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Author Topic: Ms. Palin: Be Afraid, Be Very Afraid  (Read 12735 times)

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Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Ms. Palin: Be Afraid, Be Very Afraid
« Reply #50 on: October 01, 2008, 07:29:16 PM »
Hey isn't NC a swing state this week? 


yes
"I’ve slept with enough men to know that I’m not gay"

Offline edfu

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Re: Ms. Palin: Be Afraid, Be Very Afraid
« Reply #51 on: October 01, 2008, 07:30:00 PM »
Sarah Palin sings and dances with the Christianist Wasilla Singers--rare footage:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNVuuhurbZA
« Last Edit: October 01, 2008, 08:28:45 PM by edfu »
"No one will ever be free so long as there are pestilences."--Albert Camus, "The Plague"

"Mankind can never be free until the last brick in the last church falls on the head of the last priest."--Voltaire

Offline Oceanbeach

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Re: Ms. Palin: Be Afraid, Be Very Afraid
« Reply #52 on: October 01, 2008, 10:29:49 PM »
In today's news, The Palins are worth $1.2 million (estimated).  Not as much as the McCains but more than the average American family.

www.comcast.net/articles/news-general/20081002/Palins.Finances   ;D  Have the best day
Michael

Offline CaptCarl

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Re: Ms. Palin: Be Afraid, Be Very Afraid
« Reply #53 on: October 01, 2008, 10:30:06 PM »
Now Children,
   Ms. Palin deserves the utmost respect, because after all, she was knocked up unmarried teenager, who pulled herself up by her muckluck straps to become governor of the largest state in the union. (At least 'til it melts from the Global Warming that she doesn't believe in) Once there, she slashed funding for, guess what? Unmarried pregnant teenageed girls!! If that's not voting your conscience, i don't know what is.


                     VOTE FOR CARRIBOU BARBIE!!!!
The only thing I can do straight is shoot..

Offline edfu

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Re: Ms. Palin: Be Afraid, Be Very Afraid
« Reply #54 on: October 02, 2008, 12:08:31 AM »
Letterman:  Top 10 Things Overheard at Palin Debate Camp:

10. "Let's practice your bewildered silence."

9. "Can you try saying 'yes' instead of 'you betcha'?"

8. "Hey, I can see Mexico from here!"

7. "Maybe we'll get lucky and there won't be any questions about Iraq, taxes or health care."

6. "We're screwed!"

5. "Can I just use that lipstick-pit bull thing again?"

4. "We have to wrap it up for the day -- McCain eats dinner at 4:30."

3. "Can we get Congress to bail us out of this debate?"

2. "John Edwards wants to know if you'd like some private tutoring in his van."

1. "Any way we can just get Tina Fey to do it?"






"No one will ever be free so long as there are pestilences."--Albert Camus, "The Plague"

"Mankind can never be free until the last brick in the last church falls on the head of the last priest."--Voltaire

Offline madbrain

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Re: Ms. Palin: Be Afraid, Be Very Afraid
« Reply #55 on: October 02, 2008, 04:39:12 AM »
In today's news, The Palins are worth $1.2 million (estimated).  Not as much as the McCains but more than the average American family.

Aren't they are 9-member family ? If you account for the national debt per citizen at
http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/

Which was $32,898 at the time of this writing, the Palin's share of national debt is is $296,082, thus they are really worth "only" about $900,000 .

Apparently the average family net worth was $528,000 last year.  http://www.economistblog.com/2007/12/06/us-household-net-worth-at-record-high-of-59t/

It's probably way down since that article was written.

Anyway the average american family size has 3.14 members, and the Palin's have 9 or 2.8x. But their net worth is less than 2.8x the average.

OK, I'll stop with the statistics because I don't want to make it seem like I'm feeling for them - I'm not, they shouldn't have as many stupid children and apparently they can't stop them from reproducing either.

Offline Assurbanipal

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Re: Ms. Palin: Be Afraid, Be Very Afraid
« Reply #56 on: October 02, 2008, 08:54:23 AM »
Aren't they are 9-member family ? If you account for the national debt per citizen at
http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/

Which was $32,898 at the time of this writing, the Palin's share of national debt is is $296,082, thus they are really worth "only" about $900,000 .

Apparently the average family net worth was $528,000 last year.  http://www.economistblog.com/2007/12/06/us-household-net-worth-at-record-high-of-59t/

It's probably way down since that article was written.

Anyway the average american family size has 3.14 members, and the Palin's have 9 or 2.8x. But their net worth is less than 2.8x the average.

OK, I'll stop with the statistics because I don't want to make it seem like I'm feeling for them - I'm not, they shouldn't have as many stupid children and apparently they can't stop them from reproducing either.

Ummm ....This analysis is similar to those we've seen from the Bush Administration over the years.  And it similarly makes no sense:

1) Average (mean) net worth stats include Bill Gates and his peer group.  They tend to bring the "average" up quite a bit.  :)  A more reliable figure is the median (where half the families are above the number and half below).  Bush has been arguing for years that average incomes and net worth are growing -- but basically that's only been because millionaires are doing great.

2) Adjusting the Palins' net worth for the national debt but not adding in the value of government provided retirement monies (Social Security and Medicare) is
a) not how measures of net worth cited are calculated
b) lopsided

3) Trustworthy median net worth stats are hard to come by -- the most recent detailed study available is for 2004 (2007 data will be published next year). http://www.federalreserve.gov/pubs/oss/oss2/2004/2004%20SCF%20Chartbook.zip  For 2004, mean net worth was about 5 times the median net worth.  In other words the "average" (median) family net worth is about $100,000 NOT $500,000.  So the Palins probably have about 10 to 20 times the average family net worth.

