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Author Topic: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?  (Read 17904 times)

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Offline Rayray

  • Member
  • Posts: 25
Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« on: October 18, 2008, 06:58:04 PM »
i met a guy on poz.com that lives within five miles of me and he tells me he posts adds on craigslist to get guys to come to him and have unprotected sex.Or at times he goes to there houses which is why i'm writing.This guy was in my apt building with one of my neihbors. Now this guy who lives in my building is a bit older than myself but he is kinda slow if you know what i mean.But he is a very nice guy and i know he had this guy over and know what the two of them did because he told me one day as I was walking my dog about this guy he had met. I talk openly about being gay and live with my partner of five years who also is poz.But its killing me to tell this guy about what I have learned but cant decide if its any of my bussiness or not to report him for being so careless. Anyone have any input i could use it.Thanks
« Last Edit: October 18, 2008, 07:06:05 PM by Rayray »
Tested feb 2007 neg
Seroconvert 07/2007
Diagnosed w/ Aids-PCP-Mac-Thrush-PN
09/07 CD4 71 Put on zidovudrine, Efarivnz, prednisone,bactrim ds,Z pak,Diflucan,Mepron
10/07 CD4 9 160,000,000  Stopped all pre meds for observations found current ID. started on Atripila for two weeks end due to sustiva allergy
11/07 CD4 4 VL-1600,000start Norvir-Truvada-Reytaz
12/07 CD4 83 VL-1600,000
02/08 CD4 488 VL- 4100
05/08 CD4 514 VL- 4200
07/08 CD4 434 VL- <400
10/08 Cd4 531 VL-Undetectable
10/16/2008 cd4 393 VL-undetectable
01/29/2009 cd4 419 VL-undetectable
04/28/2009 cd4 385 VL-undetectable
08/06/2009 cd4 358 VL-undetectable
12/14/2010 cd4 741 VL-undetectable

Offline Moffie65

  • Member
  • Posts: 1,755
  • Living POZ since 1983
Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #1 on: October 18, 2008, 07:39:22 PM »
Ray, I answer this post to let you know I am thinking about it, but hell, I just cannot come up with a really respectable answer just yet.  You do come up with a really good one.  I look forward to some of the responses.

Very Interesting.
The Bible contains 6 admonishments to homosexuals,
and 362 to heterosexuals.
This doesn't mean that God doesn't love heterosexuals,
It's just that they need more supervision.
Lynn Lavne

Offline Rayray

  • Member
  • Posts: 25
Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #2 on: October 18, 2008, 07:56:35 PM »
thanks for letting me know your thinking about it.
This has been driving me crazy all week.
Tested feb 2007 neg
Seroconvert 07/2007
Diagnosed w/ Aids-PCP-Mac-Thrush-PN
09/07 CD4 71 Put on zidovudrine, Efarivnz, prednisone,bactrim ds,Z pak,Diflucan,Mepron
10/07 CD4 9 160,000,000  Stopped all pre meds for observations found current ID. started on Atripila for two weeks end due to sustiva allergy
11/07 CD4 4 VL-1600,000start Norvir-Truvada-Reytaz
12/07 CD4 83 VL-1600,000
02/08 CD4 488 VL- 4100
05/08 CD4 514 VL- 4200
07/08 CD4 434 VL- <400
10/08 Cd4 531 VL-Undetectable
10/16/2008 cd4 393 VL-undetectable
01/29/2009 cd4 419 VL-undetectable
04/28/2009 cd4 385 VL-undetectable
08/06/2009 cd4 358 VL-undetectable
12/14/2010 cd4 741 VL-undetectable

Offline Graywolf

  • Member
  • Posts: 47
Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #3 on: October 18, 2008, 07:58:39 PM »
That's a tough call. I remember about 18 years ago there was a guy in Boston, very good looking, horse hung (from what I was told) who was poz and would pick up guys, take them home fuck them very rough, then whisper in their ear, I have aids now you will too. A couple of guys showed up at one of the support group I attended who had just seroconverted and told the story about.

I saw the guy on the street, he didn't know I was poz and he always said "hi hot stuff, wanna fuck" I told him what I knew and what he was doing was immoral to say the least. His response, "someone infected me, if they're willing to play unsafe then they take their chances" thank goodness he was one of the only people I met who had that attitude. A few of us found out where he lived and decided to pay him a visit en force, but he had moved out and skipped town.

It's a tough call, as I mentioned. Do you call the police? the health department? We discussed this at the group. Sure I was angry and bitter when I found I was poz in 85, but giving it to someone was the last thing on my mind, plus I'm more afraid of getting yet another bug from a stranger than of infecting them. I don;t think I could live with myself knowing I had infected someone
"If we don't learn to live as brothers, we will perish as fools" - Dr martin Luther King Jr

Offline Rayray

  • Member
  • Posts: 25
Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #4 on: October 18, 2008, 08:10:47 PM »
I see his add on craigslist and i flag it. So that craigslist takes it off the posting. but only for that posting. He is alowed to post up to three post a day, so i try to stay up on them, but cant baby sit him forever and i dont want to out him on there. i could maybe be sued for slander or defimation i think.I did however post on there that there's a guy out there in our the area that is hiv poz and he wants to have unprotected sex so make sure you cover it up and or play safe with everyone.Its all I could think to do for now.As far as the police the town I live in really could care less they told me they cant do anything until someone reports they have been personally hurt by this guy.And the officer said he thinks its sick that guys have sex with guys and if there stupid enough to not wear protection then its there own fault.I had to ask him to leave before i went to jail for assulting an officer.
Tested feb 2007 neg
Seroconvert 07/2007
Diagnosed w/ Aids-PCP-Mac-Thrush-PN
09/07 CD4 71 Put on zidovudrine, Efarivnz, prednisone,bactrim ds,Z pak,Diflucan,Mepron
10/07 CD4 9 160,000,000  Stopped all pre meds for observations found current ID. started on Atripila for two weeks end due to sustiva allergy
11/07 CD4 4 VL-1600,000start Norvir-Truvada-Reytaz
12/07 CD4 83 VL-1600,000
02/08 CD4 488 VL- 4100
05/08 CD4 514 VL- 4200
07/08 CD4 434 VL- <400
10/08 Cd4 531 VL-Undetectable
10/16/2008 cd4 393 VL-undetectable
01/29/2009 cd4 419 VL-undetectable
04/28/2009 cd4 385 VL-undetectable
08/06/2009 cd4 358 VL-undetectable
12/14/2010 cd4 741 VL-undetectable

Offline skeebo1969

  • Member
  • Posts: 5,707
Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #5 on: October 18, 2008, 08:55:20 PM »


  Touchy subject indeed.   I would be so torn between telling the guy in your building and not doing so.  Guilt would probably be my driving force to perhaps talk to the guy .  I would probably ask if he got tested regularly or something.  If his answer were yes every 6 months or along those lines, I might just mind my own business and hope he insisted on protection.  If he says he does not get tested regularly then perhaps you could have a path way to ask if he uses protection or not..

  I don't know man, tough call....
I despise the song Love is in the Air, you should too.

Offline mecch

  • Member
  • Posts: 12,174
  • red pill? or blue pill?
Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #6 on: October 18, 2008, 10:01:31 PM »
IAnd the officer said he thinks its sick that guys have sex with guys and if there stupid enough to not wear protection then its there own fault.I had to ask him to leave before i went to jail for assulting an officer.

The officer is correct. Everyone must protect himself.
Its not clear in your story if the "suspect" is lying to people or disclosing. If he says he is positive, and then gets people to fuck unsafe, well depending on your state, it is maybe illegal, or maybe not.

I suggest you have a talk with your "simple" neighbor to see if he understands what the rules of safe sex are. 

As to "Typhoid Mary", we don't have enough information to pronounce on him.
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline David_CA

  • Member
  • Posts: 3,246
  • Joined: March 2006
Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #7 on: October 18, 2008, 11:02:43 PM »
The officer is only partially correct, in my mind.  Yes, everybody should protect themself.  If an individual invites a stranger into their home, and the stranger steals a bunch of their stuff, the cop's not going to say 'well, you shouldn't have invited them in'.  Well, he may, but he's still obligated to do something about it.  I think it's the cop's prejudices about gay guys and HIV showing.  If you want to report it, I'd suggest the health dept.  You could at least call and ask what you can do. 
Black Friday 03-03-2006
03-23-06 CD4 359 @27.4% VL 75,938
06-01-06 CD4 462 @24.3% VL > 100,000
08-15-06 CD4 388 @22.8% VL >  "
10-21-06 CD4 285 @21.9% VL >  "
  Atripla started 12-01-2006
01-08-07 CD4 429 @26.8% VL 1872!
05-08-07 CD4 478 @28.1% VL 740
08-03-07 CD4 509 @31.8% VL 370
11-06-07 CD4 570 @30.0% VL 140
02-21-08 CD4 648 @32.4% VL 600
05-19-08 CD4 695 @33.1% VL < 48 undetectable!
08-21-08 CD4 725 @34.5%
11-11-08 CD4 672 @39.5%
02-11-09 CD4 773 @36.8%
05-11-09 CD4 615 @36.2%
08-19-09 CD4 770 @38.5%
11-19-09 CD4 944 @33.7%
02-17-10 CD4 678 @39.9%  
06-03-10 CD4 768 @34.9%
09-21-10 CD4 685 @40.3%
01-10-11 CD4 908 @36.3%
05-23-11 CD4 846 @36.8% VL 80
02-13-12 CD4 911 @41.4% VL<20
You must be the change you want to see in the world.  Mahatma Gandhi

Offline auspoz

  • Member
  • Posts: 161
Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #8 on: October 18, 2008, 11:04:29 PM »
I'd be making an anonymous phone call to the HIV/AIDS authorities.

Offline mecch

  • Member
  • Posts: 12,174
  • red pill? or blue pill?
Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #9 on: October 19, 2008, 04:34:36 AM »
The officer is only partially correct, in my mind. 

Of course you're right, the cops were being offensive and prejudiced.  I only meant its correct to protect yourself.

The information that is lacking:  Does the guy disclose:

On craig's list - does the guy disclose??  we don't know
Does he disclose before sex with the partner he finds?  we don't know

I agree, its often irresponsible to have unsafe sex if you are poz, but not in all circumstances.. Lots of poz gays do it with each other with consent...  And some craig's list ads, of the "cum dump in me" variety, well, I guess nobody is even asking the question who is poz.

There is the elephant in the room question, which is also perhaps tangential, but is typhoid mary on HAART and undetectable? (Yes I know that does not give one a permit for unprotected sex, but it could mitigate our rush to judge mary, because some gays DO use viral level information that way, and inform others before sex about such information.)

I think what worries me is that we don't know what's going on behind closed doors to pronounce. 

I can't imagine what an "authority" could do in the described situation, unless it was in an area where it is illegal for a HIV+ person to have unprotected sex.  If we assume the cops know the law in the area then his quote  "they told me they cant do anything until someone reports they have been personally hurt by this guy" would suggest that there are no criminal intent laws.

In my opinion, this story had raised a lot of anxiety in RayRay. ("This has been driving me crazy all week.".)

Rayray, can you provide more information about Typhoid Mary - do you know if the guy has the intent to infect someone with HIV?

Rayray, can you provide more information about HIV transmission laws in your area?

Rayray, you are concerned about slander - (saying something malicious) and defamation (making a false claim). 

