, but let's choose this one:

A sober person gets in the car with a drunk guy.  The drunk guy has an accident and seriously injures his passenger.  Are we saying the drunk should get off scot free??  That the sober should have known better than to get in the car with him?  I will agree that the sober guy was nuts, stupid, whatever other word you'd like to use, but the drunk still should be prosecuted.

Now, to touch on the treating HIV different from other diseases probably isn't right either.  The laws are definitely too extreme -- we don't see people being charged with attempted murder for passing on HPV (which can cause cervical and kill just as easily as HIV can).  So, I agree that some sanity needs to be used in these laws -- and I don't see sanity coming to light given the stigma.  Therefore -- this is a tough area.  However, we can not and should not give a Poz person license to bareback with anyone "stupid" enough to let him.  Again -- personal responsibility lies with BOTH partners.
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Offline denb45

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #57 on: October 21, 2008, 09:59:23 PM »
i met a guy on poz.com that lives within five miles of me and he tells me he posts adds on craigslist to get guys to come to him and have unprotected sex.Or at times he goes to there houses which is why i'm writing.This guy was in my apt building with one of my neihbors. Now this guy who lives in my building is a bit older than myself but he is kinda slow if you know what i mean.But he is a very nice guy and i know he had this guy over and know what the two of them did because he told me one day as I was walking my dog about this guy he had met. I talk openly about being gay and live with my partner of five years who also is poz.But its killing me to tell this guy about what I have learned but cant decide if its any of my bussiness or not to report him for being so careless. Anyone have any input i could use it.Thanks

Ray, you can report this guy to your City/County Dept. of Public Health, if you have enough info about his where-abouts, and they will contact him, you can also remain anonymous , in most States, it is against the law ( a Felony) to knowingly infect someone with HIV & AIDS and if arrested and the victim testifies against the person who (had sex with them) , it doesn't matter if the victim ever comes down with HIV and the punishment is 5 to 10 yrs in State-Prison  it's called "assault with a deadly weapon" ??? there are a few cases in some States, and I do remember an article in POZ-MAG a few yrs. back, in NEW YORK STATE where this happened, and the person is still in prison  :)
« Last Edit: October 21, 2008, 10:12:42 PM by denb45 »
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Offline Ann

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #58 on: October 22, 2008, 06:51:32 AM »
I can't help but feel that someone who knowingly has unprotected anal or vaginal intercourse with someone of unknown hiv status - and then prosecutes for hiv - should also be prosecuted themselves.

How's that for shared responsibility?

To agree to have unprotected intercourse is to consent to the possibility of being infected with an STI. Sex with a condom lasts only a matter of minutes, but hiv is forever.

Ann
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Online RapidRod

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #59 on: October 22, 2008, 09:22:22 AM »
I can't help but feel that someone who knowingly has unprotected anal or vaginal intercourse with someone of unknown hiv status - and then prosecutes for hiv - should also be prosecuted themselves.

How's that for shared responsibility?

To agree to have unprotected intercourse is to consent to the possibility of being infected with an STI. Sex with a condom lasts only a matter of minutes, but hiv is forever.

Ann


"It will be a shared responsibility", a newly infected person will now be going on living a life with HIV and the low life that "knowingly infected" them will sit in prison.

Offline skeebo1969

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #60 on: October 22, 2008, 09:25:40 AM »

     This thread has pretty much gone the way  most threads about this topic turn.  Basically we come to the conclusion that the person infecting has less of a responsibility of keeping anther's  negative status than the person who is negative.

     I agree with that.

     The analogies used in this thread are usually the same ones used in all threads about this topic:

     If I have a gun doesn't give me the right to use it....  etc., etc....

     If a person is drunk is it OK to drive and possibly kill.... etc., etc....

     Driving without seatbelts puts you at risk... etc., etc....

     Most of these discussions generally stem from some criminal case we read in the paper or on the internet.  But here in this instance we have a few different circumstances.   He knows both people, thus putting a face to this issue for him sort of speak.  

     It makes me think of that saying, Am I my brother's keeper?  Of course this elicits some sort of prudence and I think it's something we all face no matter how small an issue it is, like when we tell the lady in front of us at the checkout counter that she dropped a quarter.  Does she really need it or do we do so because we would feel guilty if we didn't?

     If this topic was on a more personal level would our feelings change?  If it was his younger brother possibly getting infected by say, RayRay's friend...  or something similar would we be more inclined to get involved?  If so why?

