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Author Topic: Who Should Die?  (Read 3202 times)

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Offline Matty the Damned

  • Member
  • Posts: 12,244
  • Ninja Please
Who Should Die?
« on: May 05, 2008, 08:47:35 PM »
. . . in the event of a 'flu pandemic? From CBS online via AP:

(AP) Doctors know some patients needing lifesaving care won't get it in a flu pandemic or other disaster. The gut-wrenching dilemma will be deciding who to let die.

Now, an influential group of physicians has drafted a grimly specific list of recommendations for which patients wouldn't be treated. They include the very elderly, seriously hurt trauma victims, severely burned patients and those with severe dementia.

The suggested list was compiled by a task force whose members come from prestigious universities, medical groups, the military and government agencies. They include the Department of Homeland Security, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and the Department of Health and Human Services.


(source)
/emphasis added by MtD/

Who would you add to this list of the doomed? Brittney? K-Fed? One or more of the Osmonds?

MtD

Offline thunter34

  • Member
  • Posts: 7,326
  • His name is Carl.
Re: Who Should Die?
« Reply #1 on: May 05, 2008, 08:57:52 PM »
Over zealous cat lovers.
AIDS isn't for sissies.

Offline GSOgymrat

  • Member
  • Posts: 5,054
  • HIV+ since 1993. INTJ
Re: Who Should Die?
« Reply #2 on: May 05, 2008, 08:59:21 PM »
Maybe the people who are absolutely certain they are going to heaven. Those of us who aren't need the extra time! ;)

Offline thunter34

  • Member
  • Posts: 7,326
  • His name is Carl.
Re: Who Should Die?
« Reply #3 on: May 05, 2008, 09:01:30 PM »
Maybe the people who are absolutely certain they are going to heaven. Those of us who aren't need the extra time! ;)

BRAVO, Ford.  Bravo.
AIDS isn't for sissies.

Offline richva

  • Member
  • Posts: 87
Re: Who Should Die?
« Reply #4 on: May 05, 2008, 09:03:34 PM »
Over zealous cat lovers.

Boo!  Hiss!
 ;)

Says the guy with two cats.

(And a dog.  Crowded in here.)
08/1989 Acquired
04/1992 Diagnosed
03/25/2008 (YUP - 16 years later!) CD4 336/21% VL 217,000; started meds
08/2012 - Alive, living! and doing just fine, TYVM (w/ props to my doc, insurance carrier and Complera. I remember every day that I'm a lucky boy.)

Offline Dachshund

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  • Posts: 5,999
Re: Who Should Die?
« Reply #5 on: May 05, 2008, 09:10:06 PM »

Offline aliveinla

  • Member
  • Posts: 247
Re: Who Should Die?
« Reply #6 on: May 05, 2008, 10:15:50 PM »
mortgage brokers, bankers, or anybody in LA who thinks their 2 bedroom 50 year old house worth more than 1M dollars.
4/24/07: Last tested Neg
1/22/08: First tested Poz
1/30/08: CD4 393; 28%; VL: 44k
3/18/08: CD4 218; 26%; VL: 222K
4/24/08: CD4 402; 26%; VL: lab forgot
7/22/08: CD4 405; 25%; VL: 6,780
10/15/08: CD4 340, 26%; VL: N/A
2/4/09: CD4 394, 26%; VL: N/A
Jun 09: CD4 300, 25%; VL: 4000
Oct 09: CD4 324, 23%, VL: 10K
11/22/09: started Atripla
11/20/11: CD4 405; VL: UD

Offline aliveinla

  • Member
  • Posts: 247
Re: Who Should Die?
« Reply #7 on: May 05, 2008, 10:17:05 PM »
I heard this news over the radio on my morning commute. Was really happy they didn't include us poz people.
4/24/07: Last tested Neg
1/22/08: First tested Poz
1/30/08: CD4 393; 28%; VL: 44k
3/18/08: CD4 218; 26%; VL: 222K
4/24/08: CD4 402; 26%; VL: lab forgot
7/22/08: CD4 405; 25%; VL: 6,780
10/15/08: CD4 340, 26%; VL: N/A
2/4/09: CD4 394, 26%; VL: N/A
Jun 09: CD4 300, 25%; VL: 4000
Oct 09: CD4 324, 23%, VL: 10K
11/22/09: started Atripla
11/20/11: CD4 405; VL: UD

Offline BT65

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  • Member
  • Posts: 10,095
Re: Who Should Die?
« Reply #8 on: May 05, 2008, 10:18:36 PM »
I heard this news over the radio on my morning commute. Was really happy they didn't include us poz people.