You may be making false claims if you don't really know what the guy is doing when he is finally having sex.

Calling the police and posting a general warning on Craigs list that there is a Typhoid Mary does accomplish 2 good things
1) It definitely makes you feel better that you have done something constructive about a situation that is causing you anxiety.
2) The craigs list warning may have some public health benefit - it might remind people to alway use protection.

But posting on Craigs list about a "malicious Typhoid Mary character in our midst" -- meaning hey guys, there is a poz "out there" who wants to have unprotected sex and infect you....  Is that what you posted?

I think this might also have, perhaps, a negative effect on hiv+ people in general. Its a reminder that there are bad people, but it sort of invites prejudice and worse, perhaps incites a kind of vigilanteeism.

« Last Edit: October 19, 2008, 04:40:57 AM by mecch »
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline Joe K

  • Global Moderator
  • Member
  • Posts: 3,878
  • 31 Years Poz
Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #10 on: October 19, 2008, 10:43:24 AM »
Ray, I do not think this issue is as difficult, as you may believe.  If you know, for a fact, that this guy is poz and engages in unprotected sex, I would do the following.

Call the Health Department and discuss this issue with them.  Surely they can guide you.

I would also get a safer sex booklet and give it to your neighbor, so he has something concrete to refer to in the future.  You could also use this time to talk about testing, or whatever else you think may be helpful to him.

After that, you are done and your conscience should be clear.

Offline Rayray

  • Member
  • Posts: 25
Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #11 on: October 19, 2008, 10:50:22 AM »
this guy tells me he doesn't tell anyone of his status.NOT his family freinds anyone.He said he was in hospital for three weeks and told his job he was fine.so as far as him telling his sex partners he made it clear it was none of there business.I did post on craigs list but didn't name him just posted there is a guy in our area having unprotected sex who may be hiv+ So always have protected sex didn't say he was because I still dont know the law here.I would never out anyone.And certainly wouldn't make false claims about them.I myself dont know the laws here where i live but will definatly be doing some research to better understand what is legal and what is not.I dont know if he really wants to infect someone else but as for the conversation we had. To me he seemded to be saying he got it and no one told him they had it so why should he tell anyone. I just hope people are smart enough to protect them selves.

One person cant change the world but can make a world of change!
Tested feb 2007 neg
Seroconvert 07/2007
Diagnosed w/ Aids-PCP-Mac-Thrush-PN
09/07 CD4 71 Put on zidovudrine, Efarivnz, prednisone,bactrim ds,Z pak,Diflucan,Mepron
10/07 CD4 9 160,000,000  Stopped all pre meds for observations found current ID. started on Atripila for two weeks end due to sustiva allergy
11/07 CD4 4 VL-1600,000start Norvir-Truvada-Reytaz
12/07 CD4 83 VL-1600,000
02/08 CD4 488 VL- 4100
05/08 CD4 514 VL- 4200
07/08 CD4 434 VL- <400
10/08 Cd4 531 VL-Undetectable
10/16/2008 cd4 393 VL-undetectable
01/29/2009 cd4 419 VL-undetectable
04/28/2009 cd4 385 VL-undetectable
08/06/2009 cd4 358 VL-undetectable
12/14/2010 cd4 741 VL-undetectable

Offline mecch

  • Member
  • Posts: 12,174
  • red pill? or blue pill?
Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #12 on: October 19, 2008, 11:35:08 AM »
Thanks for the extra information.

As described, I think your post on Craigs list was respectful of the persons privacy.

Its kind of you to be concerned for everyone possibly involved, such as your neighbor.  And as you said, you can't control everything. 

You said the situation is driving you crazy, maybe you could try to contact the guy in question, again, on the Poz chat, and have a conversation directly with him about your concerns.  Since he DID tell you on the POZ chat that he is poz, and volunteer the information you already know, then he may be looking to talk about his hiv+ status and his sex practices. 

He seems to be doing two different things - 1) disclosing on a chat and talking to other HIV+ people (probably a good thing for him) and 2) posting on Craigs list and meeting for sex and not disclosing (obviously a bad action).

I don't know if you feel like the guy is worth the effort, but it seems you might be able to educate him a bit about his responsibilities.  And talking directly to him, you could certainly have the opportunity to tell him how you personally feel about his actions and what is means to others. 

If you do chat with him again, I suppose it would not be constructive to mention your previous call to the police about him.  Unless the conversation isn't going well, and you use that as a threat of some sort - which doesnt sound like it would be useful for this guy.  He sounds like a really narcissistic person, a nut case.

Anyway, another conversation would be an opportunity to get more information. 

While you also take the time to see if there IS indeed anything you can do about referring him to local "authorities" whoever they be, who could have some say on the matter.

It is kind of you to be thinking of others.  I hope you have a constructive result if you pursue it, but don't put yourself at any risk in the process.

“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline Moffie65

  • Member
  • Posts: 1,755
  • Living POZ since 1983
Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #13 on: October 19, 2008, 12:49:06 PM »
I've thought about this Ray, and I fall square in the place Joe Killfoile is.  Your concern for your neighbor is admirable, but it ultimately is his responsibility to cover up with any of his liasons. 

I would advise that a talk with him about safer sex practices is probably what I would do, and to make sure he understands that HIV is certainly not under control, as many uneducated believe.  After all, if he is a Republican, then there is every possibility that he thinks he is no longer in danger because of the information coming out of Washington over the last 8 years.

Other than that, you are not the police, and not the health department, and your moral responsibility is something only you can figure out on your own.  Personally I have always come down on the side of the prey rather than the preditor, but laws in most states still stand on the side of the prey, and informing them that they ultimately are the responsible party to cover up with sex.  If we in this country had been able to make the point that each and every man and woman in this country needs to take responsiblity for themselves; who knows where the plague would now be in America.  I know for sure that some countries in Africa who have taken very aggressive stances on condom use have actually started to reverse the trends of infection, so we cannot say that this message will not work.  Remember, these countries have done this in the face of loosing millions of dollars, because all the money DC has offered has been tied to exclusive abstinence training.  They knew this wouldn't work and instead of taking dollars from us, they have developed really effective outreach programs that trumpet the use of condoms and testing all the time.

In summation, I would suggest you inform your neighbor about safer sexual practices, and also that HIV is still very much a danger; and then you will have done the right and perfect thing.  He must show some responsibility for his own health, once he has been informed.  He also may then come out to you about his own HIV+ status, which will not only remove you from the picture, but also give you one more person in your sphere who is HIV+ and a possible friendship. 
The Bible contains 6 admonishments to homosexuals,
and 362 to heterosexuals.
This doesn't mean that God doesn't love heterosexuals,
It's just that they need more supervision.
Lynn Lavne

Offline Rayray

  • Member
  • Posts: 25
Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #14 on: October 19, 2008, 01:55:52 PM »
I have just spoken with my neighbor and he says he is neg.I then told him what I learned and he was a bit upset but thanked me for the info he told me he didn't use protection but that he will from this point on I told him he may need to go get tested and if he wanted i would take him so he will not be alone.He saidhe wouldlet me know.As for the other guy.I will just let him be.I cant concerne myself with him anymore Someone so careless as to not inform or use protection after being told the dangers is not the type of person I would like to be around. I sent him an email voicing my distaste forhis actions and told him if ever he wanted to discuse better ways to deal with his infection to  give me a shout.

P.S. Thank you everyone for your help with this situation.I look forward to more discussion in the future.
Tested feb 2007 neg
Seroconvert 07/2007
Diagnosed w/ Aids-PCP-Mac-Thrush-PN
09/07 CD4 71 Put on zidovudrine, Efarivnz, prednisone,bactrim ds,Z pak,Diflucan,Mepron
10/07 CD4 9 160,000,000  Stopped all pre meds for observations found current ID. started on Atripila for two weeks end due to sustiva allergy
11/07 CD4 4 VL-1600,000start Norvir-Truvada-Reytaz
12/07 CD4 83 VL-1600,000
02/08 CD4 488 VL- 4100
05/08 CD4 514 VL- 4200
07/08 CD4 434 VL- <400
10/08 Cd4 531 VL-Undetectable
10/16/2008 cd4 393 VL-undetectable
01/29/2009 cd4 419 VL-undetectable
04/28/2009 cd4 385 VL-undetectable
08/06/2009 cd4 358 VL-undetectable
12/14/2010 cd4 741 VL-undetectable

Offline Moffie65

  • Member
  • Posts: 1,755
  • Living POZ since 1983
Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #15 on: October 19, 2008, 01:59:10 PM »
Hey Ray,

Just make sure he waits for the 90 days to pass before the test.  I'm sure you know that, but just a reminder.
The Bible contains 6 admonishments to homosexuals,
and 362 to heterosexuals.
This doesn't mean that God doesn't love heterosexuals,
It's just that they need more supervision.
Lynn Lavne

Offline David_CA

  • Member
  • Posts: 3,246
  • Joined: March 2006
Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #16 on: October 19, 2008, 02:14:59 PM »
Personally, it would be hard for me to be in Ray's situation.  Sure, we should all use protection; that's a no-brainer.  Some folks are also no-brainers (slow, ignorant, stupid, whatever).  Still, if the guy is simply not disclosing before topping a neg guy, it's sort of a gray area for me.  If he's undetectable and bottoming, the gray is a little lighter (much less of a risk of transmission).  If he's intentionally trying to spread HIV, that's where the situation becomes very clear... at least to me.  There is no excuse for that.  I like to think of pedestrians crossing the street.  We're all told to look both ways before we cross.  As a driver, we're told pedestrians have the right of way.  So, which is it?  If a pedestrian wants to stay uninjured, he needs to make sure it's safe to cross.  As a driver, if I don't want to hit a pedestrian, I need to do what it takes to not hit one.  But, what if I intentionally try to hit a pedestrian.  It's pretty clear that's not acceptable. 

Another way to handle the situation would be to inform the health dept. that you are HIV+ and have had sex with this individual (the one who's posting on Craigslist, etx) and he might be exposed.  You can stay anonymous to the health dept.  At least here, they will contact the guy and want him tested.  They can't force him (as far as I know), but perhaps this will be enough; he won't really know what to make of the call.  It's like having noisy neighbors at night and a cop just stopping by to check things out.  Maybe he can't really do anything, but often that's all it takes to quieten things down.

David
Black Friday 03-03-2006
03-23-06 CD4 359 @27.4% VL 75,938
06-01-06 CD4 462 @24.3% VL > 100,000
08-15-06 CD4 388 @22.8% VL >  "
10-21-06 CD4 285 @21.9% VL >  "
  Atripla started 12-01-2006
01-08-07 CD4 429 @26.8% VL 1872!
05-08-07 CD4 478 @28.1% VL 740
08-03-07 CD4 509 @31.8% VL 370
11-06-07 CD4 570 @30.0% VL 140
02-21-08 CD4 648 @32.4% VL 600
05-19-08 CD4 695 @33.1% VL < 48 undetectable!
08-21-08 CD4 725 @34.5%
11-11-08 CD4 672 @39.5%
02-11-09 CD4 773 @36.8%
05-11-09 CD4 615 @36.2%
08-19-09 CD4 770 @38.5%
11-19-09 CD4 944 @33.7%
02-17-10 CD4 678 @39.9%  
06-03-10 CD4 768 @34.9%
09-21-10 CD4 685 @40.3%
01-10-11 CD4 908 @36.3%
05-23-11 CD4 846 @36.8% VL 80
02-13-12 CD4 911 @41.4% VL<20
You must be the change you want to see in the world.  Mahatma Gandhi

Offline Desertguy

  • Member
  • Posts: 183
Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #17 on: October 19, 2008, 09:08:15 PM »
So what city is this guy in?

