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Author Topic: Very scared  (Read 4006 times)

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Offline Slender77

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Very scared
« on: September 04, 2008, 09:24:42 AM »
Im sorry of my english, i live in Finland.
I had a protected sex with prostitute and afterwise i noticed a bleeding pimple on the shaft of my penis.
It wasnt covered with condom. Do i have risk if vaginal fluids has contacted the pimple surface ?

Thanks

Offline jkinatl2

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Re: Very scared
« Reply #1 on: September 04, 2008, 10:47:01 AM »
Protected sex is just that, protected. Pimple or no pimple, you were not at risk for HIV infection. HIV requires very specific cells in order to infect. These cells are primarily found in the opening at the head of the penis. This opening was protected by the condom. You had no HIV risk int he incident as described.

"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

Welcome Thread

Offline Slender77

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Re: Very scared
« Reply #2 on: September 05, 2008, 02:03:42 AM »
Thanks for your reply  :)

So if the head of my penis was protected , it doesn't matter if there was a open pimple entering vagina.

So no need to test because of this ?

Offline jkinatl2

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Re: Very scared
« Reply #3 on: September 05, 2008, 04:32:11 AM »
No need to test.
"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

Welcome Thread

Offline Slender77

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Re: Very scared
« Reply #4 on: September 05, 2008, 07:26:26 AM »
Thanks Jt

im so scared because it was bleeding and the condom didnt cover it.
 and i had sex with prostitute + i have read too much internet posts about the infection....


Offline jkinatl2

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Re: Very scared
« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2008, 07:29:40 AM »
I am sorry you are scared. Protected sex is just that, protected.

It is not who you are with (i.e. a prostitute) it is what you do that can put you at risl for HIV infection. You used a condom. You had no risk.

No risk.

No need to test.

"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

Welcome Thread

Offline Slender77

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Re: Very scared
« Reply #6 on: September 05, 2008, 08:47:29 AM »
thanks,

maybe i can relax now little bit

Offline Slender77

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Re: Very scared
« Reply #7 on: September 05, 2008, 11:17:17 AM »
im sorry, but one question :

why different forums say that  it is possible to get infection if fluids are contacting cut etc.

Im sorry, if im bothering still.

Offline jkinatl2

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Re: Very scared
« Reply #8 on: September 05, 2008, 11:22:11 AM »
I cannot refute every other site on the internet. Sadly, many of them use outdated or simply incorrect information.

This site relies on the most current first tiered, peer-reviewed scientific data available. It is why I choose to post here. It is why I recommend it to others.

It is grounded in science, and has the footnotes and data to prove it. Sadly, other sites rarely make the same claim.

"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

Welcome Thread

Offline Slender77

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Re: Very scared
« Reply #9 on: September 05, 2008, 11:24:19 AM »
thanks for ur help,
i appreciate it lot and trust u.
Thanks :)

Offline Star1826

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Re: Very scared
« Reply #10 on: September 07, 2008, 10:09:37 PM »
i had a similar incident before where i had tiny nicks or possible sores or abrasians on the base of my penis not covered by the condom. The information i received from this site let me relax. However "jkinatl2" could you please explain why such a situation would be no risk because i have read even little breaks in skin allow vaginal fluids or blood to enter your bloodstream. I do not doubt the validity of your response or any other i have gotten from this site, however, i would  appreciate it if you or other individuals with much more knowledge on the topic could enlighten me.

Offline jkinatl2

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Re: Very scared
« Reply #11 on: September 07, 2008, 10:26:27 PM »
Due to formatting issues, the only pre-made post I have involves fingering - though it touches on saliva and cunnilingus as well. I shall endeavor to spend some hours this evening rewriting my posts regarding saliva and cunnilingus specifically, as well as seeing what new science is out there.

Here is what seems to be transferring from my desktop to this forum intact. Again, it concentrates on fingering, but leads off into a discussion of HIv transmissin science and the rather specific methods by which HIV infects CD4 cells and specific dendritic cells:

In fingering, only menstrual blood carries any significantly infectious fluids. This is because the vaginal secretions found in the vaginal walls and the opening of the vagina are relatively uninfectious. it is the cervical fluids, deeper in the vaginal area, which pose a greater infectivity risk due to a higher concentration of active HIV.

Note I use the term ACTIVE and not alive. technically, HIV is not alive. It cannot reproduce on it's own. It requires a very specific type of white blood cell to infect with it's genetic material and essentially turn into an HIV producing factory. These receptive cells are commonly found in the urethra, in the dendritic cells under an uncircumsized foreskin, in the anus, and in the vagina. To a far lessor degree, there are some in the tonsil area as well.

