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Author Topic: Russia invades Georgia  (Read 6427 times)

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Offline Cliff

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Russia invades Georgia
« on: August 10, 2008, 04:17:48 AM »
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article4486208.ece

Is anyone going to stand up to the bullies of central/eastern Europe and Caucasus?  Putin, Bush's former best bud, is a fascist and power hungry.  They don't care about Ossetians (all 70,000 of them).  They are only punishing Georgia for wanting to join NATO, knowing full well that Europe, America and the UN will do nothing about it (other than release statements demanding a ceasefire).

Offline RapidRod

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Re: Russia invades Georgia
« Reply #1 on: August 10, 2008, 06:15:56 AM »
Cliff, I don't think there is anything that can be done except going through diplomatic channels and try to get a cease-fire. I think it strengthens the reason for the missile defense system the US is putting in place.

Offline Dachshund

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Re: Russia invades Georgia
« Reply #2 on: August 10, 2008, 07:48:37 AM »
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article4486208.ece

Is anyone going to stand up to the bullies of central/eastern Europe and Caucasus?  Putin, Bush's former best bud, is a fascist and power hungry.  They don't care about Ossetians (all 70,000 of them).  They are only punishing Georgia for wanting to join NATO, knowing full well that Europe, America and the UN will do nothing about it (other than release statements demanding a ceasefire).

We're a bit busy right now in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Offline Robert

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Re: Russia invades Georgia
« Reply #3 on: August 10, 2008, 10:56:08 AM »
Quote
We're a bit busy right now in Iraq and Afghanistan.

So where's NATO. or the EU?  Waiting for the big boys to come home from the games in Beijing?  What?  They can't make a call on their own?

..........

Offline Jeff G

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Re: Russia invades Georgia
« Reply #4 on: August 10, 2008, 11:09:55 AM »
 How do yall think I feel ... Im right next door in Alabama

Offline Cliff

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Re: Russia invades Georgia
« Reply #5 on: August 10, 2008, 11:32:37 AM »
So where's NATO. or the EU?  Waiting for the big boys to come home from the games in Beijing?  What?  They can't make a call on their own?
Exactly.  They, (and this isn't just about the US), talk about democracy, but then look the other way while Russia bullies their neighbors.  The same neighbors the West tries to entice from Russian dominance.

Online bocker3

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Re: Russia invades Georgia
« Reply #6 on: August 10, 2008, 12:03:09 PM »
Interesting -- most of the EU didn't like the US attacking Iraq either -- so are you proposing that they should have stepped in militarily there too??  or is it only because it is Russia?
Now, I agree that Russia probably cares jack shit about the Ossetiens, but what should we do really?  I have never understood why people think that the US or the EU needs to intervene in every conflict that arises around the globe.
Have any of you actually served in combat -- or is all this just some theoretical call to action for OTHERS to deal with?

Mike
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Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Russia invades Georgia
« Reply #7 on: August 10, 2008, 12:59:34 PM »
Expanding NATO to Russia's border was never a bright idea in the first place.  Think of what the US has done to Cuba for the last 40 years, or going back even further to the Monroe Doctrine.

Also in many ways the Caucasus is to Russia like the Balkans are to Western Europe, and I don't mean just in terms of the current conflict but in its historic roots as a buffer zone between great powers, and the odd mix of patchwork religious/ethnic/linguistic groups.  This current conflict is simply one of five major ones since the USSR dissolved in the area of the Caucasus.

You have South Ossetia in Georgia, and North Ossetia in Russia.  So that's a divided ethnic group that's wants their status resolved from something that was handled by the larger parties (i.e. Russia and Georgia) badly when the USSR was dissolved.  This current situation has been dry timber waiting to catch fire, its just that the American public knows little about it, and why I doubt you're going to see any real challenge aside from useless hand wringing.

Probably wasn't a fabulous idea for Georgia to dissolve the autonomous status of this ethnic enclave 18 years ago, causing people to flee across the border.  Georgia is not an innocent victim in the situation, though that's the way they will try to portray it currently.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2008, 01:09:24 PM by philly267 »
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Offline Cliff

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Re: Russia invades Georgia
« Reply #8 on: August 10, 2008, 01:55:37 PM »
Interesting -- most of the EU didn't like the US attacking Iraq either -- so are you proposing that they should have stepped in militarily there too??  or is it only because it is Russia?
The situations are completely different and I'm not going to get into a tit for tat on Iraq nor how silly it is to compare the two conflicts.