Offline next2u

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #18 on: October 20, 2008, 02:10:38 AM »
that guy is a fucktard and should be punished - repeatedly. contact your local health authorities and post about his ass anonymously. something to the tune of "hey, this guy is poz. there are a lot of good pozzies out there, he is not one of them. use a condom, cause he won't. its ur responsibility to protect yourself and assholes like him want to exploit you."

i know its not the best thing in the world but you are in a grey spot. whatever you decide, more power to you.

 
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Offline madbrain

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #19 on: October 20, 2008, 06:45:54 PM »
i met a guy on poz.com that lives within five miles of me and he tells me he posts adds on craigslist to get guys to come to him and have unprotected sex.Or at times he goes to there houses which is why i'm writing.This guy was in my apt building with one of my neihbors. Now this guy who lives in my building is a bit older than myself but he is kinda slow if you know what i mean.But he is a very nice guy and i know he had this guy over and know what the two of them did because he told me one day as I was walking my dog about this guy he had met. I talk openly about being gay and live with my partner of five years who also is poz.But its killing me to tell this guy about what I have learned but cant decide if its any of my bussiness or not to report him for being so careless. Anyone have any input i could use it.Thanks

It is disgusting to hear that there are people doing that out there.

Definitely talk to the health authorities and see what they can do. I wonder what that would be, though.

Unless he is caught in the act of having unprotected sex with somebody without having previously disclosed his status, I'm not sure that they can actually do anything.

Offline lean2265

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #20 on: October 20, 2008, 07:00:35 PM »
Rayray

Ur pic looks cute heheehehehehheehheeheh ::) ;) :-[

Offline fearless

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #21 on: October 20, 2008, 07:13:19 PM »
Personally, I'd let it slide. It's not your job to police the world. Your neighbour should be protecting himself. At worst, I would contact the guy on poz.com/craiglist and tell you don't think what he does his right. What he then does is his business.
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Offline Rayray

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #22 on: October 20, 2008, 10:56:20 PM »
I have been on craigslist as I posted in prior thread.AndIhave spokenwith the guy and he could careless what he is doing.I have done what I could to tell him how wrong he is.As far as reporting him knowing his name I did give it to the dept of health if its his real name they said they would deal with it I will check back with them in a few days to see that something was done to discurage this guy from his practices.
Tested feb 2007 neg
Seroconvert 07/2007
Diagnosed w/ Aids-PCP-Mac-Thrush-PN
09/07 CD4 71 Put on zidovudrine, Efarivnz, prednisone,bactrim ds,Z pak,Diflucan,Mepron
10/07 CD4 9 160,000,000  Stopped all pre meds for observations found current ID. started on Atripila for two weeks end due to sustiva allergy
11/07 CD4 4 VL-1600,000start Norvir-Truvada-Reytaz
12/07 CD4 83 VL-1600,000
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05/08 CD4 514 VL- 4200
07/08 CD4 434 VL- <400
10/08 Cd4 531 VL-Undetectable
10/16/2008 cd4 393 VL-undetectable
01/29/2009 cd4 419 VL-undetectable
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Offline jkinatl2

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #23 on: October 20, 2008, 11:52:21 PM »
What action do you plan to take against the people who choose to have unprotected sex with this man or others like him? Surely they risk infecting others as well.
"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

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Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #24 on: October 21, 2008, 12:07:23 AM »
What action do you plan to take against the people who choose to have unprotected sex with this man or others like him? Surely they risk infecting others as well.

Ah, that does throw a wrench in the crusade doesn't it?
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Offline emeraldize

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #25 on: October 21, 2008, 07:30:26 AM »
As far as reporting him knowing his name I did give it to the dept of health if its his real name they said they would deal with it I will check back with them in a few days to see that something was done to discurage this guy from his practices.

RayRay
If the health department does what they deem appropriate and, within important legal bounds, be advised they will not tell you what they did. They are not beholding to you as informer to tell you anything nor are you entitled to such information. And, if the scenario were reversed, you would want the same protections of the law.
Em

Offline Rayray

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #26 on: October 21, 2008, 11:39:02 AM »
I didn't intentionally set out to find this guy.I was trying to find people in my are who were dealing with similar situations that wanted to get together to talk about our concerns and share our triumps.This guy told me about what he was doing and I didnt think it was right for him to be doing it, Not that it is even my call whats right or wrong, But I have done what I think I can to do,with my part in makeing others aware.I am not on a witch hunt and really dont want to deal with people like this, However if they happen across my path I will stand up for the rest of us and others.

As far as the health dept I know they will not give me any information but I will still call back to insure that they are aware of this situation.You know how things some times get over looked,Just want to be sure this isn't one of those times.
Tested feb 2007 neg
Seroconvert 07/2007
Diagnosed w/ Aids-PCP-Mac-Thrush-PN
09/07 CD4 71 Put on zidovudrine, Efarivnz, prednisone,bactrim ds,Z pak,Diflucan,Mepron
10/07 CD4 9 160,000,000  Stopped all pre meds for observations found current ID. started on Atripila for two weeks end due to sustiva allergy
11/07 CD4 4 VL-1600,000start Norvir-Truvada-Reytaz
12/07 CD4 83 VL-1600,000
02/08 CD4 488 VL- 4100
05/08 CD4 514 VL- 4200
07/08 CD4 434 VL- <400
10/08 Cd4 531 VL-Undetectable
10/16/2008 cd4 393 VL-undetectable
01/29/2009 cd4 419 VL-undetectable
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Offline jkinatl2

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #27 on: October 21, 2008, 11:58:01 AM »
To engage in unprotected sex, particularly with a stranger one meets off of Craigslist, is to consent to the possibility of being infected with an STD, including HIV.

IMHO, the responsibility goes both ways. And I am vehemently against the criminalization of HIV insofar as consensual sex is concerned.

"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

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Offline RapidRod

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #28 on: October 21, 2008, 12:13:42 PM »
There is a big difference in having unprotected sex with someone that does not know that they are infected than it is to have someone that is positive and knows it to be spreading the disease around.

Offline dixieman

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #29 on: October 21, 2008, 12:21:39 PM »
I've known several people through the years who stated"They were going to give it to as many people as possible" most are deceased now... but, there are a few still around that have no conscious... There will always be people like this...

Offline jkinatl2

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #30 on: October 21, 2008, 12:32:34 PM »
There is a big difference in having unprotected sex with someone that does not know that they are infected than it is to have someone that is positive and knows it to be spreading the disease around.

One cannot "spread around" a disease that can be easily prevented with the use of condoms.

I respectfully disagree with your assertion that there are "tiers" of HIV infections.

An HIV Negative person who wants to stay that way will use condoms for penetrative sex outside of a mutually monogamous relationship with another negative person. Period.

And when these "innocent victims" themselves become infected by this "monster," one would imagine they would consider themselves to be negative as well, and also engage in unprotected sex, therefore spreading HIv as well.

I cannot imagine a person who would bareback from a craigslist encounter would also be diligent when it comes to regular testing.

HIV does not discriminate.

"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

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Offline Basquo

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #31 on: October 21, 2008, 12:32:46 PM »
I cringe when I see the ads on craigslist that say "Watch out for this guy, he has HIV," because I think it adds to the stigma for everybody who's poz. And you don't know what the poster's true intentions are, or even if it's true that the subject has HIV and is intent on spreading it around.

8 years ago, I was plenty mad for letting myself get infected but I didn't try to redeem myself by "turning in" the person who infected me or anyone else. To me, it would seem that I was trying to tell the world "I let my guard down, and I let myself get HIV, and someone's goin' down!" And when I looked in the mirror I would a bitter person.  I don't want to be a bitter person.

Offline RapidRod

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #32 on: October 21, 2008, 12:44:57 PM »
One cannot "spread around" a disease that can be easily prevented with the use of condoms.

I respectfully disagree with your assertion that there are "tiers" of HIV infections.

An HIV Negative person who wants to stay that way will use condoms for penetrative sex outside of a mutually monogamous relationship with another negative person. Period.

And when these "innocent victims" themselves become infected by this "monster," one would imagine they would consider themselves to be negative as well, and also engage in unprotected sex, therefore spreading HIv as well.

I cannot imagine a person who would bareback from a craigslist encounter would also be diligent when it comes to regular testing.

HIV does not discriminate.



If the person that has HIV would have used a condom because he KNEW he was infected then he wouldn't be spreading it to others. If he would have advised the other person then the other person would have had the choice not to have sex with him/her.  It does discriminate when a known HIV carrier doesn't used condoms or doesn't disclose.

Offline jkinatl2

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #33 on: October 21, 2008, 01:09:32 PM »
Quote
It does discriminate when a known HIV carrier doesn't used condoms or doesn't disclose.

So the negative person has no say in the matter?

Don't get me wrong, I am all for informed consent. But this goes to that ridiculous thread about HIV negative serosorting. Its simply not possible.

An HIV negative person has everything (viral) to lose in this matter. When does personal responsibility for what goes into your body come into play? Are these "victims" unconscious? Are they impaired mentally or physically? Are they unable to consent to unprotected sex?

Or are they on Craigslist, looking to get off with a stranger who tells them they are negative. And are making life-changing decisions based on the word of a total stranger? It boggles the mind that the negative person gets zero credit for having a choice in the matter.

I am on record as being pro-disclosure. But I am also about personal responsibility.

There is a stoplight near where I live. And on many occasions, people run that light, full tilt. Granted, it is an awkwardly placed light, but it exists. And on nore than one occasion, I have been slowly accelerating into that green light when a car barreled through without the slightest sign of slowing. Legally, morally, I would be in the right had I been hit.

Fat lot of good such righteousness would do me, were I paralyzed or dead. It is still incumbent upon me to be vigilant.

To consent to unprotected sex, as ANN says in her AM I INFECTED forum, is to consent to the possibility of acquiring an STD, including HIV. If you disagree with that, it might be a good idea to rethink your participation in that forum, as it directly contradicts the statements you have made here.

"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

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Offline RapidRod

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #34 on: October 21, 2008, 01:26:44 PM »
Quote
To consent to unprotected sex, as ANN says in her AM I INFECTED forum, is to consent to the possibility of acquiring an STD, including HIV. If you disagree with that, it might be a good idea to rethink your participation in that forum, as it directly contradicts the statements you have made here.

No it doesn't contradict my statements here. It takes only one person to prevent HIV transmission and that you being HIV+ and more knowledgeable are more responsible to help prevent HIV transmission. Had YOU insisted on using a condom or abstained from sex because you knew you were positive wouldn't put anyone at risk, but not to disclose and to not use condoms says that you don’t care that you could possible transmit HIV to someone else. Take some responsibility for your actions instead of saying it takes two.

Offline skeebo1969

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #35 on: October 21, 2008, 01:34:14 PM »
So the negative person has no say in the matter?

Don't get me wrong, I am all for informed consent. But this goes to that ridiculous thread about HIV negative serosorting. Its simply not possible.

An HIV negative person has everything (viral) to lose in this matter. When does personal responsibility for what goes into your body come into play? Are these "victims" unconscious? Are they impaired mentally or physically? Are they unable to consent to unprotected sex?

