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Author Topic: Spirituality and HIV  (Read 28891 times)

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Offline Dachshund

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Re: Spirituality and HIV
« Reply #50 on: April 26, 2008, 12:00:02 PM »

Offline Winiroo

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Re: Spirituality and HIV
« Reply #51 on: April 26, 2008, 12:21:28 PM »
Epicurus 341-271 BCE

"Is god willing to prevent evil but not able, then he's not omnipotent.
Is he able but not willing, then he's maleviolent.
Is god both able and willing, then whence cometh of evil.
Is he neither able nor willing, then why call him god."

I had to google Epicurus. In case anyone else doesn't know he was a Greek philosopher.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epicurus

Offline Ann

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Re: Spirituality and HIV
« Reply #52 on: April 26, 2008, 12:29:12 PM »
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline Winiroo

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Re: Spirituality and HIV
« Reply #53 on: April 26, 2008, 12:38:30 PM »
Impeccable logic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXf8COiHMuM

He annoyed me I had to turn him off half way through.

Offline Dachshund

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Re: Spirituality and HIV
« Reply #54 on: April 26, 2008, 01:28:53 PM »
He annoyed me I had to turn him off half way through.

I know dear, I guess satire is an acquired taste.

Offline Winiroo

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Re: Spirituality and HIV
« Reply #55 on: April 26, 2008, 01:35:52 PM »
Since I can not respond to your PM as that I am blocked. Are you Edward Current?

Modified because I realised since I am blocked you may never read this question and if that is the case I should also say if you are Edward Current I meant no disrespect nor insult to you. And maybe someone who isn't blocked would tell you that so you could know it.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2008, 01:40:35 PM by Winiroo »

Offline Queen Tokelove

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Re: Spirituality and HIV
« Reply #56 on: April 26, 2008, 02:20:21 PM »
Since I can not respond to your PM as that I am blocked. Are you Edward Current?

Modified because I realised since I am blocked you may never read this question and if that is the case I should also say if you are Edward Current I meant no disrespect nor insult to you. And maybe someone who isn't blocked would tell you that so you could know it.

I am sooooooo confused.....
Started Atripla/Ziagen on 9/13/07.
10/31/07 CD4-265 VL- undetectable
2/6/08 CD4- 401 VL- undetectable
5/7/08 CD4- 705 VL- undetectable
6/4/08 CD4- 775 VL- undetectable
8/6/08 CD4- 805 VL- undetectable
11/13/08 CD4- 774 VL--undetectable
2/4/09  CD4- 484  VL- 18,000 (2 months off meds)
3/3/09---Starting Back on Meds---
4/27/09 CD4- 664 VL-- undetectable
6/17/09 CD4- 438 VL- 439
8/09 CD4- 404 VL- 1,600
01-22-10-- CD4- 525 VL- 59,000
Cherish the simple things life has to offer

The Royal Blog

Offline Winiroo

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Re: Spirituality and HIV
« Reply #57 on: April 26, 2008, 02:33:53 PM »
Sorry. I'm having a really bad day.

Offline komnaes

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Re: Spirituality and HIV
« Reply #58 on: April 26, 2008, 11:25:25 PM »
Aug 07 Diagnosed
Oct 07 CD4=446(19%) Feb 08 CD4=421(19%)
Jun 08 CD4=325(22%) Jul 08 CD4=301(18%)
Sep 08 CD4=257/VL=75,000 Oct 08 CD4=347(16%)
Dec 08 CD4=270(16%)
Jan 09 CD4=246(13%)/VL=10,000
Feb 09 CD4=233(15%)/VL=13,000
Started meds Sustiva/Epzicom
May 09 CD4=333(24%)/VL=650
Aug 09 CD4=346(24%)/VL=UD
Nov 09 CD4=437(26%)/VL=UD
Feb 10 CD4=471(31%)/VL=UD
June 10 CD4=517 (28%)/VL=UD
Sept 10 CD4=687 (31%)/VL=UD
Jan 11 CD4=557 (30%)/VL=UD
April 11 CD4=569 (32%)/VL=UD
Switched to Epizcom, Reyataz and Norvir
(Interrupted for 2 months with only Epizcom & Reyataz)
July 11 CD=520 (28%)/VL=UD
Oct 11 CD=771 (31%)/VL=UD(<30)
April 12 CD=609 (28%)/VL=UD(<20)
Aug 12 CD=657 (29%)/VL=UD(<20)
Dec 12 CD=532 (31%)/VL=UD(<20)
May 13 CD=567 (31%)/VL=UD(<20)
Jan 14 CD=521 (21%)/VL=UD(<50)

Offline GSOgymrat

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Re: Spirituality and HIV
« Reply #59 on: April 27, 2008, 07:38:23 AM »

Offline Winiroo

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Re: Spirituality and HIV
« Reply #60 on: April 27, 2008, 01:24:40 PM »
I think that's a parody done by a comedian...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqJpZOljjG8

I had no clue he was a comedian. Guess if I had stuck thru till the end maybe it would have been clear to me he was trying to be funny.

