Quantcast

Subscribe to:
POZ magazine
Newsletters
Join POZ: Facebook MySpace Twitter Pinterest
Tumblr Google+ Flickr Instagram
POZ Personals
Sign In / Join
Username:
Password:
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
December 27, 2014, 08:10:13 AM

Login with username, password and session length


Members
Stats
  • Total Posts: 650507
  • Total Topics: 49666
  • Online Today: 195
  • Online Ever: 585
  • (January 07, 2014, 02:31:47 PM)
Users Online

Welcome


Welcome to the POZ/AIDSmeds Community Forums, a round-the-clock discussion area for people with HIV/AIDS, their friends/family/caregivers, and others concerned about HIV/AIDS.  Click on the links below to browse our various forums; scroll down for a glance at the most recent posts; or join in the conversation yourself by registering on the left side of this page.

Privacy Warning:  Please realize that these forums are open to all, and are fully searchable via Google and other search engines. If you are HIV positive and disclose this in our forums, then it is almost the same thing as telling the whole world (or at least the World Wide Web). If this concerns you, then do not use a username or avatar that are self-identifying in any way. We do not allow the deletion of anything you post in these forums, so think before you post.

  • The information shared in these forums, by moderators and members, is designed to complement, not replace, the relationship between an individual and his/her own physician.

  • All members of these forums are, by default, not considered to be licensed medical providers. If otherwise, users must clearly define themselves as such.

  • Forums members must behave at all times with respect and honesty. Posting guidelines, including time-out and banning policies, have been established by the moderators of these forums. Click here for “Am I Infected?” posting guidelines. Click here for posting guidelines pertaining to all other POZ/AIDSmeds community forums.

  • We ask all forums members to provide references for health/medical/scientific information they provide, when it is not a personal experience being discussed. Please provide hyperlinks with full URLs or full citations of published works not available via the Internet. Additionally, all forums members must post information which are true and correct to their knowledge.

  • Product advertisement—including links; banners; editorial content; and clinical trial, study or survey participation—is strictly prohibited by forums members unless permission has been secured from POZ.

To change forums navigation language settings, click here (members only), Register now

Para cambiar sus preferencias de los foros en español, haz clic aquí (sólo miembros), Regístrate ahora

Finished Reading This? You can collapse this or any other box on this page by clicking the symbol in each box.

Author Topic: negative and not-so-negative friends  (Read 6858 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline newt

  • Member
  • Posts: 3,887
  • the one and original newt
negative and not-so-negative friends
« on: July 31, 2008, 07:36:40 PM »
What do you say when you neg and end-up-not-so neg freinds continue to shag w/o condoms, even with people they knows is HIV-positive? I mean, apart from stupid fuck! It's not good saying the meds have horrid side effects, even though sometimes they do, I am a living testament to not-significant side effects. So what do you say? Especially to the oh so stupid Q "do you get more bareback sex now you positive"?

I may give up on this conversation.

- matt

Now playing: Johnny Cash, Bridge Over Troubled Water
"The object is to be a well patient, not a good patient"

Offline Matty the Damned

  • Member
  • Posts: 12,244
  • Ninja Please
Re: negative and not-so-negative friends
« Reply #1 on: July 31, 2008, 09:26:29 PM »
I say people are free to make their own decisions, no matter how stupid they might be.

MtD
(Who frequently exercises his freedom to make stupid decisions)

Offline dusty99

  • Member
  • Posts: 103
Re: negative and not-so-negative friends
« Reply #2 on: July 31, 2008, 10:21:42 PM »
I know a lot of people do bareback sex, since they feel that the worst has happened (these being Poz/Poz) and they argue that there is no proof that things can be made worse (not saying I agree) and the fact that bareback sex feels better they justify the point. At this point though, the decision is theirs to make and they do know the ramifications. Many feel it is stupid and many don't. I would agree without a doubt, that Poz/Neg bareback sex is stupid, however; again, if both parties are aware of the other's status, it is their choice to make. Again, I am not advocating the latter, but it is their choice.
17 Mar 08: diagnosed
31 Mar 08 CD4: 565,  30%  VL: 28,900
21 May 08 CD4: 600,  37%  VL: 13,000
25 Oct 08  CD4: 308   34%  VL: 68,000
19 Nov 08 Started Atripla
16 Dec 08  CD4: 580   42% VL: 70
27 Jan 09  CD4: 490   41%  VL: undetectable
24 Mar 09  CD4: 565   42%  VL: undetectable
30 Jun 09  CD4: 615    41% VL: undetectable
25 Sep 09  CD4: 595    47% VL: undetectable

Offline northernguy

  • Member
  • Posts: 1,347
Re: negative and not-so-negative friends
« Reply #3 on: August 01, 2008, 12:04:17 AM »
I just don't think negative people realize all the little slings and arrows that go with being positive.  Is it the med side-effects that are the worst?  Even if HAART has helped tame many of the OI's, what about all the little things you get to enjoy:  the fatigue, the skin issues, the possibly cancerous anal warts, the greatly increased visits to various doctors etc.  :(
Apr 28/06 cd4 600 vl 10,600 cd% 25
Nov 8/09 cd4 510 vl 49,5000 cd% 16
Jan 16/10 cd4 660 vl 54,309 cd% 16
Feb 17/10 Started Atripla
Mar 7/10 cd4 710 vl 1,076 cd% 21
Apr 18/10 cd4 920 vl 268 cd% 28
Jun 19/10 cd4 450 vl 60 cd% 25
Aug 15/10 cd4 680 vl 205 cd% 27
Apr 3/11 cd4 780 vl <40 cd% 30
Jul 17/11 cd4 960 vl <40 cd%33
April 15/12 cd4 1,010 vl <40 cd% 39
April 20/12 Switched to Viramune + Truvada
Aug 2/12 cd4 1040, vl <40, cd% 38
Oct 19 cd4 1,110 vl <40 cd% 41

Offline Ann

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • Posts: 28,140
  • It just is, OK?
    • Num is sum qui mentiar tibi?
Re: negative and not-so-negative friends
« Reply #4 on: August 01, 2008, 12:36:29 AM »
Good fucking question Matt the Newt.

