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Author Topic: Regarding the Presidential race in the USA  (Read 10436 times)

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Offline david25luvit

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Regarding the Presidential race in the USA
« on: May 04, 2008, 02:53:32 PM »
I think I can safely say that the political race for President this year has a lot of us American voters
uneasy....  Regardless of whether you're a Republican or a Democrat....the choice of candidates leaves
a lot to be desired.  Of the three candidates...Clinton, Obama or McCain....which is more HIV friendly?

I don't have a clue....  I think a Democrat would be more "concerned" about us HIV folks but McCain
is making all the right noises too.  Any suggestions as to whom I should vote for in November???

(if this post is not acceptable in this section...I'm assuming Ann or somebody will move it)
« Last Edit: May 04, 2008, 02:55:04 PM by david25luvit »
In Memory of
Raymond David McRae III
Nov. 25, 1972- Oct. 15, 2004
I miss him terribly..........

Offline Miss Philicia

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"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline david25luvit

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Re: Regarding the Presidential race in the USA
« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2008, 03:25:31 PM »
Sorry Philly.........I stand corrected.  I also received a private message and they had some good things to say about
Obama's views on HIV.  Thanks for the heads up on McCain.  So much for making all the right noises.  Indeed he is
a Reagan-nite.

In Memory of
Raymond David McRae III
Nov. 25, 1972- Oct. 15, 2004
I miss him terribly..........

Offline Oceanbeach

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Re: Regarding the Presidential race in the USA
« Reply #3 on: May 05, 2008, 03:39:05 AM »
I was kind of hoping to vote for Senator Clinton.  During the RWCA modernization, she refused to support early legislation because, she refused to support a bill which would put 100,000 of her people in jeopardy  ;D  Have the best day
Michael

[attachment deleted by admin]

Offline aliveinla

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Re: Regarding the Presidential race in the USA
« Reply #4 on: May 05, 2008, 10:10:12 PM »
i don't mind either one of the two democratics, but the longer they fight, the less I like either of them. But again, I will vote any of them who becomes the candidate. Never Mccain. 100 years in Iraq? Does he have any brain?
4/24/07: Last tested Neg
1/22/08: First tested Poz
1/30/08: CD4 393; 28%; VL: 44k
3/18/08: CD4 218; 26%; VL: 222K
4/24/08: CD4 402; 26%; VL: lab forgot
7/22/08: CD4 405; 25%; VL: 6,780
10/15/08: CD4 340, 26%; VL: N/A
2/4/09: CD4 394, 26%; VL: N/A
Jun 09: CD4 300, 25%; VL: 4000
Oct 09: CD4 324, 23%, VL: 10K
11/22/09: started Atripla
11/20/11: CD4 405; VL: UD

Offline BT65

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Re: Regarding the Presidential race in the USA
« Reply #5 on: May 05, 2008, 10:16:06 PM »
Tomorrow is my state's primary (Indiana).  I'll be out voting early.  BTW, I'm voting for Obama.
I've never killed anyone, but I frequently get satisfaction reading the obituary notices.-Clarence Darrow

Offline BlueMoon

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Re: Regarding the Presidential race in the USA
« Reply #6 on: May 05, 2008, 10:24:42 PM »
I have the impression that Hillary is the most HIV-friendly, but I haven't researched that in any depth.  It's unlikely that McCain will be my choice come November.
...................VL.....CD4.....%
-----------------------------------------
08/10-- ......<40.....290.....42
05/10-- ......<48.....290.....46
02/10-- ......<48.....481.....44
10/09-- ......<48.....277.....46
07/09-- ......<48.....300.....38
05/09-- ........51.....449.....39
03/09-- Added Isentress
02/09-- ........65.....299.....34
11/08-- ........62.....242.....40
08/08-- ........66.....212.....29
05/08-- ......202.....217.....27
03/08-- ....5210.....187.....21
02/08-- Began Truvada/Reyataz/Norvir
12/07-- 273,000.....157.....22
11/07-- 229,000.....209.....22
10/07-- Diagnosis

It's a complex world.

Offline Desertguy

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Re: Regarding the Presidential race in the USA
« Reply #7 on: May 05, 2008, 11:22:47 PM »
I would agree that Hill is more HIV friendly.  As her husband sure was easyu in trying to bring it home to her.

Sorry had to get that off my chest

Offline Desertguy

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Re: Regarding the Presidential race in the USA
« Reply #8 on: May 05, 2008, 11:24:27 PM »
ANd yea today is Cinco De Mayo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!       Have a shot of Tequila on me lets celebrate.  I wonder how many people know what Cinco De Mayo is for.?????

Offline MitchMiller

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Re: Regarding the Presidential race in the USA
« Reply #9 on: May 06, 2008, 01:57:05 AM »
I think it all comes down to who offers the best overall health care coverage.  I think Hillary is the most realistic in realizing that everyone must be in the insured pool to help spread the risk.  This is basically how it's done in other countries.  I like McCain's idea to get the employer out of the health care coverage game.  That would help eliminate discrimination and promote job mobility among those w/HIV that get their insurance from their employer.  Many HIV+ folks feel stuck in their jobs because they don't want to risk losing their insurance.  The current system also makes in difficult for HIV+ folks to try to start their own business.
Both Obama and Hillary have moved closer to one another as both are calling for a federal insurance program for the uninsurable.  The problem here would be cost.  All the sickest of the population would be thrown into this plan. 
None of them go far enough to admit that we need either a single payer, tax funded system or a heavily regulated insurance industry where insurance co.'s function as not-for-profit.
Personally I doubt anything substantial will be done about health care by any of them.  I even doubt there will be a Federal program for the uninsurable set up.  More likely, the Feds will just push it off onto the states as a mandate, and provide funding that must be part of the annually approved budget.  The premiums will still be sky high (they are nearly $3000/month in CA)... just wait and see... maybe I'm just too old to be idealistic.

