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Author Topic: Regarding the Presidential race in the USA  (Read 9170 times)

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Offline david25luvit

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Regarding the Presidential race in the USA
« on: May 04, 2008, 02:53:32 PM »
I think I can safely say that the political race for President this year has a lot of us American voters
uneasy....  Regardless of whether you're a Republican or a Democrat....the choice of candidates leaves
a lot to be desired.  Of the three candidates...Clinton, Obama or McCain....which is more HIV friendly?

I don't have a clue....  I think a Democrat would be more "concerned" about us HIV folks but McCain
is making all the right noises too.  Any suggestions as to whom I should vote for in November???

(if this post is not acceptable in this section...I'm assuming Ann or somebody will move it)
« Last Edit: May 04, 2008, 02:55:04 PM by david25luvit »
In Memory of
Raymond David McRae III
Nov. 25, 1972- Oct. 15, 2004
I miss him terribly..........

Offline Miss Philicia

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"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline david25luvit

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Re: Regarding the Presidential race in the USA
« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2008, 03:25:31 PM »
Sorry Philly.........I stand corrected.  I also received a private message and they had some good things to say about
Obama's views on HIV.  Thanks for the heads up on McCain.  So much for making all the right noises.  Indeed he is
a Reagan-nite.

In Memory of
Raymond David McRae III
Nov. 25, 1972- Oct. 15, 2004
I miss him terribly..........

Offline Oceanbeach

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Re: Regarding the Presidential race in the USA
« Reply #3 on: May 05, 2008, 03:39:05 AM »
I was kind of hoping to vote for Senator Clinton.  During the RWCA modernization, she refused to support early legislation because, she refused to support a bill which would put 100,000 of her people in jeopardy  ;D  Have the best day
Michael

[attachment deleted by admin]

Offline aliveinla

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Re: Regarding the Presidential race in the USA
« Reply #4 on: May 05, 2008, 10:10:12 PM »
i don't mind either one of the two democratics, but the longer they fight, the less I like either of them. But again, I will vote any of them who becomes the candidate. Never Mccain. 100 years in Iraq? Does he have any brain?
4/24/07: Last tested Neg
1/22/08: First tested Poz
1/30/08: CD4 393; 28%; VL: 44k
3/18/08: CD4 218; 26%; VL: 222K
4/24/08: CD4 402; 26%; VL: lab forgot
7/22/08: CD4 405; 25%; VL: 6,780
10/15/08: CD4 340, 26%; VL: N/A
2/4/09: CD4 394, 26%; VL: N/A
Jun 09: CD4 300, 25%; VL: 4000
Oct 09: CD4 324, 23%, VL: 10K
11/22/09: started Atripla
11/20/11: CD4 405; VL: UD

Offline BT65

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Re: Regarding the Presidential race in the USA
« Reply #5 on: May 05, 2008, 10:16:06 PM »
Tomorrow is my state's primary (Indiana).  I'll be out voting early.  BTW, I'm voting for Obama.
I've never killed anyone, but I frequently get satisfaction reading the obituary notices.-Clarence Darrow

Offline BlueMoon

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Re: Regarding the Presidential race in the USA
« Reply #6 on: May 05, 2008, 10:24:42 PM »
I have the impression that Hillary is the most HIV-friendly, but I haven't researched that in any depth.  It's unlikely that McCain will be my choice come November.
...................VL.....CD4.....%
-----------------------------------------
08/10-- ......<40.....290.....42
05/10-- ......<48.....290.....46
02/10-- ......<48.....481.....44
10/09-- ......<48.....277.....46
07/09-- ......<48.....300.....38
05/09-- ........51.....449.....39
03/09-- Added Isentress
02/09-- ........65.....299.....34
11/08-- ........62.....242.....40
08/08-- ........66.....212.....29
05/08-- ......202.....217.....27
03/08-- ....5210.....187.....21
02/08-- Began Truvada/Reyataz/Norvir
12/07-- 273,000.....157.....22
11/07-- 229,000.....209.....22
10/07-- Diagnosis

It's a complex world.

Offline Desertguy

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Re: Regarding the Presidential race in the USA
« Reply #7 on: May 05, 2008, 11:22:47 PM »
I would agree that Hill is more HIV friendly.  As her husband sure was easyu in trying to bring it home to her.

Sorry had to get that off my chest

Offline Desertguy

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Re: Regarding the Presidential race in the USA
« Reply #8 on: May 05, 2008, 11:24:27 PM »
ANd yea today is Cinco De Mayo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!       Have a shot of Tequila on me lets celebrate.  I wonder how many people know what Cinco De Mayo is for.?????

Offline MitchMiller

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Re: Regarding the Presidential race in the USA
« Reply #9 on: May 06, 2008, 01:57:05 AM »
I think it all comes down to who offers the best overall health care coverage.  I think Hillary is the most realistic in realizing that everyone must be in the insured pool to help spread the risk.  This is basically how it's done in other countries.  I like McCain's idea to get the employer out of the health care coverage game.  That would help eliminate discrimination and promote job mobility among those w/HIV that get their insurance from their employer.  Many HIV+ folks feel stuck in their jobs because they don't want to risk losing their insurance.  The current system also makes in difficult for HIV+ folks to try to start their own business.
Both Obama and Hillary have moved closer to one another as both are calling for a federal insurance program for the uninsurable.  The problem here would be cost.  All the sickest of the population would be thrown into this plan. 
None of them go far enough to admit that we need either a single payer, tax funded system or a heavily regulated insurance industry where insurance co.'s function as not-for-profit.
Personally I doubt anything substantial will be done about health care by any of them.  I even doubt there will be a Federal program for the uninsurable set up.  More likely, the Feds will just push it off onto the states as a mandate, and provide funding that must be part of the annually approved budget.  The premiums will still be sky high (they are nearly $3000/month in CA)... just wait and see... maybe I'm just too old to be idealistic.

Offline Ann

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Re: Regarding the Presidential race in the USA
« Reply #10 on: May 06, 2008, 06:52:57 AM »
ANd yea today is Cinco De Mayo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!       Have a shot of Tequila on me lets celebrate.  I wonder how many people know what Cinco De Mayo is for.?????

It is my understanding that the purpose of Cinco De Mayo is to prevent Cuarto De Mayo and Sexto De Mayo from bumping into each other. ;D

Ann
Condoms are a girl's best friend

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"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline Gary85741

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Re: Regarding the Presidential race in the USA
« Reply #11 on: May 06, 2008, 10:58:18 AM »

Hillary (and even John McCain) wish to repeal the Federal gas tax during the summer to give us some degree of relief from the crushing gasoline prices.  Mr. Obama is against doing so and feels it is a "political gimmick."  Maybe he should tell that to people who have to cut back on groceries or other mandated expenses in order to continue buying gas in order to get to work, medical appointments, etc. 

Though the gas prices are frustrating to me, I am lucky that I can afford it.  But I have empathy for those who cannot, and it's interesting to see who in the political arena likewise has empathy for those worse off than they, and who (Mr. Obama) does not.  Hillary got my vote in February's Arizona primary and I wish her the best as we approach the finish line.

Gary
Poz since '89. 
Current regimen: Rescriptor, Emtriva, Kaletra, Invirase, Acyclovir, Lisinopril, Lipitor, Prilosec, Valium, Testim, Nandrolone, Loperamidr, Marinol.

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Regarding the Presidential race in the USA
« Reply #12 on: May 06, 2008, 11:39:11 AM »
source

Gas tax holiday would cost state $126 million


OLYMPIA -- The gas tax holiday proposed by Sens. John McCain and Hillary Clinton would save the typical Washington driver $28 this year but cost the state about $126 million in lost highway money and more than 4,300 highway-related jobs, according to a recent report.

With summer vacation season and the presidential election nearing, presidential candidates McCain and Clinton suggest a temporary repeal of the federal gas tax as a way to boost the economy and relieve part of the strain from skyrocketing prices.

Sen. Barack Obama, the front-runner for the Democratic nomination, opposes the plan, and the issue has become prominent in the run-up to Tuesday's presidential primaries in North Carolina and Indiana.