And what the hell do you say when a friend of many years ends up in your bed - knowing full well your status - and removes his condom not once, but three fucking times?

Well, I know what I said: "cum on my tits you stupid bastard cuz that's the nearest you're gonna get."

That and "No, you can't see me next weekend".

Pity, said bastard is hung.


 :P  ::)  :-\


edited to say.... I knew said bastard took his condom off because I DON'T have short arms.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2008, 12:41:29 AM by Ann »
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

tendai

  • Guest
Re: negative and not-so-negative friends
« Reply #5 on: August 01, 2008, 07:20:38 AM »
me, i'd just tell them its a bad idea and if they refuse to listen then on their heads be it..

Ann: what a pity indeed..

Offline allopathicholistic

  • Member
  • Posts: 3,258
Re: negative and not-so-negative friends
« Reply #6 on: August 01, 2008, 08:08:58 AM »
well i guess nowadays i would suggest the female condom because some tops think it has a 'raw feel' and bottoms like it because tops dont go flaccid. but i realize there are people who are absolutely determined to be human sperm banks and wutnot - so for those people i wouldn't know what to tell them - they're going to do what they want regardless

Offline woodshere

  • Member
  • Posts: 1,477
  • ain't no shame in my game
Re: negative and not-so-negative friends
« Reply #7 on: August 01, 2008, 09:02:08 AM »
A guy participating in bareback sex when he's neg is the same as a person with heart disease that continues to smoke and eat 3 meals a day at McDonald's or the one who suffers from diabetes but still can't give up the sweets or the motorcycle rider who doesn't wear a helmet when riding.  All four know the risks but continue to engage in said behavior.  All we can do is continue to "preach" and educate. If anyone can figure out how to change that type behavior in all people you deserve a Nobel Prize.
"Let us give pubicity to HV/AIDS and not hide it..." "One of the things destroying people with AIDS is the stigma we attach to it."   Nelson Mandela

Offline Alain

  • Member
  • Posts: 680
  • I am.
Re: negative and not-so-negative friends
« Reply #8 on: August 01, 2008, 09:13:22 AM »
Good question , but what can you say.

After all those years trying to educate and it feels as though we are back to square one.

Peoples will do what they want regardless of the risk.

Right or wrong is not for me to say, except that I know I missed out on a few good fuck just by saying no.

Just me.

Online GSOgymrat

  • Member
  • Posts: 5,054
  • HIV+ since 1993. INTJ
Re: negative and not-so-negative friends
« Reply #9 on: August 01, 2008, 09:19:59 AM »
I would tell them :
- I hope you have a lot of extra money because it costs thousands a year even with insurance. Oh, and don't even think about becoming self-employed because you can't get insurance on your own.
- You're cutting the number of people who will have sex with you in half. You're cutting the number of people who will want a serious relationship with you by three quarters.
- You know how you feel when you are sick? You're going to feel like that a lot and you're going to have to go to work regardless because you have run out of sick days.
- You know how you didn't want to tell your unsupportive family that you're gay? Well you get to tell them that you have lived down to their expectations.
- You know the guys who you can tell by looking at them that they are HIV+? You're probably going to be that guy.

But if little piece of latex is that worrisome knock yourself out.

Offline Peter Staley

  • Member
  • Posts: 1,337
  • Founder & Advisory Editor, AIDSmeds.com
    • AIDSmeds.com
Re: negative and not-so-negative friends
« Reply #10 on: August 01, 2008, 09:24:01 AM »
Matt -- this just rips me up inside as well.  As an activist, I feel helpless in the face of rising HIV rates among young gay men.  It looks inevitable that close to half of them will end up HIV positive by the time they are in their 40s (according to recent studies).

My hunch is that one of the big problems is a lack of knowledge among neggies about their primary source of risk.  They think it's the guy who knows he's poz.  If the neggie tells all pozzies "HIV-UB2" to keep the pozzies away, then they think they might be safe to bareback.

But of course their biggest risk isn't the guy who knows he's poz.  In fact that guy is probably on meds, undetectable, and actually very low risk to bareback with.  His biggest risk is the guy just like him, who used "HIV-UB2" as an excuse to bareback, and is very recently infected, doesn't know it, and has a VL off the charts.  THESE are the guys that are causing all the new infections among young gay men.

If our governments actually gave the gay community some real prevention dollars/pounds to play with, we could launch huge prevention campaigns (ad campaigns, group counseling programs, the works) that would attempt to close this knowledge gap.  At the same time, we could launch campaigns that attempt to empower young gay men, instilling a positive sense of community and self respect, and reinforcing a community norm that emphasises health, friendship, and love as opposed to substance abuse and sexual addictions (like staying up all night browsing manhunt, etc.).

I'm just free-thinking here, but I feel sometimes like I'm grasping at straws, and that as Larry Kramer often tells me, "prevention doesn't work."  It depresses me to no end.

One thing I don't subscribe to is Kramer's blame game.  This isn't about gross irresponsibility (although there is plenty of that to condemn, like bugchasers and giftgivers).  This is about basic human nature.  It's the same reason millions of young kids got hooked on smoking cigarettes.  I would note that because of a huge government and private effort to reduce youth smoking in the U.S., largely funded by the successful lawsuits against big tobacco, there's been a significant drop in cigarette use in the targetting groups.  So in this case, prevention DOES work.  

So in my mind, the reason some think HIV prevention can't work with gay men is that we've really never tried it in any real way -- we've never had the dollars or national commitment that amounted to a serious effort.

Peter

Online GSOgymrat

  • Member
  • Posts: 5,054
  • HIV+ since 1993. INTJ
Re: negative and not-so-negative friends
« Reply #11 on: August 01, 2008, 09:47:52 AM »
It's the same reason millions of young kids got hooked on smoking cigarettes.  I would note that because of a huge government and private effort to reduce youth smoking in the U.S., largely funded by the successful lawsuits against big tobacco, there's been a significant drop in cigarette use in the targetting groups.  So in this case, prevention DOES work.

Tobacco use is a pretty good analogy and makes a case that prevention is effective. A better analogy would be obesity because eating and having sex are basic human needs, where tobacco use isn't.

