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Author Topic: OK... I'm getting mad at Bill and Hillary (again)  (Read 7426 times)

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Offline Miss Philicia

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OK... I'm getting mad at Bill and Hillary (again)
« on: August 25, 2008, 10:46:50 AM »
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0808/12782.html

... seems that they're fully committed to making this convention as messy as possible.  Nothing like losing.

And before someone tells me that the mainstream media is conjuring up drama (which I agree they love) keep in mind that Clinton henchmen Paul Begala and James Carville aren't helping smooth things over in the media -- if the Clintons wanted to reign them in they could snap their fingers, but they aren't.  Both Begala and Carville have been making questionable snide comments for days on CNN.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2008, 11:01:31 AM by philly267 »
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Offline Dachshund

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Re: OK... I'm getting mad at Bill and Hillary (again)
« Reply #1 on: August 25, 2008, 11:03:59 AM »
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0808/12782.html

... seems that they're fully committed to making this convention as messy as possible.  Nothing like losing.

Oh honey, don't believe those hacks at Politico. Granted there are some disgruntled Clitonistas out there, but the majority of this nonsense is a manufactured pundit wet dream. Cable news got nothin' without some manufactured nonsense. Heaven help them if they discussed policy. Never fear, Hill's supporters will back Obama.

Expect more of this until November.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUpssQz2sTw
« Last Edit: August 25, 2008, 11:08:51 AM by Dachshund »

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: OK... I'm getting mad at Bill and Hillary (again)
« Reply #2 on: August 25, 2008, 11:14:41 AM »
Never fear, Hill's supporters will back Obama.


I'm starting to question how much of this will materialize after reading internal numbers from recent polls.  It's been almost 3 months since Hillary threw the towel in and still 50% of her supporters aren't on board.

I hate to say it, but it also seems to be the +50 y.o. crowd, which translates into "we can't vote for a black man" and that's not easily reversible unless we bleach Barack's skin and change his nose a la Michael Jackson.

Like I said, Begala and Carville are out there stirring up drama and I can't imagine them doing this without shooting orders from above.  It's quite disappointing actually.
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Offline atlq

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Re: OK... I'm getting mad at Bill and Hillary (again)
« Reply #3 on: August 25, 2008, 11:23:47 AM »
Never fear, Hill's supporters will back Obama.


When? These polls of HC supporters are starting to accumulate and the press is already forming its fall "theme" for the Obama candidacy -i.e. "the divided party/Obama can't "close the deal" (whatever that means). These things do matter, because they drive public perception. As Philly said, this has been over for three months now. If a Hillary Clinton supporter could explain to me how someone who voted for Hillary Clinton (and therefore supported her policy positions, I assume), could now seriously be supporting the McCain candidacy, I would be grateful for the insight..... ???


“Keep up the good work....   And God bless you.”
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Offline Dachshund

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Re: OK... I'm getting mad at Bill and Hillary (again)
« Reply #4 on: August 25, 2008, 11:31:08 AM »
Just released by Obama/Clinton.

We understand that some in the news media are more interested in reporting the rumor of controversy than the fact of unity. The fact is that our teams are working closely to ensure a successful convention and will continue to do so. Senator and President Clinton fully support the Obama/Biden ticket and look forward to addressing the convention and the nation on the urgency of victory this Fall. Anyone saying anything else doesn't know what they're talking about. Period.

Offline woodshere

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Re: OK... I'm getting mad at Bill and Hillary (again)
« Reply #5 on: August 25, 2008, 11:34:10 AM »
Never fear, Hill's supporters will back Obama.

When? These polls of HC supporters are starting to accumulate and the press is already forming its fall "theme" for the Obama candidacy -i.e. "the divided party/Obama can't "close the deal" (whatever that means). These things do matter, because they drive public perception. As Philly said, this has been over for three months now. If a Hillary Clinton supporter could explain to me how someone who voted for Hillary Clinton (and therefore supported her policy positions, I assume), could now seriously be supporting the McCain candidacy, I would be grateful for the insight..... ???

At the risk of being ridiculed and crucified I will try to explain why I as a Clinton supporter, am having a very difficult time supporting Obama.  Before starting let me say that I will never vote for a Republican in any national or statewide election.  I have been a Clinton supporter for years.  In this year's presidential race Obama was my fourth choice after Clinton, Richardson and Biden.  If I thought Richardson had any type of a chance he would have been my number one pick, yes as hard as it is to believe even over Clinton. The policies of each candidate excluding Kucinich were pretty much the same, so it comes down to a personal choice.  For me i want to see a qualified woman as president.  I think serving as First Lady for 8 years gave her vast insight into the job that none of the others had and she is a fighter. She is a known quantity, there is not much else that can be dug up or thrown at her and lord knows the opposition will throw anything and everything at us.  Having attended the Democratic campaign kickoff in 2006 for Jefferson County and heard Obama speak he is perhaps the best speaker I have ever heard, but after that there isn't much for me to get behind.  He has high ideas but does he have the clout and know how to pull it off.  Finally it does have a lot to do with disappointment.  If you support someone for years and truly believe she is going to become president because is the most qualified person only to see it not happen in an epic primary it is hard to get over.

I am weighing not voting at all in the presidential race.  Since the election is actually decided by electoral votes casting a vote for Obama in Kentucky will do absolutely nothing to help him win the election.  However if you don't vote you can't bitch, and I do love to bitch, so I will in the end vote for Obama.  But please don't get on me about the difficulty I have in supporting my 4th choice in the Democratic Primary as our party's nominee.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2008, 12:06:37 PM by woodshere »
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Offline atlq

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Re: OK... I'm getting mad at Bill and Hillary (again)
« Reply #6 on: August 25, 2008, 11:44:32 AM »
Dachshund,

My comment is not directed at HRC or even some members of her staff. I am sure they are saying the right things and attempting to persuade.
My comment is directed toward these folks:

From CNN:

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/08/24/election.2008.poll/?iref=mpstoryview

 
Both John McCain and Barack Obama had the support of 47 percent of people questioned in the CNN poll.

