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Author Topic: Liver Cleansing and Chinese Medicine  (Read 19389 times)

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Offline beaubrent

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  • Posts: 44
Liver Cleansing and Chinese Medicine
« on: February 22, 2008, 10:22:23 AM »

I have been reading a lot about different ways to cleanse my liver from long-term toxicity and have come across Chinese medicine as a possible route. For thousands of years, they have used herbs to cleanse the liver from things like jaundice to toxicity. This could include taking dandelion, Chinese Gentian, or other such types of items to cleanse the liver. When used in combination with 1-2 days fasts with juice, it is said to be very effective in flushing out the system.

Does anyone have any ideas on safe, natural ways to cleanse the liver like this? I'd like to do something to combat the long term effects of meds.
When I found out I had HIV,

I woke up and started living.

Offline ubotts

  • Member
  • Posts: 347
Re: Liver Cleansing and Chinese Medicine
« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2008, 10:30:58 AM »
HI There,
I did go a chinese dr for alternative ways to help my liver..
His name is Dr. Zhang....This is his web site, if your interested
www.Dr-Zhang.com  I still beleive its the same..

I left NYC and now live in NJ...so I havent been to my Herbal dr in 5 yrs..

When I did go for treatment, I was on garlic pills, and heppa B..which then heled my
liver numbers stay low...

So maybe it will work for you....I am not sure about flushing anything out..Havent heard of that yet...but good luck..
Live Love Laugh and dance like no ones watching.
Laughter is the best medicine, so try to have a laugh everyday..Even if your not feeling your best, think about something that was funny at one time in your life and work with it..   :o)

Offline komnaes

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Re: Liver Cleansing and Chinese Medicine
« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2008, 10:43:12 AM »
Hey Beaubrent,

The rule about using Chinese medicine is to not do it yourself, or just buy some off-the-shelf products. It's especially important if you're already on meds. Even when certain herbs are known to have certain cleansing properties, you need to know how to prepare them in the proper ways. The recommendation therefore is to find a qualified doctor, and if they come recommended it's even better (so check out Ubotts' if Dr. Zhang is nearby).

Best of luck and welcome to the forums... ;D

Shaun

PS - just want to also add that I am in Hongkong. We have lots of qualified Chinese Medicine doctors/herbalists and I am seeing one regularly for my secondary needs (back pain, etc).
Aug 07 Diagnosed
Oct 07 CD4=446(19%) Feb 08 CD4=421(19%)
Jun 08 CD4=325(22%) Jul 08 CD4=301(18%)
Sep 08 CD4=257/VL=75,000 Oct 08 CD4=347(16%)
Dec 08 CD4=270(16%)
Jan 09 CD4=246(13%)/VL=10,000
Feb 09 CD4=233(15%)/VL=13,000
Started meds Sustiva/Epzicom
May 09 CD4=333(24%)/VL=650
Aug 09 CD4=346(24%)/VL=UD
Nov 09 CD4=437(26%)/VL=UD
Feb 10 CD4=471(31%)/VL=UD
June 10 CD4=517 (28%)/VL=UD
Sept 10 CD4=687 (31%)/VL=UD
Jan 11 CD4=557 (30%)/VL=UD
April 11 CD4=569 (32%)/VL=UD
Switched to Epizcom, Reyataz and Norvir
(Interrupted for 2 months with only Epizcom & Reyataz)
July 11 CD=520 (28%)/VL=UD
Oct 11 CD=771 (31%)/VL=UD(<30)
April 12 CD=609 (28%)/VL=UD(<20)
Aug 12 CD=657 (29%)/VL=UD(<20)
Dec 12 CD=532 (31%)/VL=UD(<20)
May 13 CD=567 (31%)/VL=UD(<20)
Jan 14 CD=521 (21%)/VL=UD(<50)

Offline bear60

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Re: Liver Cleansing and Chinese Medicine
« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2008, 11:59:57 AM »
Honestly, my acupuncture treatment for cleansing the liver has worked wonders.  It involves no potions or herbs.
I recieve acupuncture treatments about once a month.
Poz Bear Type in Philadelphia

Offline water duck

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Re: Liver Cleansing and Chinese Medicine
« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2008, 03:39:06 PM »
beau, if you are on meds, please DO NOT mix the TWO

Eastern and Western medicine do not mix well !!