Offline hartiepie

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Re: Spirituality and HIV
« Reply #61 on: April 27, 2008, 01:38:40 PM »
I had no clue he was a comedian. Guess if I had stuck thru till the end maybe it would have been clear to me he was trying to be funny.

Well ya know, he was so good at sounding like the people he is lampooning that it is hard to tell.

I grew up hearing these things in Current's line of videos and the speakers really believe lines like "If I haven't heard it, I don't need to know it because I have read the whole Bible" and "Since the word of God is in the Bible and it describes God, how can I doubt his existence?"

I used to be a Believer and still consider myself to be a cultural Christian, but I really can't believe in supernatural explanations --- they are just too convenient.

Being spiritual doesn't mean being religious.

Offline LordBerners

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Re: Spirituality and HIV
« Reply #62 on: April 27, 2008, 03:12:17 PM »
Atheist of course.  But I try to avoid hubris and be more the 'why would anyone even think of such a ridiculous idea?' kind of atheist rather than the 'faith is stupid and irrational' kind of atheist I used to be.

Honestly I have never once felt any impulse to 'believe'.  I suppose my emotions and psychological needs manifest themselves in some other way.  But I haven't noticed it.
Please, just call me Berners.. or Baron.

Offline Winiroo

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Re: Spirituality and HIV
« Reply #63 on: April 27, 2008, 10:14:34 PM »

Being spiritual doesn't mean being religious.
I agree whole heartedly

Offline CaliGuy22

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Re: Spirituality and HIV
« Reply #64 on: April 28, 2008, 01:12:21 AM »
Hi Beaubrent!!

This is my first post on the forums since finding out I was positive two months ago. (But that is another topic)  :D Four years ago I was in a Bible College studying to be a Pastor through my own will. My family was not Christian and never went to church with me, it was not something I was raised into it was something that at age 15 I went searching for. Living in a very small closed minded community there where no other churches or belief systems around then Christianity. I found much peace and joy in the Bible and in Christ. I left Bible College to move to San Francisco and experience something new. I shortly there after came out to everyone and have never looked back sense. I found that my biggest issues where not with my concept and belief in God but with the Churches I was in and there wrong and close minded views (I should point I have found amazing Churches that are open and loving of all the way I believe God is.)   About a two years ago some of my good friends in San Francisco where into Eastern Religions, without speaking to them I started reading. Picking up every book I can about Buddhism and reading what I could. Today I am spiritual and Buddhist. I find love and peace in Meditation and the overall belief in Buddhism that Compassion is key. I have always been known as a "good guy" not doing drugs, working my butt off at my jobs, stay at home don't party kind of guy. So I have felt from a early age that Compassion and Love are the keys to my walk in Spirituality. I have a large tattoo on my arm that say REVOLUTION the meaning behind it is that Compassion is Revolution. I am not an expert just another person seeking, but I am far happier now then I have ever been. Becoming Poz threw me for a big loop, being angry, wondering why, hating myself for a bit. But, the life I lead is too short to be angry and mad. I can make the best of it or let it get me down and my beliefs help in that. I am not trying to preach or teach to anyone on here, I just wanted to share with everyone where I have come from in my life. I am new here and hope to talk with you all more.

With Love,
 J
Compassion is Revolution.

tendai

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Re: Spirituality and HIV
« Reply #65 on: April 28, 2008, 06:04:07 AM »
i firmly believe in God. i may not fully understand why He lets bad things happen and all that but i believe everything happens for a reason and its all part of His plan for us.

Offline beaubrent

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Re: Spirituality and HIV
« Reply #66 on: April 28, 2008, 08:00:07 AM »
CaliGuy22 Ė Welcome to the forums and thank you for sharing your story with us. Your journey is especially interesting because when one is as immersed in belief as you were, planning your career through those beliefs, it must be especially hard to open your mind to other types of spirituality. Iím sure that same open mind will guide you on your own spiritual path as you go along.

I admire your reasoning, Okealyshire, in questioning the purpose of a divine being intervening in the lives of others. I tend to agree with your point of view, with the important caveat that if there are intervening powers in the universe, we (those who survive the crash) are rubbish at seeing its purpose. It is probably more subtle than that.

Buca, to your question about why some ďfly through lifeĒ without knowing the hardship some face, I would answer with the Buddhist point of view that our karma determines what we are dealt. Or, perhaps the Christian point of view would be that hardship is our lot to bear for belief. Or, perhaps the humanists could chime in here, but I suspect there is a philosophical point of view which has something to do with taking our lot and changing it by sheer desire of our personal mind because it is all we have. Or, maybe MtD would say lifeís a B and that it really is all a game of chance. Whatever the answer any of us has, the question fascinates me.