 1 of 2  The first national poll conducted after Barack Obama publicly named Joe Biden as his running mate suggests that the battle for the presidency between the Illinois senator and John McCain is all tied up.

In a new CNN/Opinion Research Corp. poll released Sunday night, 47 percent of those questioned are backing Obama, the presumptive Democratic presidential nominees, with an equal amount supporting his Republican opponent, McCain.

"This looks like a step backward for Obama, who had a 51 to 44 percent advantage last month," said CNN Polling Director Keating Holland. "Even last week, just before his choice of Joe Biden as his running mate became known, most polls tended to show Obama with a single-digit advantage over McCain."

So what's the difference now?

It may be supporters of Hillary Clinton, who still would prefer the New York senator and former first lady as the Democratic Party's presidential nominee.  Watch are Clinton backers on board? »

Sixty-six percent of Clinton supporters -- registered Democrats who want Clinton as the nominee -- are now backing Obama. That's down from 75 percent in the end of June. Twenty-seven percent of them now say they'll support McCain, up from 16 percent in late June.



Only 66%.....This is the reason were looking at a dead heat now. With the economy, the war, and Bush's approval rating, Obama should be up by 8-10 points now.

So again I'll ask Clinton/McCain folks. What is it about McCain that makes him your second choice after HRC? I really wanna know....


edited-typo...
“Keep up the good work....   And God bless you.”
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Offline Dachshund

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Re: OK... I'm getting mad at Bill and Hillary (again)
« Reply #7 on: August 25, 2008, 12:31:46 PM »
I wouldn't put much stock in that pundit driven narrative. Let's see what the delegates themselves have to say about it. As for polls, as of today Obama holds a lead over McCain with likely voters, as he has done since becoming the presumptive nominee. Rarely, if never mentioned in the MSM. Short of a bomb shell I sincerely believe Obama will win going away. The polls right now are pretty useless, wait until both conventions are over and America starts to pay attention. Don't forget how wrong the polls were in the primaries.

Still, more than 80 percent of the delegates surveyed said they enthusiastically supported Mr. Obama, and about as many (including more than two-thirds of Mrs. Clinton’s pledged delegates) were confident he would win the election. Majorities across all regions except the South said Mr. Obama held an edge in their state.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/25/us/politics/25delegatesweb.html?_r=1&adxnnl=1&oref=slogin&ref=politics&adxnnlx=1219681133-7i2ngLW5Nc+3odww/6utrg

edited for typo
« Last Edit: August 25, 2008, 12:34:43 PM by Dachshund »

Offline Buckmark

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Re: OK... I'm getting mad at Bill and Hillary (again)
« Reply #8 on: August 25, 2008, 01:04:41 PM »

So again I'll ask Clinton/McCain folks. What is it about McCain that makes him your second choice after HRC? I really wanna know....



If you get a good answer to this question, please give it to the DNC, as I'm sure they'd love to know.  My view is like Philly has stated above:  the over-50 crowd just can't bring themselves to vote for an African American.  Sigh.  But perhaps I'm wrong -- perhaps there is some other reason that Clinton supporters are turned off by Obama.

I think Hillary could be doing a lot more in terms of party unity, and throwing her support behind Obama.  She hasn't seemed very vocal or enthusiastic in this regard.  She needs to ask herself if she wants a Democrat or a Republican in the White House.  Her role could be pivotal in this, and right now I don't she is really committed to it.

I support Obama, but I do think he comes off as a bit of a blowhard in his speeches sometimes, and a bit wishy-wash when pressed on difficult issues.  As Woodsy points out, he has big ideas but I don't get the sense that he has what he needs to translate them into realitiy.  Perhaps Biden might be able to help him out in these regards.  But I still have a sinking feeling that McCain is going to win.  :-[

Regards,

Henry
« Last Edit: August 25, 2008, 01:09:17 PM by BuckmarkTX »
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Offline woodshere

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Re: OK... I'm getting mad at Bill and Hillary (again)
« Reply #9 on: August 25, 2008, 01:26:06 PM »
I think Hillary could be doing a lot more in terms of party unity, and throwing her support behind Obama.  She hasn't seemed very vocal or enthusiastic in this regard.  She needs to ask herself if she wants a Democrat or a Republican in the White House.  Her role could be pivotal in this, and right now I don't she is really committed to it.

I am not sure what more she can do.  She appeared at a rally with him in July, campaigned for him in Florida and somewhere else, put statements out, ask her donors to contribute to his campaign and released her delegates to vote for Obama  this week.  When Gore lost in 2000 he dropped out of sight for a year or so before making a come back.  She, the winner of the most primary votes in history other than Obama, is being asked to immediately campaign for the man who kept her from being the nominee and most likely the first female president of the United States.  I think she is doing a most admirable job.  In the end this election will not be determined by Hillary or Bill, but by Obama. 

Let's not forget where Obama was this time last year.  He has a tremendous campaign staff. Which has me thinking if man can put together an administration half as good as a campaign staff that beat the Clinton machine, he must have something going for him.
"Let us give pubicity to HV/AIDS and not hide it..." "One of the things destroying people with AIDS is the stigma we attach to it."   Nelson Mandela

Offline Iggy

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Re: OK... I'm getting mad at Bill and Hillary (again)
« Reply #10 on: August 25, 2008, 01:44:22 PM »
I share Atlq's point and question about this issue.  

