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Author Topic: Where’s The Outrage?  (Read 4949 times)

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Offline Peter Staley

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Where’s The Outrage?
« on: July 15, 2008, 04:11:10 PM »
I've had some fun posts in my blog thus far, but that was just warm up.

Now it's time to tackle some bigger fish:

Where’s The Outrage?  HIV Rate Soars in Young Gay Men
http://blogs.poz.com/peter/archives/2008/07/wheres_the_outr.html

If you comment in this thread, I encourage you to cut & paste the same at the bottom of the blog page.

Thanks for reading!

Peter

Offline Jeffreyj

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  • Posts: 1,403
Re: Where’s The Outrage?
« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2008, 05:54:17 AM »
Peter,
Thanks for this information, sickening and scary as it is. Two years ago, A friend and I took it upon ourselves to talk to a group of gay teens, ages 13-21. Over 100 showed up, so there was an interest and a need for information. I told them that HIV was a disease that you do not want to have.
It seemed to go well, as several went to get test soon after.

Why am I having to this? I am not an educator, I am not affiliated with n ASO. I"m just a regular guy wanting to tell my story and help my community in a small way.

I think the problem is a serious lack of education. There is no leadership, no consistant education program. I mean can anyone name one program directed to teens?

I will pick up the phone and do my speech again. I urge anyone in here that is HIV+ to just find a group in your community and go tell them your story. You will be amazed at the amount of questions you will get asked. Believe me, kids are starved to learn more. There just seems to be a serious lack of a forum to give them the chance to learn, and get involved and ask questions. If we wait until the election, and Washing, hell!! Thousands more will get infected.

Until then, a grass roots  effort can help. I have seen the results. Every little bit helps. It just takes a little effort on our parts. You will be amazed how great the feeling is when you give back to your community. It is so amazing. You'll see. Trust me and give it a try.

Thanks Peter. This sad and tragic information will get me off my ass and start to work on the problem again. Just think how much good if just one person in each state, and each country, could donate one night to a group of teenagers, who are all starved for information in how to protect themselves.

Everyone wins. It beats bitching about life and doing nothing, after all!
Positive since 1985

Offline sharkdiver

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Re: Where’s The Outrage?
« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2008, 09:18:49 AM »
Yeah where is the outrage? Especially when people, who you would think would know better and be responsible for keeping their virus to themselves.

Here is an email from someone I asked why they were an active participant in the Bugshare website and how we could help him stop.

his response"
"A serious answer to your questions.

Well, its not like I did make any effort to not use the same alias. So, I'm not going to pretend or make excuses. Yes I am the same person.

Your question is loaded, so I don't know if anything I would respond with would make any sense. I also realize that we are really talking about something very controversial, and quite honestly, and I'm being honest, I would say that having sex with others who understand who you are and what you have and want to be what the same for themselves is part of a world of choice one makes.

I did not chase the bug myself. i was stealthed in a bath house. If you have been reading bareback exchange, I would expect that you would understand the term. I am a person who practiced safe sex inconsistently in the late 80's and 90's and eventually gave into my deep desires for adventurous sexual relations and barebacked.

While I got away with it for quite some time, eventually I picked up HIV when it rode in on another STD.

Initially, It rocked my world. But it also was quite erotic. At last I could be like other poz pigs as was and is today's terminology. But I still lived in a world of fear of HIV as I was conditioned to be afraid. Of course that fear did not inhibit me towards the end prior to my conversion. But that fear lives with you.

I did tell all the partners I barebacked with in the year before I was diagnosed and barebacked with that i had converted and it was in the last 12 months when I was considered highly infectious. Not a single person I had relations with converted. Which was a relief. The reaction was in fact understanding. Essentially, those who bareback understand that they are taking a risk. And this risk is something they are willing to take. They are not necessarily purposely seeking conversion, but for the most part continue to have unsafe sex. Some are practically militant about it. Even though I put a scare into them where they got tested, none changed their habits.