Offline Ann

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Re: Regarding the Presidential race in the USA
« Reply #10 on: May 06, 2008, 06:52:57 AM »
ANd yea today is Cinco De Mayo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!       Have a shot of Tequila on me lets celebrate.  I wonder how many people know what Cinco De Mayo is for.?????

It is my understanding that the purpose of Cinco De Mayo is to prevent Cuarto De Mayo and Sexto De Mayo from bumping into each other. ;D

Ann
Condoms are a girl's best friend

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"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

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HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline Gary85741

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Re: Regarding the Presidential race in the USA
« Reply #11 on: May 06, 2008, 10:58:18 AM »

Hillary (and even John McCain) wish to repeal the Federal gas tax during the summer to give us some degree of relief from the crushing gasoline prices.  Mr. Obama is against doing so and feels it is a "political gimmick."  Maybe he should tell that to people who have to cut back on groceries or other mandated expenses in order to continue buying gas in order to get to work, medical appointments, etc. 

Though the gas prices are frustrating to me, I am lucky that I can afford it.  But I have empathy for those who cannot, and it's interesting to see who in the political arena likewise has empathy for those worse off than they, and who (Mr. Obama) does not.  Hillary got my vote in February's Arizona primary and I wish her the best as we approach the finish line.

Gary
Poz since '89. 
Current regimen: Rescriptor, Emtriva, Kaletra, Invirase, Acyclovir, Lisinopril, Lipitor, Prilosec, Valium, Testim, Nandrolone, Loperamidr, Marinol.

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Regarding the Presidential race in the USA
« Reply #12 on: May 06, 2008, 11:39:11 AM »
source

Gas tax holiday would cost state $126 million


OLYMPIA -- The gas tax holiday proposed by Sens. John McCain and Hillary Clinton would save the typical Washington driver $28 this year but cost the state about $126 million in lost highway money and more than 4,300 highway-related jobs, according to a recent report.

With summer vacation season and the presidential election nearing, presidential candidates McCain and Clinton suggest a temporary repeal of the federal gas tax as a way to boost the economy and relieve part of the strain from skyrocketing prices.

Sen. Barack Obama, the front-runner for the Democratic nomination, opposes the plan, and the issue has become prominent in the run-up to Tuesday's presidential primaries in North Carolina and Indiana.

Because of the high cost associated with the proposed tax holiday, several Washington state politicians -- including some Clinton and McCain supporters -- are against it.
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline david25luvit

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Re: Regarding the Presidential race in the USA
« Reply #13 on: May 06, 2008, 12:59:35 PM »
Well I like a lot of things Hillary has to say but then I get the impression she'd say anything to get elected....as most politicians would.
However her attacks on Obama...most of them senseless...turned me off to her.   As far as being HIV and looking at their track records...
I could NEVER vote for McCain....   Unless something changes to sway my vote......Obama is my guy this November.


        (Not sure what this has to do with tequila and Cinco di Mayo Day but what do I know..........???)



modified to add this tidbit from an Illinois resident:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 But what I can tell you is that our gov't and policy people used to work with Obama in the IL state senate, they currently work with him as our IL senator and consider him an ally on HIV issues.  Our VP of Policy who is openly HIV+ is an Obama delegate.  And Obama is a donor to our organization.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------




« Last Edit: May 06, 2008, 01:04:24 PM by david25luvit »
In Memory of
Raymond David McRae III
Nov. 25, 1972- Oct. 15, 2004
I miss him terribly..........

Offline pozattitude

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    • to find out more about me....
Re: Regarding the Presidential race in the USA
« Reply #14 on: May 06, 2008, 01:37:19 PM »
vote Democrat, no matter who gets the nomination.
McCain is an asshole in my opinion and this is why:

Voted against MLK holiday in 1983; now calls that a mistake. (Apr 2008)
Don't ask, don't tell is working; don't tamper with it. (Jun 2007
Supports repealing Roe v. Wade. (May 2007)
Voted YES on defining unborn child as eligible for SCHIP. (Mar 2008)
Voted YES on barring HHS grants to organizations that perform abortions. (Oct 2007)
Voted YES on recommending Constitutional ban on flag desecration. (Jun 2006)
Voted NO on adding sexual orientation to definition of hate crimes. (Jun 2002)
Voted YES on loosening restrictions on cell phone wiretapping. (Oct 2001)
Voted NO on expanding hate crimes to include sexual orientation. (Jun 2000)
Voted YES on prohibiting same-sex marriage. (Sep 1996)
Voted NO on prohibiting job discrimination by sexual orientation. (Sep 1996)
Voted YES on Amendment to prohibit flag burning. (Dec 1995)
Voted YES on banning affirmative action hiring with federal funds. (Jul 1995)
Rated 0% by the ACLU, indicating an anti-civil rights voting record. (Dec 2002)
Rated 33% by the HRC, indicating a mixed record on gay rights. (Dec 2006)
Rated 7% by the NAACP, indicating an anti-affirmative-action stance. (Dec 2006)
Rated 25% by APHA, indicating a anti-public health voting record. (Dec 2003)

and....Graduated 5th from bottom of Naval Academy class...Does anyone want another low IQ dumb ass in the White House?

I'm not going to defend Hillary, but if she wins the nomination i'll support her, but my vote went to Obama.

 



POSITIVE PEDALERS... We are a group of people living with HIV/AIDS, eliminating stigma through our positive public example.

Offline Peter Staley

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Re: Regarding the Presidential race in the USA
« Reply #15 on: May 06, 2008, 01:43:42 PM »

Hillary (and even John McCain) wish to repeal the Federal gas tax during the summer to give us some degree of relief from the crushing gasoline prices.  Mr. Obama is against doing so and feels it is a "political gimmick."  Maybe he should tell that to people who have to cut back on groceries or other mandated expenses in order to continue buying gas in order to get to work, medical appointments, etc. 