    We were all there at one point, making a decision that dealt a lasting consequence.  A great deal of us knew the risks and still made a choice while knowing HIV/AIDS existed.  I would also go so far as saying most of us gained a lot of our knowledge on it after we were diagnosed.  We were foolish, possibly ignorant by choice.   Now we sit here knowing what we know   with our diplomas(diagnosis) in hand and choose to sit aside because we feel this guy should know to protect himself.

    Like I said before RayRay knows both these people, yes he may not know them on a personal level but he sees an actual face, not a picture of some  man/woman in the news paper; whom he doesn't know.  

    Personally I would be pissed if I knew a friend was out there with intent to infect others or didn't care  if he did.  I would be equally pissed at a negative friend  as well, but of course this anger would stem from knowing only what I know now.  Should I tell?

     We use the term "Hero" here in the forums for people who have paved a path either by educating others or simply by living with this disease and sharing their knowledge.  Where's the line in the sand start and end though?  What is the limit of educating someone in need whether it be giving someone  a simple heads up sort of speak...

     It really has me wondering....  Am I my brother's keeper?
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Offline Moffie65

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #61 on: October 22, 2008, 09:50:50 AM »
To agree to have unprotected intercourse is to consent to the possibility of being infected with an STI. Sex with a condom lasts only a matter of minutes, but hiv is forever.

Ann


Thanks Ann!
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and 362 to heterosexuals.
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It's just that they need more supervision.
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Offline madbrain

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #62 on: October 22, 2008, 07:45:21 PM »
Peter,


That said, I think someone who knowingly and intentionally infects another person should be subject to some sort of legal punishment.


I am with you on that one - someone who knows his HIV status, lies about it, and insists on having unprotected sex with others should not be able to keep doing so. However even if a legal statute against doing that existed, it would be a fairly difficult one to enforce.

Offline hotpuppy

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #63 on: October 23, 2008, 01:35:48 AM »
Wow, what an interesting and long thread.

1. Rayray.  Congrats on doing what was morally difficult but right to do.  It's often hard to do what is right because others do not often do what is the right thing when there is no obvious reward.

2. I have from time to time posted on craigslist "how not to catch HIV" in my area.  I am simply appalled at all the people asking for high risk sex.  There was an article on poz.com that talked about 25% of guys not knowing and 17% simply lying about HIV status.  damn if I can find it since I read it, but it's a good article.

3. While I'm not religious, I think sometimes there is a lesson to be learned.  What comes to mind is the phrase "let he who is without sin cast the first stone."  I agree with the concept of individual responsibility and also agree that there has to be a line drawn around typhoid Mikeys. (or marys).  I have known of individuals who deliberately were trying to infect others.  In one instance I stopped a friend from being victimized.  funny thing was the friend wanted to believe the guy that he was neg and it took me a bit to convince him.  This was before I was poz, and I know some might disagree, but regardless we have a moral obligation to protect our friends and neighbors.  We also have an obligation to respect one another.

4. Lastly, I was infected by someone who lied to me about their HIV status.  Yes, it's still my fault for engaging in unprotected sex with them.  Yes, you can damn me if you dare. Yes, it involved the internet.  I accept responsibility for my actions.  I also find that this is personally a dear issue to me.  I find comfort in my belief that Karma is one heck of a banker and that you should aspire to make deposits not withdrawals, and avoid overdrawing your karmic account.  At the end of the day no amount of being mad, blame, or hatred will change my HIV status or make a meaningful difference in my life.  I choose to focus my energy on what I can change and on the future.  I encourage you to do the same.   

One of the most confounding things I have encountered in life is when I know something but know that I cannot change someone's behavior.  HIV has brought me to this repeatedly.  I KNOW that the behavior I see at Club Houston, on Craigslist, on Manhunt, on Gay.com that some people behave in will lead to them becoming HIV Poz.  I also know that they don't want to hear it and are hostile to any assistance.  Long ago I was told to divide the problems I saw into those I had the power to fix and those I didn't.  It's a small step with great potential to let you focus on what you can do.  It's also a great way of letting go of things you can't change that annoy the heck out of you.
Don't obsess over the wrong things.  Life isn't about your numbers, it isn't about this forum, it isn't about someone's opinion.  It's about getting out there and enjoying it.   I am a person with HIV - not the other way around.

Offline madbrain

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #64 on: October 23, 2008, 08:50:26 PM »
hotpuppy,

2. I have from time to time posted on craigslist "how not to catch HIV" in my area.  I am simply appalled at all the people asking for high risk sex.  There was an article on poz.com that talked about 25% of guys not knowing and 17% simply lying about HIV status.  damn if I can find it since I read it, but it's a good article.

