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Author Topic: Has Manhunt destroyed gay culture?  (Read 11591 times)

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Offline Dachshund

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Has Manhunt destroyed gay culture?
« on: August 07, 2008, 11:20:07 AM »
"As a normative way of socializing for gay men, online cruising is a disaster. We need to recognize its effects -- including its tendency to isolate us, encourage objectification, and diminish our sense of lifeís nonsexual possibilities -- as disasters. We need to recognize that too many of us, too much of the time, are cruising online because it is easier and feels safer than thinking about the love we are missing and the power we do not have. Too many of us, too much of the time, are cruising online because itís easier and feels safer than mustering the courage, patience, discipline, and imagination required to help ourselves and each other become the men that, in our strongest moments, we want to be.

"Gary Cohan, a physician who treats half of A-list gay Hollywood, says we have to start thinking in a deliberate way about what normal social interaction consists of. ďFor a long time,Ē Cohan says, ďit has been considered normal to be on the Net. We need to start thinking, Thatís not normal.Ē

"We need to put our heads together and try to figure out what we want normative social life to look like. Whatever the answer turns out to be, it will involve creating social structures that serve and gratify our desire to have sex with each other and also promote and support the possibility of developing and sustaining intimate relationships. Gay men came close to the goal of building such a society when they were hit with the plague of AIDS. That generation learned the rewards of sacrifice and of setting limits on the place of sex in our culture. But to those of us who were children or teenagers during the epidemic, AIDS made coming out so scary that we preferred to avoid getting too involved in our gay forefathersí world.

"And along came the Internet, a tool that let us build gay lives without having to get very involved with older people -- not that, if weíd wanted to, there were a whole lot of them still living. Now, though, it seems our avoidance has created a different kind of society, more isolating, more brutal, and weaker. We still donít know how to have enduring relationships. We still donít have examples. We still donít have mentors. We still donít have courtship rituals. We are still getting HIV.

"We celebrate the fact that weíre out to the straight world, even though the only thing that means, in many cases, is that they know weíre gay.

"When we logged on, I donít think most of us realized we were creating new secret lives. I donít think we knew what we were getting into. But we got into it. For most of us, this is not working. And if itís not working for you, then itís time to get off." - Michael Joseph Gross, in an Out Magazine story titled Has Manhunt Destroyed Gay Culture?

 










http://www.out.com/detail.asp?page=1&id=24005

Offline komnaes

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Re: Has Manhunt destroyed gay culture?
« Reply #1 on: August 07, 2008, 11:54:26 AM »
Er... cruising in a dangerous park at night for impersonal sex, also risking robbery and getting beat up, is less destructive?
Aug 07 Diagnosed
Oct 07 CD4=446(19%) Feb 08 CD4=421(19%)
Jun 08 CD4=325(22%) Jul 08 CD4=301(18%)
Sep 08 CD4=257/VL=75,000 Oct 08 CD4=347(16%)
Dec 08 CD4=270(16%)
Jan 09 CD4=246(13%)/VL=10,000
Feb 09 CD4=233(15%)/VL=13,000
Started meds Sustiva/Epzicom
May 09 CD4=333(24%)/VL=650
Aug 09 CD4=346(24%)/VL=UD
Nov 09 CD4=437(26%)/VL=UD
Feb 10 CD4=471(31%)/VL=UD
June 10 CD4=517 (28%)/VL=UD
Sept 10 CD4=687 (31%)/VL=UD
Jan 11 CD4=557 (30%)/VL=UD
April 11 CD4=569 (32%)/VL=UD
Switched to Epizcom, Reyataz and Norvir
(Interrupted for 2 months with only Epizcom & Reyataz)
July 11 CD=520 (28%)/VL=UD
Oct 11 CD=771 (31%)/VL=UD(<30)
April 12 CD=609 (28%)/VL=UD(<20)
Aug 12 CD=657 (29%)/VL=UD(<20)
Dec 12 CD=532 (31%)/VL=UD(<20)
May 13 CD=567 (31%)/VL=UD(<20)
Jan 14 CD=521 (21%)/VL=UD(<50)

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Has Manhunt destroyed gay culture?
« Reply #2 on: August 07, 2008, 12:15:01 PM »
Oh, this is just a bunch of drama from Luddite wannabees and veers into Kramer Preaching.  I mean honestly, manhunt is like cruising in the Ramble at Central Park.  wtf... stupid morons.  Sure, there are some people that overdo it on manhunt, just like there were some queens that overdid it in the park.

Now, I will say it's had a bit of an effect on gay areas in urban cities -- they're shrinking.  But think it's concurrent with the newer generation of gay guys not wanting to be holed up in gay segregated places... they mix in the trendy bars with the breeders now, as long as the breeders don't look/act like frat boys.

And because I think it's BS I kindly offer this token of affection:  the winner of Mr. Manhunt Brazil 2008!
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline YaKaMein

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Re: Has Manhunt destroyed gay culture?
« Reply #3 on: August 07, 2008, 12:45:24 PM »
IMHO ... such articles are 'hogwash' and way 'off topic' ... LOL  -YaKa
09/11 Endocrine Consult
08/11 CD4 328 14.9% VL 0
 Disc'd Bactrim DEXA -3.1 Tscore
03/11 CD4 338 14.7% VL 0
11/10 CD4 300 14.3% VL 0 <20copies
07/10 CD4 336 14.0% VL 0 DEXA -2.7 Tscore
03/10 CD4 308 13.4% VL 0 Vit D normal
01/10 Began FOTO
11/09 CD4 274 13.7% VL 0 Chol 173 Trig 131
07/09 CD4 324 13.5% VL 0 DEXA -3.1 Tscore lumbar
03/09 CD4 207 10.9% VL 0
11/08 CD4 227 10.3% VL 0 Chol 176 Trig 156
04/08 CD4 228 9.5% VL 0
01/08 CD4 194 9.0% VL 0
09/07 CD4 176 8.3% VL 0
03/07 CD4 130 9.5% VL 0 Chol 261  Trig 227
12/06 CD4 109 6.4% VL 0
09/06 CD4  88 5.5% VL und desens'd rtd to Bactrim
08/06  Began Atripla
07/06 CD4  59 5.0% VL 145 Chol 117 Trig 104
06/06  Bactrim rash, X2 Dapsone
 EFV & Truvada Chol 128 Trig 131
05/06 CD4  6 (2.0%) VL 78667 only V179D mutation Dx PC MAC