Gary -- I respectfully disagree.  I think Obama and most economists consider it a gimmick because it won't do the one thing you think Hillary is trying to do -- save some folks some money.  Various states have tried gas tax holidays, and there's little evidence any of them worked (i.e. saved drivers money).  There are a couple of reasons for this.  There are various players that bring gasoline to the market, starting with the oil companies, and ending with the gas station owners (with various processing & delivery middlemen in between).  Absent federal price controls, there is nothing from keeping any of these players for maintaining or increasing their prices after the feds stop taking their cut (the gas tax), and pocketing the difference.

An even bigger threat to any holiday's effectiveness is the oil market itself.  Crude oil is traded on various futures exchanges, and like any commodity, its price is not only based on current supply and demand, but anticipated future supply and demand.  Even before a tax holiday begins, traders will anticipate higher demand, and the price of crude oil will rise (it rose $3 yesterday, and another $3 today, to $122/barrel).  Gas prices have recently gone up 10 cents a week, so wiping out the 18.4 cent savings from a federal gas tax holiday could happen with very little crude oil market price pressure -- about $5 a barrel would do the trick.

Just my two cents.  I'm for Obama, but some of my best friends are for Clinton.  I'm just glad we all care.

Peter

Offline Oceanbeach

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Re: Regarding the Presidential race in the USA
« Reply #16 on: May 06, 2008, 02:43:47 PM »
It is my understanding that the purpose of Cinco De Mayo is to prevent Cuarto De Mayo and Sexto De Mayo from bumping into each other. ;D

Ann


Hey Ann,

I have a perfectly good bottle of Cuervo 1800 which will keep Cuarto and Sexto from running into each other but, there are no guarantees on what I may run into today.  ;D ;D ;D Have the best day
Michael

Offline Assurbanipal

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Re: Regarding the Presidential race in the USA
« Reply #17 on: May 06, 2008, 02:48:52 PM »
I'm a Hillary supporter and voted for her -- but I'm starting to move to the Hillary 2016 camp   :)

Things like the gas tax gimmick have me wondering.  In addition to the reaction of oil markets pricing in demand changes as per above there's also (as I believe the Obama camp has pointed out) ways to help people that don't require them to use gas to get the help.  I'd prefer that we give $50 bucks to everyone who needs a hand than that we gave $30 bucks of free gas to only those who drive.  It seems to me to be a lot greener and help more people to give a tax rebate, than it is to lower a gas tax.

Regards
A
5/06 VL 1M+, CD4 22, 5% , pneumonia, thrush -- O2 support 2 months, 6/06 +Kaletra/Truvada
9/06 VL 3959 CD4 297 13.5% 12/06 VL <400 CD4 350 15.2% +Pravachol
2007 VL<400, 70, 50 CD4 408-729 16.0% -19.7%
2008 VL UD CD4 468 - 538 16.7% - 24.6% Osteoporosis 11/08 doubled Pravachol, +Calcium/D
02/09 VL 100 CD4 616 23.7% 03/09 VL 130 5/09 VL 100 CD4 540 28.4% +Actonel (osteoporosis) 7/09 VL 130
8/09  new regimen Isentress/Epzicom 9/09 VL UD CD4 621 32.7% 11/09 VL UD CD4 607 26.4% swap Isentress for Prezista/Norvir 12/09 (liver and muscle issues) VL 50
2010 VL UD CD4 573-680 26.1% - 30.9% 12/10 VL 20
2011 VL UD-20 CD4 568-673 24.7%-30.6%
2012 VL UD swap Prezista/Norvir for Reyataz drop statin CD4 768-828 26.7%-30.7%

Offline Oceanbeach

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Re: Regarding the Presidential race in the USA
« Reply #18 on: May 06, 2008, 04:08:37 PM »
I just went back to the "Can't decide who to vote for" survey posted by Jefferyj in Off Topic last January. 

Having completed the survey again, Barrack Obama as the candidate with 87% similarity so I went a little deeper to find Ralph Nader at 80%, Mike Gravel at 80%, Hillary Clinton at 77% and John McCain at 63%.

I want to vote for Hillary Clinton but will vote for Barrack Obama  ;D  Have the best day
Michael

Offline pinkadam

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Re: Regarding the Presidential race in the USA
« Reply #19 on: May 06, 2008, 09:03:19 PM »
I think I can safely say that the political race for President this year has a lot of us American voters
uneasy....  Regardless of whether you're a Republican or a Democrat....the choice of candidates leaves
a lot to be desired.  Of the three candidates...Clinton, Obama or McCain....which is more HIV friendly?

I don't have a clue....  I think a Democrat would be more "concerned" about us HIV folks but McCain
is making all the right noises too.  Any suggestions as to whom I should vote for in November???

(if this post is not acceptable in this section...I'm assuming Ann or somebody will move it)

I really dont like the policies of all the three candidates. None of them has a good plan for the universal healthcare.
I hate to see one more rich person getting into white house and only care for rich people.
Republicans always care for rich people so Mccain is out of the question. I used to like Hillary but her latest stunts are making her look bad. In my opinion she is rich too (Clintons made more than 100 million dollors after they came out of white house). This will only leave Obama. I guess i still have to watch more.

Offline sacinsc

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Re: Regarding the Presidential race in the USA
« Reply #20 on: May 07, 2008, 01:29:29 AM »
Well, after being gone from here for a couple weeks, this thread got me posting again. My biggest problem with Obama is there is no record to go on. His limited federal government experience has proved fruitless, he has gotten nothing passed in the Senate, has no bills turned into laws, has been apart of no coalitions to break dead lock. He has only been there a couple years, and while he makes great speeches, they are just that speeches. Where is the real policy? There is no proof about what he really believes and values. And I hate to bring this dead horse up, he has a poor sense of judgement when it comes to picking friends.

Clinton on the other hand, well I know what I am getting. There is a record there. She has proven that she wants universal healthcare in 1993. She has been in the Senate and been part of gridlock defusion. Yeah her latest attacks are a little off, and Bill seems to be going off the deep in, but all in all I know where she stands.