Komnaes, your question of the butterfly dream is a great example of how I feel sometimes in my own search.  For me, it isnít as easy as drawing a line in reality, because I accept that my line of reality is different from other folks. I believe my ancestors watch over me and guide me, but if I were to concede your point that it is illusionary, I am not ready to concede that it isnít at least helpful to my current existence.

Queen, thank you, thank you, thank for the reading recommendations. If any of the rest of you have some reading recommendations, please post them. I learn very well this way.

Tendai, a lot of people have the same unequivocal belief in a being. When faced with them, I am havenít got much to say out of respect. Until I am that certain about anything, I wonít say otherwise, but the whole point of starting a spiritual journey like I am starting is to find that out for myself!

Thank you all for your responses! Iím enjoying reading through them.

When I found out I had HIV,

I woke up and started living.

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: Spirituality and HIV
« Reply #67 on: April 28, 2008, 08:16:12 AM »
Or, maybe MtD would say lifeís a B and that it really is all a game of chance.

Nope, I wouldn't say that. But as I went about my morning rounds today, checking the cat-traps in the grounds of the Manse here in snowy BoolaBoolabongbong, I considered this very question.

I would point out that we live in a world constructed by humans and that the hardships experienced by many are inflicted on them by powerful. Not that there's some evil cabal plotting away to do over the masses, but rather that when one person serves their own self-interest somebody else suffers.

In other cases, people experience misery of their own making.

And yet others have a roof fall in on them for no good reason at all.

And whilst I've flayed the Jesus-freaks  a fair bit in this thread, don't think I won't turn my jaundiced eye to the slaves of "eastern philosophies".

The peddlers of karma always make me giggle. Those who when faced with the misery of another offer by way of comfort platitudes like "oh don't worry, what goes around comes around, you just wait and see."

I'm sure they'd be horrified to learn that many Hindus, when they encounter a poor or crippled person, simply move on because that individual is paying now for wickedness in a former life.

Or that the Dalai Lama is in fact an appalling homophobe.

Karma can be a real fucker it seems.

Yes, the universe is a swirling mass of randomness (quantum physics is probably beyond the scope this discussion) but the human society is not. It's deftly structured and capriciously ordered. There is nothing random about racial composition of American or Australian prison populations or that it's the poor and not just the patriotically stupid eating lead for George in the middle east.

Or something like that. :)

MtD

Offline BT65

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Re: Spirituality and HIV
« Reply #68 on: April 28, 2008, 09:30:07 AM »
I'm struggling right now with whether I truly believe there is a magical being who always "was" and who "controls everything, everywhere."  How could that be?  Where's the proof?  I've kind of moved from believing things at face value to thinking more critically.

The church I go to does a lot of social justice, with battered women, GLBT people, even local animal shelters.  The pastor is lesbian, most of the people who attend are GLBT.   There are no hard and fast rules.  My pastor said the only thing she takes from the Bible as literal is "love thy neighbor as thyself." 

I was raised Seventh-Day Adventist, back when it used to be a very radical religion.  They base a lot of their beliefs on a lady named Ellen G. White who they said had visions; I believe she was having hallucinations; though, her health message (vegetarianism etc.) was a good one.  Most Adventists who follow that live a long, long time.  I've been to a few other churches (Apostolic Pentecostal, Catholic), and I've found every organized religion has left me with a sour taste. 

I'm not sure what my whole conclusion will be about my belief in God (or nonbelief); I do, however, have a reading suggestion from the Damned One I'll be reading and hopefully that will help me out.  This thread has been interesting thus far.
I've never killed anyone, but I frequently get satisfaction reading the obituary notices.-Clarence Darrow

Offline GSOgymrat

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Re: Spirituality and HIV
« Reply #69 on: April 28, 2008, 09:42:57 AM »
My younger brother and I got into a debate yesterday about religion and spirituality. He is an atheist and very well versed on the subject. His argument was that spiritually, superstition and religion are not only wrong but dangerous to society. I found myself in the awkward position of defending religion and spirituality and had a surprisingly difficult time supporting my position. Part of the problem was that I agreed with 95% of what he was saying. Another problem was I couldn't effectively reconcile subjective experience with it's impact on society.

I ended up saying that atheism is intellectually satisfying but it doesn't feel very good, which was a pretty lame conclusion on my part.

Offline BT65

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Re: Spirituality and HIV
« Reply #70 on: April 28, 2008, 09:56:03 AM »
Ford, I think that's the core of it- religion makes people "feel good" and offers simple explanations and ways to live.  I'm just not sure if it's correct to assume all that.
I've never killed anyone, but I frequently get satisfaction reading the obituary notices.-Clarence Darrow

Offline hartiepie

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Re: Spirituality and HIV
« Reply #71 on: April 28, 2008, 10:02:55 AM »
The disapproving smuggness and condemning manner of religious loudmouths looks just as bad on atheists.