4) With an annual income of over $200,000 the Palin's would be in the top 4% of all families by income http://pubdb3.census.gov/macro/032008/hhinc/new06_000.htm

Not exactly the "average Joe sixpack" candidate for VP she reportedly claimed to be on a talk radio show.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2008/09/30/politics/p214755D64.DTL

« Last Edit: October 02, 2008, 08:56:42 AM by Assurbanipal »
5/06 VL 1M+, CD4 22, 5% , pneumonia, thrush -- O2 support 2 months, 6/06 +Kaletra/Truvada
9/06 VL 3959 CD4 297 13.5% 12/06 VL <400 CD4 350 15.2% +Pravachol
2007 VL<400, 70, 50 CD4 408-729 16.0% -19.7%
2008 VL UD CD4 468 - 538 16.7% - 24.6% Osteoporosis 11/08 doubled Pravachol, +Calcium/D
02/09 VL 100 CD4 616 23.7% 03/09 VL 130 5/09 VL 100 CD4 540 28.4% +Actonel (osteoporosis) 7/09 VL 130
8/09  new regimen Isentress/Epzicom 9/09 VL UD CD4 621 32.7% 11/09 VL UD CD4 607 26.4% swap Isentress for Prezista/Norvir 12/09 (liver and muscle issues) VL 50
2010 VL UD CD4 573-680 26.1% - 30.9% 12/10 VL 20
2011 VL UD-20 CD4 568-673 24.7%-30.6%
2012 VL UD swap Prezista/Norvir for Reyataz drop statin CD4 768-828 26.7%-30.7%

Offline GSOgymrat

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Re: Ms. Palin: Be Afraid, Be Very Afraid
« Reply #57 on: October 02, 2008, 10:29:25 AM »
Palin is trying to sell herself as being "one of the people" and probably believes she is. I think Americans generally like to consider themselves as financially "middle class" even when they are not. If you are rich there is an implicit obligation in our culture that you should be doing something for people less fortunate. I've heard people say "My family is not rich, we are just upper middle class" even though they have a 7000 square foot house in a gated community, a beach condo, a boat and luxury cars.  On the other end of the spectrum no one really likes to think of themselves as poor. Of course if you look at the world population most people in the USA would be considered rich.

http://www.boston.com/news/world/articles/2007/10/07/average_earnings_worldwide/

BTW, I can tell you my net worth is nowhere near $528,000.

Offline Robert

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Re: Ms. Palin: Be Afraid, Be Very Afraid
« Reply #58 on: October 02, 2008, 11:32:58 AM »

My friend's sister (who lives in Alaska by the way) wrote this sonnet.  As she mentions it does follow all the rules of an English sonnet. Here it is:

Election Anxiety 2008

Insanity creeps across the nation,
Slipping, virus-like, into empty brains,
Reflected in cries of adulation
From the masses whose eyes are dulled and drained.

"She's someone like us, what we're looking for!"
Mind closed as tight as the traps she has set
To murder the wolf that waits by her door,
Howling with words that she just doesn't get.

Fear the unknown and become the hater.
Don't venture too distant from what you know.
Shoot first (from a plane), ask questions later,
And pray that your God will protect your soul.

Do you hope—or fear—that the end is near?
Will her rapture be our nation's nightmare?

..........

Offline madbrain

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Re: Ms. Palin: Be Afraid, Be Very Afraid
« Reply #59 on: October 02, 2008, 03:30:39 PM »
Hey,

Ummm ....This analysis is similar to those we've seen from the Bush Administration over the years.  And it similarly makes no sense:

1) Average (mean) net worth stats include Bill Gates and his peer group.  They tend to bring the "average" up quite a bit.  :)  A more reliable figure is the median (where half the families are above the number and half below).  Bush has been arguing for years that average incomes and net worth are growing -- but basically that's only been because millionaires are doing great.

Yeah, I'm aware of that. I was looking for the "average Joe", not the "mean Joe" :-)

Quote
2) Adjusting the Palins' net worth for the national debt but not adding in the value of government provided retirement monies (Social Security and Medicare) is
a) not how measures of net worth cited are calculated
b) lopsided

Are the Palins collecting on Social security and medicare benefits already ?

Quote
3) Trustworthy median net worth stats are hard to come by -- the most recent detailed study available is for 2004 (2007 data will be published next year). http://www.federalreserve.gov/pubs/oss/oss2/2004/2004%20SCF%20Chartbook.zip  For 2004, mean net worth was about 5 times the median net worth.  In other words the "average" (median) family net worth is about $100,000 NOT $500,000.  So the Palins probably have about 10 to 20 times the average family net worth.

Thanks for those links. Very interesting.  I guess you can really make statistics can really show anything. I should have posted yours !

Quote
4) With an annual income of over $200,000 the Palin's would be in the top 4% of all families by income http://pubdb3.census.gov/macro/032008/hhinc/new06_000.htm

I hadn't seen anything about the Palin's income. The original link posted by Sonomabeach is now dead. I only saw the information about their net worth in his post.

Quote
Not exactly the "average Joe sixpack" candidate for VP she reportedly claimed to be on a talk radio show.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2008/09/30/politics/p214755D64.DTL

No, not in the income or net worth category, but in IQ, she is probably way below average. I guess the debate tonight will tell all.

I'm not really looking for another below-average George in the vice-presidency or presidency. If they ever figure out time travel, I will support retroactive abortion for the both of them.

Offline Funkengruven

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Re: Ms. Palin: Be Afraid, Be Very Afraid
« Reply #60 on: October 02, 2008, 04:31:39 PM »
not sure if its been brought up yet, but for a little fun during tonight's debate, go to www.palinbingo.com

Offline atlq

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Re: Ms. Palin: Be Afraid, Be Very Afraid
« Reply #61 on: October 02, 2008, 04:46:26 PM »
She'll probably do alright tonight (by alright I mean no catastrophic quotes or 2 minute silences). The format that was agreed to by both camps allows no interaction between the two and she has been stuffed with enough one-liners and wingnut talking points to bluff her way through the questions of the now completely neutered Gwen Ifill. It doesn't matter though...they can close the barn door, but the horse has escaped.....
“Keep up the good work....   And God bless you.”
  --  Sarah Palin, to members of the Alaskan Independence Party, 2008

Offline AlanBama

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Re: Ms. Palin: Be Afraid, Be Very Afraid
« Reply #62 on: October 03, 2008, 11:40:33 AM »
My biggest complaint was that she wouldn't directly answer the question asked.   She kept steering everything back to "energy", the only subject she seemed to 'think' she knew all about.