Or are they on Craigslist, looking to get off with a stranger who tells them they are negative. And are making life-changing decisions based on the word of a total stranger? It boggles the mind that the negative person gets zero credit for having a choice in the matter.

I am on record as being pro-disclosure. But I am also about personal responsibility.

There is a stoplight near where I live. And on many occasions, people run that light, full tilt. Granted, it is an awkwardly placed light, but it exists. And on nore than one occasion, I have been slowly accelerating into that green light when a car barreled through without the slightest sign of slowing. Legally, morally, I would be in the right had I been hit.

Fat lot of good such righteousness would do me, were I paralyzed or dead. It is still incumbent upon me to be vigilant.

To consent to unprotected sex, as ANN says in her AM I INFECTED forum, is to consent to the possibility of acquiring an STD, including HIV. If you disagree with that, it might be a good idea to rethink your participation in that forum, as it directly contradicts the statements you have made here.



   Very well said and very applicable if this situation were a newly infected person saying how angry he was about being infected or perhaps some guy in the news who was being jailed for infecting his lover, but that is not the case here.

   This man, as the OP has stated, is making it his duty to spread the virus and he is KNOWINGLY doing so.  I agree with Basquo that this helps add to the stigma that people like me are just plain dirty, perhaps I got what I deserved because I am evil.  Stories like this do and will have a negative effect on peoples understanding of us pozzies.

   Talking to some people I almost get the impression they think, you didn't care about yourself so you must not care about anyone else.  I think people like this guy on CL support this thinking.

   Jon, I agree with you, the negative person does have a say in the matter.  Like you stated it is a person's responsibility if they want to stay negative, but should this person who is positive have liberties to freely expose others?  Should he do so with no consequence?   I mean that is what this thread is ultimately about...
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Offline Peter Staley

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #36 on: October 21, 2008, 01:49:14 PM »
I know I'm going to catch all shit for this, but I personally don't believe the criminalization of HIV transmission is a black & white issue (for it or against it).  There's no doubting that it has gotten way out of hand in certain jurisdictions.  For instance,  I recoil when I see prosecutions of folks where transmission has not and CAN NOT occur (like spitting).

That said, I think someone who knowingly and intentionally infects another person should be subject to some sort of legal punishment.

There, I said it.  Bring it on.

Offline skeebo1969

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #37 on: October 21, 2008, 01:54:12 PM »


There, I said it.  Bring it on.

  Hell NO!!!  I just got back...lol ;)
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Offline jkinatl2

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #38 on: October 21, 2008, 02:19:33 PM »
I know I'm going to catch all shit for this, but I personally don't believe the criminalization of HIV transmission is a black & white issue (for it or against it).  There's no doubting that it has gotten way out of hand in certain jurisdictions.  For instance,  I recoil when I see prosecutions of folks where transmission has not and CAN NOT occur (like spitting).

That said, I think someone who knowingly and intentionally infects another person should be subject to some sort of legal punishment.

There, I said it.  Bring it on.

But how does one establish a legal burden of proof? IN intimate circumstances, it is often one person's word over another.

Also, does HIV infection have to be accomplished in order for the law to apply? In many states, this is not the case. As a matter of fact, in California, all that is necessary for an indictment is that the person had "reasonable suspicion" that his/her acts might have placed him/her in jeopardy, regardless of whether s/he was tested, a case that was made when a wife prosecuted a husband for having unprotected sex with prostitutes as well as her.

Moreover, transmission vectors so far as the court system are concerned are roughly ten years behind the science and epidemiology. Spitting, you mentioned. Insertive oral, cunnilingus, are also considered "infectious" acts according to most state laws in the USA.

Until and unless the legal system comes up to date with transmission vectors, and until the stigma of HIV positivity is such that a mere accusation is not a media event (as well as a life destroying one) I cannot conceive of an HIV criminalization policy that would be anything short of draconian, and do anything whatsoever to alleviate the stigma which still pervades our society.

Insofar as using HIV laws in order to hold someone while other, more serious charges (such as rape) are brought about, I am reminded that this was the very justification for retaining laws against sodomy in the US until a few years ago.

For someone to intentionally spread HIV is indeed monstrous.

For someone to intentionally place themselves at risk for HIV is..... what, exactly?

Surely there are other laws to punish those who infect others with malice or disregard for human life. Aggravated assault, for example, which carries it's own burden of proof. But for laws currently in effect, where infection does not even need to take place for an arrest, trial, and conviction to be made (such as here in GA), the laws which target HIV infection are simple stigma, made legal.

Completely absolving the negative party for a consensual act is, in my humble opinion, one of the cornerstones of the failure of HIV prevention.

"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

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Offline Peter Staley

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #39 on: October 21, 2008, 02:30:21 PM »
Completely absolving the negative party for a consensual act is, in my humble opinion, one of the cornerstones of the failure of HIV prevention.

There's a difference, though.  The negative party can be accused of stupidity, and being a party to harming themself.  But the positive party who knowingly, deceptively, and intentionally infects the negative party should be accused of a crime, because they intentionally hurt someone else.

Are you also willing to say that the girl who wears sexy clothing down a dark city street is partly to blame for being raped?  Even if one thinks her stupid for putting herself in danger, does that mean the rapist should get off scott free?

Offline Assurbanipal

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #40 on: October 21, 2008, 02:40:47 PM »
Peter

This case appears to be about knowingly and recklessly exposing rather than knowingly and intentionally infecting.  Do you have the same view for both situations?

I'm with you on intentional infection, but this seems a bit different.

Assurbanipal
« Last Edit: October 21, 2008, 02:43:44 PM by Assurbanipal »
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Offline Basquo

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #41 on: October 21, 2008, 02:41:14 PM »

   This man, as the OP has stated, is making it his duty to spread the virus and he is KNOWINGLY doing so.  I agree with Basquo that this helps add to the stigma that people like me are just plain dirty, perhaps I got what I deserved because I am evil.  Stories like this do and will have a negative effect on peoples understanding of us pozzies.


I want to clarify that I was referring to the retalitory posts on craigslist, the ones that warn people to stay away from someone because they have (supposedly) HIV.

Offline Moffie65

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #42 on: October 21, 2008, 02:44:11 PM »
I am going to say something here that will surely piss someone off, but I have the thought after reading this thread, so here goes.

We are responsible for HIV infections of the ignoant.  

I say that because we are the ones that are totally responsible for the Stigma that encourages ignorance by living in our protective closets.

If we were all to come out of our HIV closets, the world would by necesity, finally be driven to education, and therefore help keep people like the OP's neighbor from subjecting themselves to becoming infected.  

Maybe this kind of reasoning is totally shit, but from my 25 years experience; nobody who has used protection, and only had intercourse with protection has ever become HIV+.  Therefore it seems only obvious that the HIV- person is totally responsible for their own health.  

Those who have been raped are obviously not responsible, but there are rape laws to accomidate this part of the story.
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Offline Peter Staley

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #43 on: October 21, 2008, 02:47:30 PM »
Peter

This case appears to be about knowingly and recklessly exposing rather than knowingly and intentionally infecting.  Do you have the same view for both situations?

I'm with you on intentional infection, but this seems a bit different.

Assurabanipal

Again, each case is different -- that's why we have courts.  But I think both of these could be (should be?) criminal, although not the same.  They go to motive, right?  And there are different criminal charges depending on motive -- courts have to grapple with that all the time.  Just like the difference between manslaughter (recklessness) and murder (intentional), and the various degrees of murder, which all have to do with motive and circumstance.

Peter

Offline Assurbanipal

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #44 on: October 21, 2008, 03:21:58 PM »
 They go to motive, right?  And there are different criminal charges depending on motive -- courts have to grapple with that all the time.  Just like the difference between manslaughter (recklessness) and murder (intentional), and the various degrees of murder, which all have to do with motive and circumstance.

Peter


Intent vs reckless is about motive.

But there is also the issue of exposure vs actual infection.

To use the manslaughter / murder analogy assumes that an infection actually takes place -- in this case the analogy would be a prosecution for reckless endangerment which I think s pretty rare when applied to the endangerment of adults (who are assumed to be able to take steps to avoid risks).
5/06 VL 1M+, CD4 22, 5% , pneumonia, thrush -- O2 support 2 months, 6/06 +Kaletra/Truvada
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Offline newt

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #45 on: October 21, 2008, 04:23:15 PM »
To be honest, much of the moral discourse above leaves me unmoved,

The practical point is perhaps (Rayray) is there a way for you to have real life discussions with the guy in your building to take steps to protect himself, or enlist someone else to do this?

Moffie makes a good point about stigma creating outsiders, but while LAWS and THE MEDIA and PEOPLE go on treating people with HIV like outsiders, not to mention us queers etc, some is gonna behave like outsiders.

I just point out: if said bloke whose morals are being discussed went out with (1) 'flu, it would be nothing to most people, even though 'flu kills many, many people (and is widely contagious) (2) TB, it would be, nearly everywhere, a public health not a criminal matter (also contagious).

And: how bout stopping Philip Morris selling cigarettes and MacDonalds burgers?

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Offline RapidRod

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #46 on: October 21, 2008, 04:29:15 PM »
He didn't go out to spread the flu, TB or anything else. He knowingly went out with the intention of spreading HIV. BIG DIFFERENCE.

Offline skeebo1969

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #47 on: October 21, 2008, 04:34:29 PM »
I want to clarify that I was referring to the retalitory posts on craigslist, the ones that warn people to stay away from someone because they have (supposedly) HIV.

  Sorry for my confusion Basquo.  I meant to reference someone else's post.
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Offline jkinatl2

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #48 on: October 21, 2008, 06:05:23 PM »
Quote
Are you also willing to say that the girl who wears sexy clothing down a dark city street is partly to blame for being raped?  Even if one thinks her stupid for putting herself in danger, does that mean the rapist should get off scott free?

Um, that is not only a fallacious strawman argument, but it borders on flamebaiting. Can I report you to you?

:)

Equating consensual sexual acts between adults and rape is not the sort of argument I expected here.

Now, if you want to make the argument that the negative persons were of diminished capacity, it would be more sound. Then again, it would also make the sex less consensual. If indeed there are levels of consent.

I repeat, and shall continue to repeat, that to consent to unprotected sex with a partner of unknown status is to consent to the possibility of acquiring an STD, including HIV.  That's simply my position insofar as consensual sexual activity is concerned, period.

Seriously, that rape analogy was pretty offensive. I guess I was asking for it, wearing this skimpy computer and walking down a dark thread.



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Offline mecch

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #49 on: October 21, 2008, 06:11:16 PM »
I cringe when I see the ads on craigslist that say "Watch out for this guy, he has HIV," because I think it adds to the stigma for everybody who's poz. And you don't know what the poster's true intentions are, or even if it's true that the subject has HIV and is intent on spreading it around.

Yeah i agree with this.  Thats what I said in my post, too. Its just too difficult to know whats really happening in the supposed hook ups of the supposed "Typhoid Mary"s. Seems to smear us all, though obviously it would be better if we could all ensure that everyone is responsible about safer sex.

That said, why is it that I keep hearing these horror stories about people who intentionally infect, and have a hard time believing it?   When it seems to happen quite a bit.  I don't want to believe the truth.

Did you see that the trial is happening now for the Dutch guys who were intentionally infecting?
http://news.smh.com.au/world/dutch-hiv-sex-party-accused-on-trial-20081016-51or.html

I don't want to believe it, 'cause its too scarey....