I tell any potential partner my status. I do not hide this. I do not pretend. I talk about risk. I talk about what it is like for me to be HIV Positive. Discussions are frank. But for many, deep down, the reality of sexuality is that in a world where gay men are seeking deep and meaningful connections, barebacking is deep and meaningful. And there are those who want to take poz loads and convert.

I have talked in depth with those who bareback but not bugchase and accept risk, and those who want to be with HIV men and become HIV positive. You really have to ask a bugchaser why they want it. And they will tell you any number of the following.

Ones who understand that their sexual practices make them a likely candidate for conversion and therefore want to "get it over with",

Ones who don't care because sex is more important than HIV, and many poz guys are totally hot and open open sexually. (BIO Hazzard Tat guys for example!)

The Thrill seekers, sorta nothing can be more extreem than poz conversion sex, and once embraced, is addicting, like skydiving or bungy jumping.

The true sluts/pigs, who want the mark of poz to show that they are "true" sluts wanting to fuck and be the ultimate pig.

The community seekers, ones who want to belong to a special group. The poz brotherhood. (Don't understimate this one, when all your friends are poz, what do you want to be?)

The gay satanists - worshiping satan and getting and gifting the bug go hand in hand.

The allergic to latex guys who just resign themselves to fucking bareback and then accepting what happens. (I can't have safe sex, so i'll take what comes with knowing I can't do without sex.)

Sex Slaves who want nothing more that to be completely dominated and submissive and HIV is often a part of that. (A poz slave is a true slave.)


And I would ask you to consider this offering - http://slought.org/content/11332/

Slought Foundation, a non-profit organization re-thinking contemporary art, is pleased to announce "On Bareback Subcultures and the Pornography of Risk." This event will take place on Friday, October 6, 2006 from 7:00-9:00pm at Slought Foundation. Theorist Tim Dean will present on his forthcoming book, Unlimited Intimacy. Unlimited Intimacy addresses the emergence of bareback subculture (defined by the principled abandonment of condoms amongst gay men), casting the phenomenon not as an incident of pathological behavior, but rather as an alternative approach to kinship that is opposed to normative heterosexual relationships. A public conversation will follow with Robert Caserio and Jean-Michel Rabaté, moderated and introduced by Heather Love.


Of course this can be considered absurd. Why would someone willingly accept barebacking with someone who is HIV positive when they themselves are not and contract this incurable condition, and why would someone who is HIV positive, knowing what it is to be poz, do such a thing to spread this condition.

I understand the implications of public safety and insurance costs that we all bear when someone converts. This aspect does concern me, because I know intellectually that its not cheap to be poz.

But consider this as well, and I'm not talking about the yahoo's on bareback exchange gloating and cheering on those who convert and breed successfully, that intimacy and deep emotional aspects of breeding are at the forefront are at the forefront of those I partner with. And many are poz already, and some are not.

As to your question regarding on how you can help me to stop. I would focus your attention to those who would want to convert or want to have poz sex. If you actually try to understand the problem through the types of people who bug chase and if you actually listened to the lecture on why men bareback and choose to do so, I'm sure you can see the issue.

If you would like to convince me that I'm doing wrong by doing harm, that is compelling. Feel free to do so. But my counter is this, life is full of diseases and uncertainty. One can catch the flu and die from someone who did not stay home when they were sick. One can self inflict diabetes on oneself through poor diet and exercise. One can eat a bad tomato, be shot walking home from work (just happened in philadelphia), be poisoned by an accident or deliberate act by a corporation. I think quite honestly that many gay men see their mortality through this lens. We all die. Are we going to live in fear?

I am not ashamed to be poz. Not anymore. I don't regret it. It was a direct result of choices I made. And honestly, sexuality often makes its own decisions. The belief that we can control our sexuality is akin to Christians talking about how sex is evil, bad and can be control by thinking good thoughts. Safe sex is fine. The message is correct. It prevents transmission. Why do you think the message is failing. Its not because of folks like me. Its because of all the reasons I sited above. Its about what soem of us want in this life when it comes to sexual relationships.