Offline rick21007

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Re: Has Manhunt destroyed gay culture?
« Reply #4 on: August 07, 2008, 01:05:06 PM »
I live in Central Oregon--the biggest town is Bend, 72,000.  What we had for a gay community was a once-a-month mens dinner group, a hiking group for a little while and one bar that hosted queer night on Tuesdays.  Those are all gone now.  What we have instead is Craigslist----which is dominated by married men looking to get their rocks off.

rick

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Has Manhunt destroyed gay culture?
« Reply #5 on: August 07, 2008, 01:12:16 PM »
You can go to any HIV support group and most of the guys are more interested in getting laid than simply going to a movie during the week as friends.  This story is as old as the hills.  The issue isn't the internet, or whatever format of the month -- it's a story about losers.
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline bear60

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Re: Has Manhunt destroyed gay culture?
« Reply #6 on: August 07, 2008, 01:33:01 PM »
Question:  I suppose this Dr Cohan is gay?

Comment: The new generation of LGBT people have a chance to make things better and I believe they will.  Gay marriage is one of the biggest steps yet.
Poz Bear Type in Philadelphia

Offline dixieman

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Re: Has Manhunt destroyed gay culture?
« Reply #7 on: August 07, 2008, 02:04:29 PM »
Gay culture? one has to have a culture before one can ruin it. All the sites I've seen online for promiscuity (nameless hookups) are just that... basically the same as one on one in various locations without the hastle to have to meet upfront and in person...

Offline DanielMark

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Re: Has Manhunt destroyed gay culture?
« Reply #8 on: August 07, 2008, 04:48:58 PM »
No idea what "Gay culture" is or what it means or if it even ever existed. I am a human being first and I tend to avoid any way of living that others would try to define for me. How strange am I?  :-\

Daniel
MEDS: REYATAZ & KIVEXA (SINCE AUG 2008)

MAY 2000 LAB RESULTS: CD4 678
VL STILL UNDETECTABLE

DIAGNOSED IN 1988

Offline BlueMoon

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Re: Has Manhunt destroyed gay culture?
« Reply #9 on: August 07, 2008, 06:48:56 PM »
Manhunt (and others  ;D) worked fine for me.  Maybe this guy is just doing it wrong?    ???
...................VL.....CD4.....%
-----------------------------------------
08/10-- ......<40.....290.....42
05/10-- ......<48.....290.....46
02/10-- ......<48.....481.....44
10/09-- ......<48.....277.....46
07/09-- ......<48.....300.....38
05/09-- ........51.....449.....39
03/09-- Added Isentress
02/09-- ........65.....299.....34
11/08-- ........62.....242.....40
08/08-- ........66.....212.....29
05/08-- ......202.....217.....27
03/08-- ....5210.....187.....21
02/08-- Began Truvada/Reyataz/Norvir
12/07-- 273,000.....157.....22
11/07-- 229,000.....209.....22
10/07-- Diagnosis

It's a complex world.

Offline jkinatl2

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Re: Has Manhunt destroyed gay culture?
« Reply #10 on: August 07, 2008, 07:33:33 PM »
I tend to agree with Daschund's article, to a degree. The internet has created an isolation in urban centers that I have not seen before. In addition, unsafe behaviours are much easier to negotiate (and perpetuate) when under the guise of the internet persona. As as all know from even this site, what a person types, how they write, their cadences, et al (including things like gender, income/occupation, education, and other pertinent facts) are rarely exactly what they appear.

It's also helped fuel the meth-driven HIV pandemic to a degree that clubs simply do not. While I detest the "stand and model" aspect of many clubs, there is something to be said for human interaction, for a face and body to place together, for a personality (even a drunk/high one) to come through. Of course, if it comes down to looking for a pole pr a hole, one venue is probably as good as another. In addition, people online can feel freer to express fetishes and kinks that they would likely be embarrassed to mention during a conversation at a club or event.  Pros and cons, and all that.

It is, in my opinion, the difference between eating at a nice pizza place and ordering from Domino's. Sure, you get pizza. The quality never, ever looks the same as the static photo.

I am certainly no prude, and have utilized online sites in the past. But they feed on my agoraphobia, on the allure of the dark and forbidden, on the shameful. And on the deceptive. They are not community-building services, nor do I suspect were they meant to be.

But people are a lot looser and more free with the PNP there than in person, I have noticed.


*edited to add more stuff and for spelling
« Last Edit: August 07, 2008, 07:45:54 PM by jkinatl2 »
"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

Welcome Thread

Offline Mouse

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Re: Has Manhunt destroyed gay culture?
« Reply #11 on: August 07, 2008, 07:53:54 PM »
You can think whatever you'd like about utilizing services like this, but it's simply vile to suggest that you can deduce so much about a person simply because they hooked up on the internet. That's just absurd. It's even worse to suggest that we SHOULD be passing judgment on people because of it like this article is pretty much encouraging.

Manhunt and sites like it are made up of consenting adults. They can do what they like. I personally don't care what goes on as long as no one is getting hurt.