Acupuncture does not fall into this category as it seek to balance the Yin and Yang energies within the body. Like bear says : it involves no potions or herbs.
Liking the saying go: all ills go into the body through the mouth.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2008, 04:09:06 PM by water duck »

Offline bear60

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Re: Liver Cleansing and Chinese Medicine
« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2008, 04:01:03 PM »
Water duck makes a good point.
Acupuncture is aimed at balancing your energies.  After treatment the instructions are to drink plenty of water.  Thats all....water.
Poz Bear Type in Philadelphia

Offline komnaes

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Re: Liver Cleansing and Chinese Medicine
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2008, 08:29:05 PM »
beau, if you are on meds, please DO NOT mix the TWO

Hmmmm.. just for the sake of discussion, I would not go as far as saying that the two don't mix completely. We know that some herbs do interact with some meds, but many don't and AIDS has existed long enough that some Chinese medicine doctors have learned to find ways to deal effectively with side effects that won't affect ongoing treatments.

I have decided to come out to my Chinese doctor after he sort of rightly diagnosed me - as HIV don't actually "exist" in their methodology - but in my first appointment after getting that positive result (like 2 weeks after all serious symptoms had subsided), he as usual checked my pulses and staff and at the end looked at me rather worryingly and told me that some "char" energy (really bad energy, which in their lexicon usually refers to infectious diseases) has entered my body and my immune system was affected. It was really spooky as I didn't expect him to be good enough to notice.

My point is - one needs to find the right qualified doctor. As of now I am letting this "family" Chinese doctor to focus on just boosting my health while I am not on meds. In our last discussion I have also asked him to find a colleague that has experiences with HIV patients, and he's agreed to do so. We will see..
Aug 07 Diagnosed
Oct 07 CD4=446(19%) Feb 08 CD4=421(19%)
Jun 08 CD4=325(22%) Jul 08 CD4=301(18%)
Sep 08 CD4=257/VL=75,000 Oct 08 CD4=347(16%)
Dec 08 CD4=270(16%)
Jan 09 CD4=246(13%)/VL=10,000
Feb 09 CD4=233(15%)/VL=13,000
Started meds Sustiva/Epzicom
May 09 CD4=333(24%)/VL=650
Aug 09 CD4=346(24%)/VL=UD
Nov 09 CD4=437(26%)/VL=UD
Feb 10 CD4=471(31%)/VL=UD
June 10 CD4=517 (28%)/VL=UD
Sept 10 CD4=687 (31%)/VL=UD
Jan 11 CD4=557 (30%)/VL=UD
April 11 CD4=569 (32%)/VL=UD
Switched to Epizcom, Reyataz and Norvir
(Interrupted for 2 months with only Epizcom & Reyataz)
July 11 CD=520 (28%)/VL=UD
Oct 11 CD=771 (31%)/VL=UD(<30)
April 12 CD=609 (28%)/VL=UD(<20)
Aug 12 CD=657 (29%)/VL=UD(<20)
Dec 12 CD=532 (31%)/VL=UD(<20)
May 13 CD=567 (31%)/VL=UD(<20)
Jan 14 CD=521 (21%)/VL=UD(<50)

Offline water duck

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Re: Liver Cleansing and Chinese Medicine
« Reply #7 on: February 23, 2008, 04:46:40 AM »
i did not failed to note

{{ while I am not on meds }}

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: Liver Cleansing and Chinese Medicine
« Reply #8 on: February 23, 2008, 06:24:08 AM »
I just thought it worth noting that the liver cannot be "cleansed".