Men want to have uninhibited, intimate, and increasing erotic experiences. The whole culture of safe sex, an absolute necessity when HIV was a death sentence, has fueled the counter culture that ultimately rejects that position as contrarians and independent and politically incorrect folks will reject cycles of conformity that are proposed and pushed by elites. Ultimately creating an erotic subculture that take further identify by rejecting this type of sexual regulation, and take additional identity and thrills by being taboo.

I want you to know that I could easily have lied to you. I could pretend to repent. I could have simply just not replied.

I understand that you can out me on aidsmeds.com as well as well as other places. You can be outraged by my response. Please understand that I am not critical of you or your motives. Surely you have some curiosity to all this or why would you be reading posts on bugshare.net. If your looking for an answer to why guys would do such a thing, well, I think you know the answer. We all know the answer.

I am also quite aware that HIV is not fair. That there is a class division between those who have and continue to suffer extensively because of the lack of quality treatment over the years and the witness to the death of scores of men from AIDS. I have lost friends myself. There is nothing I can say about this horror that makes any sense. However, and I know guys hate me for saying this, HIV treatment is such that its tolerable and effective leading to something that can be managed. I know so many guys who are on meds that work, and tolerate their treatments. Is it desirable? Of course not. But its a fact today. Not everyone's perception has caught up to this fact and some never can because of what they have personally experienced and witnessed. If you are one of these folks, I'm sorry that you had to suffer so much, while us newbies are going to live in a different HIV era. Its not fair. But that is the truth.

Lastly, and I have to ask this. Why would you be reading posts on bugshare.net? What are you looking for? And Why?

Also, I'm curious that you out me on the site. I did see your comment when I posted information about @#%$. I knew then that you saw my stuff elsewhere. I considered it a warning. But in the end, I still put out the information I have learned so to try to assist others in learning about supplementation and it purposes. An uphill battle I must say.

So there is my very long reply. I took 1 hour and 30 minutes on this reply. I'm not going to mitigate your concerns for sure and that is not my point. I really assume that you are reading bugshare.net posts to learn about bugchasing and gifting and gift givers. I hope the reply helps you understand why this is happening in todays world, and why folks like me and others will seek out willing partners to share our semen. Not with the direct expectation of conversion per see, but, to totally be with another person in a most deep and personable act among consenting adults.

thank you for your time and thank you for your concerns for me and others."


What do you think, are you as outraged as I am?
« Last Edit: July 17, 2008, 03:45:24 PM by sharkdiver »

Offline Iggy

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Re: Where’s The Outrage?
« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2008, 09:37:47 AM »
]
Here is an email from someone I asked why they were an active participant in the Bugshare website and how we could help him stop.

The source of all of this alone makes me sort of shrug to a degree. 

I have had more sexual experiences that I care to admit and in the wildest of my days I far from just being in the vanilla circles, but in all my time and experiences, I never met anyone who was actually into bug chasing or gift giving for real.




Offline David_CA

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Re: Where’s The Outrage?
« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2008, 10:21:46 AM »
Yeah where is the outrage? Especially when people, who you would think would know better and be responsible for keeping their virus to themselves.

Here is an email from someone I asked why they were an active participant in the Bugshare website and how we could help him stop.

Well, honestly, I don't think outting somebody here is a good thing.  It's certainly not a good way to encourage honest communication in the future.  I understand what you're getting at, though.  I also understand (but don't necessarily agree with) some of what he's saying.  I know several HIV+ guys that say that, in the past, worried about becoming infected with HIV.  I think some were so intent on not becoming infected that they didn't fully enjoy sex.  Now that they're HIV+, they don't have to worry about becoming infected.  Of course, there are a host of new concerns, but those worries don't revolve around sex.  Basically, they've shifted their worries from sex to health.  I also think they didn't completely understand transmission, what's considered safe(r), etc.  I know I didn't.