And Manhunt encouraging objectification? LOL. As though gay men weren't obsessive objectifiers even before the internet was INVENTED. Let's not kid ourselves. If people want to serve themselves up as pieces of meat, they can knock themselves out doing it, but let's please not pretend that this is something that has come on with the internet. I was born in 1990 and I am STILL well aware of this.

Human beings being human beings are going to be into sex, and for many of us that means quick, free, anonymous sex and this would be happening with or without Manhunt. This isn't saying anything for accessibility, but to be honest, even if that does make it easier for people to engage in anonymous sex, that doesn't make sex the enemy even when it comes to HIV. I'm tired of seeing this.


Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Has Manhunt destroyed gay culture?
« Reply #12 on: August 07, 2008, 08:08:03 PM »
I just find it amusing to sit and debate the relative merits of cruising on line vs. cruising in a park or cruising in a bar.  None of them are a white glove tea party environment.

Nobody's forcing any of you to do any of it.  Go fucking meet a guy at a bingo club in the gay community center.  Or a book reading at a gay bookstore... whatever.

It's nobody's fault but your own if you can't properly exercise a modicum of moderation in any of this.  Meth on the internet!  Barebacking hook ups!  Shut it down, shut it down!  CLOSE THE BATHS!
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline Ann

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Re: Has Manhunt destroyed gay culture?
« Reply #13 on: August 07, 2008, 08:12:34 PM »
Meth on the internet!  Barebacking hook ups!  Shut it down, shut it down!  CLOSE THE BATHS!

My momma always told me to keep my legs crossed.

Did I listen?

Did I fuck.

Society's to blame... shut it down!

::)
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline komnaes

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Re: Has Manhunt destroyed gay culture?
« Reply #14 on: August 07, 2008, 08:26:37 PM »
CLOSE THE BATHS!

They did already in San Francisco, and look what happened!  ;)
Aug 07 Diagnosed
Oct 07 CD4=446(19%) Feb 08 CD4=421(19%)
Jun 08 CD4=325(22%) Jul 08 CD4=301(18%)
Sep 08 CD4=257/VL=75,000 Oct 08 CD4=347(16%)
Dec 08 CD4=270(16%)
Jan 09 CD4=246(13%)/VL=10,000
Feb 09 CD4=233(15%)/VL=13,000
Started meds Sustiva/Epzicom
May 09 CD4=333(24%)/VL=650
Aug 09 CD4=346(24%)/VL=UD
Nov 09 CD4=437(26%)/VL=UD
Feb 10 CD4=471(31%)/VL=UD
June 10 CD4=517 (28%)/VL=UD
Sept 10 CD4=687 (31%)/VL=UD
Jan 11 CD4=557 (30%)/VL=UD
April 11 CD4=569 (32%)/VL=UD
Switched to Epizcom, Reyataz and Norvir
(Interrupted for 2 months with only Epizcom & Reyataz)
July 11 CD=520 (28%)/VL=UD
Oct 11 CD=771 (31%)/VL=UD(<30)
April 12 CD=609 (28%)/VL=UD(<20)
Aug 12 CD=657 (29%)/VL=UD(<20)
Dec 12 CD=532 (31%)/VL=UD(<20)
May 13 CD=567 (31%)/VL=UD(<20)
Jan 14 CD=521 (21%)/VL=UD(<50)

Offline jkinatl2

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Re: Has Manhunt destroyed gay culture?
« Reply #15 on: August 07, 2008, 08:41:19 PM »
Sorry to have offended anyone. I stand by my opinions.

*edited to add

The notion that this stuff has no bearing on the community, and that consenting adults do not cause harm to anyone outside their circle is precisely the point that the article was making. Meth use, bareback orgies, these things used to be kind of hard to find. You had to know people. You had to get invited to the after-party.  I have had no fewer than four smart, savvy people (including my ex) discover meth and become infected with HIV. One through sex clubs, the others through the net. True, these were consenting adults, and as such have the right to do with their bodies what they want. But to assume that this does not impact the community and culture as a whole is absurd.

Meth use and HIv infections have done real damage to the medical community, both in terms of cost and reducing the number of dedicated physicians due to low copays and burnout. My own experiences with doctors has been one of burnout after burnout, and without private insurance, ridiculously substandard care due to the amazing number of patients a doctor must see each day in order to break even.

yes, internet hookups and objectification have been around forever. And yes, it is indeed up to each of us to take personal responsibility. But to assume that the net has not changed the face of drugs and sex in the gay community is simply wrong, in my opinion.  And it does impact us all.

Take this site for example. I have, in the past, had terribly contentious conversations and "relationships" with posters who were, to put it mildly, total douchebags online. Yet when I have met them in person, they were sweet, nice, polite. And trust me, it's not like they were afraid i would punch them in the head. I have never, EVER had words spoken to my face as full of vitriol and spite as I have read here.

The internet allows people to be someone else. And quite often, in my experience, that "someone else" is not an improvement over the original. That is my experience, it is my opinion, and it certainly impacts my willingness to share one iota of personal information online.

Which is sad, because I do have opinions, and things I'd love to talk about.

Anyhow, like i said, sorry to stir the pot.

« Last Edit: August 07, 2008, 09:02:15 PM by jkinatl2 »
"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

Welcome Thread

Offline Mouse

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Re: Has Manhunt destroyed gay culture?
« Reply #16 on: August 07, 2008, 09:00:20 PM »
Sorry to have offended anyone. I stand by my opinions.





I'm not offended! As a clarification anything I posted was in response to the article and not your post.