I love it that Biden nailed her on the Iraq war fiasco, and that he 'debunked' the "Maverick" title for McCain.   Those were highlights, for me.

She did do better than I expected.
"Remember my sentimental friend that a heart is not judged by how much you love, but by how much you are loved by others." - The Wizard of Oz

Offline Assurbanipal

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Re: Ms. Palin: Be Afraid, Be Very Afraid
« Reply #63 on: October 03, 2008, 04:59:51 PM »
My biggest complaint was that she wouldn't directly answer the question asked.   She kept steering everything back to "energy", the only subject she seemed to 'think' she knew all about.

Until she said it in the debate, I hadn't really focused in on the idea that McCain had asked her to be in charge of energy policy!!!!  This is the woman who at another point on the debate said Alaska was leading the charge toward energy independence and that natural gas was a source of "clean, green" energy (guess she needs a little refresher on the atomic structure of methane? -- oh, but that's right I forgot that she doesn't think greenhouse gas emissions cause global warming). 

The idea that John McCain thinks she is capable of leading the charge on energy independence is just another reason to question his judgment re Mrs. Palin.
5/06 VL 1M+, CD4 22, 5% , pneumonia, thrush -- O2 support 2 months, 6/06 +Kaletra/Truvada
9/06 VL 3959 CD4 297 13.5% 12/06 VL <400 CD4 350 15.2% +Pravachol
2007 VL<400, 70, 50 CD4 408-729 16.0% -19.7%
2008 VL UD CD4 468 - 538 16.7% - 24.6% Osteoporosis 11/08 doubled Pravachol, +Calcium/D
02/09 VL 100 CD4 616 23.7% 03/09 VL 130 5/09 VL 100 CD4 540 28.4% +Actonel (osteoporosis) 7/09 VL 130
8/09  new regimen Isentress/Epzicom 9/09 VL UD CD4 621 32.7% 11/09 VL UD CD4 607 26.4% swap Isentress for Prezista/Norvir 12/09 (liver and muscle issues) VL 50
2010 VL UD CD4 573-680 26.1% - 30.9% 12/10 VL 20
2011 VL UD-20 CD4 568-673 24.7%-30.6%
2012 VL UD swap Prezista/Norvir for Reyataz drop statin CD4 768-828 26.7%-30.7%

Online mecch

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Re: Ms. Palin: Be Afraid, Be Very Afraid
« Reply #64 on: October 03, 2008, 05:17:56 PM »
I found her charming, likeable, plucky, uncowed, unpretentious, shrewd, completely unprepared for the job, strangely stepford wifes-ish -- like almost bipolar or robotoic -- they way she was all shucks gosh folksy looking at Joe Biden then would turn her head, furrow her brow, steel her eyes at the camera and go into some preset speech to sound all well informed and serious.

Much better than I expected, and totally horrific she could be a powerful person in washington soon.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2008, 05:20:02 PM by mecch »
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline madbrain

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Re: Ms. Palin: Be Afraid, Be Very Afraid
« Reply #65 on: October 03, 2008, 05:48:49 PM »
I was upset about the debate. I watched it twice.

Once from the gym on CNN with no sound and no captions. The only thing I could see were Gwen Ifill's questions, which were displayed on the screen. I think she did poorly as a journalist. Especially on the same-sex marriage question. WTF does "Would you support granting same-sex benefits to couples" mean ? What's a same-sex benefit ? A special free tattoo on your penis ? I was angry just reading that question without being able to know what else was going on.

How about some real precise, substantive questions, like, after visiting your same-sex partner in the hospital, if he happens to die in there, will you be able to collect a social security pension as a widow ? Or are you not worthy of that, despite both paying all your social security taxes ?

I watched the debate a 2nd time at home on PBS since I had recorded it on my DVR, this time with the sound so that I could hear the candidates' answers.

You betcha Palin didn't do as badly as expected. Darn !

I did not think Biden was very impressive overall. I knew his positions on same sex marriage before (as well as Obama's), but I still wanted to kill him when I heard his answer to it - basically that it should be up to religion to define civil marriage ! That made no sense whatsoever and it really, really alienated me as an atheist. I wanted to shoot him through the screen. I don't live in a swing state (California), and I am seriously considering voting for a 3rd party candidate as a result of last night's debate. Maybe even vote for the candidate of the green party that I am still registered to. I better start looking up who it is. I was going to vote for Obama before last night, but I don't think I can stand his VP choice.

Offline dixieman

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Re: Ms. Palin: Be Afraid, Be Very Afraid
« Reply #66 on: October 03, 2008, 06:04:12 PM »
Man yall really do not read between the lines... yes Prada was on the opposit side of democracy... and the polar bear full length fur... now how can you miss that... the polar bear is on the possible extinction list... I consider myself middle class... I'm worth more than a million but, what is a million worth in todays dollars? not much...
But, you have to give this women credit... she's pretty sharp and she comes across as a sincere human being... In reality... people need to wake up and see who actually runs this country... its not the president, its not Congress ... its the corperations, big industry... etc... the politicians are puppets of the puppet masters... now whose being decieved?

Offline madbrain

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Re: Ms. Palin: Be Afraid, Be Very Afraid
« Reply #67 on: October 03, 2008, 06:32:08 PM »
Hi,

Man yall really do not read between the lines... yes Prada was on the opposit side of democracy... and the polar bear full length fur... now how can you miss that... the polar bear is on the possible extinction list... I consider myself middle class... I'm worth more than a million but, what is a million worth in todays dollars? not much...
But, you have to give this women credit... she's pretty sharp and she comes across as a sincere human being... In reality... people need to wake up and see who actually runs this country... its not the president, its not Congress ... its the corperations, big industry... etc... the politicians are puppets of the puppet masters... now whose being decieved?

I can read between the lines just fine. But I wish I didn't have to. Biden really tried to appeal to the religious people last night, while Palin was trying to say as little as possible. I didn't learn all that much about Palin in the debate, and much more about Biden.