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Offline fearless

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #50 on: October 21, 2008, 06:57:33 PM »
I know I'm going to catch all shit for this, but I personally don't believe the criminalization of HIV transmission is a black & white issue (for it or against it).  There's no doubting that it has gotten way out of hand in certain jurisdictions.  For instance,  I recoil when I see prosecutions of folks where transmission has not and CAN NOT occur (like spitting).

That said, I think someone who knowingly and intentionally infects another person should be subject to some sort of legal punishment.

There, I said it.  Bring it on.

This appears a little at odds with your statements in other threads that this is just a virus.
I vehemenlty oppose the criminilazation of HIV, in all cases. And, I would never ever out anyone to the authorities for doing so, just like I don't out my drug dealers, friends who take drugs or drive without seat belts, or speed. Personally, I think outing anybody is an incredibly low act.
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Offline Assurbanipal

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #51 on: October 21, 2008, 07:19:58 PM »
He didn't go out to spread the flu, TB or anything else. He knowingly went out with the intention of spreading HIV. BIG DIFFERENCE.

Except that he didn't.  He went out with the intention of having sex knowing he was infected.  That is simply not the same thing as intending to infect people with HIV.  "BIG DIFFERENCE"

Just like going out shopping (or even going on an international flight as happened in one highly publicized example) when you know you have drug resistant TB is not the same as intending to infect others with TB.

There's differences between ignorance, recklessness and malice.  By saying that he intended to spread HIV you and the OP have characterized this man's actions as malicious -- but they may actually be ignorant or reckless.  It would only be automatically a malicious act if transmission were assured with every sex act.  And by characterizing the act as malicious you automatically lean toward making it an issue for law enforcement -- if it were ignorance, as Newt pointed out, it would clearly be an issue of public health.   And as the example of drug resistant TB shows, for other diseases, the behaviour has to be extremely reckless before it is no longer a matter of public health and becomes a matter of law enforcement.

You know, when I pressed Peter for where he would draw the line, I was just curious and had no idea where to draw it myself.  But, as usual, Newt has made everything clear for me: malicious intent should be criminalized, but ignorant or reckless behaviour should only be criminal to the extent that other potentially harmful diseases (TB, HPV, etc. ) are similarly treated

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8/09  new regimen Isentress/Epzicom 9/09 VL UD CD4 621 32.7% 11/09 VL UD CD4 607 26.4% swap Isentress for Prezista/Norvir 12/09 (liver and muscle issues) VL 50
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Offline mecch

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #52 on: October 21, 2008, 07:35:01 PM »
Haven't we discussed these issues in anothe recent thread, about the horrors of prosecution for "transmission" in some states - where there has been no transmission, just non disclosure.

Well since this thread has gone off on a tangent by hitting some kind of raw nerves.....

Sex is about more than legally and morally agreed upon risks or nonrisks.

If someone KNOWS they are poz, and are asked, and lie, and then transmits HIV, under any circumstances, accidental, or maliciously, it seems to warrent at least a civil trial, if not a criminal trial.  If the negative wants to pursue such a thing. 

Saying the negative who becomes positive in such a circumstance is "stupid", or "foolish" or "irresponsible" is somewhat blaming a victim.  Maybe irresponsible.  But the formerly negative was given NO choice to say no thanks... What ever happened to trust?  Passion??  If asked, positives should NOT lie.  If they lie, AND get away with it, (no transmission), then there is no crime.  If they lie, and transmit, tough shit, they lose. If the formerly negative wants to pursue it legally, and the state/nation allows it, I'm all for it. 

But all that is not practicable, because how to prove someone lied in the negotiation!!  Oh rot.

If the positive is not asked, but also does not disclose, and transmits, hmmm.  I'd still go with civil offense - he/she has inflicted harm...

Again, how to prove....

These discussions are getting awfully fine tuned, morally....

"What's the frequency, Kenneth"......
« Last Edit: October 21, 2008, 07:44:04 PM by mecch »
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Offline mecch

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #53 on: October 21, 2008, 07:40:47 PM »
There's differences between ignorance, recklessness and malice.  By saying that he intended to spread HIV you and the OP have characterized this man's actions as malicious -- but they may actually be ignorant or reckless.

Here here, the voice of reason. Thats why i was questioning the OP at the beginning of the thread - it sounds like the potential for vigilanteeism or as other said, a witch hunt...

But still it was nice that the OP was concerned, and thoughtful enough to try to figure out the correct response. Much appreciated.
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Offline Rayray

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #54 on: October 21, 2008, 08:22:27 PM »
I just want to be sure to thank everyone for there input on this matter.I have done everything that I think I can to make sure my neighbor does the correct things to protect himself and his future sex partners.
As for the guy who likes to post for sex on craigslist. I never posted his name or pointed him out directly.

My post said this in its wording.

Craigslist reponders please be aware that there are std's and hiv out there please be sure to help stop the transmission of these dreadful health hazards. PLEASE be responsible and wear a condom everytime you are sexually involved with anyone on this and any other site.Its cheaper to buy condoms then to pay for medications for the rest of your life.Keep yourself healthy,Be responsible.

I then posted a picture of my body not showing my private area or face and said You never know who has an std or hiv.I'm not a model but I do have a very healthy looking body so I've been told. Very hot or so I've been told.I have a husband so I dont really pay much attention to what is said .My point being everyone looks the same from the outside but can be completely different on the inside.STD"S and HIV do not dicriminate.

I was infected by my bf of 5 years soon to be husband who is in treatment for iv drug use.I'm not mad at him for my infection and I'm not out to hurt others that are hiv poz. I choose not to protect myself and can't blame anyone for my not being reponsible.I will however be the voice of reason and do anything I can to help protect others from contracting an std or hiv because of not wearing protection. As I said in prior post I'm not on a witch hunt.
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Offline Basquo

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #55 on: October 21, 2008, 09:26:11 PM »
Rayray, thanks for clarifying what you posted on craigslist.  I do NOT cringe when I see posts like that.  I thought you had pointed out the guy.

Also, I realized today that I am passive-aggressive.  I'll work on that.

 :)

Offline bocker3

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #56 on: October 21, 2008, 09:48:46 PM »
So, it seems to me that this isn't an "all or nothing" situation -- meaning it's not all one person's "fault" or the other's "fault".  The negative person should absolutely be taking responsibility for their health.  If they have condomless sex and end up infected, they are are certainly at "fault".  However, the poz person ALSO has some blame here and it wrong to absolve him of it, simply because someone was willing to have unsafe sex with them.  If you KNOW that you have a potentially lethal virus that could be passed on, it is morally and (and in many jurisdictions) legally incumbent on you to take all reasonable precautions from spreading it.  I can not imagine myself ever having condomless sex with a negative man or a man of unknown status -- PERIOD.  There is a difference in NOT knowing you are poz and KNOWING you are poz.
People are very passionate in this thread about personal responsibility - and I think that they are absolutely correct.  The personal responsibility runs to BOTH parties however. 
I agree that the rape comparison isn't necessarily the best choice, but let's choose this one:

A sober person gets in the car with a drunk guy.  The drunk guy has an accident and seriously injures his passenger.  Are we saying the drunk should get off scot free??  That the sober should have known better than to get in the car with him?  I will agree that the sober guy was nuts, stupid, whatever other word you'd like to use, but the drunk still should be prosecuted.

Now, to touch on the treating HIV different from other diseases probably isn't right either.  The laws are definitely too extreme -- we don't see people being charged with attempted murder for passing on HPV (which can cause cervical and kill just as easily as HIV can).  So, I agree that some sanity needs to be used in these laws -- and I don't see sanity coming to light given the stigma.  Therefore -- this is a tough area.  However, we can not and should not give a Poz person license to bareback with anyone "stupid" enough to let him.  Again -- personal responsibility lies with BOTH partners.
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Offline denb45

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #57 on: October 21, 2008, 09:59:23 PM »
i met a guy on poz.com that lives within five miles of me and he tells me he posts adds on craigslist to get guys to come to him and have unprotected sex.Or at times he goes to there houses which is why i'm writing.This guy was in my apt building with one of my neihbors. Now this guy who lives in my building is a bit older than myself but he is kinda slow if you know what i mean.But he is a very nice guy and i know he had this guy over and know what the two of them did because he told me one day as I was walking my dog about this guy he had met. I talk openly about being gay and live with my partner of five years who also is poz.But its killing me to tell this guy about what I have learned but cant decide if its any of my bussiness or not to report him for being so careless. Anyone have any input i could use it.Thanks

Ray, you can report this guy to your City/County Dept. of Public Health, if you have enough info about his where-abouts, and they will contact him, you can also remain anonymous , in most States, it is against the law ( a Felony) to knowingly infect someone with HIV & AIDS and if arrested and the victim testifies against the person who (had sex with them) , it doesn't matter if the victim ever comes down with HIV and the punishment is 5 to 10 yrs in State-Prison  it's called "assault with a deadly weapon" ??? there are a few cases in some States, and I do remember an article in POZ-MAG a few yrs. back, in NEW YORK STATE where this happened, and the person is still in prison  :)
« Last Edit: October 21, 2008, 10:12:42 PM by denb45 »
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Offline Ann

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #58 on: October 22, 2008, 06:51:32 AM »
I can't help but feel that someone who knowingly has unprotected anal or vaginal intercourse with someone of unknown hiv status - and then prosecutes for hiv - should also be prosecuted themselves.

How's that for shared responsibility?

To agree to have unprotected intercourse is to consent to the possibility of being infected with an STI. Sex with a condom lasts only a matter of minutes, but hiv is forever.

Ann
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Offline RapidRod

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #59 on: October 22, 2008, 09:22:22 AM »
I can't help but feel that someone who knowingly has unprotected anal or vaginal intercourse with someone of unknown hiv status - and then prosecutes for hiv - should also be prosecuted themselves.

How's that for shared responsibility?

To agree to have unprotected intercourse is to consent to the possibility of being infected with an STI. Sex with a condom lasts only a matter of minutes, but hiv is forever.

Ann


"It will be a shared responsibility", a newly infected person will now be going on living a life with HIV and the low life that "knowingly infected" them will sit in prison.

Offline skeebo1969

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #60 on: October 22, 2008, 09:25:40 AM »

     This thread has pretty much gone the way  most threads about this topic turn.  Basically we come to the conclusion that the person infecting has less of a responsibility of keeping anther's  negative status than the person who is negative.

     I agree with that.

     The analogies used in this thread are usually the same ones used in all threads about this topic:

     If I have a gun doesn't give me the right to use it....  etc., etc....

     If a person is drunk is it OK to drive and possibly kill.... etc., etc....

     Driving without seatbelts puts you at risk... etc., etc....

     Most of these discussions generally stem from some criminal case we read in the paper or on the internet.  But here in this instance we have a few different circumstances.   He knows both people, thus putting a face to this issue for him sort of speak.  

     It makes me think of that saying, Am I my brother's keeper?  Of course this elicits some sort of prudence and I think it's something we all face no matter how small an issue it is, like when we tell the lady in front of us at the checkout counter that she dropped a quarter.  Does she really need it or do we do so because we would feel guilty if we didn't?

     If this topic was on a more personal level would our feelings change?  If it was his younger brother possibly getting infected by say, RayRay's friend...  or something similar would we be more inclined to get involved?  If so why?