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Has Manhunt destroyed gay culture?
« Reply #17 on: August 07, 2008, 09:03:24 PM »
Jonathan, you didn't offend me at all.  I understand you points, I just don't think that they're practical in any sort of application except as I described them -- self control.  I still don't find it (manhunt, etc.) that much different than a gay bar -- well, assuming you lived right on -- say, Christopher Street.  It's like my best friend who lived 5 blocks from The Ramble -- he was there every night.  That's no different than manhunt, and that was pre-internet when he was doing it.

Now, I will concede that it's made it all much more different for less urban folks than it was pre-internet.  But I'm rather parochial in that regards as I've lived in a downtown area of very large cities for over 20 years now.  I probably should have included this fact in my "opinion" (which I stand by as well).
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline thunter34

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Re: Has Manhunt destroyed gay culture?
« Reply #18 on: August 07, 2008, 09:23:29 PM »
Sorry to have offended anyone. I stand by my opinions.

*edited to add

The notion that this stuff has no bearing on the community, and that consenting adults do not cause harm to anyone outside their circle is precisely the point that the article was making. Meth use, bareback orgies, these things used to be kind of hard to find. You had to know people. You had to get invited to the after-party.  I have had no fewer than four smart, savvy people (including my ex) discover meth and become infected with HIV. One through sex clubs, the others through the net. True, these were consenting adults, and as such have the right to do with their bodies what they want. But to assume that this does not impact the community and culture as a whole is absurd.

Meth use and HIv infections have done real damage to the medical community, both in terms of cost and reducing the number of dedicated physicians due to low copays and burnout. My own experiences with doctors has been one of burnout after burnout, and without private insurance, ridiculously substandard care due to the amazing number of patients a doctor must see each day in order to break even.

yes, internet hookups and objectification have been around forever. And yes, it is indeed up to each of us to take personal responsibility. But to assume that the net has not changed the face of drugs and sex in the gay community is simply wrong, in my opinion.  And it does impact us all.

Take this site for example. I have, in the past, had terribly contentious conversations and "relationships" with posters who were, to put it mildly, total douchebags online. Yet when I have met them in person, they were sweet, nice, polite. And trust me, it's not like they were afraid i would punch them in the head. I have never, EVER had words spoken to my face as full of vitriol and spite as I have read here.

The internet allows people to be someone else. And quite often, in my experience, that "someone else" is not an improvement over the original. That is my experience, it is my opinion, and it certainly impacts my willingness to share one iota of personal information online.

Which is sad, because I do have opinions, and things I'd love to talk about.

Anyhow, like i said, sorry to stir the pot.



There's something to be said about that.  I mean...you can log on now on hookup sites and go straight for the "slam rooms" (where you actually watch one another shoot up online).  That's something ya just couldn't do as easily offline.  The effect was just never the same over the telephone. 

All told, I don't know if it's so much the net being a "bad" or "good" anything.  It's just doing what technology does - make it faster and easier with increasingly less effort on our parts.  And it seems to be acting like a pretty effective leveler in some respects.  While it may be pulling people further apart in urban areas, it's also throwing out a line to people like myself in more rural areas.

Now everyone has equal opportunity to feel disillusioned and isolated.   ;)
AIDS isn't for sissies.

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Has Manhunt destroyed gay culture?
« Reply #19 on: August 07, 2008, 09:34:36 PM »
There's something to be said about that.  I mean...you can log on now on hookup sites and go straight for the "slam rooms" (where you actually watch one another shoot up online).  That's something ya just couldn't do as easily offline.  The effect was just never the same over the telephone. 

I'll be happy to take you to some shooting galleries and play with junkies when you come visit Philadelphia.
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline GSOgymrat

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Re: Has Manhunt destroyed gay culture?
« Reply #20 on: August 07, 2008, 10:24:55 PM »
Take this site for example. I have, in the past, had terribly contentious conversations and "relationships" with posters who were, to put it mildly, total douchebags online. Yet when I have met them in person, they were sweet, nice, polite. And trust me, it's not like they were afraid i would punch them in the head. I have never, EVER had words spoken to my face as full of vitriol and spite as I have read here.

Barbara, please.

There are MUCH more offensive boards on the internet than this forum. I post on the Bodybulding.com forum and there are people on there that make me question the fate of human kind.  Check out the Misc forum.

This talk of lack of gay intimacy is a broken record that has been playing since two gay neanderthals rubbed their two sticks together and created fire. Anonymous sex is bad, bad, bad and you gays that go to parks and rest stops and bookstores and baths and internet chat rooms are all going to grow old alone or get AIDS and no one will ever love you. You should go to church and be in a support group and find a cause and settle down and get married. Why back in the good old days we had community...

Excuse me but when exactly was this Golden Age? Gay life now is SO much easier than when I was a teen. You don't have to leave home and move to a big city. You don't have to go to smoke-filled bars to find a boyfriend or a sex partner. You don't have to speak in code (I think he's Lutheran) or wear a stupid colored hankie. Things have opened up so much that you can freakin' GET LEGALLY MARRIED which was completely outer limits 30 years ago. To quote Carly Simon: these are the good old days. Gays have more opportunities now to be whatever we want to be, to have whatever kind of relationship we want, be it marriage and kids or meth fueled bareback orgies. The internet has helped create all these opportunities.

And to add, if not for this forum I wouldn't know anyone, other than my partner, with whom I could talk about HIV. I went to a HIV support group when I was first diagnosed and it was a disaster. If not for the people on this forum I would be less informed and a lot more lonely and isolated.

Offline aliveinla

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Re: Has Manhunt destroyed gay culture?
« Reply #21 on: August 07, 2008, 10:38:33 PM »
For me it's adam4adam, that's where all my great hookups came from. Somehow manhunt encounters were never as good as they appeared to be.
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Offline thunter34

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Re: Has Manhunt destroyed gay culture?
« Reply #22 on: August 07, 2008, 11:01:08 PM »
Gays have more opportunities now to be whatever we want to be, to have whatever kind of relationship we want, be it marriage and kids or meth fueled bareback orgies.