MtD

Offline komnaes

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Re: Liver Cleansing and Chinese Medicine
« Reply #9 on: February 23, 2008, 08:04:26 AM »
True enough Matty,.. I suppose it's better to use the word "detox".
Aug 07 Diagnosed
Oct 07 CD4=446(19%) Feb 08 CD4=421(19%)
Jun 08 CD4=325(22%) Jul 08 CD4=301(18%)
Sep 08 CD4=257/VL=75,000 Oct 08 CD4=347(16%)
Dec 08 CD4=270(16%)
Jan 09 CD4=246(13%)/VL=10,000
Feb 09 CD4=233(15%)/VL=13,000
Started meds Sustiva/Epzicom
May 09 CD4=333(24%)/VL=650
Aug 09 CD4=346(24%)/VL=UD
Nov 09 CD4=437(26%)/VL=UD
Feb 10 CD4=471(31%)/VL=UD
June 10 CD4=517 (28%)/VL=UD
Sept 10 CD4=687 (31%)/VL=UD
Jan 11 CD4=557 (30%)/VL=UD
April 11 CD4=569 (32%)/VL=UD
Switched to Epizcom, Reyataz and Norvir
(Interrupted for 2 months with only Epizcom & Reyataz)
July 11 CD=520 (28%)/VL=UD
Oct 11 CD=771 (31%)/VL=UD(<30)
April 12 CD=609 (28%)/VL=UD(<20)
Aug 12 CD=657 (29%)/VL=UD(<20)
Dec 12 CD=532 (31%)/VL=UD(<20)
May 13 CD=567 (31%)/VL=UD(<20)
Jan 14 CD=521 (21%)/VL=UD(<50)

Offline bear60

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Re: Liver Cleansing and Chinese Medicine
« Reply #10 on: February 23, 2008, 10:49:37 AM »
"I just thought it worth noting that the liver cannot be "cleansed"."

MtD
..........................
I think that is correct. "Cleasned" is not the right term.
 And I should have used the term "detoxified".  Its difficult knowing the correct terminology for what the alternative therapies claim to do.
Poz Bear Type in Philadelphia

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: Liver Cleansing and Chinese Medicine
« Reply #11 on: February 23, 2008, 07:32:51 PM »
Even "detoxified" is problematic.

Detoxified of what and how?

The term is really one of those trendy nonsense words that's chucked about with careless disregard these days. It's seems to be a good way to separate the unsuspecting from their money.

One of the crucial functions of the liver is removing harmful substances from our bodies so the idea that it can in some way be "detoxified" is actually pretty silly. If anything, the liver "detoxifies" itself with little regard to what potions and products we consume and it does so according to it's own rules.

MtD

Offline SouthSam7

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  • Posts: 428
Re: Liver Cleansing and Chinese Medicine
« Reply #12 on: February 24, 2008, 11:47:32 AM »
The liver will regenerate itself if the damaging cause is removed (alcohol, change hiv meds, change statin, etc.).

"...The human liver is one of the few organs in the body that can regenerate from as little as 25 percent of its tissue," says Seth Karp, assistant professor of surgery at Harvard Medical School, Boston, and main author of the study. "It is not known how the liver does it, but our results provide some details of what makes the liver so unique...." - Mayo Clinic Journal, April 12, 2007.

Eventually, though, if you don't stop the cause of the liver damage, the liver will become diseased.  Ask Larry Hagman.


Offline bear60

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Re: Liver Cleansing and Chinese Medicine
« Reply #13 on: February 24, 2008, 02:07:29 PM »
When trying to understand acupuncture, specifically, it is necessary to understand that there is a set of vocabulary words used by practitioners of this art.  It may not be western medicine's vocabulary.  It has its own meanings.
If one is to understand Eastern (Asian) medicine, it is often necessary to try to understand a new vocabulary.
"Detoxification of the liver" is a concept in acupuncture:
"Detox Special Extended!
Why Detox?
Your liver has thousands of enzymes designed to clear various toxins from your body and your liver and kidney both work round the clock clearing toxins such as pesticides, chemicals, medications, heavy metals, and even excess hormones from your system. Sometimes the toxic burden is too great for these organs to handle and some toxic residue remains trapped in your body, stored in the kidneys, liver, brain, muscles, etc. These toxins can be responsible for various symptoms including fatigue, muscle pain, irritability, cognitive difficulties, premenstrual syndrome, skin disorders and more. The purpose of detoxification is to enhance the detoxification function of the liver and the kidneys, reducing the toxic burden on these organs and therefore the benefits of detoxification can range from clearer skin, improved mental clarity, improved thyroid function, increased energy, improved hormonal balance, and improved mental function. "
http://www.doctorbuxton.com/svc_detoxspecial.php4