I can appreciate being disappointed in your candidate losing the primary, but it seems like sour grapes and spite at this point sans a good explanation of why McCain speaks more for the platform promoted by Hillary's then Obama.

I'm hoping that her and Bill's speeches at the convention focus on rallying her supporters to the Obama/Biden ticket.  If she and Bill are anything less then clear during their respective convention appearances that it's time for their followers to fall in line, I would consider her partially responsible for a McCain win.

Woods - I'm not ridiculing nor crucifying you on your view, but I do shake my head at your reasoning.  As someone who also originally supported Hillary, I can't understand why someone who supported Hillary wouldn't see anything less then a vote for Obama as aiding McCain.  

I think back to 2000 when I knew a lot of people who decided that they were going to vote Nader as a sort of protest vote while not technically supporting a Republican candidate - not many of them would admit to this AFTER the W took the White House. Please seriously consider carefully your potential vote/nonvote in this regard.

Quote
I wouldn't put much stock in that pundit driven narrative.

Everything in an election is pundit driven narrative - including this very discussion.


Offline atlq

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Re: OK... I'm getting mad at Bill and Hillary (again)
« Reply #11 on: August 25, 2008, 02:12:46 PM »
 
Still, more than 80 percent of the delegates surveyed said they enthusiastically supported Mr. Obama, and about as many (including more than two-thirds of Mrs. Clinton’s pledged delegates) were confident he would win the election. Majorities across all regions except the South said Mr. Obama held an edge in their state.



You are saying that its not a cause for concern when 20% of the delegates to Democratic National Convention are saying they don't enthusiastically support the nominee? I respectfully disagree....Democrats are lazy. We don't vote in as high a percentage as Republicans do. Therefore Obama needs a larger percentage of Dem support than McCain needs from the GOP base. Hillary has released her delegates. The nomination should be unanimous, not some 80/20 count which will give the media their story for Sept...

And Woodsie, I hear ya...as I said, my main beef isn't with HRC, but with some of her braintrust who seem to want to enshrine the Clinton legacy at the expense of everything else, including a victory this fall.....

Hillary Clinton is the Senior Senator from New York (for life if she wants it).

She will be shaping our public policy for years to come and will be a key player in the health care discussions particularly (Obama has already adopted most of her ideas).

Her supporters need to get through "healing" and start helping...or we all all gonna need some healing from a third Bush term....
“Keep up the good work....   And God bless you.”
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Offline Dachshund

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Re: OK... I'm getting mad at Bill and Hillary (again)
« Reply #12 on: August 25, 2008, 02:14:35 PM »
Everything in an election is pundit driven narrative - including this very discussion.

Spoken like a true pundit trying to direct the narrative.  ;D There's plenty of information out there not driven by the punditocracy, it's just easier to spout talking points heard in passing on cable.

Don't worry ladies, it's all good.

Offline GSOgymrat

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Re: OK... I'm getting mad at Bill and Hillary (again)
« Reply #13 on: August 25, 2008, 02:15:07 PM »
My sister was for Clinton but won't vote for Obama. I asked why and she said she didn't trust Obama because she feels he is "just saying anything to get elected. He tries to tell every group what they want to hear." She says she is voting for Ron Paul.

I'm planning on voting for Obama.

Offline Dachshund

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Re: OK... I'm getting mad at Bill and Hillary (again)
« Reply #14 on: August 25, 2008, 02:29:45 PM »
The New York senator was quick to put Republican John McCain in her sights, saying the de facto GOP nominee was running ads using her words to try to divide the Democrats.

Clinton's response: "I'm Hillary Clinton, and I do not approve that message."

Offline Winiroo

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Re: OK... I'm getting mad at Bill and Hillary (again)
« Reply #15 on: August 25, 2008, 02:31:43 PM »
I hate change so picking a new president is never easy for me. I was ok with Hillary because I felt at least I knew what I was going to get.

I still have no clue who I like better to vote for. Both of them are scary unknowns. Its almost like a gamble in my head.

Offline atlq

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Offline woodshere

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Re: OK... I'm getting mad at Bill and Hillary (again)
« Reply #17 on: August 25, 2008, 02:51:51 PM »
I wonder if the names were reversed the conversation would be about how Obama supporters aren't entirely backing Clinton.  Conventions are nothing but shows these days and for the CNN's of the industry to have something to cover for 4 days they have to find non-stories to fill the time.  I imagine next week it will be about how Evangelicals are having a hard time getting behind McCain.
"Let us give pubicity to HV/AIDS and not hide it..." "One of the things destroying people with AIDS is the stigma we attach to it."   Nelson Mandela

Offline atlq

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Re: OK... I'm getting mad at Bill and Hillary (again)
« Reply #18 on: August 25, 2008, 03:00:38 PM »
I wonder if the names were reversed the conversation would be about how Obama supporters aren't entirely backing Clinton.  Conventions are nothing but shows these days and for the CNN's of the industry to have something to cover for 4 days they have to find non-stories to fill the time.  I imagine next week it will be about how Evangelicals are having a hard time getting behind McCain.

All true Woodman. And if the situation was reversed my Clinton freak flag would be flyin'.....but Obama is the nominee and some ( an uncomfortably large some) Clinton supporters need to not only accept that, but embrace the Obama nomination for the possibilities it will provide..