Because of the high cost associated with the proposed tax holiday, several Washington state politicians -- including some Clinton and McCain supporters -- are against it.
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline david25luvit

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Re: Regarding the Presidential race in the USA
« Reply #13 on: May 06, 2008, 12:59:35 PM »
Well I like a lot of things Hillary has to say but then I get the impression she'd say anything to get elected....as most politicians would.
However her attacks on Obama...most of them senseless...turned me off to her.   As far as being HIV and looking at their track records...
I could NEVER vote for McCain....   Unless something changes to sway my vote......Obama is my guy this November.


        (Not sure what this has to do with tequila and Cinco di Mayo Day but what do I know..........???)



modified to add this tidbit from an Illinois resident:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 But what I can tell you is that our gov't and policy people used to work with Obama in the IL state senate, they currently work with him as our IL senator and consider him an ally on HIV issues.  Our VP of Policy who is openly HIV+ is an Obama delegate.  And Obama is a donor to our organization.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------




« Last Edit: May 06, 2008, 01:04:24 PM by david25luvit »
In Memory of
Raymond David McRae III
Nov. 25, 1972- Oct. 15, 2004
I miss him terribly..........

Offline pozattitude

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    • to find out more about me....
Re: Regarding the Presidential race in the USA
« Reply #14 on: May 06, 2008, 01:37:19 PM »
vote Democrat, no matter who gets the nomination.
McCain is an asshole in my opinion and this is why:

Voted against MLK holiday in 1983; now calls that a mistake. (Apr 2008)
Don't ask, don't tell is working; don't tamper with it. (Jun 2007
Supports repealing Roe v. Wade. (May 2007)
Voted YES on defining unborn child as eligible for SCHIP. (Mar 2008)
Voted YES on barring HHS grants to organizations that perform abortions. (Oct 2007)
Voted YES on recommending Constitutional ban on flag desecration. (Jun 2006)
Voted NO on adding sexual orientation to definition of hate crimes. (Jun 2002)
Voted YES on loosening restrictions on cell phone wiretapping. (Oct 2001)
Voted NO on expanding hate crimes to include sexual orientation. (Jun 2000)
Voted YES on prohibiting same-sex marriage. (Sep 1996)
Voted NO on prohibiting job discrimination by sexual orientation. (Sep 1996)
Voted YES on Amendment to prohibit flag burning. (Dec 1995)
Voted YES on banning affirmative action hiring with federal funds. (Jul 1995)
Rated 0% by the ACLU, indicating an anti-civil rights voting record. (Dec 2002)
Rated 33% by the HRC, indicating a mixed record on gay rights. (Dec 2006)
Rated 7% by the NAACP, indicating an anti-affirmative-action stance. (Dec 2006)
Rated 25% by APHA, indicating a anti-public health voting record. (Dec 2003)

and....Graduated 5th from bottom of Naval Academy class...Does anyone want another low IQ dumb ass in the White House?

I'm not going to defend Hillary, but if she wins the nomination i'll support her, but my vote went to Obama.

 



POSITIVE PEDALERS... We are a group of people living with HIV/AIDS, eliminating stigma through our positive public example.

Offline Peter Staley

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Re: Regarding the Presidential race in the USA
« Reply #15 on: May 06, 2008, 01:43:42 PM »

Hillary (and even John McCain) wish to repeal the Federal gas tax during the summer to give us some degree of relief from the crushing gasoline prices.  Mr. Obama is against doing so and feels it is a "political gimmick."  Maybe he should tell that to people who have to cut back on groceries or other mandated expenses in order to continue buying gas in order to get to work, medical appointments, etc. 


Gary -- I respectfully disagree.  I think Obama and most economists consider it a gimmick because it won't do the one thing you think Hillary is trying to do -- save some folks some money.  Various states have tried gas tax holidays, and there's little evidence any of them worked (i.e. saved drivers money).  There are a couple of reasons for this.  There are various players that bring gasoline to the market, starting with the oil companies, and ending with the gas station owners (with various processing & delivery middlemen in between).  Absent federal price controls, there is nothing from keeping any of these players for maintaining or increasing their prices after the feds stop taking their cut (the gas tax), and pocketing the difference.

An even bigger threat to any holiday's effectiveness is the oil market itself.  Crude oil is traded on various futures exchanges, and like any commodity, its price is not only based on current supply and demand, but anticipated future supply and demand.  Even before a tax holiday begins, traders will anticipate higher demand, and the price of crude oil will rise (it rose $3 yesterday, and another $3 today, to $122/barrel).  Gas prices have recently gone up 10 cents a week, so wiping out the 18.4 cent savings from a federal gas tax holiday could happen with very little crude oil market price pressure -- about $5 a barrel would do the trick.

Just my two cents.  I'm for Obama, but some of my best friends are for Clinton.  I'm just glad we all care.

Peter

Offline Oceanbeach

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Re: Regarding the Presidential race in the USA
« Reply #16 on: May 06, 2008, 02:43:47 PM »
It is my understanding that the purpose of Cinco De Mayo is to prevent Cuarto De Mayo and Sexto De Mayo from bumping into each other. ;D

Ann


Hey Ann,

I have a perfectly good bottle of Cuervo 1800 which will keep Cuarto and Sexto from running into each other but, there are no guarantees on what I may run into today.  ;D ;D ;D Have the best day
Michael

Offline Assurbanipal

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Re: Regarding the Presidential race in the USA
« Reply #17 on: May 06, 2008, 02:48:52 PM »
I'm a Hillary supporter and voted for her -- but I'm starting to move to the Hillary 2016 camp   :)

Things like the gas tax gimmick have me wondering.  In addition to the reaction of oil markets pricing in demand changes as per above there's also (as I believe the Obama camp has pointed out) ways to help people that don't require them to use gas to get the help.  I'd prefer that we give $50 bucks to everyone who needs a hand than that we gave $30 bucks of free gas to only those who drive.  It seems to me to be a lot greener and help more people to give a tax rebate, than it is to lower a gas tax.

Regards
A
5/06 VL 1M+, CD4 22, 5% , pneumonia, thrush -- O2 support 2 months, 6/06 +Kaletra/Truvada
9/06 VL 3959 CD4 297 13.5% 12/06 VL <400 CD4 350 15.2% +Pravachol
2007 VL<400, 70, 50 CD4 408-729 16.0% -19.7%
2008 VL UD CD4 468 - 538 16.7% - 24.6% Osteoporosis 11/08 doubled Pravachol, +Calcium/D
02/09 VL 100 CD4 616 23.7% 03/09 VL 130 5/09 VL 100 CD4 540 28.4% +Actonel (osteoporosis) 7/09 VL 130
8/09  new regimen Isentress/Epzicom 9/09 VL UD CD4 621 32.7% 11/09 VL UD CD4 607 26.4% swap Isentress for Prezista/Norvir 12/09 (liver and muscle issues) VL 50
2010 VL UD CD4 573-680 26.1% - 30.9% 12/10 VL 20
2011 VL UD-20 CD4 568-673 24.7%-30.6%
2012 VL UD swap Prezista/Norvir for Reyataz drop statin CD4 768-828 26.7%-30.7%

Offline Oceanbeach

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Re: Regarding the Presidential race in the USA
« Reply #18 on: May 06, 2008, 04:08:37 PM »
I just went back to the "Can't decide who to vote for" survey posted by Jefferyj in Off Topic last January. 

Having completed the survey again, Barrack Obama as the candidate with 87% similarity so I went a little deeper to find Ralph Nader at 80%, Mike Gravel at 80%, Hillary Clinton at 77% and John McCain at 63%.

I want to vote for Hillary Clinton but will vote for Barrack Obama  ;D  Have the best day
Michael

Offline pinkadam

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Re: Regarding the Presidential race in the USA
« Reply #19 on: May 06, 2008, 09:03:19 PM »
I think I can safely say that the political race for President this year has a lot of us American voters
uneasy....  Regardless of whether you're a Republican or a Democrat....the choice of candidates leaves
a lot to be desired.  Of the three candidates...Clinton, Obama or McCain....which is more HIV friendly?

I don't have a clue....  I think a Democrat would be more "concerned" about us HIV folks but McCain
is making all the right noises too.  Any suggestions as to whom I should vote for in November???

(if this post is not acceptable in this section...I'm assuming Ann or somebody will move it)

I really dont like the policies of all the three candidates. None of them has a good plan for the universal healthcare.
I hate to see one more rich person getting into white house and only care for rich people.
Republicans always care for rich people so Mccain is out of the question. I used to like Hillary but her latest stunts are making her look bad. In my opinion she is rich too (Clintons made more than 100 million dollors after they came out of white house). This will only leave Obama. I guess i still have to watch more.