This is my big problem. Who do I trust? Do I gamble in the fall? Do I go with what I know? As for McCain, there are some interesting things about him. He is a maverick no doubt. Something though tells me that all this rhetoric he is spilling out right now will not be the true way he would run his administration if elected. In 2000, he came out and said he was prochoice. He has had to change his tune though to get the nomination. Granted he is a warmonger and will keep us in Iraq. But again, I know what I am getting.

Obama talks a great game, but can he back it up? What exactly are his real policies? There isn't a record to go on. Saying and doing are two different things.

So I sit and watch CNN and wait to see what happens. After the Democratic Convention, I will make up my mind in the Fall once both sides move back towards the middle. Right now it is pandering to the core of the party. Democrats are singing ultra liberal crap and Republicans are holding the Bible and screaming I am a Conservative like Reagan (who i believe 100% was one of the worst Presidents ever....not as bad as Bush, but who was?) Anyway, I voted for Clinton in the DC primary....like my vote counted in the Ultra Liberal and predominately African-American city. Obama's core supporters.

So my vote is.....wait and see when they go for the independent voter's like me!
March 07 - Negative
May 07 - Exposed
June 07 - Seroconversion
September 07 - CD4 402 VL 118000 25%
October 07 -     CD4 294 VL 124000 22%
November 07 - Norvir, Triuvada and Reyataz
December 07 -  CD4 355 VL  550 .... guess the meds are working.
January 08 - CD4 446 VL <48 undetectable!
April 08 - CD4 554 VL <48 undetectable!
July 08 - CD4 666 VL <48 undetectable! Hporay...I have devil CD4's

Offline Okealyshire

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Re: Regarding the Presidential race in the USA
« Reply #21 on: May 08, 2008, 02:18:56 AM »
while he makes great speeches, they are just that speeches

I've been thinking lately about presidential power, the necessity of experience, and the allure of oratorical prowess. We all like to think that presidents possess heroic abilities to affect drastic change in individual lives. Rarely, though, has it happened this way. Like it or not, Congress still wields more power. Also, like it or not, Congress moves (slowly, too slowly) in the direction of the people. Whence do the people obtain direction? A strong president, with bold ideas, and the fluency to express them with nuance, compassion, and detail.

America doesn't need a president who, like some cubicle-ensconsed engineer, will simply tinker with the inner workings of our political landscape (that's what a competent staff is for). America needs an obvious and articulate grand orator, indeed someone who can stand on the national soapbox and motivate the people (that's us) to finally start giving a damn. Eventually, if only to save their own careers, members of Congress will sense the people's direction, and enact legislation to implement the policies put forth by the president.

Wishful thinking, perhaps, but that's my rationale for pushing the Obama button on my voting machine. Now if only I can trust the software (the security of which I seriously doubt -- and that's what I do for a living).

Offline LordBerners

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Re: Regarding the Presidential race in the USA
« Reply #22 on: May 08, 2008, 07:25:38 AM »
Of course what america 'needs' (though it is too late) is an enormous dose of socialism (social democracy) so that we can live as well as our smarter, braver brethren in Europe, who stand up for themselves. 

People are excited about Obama because he is sort of a bit closer to a real liberal than the fake Democrats we've had for decades.  I hate to break it to you folks, but that won't be nearly enough.
Please, just call me Berners.. or Baron.

Offline BT65

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Re: Regarding the Presidential race in the USA
« Reply #23 on: May 08, 2008, 07:29:39 AM »
Okealyshire, I couldn't have said it better.  That's why on Tuesday, in my state's primary, Obama had my vote.
I've never killed anyone, but I frequently get satisfaction reading the obituary notices.-Clarence Darrow

Offline Peter Staley

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Re: Regarding the Presidential race in the USA
« Reply #24 on: May 08, 2008, 09:28:08 AM »
Well, after being gone from here for a couple weeks, this thread got me posting again. My biggest problem with Obama is there is no record to go on. His limited federal government experience has proved fruitless, he has gotten nothing passed in the Senate, has no bills turned into laws, has been apart of no coalitions to break dead lock. He has only been there a couple years, and while he makes great speeches, they are just that speeches. Where is the real policy? There is no proof about what he really believes and values. And I hate to bring this dead horse up, he has a poor sense of judgement when it comes to picking friends.

sacinsc -- dig a little deeper, and you'll find he's done plenty in the Senate (as much, if not more, than Clinton, and none of the really stupid fuck-ups, like voting for war approval).

Obama has passed several important laws in the Senate, including legislation to prevent terrorists from obtaining WMDs, increasing U.S. investment in alternative energy, improving services for our troops and veterans, and major ethics reform reining in lobbyists. 

If you want to read a much more complete and detailed description, I've attached a full list of his Senate accomplishments from his website.  It's worth a read, and pretty impressive.

Peter

[attachment deleted by admin]

Offline danpoz

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Re: Regarding the Presidential race in the USA
« Reply #25 on: May 08, 2008, 10:15:13 AM »
I'm just glad we all care.

I'm with Peter on this one, I don't care for whom you vote as long as you vote.  Sens. Clinton and Obama have such similar stances on so many issues I think whomever gets the nomination will be a huge step in the right, albeit Left, direction.  That being said, I'm not sure anyone who is elected could screw things up as badly as #43 has; but do we really want to give McCain the chance?
12/1/07 HIV-
3/17/08 HIV+, CD4 384, VL 39966
4/4/08 Started Atripla
7/14/08  CD4 343, VL Undetectable :-)


Offline Robert

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Re: Regarding the Presidential race in the USA
« Reply #26 on: May 08, 2008, 11:01:42 AM »
I voted for Obama.  I'm truly encouraged by him.  He gives me hope.

But so does Hillary.  Last summer I was very anti-Hillary.  But now so much anymore.  In fact, when she doesn't win I feel bad for her.  Actually I feel sorry for her.  Why?  I just hate that feeling.

robert
..........