As for the McCain and the Evangelicals...from your lips to God's ears (said this atheist...) ;D
“Keep up the good work....   And God bless you.”
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Offline atlq

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Re: OK... I'm getting mad at Bill and Hillary (again)
« Reply #19 on: August 25, 2008, 03:01:04 PM »
Woodman...hehehe... ;D
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Offline Dachshund

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Re: OK... I'm getting mad at Bill and Hillary (again)
« Reply #20 on: August 25, 2008, 03:12:30 PM »
I wonder if the names were reversed the conversation would be about how Obama supporters aren't entirely backing Clinton.  Conventions are nothing but shows these days and for the CNN's of the industry to have something to cover for 4 days they have to find non-stories to fill the time.  I imagine next week it will be about how Evangelicals are having a hard time getting behind McCain.

I wonder how much of the shadow convention in Minneapolis Ron Paul is having will be covered by the press? Ron Paul, who is not even invited to the Republican Convention, while the Clinton's occupy two speaking slots at the Democratic Convention.

Offline woodshere

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Re: OK... I'm getting mad at Bill and Hillary (again)
« Reply #21 on: August 25, 2008, 03:24:45 PM »
I wonder how much of the shadow convention in Minneapolis Ron Paul is having will be covered by the press? Ron Paul, who is not even invited to the Republican Convention, while the Clinton's occupy two speaking slots at the Democratic Convention.

Well I will say this Republicans have always known how to put on a good show.  I am hoping this year we will finally get it right.

Also, this Hillary quote:

Clinton said part of her job at the convention will be letting those delegates know "that however they decide to vote, we will all be united behind Senator Obama."
"There is no doubt in anyone's mind that this is Barack Obama's convention," she said, adding that it is only natural for there to be some lingering issues to resolve after a tough primary.
"It would have been the same way if I had won and Barack was here supporting the unity of the party," she said. "This was a hard-fought campaign and there was a lot of intensity and passion associated with it, in part because of the historic nature of our two candidacies."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080825/ap_on_el_pr/cvn_clinton
"Let us give pubicity to HV/AIDS and not hide it..." "One of the things destroying people with AIDS is the stigma we attach to it."   Nelson Mandela

Offline atlq

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Re: OK... I'm getting mad at Bill and Hillary (again)
« Reply #22 on: August 25, 2008, 03:38:07 PM »
Also from that story...House Speaker Pelosi


"But to stay wallowing in all of this is not productive," she said. "So we can talk about this forever, or we can talk about how we're going to take our message to the American people, to women all across America, to see the distinctions" between Obama and Republican candidate John McCain.



Word...
“Keep up the good work....   And God bless you.”
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Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: OK... I'm getting mad at Bill and Hillary (again)
« Reply #23 on: August 25, 2008, 09:28:44 PM »
... and the view from Glasgow!

The unlikeliest political comeback in history
IAIN MacWHIRTER   August 25 2008

It seems incredible, but as the Democrats gather in Denver to anoint Barack Obama, America could be on course to re-elect a Republican as their President. Not just any Republican either, but a belligerent 71-year-old who can't remember how many houses he owns, would happily nuke Iran and whose answer to global warming is to drill for oil in environmentally sensitive areas off the coast of America which don't even have much oil. But according to the polls, John McCain is drawing level with Barack Obama, and even pulling ahead.

Really, America is a strange, strange country. After a disastrous and illegal war, in which 4000 American soldiers have died, in the middle of an economic crisis largely caused by the investment houses that finance the Republican party, you would have thought it almost inconceivable that the Republicans could be re-elected. Could any political brand be more toxic? Has any party in history deserved to be thrown out at an election more than the Republicans in 2008?

George W Bush has been recognised even by many neo-conservatives as the worst US President in modern history. Ten million people risk losing their homes over the next two years as a result of the credit crunch. Real wages have been declining in America for the past five years. The country is awash with credit card debt.

America's image in the world, so vibrant after 9/11, has been seriously tarnished by a series of epic foreign policy mistakes under the Republicans, the worst of which is, of course, Iraq. Yet enough American voters believe that John McCain might have the answers for him to become a serious contender. Which is scary. McCain is not an unknown quantity - he is a highly excitable politician with a notoriously short temper, who would bring his impetuous and confrontational style into American foreign policy. With the world entering a global economic slump, and old enmities raging in Europe, John McCain as President would be like a flamethrower in a fireworks factory.

click here for remaining article
"I’ve slept with enough men to know that I’m not gay"

Offline atlq

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Re: OK... I'm getting mad at Bill and Hillary (again)
« Reply #24 on: August 25, 2008, 09:47:00 PM »

The unlikeliest political comeback in history
IAIN MacWHIRTER   August 25 2008

It seems incredible, but as the Democrats gather in Denver to anoint Barack Obama, America could be on course to re-elect a Republican as their President. Not just any Republican either, but a belligerent 71-year-old who can't remember how many houses he owns, would happily nuke Iran and whose answer to global warming is to drill for oil in environmentally sensitive areas off the coast of America which don't even have much oil. But according to the polls, John McCain is drawing level with Barack Obama, and even pulling ahead.

Really, America is a strange, strange country. After a disastrous and illegal war, in which 4000 American soldiers have died, in the middle of an economic crisis largely caused by the investment houses that finance the Republican party, you would have thought it almost inconceivable that the Republicans could be re-elected. Could any political brand be more toxic? Has any party in history deserved to be thrown out at an election more than the Republicans in 2008?

George W Bush has been recognised even by many neo-conservatives as the worst US President in modern history. Ten million people risk losing their homes over the next two years as a result of the credit crunch. Real wages have been declining in America for the past five years. The country is awash with credit card debt.