    We were all there at one point, making a decision that dealt a lasting consequence.  A great deal of us knew the risks and still made a choice while knowing HIV/AIDS existed.  I would also go so far as saying most of us gained a lot of our knowledge on it after we were diagnosed.  We were foolish, possibly ignorant by choice.   Now we sit here knowing what we know   with our diplomas(diagnosis) in hand and choose to sit aside because we feel this guy should know to protect himself.

    Like I said before RayRay knows both these people, yes he may not know them on a personal level but he sees an actual face, not a picture of some  man/woman in the news paper; whom he doesn't know.  

    Personally I would be pissed if I knew a friend was out there with intent to infect others or didn't care  if he did.  I would be equally pissed at a negative friend  as well, but of course this anger would stem from knowing only what I know now.  Should I tell?

     We use the term "Hero" here in the forums for people who have paved a path either by educating others or simply by living with this disease and sharing their knowledge.  Where's the line in the sand start and end though?  What is the limit of educating someone in need whether it be giving someone  a simple heads up sort of speak...

     It really has me wondering....  Am I my brother's keeper?
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Offline Moffie65

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #61 on: October 22, 2008, 09:50:50 AM »
To agree to have unprotected intercourse is to consent to the possibility of being infected with an STI. Sex with a condom lasts only a matter of minutes, but hiv is forever.

Ann


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Offline madbrain

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #62 on: October 22, 2008, 07:45:21 PM »
Peter,


That said, I think someone who knowingly and intentionally infects another person should be subject to some sort of legal punishment.


I am with you on that one - someone who knows his HIV status, lies about it, and insists on having unprotected sex with others should not be able to keep doing so. However even if a legal statute against doing that existed, it would be a fairly difficult one to enforce.

Offline hotpuppy

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #63 on: October 23, 2008, 01:35:48 AM »
Wow, what an interesting and long thread.

1. Rayray.  Congrats on doing what was morally difficult but right to do.  It's often hard to do what is right because others do not often do what is the right thing when there is no obvious reward.

2. I have from time to time posted on craigslist "how not to catch HIV" in my area.  I am simply appalled at all the people asking for high risk sex.  There was an article on poz.com that talked about 25% of guys not knowing and 17% simply lying about HIV status.  damn if I can find it since I read it, but it's a good article.

3. While I'm not religious, I think sometimes there is a lesson to be learned.  What comes to mind is the phrase "let he who is without sin cast the first stone."  I agree with the concept of individual responsibility and also agree that there has to be a line drawn around typhoid Mikeys. (or marys).  I have known of individuals who deliberately were trying to infect others.  In one instance I stopped a friend from being victimized.  funny thing was the friend wanted to believe the guy that he was neg and it took me a bit to convince him.  This was before I was poz, and I know some might disagree, but regardless we have a moral obligation to protect our friends and neighbors.  We also have an obligation to respect one another.

4. Lastly, I was infected by someone who lied to me about their HIV status.  Yes, it's still my fault for engaging in unprotected sex with them.  Yes, you can damn me if you dare. Yes, it involved the internet.  I accept responsibility for my actions.  I also find that this is personally a dear issue to me.  I find comfort in my belief that Karma is one heck of a banker and that you should aspire to make deposits not withdrawals, and avoid overdrawing your karmic account.  At the end of the day no amount of being mad, blame, or hatred will change my HIV status or make a meaningful difference in my life.  I choose to focus my energy on what I can change and on the future.  I encourage you to do the same.   

One of the most confounding things I have encountered in life is when I know something but know that I cannot change someone's behavior.  HIV has brought me to this repeatedly.  I KNOW that the behavior I see at Club Houston, on Craigslist, on Manhunt, on Gay.com that some people behave in will lead to them becoming HIV Poz.  I also know that they don't want to hear it and are hostile to any assistance.  Long ago I was told to divide the problems I saw into those I had the power to fix and those I didn't.  It's a small step with great potential to let you focus on what you can do.  It's also a great way of letting go of things you can't change that annoy the heck out of you.
Don't obsess over the wrong things.  Life isn't about your numbers, it isn't about this forum, it isn't about someone's opinion.  It's about getting out there and enjoying it.   I am a person with HIV - not the other way around.

Offline madbrain

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #64 on: October 23, 2008, 08:50:26 PM »
hotpuppy,

2. I have from time to time posted on craigslist "how not to catch HIV" in my area.  I am simply appalled at all the people asking for high risk sex.  There was an article on poz.com that talked about 25% of guys not knowing and 17% simply lying about HIV status.  damn if I can find it since I read it, but it's a good article.

It's here : http://www.aidsmeds.com/articles/hiv_disclosure_sex_1667_15268.shtml . I have it bookmarked :). I have posted the link to some of my own cl ads in which I advertise my poz status.

Other times when I have gotten rejected after disclosing, I have also sent that link and wished people good luck in finding partners that are truly neg.

I don't know that it's changed anybody's mind so far, but at least it has raised some awareness.

Offline LordBerners

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #65 on: October 24, 2008, 05:02:06 AM »
I suppose I'll chime in - since so many have it seems acceptable to do so.

Of course I do not support any form of State prosecution of anyone for these consensual sex acts.  It seems unreasonable, impractical, and bigoted - based far more on vindictiveness and condemnation of certain lifestyles than any interest in implementing epidemiologically effective public policy. 

Prosecuting a few will not change the overall state of hiv or transmission in society to any significant degree (most transmissions occur, as we all know, between parties who are both ignorant of their status).  And after all this sort of persecution is just the sort of thing which dissuades people from getting tested in the first place - and testing is a far more effective way of fighting hiv in the population.

Lastly in a philosophical (though unfortunately not legal) sense it seems clear to me that the party who was 'placed at risk' or 'contracted hiv' from any such sex is entirely responsible for this, as he or she could simply have declined to participate.

On a more personal note, to Rayray.. this is not a criticism (to each his own), but in a situation like the one you describe, I would probably be inclined to mind my own business.  :) 
« Last Edit: October 24, 2008, 05:05:49 AM by LordBerners »
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Offline emeraldize

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #66 on: October 24, 2008, 07:54:27 AM »
I know I'm going to catch all shit for this, but I personally don't believe the criminalization of HIV transmission is a black & white issue (for it or against it).  There's no doubting that it has gotten way out of hand in certain jurisdictions.  For instance,  I recoil when I see prosecutions of folks where transmission has not and CAN NOT occur (like spitting).

That said, I think someone who knowingly and intentionally infects another person should be subject to some sort of legal punishment.
There, I said it.  Bring it on.

I agree. And, wish the CDC and other entities would work a little harder at informing the public about things such as spitting not being a transmission route to help lessen stigmatization and increase education of everyone, particularly all levels of the legal system from the beat cops to the judges.

Offline woodshere

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #67 on: October 24, 2008, 08:09:46 AM »
Of course I do not support any form of State prosecution of anyone for these consensual sex acts.  It seems unreasonable, impractical, and bigoted - based far more on vindictiveness and condemnation of certain lifestyles than any interest in implementing epidemiologically effective public policy. 

I agree and think many transmission laws need to be changed.  However, I cannot imagine any state legislature modernizing their state laws with the amount of stigma and ignorance that is rampant in our society.
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Offline GSOgymrat

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #68 on: October 24, 2008, 10:22:40 AM »
Let's say I decide I'm not getting enough sex when I tell people that I'm HIV+ so I start lying and tell people that I'm HIV-, that I was tested last month or that my wife and I just legally separated, and start having unprotected sex with people. I'm not intending to infect people I'm just trying to have more sex. One of my partners becomes infected and I tell her she should have know better and to take responsibility for her own behavior. I move on and continue having unprotected sex with people. What kind of repercussions should there be or should there be any repercussions?

Offline Ann

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #69 on: October 24, 2008, 10:36:38 AM »
It's one thing to lie and say you're hiv negative, but totally different to then proceed to have unprotected intercourse. If a person were to ask why you're using condoms, you could say that's how you've stayed hiv negative.

For the record, I think it's totally reprehensible for positive people to have unprotected intercourse with people who are negative or of unknown hiv status. Two pozzies together, well, that's their call if they're willing to risk other STIs.

And again, for the record, I think it's totally reprehensible for people who are or assume  they're hiv negative to have unprotected intercourse with people who are of unknown status.

And yes, I was once one of those people. Look where it got me. I would never have dreamed of taking anyone to court over it. I took and still take full responsibility for my own infection. I didn't insist on using condoms. I never said "no glove, no love." Silly me.

I think it's even more reprehensible for people who WILLINGLY have unprotected intercourse and end up hiv positive as a result to then go and prosecute the person they assume gave them their infection. That's what I was getting at when I said "I can't help but feel that someone who knowingly has unprotected anal or vaginal intercourse with someone of unknown hiv status - and then prosecutes for hiv - should also be prosecuted themselves."

Maybe if the person bringing suit against a positive person also faced some sort of legal responsibility for protecting themselves, fewer people would take the risk of having unprotected intercourse with persons of unknown hiv status. That's the ONLY way I can see the legislation of hiv transmission having ANY impact on the growing rates of new infections.

After all, if they can legislate the responsibility where we're concerned, the can legislate responsibility where negative folks are concerned too. It's a two way street. 

edited to correct a glaring boo-boo
« Last Edit: October 24, 2008, 10:40:44 AM by Ann »
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Offline skeebo1969

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #70 on: October 24, 2008, 10:55:02 AM »

   I want to commend RayRay once again for his actions.  I also think it is very admirable for him to actually care.  Judging from some of the comments here a lot of us would not.

  The gentleman, and I use that term loosely, who is HIV+ became so through wreckless sexual practices.  He doesn't have to worry about catching HIV anymore, so I guess he should be rewarded to bare back anyone he chooses.

  Every person here in the forums knows what it is like to receive this virus.  Many of us upon hearing our test results probably regretted our actions which caused us to sero convert, but unless you are one of the LTS here you knew HIV was available for the taking.  Whether our judgement was impaired through drug use/alcohol, hating condoms, whatever does it give us the right to not disclose, to not practice safer sex practices to ensure we don't infect others?

  There are women out there being infected by their husbands.  I guess condoms should be used even in the trusting relationship known as marriage now.

  The general public is aided in their thinking that we are dirty through stories like these.  Dismissing this man's actions is appalling.   As long as we are the minority when it comes to status it is people like him who will help keep the laws against transmission in the books.

  Once again, thanks RayRay for caring.  

  
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Offline jkinatl2

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #71 on: October 24, 2008, 11:48:42 AM »
Skeebo, please direct me to the posts where people were dismissive. I saw nothing of the sort, here.
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Offline Moffie65

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #72 on: October 24, 2008, 11:58:59 AM »

That said, I think someone who knowingly and intentionally infects another person should be subject to some sort of legal punishment.

There, I said it.  Bring it on.

I don't necessarily disagree, but would you kindly create a list of diseases and emotional consequences that might be prosecuted under this vague statement.  Surely the courts would not prosecute if it only covers the damage of HIV infection, becuase that would be constitutionally unenforceable.
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Offline GSOgymrat

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #73 on: October 24, 2008, 12:07:07 PM »
I don't necessarily disagree, but would you kindly create a list of diseases and emotional consequences that might be prosecuted under this vague statement.  Surely the courts would not prosecute if it only covers the damage of HIV infection, becuase that would be constitutionally unenforceable.