I didn't vote for Al "What would Jesus do" Gore in 2000, nor for George born-again Bush in 2000 or 2004. If Biden is going to bend over to the Church and resolve all senate ties in their favor, well, I just don't think I can live with voting for him. I hope he convinced enough proponents of continuing theocracy last night to vote for him instead of his opponent, who was not exactly forthcoming about her real positions.

Offline Cliff

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Re: Ms. Palin: Be Afraid, Be Very Afraid
« Reply #68 on: October 05, 2008, 04:16:31 AM »
But, you have to give this women credit... she's pretty sharp and she comes across as a sincere human being...
She doesn't come across as sharp to me.  She speaks in a condescending tone, as if she has to dumb-down everything for the average Joe.  But I don't think it's intentionally.  I  think she needs to dumb-down everything for her to fully understand it.

I also don't find her sincere.  She seems fake to me (all that unnecessary winking and speaking to Americans as though we all speak Alaskan-folksy English).  I think she is sincere in her religious beliefs.  In some respect, I think that makes her more dangerous than Bush (who I suspect was never really committed to evangelicals, just their votes).  But I don't find Palin's hockey-mom references to every question on the economy sincere.  Patronising, perhaps.  But not sincere.

Offline GSOgymrat

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Re: Ms. Palin: Be Afraid, Be Very Afraid
« Reply #69 on: October 05, 2008, 03:42:13 PM »
Here is the SNL spoof of the vice presidential debate.

http://www.nbc.com/Saturday_Night_Live/video/clips/vp-debate-open-palin-biden/727421/

"I believe marriage is meant to be a sacred institution between two unwilling teenagers."  :D

Offline Oceanbeach

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Re: Ms. Palin: Be Afraid, Be Very Afraid
« Reply #70 on: October 05, 2008, 04:34:37 PM »
But, you have to give this women credit... she's pretty sharp and she comes across as a sincere human being...
 

Sure SHE IS, was it 5 colleges in 6 years or 6 colleges in 5 years for a BA in Journalism (4 year degree)?  On a good day, she can put together an entire sentence in the English language without help.  ;D  Have the best day
Michael

Offline atlq

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Re: Ms. Palin: Be Afraid, Be Very Afraid
« Reply #71 on: October 05, 2008, 05:07:56 PM »


 
I didn't vote for Al "What would Jesus do" Gore in 2000, nor for George born-again Bush in 2000 or 2004. If Biden is going to bend over to the Church and resolve all senate ties in their favor, well, I just don't think I can live with voting for him. I hope he convinced enough proponents of continuing theocracy last night to vote for him instead of his opponent, who was not exactly forthcoming about her real positions.


As a "born again" atheist all I can say to this is whaaa? Pro choice, pro ENDA, anti Federal Marriage Amendment Joe Biden (and Barack Obama) "bending over"?....


But hey Brain, if Barr or McKinney are more to your liking, go ahead and vote for them, or for no one. The rest of us will continue to muddy ourselves in the trenches fighting for your continued right of folks like you to remain above it all. Your purity being more important than actually achieving anything, after all.


BTW...The Alaska Governor has been quite plain about her positions. From supporting policies which made rape victims purchase their own rape kits, to stating that homosexuality is a "choice" that she disagrees with, to supporting her churches recent  "ex gay" programs......I am have no doubt as to what she believes. You do?
« Last Edit: October 05, 2008, 05:10:42 PM by atlq »
“Keep up the good work....   And God bless you.”
  --  Sarah Palin, to members of the Alaskan Independence Party, 2008

Offline thunter34

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Re: Ms. Palin: Be Afraid, Be Very Afraid
« Reply #72 on: October 05, 2008, 05:16:56 PM »
Hear, Hear!  Thanks, atlq.  I was scratching my head over that, too.
AIDS isn't for sissies.

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Ms. Palin: Be Afraid, Be Very Afraid
« Reply #73 on: October 05, 2008, 05:19:47 PM »
I'm worth more than a million but, what is a million worth in todays dollars? not much...

Barbara, please. 
"I’ve slept with enough men to know that I’m not gay"

Offline pozattitude

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Re: Ms. Palin: Be Afraid, Be Very Afraid
« Reply #74 on: October 06, 2008, 12:20:16 PM »
I think this just about sums it up.


[attachment deleted by admin]
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Offline Oceanbeach

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Re: Ms. Palin: Be Afraid, Be Very Afraid
« Reply #75 on: October 06, 2008, 02:41:06 PM »
Hey Rich,

I got joy from the second topic point, "Is that question on your index cards?"  I remember calling Index Cards, Idiot Cards.   ;D  Have the best day
Michael

Offline madbrain

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Re: Ms. Palin: Be Afraid, Be Very Afraid
« Reply #76 on: October 06, 2008, 02:43:17 PM »
Hi,

As a "born again" atheist all I can say to this is whaaa? Pro choice, pro ENDA, anti Federal Marriage Amendment Joe Biden (and Barack Obama) "bending over"?....

My comment was talking specifically about what Biden said in the debate. Quote from http://elections.nytimes.com/2008/president/debates/transcripts/vice-presidential-debate.html

Quote:

IFILL: Let's try to avoid nuance, Senator. Do you support gay marriage?

BIDEN: No. Barack Obama nor I support redefining from a civil side what constitutes marriage. We do not support that. That is basically the decision to be able to be able to be left to faiths and people who practice their faiths the determination what you call it.

End quote.

If that's not surrendering the definition of marriage to religion, then I don't know what is.

The fact is that marriage is already codified in civil law, both federal and state. Biden is running for a federal office. There is supposed to be separation of church and state, and religions have zero business defining laws for all citizens including people that are not of their faith. If one accepts that marriage is to be defined by religion, as Biden said he does, then I think due to separation of church and state that every single federal and state marriage law should be either stripped off the books completely, or rewritten to be civil union laws for everybody, without the word marriage appearing into any law anymore. That position would make much more sense. I could actually accept that. But that is not Biden's position. His position is that faith defines marriage, and that is then codified into civil laws for all citizens. How can that even be constitutional ? And where does that leave the 16% of atheists in this country (I got that stat from the movie "Religulous" which I saw last night. Not as funny as I hoped) ?  Biden is supposed to be a professor of constitutional law.