Offline sacinsc

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Re: Regarding the Presidential race in the USA
« Reply #20 on: May 07, 2008, 01:29:29 AM »
Well, after being gone from here for a couple weeks, this thread got me posting again. My biggest problem with Obama is there is no record to go on. His limited federal government experience has proved fruitless, he has gotten nothing passed in the Senate, has no bills turned into laws, has been apart of no coalitions to break dead lock. He has only been there a couple years, and while he makes great speeches, they are just that speeches. Where is the real policy? There is no proof about what he really believes and values. And I hate to bring this dead horse up, he has a poor sense of judgement when it comes to picking friends.

Clinton on the other hand, well I know what I am getting. There is a record there. She has proven that she wants universal healthcare in 1993. She has been in the Senate and been part of gridlock defusion. Yeah her latest attacks are a little off, and Bill seems to be going off the deep in, but all in all I know where she stands.

This is my big problem. Who do I trust? Do I gamble in the fall? Do I go with what I know? As for McCain, there are some interesting things about him. He is a maverick no doubt. Something though tells me that all this rhetoric he is spilling out right now will not be the true way he would run his administration if elected. In 2000, he came out and said he was prochoice. He has had to change his tune though to get the nomination. Granted he is a warmonger and will keep us in Iraq. But again, I know what I am getting.

Obama talks a great game, but can he back it up? What exactly are his real policies? There isn't a record to go on. Saying and doing are two different things.

So I sit and watch CNN and wait to see what happens. After the Democratic Convention, I will make up my mind in the Fall once both sides move back towards the middle. Right now it is pandering to the core of the party. Democrats are singing ultra liberal crap and Republicans are holding the Bible and screaming I am a Conservative like Reagan (who i believe 100% was one of the worst Presidents ever....not as bad as Bush, but who was?) Anyway, I voted for Clinton in the DC primary....like my vote counted in the Ultra Liberal and predominately African-American city. Obama's core supporters.

So my vote is.....wait and see when they go for the independent voter's like me!
March 07 - Negative
May 07 - Exposed
June 07 - Seroconversion
September 07 - CD4 402 VL 118000 25%
October 07 -     CD4 294 VL 124000 22%
November 07 - Norvir, Triuvada and Reyataz
December 07 -  CD4 355 VL  550 .... guess the meds are working.
January 08 - CD4 446 VL <48 undetectable!
April 08 - CD4 554 VL <48 undetectable!
July 08 - CD4 666 VL <48 undetectable! Hporay...I have devil CD4's

Offline Okealyshire

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Re: Regarding the Presidential race in the USA
« Reply #21 on: May 08, 2008, 02:18:56 AM »
while he makes great speeches, they are just that speeches

I've been thinking lately about presidential power, the necessity of experience, and the allure of oratorical prowess. We all like to think that presidents possess heroic abilities to affect drastic change in individual lives. Rarely, though, has it happened this way. Like it or not, Congress still wields more power. Also, like it or not, Congress moves (slowly, too slowly) in the direction of the people. Whence do the people obtain direction? A strong president, with bold ideas, and the fluency to express them with nuance, compassion, and detail.

America doesn't need a president who, like some cubicle-ensconsed engineer, will simply tinker with the inner workings of our political landscape (that's what a competent staff is for). America needs an obvious and articulate grand orator, indeed someone who can stand on the national soapbox and motivate the people (that's us) to finally start giving a damn. Eventually, if only to save their own careers, members of Congress will sense the people's direction, and enact legislation to implement the policies put forth by the president.

Wishful thinking, perhaps, but that's my rationale for pushing the Obama button on my voting machine. Now if only I can trust the software (the security of which I seriously doubt -- and that's what I do for a living).

Offline LordBerners

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Re: Regarding the Presidential race in the USA
« Reply #22 on: May 08, 2008, 07:25:38 AM »
Of course what america 'needs' (though it is too late) is an enormous dose of socialism (social democracy) so that we can live as well as our smarter, braver brethren in Europe, who stand up for themselves. 

People are excited about Obama because he is sort of a bit closer to a real liberal than the fake Democrats we've had for decades.  I hate to break it to you folks, but that won't be nearly enough.
Please, just call me Berners.. or Baron.

Offline BT65

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Re: Regarding the Presidential race in the USA
« Reply #23 on: May 08, 2008, 07:29:39 AM »
Okealyshire, I couldn't have said it better.  That's why on Tuesday, in my state's primary, Obama had my vote.
I've never killed anyone, but I frequently get satisfaction reading the obituary notices.-Clarence Darrow

Offline Peter Staley

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Re: Regarding the Presidential race in the USA
« Reply #24 on: May 08, 2008, 09:28:08 AM »
Well, after being gone from here for a couple weeks, this thread got me posting again. My biggest problem with Obama is there is no record to go on. His limited federal government experience has proved fruitless, he has gotten nothing passed in the Senate, has no bills turned into laws, has been apart of no coalitions to break dead lock. He has only been there a couple years, and while he makes great speeches, they are just that speeches. Where is the real policy? There is no proof about what he really believes and values. And I hate to bring this dead horse up, he has a poor sense of judgement when it comes to picking friends.

sacinsc -- dig a little deeper, and you'll find he's done plenty in the Senate (as much, if not more, than Clinton, and none of the really stupid fuck-ups, like voting for war approval).

Obama has passed several important laws in the Senate, including legislation to prevent terrorists from obtaining WMDs, increasing U.S. investment in alternative energy, improving services for our troops and veterans, and major ethics reform reining in lobbyists. 

If you want to read a much more complete and detailed description, I've attached a full list of his Senate accomplishments from his website.  It's worth a read, and pretty impressive.

Peter

[attachment deleted by admin]

Offline danpoz

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Re: Regarding the Presidential race in the USA
« Reply #25 on: May 08, 2008, 10:15:13 AM »
I'm just glad we all care.

I'm with Peter on this one, I don't care for whom you vote as long as you vote.  Sens. Clinton and Obama have such similar stances on so many issues I think whomever gets the nomination will be a huge step in the right, albeit Left, direction.  That being said, I'm not sure anyone who is elected could screw things up as badly as #43 has; but do we really want to give McCain the chance?
12/1/07 HIV-
3/17/08 HIV+, CD4 384, VL 39966
4/4/08 Started Atripla
7/14/08  CD4 343, VL Undetectable :-)


Offline Robert

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Re: Regarding the Presidential race in the USA
« Reply #26 on: May 08, 2008, 11:01:42 AM »
I voted for Obama.  I'm truly encouraged by him.  He gives me hope.

But so does Hillary.  Last summer I was very anti-Hillary.  But now so much anymore.  In fact, when she doesn't win I feel bad for her.  Actually I feel sorry for her.  Why?  I just hate that feeling.

robert
..........

Offline woodshere

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Re: Regarding the Presidential race in the USA
« Reply #27 on: May 08, 2008, 11:07:48 AM »
Well I am a HUGE HUGE Hillary supporter and have very little desire to see anyone else win, so I am very disappointed she won't be our nominee. I must confess that while I would NEVER vote for a Republican I was considering investigating other party nominees.  Kind of like since I didn't get my way I am going to pick up my toys and go home.  However, that would pretty much be a wasted vote and if enough of us let our disappointment determine how we vote then we increase the chance of a President McCain.  If Hillary is still running May 20th when KY votes I will cast my vote for her.  However in the fall I will be happy to vote for Obama.

.... but do we really want to give McCain the chance?

That pretty much set my mind on the right track.  Thanks danpoz.
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Offline bocker3

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Re: Regarding the Presidential race in the USA
« Reply #28 on: May 08, 2008, 04:58:11 PM »
I am a big Hillary fan -- for a whole number of reasons -- but I think the time has come for her to stop.  She isn't going to get the nomination.  Her last chance was to score a surprise win in NC -- she did not and her tight victory in IN was not enough to save her campaign.  I still believe she would be a more formidable candidate in the general election, but she and Obama are really not that far apart on most issues.  McCain must not win -- I can't take 4 more years of Bush.