Quote
I have never understood why people think that the US or the EU needs to intervene in every conflict that arises around the globe.
No one said anything about intervening in every conflict.  Stop the straw man arguments.  There is a full range of options available to the US, far short of declaring war on Russia. 

Plus the US is partly to blame for the situation.  The US did lead Georgia down this path, (supporting them with military aid and promising entrance into NATO as a carrot to do our bidding plus allowing us to build military base there), naively assuming Russia would do nothing.  Now that we have been caught off-guard, we basically leave the Georgians to fend for themselves; a country of 4-5 million fighting against one with 150 million. 

Quote
Have any of you actually served in combat -- or is all this just some theoretical call to action for OTHERS to deal with?
Spare me the "I have served my country so that gives me and only me the right to speak about armed conflicts."  It's well tired.

Offline Cliff

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Re: Russia invades Georgia
« Reply #9 on: August 10, 2008, 01:58:53 PM »
Probably wasn't a fabulous idea for Georgia to dissolve the autonomous status of this ethnic enclave 18 years ago, causing people to flee across the border.  Georgia is not an innocent victim in the situation, though that's the way they will try to portray it currently.
Agreed.  Georgia isn't completely innocent here and they have perhaps learned their lesson.  But Russia's response is complete disingenuous and disproportionate.  And it's a long list of economic and political bullying that Russia has enacted on its former states (and the rest of Europe).  At some point someone is going to have to stand up to them.

Online bocker3

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Re: Russia invades Georgia
« Reply #10 on: August 10, 2008, 02:33:29 PM »
Me thinks that i have struck a nerve here......  you are appearing very defensive to my suggestion that neither the US nor the EU need get involved with a conflict simply you say so.

The situations are completely different and I'm not going to get into a tit for tat on Iraq nor how silly it is to compare the two conflicts.
Crap -- how are they different?  The EU is hand wringing about Georgia just like they did with Iraq -- the comparison is NOT mine, it is simply a fact.  I'm not comparing the conflicts, I am comparing the reactions to them.
No one said anything about intervening in every conflict.  Stop the straw man arguments.  There is a full range of options available to the US, far short of declaring war on Russia.
Where is the straw man??  You have stated that "someone has to stand up" to Russia -- this is an armed conflict, so what, pray tell, are the options?  You have already poo-poo'd the current diplomatic options.  So please do tell me what you think should be done.  And why, now, are you saying that "there is a full range of options available to the US" -- what happened to the Europeans doing "something" -- what options have they??
Plus the US is partly to blame for the situation.  The US did lead Georgia down this path, (supporting them with military aid and promising entrance into NATO as a carrot to do our bidding plus allowing us to build military base there), naively assuming Russia would do nothing.  Now that we have been caught off-guard, we basically leave the Georgians to fend for themselves; a country of 4-5 million fighting against one with 150 million.
Well, you have stated that the Georgians are "partly" to blame -- which I agree.  This conflict started just a couple of days ago, so what should have happened to this point?  It does take some time to move a military force, if we were to do that (which I don't think we are and don't believe we should).  I think your expectations are a bit fanciful, at best. 
Spare me the "I have served my country so that gives me and only me the right to speak about armed conflicts."  It's well tired.
I'm not sure where your quoted statement comes from -- I certainly have not said it (another "straw man" perhaps).  You have every right to speak about armed conflicts -- as have I.  What is "well, tired" is your penchant, when challenged, to simply dismiss other's views without any further discussion of your own.  My point is that it is very easy to say that "someone" should stand up and help the Georgians when it is not your ass that will be on the line.  What exactly is it that you want to happen?  An explosion into a wider conflict, which is precisely what will happen if anyone joins in this fight?  The Georgians are the ones trying to keep people who do not wish to be with them.  Is Russia exploiting this situation -- ABSOLUTELY, but I'm not sure the situation demands a military intervention by the US or the EU.
I am not being dismissive -- I really would like to know what you think should happen and what it will accomplish.