I am aware of Obama's and Biden's record on gay rights, but I would never know it from any debate. I knew that both Obama and Biden did not support same-sex marriage before the VP debate, but I never knew on what grounds. Now I know at least the reason why Biden opposes it. I don't know if Obama's reason is the same or not.

Quote
But hey Brain, if Barr or McKinney are more to your liking, go ahead and vote for them, or for no one. The rest of us will continue to muddy ourselves in the trenches fighting for your continued right of folks like you to remain above it all. Your purity being more important than actually achieving anything, after all.

Well certainly Barr who wrote DOMA isn't any more to my liking than anyone else !
McKinney, I will have to look into some more.

This is not about purity. And actually my vote may achieve something. Even if doesn't get my favorite candidate elected (whoever that turns out to be, but neither Obama nor McCain), it might give funding to the people and parties who truly support us, and try to steer the country to the left. As long as it doesn't get the worst person elected - that would be the McCain/Palin ticket - which I don't think it will given that I live in California, then I think it's a good thing. If I lived in a swing state, then my vote might be for Obama/Biden, even though I don't support many of their positions especially on this one issue of same-sex marriage.

Quote
BTW...The Alaska Governor has been quite plain about her positions. From supporting policies which made rape victims purchase their own rape kits, to stating that homosexuality is a "choice" that she disagrees with, to supporting her churches recent  "ex gay" programs......I am have no doubt as to what she believes. You do?

I am well aware of her positions and I would never vote for her ticket. I don't think she was plain about her positions at all in the debate. She danced around it most like everything else. She tried to portray herself as "tolerant" of gays. I guess that means she won't send us to the camps. At least she didn't try to say she was a "compassionate" conservative.

Offline woodshere

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Re: Ms. Palin: Be Afraid, Be Very Afraid
« Reply #77 on: October 06, 2008, 05:14:22 PM »
If that's not surrendering the definition of marriage to religion, then I don't know what is.

The fact is that marriage is already codified in civil law, both federal and state. Biden is running for a federal office. There is supposed to be separation of church and state, and religions have zero business defining laws for all citizens including people that are not of their faith. If one accepts that marriage is to be defined by religion, as Biden said he does, then I think due to separation of church and state that every single federal and state marriage law should be either stripped off the books completely, or rewritten to be civil union laws for everybody, without the word marriage appearing into any law anymore. That position would make much more sense. I could actually accept that. But that is not Biden's position. His position is that faith defines marriage, and that is then codified into civil laws for all citizens. How can that even be constitutional ? And where does that leave the 16% of atheists in this country (I got that stat from the movie "Religulous" which I saw last night. Not as funny as I hoped) ?  Biden is supposed to be a professor of constitutional law.


And right before the debate quote you sited was this: (taken from the same source)

Biden:  "Absolutely. Do I support granting same-sex benefits? Absolutely positively. Look, in an Obama-Biden administration, there will be absolutely no distinction from a constitutional standpoint or a legal standpoint between a same-sex and a heterosexual couple.The fact of the matter is that under the Constitution we should be granted -- same-sex couples should be able to have visitation rights in the hospitals, joint ownership of property, life insurance policies, et cetera. That's only fair.It's what the Constitution calls for. And so we do support it. We do support making sure that committed couples in a same-sex marriage are guaranteed the same constitutional benefits as it relates to their property rights, their rights of visitation, their rights to insurance, their rights of ownership as heterosexual couples do."

I think that is pretty strong support for the treatment of same sex couples, under the law.  As a matter of fact he even uses the term "same-sex marriage".  I would be very happy if things he mentioned came to be law.  Let the churches decide who does and doesn't get married in their church.  I think we should focus on which party will be more willing to work with us in advancing those issues Biden stated. 



"Let us give pubicity to HV/AIDS and not hide it..." "One of the things destroying people with AIDS is the stigma we attach to it."   Nelson Mandela

Offline Oceanbeach

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Re: Ms. Palin: Be Afraid, Be Very Afraid
« Reply #78 on: October 06, 2008, 06:04:11 PM »
And right before the debate quote you sited was this: (taken from the same source)

Biden:  "Absolutely. Do I support granting same-sex benefits? Absolutely positively. Look, in an Obama-Biden administration, there will be absolutely no distinction from a constitutional standpoint or a legal standpoint between a same-sex and a heterosexual couple.The fact of the matter is that under the Constitution we should be granted -- same-sex couples should be able to have visitation rights in the hospitals, joint ownership of property, life insurance policies, et cetera. That's only fair.It's what the Constitution calls for. And so we do support it. We do support making sure that committed couples in a same-sex marriage are guaranteed the same constitutional benefits as it relates to their property rights, their rights of visitation, their rights to insurance, their rights of ownership as heterosexual couples do."

Hey Woods,

I believe, I remember Gov. Palin agreed with Sen Biden on this point.  In my opinion, Sen Biden baited Gov Palin so she would agree and if nothing else, what will the god fearing folks of Wasilla think of her now as they "pray away the gay".  ;D  Have the best day
Michael
(who always uses the lower case "g" in god so not to appear pretentious)

Offline Oceanbeach

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Re: Ms. Palin: Be Afraid, Be Very Afraid
« Reply #79 on: October 06, 2008, 06:06:52 PM »
Something like this perhaps:




Hey Ford,

Perhaps she will do a black mink advertisement and become a "legend" in her own mind  ;D  Have the best day
Michael

Offline madbrain

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Re: Ms. Palin: Be Afraid, Be Very Afraid
« Reply #80 on: October 06, 2008, 06:39:26 PM »
Hi,

And right before the debate quote you sited was this: (taken from the same source)

Biden:  "Absolutely. Do I support granting same-sex benefits? Absolutely positively. Look, in an Obama-Biden administration, there will be absolutely no distinction from a constitutional standpoint or a legal standpoint between a same-sex and a heterosexual couple.