It's here : http://www.aidsmeds.com/articles/hiv_disclosure_sex_1667_15268.shtml . I have it bookmarked :). I have posted the link to some of my own cl ads in which I advertise my poz status.

Other times when I have gotten rejected after disclosing, I have also sent that link and wished people good luck in finding partners that are truly neg.

I don't know that it's changed anybody's mind so far, but at least it has raised some awareness.

Offline LordBerners

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #65 on: October 24, 2008, 05:02:06 AM »
I suppose I'll chime in - since so many have it seems acceptable to do so.

Of course I do not support any form of State prosecution of anyone for these consensual sex acts.  It seems unreasonable, impractical, and bigoted - based far more on vindictiveness and condemnation of certain lifestyles than any interest in implementing epidemiologically effective public policy. 

Prosecuting a few will not change the overall state of hiv or transmission in society to any significant degree (most transmissions occur, as we all know, between parties who are both ignorant of their status).  And after all this sort of persecution is just the sort of thing which dissuades people from getting tested in the first place - and testing is a far more effective way of fighting hiv in the population.

Lastly in a philosophical (though unfortunately not legal) sense it seems clear to me that the party who was 'placed at risk' or 'contracted hiv' from any such sex is entirely responsible for this, as he or she could simply have declined to participate.

On a more personal note, to Rayray.. this is not a criticism (to each his own), but in a situation like the one you describe, I would probably be inclined to mind my own business.  :) 
« Last Edit: October 24, 2008, 05:05:49 AM by LordBerners »
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Offline emeraldize

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #66 on: October 24, 2008, 07:54:27 AM »
I know I'm going to catch all shit for this, but I personally don't believe the criminalization of HIV transmission is a black & white issue (for it or against it).  There's no doubting that it has gotten way out of hand in certain jurisdictions.  For instance,  I recoil when I see prosecutions of folks where transmission has not and CAN NOT occur (like spitting).

That said, I think someone who knowingly and intentionally infects another person should be subject to some sort of legal punishment.
There, I said it.  Bring it on.

I agree. And, wish the CDC and other entities would work a little harder at informing the public about things such as spitting not being a transmission route to help lessen stigmatization and increase education of everyone, particularly all levels of the legal system from the beat cops to the judges.

Offline woodshere

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #67 on: October 24, 2008, 08:09:46 AM »
Of course I do not support any form of State prosecution of anyone for these consensual sex acts.  It seems unreasonable, impractical, and bigoted - based far more on vindictiveness and condemnation of certain lifestyles than any interest in implementing epidemiologically effective public policy. 

I agree and think many transmission laws need to be changed.  However, I cannot imagine any state legislature modernizing their state laws with the amount of stigma and ignorance that is rampant in our society.
"Let us give pubicity to HV/AIDS and not hide it..." "One of the things destroying people with AIDS is the stigma we attach to it."   Nelson Mandela

Offline GSOgymrat

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #68 on: October 24, 2008, 10:22:40 AM »
Let's say I decide I'm not getting enough sex when I tell people that I'm HIV+ so I start lying and tell people that I'm HIV-, that I was tested last month or that my wife and I just legally separated, and start having unprotected sex with people. I'm not intending to infect people I'm just trying to have more sex. One of my partners becomes infected and I tell her she should have know better and to take responsibility for her own behavior. I move on and continue having unprotected sex with people. What kind of repercussions should there be or should there be any repercussions?

Offline Ann

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #69 on: October 24, 2008, 10:36:38 AM »
It's one thing to lie and say you're hiv negative, but totally different to then proceed to have unprotected intercourse. If a person were to ask why you're using condoms, you could say that's how you've stayed hiv negative.

For the record, I think it's totally reprehensible for positive people to have unprotected intercourse with people who are negative or of unknown hiv status. Two pozzies together, well, that's their call if they're willing to risk other STIs.

And again, for the record, I think it's totally reprehensible for people who are or assume  they're hiv negative to have unprotected intercourse with people who are of unknown status.

And yes, I was once one of those people. Look where it got me. I would never have dreamed of taking anyone to court over it. I took and still take full responsibility for my own infection. I didn't insist on using condoms. I never said "no glove, no love." Silly me.

I think it's even more reprehensible for people who WILLINGLY have unprotected intercourse and end up hiv positive as a result to then go and prosecute the person they assume gave them their infection. That's what I was getting at when I said "I can't help but feel that someone who knowingly has unprotected anal or vaginal intercourse with someone of unknown hiv status - and then prosecutes for hiv - should also be prosecuted themselves."

Maybe if the person bringing suit against a positive person also faced some sort of legal responsibility for protecting themselves, fewer people would take the risk of having unprotected intercourse with persons of unknown hiv status. That's the ONLY way I can see the legislation of hiv transmission having ANY impact on the growing rates of new infections.