Mike
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Offline Cliff

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Re: Russia invades Georgia
« Reply #11 on: August 10, 2008, 03:00:55 PM »
Iraq is different.  The events that lead up to the Congressional/UN authorisation of force are not seen in this conflict.  Not to mention UN mandates (no fly zone) that were being ignored by Iraq.  None of which are present here.  Plus Georgia is a democracy.  Iraq wasn't.  Georgia does abide by the rule of law (including international law).  Iraq didn't.  That conflict is completely different from Russia invading Georgia simply to retaliate for Georgia's movement to the West, under the guise of preventing genocide.  But enough on that, if you think they are the same then we'll just agree to disagree.  I think comparing Iraq to Ossetia is distracting at best.

1.  The US should acknowledge that it brought this issue, along with an inexperienced, rash Georgian leader.
2.  Europe, specifically France and Germany, should announce its support for Georgia NATO membership and stop blocking countries membership to NATO solely because Russia disapproves (which defeats the point of having NATO in the first place).
3.  The US should live up to its moral obligation and supply Georgia with military support/aid to fight against the Russians.
4.  UN is powerless, considering Russia's and China's veto..so nothing will happen there
5.  The US/EU should threaten economic response should Russia continue to bomb/attack within Georgia's borders.
6.  NATO/EU/US can announce peace keeping troops in Ossetia, given now that Russia is no longer an unbiased participant (who is providing arms and military assistance to the separatist in hopes of undermine the west-allied government.)
7.  The West and other ex-Soviet states can disallow Russia's naval/AF from moving within their borders/ports

Those are some of the things I think can be done, short of starting WWIII.

Online bocker3

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Re: Russia invades Georgia
« Reply #12 on: August 10, 2008, 04:32:33 PM »
Thank you.  We certainly disagree on a number of your thoughts, but I appreciate you taking the time to present them here.

I do hope that the US government shows some uncharacteristic restraint here and does NOT offer any military help -- at least not at this stage (one never knows what could happen down the road).  Now sending them some aid, i.e. equipement, is one thing, sending troops -- I hope not.

When the fighting stops -- I like the peacekeeping idea -- probably needs to happen, but ultimately the Georgian gov't brought this on all by itself.  Who thought splitting Ossetia up would be a good idea?

Mike
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Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Russia invades Georgia
« Reply #13 on: August 10, 2008, 05:21:57 PM »
Cliff, sadly I don't think any of your points are going to come to pass.  The US, France and Germany will be balancing their interests in Russian participation in negotiation with Iran over its perceived nuclear program.  Do you honestly think that they're going to antagonize Russia over this?  I just don't see it.  It's simply the reality of how this stuff happens.

Like anything with foreign relations it's a chess game.

Bocker, as far as who thought it bright to split up Ossetia I believe that pre-dates the dissolution of the USSR, and that the area was screwed as far back as the 1920's.  In the late 80's the Ossetians reportedly engaged in ethnic cleansing of the Ingush who are Muslim.
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Offline Cliff

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Re: Russia invades Georgia
« Reply #14 on: August 11, 2008, 06:05:19 AM »
True!  But I think in the long-term ignoring some of Russia's aggressive acts may come back to haunt us.  They are consolidating their hold over the former Soviet Republics (and their own oil fields), to the detriment of democracy and economic freedom. 

But on the plus side, at least a lot of people now know there is a country named Georgia!  Everytime I mention the country, folks used to always think I was talking about the US state.   :(

President Saakashvili's WSJ op ed column.

http://edition.CNN.com/2008/WORLD/europe/08/11/georgia.president/index.html?iref=mpstoryview


Offline dixieman

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Re: Russia invades Georgia
« Reply #15 on: August 11, 2008, 10:33:12 AM »
The country of Georgia has played too many games per say with the Great Bear(Russia) and Russia has had enough! I see no problem... this region of the world only knows to cry wolf when their being defeated... theyve caused some many problems in the past that Russia is finally taking care of buisness... I think the United States should stay out of it... and let the United Nations do their big nothing as usual... just my opinion!