Anyway, it's good to know what goes through people's minds regarding HIV if one wants to have effective prevention.  As to what Iggy says about not having met anybody who actually chased the bug or intentionally gave it, my experiences are the same.  I've met some guys who were almost indifferent, but none who were actually trying.  That's not to say they don't exist.  Like I always say, there are people who do all kind of body mods that defy my understanding!

David
Black Friday 03-03-2006
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Offline Lisa

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Re: Where’s The Outrage?
« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2008, 10:26:38 AM »
 Wow. Just wow.
I guess I've been way too sheltered in my "vanilla" world. I knew there were bug chasers, and people who were enamoured with "gifting", but I just didn't know there were people who actively found it their duty to inform others of the world of "supplements" to counteract the side effects of their gift.
Thank you for sharing that e-mail. It really made me think(after I began recovering from the shock.)
The real shame of it is, that no amount of community activism could, or would dissuade this mindset.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2008, 10:45:09 AM by Lisa »
No Fear  No Shame  No Stigma
Happiness is not getting what you want, but wanting what you have.

Offline GSOgymrat

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  • Posts: 5,002
  • HIV+ since 1993. INTJ
Re: Where’s The Outrage?
« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2008, 10:37:00 AM »
Here is an email from someone I asked why they were an active participant in the Bugshare website and how we could help him stop.

his response"
"A serious answer to your questions.

Yet another example of how people can rationalize anything.

Offline loop78

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  • Posts: 147
Re: Where’s The Outrage?
« Reply #7 on: July 17, 2008, 10:39:44 AM »
I was not gonna say anything, after all the counter arguments to the email sharkdiver posted are shared by most of us, and those who don't won't be convinced by them anyway, but still...

Quote
In a world where gay men are seeking deep and meaningful connections, barebacking is deep and meaningful.

Puh-leeze! Deep and meaningful?? With someone you just know his internet nickname? It's amazing what semen can add to an anonymous sex hook-up... Let's not mistake "intimacy" with "intensity". And there's nothing wrong with either of them, but let's call things by its name.

Quote
But my counter is this, life is full of diseases and uncertainty. One can catch the flu and die from someone who did not stay home when they were sick. One can self inflict diabetes on oneself through poor diet and exercise. One can eat a bad tomato, be shot walking home from work (just happened in philadelphia), be poisoned by an accident or deliberate act by a corporation. I think quite honestly that many gay men see their mortality through this lens. We all die. Are we going to live in fear?

And still we wait for the green light to cross the street and I've yet to see a contracultural subculture emerge to campaign against obeying traffic lights out of fear of being run down by a truck. Let's break free of the chains of fear ands abolish traffic lights and seat belts, tools of the heterosexist oppression against our freedom to die in a car crash! [ironic mode off]

Quote
And honestly, sexuality often makes its own decisions. The belief that we can control our sexuality is akin to Christians talking about how sex is evil, bad and can be control by thinking good thoughts.

Choices are always our personal responsibility. Sexuality has no will of its own, is part of us. It's up to us to decide upon our sexual needs. Most of the time there's nothing wrong with them and we decide to have fun, but there's no excuse to give in to an urge to rape, for example. Sexuality is no less of a moral act as any other field of human behavior.

I agree with GSOgymrat, people can rationalize anything! They can even create mysticism and a halo of romanticism around anything. :-(

Offline GSOgymrat

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Re: Where’s The Outrage?
« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2008, 10:56:55 AM »
I did not chase the bug myself. i was stealthed in a bath house. If you have been reading bareback exchange, I would expect that you would understand the term.

Not really wanting to log on to "bareback exchange" at work could someone please define "stealthed"?