Yet.
I've never killed anyone, but I frequently get satisfaction reading the obituary notices.-Clarence Darrow

Offline Oceanbeach

  • Member
  • Posts: 3,565
Re: Who Should Die?
« Reply #9 on: May 05, 2008, 10:21:57 PM »
From my point of view, the person who gets the Flu shot is the most likely to get the Flu.  ;D  During one of my early years of having HIV, I had a dream date lined up after Mr. Right returned form a business trip to Palm Springs...  We were to go on a balloon ride (his balloon) somewhere in the desert, followed by a dinner at the Ritz Carlton, Laguna Niguel.  He had a Flu shot the day before he left, got sick in PS, returned to L.A. and spent the next week sick.  His doctor said, "imagine how sick you would have been if you did not take the shot?"  Apparently, there was a slight miscalculation of the components of that years Flu.  I did not take the shot and did not get sick.

I have refused the Flu shot every year since and have not gotten the Flu.

Do you know how the name Levi Strauss became such a huge name in the clothing industry?  In order to sell Levi products, you had to apply and qualify, it could take years to get an allotment.  You may order up to that allotment for every season, but not order more.  Knowing the amount of product needed for each season, Levi would produce less than ordered, creating a demand.  I think this is "supply side economics".

Every year I have refused a Flu shot there were rumors of a shortage, the elderly and persons with a life threatening illness, get first right to refuse SO... in my line of thinking, the Flu shot, not unlike Levi Strauss and the 501's of the 80's are both practicing "supply side economics".

This past Flu season, I had just met Walter online, we had planned a first date, sailing in the San Francisco Bay.  Walter had the Flu shot, there was some miscalculation in this years Flu, Walter was sick for two weeks.  I refused the shot and did not get sick.  So, I'll refuse the Flu shot next year and be the first on the list.  ;D  Have the best day
Michael
(who has a pretty good idea, entrance to Heaven is not on the agenda)

Offline draco

  • Member
  • Posts: 18
  • I'm a real Monet... or is it Magritte?
Re: Who Should Die?
« Reply #10 on: May 05, 2008, 10:23:23 PM »
Quote
They include the very elderly, seriously hurt trauma victims, severely burned patients and those with severe dementia.

Define:
  • 1) the very elderly
  • 2) seriously hurt trauma victims
  • 3) severely burned patients
  • 4) those with severe dementia

Honestly if I were yet a member of any of what I'd consider those groups (or in triage would have to consider those groups) I have no problem as long as palliative care or euthanasia are provided for the qualifying people.   At least these purported measures don't use IQ or race, religion, sexual orientation, et cetera as others have in the past.

I suppose with a flu pandemic some models might help (although I know we're about due for another big one like the one in early teens of the 20th century) but what about other large-scale disasters? 

The hard part is defining and, given the uncertainty of the enormity of a disaster, how well structured the decision-making process would be for defining those categories -- in an imminent meteor strike the very elderly might be 50 and above, or even lower.  Those with severe dementia might be the aleurophobic and above.  Either way I'm a goner.

The unfortunate facts of life are in some horrible situations decisions about who will live and die are based on such assessments, as parenthetically mentioned.  In the USA and many westernized countries especially we have been spared such gut-wrenching decisions.   If there are only enough medical personnel to handle 10,000 people and there are 20,000 in need of care how would you respond? 

With luck, which I've almost always had, I'll be quite dead before such a situation arises.
  a semi-retraction just in case of bad juju.

Drac

Offline pacerintl

  • Member
  • Posts: 83
Re: Who Should Die?
« Reply #11 on: May 05, 2008, 10:28:17 PM »
I''m not sure if this was posted to be informative or as a bit of a joke judging from the responses.
What the OP failed to mention "Those with severe trauma" this would of course include people who present in the ER with opportunistic infections...of course an HIV test would be ordered, there would be no time or money to allocate to people that are going to need either long time care or a long term investment.  It's sucks but it would be reality.

Offline sharkdiver

  • Member
  • Posts: 1,350
Re: Who Should Die?
« Reply #12 on: May 05, 2008, 10:34:36 PM »
I'm sorry that lawyers weren't mentioned on the list.

Offline bocker3

  • Member
  • Posts: 3,458
  • You gotta enjoy life......
Re: Who Should Die?
« Reply #13 on: May 05, 2008, 10:41:02 PM »
Actually, the story in my local paper included "those with serious chronic illnesses, like uncontrolled diabetes".  I am assuming that would leave me out of luck -- no, I don't have diabetes, but HIV is a serious chronic illness..... 
The story went on to say that this policy would run into trouble with age and disability discrimination laws (probably why they didn't include the lawyers -- someone will need to handle all the lawsuits)

Mike
Atripla - Started 12/05
Reyataz/Norvir - Added 6/06
Labs - Pre-Meds
Sep05 T=350/25% VL98,559
Nov05 288/18%  47,564
Current Labs
May2013 691/31% <20

Offline Matty the Damned

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  • Posts: 12,244
  • Ninja Please
Re: Who Should Die?
« Reply #14 on: May 05, 2008, 10:47:56 PM »
I''m not sure if this was posted to be informative or as a bit of a joke judging from the responses.
What the OP failed to mention "Those with severe trauma" this would of course include people who present in the ER with opportunistic infections...