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: Russia invades Georgia
« Reply #16 on: August 11, 2008, 10:36:16 AM »
Tell us Dixieman

How did you find things when you were in Tiblisi? You can deliver your report when Clifton and the Bald One deliver their fascinating accounts.

How fortunate we are to be in the company of such Eastern European experts.

MtD

Offline OneTampa

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Re: Russia invades Georgia
« Reply #17 on: August 11, 2008, 11:47:30 AM »
This war seemed to pop up out of nowhere.  I don't recall any news reports about a brewing conflict before it happened. I just hope we don't send our busy troops over to this one.
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Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: Russia invades Georgia
« Reply #18 on: August 11, 2008, 11:50:43 AM »
Well that's just awful.

The next time a whole lot of foreigners go to war, let's hope they let you know first.

MtD

Offline bear60

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Re: Russia invades Georgia
« Reply #19 on: August 11, 2008, 11:55:33 AM »
NO ONE talked about OIL:
NEW YORK (AP) - Stocks traded mixed Monday as investors paused following last week's sharp gains and as oil prices fluctuated on concerns over fighting between Russia and Georgia.

Oil market traders questioned whether the conflict between Russia and Georgia over the breakaway province of South Ossetia could lead to supply disruptions in the region. Some rebound also was to be expected after oil fell $4.82 on Friday, sending the stock market sharply higher.

Light, sweet crude rose 8 cents to $115.28 per barrel on the New York Mercantile Exchange.

Despite oil's periodic advances Monday, Wall Street is relieved that the price of oil has fallen more than $30 from its July 11 high of $147.27, easing worries about overall inflation and a key pressure point for consumers.
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Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: Russia invades Georgia
« Reply #20 on: August 11, 2008, 11:58:50 AM »
Yeah cheers Joel.

People have died, but all you're concerned about is Light Sweet Crude.

MtD

Offline bear60

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Re: Russia invades Georgia
« Reply #21 on: August 11, 2008, 12:30:10 PM »
If I am correct there is an oil pipeline to the Caspian Sea that has captured Putin's (Russias) interest.....?
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Offline RapidRod

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Re: Russia invades Georgia
« Reply #22 on: August 11, 2008, 01:28:35 PM »
The US airlifted all 1000 Georgia troops back to Georgia that were fighting in Iraq today.

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Russia invades Georgia
« Reply #23 on: August 11, 2008, 01:30:07 PM »
That's the least we can do after bribing them into The Coalition of the Dimwitted.
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Offline dixieman

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Re: Russia invades Georgia
« Reply #24 on: August 11, 2008, 01:46:07 PM »
Well its not OIL... they consume more than they produce... historically this region has been in conflict from day one... and so it continues. If you study history this little region is great on white genocide! of Armenians... The Georgians started this conflict by creating rebel havic in the region between north and south Ossetia as Philly explained... Their not the sweet little darlins they try to portray... Their just like an example of Yugoslavia... ETHINIC cleansing... at least TITO kept the rival factions in Yugoslavia in control... and What happen when he died the same old fueds started all over... now yugoslavia has become how many small states due to ethnic cleansing? Well the same goes here with a false FACADE of democracy in Georgia... so study history... Let Russia deal with it and let the United Nations deal with Russia... The United States needs to stay out... and let the United Nations deal with another problamatic region on their own...

Offline northernguy

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Re: Russia invades Georgia
« Reply #25 on: August 12, 2008, 10:55:50 PM »
..Is anyone going to stand up to the bullies of central/eastern Europe and Caucasus?  Putin, Bush's former best bud, is a fascist and power hungry.  They don't care about Ossetians (all 70,000 of them).  They are only punishing Georgia for wanting to join NATO, knowing full well that Europe, America and the UN will do nothing about it (other than release statements demanding a ceasefire).

Uh, are we watching the same conflict?  Basically Georgia broke a longstanding ceasefire with a surprise attack on South Ossetia.   South Ossetia has said they don't want to be part of Georgia (in the same way Georgia didn't want to be part of Russia).  Russia goes into Georgia to destroy military targets to ensure a similar surprise attack doesn't happen in the future.  The real losers are the South Ossetians whose homeland lies in ruins thanks to a conflict Georgia started.