Offline David_CA

  • Member
  • Posts: 3,246
  • Joined: March 2006
Re: negative and not-so-negative friends
« Reply #12 on: August 01, 2008, 10:04:41 AM »
A guy participating in bareback sex when he's neg is the same as a person with heart disease that continues to smoke and eat 3 meals a day at McDonald's or the one who suffers from diabetes but still can't give up the sweets or the motorcycle rider who doesn't wear a helmet when riding.  All four know the risks but continue to engage in said behavior. 

Exactly!  The difference is that so many people with HIV / AIDS hide their status.  By doing this, we also hide what we're suffering from - side effects of meds, lack of affordable insurance, etc.  I know many guys who don't 'look' like they are HIV+.  We don't publicize the folks lying in hospital beds barely living like in the early days of AIDS.  It seems like, to the general public, HIV / AIDS is a problem in Africa, not in 'our' country.  You know, out of sight, out of mind.  In-depth education on HIV is not that prevalent these days... at least from what I've seen.  I know I am a whole lot more knowledgeable about it since becoming HIV+.  The series on PBS a couple of years ago was the most information I've ever seen on HIV.  We need more of this type of education, perhaps not in as many segments and not on PBS, but on mainstream TV.  There's got to be some better way of education people.  I know when I smoked back in the '80's I read the health warnings on the cigarette packs.  I was consciously aware of the health issues.  It took a few years, but I finally quit smoking in '90.  If dicks had similar warnings, you know, something like 'Putting this into your anus or vagina without a condom can lead to HIV, AIDS, and death,' maybe I wouldn't be on this site today.  In the heat of the moment is not the time to think about / rationalize / justify unprotected sex (when one is HIV negative).

David
Black Friday 03-03-2006
03-23-06 CD4 359 @27.4% VL 75,938
06-01-06 CD4 462 @24.3% VL > 100,000
08-15-06 CD4 388 @22.8% VL >  "
10-21-06 CD4 285 @21.9% VL >  "
  Atripla started 12-01-2006
01-08-07 CD4 429 @26.8% VL 1872!
05-08-07 CD4 478 @28.1% VL 740
08-03-07 CD4 509 @31.8% VL 370
11-06-07 CD4 570 @30.0% VL 140
02-21-08 CD4 648 @32.4% VL 600
05-19-08 CD4 695 @33.1% VL < 48 undetectable!
08-21-08 CD4 725 @34.5%
11-11-08 CD4 672 @39.5%
02-11-09 CD4 773 @36.8%
05-11-09 CD4 615 @36.2%
08-19-09 CD4 770 @38.5%
11-19-09 CD4 944 @33.7%
02-17-10 CD4 678 @39.9%  
06-03-10 CD4 768 @34.9%
09-21-10 CD4 685 @40.3%
01-10-11 CD4 908 @36.3%
05-23-11 CD4 846 @36.8% VL 80
02-13-12 CD4 911 @41.4% VL<20
You must be the change you want to see in the world.  Mahatma Gandhi

Offline woodshere

  • Member
  • Posts: 1,477
  • ain't no shame in my game
Re: negative and not-so-negative friends
« Reply #13 on: August 01, 2008, 10:05:57 AM »
......campaigns that attempt to empower young gay men, instilling a positive sense of community and self respect, and reinforcing a community norm that emphasises health, friendship, and love as opposed to substance abuse and sexual addictions (like staying up all night browsing manhunt, etc.).......

Education is of course extremely important, especially among the "HIV-UB2" mindset.  However, if we don't drastically address the above it will go for naught.  I am no expert, but based on my personal experience and that of those I talk with the sex is only the means used to gain the goal, that of some feeling of self worth or value or feeling wanted.  Go to any back room, sex club or book store and watch the number of guys who have multiple sex partners, is it really about the "hot" sex or about conquests and being chosen and finding someone that feeds that desire to be needed or feel good about yourself.  (spoken by someone with vast knowledge and experience about it not being the "hot" sex)
"Let us give pubicity to HV/AIDS and not hide it..." "One of the things destroying people with AIDS is the stigma we attach to it."   Nelson Mandela

Offline AlanBama

  • Member
  • Posts: 3,647
  • Alabama: the 'other' 3rd World Country!
Re: negative and not-so-negative friends
« Reply #14 on: August 01, 2008, 10:37:43 AM »
It frustrates me to no end that education / prevention doesn't appear to be working at all.   As Peter says, perhaps if we put some REAL money behind it, we could make a difference.

I do know this:  HIV+ people as well as the neg's are suffering as a result of this.   My clinic nurse told me yesterday that this year alone, they have over 300 new patients at the Univ of Alabama at Birmingham 1917 AIDS Clinic (and we are just a little over halfway through 2008!)  They are so overwhelmed, NONE of us are going to receive the highest quality care.

There should be HIV prevention TV commercials and billboards EVERYWHERE.
I very rarely see any messages of prevention.   Our prevention messages at AIDS clinics and in magazines like POZ are not reaching the 'target' audience.
(If you're getting the message there, it's already TOO LATE.)

Matt, to the neg and not-so-neg friends (and all gay men, young and old alike) I think our message needs to be more about hitting them "where it hurts" - their LOOKS.    Obviously, they seem to think the meds are a walk in the park, so that's not deterring them.   If they saw more images of lipo'd
misshapen faces and bodies, perhaps that might do more good.  Who knows?

It makes me incredibly sad.   :'(
"Remember my sentimental friend that a heart is not judged by how much you love, but by how much you are loved by others." - The Wizard of Oz

Offline Cliff

  • Member
  • Posts: 2,645
Re: negative and not-so-negative friends
« Reply #15 on: August 01, 2008, 11:19:36 AM »
So what do you say?
Probably not a whole lot.  Maybe remind him of the consequences.  But he knows it all.  You're not going to tell him something new.  Adding more pressure and guilt to the situation may only make it worse.