 ::)

I posted the first 3 pars from the online article verbatim. I also provided a link to the full article, so your suggestion that I failed to mention something is quite wrong.

The intention of the thread is to stimulate an interesting and informed debate replete with both serious views and light-hearted observations. Given that the latter seems out of your reach, perhaps you should confine yourself to the former.

Best regards,

MtD
/edited for a spelling error/
« Last Edit: May 05, 2008, 10:52:15 PM by matty.the.damned »

Offline aliveinla

  • Member
  • Posts: 247
Re: Who Should Die?
« Reply #15 on: May 05, 2008, 10:49:25 PM »
To be safe, I will always carry a pocket full of 20 dollar bills...
4/24/07: Last tested Neg
1/22/08: First tested Poz
1/30/08: CD4 393; 28%; VL: 44k
3/18/08: CD4 218; 26%; VL: 222K
4/24/08: CD4 402; 26%; VL: lab forgot
7/22/08: CD4 405; 25%; VL: 6,780
10/15/08: CD4 340, 26%; VL: N/A
2/4/09: CD4 394, 26%; VL: N/A
Jun 09: CD4 300, 25%; VL: 4000
Oct 09: CD4 324, 23%, VL: 10K
11/22/09: started Atripla
11/20/11: CD4 405; VL: UD

Offline dusty99

  • Member
  • Posts: 103
Re: Who Should Die?
« Reply #16 on: May 05, 2008, 11:30:10 PM »
I think the entire congress and senate should have been on the list, we need a fresh start, just changing the chief exec won't do it. Every single member of congress needs to relieved of duty and term limits....well, I am getting off topic, anyway the entire congress needs to be on the list.

put them at the top.
17 Mar 08: diagnosed
31 Mar 08 CD4: 565,  30%  VL: 28,900
21 May 08 CD4: 600,  37%  VL: 13,000
25 Oct 08  CD4: 308   34%  VL: 68,000
19 Nov 08 Started Atripla
16 Dec 08  CD4: 580   42% VL: 70
27 Jan 09  CD4: 490   41%  VL: undetectable
24 Mar 09  CD4: 565   42%  VL: undetectable
30 Jun 09  CD4: 615    41% VL: undetectable
25 Sep 09  CD4: 595    47% VL: undetectable

Offline Oceanbeach

  • Member
  • Posts: 3,565
Re: Who Should Die?
« Reply #17 on: May 05, 2008, 11:58:54 PM »
I'm sorry that lawyers weren't mentioned on the list.

I read somewhere recently, the leading cause of death for Lawyers wives is boredom  ;D  Have the best day
Michael

Offline komnaes

  • Member
  • Posts: 1,898
Re: Who Should Die?
« Reply #18 on: May 06, 2008, 01:28:30 AM »
I read somewhere recently, the leading cause of death for Lawyers wives is boredom  ;D  Have the best day
Michael

Hey, what have I done to deserve this?! ;)
Aug 07 Diagnosed
Oct 07 CD4=446(19%) Feb 08 CD4=421(19%)
Jun 08 CD4=325(22%) Jul 08 CD4=301(18%)
Sep 08 CD4=257/VL=75,000 Oct 08 CD4=347(16%)
Dec 08 CD4=270(16%)
Jan 09 CD4=246(13%)/VL=10,000
Feb 09 CD4=233(15%)/VL=13,000
Started meds Sustiva/Epzicom
May 09 CD4=333(24%)/VL=650
Aug 09 CD4=346(24%)/VL=UD
Nov 09 CD4=437(26%)/VL=UD
Feb 10 CD4=471(31%)/VL=UD
June 10 CD4=517 (28%)/VL=UD
Sept 10 CD4=687 (31%)/VL=UD
Jan 11 CD4=557 (30%)/VL=UD
April 11 CD4=569 (32%)/VL=UD
Switched to Epizcom, Reyataz and Norvir
(Interrupted for 2 months with only Epizcom & Reyataz)
July 11 CD=520 (28%)/VL=UD
Oct 11 CD=771 (31%)/VL=UD(<30)
April 12 CD=609 (28%)/VL=UD(<20)
Aug 12 CD=657 (29%)/VL=UD(<20)
Dec 12 CD=532 (31%)/VL=UD(<20)
May 13 CD=567 (31%)/VL=UD(<20)
Jan 14 CD=521 (21%)/VL=UD(<50)