Now, I have to touch on the oft-mentioned criticism of Hillary's "vote for war".  First, the vote was to authorize the use of force because Bush said it would be used to strengthen our negotiating position - thus lessening the likelihood of needing to use force.  Should she (and the majority of that Congress) have been worried that Bush was lying?  Should she (and the rest) have questioned the "intelligence" that was being presented?  In hindsight, absolutely -- but Monday morning quarterbacking is always easy - but only useful in learning lessons, not in placing blame.  How she voted on that makes no difference to me because the vote, ultimately, was meaningless.  Bush was going to attack Iraq regardless of what Congress authorized.
Now if she, like McCain, was still all gung-ho for the war, we'd have a different conversation.

Mike

P.S.  Can someone add Obama to the spell check -- I suspect we will be typing his name alot in the coming years.
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Offline Peter Staley

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Re: Regarding the Presidential race in the USA
« Reply #29 on: May 08, 2008, 06:38:22 PM »
Mike -- Bush could not have gone to war without the congressional vote -- that's why he asked for the vote.

Under the United States Constitution, war powers are divided and not equal. Congress has the power to declare war and raise and support the armed forces, and control the funding of the war (Article I, Section 8 ), while the President is Commander in Chief (Article II, Section 2).

In addition, there's the War Powers Resolution.  The War Powers Act of 1973 (Pub.L. 93-148), also referred to as the War Powers Resolution, is a resolution of Congress that stated that the President can send troops into action abroad only by authorization of Congress or if America is already under attack or serious threat. The War Powers Act requires that the president notify Congress within 48 hours of committing troops to military action and forbids troops from remaining for more than 90 days without a declaration of war.

Thanks for reminding me to add Obama to our spell checker!

Peter

Offline pinkadam

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Re: Regarding the Presidential race in the USA
« Reply #30 on: May 08, 2008, 07:44:40 PM »
Well, after being gone from here for a couple weeks, this thread got me posting again. My biggest problem with Obama is there is no record to go on. His limited federal government experience has proved fruitless, he has gotten nothing passed in the Senate, has no bills turned into laws, has been apart of no coalitions to break dead lock. He has only been there a couple years, and while he makes great speeches, they are just that speeches. Where is the real policy? There is no proof about what he really believes and values. And I hate to bring this dead horse up, he has a poor sense of judgement when it comes to picking friends.

Clinton on the other hand, well I know what I am getting. There is a record there. She has proven that she wants universal healthcare in 1993. She has been in the Senate and been part of gridlock defusion. Yeah her latest attacks are a little off, and Bill seems to be going off the deep in, but all in all I know where she stands.

This is my big problem. Who do I trust? Do I gamble in the fall? Do I go with what I know? As for McCain, there are some interesting things about him. He is a maverick no doubt. Something though tells me that all this rhetoric he is spilling out right now will not be the true way he would run his administration if elected. In 2000, he came out and said he was prochoice. He has had to change his tune though to get the nomination. Granted he is a warmonger and will keep us in Iraq. But again, I know what I am getting.

Obama talks a great game, but can he back it up? What exactly are his real policies? There isn't a record to go on. Saying and doing are two different things.

So I sit and watch CNN and wait to see what happens. After the Democratic Convention, I will make up my mind in the Fall once both sides move back towards the middle. Right now it is pandering to the core of the party. Democrats are singing ultra liberal crap and Republicans are holding the Bible and screaming I am a Conservative like Reagan (who i believe 100% was one of the worst Presidents ever....not as bad as Bush, but who was?) Anyway, I voted for Clinton in the DC primary....like my vote counted in the Ultra Liberal and predominately African-American city. Obama's core supporters.

So my vote is.....wait and see when they go for the independent voter's like me!
Hello My Friend , i used to think experience counts alot. G. Bush has lot of experience before he came to DC and all he did is weeken this country and waged a nasty war which is unethical. Hillary was next to her husband while her husband is the AK governor and she is next to her husband in the white house and then she became a senator and served NY. With all the experience she got , she voted in favour to the war in IRAQ !!!! I wonder how experience made her any different than a greedy Bush family !!!!

Offline bocker3

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Re: Regarding the Presidential race in the USA
« Reply #31 on: May 08, 2008, 08:37:39 PM »
Mike -- Bush could not have gone to war without the congressional vote -- that's why he asked for the vote.

Under the United States Constitution, war powers are divided and not equal. Congress has the power to declare war and raise and support the armed forces, and control the funding of the war (Article I, Section 8 ), while the President is Commander in Chief (Article II, Section 2).

In addition, there's the War Powers Resolution.  The War Powers Act of 1973 (Pub.L. 93-148), also referred to as the War Powers Resolution, is a resolution of Congress that stated that the President can send troops into action abroad only by authorization of Congress or if America is already under attack or serious threat. The War Powers Act requires that the president notify Congress within 48 hours of committing troops to military action and forbids troops from remaining for more than 90 days without a declaration of war.

Thanks for reminding me to add Obama to our spell checker!

Peter

Peter --

I know about the Constitutional Powers -- but when was the last time that Congress declared war?  1941!  Presidents have and will use force without official Congressional approval (Grenada, Panama, Haiti, Bay of Pigs).  I'm not saying that is right, but it is a fact.  Until some Congress decides to either withhold funding (which would be "spun" to look like they weren't supporting the troops in harms way) or takes a Prez to the Supreme Court for a ruling, this will continue.  So, I still believe that Bush would have gone into Iraq regardless.  Again -- I'm not saying it's right, but.....

Your welcome about adding Obama!  Can we remove Bush on 1/21/09??   ;D

Mike
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Offline bocker3

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Re: Regarding the Presidential race in the USA
« Reply #32 on: May 08, 2008, 08:40:12 PM »
Hello My Friend , i used to think experience counts alot. G. Bush has lot of experience before he came to DC and all he did is weeken this country and waged a nasty war which is unethical. Hillary was next to her husband while her husband is the AK governor and she is next to her husband in the white house and then she became a senator and served NY. With all the experience she got , she voted in favour to the war in IRAQ !!!! I wonder how experience made her any different than a greedy Bush family !!!!

What experience did Bush have?  How to avoid serving in a war (but he knew how to start one)?  How to run a baseball team?  How to run an oil company?
Except for a less than stellar turn as the Gov of Texas -- he defeated 1 candidate with far more experience and was given the White House by the Supreme Court over someone else with far more experience.

Mike
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Offline Cliff

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Re: Regarding the Presidential race in the USA
« Reply #33 on: May 09, 2008, 04:43:01 AM »
Peter --

I know about the Constitutional Powers -- but when was the last time that Congress declared war?  1941!  Presidents have and will use force without official Congressional approval (Grenada, Panama, Haiti, Bay of Pigs).  I'm not saying that is right, but it is a fact.  Until some Congress decides to either withhold funding (which would be "spun" to look like they weren't supporting the troops in harms way) or takes a Prez to the Supreme Court for a ruling, this will continue.  So, I still believe that Bush would have gone into Iraq regardless.  Again -- I'm not saying it's right, but.....
The President does need Congress to use force and more importantly fund a war/action.

I think it's a cop out to blame only Bush for the war in Iraq.  If Congress didn't want this war, there wouldn't be one.  It was Congress that authorized the use of force!  It was Congress that authorized the President to enforce the UN resolutions.  Those votes were declarations of war, in everything but the name!  Plus, how many times has Congress voted to issue a blank check to fund the war?

Bush couldn't and wouldn't have gone to war if Congress was dead set against it!
« Last Edit: May 09, 2008, 07:10:42 AM by Cliff »

Offline Peter Staley

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Re: Regarding the Presidential race in the USA
« Reply #34 on: May 09, 2008, 06:38:29 AM »
Peter --

I know about the Constitutional Powers -- but when was the last time that Congress declared war?  1941!  Presidents have and will use force without official Congressional approval (Grenada, Panama, Haiti, Bay of Pigs).  I'm not saying that is right, but it is a fact.  Until some Congress decides to either withhold funding (which would be "spun" to look like they weren't supporting the troops in harms way) or takes a Prez to the Supreme Court for a ruling, this will continue.  So, I still believe that Bush would have gone into Iraq regardless.  Again -- I'm not saying it's right, but.....

Your welcome about adding Obama!  Can we remove Bush on 1/21/09??   ;D

Mike

Mike -- I have to admit, you got me there.  It has been a hotly debated constitutional issue with regards to executive power.  And he could have invaded without asking for Congress's approval.  I guess the only thing we disagree on is whether he would have invaded if Congress had voted NO after he ASKED for the power to use military force.