So we have established that even if infectious fluids got into a cut in your finger, they would have to travel through your bloodstream and encounter one of these receptive cells. Not as likely event, at all. To the point where forcing it to happen in a lab using monkeys/primates and SHIV is largely unsuccessful. In a petri dish? Perhaps. In a bipedal organism? Difficult, if not impossible to achieve.

Now, about those infectious fluids. You realize that HIV mutates constantly, correct? Part of it's difficulty as regards a cure or vaccine is this constant mutation. Not the sort of mutation that makes a blood-borne pathogen airborne, but one which, in the long run, helps it to survive. HIV wears down an immune system by stimulating an immune response once the host is infected. And the host then produces antibodies, which destroy the viral particles and infected cells that are recognized.

At this point in infection, almost all the HIV is purged temporarily from the blood. However, reservoirs in the brain, organs, and lymphatic system are still there, and they mutate just enough so that the body must re-recognize them and mount another immune defense. This goes on for years and years in most cases, until the ability of the body to mount further defenses is compromised to the point where the immune system basically collapses. During this time, the host is left more and more defenseless against common pathogens, until finally it succumbs, either to an external pathogen or an internal function that an intact immune system would otherwise regulate.

Knowing this, and keeping in mind that the virus constantly mutates, it is not a particularly efficient virus. Most of the mutations are worthless, lacking one protein or another which makes it basically inactive, unviable. It is Darwinism at a miscroscopic scale, and greatly advanced.

See, the perfect HIV, the "goal," if you will, of HIV is to infect a host and reproduce and spread without killing the host. Not due to any altruism on it's part, but a dead host can't infect others. This is why outbreaks of Ebola and Marberg viruses are almost always brief and contained. it would take much engineering to reproduce a species-killer like "The Stand." It would involve a virus behaving in a totally different fashion than any other.

So the odds of an active, VIABLE viral particle finding it's way INTO your bloodstream, finding a receptive white blood cell (dendritic and T cells) and then successfully injecting it with it's genetic material - through a cut in the FINGER which almost instantly seals itself from external danger, and which bombards the area with elements specifically dsigned to protect and heal the skin - is purely in the realm of the theoretical. Why is there so little research? because it can't be forced to happen with any regularity in a lab, in a primate, in a monkey.

It has never been documented to happen. In the real world, the one we live in, it does not happen. It is hell on wheels to even make something like that occur in a carefully monitored laboratory. Even a petri dish is no friend to HIV.

Why do some doctors and scientists still caution? Because people mired in academia are rarely in touch with the actual, quantifiable world. The notion of "theoretical risk" and 'actual risk" are merged into a single hysterical message. There is a theoretical risk that a planet-destroying asteroid will smash the earth. There is a theoretical risk that our sun will explode. I think you get my intent here.

Let me recap:

Vaginal secretions: extremely unlikely to infect even if exposed to dendritic cells. Thus, cunnilingus is not considered a viable HIV risk.

Fingers: self sealing, and not containing receptive cells which HIV needs in order to infect.

Brothel: in western and industrialized nations, sex workers have a relatively low HIv rate compared to sex workers in Africa and other industrialized nations. However, even an HIv positive female is not going to have enough active viral particles in her vaginal secretions to present a risk to a finger or a tongue.

Fingering is not a risk for HIV, and PEP/testing is not warranted for such an activity.

That's not me talking, it's the science and the epidemiology talking.

Sources:

http://www.aegis.com/news/ads/1988/ad880100.html

http://www.aegis.com/aidsline/1990/may/m9050993.html

http://www.aegis.com/conferences/iac/2002/thpec7405.html



I try to stay away from studies which rely solely on post-infection patient reports. They are notoriously unreliable, and even with multiple screenings and interview, the science is not solid. I also try to keep my patient-tracking study to within the last ten to fifteen years (as in the case of the Romero Study, where a ten year period of time was used to track serodiscordant couples). HIV transmission science is relatively new, and the means and methodology by which we are able to pinpoint what does and does not cause HIV infection was ONLY made possible by the advent of the protease inhibitor breakthrough in the mid-1990s. Prior to that, people simply did not remain healthy, and sexually active long enough post diagnosis to form a long term study.

However, I do not hesitate to use laboratory-based findings from the late 1980s and 1990s. The science which illuminated the inhibitory elements in saliva, for example, have been clarified since the original studies were published. But the initial science was sound. I am certain that as time goes on, further clarification will reinforce these initial studies.

I know that Ann has at her disposal reams of documentation regarding the female anatomy, and the specific types of fluids which are considered infectious (and why). I shall endeavor in the future to fill in my own gaps in knowledge insofar as this is concerned.