Offline pozniceguy

  • Member
  • Posts: 1,186
  • Niceguy Dallas
Re: negative and not-so-negative friends
« Reply #16 on: August 01, 2008, 12:37:52 PM »
This  is a case for the whole issue of basic education,  not a campaign that will eventually die  for lack of interest or funds ,    It took several generations of trying to just get "sex" education into the mainstream education process.....this needs to be a solid subject treated at the fundamental level when ''sex" is introduced to youngsters.  Whether it is part of a school program..a basic book for parents.. maybe even  part of a Sesame street thread that is worked in to "relationships"  messages......
Trying to "change" almost any rationalized behavior is a very difficult task and requires a strong desire on the part of the person who  is to be changed....  once a a person has put the type of   rationalization in place that encourages this behavior then it is a super difficult uphill battle to change that behavior.....
The idea that  Woods  sets out is a fundamental issue " image"  , usually visual , is a very strong ingrained but learned behavior....  everybody wants to be "loved"   

I am all for an activity that will press school boards to put this into curricula at the most basic sex classes and up into the high schools.....  for a real fight try  getting this type of education attached to any Federal grant money..

Great timing on introducing this subject again......I think this rates pretty close to the best subjects we can support on a local and national level......
I think our Jan is the model to work with...she seems to have the support of an enlightened group that works the national level in New Zealand ....they have mounted a very aggressive campaign/education model...

Nick
remember the good times...honor the past but don't live there
Le stelle la notte sono grandie luminose, nel cuore profondo del Texas

Offline jabez

  • Member
  • Posts: 97
Re: negative and not-so-negative friends
« Reply #17 on: August 01, 2008, 11:59:25 PM »
I hate to say this because it sounds so shallow, but we need to talk more about DIARRHEA.    If someone had told me in 1995 that I would be plagued the rest of my life with these god-awful outbursts of the SQUIRTS, I believe I would've used a fucking condom.   Young people don't seem to care very much about future financial problems (such as high-priced health insurance and high-priced co-pays), because they think those inevitabilities will somehow work themselves out.  They don't care about the potential side effects of meds, because they think their livers and kidneys will last forever.  They think that being HIV+ is just no big deal.  Take a pill every night, and everything will be all right.  But if you told them that that from the moment of their seroconversion until the day they die, they will be plagued with hideous episodes of DIARRHEA, that might scare them into using condoms. 
Sept 2007 -- CD4 = 68; VL = 469,000
Started Atripla Sept 21, 2007
Nov 2007-CD4=217;VL=332
Feb 2008-CD4=237;VL=<50
Apr 2008-CD4=271;VL=66
Aug 2008-CD4=440;VL=52
Jan 2009-CD4=403;VL=61
May 2009-CD4=480;VL=129
Sep 2009-CD4=376;VL<40
Jan 2010-CD4=476;VL<40
Jul 2010-CD4=539;VL<40
Jan 2011-CD4=461;VL=53
Jul 2011-CD4=515;VL<20
Jan 2012-CD4=506;VL=54
Aug 2012-CD4=440;VL=21
Jan 2013-CD4=447;VL=<20
Jul 2013-CD4=406; VL=<20
Feb 2014-CD4=450; VL=<20
Aug 2014-CD4=535; VL=<20

Offline aztecan

  • Member
  • Posts: 5,430
  • 29 years positive, 57 years a pain in the butt
Re: negative and not-so-negative friends
« Reply #18 on: August 02, 2008, 01:18:33 AM »
Peter made a good point regarding the people who don't know their status and are spreading disease faster than Typhoid Mary.

I rather like Jabez' idea regarding the diarrhea. That is one of the commonalities each of us seems to share.

We could talk about how one never knows when the squirts will hit. Then add a bit about what this can do to your love life. After all, what could be more romantic than soiling the sheets?

There are times I wonder whether Larry Kramer is right and prevention simply doesn't work. But I hope that it would, should it be done it right.

One way to do it right would be to make it socially unacceptable to bareback, like they have done with smoking and should do with obesity.

In the meantime, maybe I should pose shirtless to let these people see lipo "in the flesh," including the crix belly and hump.

HUGS,

Mark
"May your life preach more loudly than your lips."
~ William Ellery Channing (Unitarian Minister)

Offline allopathicholistic

  • Member
  • Posts: 3,258
Re: negative and not-so-negative friends
« Reply #19 on: August 03, 2008, 08:49:11 AM »
I would tell them :
- I hope you have a lot of extra money because it costs thousands a year even with insurance. Oh, and don't even think about becoming self-employed because you can't get insurance on your own.

:) See, I would definitely want to focus on this if someone told me I had to focus on one thing and one thing only as an activist (And no, I'm not an activist but perfectly willing to be one if shown the ropes). But how do you boil this down into 5 words or less? (for USA residents obviously)  ???  :-\   ???  :-\   ???  :-\  I've been racking my brain for months and still haven't come up with anything.  :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ If anyone has any suggestions please PM me or post here. Thanks. (Also, how do you tie in "Yeah you can qualify for government programs for meds but you have to constantly show proof that you're financially stressed."? Again, in as few words as possible. (because people have bloody short attention spans))
« Last Edit: August 04, 2008, 06:07:07 AM by allopathicholistic »

Offline planonstaying

  • Member
  • Posts: 169
  • Hiv is the FOX,tcells the rabbit, CALL the HOUNDS!
Re: negative and not-so-negative friends
« Reply #20 on: August 03, 2008, 09:42:56 AM »
 
"2006:      nearly one third had <200 cells per mm3, and approximately half had <350 cells per mm3 (DHEC, unpublished data, 2006). These data also suggest a high prevalence and long duration of undiagnosed HIV infections in South Carolina"
 Thats's a hell of a lot of people having a hell of a lot of sex telling people they were negative for a hell of a long time before finding out they were wrong. Maybe some PSAs stressing half the people with HIV  don't know it and will insist they are safe to have unprotected sex with the same as the person they were infected by. 