Is there an example in our history of a President asking Congress for a vote to approve military actions, then Congress voting no, then the President ignoring the vote?  I don't know of one.  (Not that it hasn't happened -- I'm sure you'll correct me if I'm wrong!   :))

Offline bocker3

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Re: Regarding the Presidential race in the USA
« Reply #35 on: May 09, 2008, 07:15:59 AM »
Mike -- I have to admit, you got me there.  It has been a hotly debated constitutional issue with regards to executive power.  And he could have invaded without asking for Congress's approval.  I guess the only thing we disagree on is whether he would have invaded if Congress had voted NO after he ASKED for the power to use military force.

Is there an example in our history of a President asking Congress for a vote to approve military actions, then Congress voting no, then the President ignoring the vote?  I don't know of one.  (Not that it hasn't happened -- I'm sure you'll correct me if I'm wrong!   :))

Peter -

I do NOT know of any instance where a President got a NO from Congress (although, I haven't really looked to hard).  My sense is that a president would be very unlikely to ask if a "No" vote was expected - because if a NO was given, it would then be a far trickier endeavor for the president.  The old adage, "It's easier to ask forgiveness than permission comes to mind." comes to mind.

Cliff --

Congress did NOT vote for war.  They authorized the President to use force -- of course the President doesn't need their authorization -- he is the Commander in Chief and can use the forces as he sees fit.  He does, technically, need Congress to Declare War -- and he absolutely needs them to fund any military actions.  Of course, the Pentagon budget is big enough that a military action can be started without any discrete funding for it -- which then puts Congress into the unenviable position of withholding funding from the military while our troops are in harms way.  As a veteran of Desert Storm, I hope that they don't ever really do that -- because it would be a very horrible thing to leave soldiers hanging in the wind, as pawns in a big political showdown.

Now let me be clear -- I am not defending this war -- I think it was a stupid, unmitigated disaster on the part of the Bush Administration.  My point has been that using Hillary's vote to authorize force as evidence of her inability to make good decisions doesn't make sense -- unless you look at in hindsight.  Congress was asked for this vote in order to strengthen the hand of the Administration's negotiators and it was based on, at best - false; at worst - made up, intelligence.  Not to mention that Obama can say he would have voted, "No", but he did not have to register that vote, so we will never know what he might have done.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2008, 07:31:05 AM by bocker3 »
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Offline Peter Staley

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Re: Regarding the Presidential race in the USA
« Reply #36 on: May 09, 2008, 07:18:53 AM »
Mike -- your last post was empty, except for quoting my previous post.

Offline bocker3

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Re: Regarding the Presidential race in the USA
« Reply #37 on: May 09, 2008, 07:32:34 AM »
Mike -- your last post was empty, except for quoting my previous post.
Sorry about that -- I've fixed it now.  I should know better than to debate on only a half cup of coffee.   ::)

Mike
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Offline Dachshund

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Re: Regarding the Presidential race in the USA
« Reply #38 on: May 09, 2008, 07:50:41 AM »
The President does need Congress to use force and more importantly fund a war/action.

Bone up on your history there Cliff because while the President does need Congressional approval to declare war he does not need Congressional approval to use force. Recent examples of where a President used force without declaring war are Viet Nam and Korea. Congress did try to define the President's ability to use force in the 1973 War Powers Act.

Many Democrats in Congress did vote against giving the President the authority to use force. Many others now regret their vote because of the faulty intelligence and post 9/11 hysteria and paranoia the White House used in propagandizing a war with Iraq. You know mushroom clouds over Omaha and all that. Don't forget that both the house and senate were in Republican control at the time. They controlled the agenda and the message.

Authorization for use of Military force Against Iraq Resolution of 2002:

House:

Republicans:  AYES-215  NO-6

Democratic:   AYES-81    NO-126

Independent:  NO-1

Senate:

Republican:  AYES-48  NO-1

Democratic:  AYES-29  NO-21

Independent:  NO-1
« Last Edit: May 09, 2008, 08:08:17 AM by Dachshund »

Offline Cliff

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Re: Regarding the Presidential race in the USA
« Reply #39 on: May 09, 2008, 08:16:53 AM »
Cliff --

Congress did NOT vote for war.  They authorized the President to use force -- of course the President doesn't need their authorization -- he is the Commander in Chief and can use the forces as he sees fit.  He does, technically, need Congress to Declare War -- and he absolutely needs them to fund any military actions.  Of course, the Pentagon budget is big enough that a military action can be started without any discrete funding for it -- which then puts Congress into the unenviable position of withholding funding from the military while our troops are in harms way.  As a veteran of Desert Storm, I hope that they don't ever really do that -- because it would be a very horrible thing to leave soldiers hanging in the wind, as pawns in a big political showdown.
Ah, I understand.  I suppose it's difficult to imagine a president commiting the country to such a large scale invasion, without some sort of Congressional approval. 

I agree that it's probably an unfair association for Clinton.  While I don't like the Clinton(s), it has little to do with her Iraq votes.

Offline Peter Staley

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Re: Regarding the Presidential race in the USA
« Reply #40 on: May 09, 2008, 09:24:30 AM »
Mike -- now I strongly disagree with you.  LOL.

We DO know how Obama would have voted.  His famous Iraq War speech was delivered over a week before Congress voted (http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Barack_Obama's_Iraq_Speech).

And please don't tell me he might have felt differently if he had been a US Senator at the time.  His position at the time was NOT politically expedient.  In fact, it was very politically risky at the time.  Only 21 Democratic Senators had the courage to vote against the resolution, and they were pillared as being "weak" in the "war against terror."

Also, if you've never read the speech, it's one of the most enlightening Obama's ever given (the Wikipedia post has the full text, and thankfully, it's a short speech, and an easy, quick read).  Everything thing he predicted in that speech came true.  It reveals a remarkable level of sound judgement on the biggest foreign policy issue of recent years if not decades. 

Offline Florida69

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Re: Regarding the Presidential race in the USA
« Reply #41 on: May 09, 2008, 09:37:02 AM »
Mike -- now I strongly disagree with you.  LOL.

We DO know how Obama would have voted.  His famous Iraq War speech was delivered over a week before Congress voted (http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Barack_Obama's_Iraq_Speech).

And please don't tell me he might have felt differently if he had been a US Senator at the time.  His position at the time was NOT politically expedient.  In fact, it was very politically risky at the time.  Only 21 Democratic Senators had the courage to vote against the resolution, and they were pillared as being "weak" in the "war against terror."

Also, if you've never read the speech, it's one of the most enlightening Obama's ever given (the Wikipedia post has the full text, and thankfully, it's a short speech, and an easy, quick read).  Everything thing he predicted in that speech came true.  It reveals a remarkable level of sound judgement on the biggest foreign policy issue of recent years if not decades. 

Like some I am a Hillary supporter, Peter thanks for sharing this speech it is indeed enlighting.  Again, I hope Hillary wins and I have not decided how I will vote in November if she does not get the nomination, but I am grateful that Bush is no longer on the ballot.  D
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Offline BT65

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Re: Regarding the Presidential race in the USA
« Reply #42 on: May 09, 2008, 01:31:26 PM »
Well, to the people who don't know how they'll vote if Hillary is not on the ballot, all I can say is that if we get another four years of Bush via McCain, we're more screwed than we are right now.  (BTW, I voted for Obama in my state's primary).
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Offline bocker3

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Re: Regarding the Presidential race in the USA
« Reply #43 on: May 09, 2008, 04:09:55 PM »
Mike -- now I strongly disagree with you.  LOL.

We DO know how Obama would have voted.  His famous Iraq War speech was delivered over a week before Congress voted (http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Barack_Obama's_Iraq_Speech).

And please don't tell me he might have felt differently if he had been a US Senator at the time.  His position at the time was NOT politically expedient.  In fact, it was very politically risky at the time.  Only 21 Democratic Senators had the courage to vote against the resolution, and they were pillared as being "weak" in the "war against terror."

Also, if you've never read the speech, it's one of the most enlightening Obama's ever given (the Wikipedia post has the full text, and thankfully, it's a short speech, and an easy, quick read).  Everything thing he predicted in that speech came true.  It reveals a remarkable level of sound judgement on the biggest foreign policy issue of recent years if not decades. 