Offline Oceanbeach

  • Member
  • Posts: 3,565
Re: Who Should Die?
« Reply #19 on: May 06, 2008, 02:42:15 AM »
Hey, what have I done to deserve this?! ;)

Shaun Dahlin,

You didn't do anything to deserve this...  I have been working on a safety program design specifically for small cities (about the size of Napa, Calif).  My current task is a 12 month program for the City Attorney Office.  Today, I have addressed:
Evacuation Plan in case of a natural disaster
Possibility of Workplace Violence
Potential Health Hazards of Video Display Terminals
Potential for Repetitive Motion Injuries
Stress management

Sonomabeach is kind of wound up tighter than a main spring right now and trying to have a little fun.  ;D  Have the best day
Michael

bleueyes

  • Guest
Re: Who Should Die?
« Reply #20 on: May 06, 2008, 05:01:51 AM »
Actually according to insurance companies HIV is not a chronic illness, it is a terminal illness. And if the flu epidemic broke out we all would be dead because they did it to get rid of us! The few who would survive would only be treated wrong since there would then be so few of us in numbers!
This would be their way of weeding out the population, of the undesirables.
I live up here in Montana where I have been compared to a movie called cabin fever.
The place where men are men and women need men!

Offline Matty the Damned

  • Member
  • Posts: 12,244
  • Ninja Please
Re: Who Should Die?
« Reply #21 on: May 06, 2008, 05:47:44 AM »
Actually according to insurance companies HIV is not a chronic illness, it is a terminal illness. And if the flu epidemic broke out we all would be dead because they did it to get rid of us! The few who would survive would only be treated wrong since there would then be so few of us in numbers!
This would be their way of weeding out the population, of the undesirables.
I live up here in Montana where I have been compared to a movie called cabin fever.
The place where men are men and women need men!


Montana eh?

MtD

Offline Queen Tokelove

  • Member
  • Posts: 6,033
  • Smokey the Smurf
Re: Who Should Die?
« Reply #22 on: May 06, 2008, 11:35:22 AM »
Leave it up to my Beloved to come up with something to make one wonder. I wouldn't off any of those people you list or they listed rather. Why don't we start with the jailbirds or don't they count? If so, I would go for the ones on Death Row in every state. If it is a state that does not do the death sentence then let's go with those ones who got life for murder or for raping a child. Or do they not matter?

*glares@Thunter*...I consider myself to be quite the cat lover. Just call me Catwoman, hear me roar. And if someone took your advice and killed us cat lovers first, I'd make sure I would haunt you for the rest of your life.I would do all those little things my cats do to irritate me to you. Every morning you would wake up to something in your house shreaded to ribbons. I would do my business on your front step and leave you presents of dead mice or birds....*smiles prettily*

I guess IwishIhadacat better go into hiding....He would get offed in a NY minute just for his name on here and the fact he is a lawyer. Run IwishIhadacat Run!!!!
Started Atripla/Ziagen on 9/13/07.
10/31/07 CD4-265 VL- undetectable
2/6/08 CD4- 401 VL- undetectable
5/7/08 CD4- 705 VL- undetectable
6/4/08 CD4- 775 VL- undetectable
8/6/08 CD4- 805 VL- undetectable
11/13/08 CD4- 774 VL--undetectable
2/4/09  CD4- 484  VL- 18,000 (2 months off meds)
3/3/09---Starting Back on Meds---
4/27/09 CD4- 664 VL-- undetectable
6/17/09 CD4- 438 VL- 439
8/09 CD4- 404 VL- 1,600
01-22-10-- CD4- 525 VL- 59,000
Cherish the simple things life has to offer

The Royal Blog

Offline aliveinla

  • Member
  • Posts: 247
Re: Who Should Die?
« Reply #23 on: May 06, 2008, 11:37:36 AM »
Hey, what have I done to deserve this?! ;)

Shaun, are you a lawyer or married one? Next time in Burbank let's for sure to meet.
4/24/07: Last tested Neg
1/22/08: First tested Poz
1/30/08: CD4 393; 28%; VL: 44k
3/18/08: CD4 218; 26%; VL: 222K
4/24/08: CD4 402; 26%; VL: lab forgot
7/22/08: CD4 405; 25%; VL: 6,780
10/15/08: CD4 340, 26%; VL: N/A
2/4/09: CD4 394, 26%; VL: N/A
Jun 09: CD4 300, 25%; VL: 4000
Oct 09: CD4 324, 23%, VL: 10K
11/22/09: started Atripla
11/20/11: CD4 405; VL: UD

 


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