Offline woodshere

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Re: Regarding the Presidential race in the USA
« Reply #27 on: May 08, 2008, 11:07:48 AM »
Well I am a HUGE HUGE Hillary supporter and have very little desire to see anyone else win, so I am very disappointed she won't be our nominee. I must confess that while I would NEVER vote for a Republican I was considering investigating other party nominees.  Kind of like since I didn't get my way I am going to pick up my toys and go home.  However, that would pretty much be a wasted vote and if enough of us let our disappointment determine how we vote then we increase the chance of a President McCain.  If Hillary is still running May 20th when KY votes I will cast my vote for her.  However in the fall I will be happy to vote for Obama.

.... but do we really want to give McCain the chance?

That pretty much set my mind on the right track.  Thanks danpoz.
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Offline bocker3

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Re: Regarding the Presidential race in the USA
« Reply #28 on: May 08, 2008, 04:58:11 PM »
I am a big Hillary fan -- for a whole number of reasons -- but I think the time has come for her to stop.  She isn't going to get the nomination.  Her last chance was to score a surprise win in NC -- she did not and her tight victory in IN was not enough to save her campaign.  I still believe she would be a more formidable candidate in the general election, but she and Obama are really not that far apart on most issues.  McCain must not win -- I can't take 4 more years of Bush.

Now, I have to touch on the oft-mentioned criticism of Hillary's "vote for war".  First, the vote was to authorize the use of force because Bush said it would be used to strengthen our negotiating position - thus lessening the likelihood of needing to use force.  Should she (and the majority of that Congress) have been worried that Bush was lying?  Should she (and the rest) have questioned the "intelligence" that was being presented?  In hindsight, absolutely -- but Monday morning quarterbacking is always easy - but only useful in learning lessons, not in placing blame.  How she voted on that makes no difference to me because the vote, ultimately, was meaningless.  Bush was going to attack Iraq regardless of what Congress authorized.
Now if she, like McCain, was still all gung-ho for the war, we'd have a different conversation.

Mike

P.S.  Can someone add Obama to the spell check -- I suspect we will be typing his name alot in the coming years.
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Offline Peter Staley

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Re: Regarding the Presidential race in the USA
« Reply #29 on: May 08, 2008, 06:38:22 PM »
Mike -- Bush could not have gone to war without the congressional vote -- that's why he asked for the vote.

Under the United States Constitution, war powers are divided and not equal. Congress has the power to declare war and raise and support the armed forces, and control the funding of the war (Article I, Section 8 ), while the President is Commander in Chief (Article II, Section 2).

In addition, there's the War Powers Resolution.  The War Powers Act of 1973 (Pub.L. 93-148), also referred to as the War Powers Resolution, is a resolution of Congress that stated that the President can send troops into action abroad only by authorization of Congress or if America is already under attack or serious threat. The War Powers Act requires that the president notify Congress within 48 hours of committing troops to military action and forbids troops from remaining for more than 90 days without a declaration of war.

Thanks for reminding me to add Obama to our spell checker!

Peter

Offline pinkadam

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Re: Regarding the Presidential race in the USA
« Reply #30 on: May 08, 2008, 07:44:40 PM »
Well, after being gone from here for a couple weeks, this thread got me posting again. My biggest problem with Obama is there is no record to go on. His limited federal government experience has proved fruitless, he has gotten nothing passed in the Senate, has no bills turned into laws, has been apart of no coalitions to break dead lock. He has only been there a couple years, and while he makes great speeches, they are just that speeches. Where is the real policy? There is no proof about what he really believes and values. And I hate to bring this dead horse up, he has a poor sense of judgement when it comes to picking friends.

Clinton on the other hand, well I know what I am getting. There is a record there. She has proven that she wants universal healthcare in 1993. She has been in the Senate and been part of gridlock defusion. Yeah her latest attacks are a little off, and Bill seems to be going off the deep in, but all in all I know where she stands.

This is my big problem. Who do I trust? Do I gamble in the fall? Do I go with what I know? As for McCain, there are some interesting things about him. He is a maverick no doubt. Something though tells me that all this rhetoric he is spilling out right now will not be the true way he would run his administration if elected. In 2000, he came out and said he was prochoice. He has had to change his tune though to get the nomination. Granted he is a warmonger and will keep us in Iraq. But again, I know what I am getting.

Obama talks a great game, but can he back it up? What exactly are his real policies? There isn't a record to go on. Saying and doing are two different things.

So I sit and watch CNN and wait to see what happens. After the Democratic Convention, I will make up my mind in the Fall once both sides move back towards the middle. Right now it is pandering to the core of the party. Democrats are singing ultra liberal crap and Republicans are holding the Bible and screaming I am a Conservative like Reagan (who i believe 100% was one of the worst Presidents ever....not as bad as Bush, but who was?) Anyway, I voted for Clinton in the DC primary....like my vote counted in the Ultra Liberal and predominately African-American city. Obama's core supporters.

So my vote is.....wait and see when they go for the independent voter's like me!
Hello My Friend , i used to think experience counts alot. G. Bush has lot of experience before he came to DC and all he did is weeken this country and waged a nasty war which is unethical. Hillary was next to her husband while her husband is the AK governor and she is next to her husband in the white house and then she became a senator and served NY. With all the experience she got , she voted in favour to the war in IRAQ !!!! I wonder how experience made her any different than a greedy Bush family !!!!

Offline bocker3

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Re: Regarding the Presidential race in the USA
« Reply #31 on: May 08, 2008, 08:37:39 PM »
Mike -- Bush could not have gone to war without the congressional vote -- that's why he asked for the vote.

Under the United States Constitution, war powers are divided and not equal. Congress has the power to declare war and raise and support the armed forces, and control the funding of the war (Article I, Section 8 ), while the President is Commander in Chief (Article II, Section 2).