Thank you Peter -- that was a good read.  It does, indeed, appear that he read things right.  I have no doubt that his position was not one of political expediency, however we still will never know how he might have voted.  Stop rolling your eyes  ;D  -- I say that because members of Congress got to see a bunch of incorrect and, probably, fabricated intelligence that he was not privy to -- this might have added a new layer to his thoughts.  Reading his speech, it appears to be not likely -- however, I still say that you can't clearly state how someone would have reacted to something that they did not have to react to (in this case, "the vote").

Of course, the cynic in me also believes that ALL politicians in this country are beholden to political expediency if they wish to continue -- that includes Clinton, McCain and Obama.  The American public says they want "the truth" but many (most) don't want anything to impact them in a negative way -- so begging for votes does rely, to some degree, on feeling the temperature out there and addressing it properly.

At the end of the day -- I believe it is time for Hillary to concede.  I have every intention of giving my support and my $$ to the Obama campaign.  He MUST prevail against McCain.

Thanks for the debate -- I like these exchanges -- civil and open minded -- even if there is disagreement.

Mike
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Offline Peter Staley

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Re: Regarding the Presidential race in the USA
« Reply #44 on: May 09, 2008, 04:12:46 PM »
Thanks for the debate -- I like these exchanges -- civil and open minded -- even if there is disagreement.

Me too!  Thanks!

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Regarding the Presidential race in the USA
« Reply #45 on: May 09, 2008, 04:21:58 PM »

Now, I have to touch on the oft-mentioned criticism of Hillary's "vote for war".  First, the vote was to authorize the use of force because Bush said it would be used to strengthen our negotiating position - thus lessening the likelihood of needing to use force. 

OH come ON!  EVERYONE knew what that vote was for.  Don't be as disingenuous as Hillary has been.
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Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Regarding the Presidential race in the USA
« Reply #46 on: May 09, 2008, 04:27:16 PM »
Well, to the people who don't know how they'll vote if Hillary is not on the ballot, all I can say is that if we get another four years of Bush via McCain, we're more screwed than we are right now.  (BTW, I voted for Obama in my state's primary).

Yeah, I find it -- uh, STRANGE -- that some folks here despise Obama so much that they question if they'll vote for him or McCain come November.  Really makes me scratch my head.

ONWARD TO TEHRAN I SAY!  (is that what you folks really want?)
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Offline StrongGuy

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Re: Regarding the Presidential race in the USA
« Reply #47 on: May 09, 2008, 04:48:10 PM »
I'm definitely not a fan of Obama and don't care for him much but I will definitely vote for him cause God knows McCain would be a nightmare.

I do think Obama is in for a rough election, though. This primary has brought out the worst in people. I know a lot of people who are staunch Hillary supporters (my ex-boyfriend especially)  and Democrats who shock me in their insistence and anger at Obama and the fact that they will not vote for him. Same would be true the other way around I'm sure but I think this whole process has done more harm than good.

Let's just hope for a Democrat...but I'm not confident. We have a knack for blowing elections.

Mikey :)




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Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Regarding the Presidential race in the USA
« Reply #48 on: May 09, 2008, 05:00:26 PM »
but I think this whole process has done more harm than good.

How do you figure?

Dem enrollment is WAY up due to the extended primary.
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Offline sacinsc

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Re: Regarding the Presidential race in the USA
« Reply #49 on: May 09, 2008, 09:34:34 PM »
OK couple things I have done while looking through this ...

1. The desire to have a great orator to inspire I love. My fear though is someone who is all talk, can't get things done. A President needs to be able to create new ideas, but have the experience to be able to get them done. To have the respect from the peers to get the job done.

2. I hate to say it but all the things listed that Obama has done...well those are things he has voted Aye for. He really has introduced no legislation that has made a difference. He may have co-sponsored a bill, but he has never written one that made it through Congress. This is not saying he hasn't tried, but as a Civics teacher I can tell you that is something that is very difficult to do, and usually not something done with under 2 years of experience.

3. The vote for the war, well yes it was a vote to use force, but it was really done after the fact. The War Powers Act states that Congress must give permission to keep the forces there. Passed to prevent another Vietnam, that needs to be revamped evidently. The vote in this case was given with a bunch of horrible information meant to sway Congress. I would say I might vote in favor of it to with the information that was presented to me the way it was presented to Congress. Even the most liberal of the House and Senate authorized it. When you are lied to and given facts to support the lie....can you really blame Clinton?

4. The patriotism card has been way overplayed with this war. Remove funding and you are a communist. And the people by it.

5. I honestly think all 3 candidates offer change. Anything is better that W the dumbass. McCain I honestly believe will become the maverick again. I think he personally will run an honest campaign, but the evil Republican party will run the usual Karl Rove campaign. Is Obama ready for that one? Guess we will see. I have no doubt he will be the nominee. But I am honestly nervous about what kind of president he will be. Is he ready for the national spot light or will foreign countries use and abuse his good intentions?

I can't commit to voting for him this fall. I don't know about voting for McCain either. Looking like I might throw my vote away on a 3rd party. But I will help Virginia become BLUE with Mark Warner taking John Warners spot in the Senate! That is one vote I will be proud to cast!

Gotta say to that as a Civics teacher and American I love the debate here! I am so proud of all of you! : ) Makes me proud to know there are people out there that really care!

Matt
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Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Regarding the Presidential race in the USA
« Reply #50 on: May 09, 2008, 09:56:03 PM »

3. The vote for the war, well yes it was a vote to use force, but it was really done after the fact. The War Powers Act states that Congress must give permission to keep the forces there. Passed to prevent another Vietnam, that needs to be revamped evidently. The vote in this case was given with a bunch of horrible information meant to sway Congress. I would say I might vote in favor of it to with the information that was presented to me the way it was presented to Congress. Even the most liberal of the House and Senate authorized it. When you are lied to and given facts to support the lie....can you really blame Clinton?


yes

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/01/opinion/01chafee.html
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline bocker3

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Re: Regarding the Presidential race in the USA
« Reply #51 on: May 09, 2008, 10:49:03 PM »
Yeah, I find it -- uh, STRANGE -- that some folks here despise Obama so much that they question if they'll vote for him or McCain come November.  Really makes me scratch my head.

ONWARD TO TEHRAN I SAY!  (is that what you folks really want?)

So, if through some miracle clinton were the nominee (and I think it would need to be bigger than parting the Red Sea at this point) -- would you vote for her?

For the record -- I will happily vote for Obama (also helping to move Virginia into a deeper Blue state).

Mike
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Offline MitchMiller

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Re: Regarding the Presidential race in the USA
« Reply #52 on: May 10, 2008, 12:01:26 AM »
Just a note on the gas tax reprieve.... Obama has articulated the reason for NOT temporarily rescending the gas tax quite well... it's a huge cost to an already heavily debt burdened treasury...
However, the argument for it has a lot of merit ... but neither candidate proposing it has stated the obvious... at least as far as I know.... basically it is an adjustment period.  Gas prices have gone up 40% in three months here in CA.  That's huge.  It takes time to make the necessary lifestyle adjustments... like buying a more energy efficient auto... like moving to a location closer to your job.  These are major steps that each person can take to help save $$$ spent otherwise on gas.  However, you can't just walk away from your apt. lease or your house.  A lot of people that may want to buy a new car now don't have the $$$ for a down payment.  The gas tax reprieve would help some people out by giving them some time to help make these adjustments.  The point just needs to be made that it is a one-time temporary action.

Offline Okealyshire

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Re: Regarding the Presidential race in the USA
« Reply #53 on: May 10, 2008, 02:04:32 AM »
The gas tax reprieve would help some people out by giving them some time to help make these adjustments.
But see, that just isn't true. Let's work out the math:

Assume you drive 40 miles per day, 6 days a week. That's 12,480 miles in one year. If your car delivers 25 miles per gallon, you'll use 499.2 gallons of fuel for that year. The federal gasoline tax is $0.184 per gallon, which amounts to $91.85 for the year, or $7.65 per month.

But wait, there's more:

The United States population is about 301,000,000. Say 60% of Americans drive, that's 180,600,000 drivers. Using the numbers above*, those drivers contribute $1,381,590,000 per month to federal highway programs. If the government suspends the tax for three months, you can kiss goodbye to $4,144,770,000 of revenue for road improvements -- plus whatever jobs might get lost because of idle workers.

The "tax holiday" is nothing more than a shibboleth. It'll starve the government without doing anything to truly help individuals.


*Yes, I know there are wild variations among drivers, but that doesn't negate the usefulness of this exercise.