Offline allopathicholistic

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Re: Where’s The Outrage?
« Reply #9 on: July 17, 2008, 11:59:05 AM »
Not really wanting to log on to "bareback exchange" at work could someone please define "stealthed"?

Yeah someone please define that. I have no clue what it means.

So I just read Sharkdiver's exchange with the guy from Bugshare and as far as the little groupings like the allergic-to-latex guys, the community-seekers, the true sluts, the thrill-seekers, etc., what about those who subscribe to blanche-don't-you-know-erect-penises-stay-harder-longer-without-condoms? ..... Because thats how it all started for me. Purely selfish --there was nothing 'community' about my ways. You could call that rationalization I guess but somewhere along the way my preferences changed to where I didn't want guys pulling out. Anyway I'm into the female condom now thanks to a friend who raved about it a few weeks ago. It's faarrrr from doing my part in the prevention equation as it's a drop in the bucket... but it's a start.

Offline Peter Staley

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    • AIDSmeds.com
Re: Where’s The Outrage?
« Reply #10 on: July 17, 2008, 12:23:25 PM »
Sharkdiver -- your post was flamebait, pure and simple.

We realize there is an active witchhunt going on right now involving various forum members on other websites, but it has no place here.  If this member wishes to discuss his sex life here, let HIM bring it up (he hasn't, as of yet).

Consider yourself warned.  (FYI -- I find his behaviour equally repugnant, but that's not the point).

Peter Staley
Founder
AIDSmeds.com


Offline redhotmuslbear

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Re: Where’s The Outrage?
« Reply #11 on: July 17, 2008, 12:33:49 PM »
..but in all my time and experiences, I never met anyone who was actually into bug chasing or gift giving for real.

Make no mistake:  bug chasing and bug sharing are real, if perhaps a bit exaggerated in scope.  I have found in being out about my status online that I get two or three requests a month to intentionally infect another man, though my precum and semen may not be the best carriers.  The requests are split about half and half between bottoms looking to be bugged up and tops organizing a scene with one or more bottoms--and about half of those scenes are intended to infect without the bottom's knowledge or consent.  I decline politely, instead of engaging in debate or lecture, as the ramblings of Sharkie's correspondent reflect a pervasive warped perception of Queermale intimacy and community that requires either intensive therapy or a collective community response to overcome.

Actually, Sharkie's correspondent brings together in one place a number of issues which I have had with the demise of healthful Queermale sexuality over the last decade...

The fetishized load.... Contrary to the urban myth, the lining of the rectum doesn't relay a feeling from a throbbing penis or an amorphous blob of less than a teaspoon on average landing.  Sure, we're "estranged" from our semen, but using that to justify high-risk behavior is about like a heterosexual male batterer saying he abuses his wife because he was never allowed to hit a girl.

Personally demeaning imagery.... I enjoy my alphabet soup of kinks regularly, but that doesn't make me a "pig."  Appropriating that word stirs no sense of pride or empowerment in me, not like taking back "Queer."  It makes more interesting conversation and cultural enlightenment with friends of African descent who chafe at "the N word" and "thug" or "gangsta" chic.

Intimacy and sex are interchangeable......  My husband, whom I originally met at a sex party, often describes this--and makes me blush--by stating "He's the man who taught me the difference between 'good sex' and 'making love'!"  We all know this distinction at least from the experience of feeling let down and empty after a very passionate one-timer, but too many of us --and this applies to men and women, Queers and non-Queers, alike-- keep going to the proverbial hardware store for milk.  More conversation in the community about this disconnect and more teaching about "connected sex" or "sacred sex" versus wonton getting-off are needed to fill the void, so to speak.
 
The pursuit of "freedom" without responsibility...... It's just another example of doing something because one can, not because one has a moral prerogative to do it.  People get to that place when they encounter a lack of moral and ethical leadership; and, while Queers and HIVers have made political and social gains, we have done so without authoritative voices regarding ethical conduct to admonish our people.  Vigilnte policing online or in the real world will not solve the problem, but constructing more fulfilling and healthful alternatives -- and building community consensus around them -- will.