The serodiscordant studies I referenced are as follows:

http://gateway.nlm.nih.gov/MeetingAbstracts/102255339.html

An exerpt from the paper:

<<Page-Shafer et al., 1997; Vittinghoff et al., 1999; Celum et al., 2001). Keet et al.(1992) found that more than half of incident HIV infections attributed to receptive oral sex (fellatio) were misattributed due to response bias, wherein a high proportion of study participants did not report anogenital sex in written questionnaires, but later did report this practice in face-to-face interviews, leading researchers to conclude that oral acquisition of HIV occurs, but its frequency may be overestimated because of reluctance to report more stigmatized practices, including anal sex. Two more recent studies underscore the very low infectivity of HIV in association with oral sex in heterosexual and MSM populations. In a longitudinal study of serodiscordant heterosexual couples, del Romero et al.(2002) found no incident HIV infections in over 19,000 unprotected orogenital contacts with an HIV-infected partner. In a study of MSM HIV testers in San Francisco who practiced only oral sex (Page-Shafer et al., 2002), no prevalent or incident HIV infections were detected in an estimated 1519 person-years of risk exposure (Balls et al., 2004).>>

source:

http://adr.iadrjournals.org/cgi/content/full/19/1/152

Also:

http://lib.bioinfo.pl/pmid:16700731

http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/mksg/odi/2006/00000012/00000003/art00002


You will note that almost ALL of the oral sex transmission studies have focused on fellatio, specifically receptive fellatio (swallowing seme) - though not to the exclusion of cunnilingus. The reason being, there is simply NO documentation which suggests that cunnilingus is a viable HIv transmission vector. And the absolute dearth of subjects to study makes such specific experiments nearly impossible.

I do not know if all this is too much information. And I do not know if even armed with the science, your fears will be assuaged, Fear, I note, is immune to reason in many cases. However, the science is all I have to work with.

"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

Welcome Thread

Offline Slender77

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Re: Very scared
« Reply #12 on: September 08, 2008, 03:04:29 AM »
Thanks Jkinatl !
 One question more:

If there was some puss in the pimple and the puss contains white cells , does it increase the risk?

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: Very scared
« Reply #13 on: September 08, 2008, 03:47:13 AM »
All pus consists of white cells, typically B cells. The presence or absence of pus does not increase or decrease the risk of HIV transmission.

MtD

Offline Star1826

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Re: Very scared
« Reply #14 on: September 09, 2008, 01:32:46 AM »
Dear jkinatl2 thanks for your lengthy and informative response. However, it is primarily based on fingering, thus, i wouldn't a tiny cut, sore, or break in skin by the genital region not covered by the condom be at much more risk than your finger?

Offline jkinatl2

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Re: Very scared
« Reply #15 on: September 09, 2008, 02:12:14 AM »
HIV has never been documented to have been transmitted through small cuts in the finger or cuticle, or in any manner of fingering.


"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

Welcome Thread

Offline Star1826

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Re: Very scared
« Reply #16 on: September 09, 2008, 03:18:14 AM »
I believe you jkinatl2 but would having a tiny cut or break in skin on the shaft of the penis like the original poster's situation put him at more risk than a fingering incident. Because in his situation he had a bleeding pimple or open wound on the shaft of his penis. I myself have had sex with a prostitute with a condom and could have had possible breaks in skin although no actively bleeding around teh base of my penis not covered by the condom. Would the risk of blood or vaginal secretions be of greater risk at those parts of the anatomy compared to the finger or are both cases no risk?

Offline RapidRod

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Re: Very scared
« Reply #17 on: September 09, 2008, 04:17:58 AM »
Star1826, take the time and read the posting guidelines found in the "Welcome" thread. DO NOT post in any other thread other than your own.

Offline Slender77

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Re: Very scared
« Reply #18 on: September 17, 2008, 02:56:25 AM »
thank you all for your answers.
My mind is playing tricks with me:
Sadly  i was drunk when all mentioned above happened and now i can't stop thinking if condom rolled up exposing the "danger area" of my penis. I can remember that condom was attached when i pulled my penis out but thats all :(

Offline RapidRod

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Re: Very scared
« Reply #19 on: September 17, 2008, 03:00:23 AM »
A condom can't roll that far without falling off. The head of your penis was covered and that's all that matters.

Offline Slender77

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Re: Very scared
« Reply #20 on: September 22, 2008, 04:05:23 AM »
Thank you all for your answers. I appreciate it a lot.
So to sum it up, should i get tested because of this or is it unncessary ?
I leave in very small village and the nearest test possibility is in city far away.

Offline RapidRod

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Re: Very scared
« Reply #21 on: September 22, 2008, 04:50:55 AM »
No you do not need testing.

 


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