It is not necessary to dismiss with a single stroke , all the accomplishments of acupuncture.
Poz Bear Type in Philadelphia

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: Liver Cleansing and Chinese Medicine
« Reply #14 on: February 24, 2008, 03:08:12 PM »
Ah yes, Dr Cynthia Buxton - graduate of Bastyr University. Buxton styles herself as a "naturopathic physician" which is somewhat misleading as she is not a practitioner of medicine. That's not to say that she isn't a skilled acupuncturist but she's not a doctor, she's a naturopath and that particular branch of fringe healthcare has something of a fraught history.

To add to Sam's comments above, the best thing a person can do to help his or her liver is to leave it alone. Maintain a sensible diet (with a low to moderate fat intake), don't drink alcohol to excess, be vaccinated against hepatitis A & B and so on. The liver is entirely equipped to take care of itself and doesn't need the kind of assistance offered by Dr Buxton and her ilk.

That's not to say that there isn't a role for acupuncture. There can be no doubt acupuncture has been demonstrated to relieve pain and induce anaethesia, amongst other things, and can form a useful adjunct for some people in addition to other treatments.

MtD

Offline bear60

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  • Posts: 4,104
Re: Liver Cleansing and Chinese Medicine
« Reply #15 on: February 24, 2008, 03:30:40 PM »
Right.
Well, Its ok to dismiss Dr Buxton..... of whom I have no knowledge. I was only using what she SAID as an example of acupuncture's claims. She may be a quack, I dont know.
What I do know is that there is a growing acceptance of acupuncture in the realms of western medicine.  My acupuncturist, for example, is talking about putting acupuncturists on call for trauma centers and emergency rooms so that acupuncture can be offered to patients being admitted.
It seems that an increasing number of people would request this form of treatment.
Really, I am not interested in promoting quackery. I feel I have benefitted from acupuncture.  It is not well understood or integrated into our western medicine. Perhaps one day.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2008, 03:38:42 PM by bear60 »
Poz Bear Type in Philadelphia

Offline SouthSam7

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Re: Liver Cleansing and Chinese Medicine
« Reply #16 on: February 24, 2008, 03:49:21 PM »
My psychiatrist friend just told me in passing last week that she gets acupuncture.  That blew me away.  She's the last person I would have thought would do that.  She has fibromyalgia or chronic-fatigue or something like that. 

Anything that doesn't do any harm and makes someone feel better is alright.  I love grapefruit juice but my doc says not with my meds so I don't drink it much anymore, if at all.

Offline bear60

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Re: Liver Cleansing and Chinese Medicine
« Reply #17 on: February 24, 2008, 03:57:26 PM »
Guy
Well, see..... thats part of the problem.  Anecdotal evidence is not acceptable as proof of anything. 
So here's one of mine.
I was working at a job a couple of years ago at which there were several building contractors. One of whom told me that he had had severe back problems and pain and went to an acupuncturist who absolutely stopped the pain enough for him to go back to work.  I casually asked who was his acupuncturist.  It was the one I go to.
Poz Bear Type in Philadelphia

Offline BT65

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Re: Liver Cleansing and Chinese Medicine
« Reply #18 on: February 25, 2008, 09:51:53 AM »
When I was in treatment for drug abuse years ago, they used acupuncture as a way to relieve withdrawal symptoms, and to bring about relaxation.  I was skeptical at first, but must say it worked amazingly.  I felt 'high' for about two hours afterwards. 