Eep.  Between the two, I still vote for meth fueled bareback orgies.  Sorry.  Just sayin'.

AIDS isn't for sissies.

Offline David_CA

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Re: Has Manhunt destroyed gay culture?
« Reply #23 on: August 07, 2008, 11:02:26 PM »
In smaller town and rural areas, the options to meet other gay men are sparse.  The internet has surely helped in that respect.  In fact, I've met quite a few friends (not only sex buddies) on gay sites.  Back in the day, when AOL was big around here, an online friend got my hubby and I talking.  A chat on the phone and then a late-night dinner was all it took.  Nine years later we're still together.  Personally, I'm very thankful for such services. 

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Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Has Manhunt destroyed gay culture?
« Reply #24 on: August 07, 2008, 11:03:49 PM »
I think my all time strangest internet hookup was from (clutch the pearls) a yahoo chat room in the late 90's.  I pranced all the way up to the South Bronx for it, and he turned out to be this bizarre SanterŪa priest from Puerto Rico, his tiny living room complete with a tower of "Orisha" urns that contained spirits, and I was not allowed to look inside of any of them.

I must say, however, that he was certainly one of most enthusiastic rimmers I've ever encountered, and I've met my fair share.  He just chugged along for what seemed like hours... obviously enjoyed that more than anything in life, other than his priestly duties.  I'd just had anal wart surgery months earlier so my ass lips were like an orchid.

I will qualify my opinions on this topic, and say that I still prefer "the hunt" that occurs in a bar.  Bathhouses have a similar hunt, but they're usually more desperate than in a bar.  I always love the "posey" aspect of a bar, only because I excelled in it.  Of course, you end up spending a fortune on top shelf vodka during an expedition.  I was such a bar fly for a while that I didn't even have to do more than walk up to the bar -- they'd recite my drink with it's slight special preparation and a large smile.

Of course, it wasn't until the internet that I managed to crack the secret Jamaican underground.  That's where the really huge hogs live.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2008, 11:05:47 PM by philly267 »
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Offline David_CA

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Re: Has Manhunt destroyed gay culture?
« Reply #25 on: August 07, 2008, 11:04:08 PM »
Eep.  Between the two, I still vote for meth fueled bareback orgies.  Sorry.  Just sayin'.



Now Timmy, the two aren't mutually exclusive, you know.
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Offline thunter34

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Re: Has Manhunt destroyed gay culture?
« Reply #26 on: August 07, 2008, 11:12:29 PM »
Now Timmy, the two aren't mutually exclusive, you know.

Remind me not to recommend you as a sitter.   ;)
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Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Has Manhunt destroyed gay culture?
« Reply #27 on: August 07, 2008, 11:19:45 PM »
I used to know this queen that was so into internet meth orgies that he'd sometimes pawn his computer to pay his overdue broadband fees and dealer.  Now THAT'S fierce.
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline jkinatl2

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Re: Has Manhunt destroyed gay culture?
« Reply #28 on: August 07, 2008, 11:42:33 PM »
No offense. GSO, but our relationship is exactly one of those contentious ones I mentioned. I am sure you are a very nice person, in person. People of high repute have vouched for you. But for some reason, I seem to rub you the wrong way, and vice versa.

perhaps you WOULD say "Barbara please" to me in person. But unless we had a long history, I would see it as a disrespectful and dismissive. A little respect goes an awful long way.

i KNOW there are other forums who have flame wars which make the WORST of AM look like a walk in the park. That's why I don't participate in them. How silly for me to bring the very worst of humanity into my apartment through my internet connection, right? But there have certainly been some flamefests here, and people who are not who they pretend to be (in every, increasingly evil incarnation of that term). This is not a bodybuilding forum. This is a support and information site for people who have a serious illness. I would hold a breast or colon cancer site to similarly strict standards. many of us are raw, some of us are sick, a few of us are dying. Most of us are scared at one point or another. It's a whole different ball of wax than, say, a hobby forum or even a fitness forum for the otherwise healthy.


For the record, I never spoke of a Golden Age. There have been different times, and different technologies, each one creates it's own opportunities and problems. I used to live in midtown Atlanta, and enjoyed the twenty-four hour club scene to the fullest. Moving a dozen miles away really did change a lot.

(this is really directed at philly, who brought up the salient point of urban centers and their influence on attitudes and accessibility. Things here in the ATL have changed, de-centralized an awful lot. It was never really a walking town for the gay folks, and with the gentrification of the heart of the gay midtown area, it is even less so)

I stopped going out quite so much when I moved a bit to the north, though fully supported the club scene for anyone who wanted to partake. I mourned when the city suspended/revoked all twenty-four hour club licenses. And when the midtown club scene, the gay area in general, became too pricey for gay people to live there, I saw a real difference in the population. What used to be almost all-gay apartments became yuppie co-ops and condos. Bars and dance halls were bulldozed in favor of condos and high rises that went for hundreds of thousands of dollars. There became few places for guys to walk from place to place, and though there are still some wonderful enclaves, it's nothing like the "gay ghetto" that it was.

Gay guys in Atlanta DO live in midtown, in the historically gay districts. But more and more, they live in the suburbs, or the near-burbs. Places where they can afford. Which is NOT necessarily a bad thing. It's just a change. And part of that change is reflected by the internet hookup sites. Yes, there are (and have always been) sex clubs and baths in the city. And yep, the adult novelty shops still have booths for sexual activity. I simply fail to understand why someone does not see the difference between having a place where someone has to make the effort to visit as opposed to a delivery service that removes even that minimal effort.