Maybe the law could interpret that intentionally exposing someone with a known pathogen (HIV, TB, Hepatitis, Anthrax) is considered assault, either with a deadly or non-deadly weapon and adjust the punishment accordingly. I'm not familiar with how the law reads.

Offline jkinatl2

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #74 on: October 24, 2008, 12:23:07 PM »
As long as the stigma of HIV infection continues, the mere accusation of deliberate infection would have the power to utterly and completely destroy a person's life.

Is it worth the price to catch a handful of predators? Is that what we endorse, the assumption that HIV negative people are presumed to be innocent and HIV positive people are presumed to be predators?

And yes, I do hold the bond between married persons to be a higher and different standard than the casual hookup. As such, it is a strawman argument when presented in this case, which is clearly a person who is having serial casual encounters with no contracts nor expectations other than the word (or lack thereof) of a stranger.

And what of the newly HIV positive person who sleeps with a known HIV positive person and then accuses their partner of infecting him/her? It would stand to reap monetary gain for the "innocent" victim, as well as destroying another human in the process.

There are monsters in this world, and they can be anyone. How do we establish a burden of proof, especially in the absence of multiple, documented infections? I am aware that tests can determine the genetic structure of a newly infected person and compare it to that of an established infection, but such tests are relatively rare, and certainly expensive, and only good for a limited window of time which any decent attorney can cause to pass.

Add to that the astonishing lack of credible HIV transmission knowledge prevalent in the judicial system, and I see criminalization of HIV to be a fundamentally flawed process that will sweep many "innocent" people into a hell from which there is no escape.

I am all for justice. I am totally against vengeance. If people choose to see that as complicity, then I am sorry for the anger and rage that clouds their judgment.



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Offline RapidRod

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #75 on: October 24, 2008, 12:48:43 PM »
Like normal this thread is getting of course. The topic is, "Knowingly Spreading HIV."  And yes those that do it,  should be prosecuted to the fullest.

Offline skeebo1969

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #76 on: October 24, 2008, 12:52:19 PM »
Skeebo, please direct me to the posts where people were dismissive. I saw nothing of the sort, here.

  Ok Jonathan...


On a more personal note, to Rayray.. this is not a criticism (to each his own), but in a situation like the one you describe, I would probably be inclined to mind my own business.  :) 

  Of course we could argue that  minding ones own business can either be dismissive or proactive.  I guess it all depends which side of the fence you are on.  Jonathan I am in agreement with you that people who want to stay negative should take the precautions to do so, but I am also inclined to believe that the people who know their status also know how infectious they are if they bareback.
Not disclosing or lying for that matter is only motivated by one thing, their own personal pleasure of feeling skin on skin.

  
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Offline skeebo1969

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #77 on: October 24, 2008, 01:19:40 PM »



   Sexual education has been a failure since.... well when ever it began, hence decades upon decades of growing trends in teenage pregnancy.  It's failure is nothing new, people are going to ignore the risks regardless if it means having to wake up and feed a baby before school or taking your meds before work.   All I am saying is if you know you are positive and seeking unprotected sex then there should be some ramifications for doing so.  Trust me the negative party will receive their punishment for not using protection.  They will add to our growing positive population and be faced with some of the same issues..  like, well... whether to disclose or use protection on the next person.

  Has to end some where... why not with us?
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Offline jkinatl2

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #78 on: October 24, 2008, 01:22:53 PM »
I see where you stand there, and my imperative towards personal responsibility does work both ways. It is the responsibility of the infected person to AT BEST inform the partners of the direct (not theoretical) risk they take when they bareback.

I see it, however, as a shared responsibility. And in a very real sense, in the worst case scenario, both parties could find their lives utterly altered. Maybe destroyed. One through draconian prison sentencing and the public humiliation, and the other with a virus which must play a role, often a pivotal one, in almost every aspect of his/her life. Social stigma being one part of that.

If the person to whom the OP references is truly a remorseless sociopath, then the OP has several choices. He can confront the sociopath (and this can be potentially dangerous), can alert what authorities exist, can take it upon himself to inform the negative parties (and craigslist), or ignore the situation.

But whatever he does, he had better make damned sure he is right. That the monster in question was not just making idle statements, was indeed doing what he claimed to be doing, was indeed the monster he has been painted to be. Because the accusation, once made, cannot be retracted. And I still question the morality in playing God over another person's life when there is even the faintest possibility of being wrong.

And at the end of the day, is HIV prevention served? As you pointed out, anyone born since 1975 knows about HIV and condoms. Protecting people from their own self-destructive tendencies, or their ignorance, or their stupidity, or their drug/alcohol impaired judgment is full time work.

I agree we have an obligation to society as a whole. But being my brothers keeper... does this mean it is possible to save a person from himself, each and every time, for the entirety of his life? A person who will bareback with someone they meet from CL will, most liekly, do so again, with someone else, inside an internet hookup situation or out.

At AM we offer state of the art HIV information. And even in the midst of our relentlessly puritanical society, the knowledge of condom use and HIV prevention is not at all lost. It is, however, ignored by a large segment of the population. Can we consistently blame the government, or the people who lie, or who do not disclose, for the willful actions of people who have chosen to ignore that message?

What role do the infected play in the prevention of HIV in those who know the risks yet choose to take them? Answering only for myself, I am good to control my behavior. I cannot control that of others. Perhaps I am more jaded than I was ten years ago, when I thought that sacrificing my health, my talents, my time, was worth saving one person for one day. Now, I am far more selfish about my own worth, my time, my words and my actions.

To use a metaphor that has been brought up in this thread, I have taken the keys from friends who were in no condition to drive. And I have had my own keys confiscated. I have called 911 when I have seen a car driving erratically on the road, presenting a clear danger to others. I have stopped when I have seen an accident, to help if I can.

But its exhausting to try to police the world. And when someone makes the choice to expose him/herself to the possibility of HIV infection, I am disinclined to take their life into my hands.

"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

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Offline Ann

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #79 on: October 24, 2008, 01:35:15 PM »


   Sexual education has been a failure since.... well when ever it began, hence decades upon decades of growing trends in teenage pregnancy.  It's failure is nothing new, people are going to ignore the risks regardless if it means having to wake up and feed a baby before school or taking your meds before work.   All I am saying is if you know you are positive and seeking unprotected sex then there should be some ramifications for doing so.  Trust me the negative party will receive their punishment for not using protection.  They will add to our growing positive population and be faced with some of the same issues..  like, well... whether to disclose or use protection on the next person.

  Has to end some where... why not with us?

If sex education is such a failure in general, then why does the Netherlands have one of the LOWEST rates of teen pregnancy in the world? They start relationship education when the kids first enter the school system. It's not sex education that's at fault, but rather the lack of COMPREHENSIVE sex education. Too many places in the States - and elsewhere - teach abstinence only above all else and often to the total exclusion of any other model.

I wrote about this in my blog: http://blogs.poz.com/ann/archives/2008/09/learning_about.html

Personally, I firmly believe that this virus is being spread FAR more commonly by people who only THINK they're hiv negative. You know, the ones who are going around doing the majority of barebacking. I think it's a minority of positive people - those of us who KNOW we're positive - who are recklessly endangering others by barebacking without disclosure or through lies.

I really don't think most of the laws concerning hiv transmission are helping anyone. But as I say, if we can be held accountable, so should the negative/newly seroconverted be held accountable in a court of law. I'm not saying anyone who becomes infected should end up in court, I'm saying the people who take others to court for allegedly infecting them should also face charges. Two way street and all that. Obviously there are exceptions... use your head.

Ann
« Last Edit: October 24, 2008, 01:36:49 PM by Ann »
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Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline skeebo1969

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #80 on: October 24, 2008, 01:37:26 PM »

  Jonathan,

     I totally respect your views and this last post of yours leaves me in nothing but agreement.  Hopefully I will remember this post when the debate comes up again.

   Thank You
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Offline Rayray

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #81 on: October 24, 2008, 01:48:04 PM »


  Has to end some where... why not with us?

I totally agree.

 I dont want to police the world,However If I know of a situation that I could possibly change the outcome of by helping someone to understand the consequences of there actions then by all means I will do everything I can to help them make an informed decision




But whatever he does, he had better make damned sure he is right. That the monster in question was not just making idle statements, was indeed doing what he claimed to be doing, was indeed the monster he has been painted to be. Because the accusation, once made, cannot be retracted. And I still question the morality in playing God over another person's life when there is even the faintest possibility of being wrong.



.

Its not playing God over another person's life in my eye's, I would call it being an educator, As I posted in prior thread I never outed this guy personally naming him. Just put on cl to basically make your own choice but do it with the knowledge that there are ways to protect yourself and others in sexually incounters.
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Offline skeebo1969

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #82 on: October 24, 2008, 02:03:51 PM »
If sex education is such a failure in general, then why does the Netherlands have one of the LOWEST rates of teen pregnancy in the world? They start relationship education when the kids first enter the school system. It's not sex education that's at fault, but rather the lack of COMPREHENSIVE sex education. Too many places in the States - and elsewhere - teach abstinence only above all else and often to the total exclusion of any other model.

  Damn them  people in the Netherlands, they did it solely to prove me wrong! ;)


   
Personally, I firmly believe that this virus is being spread FAR more commonly by people who only THINK they're hiv negative. You know, the ones who are going around doing the majority of barebacking. I think it's a minority of positive people - those of us who KNOW we're positive - who are recklessly endangering others by barebacking without disclosure or through lies.

   OK, but in this instance the guy knows his status and purposely seeks out those to bareback.

  Obviously there are exceptions... use your head.

   You are right and in this instance this would be the exception ;).

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Offline RapidRod

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #83 on: October 24, 2008, 02:07:15 PM »
If one of my HIV+ friends went out to knowingly infect others I wouldn't think twice about turning him/her in.

Offline emeraldize

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #84 on: October 24, 2008, 03:37:36 PM »
I'm not saying anyone who becomes infected should end up in court, I'm saying the people who take others to court for allegedly infecting them should also face charges. Two way street and all that. Obviously there are exceptions... use your head.

Ann


Hi Ann
I want to make sure I'm following you here. (Tried using my head and I'm not certain I'm coming up with the right exceptions. So, I need help.) If it weren't an alleged infection, if it were provable, defensible, then it can be a one-way street?

Offline David_CA

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #85 on: October 24, 2008, 05:19:57 PM »
Perhaps sex education in the Netherlands is first rate, but I doubt anybody posting in this thread is from there.  Instead, most of us live here in the US where we've seen and lived through sex education.  Along with the actual mechanics and biology of sex, I include STD's in sex ed.  Prior to an HIV+ diagnosis, I don't recall much about avoiding HIV except for celibacy or using a condom.  I don't remember ever knowing how low-risk oral sex is.  I recently asked a friend about her kids' HIV knowledge (they graduated from high school 2 & 4 years ago).  She asked them and said it was minimal, at best.  To me, it's just as important to know what is safe as what's not safe.  That way I can consider what risks I'm willing to take fully informed.  To think that spit, as well as sucking a dick, is just as risky as letting a guy top bare back is the result of poor HIV knowledge.  The fact that so many people do think this indicates poor HIV education and perpetuates ongoing stigma. 
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Offline newt

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #86 on: October 24, 2008, 06:15:50 PM »
Quote
I firmly believe that this virus is being spread FAR more commonly by people who only THINK they're hiv negative.