After all, if they can legislate the responsibility where we're concerned, the can legislate responsibility where negative folks are concerned too. It's a two way street. 

edited to correct a glaring boo-boo
« Last Edit: October 24, 2008, 10:40:44 AM by Ann »
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Offline skeebo1969

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #70 on: October 24, 2008, 10:55:02 AM »

   I want to commend RayRay once again for his actions.  I also think it is very admirable for him to actually care.  Judging from some of the comments here a lot of us would not.

  The gentleman, and I use that term loosely, who is HIV+ became so through wreckless sexual practices.  He doesn't have to worry about catching HIV anymore, so I guess he should be rewarded to bare back anyone he chooses.

  Every person here in the forums knows what it is like to receive this virus.  Many of us upon hearing our test results probably regretted our actions which caused us to sero convert, but unless you are one of the LTS here you knew HIV was available for the taking.  Whether our judgement was impaired through drug use/alcohol, hating condoms, whatever does it give us the right to not disclose, to not practice safer sex practices to ensure we don't infect others?

  There are women out there being infected by their husbands.  I guess condoms should be used even in the trusting relationship known as marriage now.

  The general public is aided in their thinking that we are dirty through stories like these.  Dismissing this man's actions is appalling.   As long as we are the minority when it comes to status it is people like him who will help keep the laws against transmission in the books.

  Once again, thanks RayRay for caring.  

  
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Offline jkinatl2

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #71 on: October 24, 2008, 11:48:42 AM »
Skeebo, please direct me to the posts where people were dismissive. I saw nothing of the sort, here.
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Offline Moffie65

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #72 on: October 24, 2008, 11:58:59 AM »

That said, I think someone who knowingly and intentionally infects another person should be subject to some sort of legal punishment.

There, I said it.  Bring it on.

I don't necessarily disagree, but would you kindly create a list of diseases and emotional consequences that might be prosecuted under this vague statement.  Surely the courts would not prosecute if it only covers the damage of HIV infection, becuase that would be constitutionally unenforceable.
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Offline GSOgymrat

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #73 on: October 24, 2008, 12:07:07 PM »
I don't necessarily disagree, but would you kindly create a list of diseases and emotional consequences that might be prosecuted under this vague statement.  Surely the courts would not prosecute if it only covers the damage of HIV infection, becuase that would be constitutionally unenforceable.

Maybe the law could interpret that intentionally exposing someone with a known pathogen (HIV, TB, Hepatitis, Anthrax) is considered assault, either with a deadly or non-deadly weapon and adjust the punishment accordingly. I'm not familiar with how the law reads.

Offline jkinatl2

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #74 on: October 24, 2008, 12:23:07 PM »
As long as the stigma of HIV infection continues, the mere accusation of deliberate infection would have the power to utterly and completely destroy a person's life.

Is it worth the price to catch a handful of predators? Is that what we endorse, the assumption that HIV negative people are presumed to be innocent and HIV positive people are presumed to be predators?

And yes, I do hold the bond between married persons to be a higher and different standard than the casual hookup. As such, it is a strawman argument when presented in this case, which is clearly a person who is having serial casual encounters with no contracts nor expectations other than the word (or lack thereof) of a stranger.

And what of the newly HIV positive person who sleeps with a known HIV positive person and then accuses their partner of infecting him/her? It would stand to reap monetary gain for the "innocent" victim, as well as destroying another human in the process.

There are monsters in this world, and they can be anyone. How do we establish a burden of proof, especially in the absence of multiple, documented infections? I am aware that tests can determine the genetic structure of a newly infected person and compare it to that of an established infection, but such tests are relatively rare, and certainly expensive, and only good for a limited window of time which any decent attorney can cause to pass.

Add to that the astonishing lack of credible HIV transmission knowledge prevalent in the judicial system, and I see criminalization of HIV to be a fundamentally flawed process that will sweep many "innocent" people into a hell from which there is no escape.

I am all for justice. I am totally against vengeance. If people choose to see that as complicity, then I am sorry for the anger and rage that clouds their judgment.



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Online RapidRod

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #75 on: October 24, 2008, 12:48:43 PM »
Like normal this thread is getting of course. The topic is, "Knowingly Spreading HIV."  And yes those that do it,  should be prosecuted to the fullest.

Offline skeebo1969

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #76 on: October 24, 2008, 12:52:19 PM »
Skeebo, please direct me to the posts where people were dismissive. I saw nothing of the sort, here.

  Ok Jonathan...