And frankly, what two consenting adults do is their own business. But to pretend that the community has not changed boggles my mind. Some of the changes I applaud, and am happy to see. Some, especially the meth/HIV connection, threaten to undo decades of safer sex education - as noted in the continued rise of new infections among gay men EVEN as more and more civil and legal rights have been hard won. I don't blame meth solely for the infection rate, of course. But the disenfranchisement which comes with isolationism cannot be overlooked.

In my opinion.



Sorry to go on so long. I cannot honestly think of anything I can add to the discussion.
"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

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Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Has Manhunt destroyed gay culture?
« Reply #29 on: August 07, 2008, 11:55:09 PM »
I simply fail to understand why someone does not see the difference between having a place where someone has to make the effort to visit as opposed to a delivery service that removes even that minimal effort.

Oh, I see it -- I just don't find it important unless one has a sex addiction issue.  It's just like meth fueled orgies don't bother me, because I'm not a meth addict.

Someone with either of those issues is still going to get their fix.

As far as "the community changing" well, what can you say?  Cities, societies, communities... all feature constant change.  The entire OP article is ridiculous because of its use of "normative way of socializing" -- sounds like something Tony Perkins would cook up.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2008, 12:01:11 AM by philly267 »
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Offline David_CA

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Re: Has Manhunt destroyed gay culture?
« Reply #30 on: August 08, 2008, 12:09:50 AM »
And to think people say that queens are so dramatic!
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Offline fearless

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Re: Has Manhunt destroyed gay culture?
« Reply #31 on: August 08, 2008, 12:44:02 AM »
Whatever the answer turns out to be, it will involve creating social structures that serve and gratify our desire to have sex with each other and also promote and support the possibility of developing and sustaining intimate relationships. Gay men came close to the goal of building such a society when they were hit with the plague of AIDS. That generation learned the rewards of sacrifice and of setting limits on the place of sex in our culture.

What a lot of rot. My recollection of Sydney pre-AIDS was that it was one big drug filled orgy. To suggest that gay men had come close to building some ideal society is rubbish and nostaligic clap trap.
Be forgiving, be grateful, be optimistic

Offline aztecan

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Re: Has Manhunt destroyed gay culture?
« Reply #32 on: August 08, 2008, 01:28:20 AM »
Many of you all are too young, with the exception of Joel, Philly and Steve, to remember what life was like BA (before AIDS), which as it happens, was also BI (Before Internet).

If people went to the bars, baths and other meeting places just to hook up, get off and go home, then you are correct, nothing has changed, You can just get off quicker with the internet, and lie a lot easier.

You can't hide much when all you are wearing is a small towel - folded in half!

I enjoyed more than my share of sex, whether it was at a bathhouse, the backroom of a club or at a residence. But I also enjoyed many wonderful evenings when hooking up was not the main event, nor did I care that it wasn't.

We had actual conversations, not typed and hyped internet babble or, Goddes forbid, text messaging.

We also were members of organizations that used to do really bizarre things - like go camping. Others were square dancers. Why there were even occasions when gays and lesbians interacted socially.  :o :o :o

The original article had some valid points and did Jonathan's response. It isn't that I am railing against internet sex, but I can see how it is inhibiting the socialization of gay people.

It is like when I hear "gay" men who say, "I'm not into the gay scene or bars."

OK, what are they into? I have news for them, nobody looks straight when they're down on their knees. There are even lyrics to a "gay" song that discuss this very topic;

People may think I am digressing, but this is right on track. Without the cohesion of gay society, we have nothing to bind us and help us stand in support of each other.

It was that cohesion that allowed the gay community to come together and help those living - or rather succumbing to AIDS in the early days.

It sure as hell wasn't the internet wizards lending a helping hand, or Ronald (thank goddess that fucking vegetable is dead ) Reagan who came to the aid of his fellow countrymen.

It was the members of the gay community who came together, who protested (ask Peter Staley, he was there), and who changed the depends of those whose bowels were no longer controllable.

It sure wasn't the xristians, muslims, jews or athiests, or any of their ilk.

The only connecting factor was their sexuality.

Its rather like the AM gatherings. While there are many people I enjoy reading here, once I got to meet them in the flesh and spend a week  with them, they became my AM family, not just a bunch of people posting on a website.

While I believe there are good points to the internet, I also see its shortcomings and the effects those shortcomings are having on gay society and society as a whole

Just my 2Ę worth.

HUGS,

Mark


« Last Edit: August 08, 2008, 01:38:11 AM by aztecan »
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Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Has Manhunt destroyed gay culture?
« Reply #33 on: August 08, 2008, 01:47:32 AM »
Many of you all are too young, with the exception of Joel, Philly and Steve, to remember what life was like BA (before AIDS),

And Mary please... I ain't old enough to know much pre-AIDS.  I was 16 when it first appeared.

And no offense darling, but you live in bumfuck sagebrush territory now -- how are you sure there aren't gay square dancing events still going on?
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline aztecan

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Re: Has Manhunt destroyed gay culture?
« Reply #34 on: August 08, 2008, 01:57:47 AM »
And Mary please... I ain't old enough to know much pre-AIDS.  I was 16 when it first appeared.

And no offense darling, but you live in bumfuck sagebrush territory now -- how are you sure there aren't gay square dancing events still going on?

 ;D ;D ;D

I knew that would get you!

Actually, I think the square dancers are still around, as are the gay pagans.  :)

But at the same time, there are only two gay bars and one lesbian bar left in Albuquerque. the rest have disappeared.

I know there aren't fewer fags out there, so they must be hooking up from some other location, which is probably the internet.

By the way, when will you come to visit? I know this delightful morman man who enjoys a fling in the sling - but only when he can get away from the wife and five kids.