I got it from someone negative. Yeah I was an ass,  it's water over the dam but, it's the truth and true for a LOT on these boards infected after 1986. It's not like it hasn't been common knowledge the last 20 year's condoms protect against infection. People sometimes suck at weighing future consequences.  I knew better.   I know better than to eat FF too. MEDS are great but HIV is a terminal illness w/o a cure.  Treatment is more effective it isn't a cure or a guarantee. It's ignorance to believe otherwise. People die from HIV or HIV related consequences every hour. 14,627 people died in the US from HIV in 2006...estimate by the current govt. How many more died of liver failure or heart disease and weren't in the official count.  I may not die from HIV but who is telling the denial loving Masses about the ones who do?  I was ignorant it took getting infected to change that. I don't know if knowledge would of effected the bad choices I made but at the least they would of been better informed bad choices.  Society is in denial about the seriousness of HIV. Anyone who thinks a pill guarantees it wont kill them is part of the problem whether they be poz or neg. I dont walk around waiting to die nor do I walk around thinking Atripla is the new Lipitor.  When was the last time POZ did a series on the 14000 people who  are going to die from HIV this year? A positive attitude is great but maybe some reminders that HIV is a fatal disease might Be a needed shock to the system.  I  see ads saying get tested maybe some pics of dieing people in developed countries might put the issue in the proper light rather than "get tested".  The ads I see  are innocuous and don't convey how serious HIV is. I walk around smiling all day and am pretty damn happy but I have an uncurable disease none the less.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2008, 09:45:25 AM by planonstaying »
If someone tells you  potential consequences of a behavior  it  doesn't  mean they jude you or mit    they may just give a shit about you

Offline Ann

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • Posts: 28,140
  • It just is, OK?
    • Num is sum qui mentiar tibi?
Re: negative and not-so-negative friends
« Reply #21 on: August 03, 2008, 09:58:11 AM »
I  see ads saying get tested maybe some pics of dieing people in developed countries might put the issue in the proper light rather than "get tested". 

More to the point, maybe some pictures of people dieing in DEVELOPED countries, say like the US? The emphasis on Third World countries is part of the reason why people in developed countries think it's nothing to do with them and they don't need to test.

Maybe local ads (eg. on buses... the outside of buses) giving one or two stats - "X amount of new infections in this area in 2006. X amount of deaths in this area in 2006 due to late diagnosis - Get tested before it's too late!"

I really do think at least part of the way forward in prevention is to inform people what is happening in their own back yard. An increase of diagnoses in Botswana or even San Fransisco means next to nothing to someone in Boise, Idaho.

Ann
« Last Edit: August 03, 2008, 10:01:01 AM by Ann »
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline bmancanfly

  • Member
  • Posts: 607
  • Medicare For All !
Re: negative and not-so-negative friends
« Reply #22 on: August 03, 2008, 10:38:41 AM »
Well, here is your safe sex ad campaign slogan for all the neggies who think that they are being safe only having sex with other neggies.  It's not five words but close.


"I got it from someone negative"  *



*
(at least that's what he told me)
"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt."

 Bertrand Russell

Online GSOgymrat

  • Member
  • Posts: 5,054
  • HIV+ since 1993. INTJ
Re: negative and not-so-negative friends
« Reply #23 on: August 03, 2008, 02:54:53 PM »
I'm no Darrin Stephens but how about something along these lines.


Offline bmancanfly

  • Member
  • Posts: 607
  • Medicare For All !
Re: negative and not-so-negative friends
« Reply #24 on: August 03, 2008, 09:03:02 PM »
GSO did you create that?  Or find it somewhere else.
"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt."

 Bertrand Russell

Online GSOgymrat

  • Member
  • Posts: 5,054
  • HIV+ since 1993. INTJ
Re: negative and not-so-negative friends
« Reply #25 on: August 03, 2008, 10:21:05 PM »
I got the picture off the internet and just typed the text. Apologies to whomever that dude is... just trying to convey an idea.

Offline smart_fun_guy

  • New Member
  • Posts: 2
    • My New-ish (Somewhat Neglected) Blog
Re: negative and not-so-negative friends
« Reply #26 on: August 04, 2008, 12:06:36 PM »
I'm horrified by how little funding the Bush administration has provided for real prevention efforts among HIV-negative men who have sex with men (MSM).  (While instead funding so-called "positive prevention" efforts, which essentially put all the responsibility on poz guys to protect negative guys from HIV, even though there is no evidence that guys who know their status are actually the problem.)  And now, with the new numbers indicating that new infections are higher than previously stated, administration officials are trying to say that prevention efforts just don't work.  That's bull!

I agree that new prevention outreach efforts are needed, especially when I encounter appalling ignorance among so many young HIV-negative gay men today.  Most of all, I think any effective prevention efforts need to stimulate conversation that raises consciousness.  I remember in the early 1990s attending all kinds of workshops designed to get guys talking about this stuff -- I'm not aware of anything like that happening for a long time, which is undoubtedly the result of the lack of funding for it.

To stimulate conversation, I like to say (as I do in my online profiles) "Trust me -- you do NOT want this virus!"  My hope is that guys will ask "Why not?", so I can go into the list of consequences -- financial, emotional, social, physical, etc. -- that we are all so aware of.

I think scare tactics can have limited value if they just turn guys off or exacerbate their already irrational reactions to the risk of HIV infection.  So, trying to scare them into being more careful runs the risk of heightening not only their denial but also the taboo nature of unprotected sex, which only makes it more appealing to many guys. 

It's a fine line, but I think "He said he was negative...." is pretty effective because it opens up the topic of what it means when a guy says he is negative, how that is not useful info if you really want to protect yourself.  I also think Eric Leven's video is pretty effective in that it challenges the viewer to review his own behaviors.  I think the ultimate goal of any prevention campaign is to provide negative guys with info that will empower them to think clearly about how to protect themselves from HIV -- especially that it is WHAT you do, not WHO you do, as well as the reality that the biggest risk comes from guys who don't realize they're infected, especially because they've had a recent negative test result.

A friend brought me into this thread, which -- after living 20 years with HIV, many of them doing AIDS work professionally -- hardly feels like my battle today, but maybe that's just because I'm weary from feeling like I've been beating my head against a Great Wall of ignorance.  I think David Sedaris put it pretty well:  "I don't know how people get so stupid, but there's a whole country of them outside my door."  There is no shortage of info out there (especially online) that is just as available to every negative guy as it is to us.  People may still choose to make poor decisions.  But I think the central problem is that good information is not getting out to most young guys; nor are there places for them to process the info, ask questions, develop strategies for protecting themselves, and reinforce their resolve to do so.