On a more personal note, to Rayray.. this is not a criticism (to each his own), but in a situation like the one you describe, I would probably be inclined to mind my own business.  :) 

  Of course we could argue that  minding ones own business can either be dismissive or proactive.  I guess it all depends which side of the fence you are on.  Jonathan I am in agreement with you that people who want to stay negative should take the precautions to do so, but I am also inclined to believe that the people who know their status also know how infectious they are if they bareback.
Not disclosing or lying for that matter is only motivated by one thing, their own personal pleasure of feeling skin on skin.

  
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Offline skeebo1969

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #77 on: October 24, 2008, 01:19:40 PM »



   Sexual education has been a failure since.... well when ever it began, hence decades upon decades of growing trends in teenage pregnancy.  It's failure is nothing new, people are going to ignore the risks regardless if it means having to wake up and feed a baby before school or taking your meds before work.   All I am saying is if you know you are positive and seeking unprotected sex then there should be some ramifications for doing so.  Trust me the negative party will receive their punishment for not using protection.  They will add to our growing positive population and be faced with some of the same issues..  like, well... whether to disclose or use protection on the next person.

  Has to end some where... why not with us?
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Offline jkinatl2

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #78 on: October 24, 2008, 01:22:53 PM »
I see where you stand there, and my imperative towards personal responsibility does work both ways. It is the responsibility of the infected person to AT BEST inform the partners of the direct (not theoretical) risk they take when they bareback.

I see it, however, as a shared responsibility. And in a very real sense, in the worst case scenario, both parties could find their lives utterly altered. Maybe destroyed. One through draconian prison sentencing and the public humiliation, and the other with a virus which must play a role, often a pivotal one, in almost every aspect of his/her life. Social stigma being one part of that.

If the person to whom the OP references is truly a remorseless sociopath, then the OP has several choices. He can confront the sociopath (and this can be potentially dangerous), can alert what authorities exist, can take it upon himself to inform the negative parties (and craigslist), or ignore the situation.

But whatever he does, he had better make damned sure he is right. That the monster in question was not just making idle statements, was indeed doing what he claimed to be doing, was indeed the monster he has been painted to be. Because the accusation, once made, cannot be retracted. And I still question the morality in playing God over another person's life when there is even the faintest possibility of being wrong.

And at the end of the day, is HIV prevention served? As you pointed out, anyone born since 1975 knows about HIV and condoms. Protecting people from their own self-destructive tendencies, or their ignorance, or their stupidity, or their drug/alcohol impaired judgment is full time work.

I agree we have an obligation to society as a whole. But being my brothers keeper... does this mean it is possible to save a person from himself, each and every time, for the entirety of his life? A person who will bareback with someone they meet from CL will, most liekly, do so again, with someone else, inside an internet hookup situation or out.

At AM we offer state of the art HIV information. And even in the midst of our relentlessly puritanical society, the knowledge of condom use and HIV prevention is not at all lost. It is, however, ignored by a large segment of the population. Can we consistently blame the government, or the people who lie, or who do not disclose, for the willful actions of people who have chosen to ignore that message?

What role do the infected play in the prevention of HIV in those who know the risks yet choose to take them? Answering only for myself, I am good to control my behavior. I cannot control that of others. Perhaps I am more jaded than I was ten years ago, when I thought that sacrificing my health, my talents, my time, was worth saving one person for one day. Now, I am far more selfish about my own worth, my time, my words and my actions.

To use a metaphor that has been brought up in this thread, I have taken the keys from friends who were in no condition to drive. And I have had my own keys confiscated. I have called 911 when I have seen a car driving erratically on the road, presenting a clear danger to others. I have stopped when I have seen an accident, to help if I can.

But its exhausting to try to police the world. And when someone makes the choice to expose him/herself to the possibility of HIV infection, I am disinclined to take their life into my hands.

"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

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Offline Ann

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #79 on: October 24, 2008, 01:35:15 PM »


   Sexual education has been a failure since.... well when ever it began, hence decades upon decades of growing trends in teenage pregnancy.  It's failure is nothing new, people are going to ignore the risks regardless if it means having to wake up and feed a baby before school or taking your meds before work.   All I am saying is if you know you are positive and seeking unprotected sex then there should be some ramifications for doing so.  Trust me the negative party will receive their punishment for not using protection.  They will add to our growing positive population and be faced with some of the same issues..  like, well... whether to disclose or use protection on the next person.

  Has to end some where... why not with us?

If sex education is such a failure in general, then why does the Netherlands have one of the LOWEST rates of teen pregnancy in the world? They start relationship education when the kids first enter the school system. It's not sex education that's at fault, but rather the lack of COMPREHENSIVE sex education. Too many places in the States - and elsewhere - teach abstinence only above all else and often to the total exclusion of any other model.