Gotta luv the net.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2008, 02:00:13 AM by aztecan »
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Offline Mouse

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Re: Has Manhunt destroyed gay culture?
« Reply #35 on: August 08, 2008, 02:08:03 AM »
Do you think if we set up a hookup site for gay square dancers they will start to dissipate, too?  :D

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Has Manhunt destroyed gay culture?
« Reply #36 on: August 08, 2008, 02:18:06 AM »

By the way, when will you come to visit? I know this delightful morman man who enjoys a fling in the sling - but only when he can get away from the wife and five kids.

Gotta luv the net.


I actually may visit at some point, in Albuquerque.  My oldest girlfriend that I met in 1st grade lives there now.  It's hard to believe that I still know someone I met in 1st grade, but there you go.
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline LatinAlexander

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Re: Has Manhunt destroyed gay culture?
« Reply #37 on: August 08, 2008, 06:47:37 AM »

Actually, I think the square dancers are still around, as are the gay pagans.  :)


Just for the sake of Queer culture knowledge. What are Square dancers and Gay Pagans?

LatinAlexander (Wondering about how the world was)

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Offline loop78

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Re: Has Manhunt destroyed gay culture?
« Reply #38 on: August 08, 2008, 07:38:52 AM »
The internet ate my homework!

Well, not really, but it's obviously an evil evil thing. The same as anonymous sex or Martha Stewart.

Now, seriously, only Martha is really evil. :P

The internet has stirred lots of social changes, as tv did not so long ago or any technical advance of real relevance. We can keep mourning for the golden old times, or adapt and take advantage of what's on offer.

That being said, I don't see any link between meth use and the net. I've been online for ages, and everytime i've seen meth use, it's been in real life. Same with the club culture: here it's still blooming at the same time as online hook-up sites. I believe that if the internet has meant somewhere the disappearance of clubs, it's been because of fear of being identified as gay and homophobia. It's been quite a long time since pizza delivery appeared in our lives, and still we keep going to Italian restaurants. ;)


And to add a geeky side to my answer...

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=jhTxRssxfuI

Offline mjmel

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Re: Has Manhunt destroyed gay culture?
« Reply #39 on: August 08, 2008, 08:14:18 AM »
Just for the sake of Queer culture knowledge. What are Square dancers and Gay Pagans?

LatinAlexander (Wondering about how the world was)



Dear, dear, Alex...

some square dancing for your viewing pleasure (high probability of some gay pagans in their mist):
http://hk.youtube.com/watch?v=_9oSw_MqPTg
http://hk.youtube.com/watch?v=iOOjhIeZWOg&NR=1

 :-*

Offline GSOgymrat

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Re: Has Manhunt destroyed gay culture?
« Reply #40 on: August 08, 2008, 08:42:11 AM »
No offense. GSO, but our relationship is exactly one of those contentious ones I mentioned. I am sure you are a very nice person, in person. People of high repute have vouched for you. But for some reason, I seem to rub you the wrong way, and vice versa.

perhaps you WOULD say "Barbara please" to me in person. But unless we had a long history, I would see it as a disrespectful and dismissive. A little respect goes an awful long way.

I would only say "Barbara please" to you in person if I liked you and felt comfortable with you. I'm not saying it on here to dismiss you. I just couldn't let your comment about people on this forum being so horrible to you go unchallenged. The "golden age" comment was referring back to the tone of the original article. I agree with you that the gay ghetto is fading and I agree that it is not necessarily a bad thing. Part of that change is because all kinds of people are wanting to live in cities again, which is great!

And on the subject of gay culture, it seems gay cruises are becoming the hot new way to socialize for those who can afford them, thus demonstrating that if there is a void someone will find a way to fill it and make a profit.

Offline atlq

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Re: Has Manhunt destroyed gay culture?
« Reply #41 on: August 08, 2008, 09:04:04 AM »

Excuse me but when exactly was this Golden Age? Gay life now is SO much easier than when I was a teen. You don't have to leave home and move to a big city. You don't have to go to smoke-filled bars to find a boyfriend or a sex partner. You don't have to speak in code (I think he's Lutheran) or wear a stupid colored hankie. Things have opened up so much that you can freakin' GET LEGALLY MARRIED which was completely outer limits 30 years ago. To quote Carly Simon: these are the good old days. Gays have more opportunities now to be whatever we want to be, to have whatever kind of relationship we want, be it marriage and kids or meth fueled bareback orgies. The internet has helped create all these opportunities.

And to add, if not for this forum I wouldn't know anyone, other than my partner, with whom I could talk about HIV. I went to a HIV support group when I was first diagnosed and it was a disaster. If not for the people on this forum I would be less informed and a lot more lonely and isolated.


Exactly.....Are there new issues surrounding human interaction and the internet that we should thoughtfully address?

Sure, but to paraphrase some British guy from a while back..." The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars (or the iinternet),
but in ourselves..."
ďKeep up the good work....   And God bless you.Ē
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Offline Iggy

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Re: Has Manhunt destroyed gay culture?
« Reply #42 on: August 08, 2008, 09:10:52 AM »
I think everything can be taken out of context if one wishes.

I don't know the world pre-AIDS (at least at a sexually active age) but I did know and operate in a world pre-internet:

  • When I was a teen I got crabs in Central Park several times as well as skirted two bashing attacks there, and had to help one guy who had just gotten attacked.  I also was almost arrested there once with a cop car shining a light on me mid act.

    My wallet was stolen at a video arcade on the West side Highway (which afterwards I learned to place it in my shoe whenever I went to such places)

    Twice I hooked up with guys I met in a bar who seemed great until we got to their respective place and they went 180 on me and I had to basically run for the nearest exit.

    I also would find myself spending ridiculous amounts of money (for my after school job income) in bars on cover charges and beers (and tips...but at least then one could expect buybacks from the bartenders on a regular basis then) not to mention time.