But ultimately, I guess that those of us who are living with this virus have a certain responsibility to keep trying to get the word out that -- even with the meds available -- YOU DO NOT WANT THIS VIRUS!
OLD-SCHOOL LIVING WITH HIV:
Came out in 1979
First genital herpes outbreak in 1979
Hepatitis A in 1981, Hepatitis B in 1982
Probable serconversion illness summer of 1984
Started using condoms in 1985
Tested HIV-positive during first test in September 1989
AZT 1990-95
AZT, DDI, Crixivan 1995-96
Off meds 1996-98
First herpes zostor outbreak in late 1990s
Daily Acyclovir (herpes prophylaxis) since late 1990s
Zerit, Ziagen, Sustiva 1998 - stopped due to medication-induced hepatitis
AIDS diagnosis 1999
Long-term disability in 2000
Cryptosporidiosis 2000-2001 culminating in my only hospitalization
Kaletra, Epivir, Videx 2001-2007
Kaletra & Truvada 2007- present
Undetectable viral load since 2002
T-cells consistently 300-400
STILL CRAZY AFTER ALL THESE YEARS!

Offline allopathicholistic

  • Member
  • Posts: 3,258
Re: negative and not-so-negative friends
« Reply #27 on: August 04, 2008, 12:41:43 PM »
for americans, i present...

« Last Edit: August 05, 2008, 08:45:38 AM by allopathicholistic »

Offline planonstaying

  • Member
  • Posts: 169
  • Hiv is the FOX,tcells the rabbit, CALL the HOUNDS!
Re: negative and not-so-negative friends
« Reply #28 on: August 04, 2008, 04:38:30 PM »
I  see ads saying get tested maybe some pics of dieing people in developed countries might put the issue in the proper light rather than "get tested". 

More to the point, maybe some pictures of people dieing in DEVELOPED countries, say like the US? The emphasis on Third World countries is part of the reason why people in developed countries think it's nothing to do with them and they don't need to test.

Maybe local ads (eg. on buses... the outside of buses) giving one or two stats - "X amount of new infections in this area in 2006. X amount of deaths in this area in 2006 due to late diagnosis - Get tested before it's too late!"

I really do think at least part of the way forward in prevention is to inform people what is happening in their own back yard. An increase of diagnoses in Botswana or even San Fransisco means next to nothing to someone in Boise, Idaho.

Ann

That was precisely my point. Even today I read an article announcing the adjustment  that also said HIV is a chronic condition with meds. How is one  American dieing every 35 minutes after a long and debilitating illness  a chronic illness.    Who announced it was chronic now GWB or MercK? Calling it chronic might  make the general population sleep easier but,  it's now OUT in the general population. Hetero cases used to be   a tiny percentage. What are they now 30 plus  percent? By downplaying the seriousness of it  the epidemic gains a second wind. I think it is imperative  that  the word CHRONIC be dropped. Saying lives have been extended is true   and  the period someone has relative good health is true. A disease that's treatment or the disease itself will  eventually kill someone unless thay get hit by a bus or another fatal illness is not a chronic condition.

 Fatal: causing or capable of causing death; mortal; deadly

 Chronic: having long had a disease, habit, weakness

 HIV is capable of causing  death. Calling it chronic alone softens   the description in a way that is detrimental to society   
If someone tells you  potential consequences of a behavior  it  doesn't  mean they jude you or mit    they may just give a shit about you

Offline Ann

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • Posts: 28,140
  • It just is, OK?
    • Num is sum qui mentiar tibi?
Re: negative and not-so-negative friends
« Reply #29 on: August 04, 2008, 07:10:42 PM »
~bangs head on desk~

Planonstaying, I thought you said undeveloped countries. Yes, I know, I even quoted you.

~bangs head on desk~

Maybe that will help get my brain kick-started.

Ann
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline mjmel

  • Member
  • Posts: 2,069
Re: negative and not-so-negative friends
« Reply #30 on: August 04, 2008, 08:16:26 PM »
...

I think scare tactics can have limited value if they just turn guys off or exacerbate their already irrational reactions to the risk of HIV infection.  So, trying to scare them into being more careful runs the risk of heightening not only their denial but also the taboo nature of unprotected sex, which only makes it more appealing to many guys. 

...

I think these two sentences captures an attitude that many gay males harbor. Accordingly, I do subscribe to sentiments of Mr. Kramer.
I don't like it but yet I do believe there is a dangerous degree of irresponsibility out there. I would like to know if anyone here believes that the younger generation of gays have no knowledge about the wards upon wards of AIDS victims who suffered, then died so horribly -- in the earlier days of this pandemic?

Mike

Offline Longislander

  • Member
  • Posts: 2,486
Re: negative and not-so-negative friends
« Reply #31 on: August 04, 2008, 09:10:41 PM »
As I was reading this I just had a thought-

If the right information about HIV/AIDS was put in an easy to read format, and we got every gay/str8 dating/sex site to post it upon everyone's next login to their site, where they had to scroll down and click the box that said they read it ( and possibly provide links to get more info), similar to the sites where you have to click that you agree to the company's policy--maybe a few people will learn something.
Certainly not EVERY time, but the next time they log in. Like one big swift campaign.

I'm not naive enough to think that everyone will read it ALL, but perhaps it would make them think a little.

Just a thought~
infected 10/05 diagnosed 12-05
2/06   379/57000                    6/07 372/30500 25%   4/09 640/U/32% 
5/06   ?? /37000                     8/07 491/55000/24%    9/09 913/U/39%
8/06   349/9500 25%              11/07 515/68000/24     2/10 845/U/38%
9/06   507/16,000 30% !          2/08  516/116k/22%    7/10 906/80/39%
12/06 398/29000 26%             Start Atripla 3/08
3/07   402/80,000 29%            4/08  485/undet!/27
4/07   507/35,000 25%            7/08 625/UD/34%
                                                 11/08 684/U/36%

Offline AlanBama

  • Member
  • Posts: 3,647
  • Alabama: the 'other' 3rd World Country!
Re: negative and not-so-negative friends
« Reply #32 on: August 04, 2008, 10:16:29 PM »
LOL @ Ann       stop banging your head honey, even moderators are allowed a "mis-read" now and then...


sorry for the temporary hijack...

hugs,
Alan
"Remember my sentimental friend that a heart is not judged by how much you love, but by how much you are loved by others." - The Wizard of Oz

Offline allopathicholistic

  • Member
  • Posts: 3,258
Re: negative and not-so-negative friends
« Reply #33 on: August 06, 2008, 12:36:42 AM »
As I was reading this I just had a thought-

If the right information about HIV/AIDS was put in an easy to read format, and we got every gay/str8 dating/sex site to post it upon everyone's next login to their site, where they had to scroll down and click the box that said they read it ( and possibly provide links to get more info), similar to the sites where you have to click that you agree to the company's policy--maybe a few people will learn something.
Certainly not EVERY time, but the next time they log in. Like one big swift campaign.