In addition, there's the War Powers Resolution.  The War Powers Act of 1973 (Pub.L. 93-148), also referred to as the War Powers Resolution, is a resolution of Congress that stated that the President can send troops into action abroad only by authorization of Congress or if America is already under attack or serious threat. The War Powers Act requires that the president notify Congress within 48 hours of committing troops to military action and forbids troops from remaining for more than 90 days without a declaration of war.

Thanks for reminding me to add Obama to our spell checker!

Peter

Peter --

I know about the Constitutional Powers -- but when was the last time that Congress declared war?  1941!  Presidents have and will use force without official Congressional approval (Grenada, Panama, Haiti, Bay of Pigs).  I'm not saying that is right, but it is a fact.  Until some Congress decides to either withhold funding (which would be "spun" to look like they weren't supporting the troops in harms way) or takes a Prez to the Supreme Court for a ruling, this will continue.  So, I still believe that Bush would have gone into Iraq regardless.  Again -- I'm not saying it's right, but.....

Your welcome about adding Obama!  Can we remove Bush on 1/21/09??   ;D

Mike
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Offline bocker3

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Re: Regarding the Presidential race in the USA
« Reply #32 on: May 08, 2008, 08:40:12 PM »
Hello My Friend , i used to think experience counts alot. G. Bush has lot of experience before he came to DC and all he did is weeken this country and waged a nasty war which is unethical. Hillary was next to her husband while her husband is the AK governor and she is next to her husband in the white house and then she became a senator and served NY. With all the experience she got , she voted in favour to the war in IRAQ !!!! I wonder how experience made her any different than a greedy Bush family !!!!

What experience did Bush have?  How to avoid serving in a war (but he knew how to start one)?  How to run a baseball team?  How to run an oil company?
Except for a less than stellar turn as the Gov of Texas -- he defeated 1 candidate with far more experience and was given the White House by the Supreme Court over someone else with far more experience.

Mike
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Offline Cliff

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Re: Regarding the Presidential race in the USA
« Reply #33 on: May 09, 2008, 04:43:01 AM »
Peter --

I know about the Constitutional Powers -- but when was the last time that Congress declared war?  1941!  Presidents have and will use force without official Congressional approval (Grenada, Panama, Haiti, Bay of Pigs).  I'm not saying that is right, but it is a fact.  Until some Congress decides to either withhold funding (which would be "spun" to look like they weren't supporting the troops in harms way) or takes a Prez to the Supreme Court for a ruling, this will continue.  So, I still believe that Bush would have gone into Iraq regardless.  Again -- I'm not saying it's right, but.....
The President does need Congress to use force and more importantly fund a war/action.

I think it's a cop out to blame only Bush for the war in Iraq.  If Congress didn't want this war, there wouldn't be one.  It was Congress that authorized the use of force!  It was Congress that authorized the President to enforce the UN resolutions.  Those votes were declarations of war, in everything but the name!  Plus, how many times has Congress voted to issue a blank check to fund the war?

Bush couldn't and wouldn't have gone to war if Congress was dead set against it!
« Last Edit: May 09, 2008, 07:10:42 AM by Cliff »

Offline Peter Staley

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Re: Regarding the Presidential race in the USA
« Reply #34 on: May 09, 2008, 06:38:29 AM »
Peter --

I know about the Constitutional Powers -- but when was the last time that Congress declared war?  1941!  Presidents have and will use force without official Congressional approval (Grenada, Panama, Haiti, Bay of Pigs).  I'm not saying that is right, but it is a fact.  Until some Congress decides to either withhold funding (which would be "spun" to look like they weren't supporting the troops in harms way) or takes a Prez to the Supreme Court for a ruling, this will continue.  So, I still believe that Bush would have gone into Iraq regardless.  Again -- I'm not saying it's right, but.....

Your welcome about adding Obama!  Can we remove Bush on 1/21/09??   ;D

Mike

Mike -- I have to admit, you got me there.  It has been a hotly debated constitutional issue with regards to executive power.  And he could have invaded without asking for Congress's approval.  I guess the only thing we disagree on is whether he would have invaded if Congress had voted NO after he ASKED for the power to use military force.

Is there an example in our history of a President asking Congress for a vote to approve military actions, then Congress voting no, then the President ignoring the vote?  I don't know of one.  (Not that it hasn't happened -- I'm sure you'll correct me if I'm wrong!   :))

Offline bocker3

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Re: Regarding the Presidential race in the USA
« Reply #35 on: May 09, 2008, 07:15:59 AM »
Mike -- I have to admit, you got me there.  It has been a hotly debated constitutional issue with regards to executive power.  And he could have invaded without asking for Congress's approval.  I guess the only thing we disagree on is whether he would have invaded if Congress had voted NO after he ASKED for the power to use military force.

Is there an example in our history of a President asking Congress for a vote to approve military actions, then Congress voting no, then the President ignoring the vote?  I don't know of one.  (Not that it hasn't happened -- I'm sure you'll correct me if I'm wrong!   :))

Peter -

I do NOT know of any instance where a President got a NO from Congress (although, I haven't really looked to hard).  My sense is that a president would be very unlikely to ask if a "No" vote was expected - because if a NO was given, it would then be a far trickier endeavor for the president.  The old adage, "It's easier to ask forgiveness than permission comes to mind." comes to mind.

Cliff --

Congress did NOT vote for war.  They authorized the President to use force -- of course the President doesn't need their authorization -- he is the Commander in Chief and can use the forces as he sees fit.  He does, technically, need Congress to Declare War -- and he absolutely needs them to fund any military actions.  Of course, the Pentagon budget is big enough that a military action can be started without any discrete funding for it -- which then puts Congress into the unenviable position of withholding funding from the military while our troops are in harms way.  As a veteran of Desert Storm, I hope that they don't ever really do that -- because it would be a very horrible thing to leave soldiers hanging in the wind, as pawns in a big political showdown.