Offline Dachshund

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Re: Spirituality and HIV
« Reply #72 on: April 28, 2008, 10:06:51 AM »


...or anybody.

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Spirituality and HIV
« Reply #73 on: April 28, 2008, 10:41:49 AM »
If I want to "feel good" I'll just take a sedative (or two).  I don't feel this eternal need to ask questions about things which will never be answered.  Over the course of human history there have been thousands of different religions.  Evidently none of them have been correct, hence they must all be wrong.  Seems obvious to me.
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline Florida69

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Re: Spirituality and HIV
« Reply #74 on: April 28, 2008, 11:10:54 AM »
I gotta say that I really enjoyed reading everyoneísí response to this topic, so thank you for making the thread.  It is amazing what you can learn about a person when you find out the spiritual beliefs that they were taught in their youth.  I grew up southern Baptist, yes southern Baptist; however I had bad experiences within the church with secular rules that tended to only apply to church members not the leaders.  I grew up in the seventies in the south, and although I donít care to reenact it, I remember being the one that questioned everything, including how different classes of people were treated.  Growing up around farms, in a simpler fashion, with land as far as one can see to roam and explore was always an adventure, I guess that is why I enjoy exploring places on foot that I have never been.  Sorry for rambling.  When I graduated high school, I was a very angry person, at the world, at God, at life for dealing me this hand.  I was all state in football and had just had a detrimental injury that ruined my career.  I was set up with a full scholarship at UGA, but with the injury that too was diminished. I am the only child of 10 that graduated high school, less go to college, and I am also the one out of ten that was gay.  My family had a lot of difficulty dealing with my sexual orientation at first, but luckily I was able to educate, transcend and move forward.  I have had a similar experience in coming to terms with my status, but here we are two years out and I am still managing to live my life on my terms.  My family has struggled, but slowly the ones that matter have come to terms.  I studied many religions in my quest, for what is God and in attempt to answer my quest for knowledge.  I enjoyed the information that I received studying different religions, because in the end it was a great history lesson, and also taught me that my belief belongs only to me, my relationship with God is my relationship, and I do not have to share it.  My point, is that whatever your belief is that belief belongs to you, whether it be paganism, Muslim, atheist, Buddhism, etc. that belief belongs to you.  You have to find the path is that is right for you.  Take care, D
Nothing in the world can take the place of Persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. The slogan 'Press On' has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race.
Calvin Coolidge

Offline wishihadacat

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Re: Spirituality and HIV
« Reply #75 on: April 28, 2008, 05:20:54 PM »
The questions of whether there is a "God", and if not, what purposes our existence serves, are one and the same.  If there is a God, then we live, die and serve at and according to his or her will; if there isn't, then you can take a totally nihilistic view and go fuck anyone you want and do anything you feel like doing, subject only to whatever rules we've all agreed on (but find yourself a good lawyer.)

If there is a God, he/she/it has never directly revealed himself and never will, nothwithstanding some very old rumors to the contrary; every now and then, he sends along someone or something (e.g., Jesus, Mohamed, Shirley MacLaine) to give us a few pointers, and then he sits back and laughs at the whole thing.

If there isn't a God, and we are in fact just some mold growing on one of the rocks left over from the Big Bang, then it still makes sense to give meaning to existence, even if for no other reason than it will keep our minds off the fact that we are all going to die, thus the mysterious and enduring popularity of Donald Trump and "Deal or no Deal."

Then again, there is the completeness that we feel when we make love (and not just copulate with each other, although that can be perfectly entertaining,) which is either proof of the existence of God or just a quirk of human biology. Decide for yourself.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2008, 06:14:09 PM by wishihadacat »
Your name here  X_______________

Offline DanielMark

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Re: Spirituality and HIV
« Reply #76 on: April 28, 2008, 05:24:06 PM »
I enjoyed the information that I received studying different religions, because in the end it was a great history lesson, and also taught me that my belief belongs only to me, my relationship with God is my relationship, and I do not have to share it.  My point, is that whatever your belief is that belief belongs to you, whether it be paganism, Muslim, atheist, Buddhism, etc. that belief belongs to you.  You have to find the path is that is right for you.

I couldn't have said that better myself!

Daniel
MEDS: REYATAZ & KIVEXA (SINCE AUG 2008)

MAY 2000 LAB RESULTS: CD4 678
VL STILL UNDETECTABLE

DIAGNOSED IN 1988

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: Spirituality and HIV
« Reply #77 on: April 28, 2008, 05:49:03 PM »
that my belief belongs only to me, my relationship with God is my relationship, and I do not have to share it.

The instruction manual seems to differ with you here, Donnie. From the gospels:

Matthew 28:19 (KJV 1611):

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.