I'm not naive enough to think that everyone will read it ALL, but perhaps it would make them think a little.

Just a thought~

they'd skip it before they could blink sweety. sorry. but perhaps if it had some visuals, then .... i dunno. visuals are easier to remember than blocks of text that people skip over. just my 2 cents

Offline Jeff G

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • Posts: 13,296
  • How am I doing Beren ?
Re: negative and not-so-negative friends
« Reply #34 on: August 06, 2008, 01:47:26 PM »
I once had a boyfriend who wasn't to concerned about safe sex .
I talked him into taking a weeks supply of my leftover HIV meds to try for one week .
He changed his attitude after about 3 days .

I suppose this tactic wouldn't be practical for the masses though .
« Last Edit: August 07, 2008, 12:41:22 PM by jg1962 »

Offline Saylor66

  • Member
  • Posts: 5
Re: negative and not-so-negative friends
« Reply #35 on: August 07, 2008, 12:38:35 PM »

It's ok to want the government to help us but we have shown to be very capable of spending millions of dollars in our self-indungent lifestyles so we could find the means to blast our landscape with ads/messages if we so wanted.

Show pictures of atrophied bodies, sunken faces, skinny, veiny legs, hep c treatment effects, resistant viruses, syphillis sores.  Link the pictures to drug use messages.  A truly 360 degree campaign with communal talent behind it.

Prevention works.  It worked for me for many years.  Until the messages died down under the loud screams of my own self-destructive impulses born out of lack of self-acceptance.

Offline plmgood

  • Member
  • Posts: 5
  • Resistant AIDS, 17 yrs plus! There is a God!
Re: negative and not-so-negative friends
« Reply #36 on: August 07, 2008, 05:46:07 PM »
We ALL need to accept responsibility for our actions.  But most do not because they were raised from "individualism,"  "ME, MYSELF, and I."   So there is a lot of arrogant neg's and poz' men out there who figure, oh well, either the drugs will take care of me or I've got it so who cares if I reinfect or get a super infection!!

You whinny babies who have hiv/aids need to grow up and accept some responsibility for your sexual escapes...."you play, you pay!"  The exception would be the hiv'ers who were infected by blood transfusions.

I am just as guilty as most of you, however, I have CHOSEN to STOP being arrogant and ALWAYS USE PROTECTION!  If a guy tells another guy or girl that, "it doesn't feel good with a rubber," and want to "bareback" you, tell 'em to F**K OFF!!   That arrogance can infect you or reinfect you with a super virus.

Obviously those people don't care about your life or theirs.  Society is lashing out at gays who continue to have bareback sex and now if you knowingly have sex with someone and you are poz/aids, and do not disclose before sex, you can be convicted of ATTEMPTED MURDER>

I would turn those people over to the health dept.   We keep whining about more funding to combat this deathly virus, yet you bozos continue to get infected.  To say you know nothing of HIV/AIDS is pure ignorance of life!!

So when your neg and not so neg friends complain, tell 'em to stop acting their shoe size and accept responsibility for themselves and if they want to "kill" themselves with barebacking, to stop taking others down with them.   "YOU PLAYED, NO YOU"VE PAID!!"

We need to rein in our "dicks" because the powers that be are sick and tired of pouring money into HIV/AIDS when we flagrantly continue to have bareback sex and continue on a path of STD's and high risk.

Cancer is the number 1 killer of Americans, HIV/AIDS is 3rd.    How long do you think the money is going to come in, if you all are arrogant enough to bareback.   The powers that be would rather throw their money behind Cancer treatments and cures.

I am a mad Taurus at the a-holes who think they can just do whatever they want unprotected.  I would turn you in to the health dept and the police.   Why not, you're attempting to murder somebody!!

Beware the mad Queen!!  GROW UP AND KEEP YOUR DICK PROTECTED!

Offline Jeff G

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • Posts: 13,296
  • How am I doing Beren ?
Re: negative and not-so-negative friends
« Reply #37 on: August 07, 2008, 05:53:19 PM »
plmgood , That's harsh words . I hope you can live up to your own hype .

Offline Ann

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • Posts: 28,140
  • It just is, OK?
    • Num is sum qui mentiar tibi?
Re: negative and not-so-negative friends
« Reply #38 on: August 07, 2008, 06:20:11 PM »
if you all are arrogant enough to bareback.

I'm a bit flummoxed as to why I continually see this kind of rhetoric aimed at gay men but never - or rarely at best - leveled at the straight population.

We straight folks think it's our birthright to have unprotected sex - why should gay men think any differently?

We're not going to get anywhere with the concept of condoms=prevention. As much as I hate to say it, as much as I advocate condom use... condoms suck. We're meant to go at it skin on skin.

I dunno. An I jaded? Have I spent too many years in the prevention trenches?

Or am I being realistic?

I wish I knew the way forward. I really do.

« Last Edit: August 07, 2008, 06:21:56 PM by Ann »
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline planonstaying

  • Member
  • Posts: 169
  • Hiv is the FOX,tcells the rabbit, CALL the HOUNDS!
Re: negative and not-so-negative friends
« Reply #39 on: August 08, 2008, 09:21:41 AM »
W

We need to rein in our "dicks" because the powers that be are sick and tired of pouring money into HIV/AIDS when we flagrantly continue to have bareback sex and continue on a path of STD's and high risk.

Cancer is the number 1 killer of Americans, HIV/AIDS is 3rd.    How long do you think the money is going to come in, if you all are arrogant enough to bareback.  The powers that be would rather throw their money behind Cancer treatments and cures.