America's image in the world, so vibrant after 9/11, has been seriously tarnished by a series of epic foreign policy mistakes under the Republicans, the worst of which is, of course, Iraq. Yet enough American voters believe that John McCain might have the answers for him to become a serious contender. Which is scary. McCain is not an unknown quantity - he is a highly excitable politician with a notoriously short temper, who would bring his impetuous and confrontational style into American foreign policy. With the world entering a global economic slump, and old enmities raging in Europe, John McCain as President would be like a flamethrower in a fireworks factory.

click here for remaining article


Well Philly, maybe after 8 years of McCain/Romney those embittered HRC/now McCain supporters will have "healed" and be ready to join the Democratic Party again....
“Keep up the good work....   And God bless you.”
  --  Sarah Palin, to members of the Alaskan Independence Party, 2008

Offline bocker3

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Re: OK... I'm getting mad at Bill and Hillary (again)
« Reply #25 on: August 25, 2008, 10:01:34 PM »
Whatever happens this week is likely to hold fairly little significance come November (well, except for the official nominating, of course).  Americans, as a whole, have a pretty short memory.  I put little significance on the poll we see flying around today also.  Will some Hillary supporters not vote for Obama because he is black -- absolutely.  The same is true of some Richardson supporters and some Edwards supporters and perhaps even some Biden supporters.  People vote based on a whole host of reasons -- many of them aren't necessarily for reasons that will ultimately provide any benefit for the person voting.
Not voting for Obama because he is black is, in my mind, nuts.  However, voting for Obama simply because he is a Democrat is nuts also (on a different plane than discrimination for sure, but still nuts).  I voted for Hillary and will absolutely vote for Obama in November.  Not because he is a Democrat, but because his positions seem to be more in line with my way of thinking (and, honestly, because I don't like the positions of McCain in most cases).  I certainly vote for the Democratic candidate far more frequently than the Republican, but I do not base my vote on the (D) after someone's name.  A couple notable (R)'s who have received my vote in the past are William Weld and Claudine Schneider (she's probably not well known outside RI -- but represented the state in Congress for a number of years).
What I'm hearing here is people assuming that because someone supported Hillary, they should automatically support Obama due to the (D) -- why?
This convention should NOT be about the Clintons, yet the media and this thread are making it so.  This convention should be about Obama beginning to add more substance to his positions, so that people feel compelled to vote for him based on them (not solely to vote "against" McCain and not solely because he is the Democrat).  I certainly hope that he uses his amazing gifts this week to help pull people to him, rather than relying on Hillary to push people his way.  I think he has the capacity to do this, I only hope he doesn't let his handlers stand in the way.  I would like to see a different campaign, one that is less concerned with being "on message" and more concerned with discussing and addressing the concerns of the American public.  If he does this, I can't see how he loses.  I firmly believe that McCain can not win this election, but Obama certainly can lose it.  Hillary won't lose it for Obama and Bill won't lose it for Obama -- only Obama can lose it.

Mike
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Offline atlq

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Re: OK... I'm getting mad at Bill and Hillary (again)
« Reply #26 on: August 25, 2008, 10:07:08 PM »
What I'm hearing here is people assuming that because someone supported Hillary, they should automatically support Obama due to the (D) -- why?


Because the vast majority of them are Democrats and he is the Democratic Party nominee?....
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Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: OK... I'm getting mad at Bill and Hillary (again)
« Reply #27 on: August 25, 2008, 10:26:34 PM »

This convention should NOT be about the Clintons, yet the media and this thread are making it so.  

riiiiiiiiight.  My thread is responsible for Paul Begala and James Carville carrying out marching orders.  (re-read the OP)

Got it.
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Offline Solo_LTSurvivor

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Re: OK... I'm getting mad at Bill and Hillary (again)
« Reply #28 on: August 25, 2008, 11:37:48 PM »
And to throw another view to be killed over into the mix.

No doubt all of these staunch supporters of the "experienced" one who lost the nomination have never lived in New York State.  When I stopped exploding after it was revealed she was running for the Senate in a state she knew absolutely nothing about, I knew it was little more than a dress rehearsal for her run for the White House.  She got no assistance from me when it came to voting her in, and did not get any support from me on Super Tuesday at our primary.  I have no problem saying that if I ever see her again, it will be too soon because she doesn't care about any of us here in NY.

For everyone still blowing the horn that she's accomplished so much in her lifetime that she was entitled to be the next president, please tell me what she has done for the people here in New York, other than tell lies and do absolutely nothing?  She apparently still has the power because she has tons of you snowed over with the smoke and mirrors since so many of you feel you were cheated when she had to suspend her campaign. 

It's horrible that people in this day and age will hide behind any excuse rather than admit they are prejudiced against the color of someone's skin.  Just like one of the posters stated here that Obama allegedly ripped off Hellary's policies.  Why can't you just admit that the two of them might just have similar views, and as much as you hate it, since he believes in the same issues as the MESSiah that failed, you will at least get someone who will attempt to put those beliefs into action?  You should also realize that neither of the Clintons are willing to bow out gracefully, otherwise they would do everything within their power to bring an end to all of the dissension that is distracting and fogging people's process to think clearly.  I wouldn't put it past Hellary to have hired those three men who were arrested in Denver tonight with rifles.

And before you get started, I didn't vote for Obama either on Super Tuesday.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2008, 11:43:02 PM by Solo_LTSurvivor »
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Offline atlq

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Re: OK... I'm getting mad at Bill and Hillary (again)
« Reply #29 on: August 25, 2008, 11:45:48 PM »
 


 

  otherwise they would do everything within their power to bring an end to all of the dissension that is distracting and fogging people's process to think clearly.  I wouldn't put it past Hellary to have hired those three men who were arrested in Denver tonight with rifles.