Now let me be clear -- I am not defending this war -- I think it was a stupid, unmitigated disaster on the part of the Bush Administration.  My point has been that using Hillary's vote to authorize force as evidence of her inability to make good decisions doesn't make sense -- unless you look at in hindsight.  Congress was asked for this vote in order to strengthen the hand of the Administration's negotiators and it was based on, at best - false; at worst - made up, intelligence.  Not to mention that Obama can say he would have voted, "No", but he did not have to register that vote, so we will never know what he might have done.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2008, 07:31:05 AM by bocker3 »
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Offline Peter Staley

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Re: Regarding the Presidential race in the USA
« Reply #36 on: May 09, 2008, 07:18:53 AM »
Mike -- your last post was empty, except for quoting my previous post.

Offline bocker3

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Re: Regarding the Presidential race in the USA
« Reply #37 on: May 09, 2008, 07:32:34 AM »
Mike -- your last post was empty, except for quoting my previous post.
Sorry about that -- I've fixed it now.  I should know better than to debate on only a half cup of coffee.   ::)

Mike
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Offline Dachshund

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Re: Regarding the Presidential race in the USA
« Reply #38 on: May 09, 2008, 07:50:41 AM »
The President does need Congress to use force and more importantly fund a war/action.

Bone up on your history there Cliff because while the President does need Congressional approval to declare war he does not need Congressional approval to use force. Recent examples of where a President used force without declaring war are Viet Nam and Korea. Congress did try to define the President's ability to use force in the 1973 War Powers Act.

Many Democrats in Congress did vote against giving the President the authority to use force. Many others now regret their vote because of the faulty intelligence and post 9/11 hysteria and paranoia the White House used in propagandizing a war with Iraq. You know mushroom clouds over Omaha and all that. Don't forget that both the house and senate were in Republican control at the time. They controlled the agenda and the message.

Authorization for use of Military force Against Iraq Resolution of 2002:

House:

Republicans:  AYES-215  NO-6

Democratic:   AYES-81    NO-126

Independent:  NO-1

Senate:

Republican:  AYES-48  NO-1

Democratic:  AYES-29  NO-21

Independent:  NO-1
« Last Edit: May 09, 2008, 08:08:17 AM by Dachshund »

Offline Cliff

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Re: Regarding the Presidential race in the USA
« Reply #39 on: May 09, 2008, 08:16:53 AM »
Cliff --

Congress did NOT vote for war.  They authorized the President to use force -- of course the President doesn't need their authorization -- he is the Commander in Chief and can use the forces as he sees fit.  He does, technically, need Congress to Declare War -- and he absolutely needs them to fund any military actions.  Of course, the Pentagon budget is big enough that a military action can be started without any discrete funding for it -- which then puts Congress into the unenviable position of withholding funding from the military while our troops are in harms way.  As a veteran of Desert Storm, I hope that they don't ever really do that -- because it would be a very horrible thing to leave soldiers hanging in the wind, as pawns in a big political showdown.
Ah, I understand.  I suppose it's difficult to imagine a president commiting the country to such a large scale invasion, without some sort of Congressional approval. 

I agree that it's probably an unfair association for Clinton.  While I don't like the Clinton(s), it has little to do with her Iraq votes.

Offline Peter Staley

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Re: Regarding the Presidential race in the USA
« Reply #40 on: May 09, 2008, 09:24:30 AM »
Mike -- now I strongly disagree with you.  LOL.

We DO know how Obama would have voted.  His famous Iraq War speech was delivered over a week before Congress voted (http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Barack_Obama's_Iraq_Speech).

And please don't tell me he might have felt differently if he had been a US Senator at the time.  His position at the time was NOT politically expedient.  In fact, it was very politically risky at the time.  Only 21 Democratic Senators had the courage to vote against the resolution, and they were pillared as being "weak" in the "war against terror."

Also, if you've never read the speech, it's one of the most enlightening Obama's ever given (the Wikipedia post has the full text, and thankfully, it's a short speech, and an easy, quick read).  Everything thing he predicted in that speech came true.  It reveals a remarkable level of sound judgement on the biggest foreign policy issue of recent years if not decades. 

Offline Florida69

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Re: Regarding the Presidential race in the USA
« Reply #41 on: May 09, 2008, 09:37:02 AM »
Mike -- now I strongly disagree with you.  LOL.

We DO know how Obama would have voted.  His famous Iraq War speech was delivered over a week before Congress voted (http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Barack_Obama's_Iraq_Speech).

And please don't tell me he might have felt differently if he had been a US Senator at the time.  His position at the time was NOT politically expedient.  In fact, it was very politically risky at the time.  Only 21 Democratic Senators had the courage to vote against the resolution, and they were pillared as being "weak" in the "war against terror."

Also, if you've never read the speech, it's one of the most enlightening Obama's ever given (the Wikipedia post has the full text, and thankfully, it's a short speech, and an easy, quick read).  Everything thing he predicted in that speech came true.  It reveals a remarkable level of sound judgement on the biggest foreign policy issue of recent years if not decades. 

Like some I am a Hillary supporter, Peter thanks for sharing this speech it is indeed enlighting.  Again, I hope Hillary wins and I have not decided how I will vote in November if she does not get the nomination, but I am grateful that Bush is no longer on the ballot.  D
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Offline BT65

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Re: Regarding the Presidential race in the USA
« Reply #42 on: May 09, 2008, 01:31:26 PM »
Well, to the people who don't know how they'll vote if Hillary is not on the ballot, all I can say is that if we get another four years of Bush via McCain, we're more screwed than we are right now.  (BTW, I voted for Obama in my state's primary).
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Offline bocker3

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Re: Regarding the Presidential race in the USA
« Reply #43 on: May 09, 2008, 04:09:55 PM »
Mike -- now I strongly disagree with you.  LOL.

We DO know how Obama would have voted.  His famous Iraq War speech was delivered over a week before Congress voted (http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Barack_Obama's_Iraq_Speech).

And please don't tell me he might have felt differently if he had been a US Senator at the time.  His position at the time was NOT politically expedient.  In fact, it was very politically risky at the time.  Only 21 Democratic Senators had the courage to vote against the resolution, and they were pillared as being "weak" in the "war against terror."