And yes, the USA has lost the moral authority to criticize the invasion of one sovereign country by another.  Just one more casualty of Bush's misadventures.
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Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Russia invades Georgia
« Reply #26 on: August 12, 2008, 11:14:50 PM »
Well its not OIL... they consume more than they produce...

No, not oil deposits in Georgia, but the US financed pipeline to the oil and natural gas fields to the east in Azerbaijani, Kazakhstan and Turkemenistan -- the pipeline runs from Baku on the Caspian, west through Georgia to tanker ships in Ceyhan, Turkey.  About a third of the world's undeveloped natural gas and oil deposits lie beneath the Caspian Sea, and why both the Bush I, and Clinton administrations exhibit bi-partisan support for our current policies in that area.  The Georgian pipeline is crucial to get the oil out of that area, but not cross through Russia or Iran.  Most of the oil goes to the French, Spanish and Italian markets but obviously effects world pricing.

http://www.voanews.com/english/archive/2006-06/Caspian2006-06-26-voa43.cfm
« Last Edit: August 12, 2008, 11:22:26 PM by philly267 »
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Offline atlq

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Re: Russia invades Georgia
« Reply #27 on: August 13, 2008, 10:00:50 AM »
Worth noting also:

The US pushed hard - against German opposition mostly - to extend NATO membership to both Georgia and the Ukraine doing the last round of NATO meetings. They didn't get membership, but a "promise" that they would become members at some point. If Georgia had become a member, we would have been obligated to come to their defense. Russia holds a number of grudges with several former Soviet republics.  While I think the expansion of NATO has been a good thing in general, its seems that in this case it may have prompted the Georgian government into taking this insane risk (whether it was justified or not).....


The western European states are simply not going to antagonize Russia...Germany receives almost 40 % of her energy supplies from Russia and the consequences of a supply cutoff would be borderline catastrophic. That's just realpolitik...Lets hope the ceasefire holds and this carnage stops...
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Offline bear60

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Re: Russia invades Georgia
« Reply #28 on: August 13, 2008, 10:42:44 AM »
"The Georgian pipeline is crucial to get the oil out of that area, but not cross through Russia or Iran.  Most of the oil goes to the French, Spanish and Italian markets but obviously effects world pricing." quote Philly
....................................
I heard a commentator on N.P.R. yesterday say that 40% of the oil Germany uses flows thru the Russian pipeline.  If the OTHER oil pipeline is built thru Georgia, it will be the ONLY oil pipeline that does not go thru Russia supplying Europe.
This is what I so feebly tried to refer to when I said OIL was involved in this conflict. I always remember the words " Follow the money" and you will find the source of the conflict.  In this case...oil money.
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Offline Oceanbeach

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Re: Russia invades Georgia
« Reply #29 on: August 17, 2008, 03:05:35 PM »
The one with Atlanta?

;D  Have the best day

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Offline Dachshund

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Re: Russia invades Georgia
« Reply #30 on: August 18, 2008, 08:10:32 AM »
I guess it depends on who's dropping the bombs. Out of the mouth of babes.

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Offline dixieman

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Re: Russia invades Georgia
« Reply #31 on: August 18, 2008, 10:53:42 AM »
Thanks for the news clip... it seems  the country Georgia is the Aggressor... I just feel for all the people caught up in this conflict. News reports  try to place the blame on Russia as the aggressor but, I was right its the Georgian government up to its usual tactics... history repeats itself once again...

Offline Cliff

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Re: Russia invades Georgia
« Reply #32 on: August 18, 2008, 11:37:37 AM »
Either the events in Georgia were not reported in the US for the past 6-8 months or someone didn't pay attention (cause its been reported by the BBC for ages now).  Russia has been agitating and violating Georgia's territorial integrity for months.  This included sending spy planes throughout its country, to which Russia denied it until Georgia finally shot one down.  It included Russia sending military jets into Georgia's airspace and "accidentally bombing certain targets".  It included Russia arming the same militia groups that it is suppose to serve as peace keeping troops for.  This allowed the militia groups to launch mortar attacks against Georgia, killing Georgian solders.  Despite all of this the government did nothing to prevent a further escalation of the conflict, but finally had no choice but to respond and launch a military raid in Ossetia.  Even the US government has said that Russia incited this war!