I don't do anything special for the liver.  I figure, as the Damned One said, it can take care of itself (with proper diet etc.). 
I've never killed anyone, but I frequently get satisfaction reading the obituary notices.-Clarence Darrow

Offline Lorenzopier

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Re: Liver Cleansing and Chinese Medicine
« Reply #19 on: February 26, 2008, 05:29:19 AM »
Using  natural nutrients such as NAC,VITAMIN E & C,ZINC and a B-50 complex while making sure to consume adequate amounts of water can possibly provide benefits to the liver.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2008, 06:59:26 AM by Lorenzopier »

Offline Ann

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  • It just is, OK?
    • Num is sum qui mentiar tibi?
Re: Liver Cleansing and Chinese Medicine
« Reply #20 on: February 26, 2008, 05:53:43 AM »
Milk thistle should not be taken by people who are on antiretrovirals. It can interact adversely with all the PIs except for (possibly) Indinavir. It can also interact adversely with the NNRTIs.

Milk thistle should also not be taken by people with hepatitis C because it can cause you to have normal liver enzymes even though damage is being sustained to the liver. In other words, it can mask ongoing damage.

It's worth noting that Lorenzopier has been largely discredited on these forums - he's not really a person to take nutrition or supplement advice from. Check out his thread:

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=17101.0

Read the whole thing and decide for yourself whether or not this person's advice can be trusted.

Ann
Condoms are a girl's best friend

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"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline beaubrent

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Re: Liver Cleansing and Chinese Medicine
« Reply #21 on: February 26, 2008, 07:46:16 AM »
Wow! I never expected such a wide range of responses. Thank you!

My biggest concern with my liver isn't today or the next year. I'm trying to find out how to stave off the toxic effects of my meds over time. The very first side effect listed on both my meds is a high level of toxicity to my liver. While today I am 29 and healthy enough not to worry too much, I want to take on the healthy habits now to reduce problems with my liver in the future.

Having traveled to many places in the world, I've started to take the mindset that medicine (especially Western medicine) must be viewed in a wider spectrum of time and experience. Wellness and medicine in some form has been practiced for Millena, and while much of it really is rubbish, there are some things that I cannot so easily dismiss. If cultures like the Chinese, Indian, South American, and even some African tribes all have had longstanding type of medicine, finding what has worked in those cultures may be worth it if I want a wider view of wellness, if we are to progress in our own research.

Of course, right now the thought is purely philosophical. I want to expand my options, but I am not yet ready to risk interactions with my medications to find out. For the time, I'll limit myself to trying what people have already tried, but I think that study on interactions with herbal and natural remedies for folks with any chronic condition is long overdue.

When I found out I had HIV,

I woke up and started living.

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: Liver Cleansing and Chinese Medicine
« Reply #22 on: February 26, 2008, 08:00:28 AM »
Wow! I never expected such a wide range of responses. Thank you!

You're more than welcome, we're an eclectic lot.

My biggest concern with my liver isn't today or the next year. I'm trying to find out how to stave off the toxic effects of my meds over time.

Aren't we all?

The very first side effect listed on both my meds is a high level of toxicity to my liver. While today I am 29 and healthy enough not to worry too much, I want to take on the healthy habits now to reduce problems with my liver in the future.

So you're a piss-pot eh? Like a drink? I might be way off here but "liver toxicity" people either have a real problem like Hepatitis C or they drink too much. Occasionally both. You might like to fill in the blanks.

Having traveled to many places in the world, I've started to take the mindset that medicine (especially Western medicine) must be viewed in a wider spectrum of time and experience. Wellness and medicine in some form has been practiced for Millena, and while much of it really is rubbish, there are some things that I cannot so easily dismiss. If cultures like the Chinese, Indian, South American, and even some African tribes all have had longstanding type of medicine, finding what has worked in those cultures may be worth it if I want a wider view of wellness, if we are to progress in our own research.

Really? Which parts are rubbish and which parts can you dismiss? Enquiring minds have to know.

Of course, right now the thought is purely philosophical. I want to expand my options, but I am not yet ready to risk interactions with my medications to find out. For the time, I'll limit myself to trying what people have already tried, but I think that study on interactions with herbal and natural remedies for folks with any chronic condition is long overdue.

Well whatever. It's good to have you with us! :)

Be well,

MtD

Offline Dachshund

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Re: Liver Cleansing and Chinese Medicine
« Reply #23 on: February 26, 2008, 08:04:41 AM »

Of course, right now the thought is purely philosophical. I want to expand my options, but I am not yet ready to risk interactions with my medications to find out. For the time, I'll limit myself to trying what people have already tried, but I think that study on interactions with herbal and natural remedies for folks with any chronic condition is long overdue.