I am a mad Taurus at the a-holes who think they can just do whatever they want unprotected.  I would turn you in to the health dept and the police.   Why not, you're attempting to murder somebody!!

Beware the mad Queen!!  GROW UP AND KEEP YOUR DICK PROTECTED!

Half the people with HIV don't know it. Why do you think  HIV infection rates are driven by those  who know their  status? Isn't the fact  half dint know  a reason to  drive public policy and spending toward prevention/testing?   I hear your frustration but  anger  isn't going to help anyone.
     Sex is like eatting. It is a vital part of living. Just as  their will always be a KFC or McDs  their  will always be those who want unprotected sex.  Heart disease and Cancer  are in part caused by eatting at those places  and  the high fat diet that leads too.   Some people will always  choose  instant gratification over long term  well being. The goal is  to make sure  they know EXACTLY what they are signing up for. In the case of HIV  I don't believe that is the case anymore. Reaching those who  have a misconception about what is safe,  the likelihood of hetero sexual transmission, a belief that treatment is a cure  and w/o  long term quality of life repercussions is what we can do as a society. I would much rather  make sure   everyone who makes the choice   to BB knows  just what they are risking. For some I think it will lead to a different choice. Too the rest  well, we can greet them here.   
If someone tells you  potential consequences of a behavior  it  doesn't  mean they jude you or mit    they may just give a shit about you

Offline planonstaying

  • Member
  • Posts: 169
  • Hiv is the FOX,tcells the rabbit, CALL the HOUNDS!
Re: negative and not-so-negative friends
« Reply #40 on: August 08, 2008, 09:25:20 AM »
My other public policy beef is the basing of AIDSS funding  on those   with an AIDS diagnosis rather than those in a geographic area who are HIV positive.  It's either  saving a penny to spend a pound later by failing to  encourage  policies that  keep HIVers from getting to 200 t-cells or it's pouring money into geographic zones  that have failed  policies rather than  forcing them to change policies.
If someone tells you  potential consequences of a behavior  it  doesn't  mean they jude you or mit    they may just give a shit about you

Offline allopathicholistic

  • Member
  • Posts: 3,258
Re: negative and not-so-negative friends
« Reply #41 on: August 09, 2008, 06:40:37 PM »
Show pictures of atrophied bodies, sunken faces, skinny, veiny legs, hep c treatment effects, resistant viruses, syphillis sores.  Link the pictures to drug use messages.  A truly 360 degree campaign with communal talent behind it.

Prevention works.  It worked for me for many years.  Until the messages died down under the loud screams of my own self-destructive impulses born out of lack of self-acceptance.

As one authority in my clinic said, and I paraphrase: "If young guys in Chelsea were to see more guys with KS, wjasting and other visible OIs walking around, that would have a big impact - but you don't really see that these days. Out of sight, out of mind."

(Chelsea is one of the major gay neighborhoods in Manhattan)

Offline BT65

  • Global Moderator
  • Member
  • Posts: 10,107
Re: negative and not-so-negative friends
« Reply #42 on: August 09, 2008, 07:59:07 PM »
We ALL need to accept responsibility for our actions.  But most do not because they were raised from "individualism,"  "ME, MYSELF, and I."   So there is a lot of arrogant neg's and poz' men out there who figure, oh well, either the drugs will take care of me or I've got it so who cares if I reinfect or get a super infection!!

You whinny babies who have hiv/aids need to grow up and accept some responsibility for your sexual escapes...."you play, you pay!"  The exception would be the hiv'ers who were infected by blood transfusions.

Reviewing your past posts, I have to ask this question:  Do you only post when you have a smart-assed comment to make?
I've never killed anyone, but I frequently get satisfaction reading the obituary notices.-Clarence Darrow

Offline newt

  • Member
  • Posts: 3,887
  • the one and original newt
Re: negative and not-so-negative friends
« Reply #43 on: August 12, 2008, 07:45:33 PM »
Thank you

This is very helpful. 

I will post my considered, perhaps long response in die course.  But mainly, what Cliff said.

my informal, non0scientific survey of 24 negative friends, mainly gay men, shows (1) they expect to be told (if someone is HIV+) (2) they don;t want to discuss HIV status when tricking out, or even on a 3rd date (men...). In response to the Q "Which rule of thumb would you prefer to be kept unbroken?" the response has been, for 23/24 people, number 2....

hmmm

- matt

Now playing: Gimme a Smile (Delorme v Dhama Burns version), Lost Tribe (on danny tenaglia global underground remixed)
"The object is to be a well patient, not a good patient"

Offline loop78

  • Member
  • Posts: 147
Re: negative and not-so-negative friends
« Reply #44 on: August 12, 2008, 08:25:16 PM »
my informal, non0scientific survey of 24 negative friends, mainly gay men, shows (1) they expect to be told (if someone is HIV+) (2) they don;t want to discuss HIV status when tricking out, or even on a 3rd date (men...). In response to the Q "Which rule of thumb would you prefer to be kept unbroken?" the response has been, for 23/24 people, number 2....

Couldn't have summarized what I've seen in amongst my friends better.

Offline newt

  • Member
  • Posts: 3,887
  • the one and original newt
Re: negative and not-so-negative friends
« Reply #45 on: August 20, 2008, 06:14:46 PM »
After much consideration:

1. Probably not a whole lot, ie what Cliff said

2. Get tested every 6 months, treatment will save your life if you take it in good time

This opens an interesting dynamic that the fear is not so much of testing positive as of treatment, so the big up treatment/play down major side effects dialogue (okay, monologue) comes into play. Since the men they's shagging who's HIV+ are fit, the horrid side effects thing don't work. testing = timely treatment may be selfish enough for people to get tested more than every few years.

3. Is a (casual) shag worth the risk? Is a good, thought-provoking question (to which there are various answers). I am off the hook on this  apparently  little cos my shag was in a LTR, which somehow makes it different (duh!?). But also provokes reflection in my experience.

Thank you all

- matt
"The object is to be a well patient, not a good patient"

 


Terms of Membership for these forums
 

© 2014 Smart + Strong. All Rights Reserved.   terms of use and your privacy
Smart + Strong® is a registered trademark of CDM Publishing, LLC.