Offline Benoit

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Re: Regarding the Presidential race in the USA
« Reply #54 on: May 10, 2008, 05:43:33 PM »
I am not an American, so I wont be voting for the next American President. My family ancestry is on 2 websites showing my family with each generation going back to Charlemagne & the Plantagenet Dynasty with KingEdward I 'Longshanks' of England & Eleanor of Castile being my 23 times Great Grandparents. Its not unique to have a royal bloodline as many have websites showing how they are from royalty, but  I am distantly related to Pres. George Bush, Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama & John McCain & all of them are also distant cousins to each other ... so who ever wins the Presidency will have a cousin whose HIV+ even though its a distant cousin

http://humphrysfamilytree.com/famous.descents.html

This link is of the website showing that Pres. Bush, Hillary Clinton, Barrack Obama & John McCain are all distantly related & are also distantly related to many other American Presidents & like me they are descended from the Plantagenet dynasty but I hope Hillary Clinton wins as its like having two American President or Barack Obama as he seems a very down to earth person who wants to make many good changes
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Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Regarding the Presidential race in the USA
« Reply #55 on: May 10, 2008, 09:53:59 PM »
So, if through some miracle clinton were the nominee (and I think it would need to be bigger than parting the Red Sea at this point) -- would you vote for her?

Look smartypants -- as a resident of NYC just 4 years ago I was active in her campaign -- can you say that?  So, short answer, yes.  I only moved to Philadelphia since her last senate run, but was totally there for the first one -- enthusiastically even, and with ample campaign donations as I was still working at the time.

I just think her behavior THIS campaign has been atrocious though, as well as her husbands.  Frankly I was on the fence until the SC primary, if truth be known.

Then again, I'm over the catnip.
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline Jeffreyj

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Re: Regarding the Presidential race in the USA
« Reply #56 on: May 10, 2008, 11:10:25 PM »
Philly,
I agree withyou about the Clinton's bad behavior. I supported her until Bill said that horrible thing to Obama in South Carolina. On  that very day I had had enough. I went for Obama, and I will vote for him in the general.
I voted for him in the AZ primary too...it didn't help much as Hillary kicked is here but I felt very good by voting for Obama.
Positive since 1985

Offline Peter Staley

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Re: Regarding the Presidential race in the USA
« Reply #57 on: May 11, 2008, 09:00:20 AM »
If you think YOU'RE angry at how Clinton has run her campaign, you should check out Bob Herbert's op-ed in yesterday's New York Times.  Herbert is a leading African-American commentator, and I read him regularly in The Times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/10/opinion/10herbert.html

OUCH!

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Regarding the Presidential race in the USA
« Reply #58 on: May 11, 2008, 10:03:35 AM »
Yeah, I read that too last night.  Major "ouch"
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline Dachshund

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Re: Regarding the Presidential race in the USA
« Reply #59 on: May 11, 2008, 10:22:45 AM »
I believe in the long run a bruising Democratic primary will benefit Barack Obama. Clinton's attacks (that Obama weathered) ain't nothing compared to what the Republicans will throw at him. I think the tough Democratic primary will help him withstand the Republican slime machine.

If anything the 06 midterm elections prove just how little the talking heads and punditocracy actually know about the American voter. They were wrong then and they're wrong now.

You just wait, come August in Denver both Bill and Hillary will take to the stage praising Obama. A change is comin'.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2008, 10:34:00 PM by Dachshund »

Offline planonstaying

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Re: Regarding the Presidential race in the USA
« Reply #60 on: May 11, 2008, 10:48:50 AM »
I think I can safely say that the political race for President this year has a lot of us American voters
uneasy....  Regardless of whether you're a Republican or a Democrat....the choice of candidates leaves
a lot to be desired.  Of the three candidates...Clinton, Obama or McCain....which is more HIV friendly?

I don't have a clue....  I think a Democrat would be more "concerned" about us HIV folks but McCain
is making all the right noises too.  Any suggestions as to whom I should vote for in November???

(if this post is not acceptable in this section...I'm assuming Ann or somebody will move it)
I think there are two grewat candidates...neither named Mccain.  It's too bad thesleeze attacks have already started. Is Hamas et all this years gay marriage non issue?
If someone tells you  potential consequences of a behavior  it  doesn't  mean they jude you or mit    they may just give a shit about you

Online Jeff G

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Re: Regarding the Presidential race in the USA
« Reply #61 on: May 11, 2008, 11:32:24 AM »
 I am voting for Obama come election day . Maybe I'm jaded but I don't think there is anything particularly vicious about how any candidate ran they're campaigns in these primaries .
It seems to me to be the same old way politicians have always did things to me , nothing new .   

Offline BT65

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Re: Regarding the Presidential race in the USA
« Reply #62 on: May 11, 2008, 01:10:41 PM »
(Quote from the NYTimes article)  "She's the favored candidate by 'hard working Americans-white Americans.'"

What a total idiotic thing for her to say.  This only reaffirms my vote for Obama.
I've never killed anyone, but I frequently get satisfaction reading the obituary notices.-Clarence Darrow

Offline Dachshund

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Re: Regarding the Presidential race in the USA
« Reply #63 on: May 11, 2008, 03:54:00 PM »
On Saturday afternoon, the Hager family hosted wedding guests at a barbecue in Salado. The wedding, which began at 7:30 p.m., took place on the Bush ranch, before a white limestone altar erected next to a man-made lake. The Rev. Kirbyjon Caldwell of Windsor Village United Methodist Church in Houston officiated at the ceremony. Mr. Caldwell, a longtime religious adviser to Mr. Bush, has endorsed Senator Barack Obama.   ;D

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Regarding the Presidential race in the USA
« Reply #64 on: May 11, 2008, 05:30:54 PM »
On Saturday afternoon, the Hager family hosted wedding guests at a barbecue in Salado. The wedding, which began at 7:30 p.m., took place on the Bush ranch, before a white limestone altar erected next to a man-made lake. The Rev. Kirbyjon Caldwell of Windsor Village United Methodist Church in Houston officiated at the ceremony. Mr. Caldwell, a longtime religious adviser to Mr. Bush, has endorsed Senator Barack Obama.   ;D

Too bad Rev. Caldwell is one of those nasty believers in "ex-gay" ministries.
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline DCGUY2007

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Re: Regarding the Presidential race in the USA
« Reply #65 on: May 13, 2008, 03:26:36 AM »
Please vote for a Democrat. I do not want 8 more years of Republicans.

Offline dixieman

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Re: Regarding the Presidential race in the USA
« Reply #66 on: May 13, 2008, 05:28:34 PM »
That was an excellent article... the Clintons have done nothing but, enjoy fleecing the American Taxpayers... before I commit myself to any one canidate... I will have to see... McCain? Obama? I have yet to decide... maybe a strong independent? but, I know I will not VOTE for a Clinton...

Offline dusty99

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Re: Regarding the Presidential race in the USA
« Reply #67 on: May 13, 2008, 06:59:13 PM »
i don't mind either one of the two democratics, but the longer they fight, the less I like either of them. But again, I will vote any of them who becomes the candidate. Never Mccain. 100 years in Iraq? Does he have any brain?


Well, history will prove that on this particular issue, that no matter who takes the White House this year, we will in fact be in the Middle East for 100 years. This has been a major conflict. The only place we went to war and didn't establish a base was Viet Nam.  Agree with McCain or not, he is actually on target here. This may not even be something he thinks we should do, however; we already do have at least on permenant base there already (Quatar) I don't like that myself, but it's there and we will have a presence there for years to come, it will just not be as big as it is now. Neither Hillary or Barack will be able to change that no matter what they promise.  I do agree with the OP, ALL of the candidates leave a lot do be desired. Politics have become a criminal activity anymore. Regardless of the presidential winner, I personally think we need to completely eliminate every standing member of the house and senate, and start fresh with term limits on them. Changing the president WILL NOT change the direction this country is going. Also, WE as citizens need to change the laws that currently allow the house and senate to make changes that benefit them and not those who pay them i.e. voting for pay raises etc.
17 Mar 08: diagnosed
31 Mar 08 CD4: 565,  30%  VL: 28,900
21 May 08 CD4: 600,  37%  VL: 13,000
25 Oct 08  CD4: 308   34%  VL: 68,000
19 Nov 08 Started Atripla
16 Dec 08  CD4: 580   42% VL: 70
27 Jan 09  CD4: 490   41%  VL: undetectable
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Offline Assurbanipal

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Re: Regarding the Presidential race in the USA
« Reply #68 on: May 13, 2008, 08:24:03 PM »

. . .. Regardless of the presidential winner, I personally think we need to completely eliminate every standing member of the house and senate, and start fresh with term limits on them. Changing the president WILL NOT change the direction this country is going. Also, WE as citizens need to change the laws that currently allow the house and senate to make changes that benefit them and not those who pay them i.e. voting for pay raises etc.