Also, if you've never read the speech, it's one of the most enlightening Obama's ever given (the Wikipedia post has the full text, and thankfully, it's a short speech, and an easy, quick read).  Everything thing he predicted in that speech came true.  It reveals a remarkable level of sound judgement on the biggest foreign policy issue of recent years if not decades. 

Thank you Peter -- that was a good read.  It does, indeed, appear that he read things right.  I have no doubt that his position was not one of political expediency, however we still will never know how he might have voted.  Stop rolling your eyes  ;D  -- I say that because members of Congress got to see a bunch of incorrect and, probably, fabricated intelligence that he was not privy to -- this might have added a new layer to his thoughts.  Reading his speech, it appears to be not likely -- however, I still say that you can't clearly state how someone would have reacted to something that they did not have to react to (in this case, "the vote").

Of course, the cynic in me also believes that ALL politicians in this country are beholden to political expediency if they wish to continue -- that includes Clinton, McCain and Obama.  The American public says they want "the truth" but many (most) don't want anything to impact them in a negative way -- so begging for votes does rely, to some degree, on feeling the temperature out there and addressing it properly.

At the end of the day -- I believe it is time for Hillary to concede.  I have every intention of giving my support and my $$ to the Obama campaign.  He MUST prevail against McCain.

Thanks for the debate -- I like these exchanges -- civil and open minded -- even if there is disagreement.

Mike
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Offline Peter Staley

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Re: Regarding the Presidential race in the USA
« Reply #44 on: May 09, 2008, 04:12:46 PM »
Thanks for the debate -- I like these exchanges -- civil and open minded -- even if there is disagreement.

Me too!  Thanks!

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Regarding the Presidential race in the USA
« Reply #45 on: May 09, 2008, 04:21:58 PM »

Now, I have to touch on the oft-mentioned criticism of Hillary's "vote for war".  First, the vote was to authorize the use of force because Bush said it would be used to strengthen our negotiating position - thus lessening the likelihood of needing to use force. 

OH come ON!  EVERYONE knew what that vote was for.  Don't be as disingenuous as Hillary has been.
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Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Regarding the Presidential race in the USA
« Reply #46 on: May 09, 2008, 04:27:16 PM »
Well, to the people who don't know how they'll vote if Hillary is not on the ballot, all I can say is that if we get another four years of Bush via McCain, we're more screwed than we are right now.  (BTW, I voted for Obama in my state's primary).

Yeah, I find it -- uh, STRANGE -- that some folks here despise Obama so much that they question if they'll vote for him or McCain come November.  Really makes me scratch my head.

ONWARD TO TEHRAN I SAY!  (is that what you folks really want?)
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Offline StrongGuy

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Re: Regarding the Presidential race in the USA
« Reply #47 on: May 09, 2008, 04:48:10 PM »
I'm definitely not a fan of Obama and don't care for him much but I will definitely vote for him cause God knows McCain would be a nightmare.

I do think Obama is in for a rough election, though. This primary has brought out the worst in people. I know a lot of people who are staunch Hillary supporters (my ex-boyfriend especially)  and Democrats who shock me in their insistence and anger at Obama and the fact that they will not vote for him. Same would be true the other way around I'm sure but I think this whole process has done more harm than good.

Let's just hope for a Democrat...but I'm not confident. We have a knack for blowing elections.

Mikey :)




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Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Regarding the Presidential race in the USA
« Reply #48 on: May 09, 2008, 05:00:26 PM »
but I think this whole process has done more harm than good.

How do you figure?

Dem enrollment is WAY up due to the extended primary.
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Offline sacinsc

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Re: Regarding the Presidential race in the USA
« Reply #49 on: May 09, 2008, 09:34:34 PM »
OK couple things I have done while looking through this ...

1. The desire to have a great orator to inspire I love. My fear though is someone who is all talk, can't get things done. A President needs to be able to create new ideas, but have the experience to be able to get them done. To have the respect from the peers to get the job done.

2. I hate to say it but all the things listed that Obama has done...well those are things he has voted Aye for. He really has introduced no legislation that has made a difference. He may have co-sponsored a bill, but he has never written one that made it through Congress. This is not saying he hasn't tried, but as a Civics teacher I can tell you that is something that is very difficult to do, and usually not something done with under 2 years of experience.

3. The vote for the war, well yes it was a vote to use force, but it was really done after the fact. The War Powers Act states that Congress must give permission to keep the forces there. Passed to prevent another Vietnam, that needs to be revamped evidently. The vote in this case was given with a bunch of horrible information meant to sway Congress. I would say I might vote in favor of it to with the information that was presented to me the way it was presented to Congress. Even the most liberal of the House and Senate authorized it. When you are lied to and given facts to support the lie....can you really blame Clinton?

4. The patriotism card has been way overplayed with this war. Remove funding and you are a communist. And the people by it.

5. I honestly think all 3 candidates offer change. Anything is better that W the dumbass. McCain I honestly believe will become the maverick again. I think he personally will run an honest campaign, but the evil Republican party will run the usual Karl Rove campaign. Is Obama ready for that one? Guess we will see. I have no doubt he will be the nominee. But I am honestly nervous about what kind of president he will be. Is he ready for the national spot light or will foreign countries use and abuse his good intentions?

I can't commit to voting for him this fall. I don't know about voting for McCain either. Looking like I might throw my vote away on a 3rd party. But I will help Virginia become BLUE with Mark Warner taking John Warners spot in the Senate! That is one vote I will be proud to cast!

Gotta say to that as a Civics teacher and American I love the debate here! I am so proud of all of you! : ) Makes me proud to know there are people out there that really care!

Matt
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January 08 - CD4 446 VL <48 undetectable!
April 08 - CD4 554 VL <48 undetectable!
July 08 - CD4 666 VL <48 undetectable! Hporay...I have devil CD4's

 


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