I wrote about this in my blog: http://blogs.poz.com/ann/archives/2008/09/learning_about.html

Personally, I firmly believe that this virus is being spread FAR more commonly by people who only THINK they're hiv negative. You know, the ones who are going around doing the majority of barebacking. I think it's a minority of positive people - those of us who KNOW we're positive - who are recklessly endangering others by barebacking without disclosure or through lies.

I really don't think most of the laws concerning hiv transmission are helping anyone. But as I say, if we can be held accountable, so should the negative/newly seroconverted be held accountable in a court of law. I'm not saying anyone who becomes infected should end up in court, I'm saying the people who take others to court for allegedly infecting them should also face charges. Two way street and all that. Obviously there are exceptions... use your head.

Ann
« Last Edit: October 24, 2008, 01:36:49 PM by Ann »
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HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline skeebo1969

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #80 on: October 24, 2008, 01:37:26 PM »

  Jonathan,

     I totally respect your views and this last post of yours leaves me in nothing but agreement.  Hopefully I will remember this post when the debate comes up again.

   Thank You
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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #81 on: October 24, 2008, 01:48:04 PM »


  Has to end some where... why not with us?

I totally agree.

 I dont want to police the world,However If I know of a situation that I could possibly change the outcome of by helping someone to understand the consequences of there actions then by all means I will do everything I can to help them make an informed decision




But whatever he does, he had better make damned sure he is right. That the monster in question was not just making idle statements, was indeed doing what he claimed to be doing, was indeed the monster he has been painted to be. Because the accusation, once made, cannot be retracted. And I still question the morality in playing God over another person's life when there is even the faintest possibility of being wrong.



.

Its not playing God over another person's life in my eye's, I would call it being an educator, As I posted in prior thread I never outed this guy personally naming him. Just put on cl to basically make your own choice but do it with the knowledge that there are ways to protect yourself and others in sexually incounters.
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Offline skeebo1969

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #82 on: October 24, 2008, 02:03:51 PM »
If sex education is such a failure in general, then why does the Netherlands have one of the LOWEST rates of teen pregnancy in the world? They start relationship education when the kids first enter the school system. It's not sex education that's at fault, but rather the lack of COMPREHENSIVE sex education. Too many places in the States - and elsewhere - teach abstinence only above all else and often to the total exclusion of any other model.

  Damn them  people in the Netherlands, they did it solely to prove me wrong! ;)


   
Personally, I firmly believe that this virus is being spread FAR more commonly by people who only THINK they're hiv negative. You know, the ones who are going around doing the majority of barebacking. I think it's a minority of positive people - those of us who KNOW we're positive - who are recklessly endangering others by barebacking without disclosure or through lies.

   OK, but in this instance the guy knows his status and purposely seeks out those to bareback.

  Obviously there are exceptions... use your head.

   You are right and in this instance this would be the exception ;).

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Online RapidRod

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #83 on: October 24, 2008, 02:07:15 PM »
If one of my HIV+ friends went out to knowingly infect others I wouldn't think twice about turning him/her in.

Offline emeraldize

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #84 on: October 24, 2008, 03:37:36 PM »
I'm not saying anyone who becomes infected should end up in court, I'm saying the people who take others to court for allegedly infecting them should also face charges. Two way street and all that. Obviously there are exceptions... use your head.

Ann


Hi Ann
I want to make sure I'm following you here. (Tried using my head and I'm not certain I'm coming up with the right exceptions. So, I need help.) If it weren't an alleged infection, if it were provable, defensible, then it can be a one-way street?

Offline David_CA

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #85 on: October 24, 2008, 05:19:57 PM »
Perhaps sex education in the Netherlands is first rate, but I doubt anybody posting in this thread is from there.  Instead, most of us live here in the US where we've seen and lived through sex education.  Along with the actual mechanics and biology of sex, I include STD's in sex ed.  Prior to an HIV+ diagnosis, I don't recall much about avoiding HIV except for celibacy or using a condom.  I don't remember ever knowing how low-risk oral sex is.  I recently asked a friend about her kids' HIV knowledge (they graduated from high school 2 & 4 years ago).  She asked them and said it was minimal, at best.  To me, it's just as important to know what is safe as what's not safe.  That way I can consider what risks I'm willing to take fully informed.  To think that spit, as well as sucking a dick, is just as risky as letting a guy top bare back is the result of poor HIV knowledge.  The fact that so many people do think this indicates poor HIV education and perpetuates ongoing stigma. 
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Offline newt

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #86 on: October 24, 2008, 06:15:50 PM »
Quote
I firmly believe that this virus is being spread FAR more commonly by people who only THINK they're hiv negative.