Mark 16:15 (KJV 1611):

Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

MtD

Offline DCGUY2007

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Re: Spirituality and HIV
« Reply #78 on: April 29, 2008, 01:09:58 AM »
Interesting post. I was brought up very religious. Christian religion. I have looked into buddhism too. I like the relaxation and meditating. Like you though there are some issues I don't agree with.

I feel I also need to become more spiritual again. I'm just not sure anymore if there is a God. I hope there is. I just wonder

Offline John2038

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Nick Vujicic is a giant of a man
« Reply #79 on: April 29, 2008, 01:51:35 AM »
If you believe in God, you will feel a lot of Love.
Can't say more. So God exists in this way at least.

Also, I was willing to share these words from Nick Vujicic:

My name is Nick Vujicic and I give God the Glory for how He has used my testimony to touch thousands of hearts around the world! I was born without limbs and doctors have no medical explanation for this birth ďdefectĒ. As you can imagine, I was faced with many challenges and obstacles.

ďConsider it pure joy, my Brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds.Ē
ďAnd we know that in all things God works for the best for those who love Him.Ē That verse spoke to my heart and convicted me to the point where that I know that there is no such thing as luck, chance or coincidence that these ďbadĒ things happen in our life.

I now see that Glory revealed as He is using me just the way I am and in ways others canít be used.
I am now twenty-three years old and have completed a Bachelor of Commerce majoring in Financial Planning and Accounting. I am also a motivational speaker and love to go out and share my story and testimony wherever opportunities become available. I have developed talks to relate to and encourage students through topics that challenge todayís teenagers. I am also a speaker in the corporate sector.

I have a passion for reaching out to youth and keep myself available for whatever God wants me to do, and wherever He leads, I follow.

I have many dreams and goals that I have set to achieve in my life. I want to become the best witness I can be of Godís Love and Hope , to become an international inspirational speaker and be used as a vessel in both Christian and non-Christian venues. I want to become financially independent by the age of 25, through real estate investments, to modify a car for me to drive and to be interviewed and share my story on the Ē Oprah Winfrey Show ď! Writing several best-selling books has been one of my dreams and I hope to finish writing my first by the end of the year. It will be called ďNo Arms, No Legs, No Worries!Ē

The awesome thing about the Power of God, is that if we want to do something for God, instead of focusing on our capability, concentrate on our availability for we know that it is God through us and we canít do anything without Him. Once we make ourselves available for Godís work, guess whose capabilities we rely on? Godís!

May the Lord Bless you
Nick Vujicic








http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DxlJWJ_WfA
Nick's Web Site: http://lifewithoutlimbs.org/

EDIT: Website added
« Last Edit: April 29, 2008, 02:00:05 AM by John2038 »

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: Spirituality and HIV
« Reply #80 on: April 29, 2008, 02:21:56 AM »
As inspirational as some may find this differently-abled chappie, perhaps a closer look at what he's talking about (as opposed to the gawking at the freak-show gallery of pictures from his site) is in order. From the article, John so kindly linked to:

Objective moral values only exist if God exists. Number two, objective moral values do exist; therefore, God exists. Let me repeat it for you: Objective moral values only exist if God exists. Objective moral values do exist; therefore, God exists.
(source)

Heh. Can't argue with that circular logic which, of course, is the idea.

There's also a Statement of Faith with all the usual fundie things. Scripture is the inerrant word of god, redemption through Jesus, people are rotten sinners etc.

And of course, Nick is pro-life:

Pro-life is a fundamental and clear issue from scriptures and it is exciting to know that there may be possibilities of speaking to Government bodies about this important issue.
(source)

MtD

Offline komnaes

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Re: Spirituality and HIV
« Reply #81 on: April 29, 2008, 05:25:56 AM »
Oh the Christians do like their freak shows. I can't even recall how many disabled/disfigured Catholics, Catholics recovering from all sort of cancers, etc we met in church gatherings when I was kid. No doubt Mr. Vujicic is an admirable individual. He's also hard to attack, and organized religions, especially Christians, like people like him testifying and promoting their values on their behalves. Exploitation? No, he does it willingly!