 I think the problem is that it is difficult to run tests on alternative treatments and have mathematical results as you can with modern medicine.

Offline bear60

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Re: Liver Cleansing and Chinese Medicine
« Reply #24 on: February 26, 2008, 01:10:38 PM »
This recently made a big splash in the news:


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3879447.stm

[attachment deleted by admin]
Poz Bear Type in Philadelphia

Offline aliveinla

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Re: Liver Cleansing and Chinese Medicine
« Reply #25 on: February 28, 2008, 01:38:21 AM »
I think the problem is that it is difficult to run tests on alternative treatments and have mathematical results as you can with modern medicine.

China is experimenting herb treatments and setting up a system to measure it's effect scientificly. I read this news in Chinese not sure whether there is English version--I surf Chinese websites at work so no one knows what I am doing. I heard even David Ho or some of his students participated. I used to question all Chinese medicine, thought that's all BS mostly cure nothing just to make someone feel good (some smell good too, so I use some as spice). Now I am infected, I am willing to try anything, and I do have those cups under the bed for 5 years never used should try them on tomorrow after meeting my new trick (don't want him scared by the "bruises")
4/24/07: Last tested Neg
1/22/08: First tested Poz
1/30/08: CD4 393; 28%; VL: 44k
3/18/08: CD4 218; 26%; VL: 222K
4/24/08: CD4 402; 26%; VL: lab forgot
7/22/08: CD4 405; 25%; VL: 6,780
10/15/08: CD4 340, 26%; VL: N/A
2/4/09: CD4 394, 26%; VL: N/A
Jun 09: CD4 300, 25%; VL: 4000
Oct 09: CD4 324, 23%, VL: 10K
11/22/09: started Atripla
11/20/11: CD4 405; VL: UD

Offline knowdifferent

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Re: Liver Cleansing and Chinese Medicine
« Reply #26 on: June 14, 2008, 12:27:38 PM »
I do a liver cleanse three times a year.  You can find it by doing a search for "Dr. Clark Liver Cleanse."  It really does mechanically flush out stones that are lodged in the billiary tubes.  If the billiary tubes are cleared and the bile from the liver flows freely, then the liver is able to more effectively do its job.  At least that's the idea behind it.  You have to drink some nasty stuff, but I've continued to do them because I feel so amazing after...

Offline Dachshund

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Re: Liver Cleansing and Chinese Medicine
« Reply #27 on: June 14, 2008, 03:17:36 PM »
I do a liver cleanse three times a year.  You can find it by doing a search for "Dr. Clark Liver Cleanse."  It really does mechanically flush out stones that are lodged in the billiary tubes.  If the billiary tubes are cleared and the bile from the liver flows freely, then the liver is able to more effectively do its job.  At least that's the idea behind it.  You have to drink some nasty stuff, but I've continued to do them because I feel so amazing after...

You know I believe this is the Dr. Clark that claims she can cure AIDS. It also lists grapefruit as an ingrediant which is a big no-no if taken with some AIDS meds. Again I caution people about following quackery without consulting their doctor.

Offline anniebc

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Re: Liver Cleansing and Chinese Medicine
« Reply #28 on: June 14, 2008, 06:32:03 PM »
If this is the DR. Clark you are talking about then I wouldn't be relying on any of her remedies...and I would listen to Dach's advise

Quote
I caution people about following quackery without consulting their doctor.

Hugs
Jan



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-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Never knock on deaths door..ring the bell and run..he really hates that.

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: Liver Cleansing and Chinese Medicine
« Reply #29 on: June 14, 2008, 09:18:17 PM »
Ugh. Hulda Clark.

There is some useful information regarding the odious Dr Clark in this thread.