Ann, the science is, sadly, very much in your favour.

It would be helpful to me for people to distinguish between folk who intend to inflict HIV on people and folk who just have risky sex, neg or poz in further posts.

- matt
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Offline Peter Staley

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #87 on: October 24, 2008, 07:04:14 PM »
I really don't think most of the laws concerning hiv transmission are helping anyone. But as I say, if we can be held accountable, so should the negative/newly seroconverted be held accountable in a court of law. I'm not saying anyone who becomes infected should end up in court, I'm saying the people who take others to court for allegedly infecting them should also face charges. Two way street and all that. Obviously there are exceptions... use your head.

This whole shared responsibility argument seems to me to whitewash the very unequal actions of the two individuals.

One person is intentionally trying to harm another person.

The other person, through their own negligence, is harming themself.

Can those who are arguing some sort of equivalency or shared responsibility between these two people please explain to me why these two distinct differences in their actions don't matter?

Most societies use their legal systems primarily to punish those that harm others.  And most don't see the point of punishing those that harm themselves (thankfully).

Am I missing something here?

Again, I am only talking about someone who knowingly and intentionally infects another person.  Thankfully, we're talking about an incredibly small number of people.  Just because they are HIV positive shouldn't give them some sort of get-out-of-jail-free card for intentionally harming another individual, even if that individual bears some responsibility for putting themself in harm's way.

Offline newt

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #88 on: October 24, 2008, 08:12:14 PM »
But the original post said

Quote
i met a guy on poz.com that lives within five miles of me and he tells me he posts adds on craigslist to get guys to come to him and have unprotected sex

and nowt about knowingly intending to harm someone

Therefore this thread has probably gone miles off topic in terms of helping the original poster about what to do in terms of assisting his friend.

I agree, people who deliberately intend to harm others by getting them to become HIV+ are wrong, even criminally wrong, but as to how to help neighbours who are not au fait with safer sex, a much more important question, and i have no easy answer -- but I would dammit try.

- matt


« Last Edit: October 25, 2008, 04:19:47 AM by newt »
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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #89 on: October 24, 2008, 11:51:28 PM »
But the original post said

and nowt about knowingly intending to harm someone

but if that guy knows that he is positive, has not warned these partners, and purposely has unprotected sex then hasn't he knowingly put those people at very high risk of being harmed, if not actually harmed them if they would contract hiv from these encounters? If he is poz, can we not assume (I know what "assuming" something means LOL but I think I'm safe in making this assumption) that some medical person has explained this disease to him and that he risks spreading this infectous disease by having unprotected sex with other people?

to the OP, my advice would be to have a nice "chat" with your neighbor. A friendly warning about how HIV is spread and what precautions to take. Since you say you're open about being gay and poz, simply explaining that you'd hate to see him or anyone else you knew also contract this disease would be an easy way to bring up your chat without even mentioning what you know about the other guy. You too can be an activisit and an educator even if it's only to one person.  ;)
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Offline LordBerners

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #90 on: October 25, 2008, 05:19:52 AM »
Has to end some where... why not with us?

I think your sentiment is well stated and an appealing aphorism - perhaps even with undertones of the nobility of self-sacrifice, but nonetheless, unfortunately, it absolutely fails to reflect the reality of the situation, epidemiologically speaking.

If one of my HIV+ friends went out to knowingly infect others I wouldn't think twice about turning him/her in.

I can only comment that we, each of us, apparently, have our own (and quite often wildly disparate) definition of 'friend', RR.
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Offline emeraldize

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #91 on: October 25, 2008, 08:38:33 AM »
but if that guy knows that he is positive, has not warned these partners, and purposely has unprotected sex then hasn't he knowingly put those people at very high risk of being harmed, if not actually harmed them if they would contract hiv from these encounters?

You too can be an activisit and an educator even if it's only to one person.  ;)

Leatherman

I agree with you, not surprisingly, on both points.

If you know, then you are doing something knowingly. When you know that HIV is transmitted when condoms are not present and you have led your partner to believe you are not HIV positive by lying or withholding the truth and proceed to have sex without condoms then you intentionally, knowingly expose that person to your HIV.

Hmmm. Maybe it would be better if became more personalized, owned. I'm not gonna make my HIV your HIV.

So often we think of activism as some great group force, walkathons, bike-a-thons, etc. and yet the powerful touches we can give on a one-to-one basis is activism that often activates. All of my single, unmarried, sexually active friends of both sexes know of my status because that is the best way I can activate their brains to think protectively.