<<putting the asbestos suit back in the basement.>>
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Offline redhotmuslbear

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Re: Where’s The Outrage?
« Reply #12 on: July 17, 2008, 12:39:20 PM »
stealthed.....Yeah someone please define that. I have no clue what it means.



I think you hit it later in your post.  It's a rationalization of the insertive partner always having full responsibility, yet not being truthful about HIV status.  With most HIV+ people not knowing their status, supposed neg-on-neg barebacking is a game of epidemiological "Russian roulette," as too many guys I know have found out.
"The real problem is not whether machines think but whether men do." - BF Skinner
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One copy of delta-32 for f*****d up CCR5 receptors, and an HLA B44+ allele for "CD8-mediated immunity"... beteer than winning Powerball, almost!

Offline Nate

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Re: Where’s The Outrage?
« Reply #13 on: May 10, 2011, 03:55:45 AM »
Maybe Im not following this correctly...

I was just at http://www.bugshare.net and there was nothing there but a comming soon page and a banner for http://www.hivgenericdrugs.com  and http://www.poppers.com.

Am I missing something?  ???

Is the addy above incorrect?
I take Candy from Strangers ;-p

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: Where’s The Outrage?
« Reply #14 on: May 10, 2011, 04:57:21 AM »
Thread necromancy is bad, m'kay?

MtD

Offline newt

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Re: Where’s The Outrage?
« Reply #15 on: May 10, 2011, 05:10:32 AM »
I find all the bug and poppers stuff unhelpful. People can speculate on the minute details and marginal dynamics, but, in the case of this endemic, three things...

1. Show me some civil rights, respect and a roadmap from 14 to 34 for gay men.
2. If you shell out the money you get the results.
3. Truvada

- matt
"The object is to be a well patient, not a good patient"

Offline sharkdiver

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Re: Where’s The Outrage?
« Reply #16 on: May 10, 2011, 09:11:41 AM »
ZOMBIE thread.

(I still have that email though..disturbing as it may be)

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: Where’s The Outrage?
« Reply #17 on: May 10, 2011, 09:25:45 AM »
I find all the bug and poppers stuff unhelpful. People can speculate on the minute details and marginal dynamics, but, in the case of this endemic, three things...

1. Show me some civil rights, respect and a roadmap from 14 to 34 for gay men.
2. If you shell out the money you get the results.
3. Truvada

- matt


No disrespect Noot but what the fuck are "marginal dynamics"?

Moreover "Civil rights, respect and a road map"?

You're a clever chap, no doubt, but sometimes it's like you've been to one too many conferences.

MtD

Offline denb45

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Re: Where’s The Outrage?
« Reply #18 on: May 10, 2011, 10:03:27 AM »
Hey Peter, nice to see you around here again  ;) Somehow, I think that most young men are in total & complete denial, are they just don't care anymore, outrage, I don't think most of them even know what that means  ::)
« Last Edit: May 10, 2011, 10:06:13 AM by denb45 »
"it's so nice to be insane, cause no-one ask you to explain" Helen Reddy cc 1974

Offline Hellraiser

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Re: Where’s The Outrage?
« Reply #19 on: May 10, 2011, 10:33:17 AM »
Hey Peter, nice to see you around here again  ;) Somehow, I think that most young men are in total & complete denial, are they just don't care anymore, outrage, I don't think most of them even know what that means  ::)

This isn't a new post by Peter it's from 2008

Offline denb45

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  • "1987 Classic Old School POZ+"
Re: Where’s The Outrage?
« Reply #20 on: May 10, 2011, 12:33:41 PM »
This isn't a new post by Peter it's from 2008

ZOMBIE POST  :D
"it's so nice to be insane, cause no-one ask you to explain" Helen Reddy cc 1974

 


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