Ann, the science is, sadly, very much in your favour.

It would be helpful to me for people to distinguish between folk who intend to inflict HIV on people and folk who just have risky sex, neg or poz in further posts.

- matt
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Offline Peter Staley

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #87 on: October 24, 2008, 07:04:14 PM »
I really don't think most of the laws concerning hiv transmission are helping anyone. But as I say, if we can be held accountable, so should the negative/newly seroconverted be held accountable in a court of law. I'm not saying anyone who becomes infected should end up in court, I'm saying the people who take others to court for allegedly infecting them should also face charges. Two way street and all that. Obviously there are exceptions... use your head.

This whole shared responsibility argument seems to me to whitewash the very unequal actions of the two individuals.

One person is intentionally trying to harm another person.

The other person, through their own negligence, is harming themself.

Can those who are arguing some sort of equivalency or shared responsibility between these two people please explain to me why these two distinct differences in their actions don't matter?

Most societies use their legal systems primarily to punish those that harm others.  And most don't see the point of punishing those that harm themselves (thankfully).

Am I missing something here?

Again, I am only talking about someone who knowingly and intentionally infects another person.  Thankfully, we're talking about an incredibly small number of people.  Just because they are HIV positive shouldn't give them some sort of get-out-of-jail-free card for intentionally harming another individual, even if that individual bears some responsibility for putting themself in harm's way.

Offline newt

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #88 on: October 24, 2008, 08:12:14 PM »
But the original post said

Quote
i met a guy on poz.com that lives within five miles of me and he tells me he posts adds on craigslist to get guys to come to him and have unprotected sex

and nowt about knowingly intending to harm someone

Therefore this thread has probably gone miles off topic in terms of helping the original poster about what to do in terms of assisting his friend.

I agree, people who deliberately intend to harm others by getting them to become HIV+ are wrong, even criminally wrong, but as to how to help neighbours who are not au fait with safer sex, a much more important question, and i have no easy answer -- but I would dammit try.

- matt


« Last Edit: October 25, 2008, 04:19:47 AM by newt »
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Offline leatherman

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #89 on: October 24, 2008, 11:51:28 PM »
But the original post said

and nowt about knowingly intending to harm someone

but if that guy knows that he is positive, has not warned these partners, and purposely has unprotected sex then hasn't he knowingly put those people at very high risk of being harmed, if not actually harmed them if they would contract hiv from these encounters? If he is poz, can we not assume (I know what "assuming" something means LOL but I think I'm safe in making this assumption) that some medical person has explained this disease to him and that he risks spreading this infectous disease by having unprotected sex with other people?

to the OP, my advice would be to have a nice "chat" with your neighbor. A friendly warning about how HIV is spread and what precautions to take. Since you say you're open about being gay and poz, simply explaining that you'd hate to see him or anyone else you knew also contract this disease would be an easy way to bring up your chat without even mentioning what you know about the other guy. You too can be an activisit and an educator even if it's only to one person.  ;)
leatherman (aka mIkIE)


chart from 1992-2013; updated 2/09/13  Reyataz/Norvir/Truvada

Offline LordBerners

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #90 on: October 25, 2008, 05:19:52 AM »
Has to end some where... why not with us?

I think your sentiment is well stated and an appealing aphorism - perhaps even with undertones of the nobility of self-sacrifice, but nonetheless, unfortunately, it absolutely fails to reflect the reality of the situation, epidemiologically speaking.

If one of my HIV+ friends went out to knowingly infect others I wouldn't think twice about turning him/her in.

I can only comment that we, each of us, apparently, have our own (and quite often wildly disparate) definition of 'friend', RR.
Please, just call me Berners.. or Baron.

Offline emeraldize

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #91 on: October 25, 2008, 08:38:33 AM »
but if that guy knows that he is positive, has not warned these partners, and purposely has unprotected sex then hasn't he knowingly put those people at very high risk of being harmed, if not actually harmed them if they would contract hiv from these encounters?

You too can be an activisit and an educator even if it's only to one person.  ;)

Leatherman

I agree with you, not surprisingly, on both points.

If you know, then you are doing something knowingly. When you know that HIV is transmitted when condoms are not present and you have led your partner to believe you are not HIV positive by lying or withholding the truth and proceed to have sex without condoms then you intentionally, knowingly expose that person to your HIV.

Hmmm. Maybe it would be better if became more personalized, owned. I'm not gonna make my HIV your HIV.

So often we think of activism as some great group force, walkathons, bike-a-thons, etc. and yet the powerful touches we can give on a one-to-one basis is activism that often activates. All of my single, unmarried, sexually active friends of both sexes know of my status because that is the best way I can activate their brains to think protectively.

Offline blondbeauty

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #92 on: October 25, 2008, 07:14:12 PM »
That guy will pay for what he is doing. At the same time he is transmitting HIV he might be catching all the existing STDs. That is the price he will have to pay.
CONDOMS ARE NOT ENOUGH PROTECTION IF SOMEONE WANTS TO TRANSMITT HIV. I saw a film in which someone made little holes on her sisters condoms to make her become pregnant. So imagine the guy wears condoms but has carefully made holes on them with a needle. He will still infect people but nobody would know the got HIV.
Think about it...
The only member in these forums approved by WINBA: World International Nail and Beauty Association.
Epstein Barr +; CMV +; Toxoplasmosis +; HIV-1 +.
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Offline madbrain

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #93 on: October 25, 2008, 07:48:57 PM »
That guy will pay for what he is doing. At the same time he is transmitting HIV he might be catching all the existing STDs. That is the price he will have to pay.

That is true, but is that punishment fitting enough ?

Quote
CONDOMS ARE NOT ENOUGH PROTECTION IF SOMEONE WANTS TO TRANSMITT HIV.

Well, it's still the best thing we got . What else do you propose ? Abstinence ?

Quote
I saw a film in which someone made little holes on her sisters condoms to make her become pregnant. So imagine the guy wears condoms but has carefully made holes on them with a needle. He will still infect people but nobody would know the got HIV.
Think about it...

It's possible, but he will not necessarily infect many people that way if that's the intent.

Remember, HIV infection doesn't happen every time, even when not using condoms.

There are a lot of other parameters that matter such as the VL of the giver, where the sexual contact happens, whether the recipient has any cuts or is bleeding, to name just a few.

A damaged condom would probably stilll reduce the HIV infection risk somewhat, just less so than one that hadn't been damaged. I don't know how much less so.

Offline blondbeauty

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #94 on: October 25, 2008, 07:53:43 PM »
I know all that...The people that are not protecting themselves are as guilty as him...but if he makes holes to the condoms...then he is the only guilty because he is making prevention impossible for people that are trying to protect themselves.
The only member in these forums approved by WINBA: World International Nail and Beauty Association.
Epstein Barr +; CMV +; Toxoplasmosis +; HIV-1 +.
Counts when starting treatment:
V.L.:80.200 copies. CD4: 25%=503
Started Sustiva-Truvada 14/August/2006
Last V.L.count (Oct 2013): Undetectable
Last CD4 count (OCT 2013): 52%= 933

Offline madbrain

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #95 on: October 25, 2008, 08:14:03 PM »
I know all that...The people that are not protecting themselves are as guilty as him...but if he makes holes to the condoms...then he is the only guilty because he is making prevention impossible for people that are trying to protect themselves.

No question. If he intentionally damages the condom without telling his partner, the situation is closer to unprotected sex without consent of the other party . I don't know what statute that would fall under, if any.

However, the thread was about intentionally infecting through unprotected sex, something that both partners have to consent to.

Offline blondbeauty

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #96 on: October 25, 2008, 08:32:47 PM »
Sorry for not sticking to the subjet with the precision of a clock.
The only member in these forums approved by WINBA: World International Nail and Beauty Association.
Epstein Barr +; CMV +; Toxoplasmosis +; HIV-1 +.
Counts when starting treatment:
V.L.:80.200 copies. CD4: 25%=503
Started Sustiva-Truvada 14/August/2006
Last V.L.count (Oct 2013): Undetectable
Last CD4 count (OCT 2013): 52%= 933

Offline LordBerners

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #97 on: October 26, 2008, 03:03:11 AM »
... HIV is transmitted when condoms are not present...

Haha, if only their mere presence would prevent transmission - like, sitting in the pack on the nightstand. :)

Sorry, that sentence just struck me as funny.
Please, just call me Berners.. or Baron.

Offline emeraldize

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #98 on: October 26, 2008, 08:08:52 AM »
Haha, if only their mere presence would prevent transmission - like, sitting in the pack on the nightstand. :)

Sorry, that sentence just struck me as funny.

Thankfully, your Lordship, I'm confident you know the meaning intended. But, you're right, read in a different way it has humorous potential. You might envision a cartoon-like condom, sitting with legs crossed and dangling over the edge of that nightstand---with a dialog bubble above encasing "I will make yours the best-dressed dick in the room." or " No one pricked holes in me, honest." or "I can give you peace of mind with your piece of ass." or " Let me be your MemBrain." or (fill in the blank).

Offline Basquo

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #99 on: October 26, 2008, 07:57:12 PM »
"Let me be your MemBrain."

LOL @ Em!

Offline hotpuppy

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Re: Knowingly spreading Hiv Can somebody shed some light?
« Reply #100 on: October 30, 2008, 07:32:07 AM »
This is a pretty contentious topic.  Each side of the argument has valid and interesting points.  The harsh reality is that there are new infections every day.  Some because people intentionally spread the disease, some because they spread it not knowing they had it, some because they were high/stupid/naive and engaged in high risk sex.

We can talk all day about criminilization, revenge, terrorism, et al but none of those will change what is happening every day.  To be clear, criminilization means putting people in cages.  We call those cages prison.  They are very expensive.  They are also a place where HIV transmission runs rampant due to societal ignorance.

What we do need to talk about is raising awareness among people who are poz, and people who are not.  Here's what I've done.
1. I posted my status publicly in my online profiles.  I have a variety of reasons.
2. I'm pretty harsh with my neg friends.  I've found I get maximum reaction by goading on their stupidity and slamming it with reality.  I.e. Sure it's no big deal if you become poz... i'll be happy to take you down to the clinic and help you with the paperwork and your first 5 or 6 appointments in your first month.  Thereafter you are on your own to go down every month or so and give blood, get tests, and manage your meds.  I will help you setup a schedule to take your meds, because if you screw up your meds you have to switch them and you only get a few chances.  But ultimately it's your responsibility to take them, daily, every day, with no vacation, on time.   That normally rattles their cage.

I usually reinforce that they need to be having safe sex.  Me personally, I hate condoms.  Yup. Hate the damn things.  Yea yea, I know, the world might fall, a plane might land on me, and I might have to get a shot of penicillin.  In the meanwhile I have decided that sero-sorting is the best option.  I will occassionally play with a neg guy, and condoms are not optional, they are required.  He has to be extra-hot for that to happen, otherwise I just tell them no, not interested... rejected because you are neg.

Anyhow, so rather than hate and nastiness, what have you done to raise awareness? to make people think? to encourage educators to combat 'bad behavior'?  What works best for you?

Because at the end of the day, being vengeful won't make as much of a difference as empowering others to be better, safer, and know their status.
Don't obsess over the wrong things.  Life isn't about your numbers, it isn't about this forum, it isn't about someone's opinion.  It's about getting out there and enjoying it.   I am a person with HIV - not the other way around.

 


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