I don't know how you can reconcile this answer with the next one he gave about being opposed to same-sex marriage which I quoted. Surely if same-sex couples cannot get the legal status of a civil marriage, then there is a distinction between couples from a legal standpoint.

So, in my opinion, Biden clearly contradicted himself. One of his two answers was a lie.

I would prefer to believe it was the answer you quoted that was true and the one I quoted that was a lie. But remember that we are talking about the same Joe Biden who voted for DOMA. So I choose to believe that his second answer was more accurate.

Quote
The fact of the matter is that under the Constitution we should be granted -- same-sex couples should be able to have visitation rights in the hospitals, joint ownership of property, life insurance policies, et cetera. That's only fair.It's what the Constitution calls for.
And so we do support it. We do support making sure that committed couples in a same-sex marriage are guaranteed the same constitutional benefits as it relates to their property rights, their rights of visitation, their rights to insurance, their rights of ownership as heterosexual couples do."

I heard and read that part too, but I didn't find that answer overly convincing.  Many of the rights he cited already exist under some state laws, and are not strictly federal rights or benefits. I agree that there is a need to reconcile some federal laws with state laws around joint ownership of property particularly, and in some other cases. But overall, I don't really see him promising much change. IMO, he certainly danced around the issue.

If he really wanted to talk about benefits for same-sex couples, then he could have made statements regarding his support for some of the most important of the 1000 federal rights available to heterosexual couples, such as the ability to bring your partner into the country, social security survivor benefits, and joint federal tax filing. But he did not make any statement to that effect.

Quote
I think that is pretty strong support for the treatment of same sex couples, under the law.

It's all relative. It is much stronger than what Palin had to say for sure. But I think it still goes way short of what's needed.

Quote
As a matter of fact he even uses the term "same-sex marriage".

Thanks for pointing that out ! I didn't even notice that part ! I guess that's one more contradiction from Biden, since he said in the next answer that he opposes same-sex marriage.

Quote
I would be very happy if things he mentioned came to be law.

Yes, so would I, but have the audacity to hope for more.

Quote
Let the churches decide who does and doesn't get married in their church. 

And that's completely OK, as long as that religious marriage has no legal bearing, and is a separate institution from civil marriage.

Quote
I think we should focus on which party will be more willing to work with us in advancing those issues Biden stated. 

Well if you really want to focus on that, then it's clearly not either of the big 2. Unfortunately, the other parties don't have electable candidates for the highest offices. I think if they were more popular, we would hear a different tune from the democrats.

Offline atlq

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Re: Ms. Palin: Be Afraid, Be Very Afraid
« Reply #81 on: October 07, 2008, 09:23:12 AM »
If he really wanted to talk about benefits for same-sex couples, then he could have made statements regarding his support for some of the most important of the 1000 federal rights available to heterosexual couples, such as the ability to bring your partner into the country, social security survivor benefits, and joint federal tax filing. But he did not make any statement to that effect.- Mad Brain

I think that is pretty strong support for the treatment of same sex couples, under the law. -Woodshere

It's all relative. It is much stronger than what Palin had to say for sure. But I think it still goes way short of what's needed. -MadBrain

I would be very happy if things he mentioned came to be law. - Woodshere

Yes, so would I, but have the audacity to hope for more.- Woodshere

Sigh...maybe I lack for audacity but after eight years of Republican led assaults on our  relationships and humanity I'd "settle" for this:

 http://obama.3cdn.net/9bbadf2e4222f1de03_5humvyu4s.pdf


 But of course, demanding a pony and then threatening to vote against the party that is actually working on our behalf is also an option, I guess......Just sayin'
« Last Edit: October 07, 2008, 09:25:15 AM by atlq »
“Keep up the good work....   And God bless you.”
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Offline thunter34

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Offline madbrain

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Re: Ms. Palin: Be Afraid, Be Very Afraid
« Reply #83 on: October 08, 2008, 04:55:06 PM »
Hi,

Sigh...maybe I lack for audacity but after eight years of Republican led assaults on our  relationships and humanity I'd "settle" for this:

 http://obama.3cdn.net/9bbadf2e4222f1de03_5humvyu4s.pdf

 But of course, demanding a pony and then threatening to vote against the party that is actually working on our behalf is also an option, I guess......Just sayin'

That is a pretty good document. I hadn't seen it before. Thanks for posting it.
I don't think it's very consistent with Obama's previous statements, or Biden's. This summer I read an interview in HRC's equality magazine where Obama said in the same paragraph that he was against DOMA, and that states should be allow to choose whether to recognize same-sex unions from other states or not - and that is half of the provisions of DOMA. I spent a lot of time on google yesterday trying to find his exact quote, but HRC doesn't have their magazine archived online for the public.

In short, I think it's obvious the democrats have contradicted themselves quite a bit on this issue and I don't really buy the promises they are making. I usually like to vote for the candidate that has the best position on the issues I care about as long as it doesn't hurt the cause. I voted for Nader in 2000 who fully supported same-sex marriage. And the 2nd best (Gore) still won in my state of California, so I don't regret that vote.

In this case it seems that Obama is the strongest candidate on the ballot. I have been looking into the McKinney campaign and I really cannot find much on it. So I think I am going to vote for Obama after all. I got my absentee ballot in the mail on monday. I still need to read the stuff on all the propositions.

I note that California Prop 8 - "eliminate the rights of same-sex couples to marry" is now coming out ahead in some polls. I'm sure Biden coming out against same-sex marriage did not help that.

Offline thunter34

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Re: Ms. Palin: Be Afraid, Be Very Afraid
« Reply #84 on: October 08, 2008, 05:40:44 PM »
I'm sure Biden coming out against same-sex marriage did not help that.


You are the only individual....the ONLY one....that I have come across anywhere that has interpreted Biden's comments as "coming out against same-sex marriage".
AIDS isn't for sissies.