You know, I've never really understood this sentiment.  It just doesn't seem to be a good idea to me, nor in the people's interest, that lobbyists and staffers should be more experienced at their jobs than legislators.  It seems to argue that making laws is so easy that we should have only inexperienced lawmakers.  The logical extension of this idea appears to be that we should also require that no legislator be over the age of 15?  ;)

I understand people get frustrated at all the partisan, self interested stuff, but this doesn't seem to be a solution that actually works.
5/06 VL 1M+, CD4 22, 5% , pneumonia, thrush -- O2 support 2 months, 6/06 +Kaletra/Truvada
9/06 VL 3959 CD4 297 13.5% 12/06 VL <400 CD4 350 15.2% +Pravachol
2007 VL<400, 70, 50 CD4 408-729 16.0% -19.7%
2008 VL UD CD4 468 - 538 16.7% - 24.6% Osteoporosis 11/08 doubled Pravachol, +Calcium/D
02/09 VL 100 CD4 616 23.7% 03/09 VL 130 5/09 VL 100 CD4 540 28.4% +Actonel (osteoporosis) 7/09 VL 130
8/09  new regimen Isentress/Epzicom 9/09 VL UD CD4 621 32.7% 11/09 VL UD CD4 607 26.4% swap Isentress for Prezista/Norvir 12/09 (liver and muscle issues) VL 50
2010 VL UD CD4 573-680 26.1% - 30.9% 12/10 VL 20
2011 VL UD-20 CD4 568-673 24.7%-30.6%
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Offline hankgaguy

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Re: Regarding the Presidential race in the USA
« Reply #69 on: May 13, 2008, 09:45:53 PM »
Hillary has basically done to the Democratic Party to what Bush has done to the country: Divide it, in hopes of conquering it.

Obama has done very little in the petty attacks and tactics that the Clinton Corporation (and it is indeed a corporate relationship than a true one) have pulled on him. He's held up for the most part brilliantly, although he's seemed rather listless until quite recently. But to have to fight the aspects of race and religion, the ignorance of the general public, and the ever-present Press that is hungry for sensationalism over anything, he's been rather honest and up-front about much everything.

The gas thing is merely a gimmick. I understand times are tough, but for everyone. Gas tax pays for road projects that lessen congestion. If you don't have the money, you slow down the construction progress. Funds also support TRANSIT. Hillary's promise of the windfall tax is ill advised. No economist can support her position. ALL support Obama. Plus, it's only a chance of a temporary fix to a long-term problem. Pandering to the general public such as Clinton-AFTER McCain proposed a similar tactic-shows just how low this woman will go in desparation to win the nomination.

Hillary, your time was 2004, and you stood by. Your time is over. Let Obama bring true CHANGE. Someone who's not tied to the drug lobby such as she has been (perhaps her own "windfall" from the failed 1993 Health Reform Act?).

We all are Americans and, naturally, are free to express our opinions and vote our conscious. Just as with the continuing saga of HIV/AIDS, it is education and research that is critical to keep us current and alive. I've done my research; watched the debates; read the web, etc. The two basically had similar platforms, just in different personalities. Obama just seems to be intelligent, personable, and seemingly more committed to unifying people and changing the direction of America.

My 2 cents, for what it's worth.
Healthy, Happy, and Kickin' Butt

Offline AndyArrow

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Re: Regarding the Presidential race in the USA
« Reply #70 on: May 14, 2008, 03:44:40 AM »
While I believe Barack Obama will be the Democratic nominee I have serious reservations about his engery policy & knowledge.

Sen. Clinton's gas tax holiday is different from McCain's in that she proposes paying for it with a tax on oil companies windfall profits.

Sen. Obama is completely opposed to a gas tax holiday but while he was representing his home district in Illinois he voted for a gas tax holiday 3 times in 2000 when I was living in Chicago.

One of Sen. Obama's top advisors to his Indiana campaign is Kip Tew who worked as a lobbyist for Duke Engery.

Sen. Obama also voted for the Bush/Cheney 2005 Energy Bill.

These and many other issues give me great pause but I will never vote for Sen. McCain.
It is not the arrival that matters.  It is the journey along the way. -- Michel Montaigne

Offline dusty99

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Re: Regarding the Presidential race in the USA
« Reply #71 on: May 14, 2008, 11:14:06 PM »
You know, I've never really understood this sentiment.  It just doesn't seem to be a good idea to me, nor in the people's interest, that lobbyists and staffers should be more experienced at their jobs than legislators.  It seems to argue that making laws is so easy that we should have only inexperienced lawmakers.  The logical extension of this idea appears to be that we should also require that no legislator be over the age of 15?  ;)

I understand people get frustrated at all the partisan, self interested stuff, but this doesn't seem to be a solution that actually works.


The reason I think we should remove every standing member of the congress and senate is as I stated, that it has become so corrupt that we need a new group and term limits and take away all these ridiculous benefits they have voted for themselves, the inmates are currently running the asylum. Laws are easy to make, just look at all the laws these morons have made that limit us, but benefit them and the people with all the money. We are also just giving away money to all these countries and that is part of our problem, we need to actually become an isolationist country again like we did after WWI. We need to become self sufficient and get rid of this trade defecit that we currently are under. The congress and senate are selling the American people out to the highest bidder. WE need to regain control of OUR country and not be run by a small group of people who do not have our best interests at heart. Government of the people, for the people and by the people meant that one person for a district would go and serve 1 or 2 terms, come home and it was someone else's turn, and so on. The amount of money raised to get these idiots in office would have taken care of this countries homeless and destitute for at least a year, probably more. (money better spent I can tell you for certain) I love this country, served it, and would do it again, but I am tired of these bozos destroying it and getting rich at the same time. Removing them and starting fresh would work, but we would have to also put a cap on the number of lawyers as well. We all know why that is.
17 Mar 08: diagnosed
31 Mar 08 CD4: 565,  30%  VL: 28,900
21 May 08 CD4: 600,  37%  VL: 13,000
25 Oct 08  CD4: 308   34%  VL: 68,000
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27 Jan 09  CD4: 490   41%  VL: undetectable
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Offline MitchMiller

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Re: Regarding the Presidential race in the USA
« Reply #72 on: May 15, 2008, 01:39:15 AM »
Pick up TIME magazine.  It has some really good articles on both Obama and Clinton. 

A candidate HAS to be a good politician to get elected.  Read the article and it will explain how Obama made that transition.  In fact, he has proven truly brilliant at mastering the game... especially given his meteoric rise... and his lack of the typical advantages:  being rich, having a political pedigree, or being a war hero.  I think he saw the "mistake" his rivals in the party had made by allowing him to make a very public address at the convention.  That speech was truly a classic and gave him immediate national name recognition.  He also knows that if he didn't take advantage of this "gift", he would have to wait eight years for the next chance and by then another Obama may have risen from out of nowhere.. just as he did.  That was so stupid of the Clintons to not have better control over that agenda since it was televised... and after reading the Time article, it seems that her campaign was a litany of strategic errors... mainly caused by just being overly confident.  For this reason, it does make one wonder if she would be a careful president, trying to always cover all bases, or something akin to a Democratic GW... who's taken so many gambles with our country, he makes a day trader look conservative!

I firmly believe that if Clinton was in Obama's place, she too would be taking the high road while Obama would probably have a few proxies out there slinging some mud.  I wonder if Obama gets the nomination, will the Clintons will become the attack dogs of the Democratic party?... out there slinging the mud at McCain so Obama can continue to culture his image of a "new" politician.   I think this will be a close presidential race so I am sure we'll be seeing a lot of mud slinging from both parties... with both candidates disavowing any knowledge of it.

Bill Moyer has it right in his latest book.... the media is really distorting politics by continuing to play to 30 second sound bites taken out of context, that can get a reader's quick, but very limited, attention.

 


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