    And for all the guys who are written off as meth addicts who stay up all night on Manhunt, I can remember just as many alcoholics who would spend every night in the bars.  Granted I think Meth is a more powerful and destructive addiction, but I think in the context of "gay culture" both can be cited in their time as a destructive force in the gay community.

All that said, I do agree that there is something lost in the ease of sex hook-ups (or at least pursuit of sex hook-ups) online.   

It does make it harder to have chance encounters with people you might connect with for reasons other then just sex.  Also, the basic nature of how we connect online in places like manhunt (which focus on individual advertisements that that feature primarily just a picture(s) and often generic text along with pat answers to broad questions like Party: yes or no) does encourage (though not require) a more shallow criteria for how one chooses to contact another.

I also get something that Jonathan mentioned above about dialogue online vs. offline. 

While I agree that it is true that some people find their courage online where they can say things through a keyboard that they wouldn't say in a face to face setting, there is also an equally large issue of how the written word can not convey something as simple as a tone of voice or facial expressions (I know there are webcam groups out there, but I'm focusing on things like manhunt and basic interent type hook-ups). 

The bottom line for me is that gay culture, like any culture is affected by the times and the events of the times.  I don't see Manhunt any more responsible for the destruction of gay culture then I do a fluff magazine like OUT which glorifies through their pictorial and advertisement choices  smooth twinks with no body fat as the acceptable and desirable image of gay men.

Like I said, it's all in the context.



« Last Edit: August 08, 2008, 09:12:57 AM by Iggy »

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: Has Manhunt destroyed gay culture?
« Reply #43 on: August 08, 2008, 10:33:01 AM »
Oy! The Stupid! It Burns!!!

MtD  ::)
(Who notes this to be the Dumbest Thread Ever)

Offline LatinAlexander

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Re: Has Manhunt destroyed gay culture?
« Reply #44 on: August 08, 2008, 11:10:53 AM »
Dear, dear, Alex...

some square dancing for your viewing pleasure (high probability of some gay pagans in their mist):
http://hk.youtube.com/watch?v=_9oSw_MqPTg
http://hk.youtube.com/watch?v=iOOjhIeZWOg&NR=1

 :-*

WOW, nice!!!!!. I mean, they seem to really enjoy. But I think that is not really something for me, cause I am not a good dancer, I guess.

Thank you

Alex
Poz since Jul 19 2006
Initial numbers : CD4-250 VL 3500
First labs after HAART (Dec 04-2006) : CD4-432 VL-<40 (Undetectable)  cd4%=25.11%
Started HAART: Combivir+Efavirenz Aug 26 7:38 pm
Feb 08 2007 - Gradually stopping HAART cause of Myalgia. Protecting Efavirenz. Stopped Efavirenz, ahead with Combivir....
February 17 Combivir stopped.
April 3 -07 : Started ddi+3tc+efavirenz...
Gay and positive (What a lack of Identity...:) )
Looking for my Ben....

Offline David_CA

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Re: Has Manhunt destroyed gay culture?
« Reply #45 on: August 08, 2008, 11:16:42 AM »
And on the subject of gay culture, it seems gay cruises are becoming the hot new way to socialize for those who can afford them, thus demonstrating that if there is a void someone will find a way to fill it and make a profit.

And, for several members of these forums, gay camgrounds are a great way to socialize with other gay men.  They're certainly cheaper than a cruise (assuming one is relatively close), safer than parks, and full of the interaction that's absent from internet hook-ups / meetings.

As to people being nice in person and abusive online... I've noticed the inverse just as often.  There are a few members here who I liked online but have really seen them show their asses in person. 

I'm sure somewhere somebody said that telephones, radios, and televisions were ruining society.  I do see a change as we (gay men and women) become more mainstream and integrated.  I'm not so sure that it's because of the internet, though.  I think it's just the natural evolution that occurs over time.  There is, however, a certain attraction (at least to me) to being somewhat out of the mainstream, to having 'our' bars in seedy parts of town, etc.  There is a certain freedom that gay men seem to have that's absent in straight men.  A lot of this is likely due to marriage / families.  I just hope that when we are able to marry that we retain some of our 'uniqueness'. 
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06-01-06 CD4 462 @24.3% VL > 100,000
08-15-06 CD4 388 @22.8% VL >  "
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  Atripla started 12-01-2006
01-08-07 CD4 429 @26.8% VL 1872!
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02-17-10 CD4 678 @39.9%  
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09-21-10 CD4 685 @40.3%
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Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Has Manhunt destroyed gay culture?
« Reply #46 on: August 08, 2008, 11:29:58 AM »
This thread reminds me of when my parents refused to use ATM cards when they first came out, because they preferred the human touch of a bank teller window.  Of course, they love their ATM cards now.
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline Iggy

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Re: Has Manhunt destroyed gay culture?
« Reply #47 on: August 08, 2008, 12:03:03 PM »
Does anyone still use ATM cards?

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Has Manhunt destroyed gay culture?
« Reply #48 on: August 08, 2008, 12:09:42 PM »
Well, I suppose technically they're all called "debit cards" now, no?  Then again, I do not work at a bank.  I've had a Visa logo on my debit card now for 20 years, as I signed up with them when they first came out.  My parents will not use the card for point-of-sale debits anywhere, only in a bank machine.  I think they use the "we want mileage points" now though.

I've trained my parents to be technically savy and progressive by now.  They're fully on board with FIOS, cell phones and computers now -- though I have to troubleshoot something every time I visit.
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline Iggy

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Re: Has Manhunt destroyed gay culture?
« Reply #49 on: August 08, 2008, 12:13:19 PM »
I think they use the "we want mileage points" now though.

Which brings us back full circle to Manhunt

 


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