Offline CaptCarl

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Re: Ms. Palin: Be Afraid, Be Very Afraid
« Reply #85 on: October 08, 2008, 06:57:36 PM »
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXRcFQowXwQ

Thanx Timster,
    I really needed that laugh after the day I had at work today!!!! :)
The only thing I can do straight is shoot..

Offline madbrain

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Re: Ms. Palin: Be Afraid, Be Very Afraid
« Reply #86 on: October 08, 2008, 07:30:37 PM »
You are the only individual....the ONLY one....that I have come across anywhere that has interpreted Biden's comments as "coming out against same-sex marriage".

He was asked the question by Gwen Ifill and he said very plainly that he did not support it. See the transcript I posted and linked to earlier in this thread. Barack Obama has said the same many times. I don't see any room for interpretation there. He supports other things, but not same-sex marriage.

Do you have any evidence that Biden (and Obama) are lying, and are actually closet same-sex marriage supporters ?

Offline atlq

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Re: Ms. Palin: Be Afraid, Be Very Afraid
« Reply #87 on: October 08, 2008, 08:12:20 PM »
Mad,

Since you seem to be a single issue voter, think about this....Three times since 2002 the Congress brought the Federal Marriage Amendment through committee and to the floors of the House and Senate for votes....until Nov. of 2006. Since then? No Federal Marriage Amendment....Hmmmm ,what could have changed in November of 2006?...I'm guessing that the Democratic takeover of both  houses of Congress had a lot everything to do with this.
You should also remember that a large number of Democrats voted against this amendment and were bludgeoned with that vote in 2004 when the RNC, state Republican parties and Karl Rove wrote many of the numerous state constitutional amendments.

The national Democratic Party supports the legal right of gay and lesbian couples to enter into contractual relationships in which property rights, insurance, and issues like hospital visitation and the right to inherit property are guaranteed. Are they at the point of calling it marriage? No. But when you are fighting a war, you find allies, take the ground as it is given, and press on. You do not turn on those who are working with you.

As a Democrat, I am constantly disappointed at my party's lack of assertiveness on any number of issues ( I think being a Democrat means living with disappointment.... ;D). But I really think we are on the verge of a sea change here. For example, the House (under Democratic control) just passed ENDA (anyone remember ENDA?) and the Senate (also under Democratic control ) is only waiting for a Democratic president,so that this important piece of legislation will be safe from a Bush veto....

There have been times in our past when many of us could entertain the fantasy of voting for a third (or fourth or fifth ) party candidate in order to "teach the Democrats a lesson".  We can no longer afford that luxury. The times are too serious, and the consequences too grave for all of us, gay and straight, poz and neg.

Edited for typos....
« Last Edit: October 08, 2008, 09:01:20 PM by atlq »
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Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Ms. Palin: Be Afraid, Be Very Afraid
« Reply #88 on: October 08, 2008, 08:44:02 PM »
atlq:  a voice of sanity and reason
"I’ve slept with enough men to know that I’m not gay"

Offline atlq

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Re: Ms. Palin: Be Afraid, Be Very Afraid
« Reply #89 on: October 08, 2008, 08:45:49 PM »
 
atlq:  a voice of sanity and reason

Your 20 bucks is in the mail.....
“Keep up the good work....   And God bless you.”
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Offline CaptCarl

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Re: Ms. Palin: Be Afraid, Be Very Afraid
« Reply #90 on: October 08, 2008, 08:50:16 PM »
   But getting back to the original point of this thread, which is (was) Mrs. Sarah Palin. The more time I spend thinking about this dingbat, the more I realize the opportunity we have here. We have not had this much fun with any politician since Dan(PotatoeHead)Quayle.  If we have the misfortune of this piece of shit actually getting into office, at least we will have four years of great SNL skits to look forward to. (Until of course the right wing bans making fun of the Executive Office) I actually think we should run Tina Fey on an independent platform, who knows?

CaptCarl
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Offline edfu

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Re: Ms. Palin: Be Afraid, Be Very Afraid
« Reply #91 on: October 08, 2008, 09:49:53 PM »

atlq:  a voice of sanity and reason

I will more than enthusiastically second that motion.

BRAVO, atlq!!!
"No one will ever be free so long as there are pestilences."--Albert Camus, "The Plague"

"Mankind can never be free until the last brick in the last church falls on the head of the last priest."--Voltaire

Offline Oceanbeach

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Re: Ms. Palin: Be Afraid, Be Very Afraid
« Reply #92 on: October 08, 2008, 09:54:46 PM »
   at least we will have four years of great SNL skits to look forward to. (Until of course the right wing bans making fun of the Executive Office) I actually think we should run Tina Fey on an independent platform, who knows?

CaptCarl

Captain, my Captain,

WE may not need to, Ms. Gov. Palin has plans... www.comcast.net/tv/seenontv/12877/palintospooffeyonsnl  She has time for this?  ;D  Have the best day
Michael


Offline atlq

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“Keep up the good work....   And God bless you.”
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Offline BlueMoon

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Re: Ms. Palin: Be Afraid, Be Very Afraid
« Reply #94 on: October 09, 2008, 06:49:32 PM »
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/10/9/8101/16495/655/624818

Haha, excellent!  They just kept getting better as I scrolled down the page.

Poor Jim Backus though, he got paired with Maverick McCain twice. 
...................VL.....CD4.....%
-----------------------------------------
08/10-- ......<40.....290.....42
05/10-- ......<48.....290.....46
02/10-- ......<48.....481.....44
10/09-- ......<48.....277.....46
07/09-- ......<48.....300.....38
05/09-- ........51.....449.....39
03/09-- Added Isentress
02/09-- ........65.....299.....34
11/08-- ........62.....242.....40
08/08-- ........66.....212.....29
05/08-- ......202.....217.....27
03/08-- ....5210.....187.....21
02/08-- Began Truvada/Reyataz/Norvir
12/07-- 273,000.....157.....22
11/07-- 229,000.....209.....22
10/07-- Diagnosis

It's a complex world.

Offline atlq

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Re: Ms. Palin: Be Afraid, Be Very Afraid
« Reply #95 on: October 09, 2008, 06:56:48 PM »
Haha, excellent!  They just kept getting better as I scrolled down the page.