Thousands of differently disabled persons like Mr. Vujicic live happy and productive lives without having his or any religious belief. I am sure there are similarly disadvantaged people have strong faiths on, say, voodoo or monkey king that give them the meaning of lives.. but we tend to call them crazies.
Aug 07 Diagnosed
Oct 07 CD4=446(19%) Feb 08 CD4=421(19%)
Jun 08 CD4=325(22%) Jul 08 CD4=301(18%)
Sep 08 CD4=257/VL=75,000 Oct 08 CD4=347(16%)
Dec 08 CD4=270(16%)
Jan 09 CD4=246(13%)/VL=10,000
Feb 09 CD4=233(15%)/VL=13,000
Started meds Sustiva/Epzicom
May 09 CD4=333(24%)/VL=650
Aug 09 CD4=346(24%)/VL=UD
Nov 09 CD4=437(26%)/VL=UD
Feb 10 CD4=471(31%)/VL=UD
June 10 CD4=517 (28%)/VL=UD
Sept 10 CD4=687 (31%)/VL=UD
Jan 11 CD4=557 (30%)/VL=UD
April 11 CD4=569 (32%)/VL=UD
Switched to Epizcom, Reyataz and Norvir
(Interrupted for 2 months with only Epizcom & Reyataz)
July 11 CD=520 (28%)/VL=UD
Oct 11 CD=771 (31%)/VL=UD(<30)
April 12 CD=609 (28%)/VL=UD(<20)
Aug 12 CD=657 (29%)/VL=UD(<20)
Dec 12 CD=532 (31%)/VL=UD(<20)
May 13 CD=567 (31%)/VL=UD(<20)
Jan 14 CD=521 (21%)/VL=UD(<50)

Offline MarkB

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Re: Spirituality and HIV
« Reply #82 on: April 29, 2008, 06:38:56 AM »
Quote
Objective moral values only exist if God exists. Number two, objective moral values do exist; therefore, God exists. Let me repeat it for you: Objective moral values only exist if God exists. Objective moral values do exist; therefore, God exists.

Nice guy, I have no doubt; shame about the syllogism, though.

To me, it seems that all too many people of religious conviction appear to live their lives by another fallacious syllogism:

- I believe in a god.
- What I believe has to be true.
- Therefore, there is a god, and you must believe it too.

The OP asked what our own experiences have been. My problem over a lifetime has been that the 'spirituality' of those who profess religion has usually been accompanied by the abuse of power which those religions so frequently indulge in. The religious tend to become angry when their convictions are challenged, and the consequences to those around them can be appalling. From Antiquity on, the historical record is littered with examples of what happens to individuals and entire communities who refuse to change their world-view at the behest of another. One of my favourite examples comes from a 19th century 'missionary' in Africa, who stated with smug satisfaction that in his opinion the gospel is most effectively spread when accompanied by the point of a bayonet.

Objective moral values do NOT only exist if there is a god, and you do not need a god to live a life of compassion, kindness, love and wonder. The word spiritualitas has its roots in 'spiritus' (Latin) and πνεύμα (Greek: pneuma), which were intended to reflect רוּחַ (Hebrew: ruah). All carry the connotation of 'air', or 'breath', or 'wind'. It was in origin a Christian word, but in recent years it has come to be used in different and sometimes diametrically opposed ways by people of varying religious beliefs, or none.

As I see it, to draw breath itself - to be alive - is an extraordinary thing, endlessly wondrous and tragic, which soon enough will come to an end. How I use that time of breath is my choice.

I was diagnosed HIV+ about two weeks before my mother died of cancer. When I went from the clinic to the hospice where she was, she asked me whether I had had a good day, and was I happy. My answer was, I think, the only real lie I ever told her. But the diagnosis has made me reflect again on what it means to be alive, and on all that entails. So for me, spirituality is fundamentally about the here and now, and how I choose to respond to that.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2008, 01:00:45 PM by aelwyd »

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Spirituality and HIV
« Reply #83 on: April 29, 2008, 07:56:18 AM »
I can't believe someone in this thread has employed visuals of a limbless human being to prop up their weak argument.

Oh wait -- OK, I can believe it.
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline Dachshund

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Re: Spirituality and HIV
« Reply #84 on: April 29, 2008, 08:28:22 AM »
Insulating yourself against the taint of all religion is a kind of psychological, informational hygiene. Abandon all rigor and requirement for reality-based evidence for one's ideas, and you open the door wide for the kind of conditioning in dogma modern religion promotes.

Offline mudman8

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Re: Spirituality and HIV
« Reply #85 on: April 29, 2008, 03:53:29 PM »
Started out protestant, then the Baptists got ahold of me in my college years. It got ugly I moved and left the church. 10 years later I started searching and doing things like meditation.  There's a whole lotta dogma out there and no "proof". My disease, and those I've lost, taught me compassion. I don't adhere to any one thing. I think there's a purpose, but I'm not putting anything on anybody and don't want them to influence me.

I do know when I've really been down or needed help several times in my life, good things have happened. Coincidence? or Faith? I don't really know, life has just been an interesting trip.
Life is analog

Offline Florida69

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Re: Spirituality and HIV
« Reply #86 on: April 29, 2008, 04:53:22 PM »
Started out protestant, then the Baptists got ahold of me in my college years. It got ugly I moved and left the church. 10 years later I started searching and doing things like meditation.  There's a whole lotta dogma out there and no "proof". My disease, and those I've lost, taught me compassion. I don't adhere to any one thing. I think there's a purpose, but I'm not putting anything on anybody and don't want them to influence me.