MtD

Offline redhotmuslbear

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Re: Liver Cleansing and Chinese Medicine
« Reply #30 on: June 15, 2008, 08:26:49 PM »
If this is the DR. Clark you are talking about then I wouldn't be relying on any of her remedies...and I would listen to Dach's advise


It is the evil Hulda Clark. 
http://www.drclark.net/en/cleanses_clean-ups/liver_cleanses.php

She's still mixing Traditional Chinese Medicine with hocus pocus to line her pockets and spread untruth.
"The real problem is not whether machines think but whether men do." - BF Skinner
12-31-09   222wks VL  2430 CD4 690 (37%)
09-30-09   208wks VL  2050  CD4 925 (42%)
06-25-08   143wks VL  1359  CD4 668 (32%)  CD8 885
02-11-08   123wks off meds:  VL 1364 CD4 892(40%/0.99 ratio)
10-19-07   112wks off meds:   VL 292  CD4 857(37%/0.85 ratio)

One copy of delta-32 for f*****d up CCR5 receptors, and an HLA B44+ allele for "CD8-mediated immunity"... beteer than winning Powerball, almost!

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: Liver Cleansing and Chinese Medicine
« Reply #31 on: June 15, 2008, 08:28:29 PM »
Like TCM isn't hocus-pocus.

MtD

Offline Merlin

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Re: Liver Cleansing and Chinese Medicine
« Reply #32 on: June 15, 2008, 09:23:26 PM »
TCM also encourages holistic living to balance the yin/yang energies. Whole and natural FOODs form a big part of that regiment.

In TCM, Beetroot is known to detox the liver and kidneys whilst it enhances immune functions. Juicing is best. Good luck.
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Offline sharkdiver

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Re: Liver Cleansing and Chinese Medicine
« Reply #33 on: June 15, 2008, 09:34:25 PM »
TCM also encourages holistic living to balance the yin/yang energies. Whole and natural FOODs form a big part of that regiment.

In TCM, Beetroot is known to detox the liver and kidneys whilst it enhances immune functions. Juicing is best. Good luck.

In moderation.  If you have high triglycerides as myself (caused by the meds) and need to be on limited carbs, juicing is to be extremely limited or avoided.

Offline Okealyshire

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Re: Liver Cleansing and Chinese Medicine
« Reply #34 on: June 16, 2008, 07:54:50 PM »
Just because some ancient priactice has been followed for thousands of years doesn't mean it's any good. We occupiers of the modern age have the advantage of a medicne based on the scientific method and the use of controlled, randomized trials to deterimine efficacy.

The human body is a complex yet well-understood organism. This understanding comes from rigourous scientific exploration over a long period of time. No one has found any evidence for non-corporeal "balance," for various ethereal energy flows, or even four the existence of a soul (which, of course must be kept in balance with the mind).

Spend a while perusing these web sites. Interesting stuff, I promise.

[Hallå from Sweden.]

Offline Bicepguy

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Re: Liver Cleansing and Chinese Medicine
« Reply #35 on: June 28, 2008, 02:36:34 AM »
Beau, what are you trying to detox or clense your liver of?  Is it a general desire to live well to be in good shape for HIV meds?  Good idea.

The liver's function is to clense your blood and process chemicals.   That's its job. It's a chemical factory.

The two things to avoid are excess alcohol and high fat diets.  Both can help damage the liver.  Oh and make sure you have anti HEP-A and anti HEP-B shots up to date.  Co-infection with HEP-C is very common and it can have a devastating, possibly fatal effect on you through liver disease. There is no immunity to Hep-C.

I have a simple test to apply to any web site offering any treatment - are they selling something?  If they are, don't trust it and go get some advice elsewhere, where they are NOT selling something. You will soon unearth comment about suspect sites and the quacks who play with our minds and sell snake oil.

You will notice a recurring theme in all alternative medicine (ie not  based on published double blind studies reviewed by scientific peers): they are theories, unproven, might work, works for me, lots of anecdotal evidence, my uncle bob got better etc.  I don't dismiss any of it but unless it's studied and compared to a different treatment and no treatment at all, it's all just conjecture and guessing.  Any care and attention we receive is beneficial, however it is delivered.  This is called the placebo effect and is not to be ignored - the body responds to care and attention.

From what you say there is nothing wrong with your liver.  Eat well, drink lots of water, rest between using recreational drugs including alcohol (especially) and avoid the quacks who will sell you junk science with no proven benefit.  Worse, some "natural" therapies are toxic and interact with anti HIV drugs and other prescribed medicine.