 

Solo,


With all due respect, those comments are way out of line. Whatever  any of us believe about this issue, Hillary Clinton is an honorable person who deserves respect for running a hard race.
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Offline edfu

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Re: OK... I'm getting mad at Bill and Hillary (again)
« Reply #30 on: August 26, 2008, 06:00:35 AM »
Hillary and Bill (and their contentious supporters and hangers-on) remind me of nothing so much as those Japanese soldiers discovered hiding out on remote South Pacific islands years after Word War II ended, refusing to surrender or admit defeat.  Their poltical legacies are besmirched now beyond repair.   It is beyond shameful what they are now doing to damage Obama's chances.  What is worse, knowing how they operate, we know the worst of it is happening behind the scenes, and all public statements to the contrary.     

   
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Offline atlq

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Re: OK... I'm getting mad at Bill and Hillary (again)
« Reply #31 on: August 26, 2008, 07:01:45 AM »
Hillary and Bill (and their contentious supporters and hangers-on) remind me of nothing so much as those Japanese soldiers discovered hiding out on remote South Pacific islands years after Word War II ended, refusing to surrender or admit defeat.  Their poltical legacies are besmirched now beyond repair.   It is beyond shameful what they are now doing to damage Obama's chances.  What is worse, knowing how they operate, we know the worst of it is happening behind the scenes, and all public statements to the contrary.     

   

Sorry, but I can't go there either. It seems like some supporters on both sides are still fighting a war that is over. My only point is that doing things like supporting McCain (and deriding the Clintons) are acts of irrationality that serve no purpose at this point. Forward, people.....
 


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Offline bocker3

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Re: OK... I'm getting mad at Bill and Hillary (again)
« Reply #32 on: August 26, 2008, 07:55:26 AM »
What I'm hearing here is people assuming that because someone supported Hillary, they should automatically support Obama due to the (D) -- why?


Because the vast majority of them are Democrats and he is the Democratic Party nominee?....

And so one should support the (D) candidate even if you don't think he is the best choice?  (Note, I AM voting for Obama, so I am speaking in wider voice here). 
I know that there are folks who are still pissed off over Hillary's loss and saying that is why they will vote for McCain or not vote at all.  After her speech and come November it is likely that a vast number of them will ultimately pull for Obama.  There are also those who will never vote for a black man -- not much either of the Clinton's can do about those people though.  However, we should give some of them the benefit of the doubt and realize that they may really feel that without Hillary in the mix, they feel McCain is a better choice.  Again - I don't agree with them, but it is possible and probable that there are those that do.

I will stand by my argument that blindly pulling voting levers based on party affiliation alone is both dangerous and lazy.

Mike
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Offline bocker3

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Re: OK... I'm getting mad at Bill and Hillary (again)
« Reply #33 on: August 26, 2008, 07:59:15 AM »
riiiiiiiiight.  My thread is responsible for Paul Begala and James Carville carrying out marching orders.  (re-read the OP)

Got it.

Oh Pish....

You know full well that my point is that everyone is creating a tempest in a teapot -- I'm sure Bagala and Carville (who are really now part of the media I included in my post) could give a rat's ass about your thread.  This sort of anger COULD be seen as people not having faith that Obama can win on his own and needs the help of the Clintons to do so.  I doubt that this is really what you think given the passion you have displayed for Obama.  Everyone should stop giving the Clintons all this power -- it really does feed the flames.

Mike
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Offline atlq

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Re: OK... I'm getting mad at Bill and Hillary (again)
« Reply #34 on: August 26, 2008, 08:20:09 AM »
And so one should support the (D) candidate even if you don't think he is the best choice?


Mike,

I  completely understand the wider point you are trying to make here man, but with all due respect, in this case it just  doesn't rationally apply.

Philly started this thread with an article about Hillary Clinton voters, many of whom(?) are now  saying they will  vote for John McCain over the Democratic nominee.

Maybe I am hopelessly optimistic, but I am still going to believe that a majority of primary voters choose a candidate based on their agreement with that candidates enunciated principles. My question was, and still is, how can a democratic primary voter go from supporting the policy positions of HRC (universal health care, an end to the Bush tax cuts for the wealthy, blah,blah, blah...) all the way over to a man who embraces the very things they profess to be against? and in doing this, skip over the candidate who supports their own views?

As to party labels not mattering? I know its a chic thing to say and believe. But it just isn't true....


who or whom?....grammar police help!...

Best...

edited for typo....

« Last Edit: August 26, 2008, 08:51:15 AM by atlq »
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Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: OK... I'm getting mad at Bill and Hillary (again)
« Reply #35 on: August 26, 2008, 10:53:40 AM »
I'd love to hear the well-considered rationale explanation for a voter to switch from Hillary Clinton to Ron Paul.  Alas, I know that one does not exist.

Gold Standard?  Like bocker says: "Oh Pish!"
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Offline Iggy

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Re: OK... I'm getting mad at Bill and Hillary (again)
« Reply #36 on: August 26, 2008, 11:31:29 AM »
However, voting for Obama simply because he is a Democrat is nuts also (on a different plane than discrimination for sure, but still nuts).  

Mike,

I agree with you in a general and a theoretical sense that no one needs to be beholden to their party's nominee. 

However Presidential elections - particularly this one - is a time to keep the focus on practical outcomes: mainly, winning.

If one is serious about taking the White House away from the Republicans, then I don't see how it can be rationalized that anything less then voting for the Democratic Party choice for President in the general election is not aiding McCain. 







Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: OK... I'm getting mad at Bill and Hillary (again)
« Reply #37 on: August 26, 2008, 12:13:44 PM »
hmmm.... source

August 26, 2008 --

GAY media czar Paul Colichman's vow in yesterday's Page Six not to support Barack Obama over the candidate's opposition to same-sex marriage has other gay media bigs aflame. "By tearing up his check for Obama, he basically wrote one to McCain," Genre editor Neal Boulton told us. "I openly - no, flamingly - endorse Obama, whether he says he's for gay marriage or not. . . . I know under Obama, it will only be a matter of time until the country sees the legalization of gay marriage." James Hipps, project manager for gay-marketing firm Vibe Media, wants gays to cancel their subscriptions to The Advocate. "I am appalled," he said. "For our gay-lesbian- bisxexual-transgender rights to continue to grow and not further diminish, then we need to stand behind [Obama]. Good luck with your life, Mr. Colichman. I hope you get to sleep well at night after McCain becomes elected. Shame on you."
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Offline atlq

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Offline AlanBama

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Re: OK... I'm getting mad at Bill and Hillary (again)
« Reply #40 on: August 26, 2008, 04:59:43 PM »
I've been watching the Convention coverage on C-Span....they just show the speakers at the podium, and/or films being shown....no commentary.   I don't think I need someone to "interpret" what was said for me, or tell me what I should think (or not think) about it.

I was a Hillary supporter, but will certainly vote for Obama.   I think he will make a great president.  I also like his wife Michelle very much.   We need some young blood in the White House.
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Offline Dachshund

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Re: OK... I'm getting mad at Bill and Hillary (again)
« Reply #41 on: August 26, 2008, 05:04:26 PM »
I've been watching the Convention coverage on C-Span....they just show the speakers at the podium, and/or films being shown....no commentary.   I don't think I need someone to "interpret" what was said for me, or tell me what I should think (or not think) about it.

I was a Hillary supporter, but will certainly vote for Obama.   I think he will make a great president.  I also like his wife Michelle very much.   We need some young blood in the White House.

Good point, I meant to bring that up. It's so much better on CSPAN without the talking heads.

Offline bocker3

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Re: OK... I'm getting mad at Bill and Hillary (again)
« Reply #42 on: August 26, 2008, 05:16:38 PM »
Mike,

I agree with you in a general and a theoretical sense that no one needs to be beholden to their party's nominee. 

However Presidential elections - particularly this one - is a time to keep the focus on practical outcomes: mainly, winning.

If one is serious about taking the White House away from the Republicans, then I don't see how it can be rationalized that anything less then voting for the Democratic Party choice for President in the general election is not aiding McCain. 

But see, this is where I will differ.  I am voting FOR Obama, not AGAINST McCain.  There have been times where I didn't like either candidate in a race and would go for the "lesser evil", but that is not the case here.  If there was a Republican running that I thought would make a better President, I would vote for him or her. 
My main points have been:
1.  Everyone is all stirred up over this, when, in the end, I am betting that the majority of "angry" Clinton supporters are going to pull for Obama (racists aside, of course) for the very reasons that ATLQ has stated in his last post to me.
2.  Obama should be giving compelling reasons to have these people vote for him, vs. having Hillary "push them" his way.  (and I think that he is trying to convince them -- it's the media and the pundits who are whipping things into a frenzy).  Hopefully the convention will be the beginning of better detailed positions that will continue to win him votes.
3.  One should always try and vote for someone and not against someone -- I know this can't always happen, but really it is the better outcome.
4.  Finally -- what is happening now and the polls we see now will, for the most part, be meaningless come Oct and Nov.

Again, I don't see how McCain can win this -- it is Obama's to win or lose and he seems to have the goods to insure he wins.

Mike
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Offline edfu

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Re: OK... I'm getting mad at Bill and Hillary (again)
« Reply #43 on: August 26, 2008, 05:33:49 PM »
Bill Clinton in Denver again undercuts Obama 
By Sam Youngman 
Posted: 08/26/08 01:47 PM [ET] 
DENVER — Bill Clinton appeared to undermine Sen. Barack Obama again Tuesday. 
The former president, speaking in Denver, posed a hypothetical question in which he seemed to suggest that that the Democratic Party was making a mistake in choosing Obama as its presidential nominee.

He said: "Suppose you're a voter, and you've got candidate X and candidate Y. Candidate X agrees with you on everything, but you don't think that candidate can deliver on anything at all. Candidate Y you agree with on about half the issues, but he can deliver. Which candidate are you going to vote for?"

Then, perhaps mindful of how his off-the-cuff remarks might be taken, Clinton added after a pause: "This has nothing to do with what's going on now."

The comments are unlikely to be taken as an innocent mistake by those Democrats who continue to be angry with the former president for, they say, not supporting the Illinois senator wholeheartedly, if not implicitly undercutting him.

The controversial comments came just hours before Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton (N.Y.), the former first lady and principal rival to Obama, was due to speak from the convention podium.

Democrats concerned about what the former president might say when he addresses the Democratic convention Wednesday night would likely have cringed at his remarks Tuesday to a group of foreign dignitaries.

The former president talked about the importance of a politician being able to deliver on his promises following an electoral victory and how voters factor in that ability to deliver when picking their candidate.

During the contentious and at times nasty nomination battle between Clinton and Obama, the Clinton campaign repeatedly pushed the question of whether Obama, a freshman senator, had the experience or the ability to deliver on his promises if elected. Clinton, they argued, was more suited to do so.
 
[From thehill.com]


And James Carville adds his 1 cent:
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/08/26/carville-dems-wasting-first-night-2/
« Last Edit: August 26, 2008, 05:39:00 PM by edfu »
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Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: OK... I'm getting mad at Bill and Hillary (again)
« Reply #44 on: August 26, 2008, 07:15:51 PM »

3.  One should always try and vote for someone and not against someone -- I know this can't always happen, but really it is the better outcome.