I do know when I've really been down or needed help several times in my life, good things have happened. Coincidence? or Faith? I don't really know, life has just been an interesting trip.

Exactly, how I feel.  The one thing in life that is constant is change. 

As I said I may have grown up Baptist, however I do not practice any religion.    I see them as I see most people as being hypocritical. It is okay to do it at one point, or by some, but not by all. It is important to know history.    I am not saying all people are hypocrites.   In evaluation of any debate there comes a time when it is easier and better to let it go, as no good or change will come from it.  Regardless how confident I feel on the subject, there will always be those that will be more reverent, as I have learned from this forum.  In life I have always been able to do what is best for me, by looking out for me and putting me and those I care about first.    I guess my philosophy is all about evaluating self, and doing what is right for me.  I learned that through some really great people in dealing with my own diagnosis.  That has even been true of past relationships, I try to hold on in hopes that things will change, but at some point you have to ask yourself what is the necessary element that has to change to make the affiliation right for me.   However, I am resilient and my flexibility is tested regularly. As I stated, my relationship with any deity belongs only to me.  I have this saying yesterday is history, tomorrow is a dream, today is what counts.

I did find this site and found it interesting, and wanted to share, I hope you all enjoy.
http://edition.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2007/gods.warriors/

You guys totally rock.
D
Nothing in the world can take the place of Persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. The slogan 'Press On' has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race.
Calvin Coolidge

Offline Winiroo

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Re: Spirituality and HIV
« Reply #87 on: April 29, 2008, 05:08:21 PM »
I had to think about all the different churches and or schools I've attended. Might not be interesting to anyone but I'll list them anyway.

Schools : Lutheran, Baptist and non denominational christian.
Churches : Pentecostal, Lutheran, Baptist, Methodist, Mormon <baptised there>, Catholic, Unity church and several non denominational churches.

That's all I can remember the names of. I know there where others I've attended but I cant remember what kind of church they where. I visited a Buddhist temple once an took a tour but never went to a service.

Modified because I failed to say I dont attend church now unless its a wedding or funeral.

Offline Okealyshire

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Re: Spirituality and HIV
« Reply #88 on: April 29, 2008, 09:44:29 PM »

A question and a follow-on:

I feel I also need to become more spiritual again. I'm just not sure anymore if there is a God. I hope there is. I just wonder

This is the crux of our discussion here. DCGUY2007, why do you hope that there is a god? Please understand: I imply no criticism, I'm genuninely curious why you feel this longing. Is there some aspect of your life that requires a supernatural cause, a mover external to this universe that in some way maneuvers the universe's course through time? Why? Or if not, then why maintain the hope?

Objective moral values do NOT only exist if there is a god, and you do not need a god to live a life of compassion, kindness, love and wonder.

Intelligent people are engaging in thoughtful discussions about how morality and compassion are an intrinsic part of our evolutionary and genetic programming. See, for instance:

While I haven't yet tried any of the surveys here (http://www.yourmorals.org/), I've bookmarked it for return later. Wonder what I'll learn about myself? :)



Offline Jody

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Re: Spirituality and HIV
« Reply #89 on: April 29, 2008, 11:29:49 PM »
Arianna Huffington has a book out: "Right is Wrong" and one of the topics she astutely mentions in an interview is how at a recent debate by the Republican candidates for president a question was asked: "How many of you do not believe in evolution?" and three candidates including the beloved Huckabee raised their hands.  Huffington, and no doubt millions of Americans and folks worldwide were appalled, angered and no doubt frightened by these people and their ancient beliefs coming from people who knew no better and had no evidence to the contrary.  As Edward R. Murrow alluded to some questions just don't have two sides.

I remember going to Hebrew school back when in the the tumultuous late 1960's to prepare for my Bar Mitzvah in 1968 and though the boys in class came from largely secular Jewish families like myself, we were taught, probably just for the sake of it, that God created earth in 6 days and rested on the seventh.  Science taught us the fallacy of this theory of course yet we accepted that religion would always teach it because they just couldn't change .  Deep down surely even the rabbis knew this was bogus?!?

Yet today, 40 years later, large numbers of Christians and Muslims, who make up a huge portion of the worlds population, as well as Orthodox Jews, push this thinking to their children and to society.  Surely they must know that their rejection of scientific evidence is dangerous and wrong?!?

So I was an innocent boy back in 1968, turning 13 (a man-LOL), living in a time in America just around the era of the assassinations of Robert Kennedy and Martin Luther King and I recited the Hebrew I learned to speak but not understand in a synagogue for the obligation of a Bar Mitzvah boy, not fully contemplating it then, but now realizing that people partake in such rituals more for themselves and the perpetuation of their cultures they are so desperately afraid to lose, than for any judgemental God they may face someday and that while some good may come to the spirit of a number of us, the big lie and the rejection of real truth and the prejudice and division that results may be more harmful to us all sooner than later.