Poor Jim Backus though, he got paired with Maverick McCain twice. 

Yeah, and I still think the Palin comparison is really unfair to Ralph...
“Keep up the good work....   And God bless you.”
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Offline atlq

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Re: Ms. Palin: Be Afraid, Be Very Afraid
« Reply #96 on: October 09, 2008, 10:34:18 PM »
“Keep up the good work....   And God bless you.”
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Offline Oceanbeach

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Re: Ms. Palin: Be Afraid, Be Very Afraid
« Reply #97 on: October 10, 2008, 01:11:18 PM »
Sarah Palin: "Marvericky" Energy Expert:

http://www.americablog.com/2008/10/this-just-in-sarah-palin-not-as-bright.html

This one keeps coming up, the "troopergate" investigation involvers both Ms. Gov Maverick, energy consultant, soccer mom and oh yeah Republican candidate for the Vice Presidency on the John McCain team. 

www.Comcast.net/articles/news-politics/20081010/Palin.Troopergate

 This candidate provides more entertainment than I deserve.  ;D  Have the best day
Michael
« Last Edit: October 10, 2008, 01:18:08 PM by Sonomabeach »

Offline madbrain

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Re: Ms. Palin: Be Afraid, Be Very Afraid
« Reply #98 on: October 10, 2008, 06:49:19 PM »
atlq,


Mad,
Since you seem to be a single issue voter, think about this....

I admit that I am more passionate about this one issue of same-sex marriage than many others, but that is not to the exclusion of those other issues.

I think as any HIV+ person on these forums, I am concerned about how healthcare is going to be available to us in the long run in particular. What I have seen from Palin or McCain on that issue is quite simply disgusting.

I also care about the huge portion of my tax dollars being wasted in an illegal and misguided war in Iraq against people who did not attack us.

I could go on but I don't think I really need to. I hope it's clear that I would not in a million years vote for the McCain / Palin ticket or vote for anyone else that caused a republican to be elected.

Quote
Three times since 2002 the Congress brought the Federal Marriage Amendment through committee and to the floors of the House and Senate for votes....until Nov. of 2006. Since then? No Federal Marriage Amendment....Hmmmm ,what could have changed in November of 2006?...I'm guessing that the Democratic takeover of both  houses of Congress had a lot everything to do with this.

Actually it seems that there was a 2008 Marriage Protection Amendment. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Marriage_Amendment

I am thankful to the Democrats for not voting for this heinous legislation when it came up for a vote.

Back in 2002 when not a single state recognized same-sex marriage, the Democratic party position made somewhat more sense than it does today.

But in May 2004, the state of Massachusetts started recognizing them. And in June 2008 the state of California did.

Yet the 2004 Democratic presidential nominee did not support same-sex marriage at the federal level, and neither does the 2008 Democratic presidential nominee.

I think at some point the Democrats need to decide if they are on our side or not, and I'm dismayed that they still cannot come to terms with that issue in 2008. I hope that they will in 2012 and that I can more enthusiastically vote for them.

Quote
You should also remember that a large number of Democrats voted against this amendment and were bludgeoned with that vote in 2004 when the RNC, state Republican parties and Karl Rove wrote many of the numerous state constitutional amendments.

I am in no way defending the behavior of the republicans. It disgusts me.

Quote
As a Democrat, I am constantly disappointed at my party's lack of assertiveness on any number of issues ( I think being a Democrat means living with disappointment.... ;D).

I think you got that right ! I have voted for a lot of democratic candidates for various offices, and I keep being disappointed. Not so many have won, whether it comes to presidential elections or gubernatioral elections.

Quote
But I really think we are on the verge of a sea change here. For example, the House (under Democratic control) just passed ENDA (anyone remember ENDA?) and the Senate (also under Democratic control ) is only waiting for a Democratic president,so that this important piece of legislation will be safe from a Bush veto....

I agree ENDA is good, but it was unnecessarily castrated when it comes to transgender rights, even though it was known that Bush would veto it no matter what. And it was the democrats who took that away from the ENDA bill. With the democrats it's two steps forward and one backwards. In the end that's still better than the status quo or backwards steps that we get with the republicans, but I still hope to vote for someone who is better than that if I can.

Quote
There have been times in our past when many of us could entertain the fantasy of voting for a third (or fourth or fifth ) party candidate in order to "teach the Democrats a lesson".  We can no longer afford that luxury. The times are too serious, and the consequences too grave for all of us, gay and straight, poz and neg.

It's not necessarily about teaching Democrats any lesson, but rather about getting them to better align their positions with their base. Voting for a ticket on the left doesn't always have to be done at the expense of a center ticket like the Obama/Biden one; and at least it doesn't have to favor the far right ticket if the election is not close in the state where you live.

I wish the left had more of a voice in the future so that they can make all the other parties think about their positions and perhaps evolve. In recent times, it has been mostly the extreme religious right tilting everybody else to the right, not just the Republicans but also the Democrats.

Offline atlq

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Re: Ms. Palin: Be Afraid, Be Very Afraid
« Reply #99 on: October 10, 2008, 07:06:06 PM »
Rock on then...

Only one point, please.

Three times since 2002 the Congress brought the Federal Marriage Amendment through committee and to the floors of the House and Senate for votes....until Nov. of 2006. Since then? No Federal Marriage Amendment....Hmmmm ,what could have changed in November of 2006?...I'm guessing that the Democratic takeover of both  houses of Congress had a lot everything to do with this. -me


Actually it seems that there was a 2008 Marriage Protection Amendment. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Marriage_Amendment - Mad


The 2008 anmendment was introduced. Any member can introduce a bill. It didn't come to the floor for a vote. That's the difference a democratic majority makes.

O.K. , two points...

I also disagree with your point about ENDA, but hey these are not questions with answers, they are points of view...Thanks for listening and responding..

 ;D
“Keep up the good work....   And God bless you.”
  --  Sarah Palin, to members of the Alaskan Independence Party, 2008

 


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