I disagree -- the lesser two evils often factors into voting, as well idiotic emotional clap trap like "Obama denied the women's turn regardless of the historical fact that black men gained the vote years before white women.

Sorry, they're just REALLY BITTER and will have no future DNC pull going forward after this convention, which is their choice.  Too bad they have to so loud.

Half of the PUMA groups are McCain plants and instigators.  All so Rovian.
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Offline thunter34

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Re: OK... I'm getting mad at Bill and Hillary (again)
« Reply #45 on: August 26, 2008, 10:48:52 PM »
But see, this is where I will differ.  I am voting FOR Obama, not AGAINST McCain. 

I'm in the terrific spot of doing both with a single vote.   :)
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Offline BlueMoon

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Re: OK... I'm getting mad at Bill and Hillary (again)
« Reply #46 on: August 27, 2008, 01:01:45 AM »
Bill Clinton in Denver again undercuts Obama 

DENVER — Bill Clinton appeared to undermine Sen. Barack Obama again Tuesday. 
The former president, speaking in Denver, posed a hypothetical question in which he seemed to suggest that that the Democratic Party was making a mistake in choosing Obama as its presidential nominee.

He said: "Suppose you're a voter, and you've got candidate X and candidate Y. Candidate X agrees with you on everything, but you don't think that candidate can deliver on anything at all. Candidate Y you agree with on about half the issues, but he can deliver. Which candidate are you going to vote for?"

Then, perhaps mindful of how his off-the-cuff remarks might be taken, Clinton added after a pause: "This has nothing to do with what's going on now."

The comments are unlikely to be taken as an innocent mistake by those Democrats who continue to be angry with the former president for, they say, not supporting the Illinois senator wholeheartedly, if not implicitly undercutting him.

The controversial comments came just hours before Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton (N.Y.), the former first lady and principal rival to Obama, was due to speak from the convention podium.

Democrats concerned about what the former president might say when he addresses the Democratic convention Wednesday night would likely have cringed at his remarks Tuesday to a group of foreign dignitaries.

The former president talked about the importance of a politician being able to deliver on his promises following an electoral victory and how voters factor in that ability to deliver when picking their candidate.

During the contentious and at times nasty nomination battle between Clinton and Obama, the Clinton campaign repeatedly pushed the question of whether Obama, a freshman senator, had the experience or the ability to deliver on his promises if elected. Clinton, they argued, was more suited to do so.


The Clintons are already looking ahead to 2012, and want to induce a sense of buyer's remorse in the Democrats, that they made a mistake by choosing Obama over Hillary.  If Obama is elected despite their machinations, then the Clintons will work to make his presidency a shambles.
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Offline edfu

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Re: OK... I'm getting mad at Bill and Hillary (again)
« Reply #47 on: August 27, 2008, 01:15:15 AM »
Everything she said tonight was generic, Democratic-party line.  She didn't say one thing positive about Obama except to elect him.  She called Biden "wise."  She used no such adjectives about Obama, and everything she said he would do if elected could be said about any of the Democratic potential nominees and are in the Democratic platform anyway.  She made no attempt to explain why her negative feelings and statements about him during the primary have changed, which is why the Repubs tomorrow will be able to run commercials with all those criticisms she made of him during the primary.  She went party line all the way and thus endorsed him, but that's as far as she went.  She gave no personal reasons why he'd be a great President.  So sad.   

And now this:

DENVER (CNN) – Hillary Clinton will be on hand for Barack Obama's acceptance speech, but according to a source close to former President Bill Clinton, he will not: the source tells CNN that Clinton will not join his wife at Invesco Field Thursday night.

« Last Edit: August 27, 2008, 02:44:02 AM by edfu »
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Offline Cliff

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Re: OK... I'm getting mad at Bill and Hillary (again)
« Reply #48 on: August 27, 2008, 06:47:45 AM »
Most likely the Clintons really hate the Obamas and the feeling is probably mutual.  I think people are over-analysing their speeches and actions.  Perhaps the Clintons aren't 100% behind Obama.  Well, does it really matter?  I don't think they (the Clintons) are as important as people make them out to be.  They certainly didn't help Gore or Kerry get elected and Clinton didn't do nearly as well as she should have during the primaries, especially given that the nomination was hers to lose.

I think the media, (with the help of some very vocal supporters of the Clintons), are making a big issue out of something that will probably have minimal impact on the election.  If a Democrat is so upset at the outcome of the primaries that they would vote Republican or not vote at all, oh well!  That's their prerogative and unfortunately should Obama lose, they will likely come to regret that decision.

If the shoe was on the other foot and Obama lost to Clinton, I'd likely moan and groan about voting Republican.  Lord knows I despise both Clintons with a passion.  But in the end, despite all the complaining and whining, Clinton would have gotten my vote.  I would be stupid to allow my hatred for them to distract from the fact that we share common views on many more issues than I do with McCain.

Offline atlq

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Re: OK... I'm getting mad at Bill and Hillary (again)
« Reply #49 on: August 27, 2008, 06:52:26 AM »
 The Clinton speech was enough....except for her delegates...


I heard a Clinton delegate being interviewed on NPR last night. When asked what she expected to hear from HRC that would give her cause to support Obama she said she needed a concrete reason to get over the intense pain of "being treated More rudely by  them (The Obama campaign) than by any campaign in my life"...

sigghhh.....the "healing" continues...

edited for massive typos...where are those glasses?...
« Last Edit: August 27, 2008, 08:32:56 AM by atlq »
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