Offline blondbeauty

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #92 on: October 25, 2008, 07:14:12 PM »
That guy will pay for what he is doing. At the same time he is transmitting HIV he might be catching all the existing STDs. That is the price he will have to pay.
CONDOMS ARE NOT ENOUGH PROTECTION IF SOMEONE WANTS TO TRANSMITT HIV. I saw a film in which someone made little holes on her sisters condoms to make her become pregnant. So imagine the guy wears condoms but has carefully made holes on them with a needle. He will still infect people but nobody would know the got HIV.
Think about it...
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Counts when starting treatment:
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Offline madbrain

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #93 on: October 25, 2008, 07:48:57 PM »
That guy will pay for what he is doing. At the same time he is transmitting HIV he might be catching all the existing STDs. That is the price he will have to pay.

That is true, but is that punishment fitting enough ?

Quote
CONDOMS ARE NOT ENOUGH PROTECTION IF SOMEONE WANTS TO TRANSMITT HIV.

Well, it's still the best thing we got . What else do you propose ? Abstinence ?

Quote
I saw a film in which someone made little holes on her sisters condoms to make her become pregnant. So imagine the guy wears condoms but has carefully made holes on them with a needle. He will still infect people but nobody would know the got HIV.
Think about it...

It's possible, but he will not necessarily infect many people that way if that's the intent.

Remember, HIV infection doesn't happen every time, even when not using condoms.

There are a lot of other parameters that matter such as the VL of the giver, where the sexual contact happens, whether the recipient has any cuts or is bleeding, to name just a few.

A damaged condom would probably stilll reduce the HIV infection risk somewhat, just less so than one that hadn't been damaged. I don't know how much less so.

Offline blondbeauty

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #94 on: October 25, 2008, 07:53:43 PM »
I know all that...The people that are not protecting themselves are as guilty as him...but if he makes holes to the condoms...then he is the only guilty because he is making prevention impossible for people that are trying to protect themselves.
The only member in these forums approved by WINBA: World International Nail and Beauty Association.
Epstein Barr +; CMV +; Toxoplasmosis +; HIV-1 +.
Counts when starting treatment:
V.L.:80.200 copies. CD4: 25%=503
Started Sustiva-Truvada 14/August/2006
Last V.L.count (Oct 2013): Undetectable
Last CD4 count (OCT 2013): 52%= 933

Offline madbrain

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #95 on: October 25, 2008, 08:14:03 PM »
I know all that...The people that are not protecting themselves are as guilty as him...but if he makes holes to the condoms...then he is the only guilty because he is making prevention impossible for people that are trying to protect themselves.

No question. If he intentionally damages the condom without telling his partner, the situation is closer to unprotected sex without consent of the other party . I don't know what statute that would fall under, if any.

However, the thread was about intentionally infecting through unprotected sex, something that both partners have to consent to.

Offline blondbeauty

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #96 on: October 25, 2008, 08:32:47 PM »
Sorry for not sticking to the subjet with the precision of a clock.
The only member in these forums approved by WINBA: World International Nail and Beauty Association.
Epstein Barr +; CMV +; Toxoplasmosis +; HIV-1 +.
Counts when starting treatment:
V.L.:80.200 copies. CD4: 25%=503
Started Sustiva-Truvada 14/August/2006
Last V.L.count (Oct 2013): Undetectable
Last CD4 count (OCT 2013): 52%= 933

Offline LordBerners

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #97 on: October 26, 2008, 03:03:11 AM »
... HIV is transmitted when condoms are not present...

Haha, if only their mere presence would prevent transmission - like, sitting in the pack on the nightstand. :)

Sorry, that sentence just struck me as funny.
Please, just call me Berners.. or Baron.

Offline emeraldize

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #98 on: October 26, 2008, 08:08:52 AM »
Haha, if only their mere presence would prevent transmission - like, sitting in the pack on the nightstand. :)

Sorry, that sentence just struck me as funny.

Thankfully, your Lordship, I'm confident you know the meaning intended. But, you're right, read in a different way it has humorous potential. You might envision a cartoon-like condom, sitting with legs crossed and dangling over the edge of that nightstand---with a dialog bubble above encasing "I will make yours the best-dressed dick in the room." or " No one pricked holes in me, honest." or "I can give you peace of mind with your piece of ass." or " Let me be your MemBrain." or (fill in the blank).

Offline Basquo

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #99 on: October 26, 2008, 07:57:12 PM »
"Let me be your MemBrain."

LOL @ Em!

 


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