Also Russia does not want that pipeline to go through Georgia because it will allow the Europeans to bypass Russia and get oil from a more reliable and safe source.  So Russia is intent on getting a pro-Russian government elected in Georgia and the best way to do that is to provote the pro-American government into a war it can not win and let the Georgians take care of the rest.

And you must have also missed all the other crap Russia is doing to its former states, invading Latvia using it's ethnic Russians being discriminated against as a "justification", turning off oil and gas flows to neighboring countries IN THE MIDDLE OF WINTER simply because they dared to try and join the EU/NATO.  This is all about Russia trying to reinsert its dominance on its former soviet states, while these same states are trying to move towards the West.  Russia has also been forcing US/UK countries to divest in their Russian assets but are using illegal and underhanded tactics. 

Georgia had a right to quash the rebellion in the Ossetia to prevent further mortar attacks on its citizens and soldiers.  They have already given those  regions self-governning rule so they are clearly willing to negotiate a settlement.

Offline dixieman

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Re: Russia invades Georgia
« Reply #33 on: August 18, 2008, 02:47:01 PM »
Well I guess the United States, UK... BBC, NBC etc... never actually participate in propaganda... this skirmish started back in 1989... the georgian government was the aggressor... and has been continously biting at the ankles of a large nation (Russia) and I see no problem for the Russian government stomping the crap out of a small country. Just because,  Georgia is a sooooooo called democracy does not make it have a halo like an angel... This region has been riddled with problems for centuries... Armenia, Turkey, Georgia... they push one way and then the other... they'll never have PEACE... just like in the middle east... there will never be PEACE there either... tooo many factions of hate! between them all... its a constant...

Offline fearless

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Re: Russia invades Georgia
« Reply #34 on: August 19, 2008, 11:40:42 PM »
Either the events in Georgia were not reported in the US for the past 6-8 months or someone didn't pay attention (cause its been reported by the BBC for ages now).  Russia has been agitating and violating Georgia's territorial integrity for months.  This included sending spy planes throughout its country, to which Russia denied it until Georgia finally shot one down.  It included Russia sending military jets into Georgia's airspace and "accidentally bombing certain targets".  It included Russia arming the same militia groups that it is suppose to serve as peace keeping troops for.  This allowed the militia groups to launch mortar attacks against Georgia, killing Georgian solders.  Despite all of this the government did nothing to prevent a further escalation of the conflict, but finally had no choice but to respond and launch a military raid in Ossetia.  Even the US government has said that Russia incited this war!

Also Russia does not want that pipeline to go through Georgia because it will allow the Europeans to bypass Russia and get oil from a more reliable and safe source.  So Russia is intent on getting a pro-Russian government elected in Georgia and the best way to do that is to provote the pro-American government into a war it can not win and let the Georgians take care of the rest.

And you must have also missed all the other crap Russia is doing to its former states, invading Latvia using it's ethnic Russians being discriminated against as a "justification", turning off oil and gas flows to neighboring countries IN THE MIDDLE OF WINTER simply because they dared to try and join the EU/NATO.  This is all about Russia trying to reinsert its dominance on its former soviet states, while these same states are trying to move towards the West.  Russia has also been forcing US/UK countries to divest in their Russian assets but are using illegal and underhanded tactics. 

Georgia had a right to quash the rebellion in the Ossetia to prevent further mortar attacks on its citizens and soldiers.  They have already given those  regions self-governning rule so they are clearly willing to negotiate a settlement.

C'mon Cliff, you know enough about the USA to know that none of lead up would ever have been reported on the main stream media in the USA. If it doesn't happen in the US or involve the US it rarely get reported in the US.
Be forgiving, be grateful, be optimistic

Offline RapidRod

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Re: Russia invades Georgia
« Reply #35 on: August 20, 2008, 12:32:59 AM »
We get the BBS News here in the US on Direct TV.

Offline Dachshund

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Re: Russia invades Georgia
« Reply #36 on: August 20, 2008, 08:05:55 AM »

 


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