Just say know.
Co-infected HIV/HepC Geno 4. HIV HAART = Truvada/Sustiva, <50 VL, CD4 350-450, 30%.  Vast HCV V before starting Peg Interferon/Ribavarin Nov 2007 - zero VL after weeks.

Offline tooltimer

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Re: Liver Cleansing and Chinese Medicine
« Reply #36 on: August 29, 2008, 10:55:51 PM »
Hi,

I've only been reading these forums for about a month.  I am very impressed with many of the comments I have heard.

So, I reluctantly making this comment.  About two years ago I was told to do a liver cleanse. If I recall, the recipe was the juice of a lemon, a can of Coke and (I think a CUP) of olive oil.  Put all three ingredients in a blender. Mix it up well and drink the foamy oily 'stuff'.  It didn't taste wonderful, but the olive oil helped it slide right down.  After drinking it you lay on your 'right side' for a half hour. 

All I can say is that I definitely 'flushed' something out of my body. The strangest things ended up in the toilet during the next couple days. I had never done any type of body cleansing. At the time I was 45. I was told that one of the things I could expect to eliminate from my body was a build up of paraffin, which is found in cheap chocolate candy bars. The paraffin came out in the form of hundreds of pea-size green balls that floated in the toilet.  I couldn't believe how much of this came out of my body.  I was so curious that I had to pick one out of the toilet and analyze it.  It was a soft waxy substance. I would have sworn it was a green pea if I hadn't personally squished it and found it to be 'a waxy paraffin-like substance'. 

So, that being said, I'd like to hear from those of you who have mentioned cleansings and detoxifications, etc.  Have any of you heard of a similar 'recipe' and if so, I'd appreciate your input.  If my comment sounds like quackery, I'm confortable with your comment. But, even so, what organ did all this wax-like material come from.

Looking forward to your responses.

Thanks.

Offline sharkdiver

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Re: Liver Cleansing and Chinese Medicine
« Reply #37 on: August 30, 2008, 09:09:22 AM »
Hi,

I've only been reading these forums for about a month.  I am very impressed with many of the comments I have heard.

So, I reluctantly making this comment.  About two years ago I was told to do a liver cleanse. If I recall, the recipe was the juice of a lemon, a can of Coke and (I think a CUP) of olive oil.  Put all three ingredients in a blender. Mix it up well and drink the foamy oily 'stuff'.  It didn't taste wonderful, but the olive oil helped it slide right down.  After drinking it you lay on your 'right side' for a half hour. 

All I can say is that I definitely 'flushed' something out of my body. The strangest things ended up in the toilet during the next couple days. I had never done any type of body cleansing. At the time I was 45. I was told that one of the things I could expect to eliminate from my body was a build up of paraffin, which is found in cheap chocolate candy bars. The paraffin came out in the form of hundreds of pea-size green balls that floated in the toilet.  I couldn't believe how much of this came out of my body.  I was so curious that I had to pick one out of the toilet and analyze it.  It was a soft waxy substance. I would have sworn it was a green pea if I hadn't personally squished it and found it to be 'a waxy paraffin-like substance'. 

So, that being said, I'd like to hear from those of you who have mentioned cleansings and detoxifications, etc.  Have any of you heard of a similar 'recipe' and if so, I'd appreciate your input.  If my comment sounds like quackery, I'm confortable with your comment. But, even so, what organ did all this wax-like material come from.

Looking forward to your responses.

Thanks.
hmmm waxy paraffin looking substance

Have you ever put olive oil into water?    I can see it clearing out your Colon with all that fat and sugar, but you liver? come on..... sounds like crap to me (literally and figuratively)  Lying on your right side for 30 minutes...how is this going to reach your liver? It would take more than half an hour for all that fat to get through your small intestines to enter your blood supply and get filtered through your liver if it did.

Yes it indeed sounds like quackery.

oh and ewwww playing with your poo. did you really need to share that....lol
« Last Edit: August 30, 2008, 10:42:56 AM by sharkdiver »

 


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