Jody  ???
"Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world".
 "Try to discover that you are the song that the morning brings."

Grateful Dead

Offline edfu

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Re: Spirituality and HIV
« Reply #90 on: April 30, 2008, 12:26:37 AM »
I can't believe someone in this thread has employed visuals of a limbless human being to prop up their weak argument.

Oh wait -- OK, I can believe it.

You better believe it.  It's something you can truly believe.  Those who insist on converting the entire world to their belief systems will stop at nothing--absolutely nothing--to achieve their totalitarian ends.  Our recent history proves that, if nothing else does. 

I spent six years in the seminary preparing to be a priest:  three years of high school and three years of college.  I believe I know whereof I speak.  The one dominant thing I learned in all those years is that the Roman Catholic Church has caused more human suffering and death throughout history than any other organization.  It continues to do so.  Its current position opposing contraception is relevant to this board.  Not to speak of the Crusades, the medieval European wars when the Vatican was a secular power, the burnings at the stake, the condemnation of human beings loving one another.... 
« Last Edit: April 30, 2008, 02:30:44 AM by edfu »
"No one will ever be free so long as there are pestilences."--Albert Camus, "The Plague"

"Mankind can never be free until the last brick in the last church falls on the head of the last priest."--Voltaire

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: Spirituality and HIV
« Reply #91 on: April 30, 2008, 01:05:12 AM »
The one dominant thing I learned in all those years is that the Roman Catholic Church has caused more human suffering and death throughout history than any other organization.  It continues to do so.  Its current position opposing contraception is relevant to this board.  Not to speak of the Crusades, the medieval European wars when the Vatican was a secular power, the burnings at the stake, the condemnation of human beings loving one another....

Matty the Damned finds that he could not agree more strongly with Edfu. :)

The cathylick church has an enormous case to answer for it's role in the spread of HIV throughout the developed world, especially Africa and Central/South America.

MtD

Offline komnaes

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Re: Spirituality and HIV
« Reply #92 on: April 30, 2008, 06:56:21 AM »
Aug 07 Diagnosed
Oct 07 CD4=446(19%) Feb 08 CD4=421(19%)
Jun 08 CD4=325(22%) Jul 08 CD4=301(18%)
Sep 08 CD4=257/VL=75,000 Oct 08 CD4=347(16%)
Dec 08 CD4=270(16%)
Jan 09 CD4=246(13%)/VL=10,000
Feb 09 CD4=233(15%)/VL=13,000
Started meds Sustiva/Epzicom
May 09 CD4=333(24%)/VL=650
Aug 09 CD4=346(24%)/VL=UD
Nov 09 CD4=437(26%)/VL=UD
Feb 10 CD4=471(31%)/VL=UD
June 10 CD4=517 (28%)/VL=UD
Sept 10 CD4=687 (31%)/VL=UD
Jan 11 CD4=557 (30%)/VL=UD
April 11 CD4=569 (32%)/VL=UD
Switched to Epizcom, Reyataz and Norvir
(Interrupted for 2 months with only Epizcom & Reyataz)
July 11 CD=520 (28%)/VL=UD
Oct 11 CD=771 (31%)/VL=UD(<30)
April 12 CD=609 (28%)/VL=UD(<20)
Aug 12 CD=657 (29%)/VL=UD(<20)
Dec 12 CD=532 (31%)/VL=UD(<20)
May 13 CD=567 (31%)/VL=UD(<20)
Jan 14 CD=521 (21%)/VL=UD(<50)

Offline dusty99

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Re: Spirituality and HIV
« Reply #93 on: April 30, 2008, 06:05:07 PM »
You better believe it.  It's something you can truly believe.  Those who insist on converting the entire world to their belief systems will stop at nothing--absolutely nothing--to achieve their totalitarian ends.  Our recent history proves that, if nothing else does. 

This goes for the groups that do not "believe" anything. Or any group that wants to achieve their goals of what ever they want to get across. And truth be damned in the whole thing. I also have found that people make statements about what Christians believe. There are some that do believe some of the things described, but NOT all Christians believe many of the things described here. I for one am one of the people that, as a Christian do not believe as having been described. I DO believe in God, What I believe to be sin is what goes against the very character, person, and nature of God. There is the old law and new law. Much of the old law has been done away with because they are no longer needed as many of the reasons for those laws (designed to protect the people) went away. The most famous and still remaining laws are the 10 commandments, 4 of them are your relationship with God. the other 6 are your relationship with man. They have also been summarized into this: Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul mind and strength, and love your neighbor as your self. Pretty basic, a lot of the other stuff really doesn't matter. And yes, there are those who make things bigger than necessary and then fall themselves. I have my faith, I fall all the time from what I know to be sin (for me) but the thing is, I get back up and continue on. I know I am loved by God and my faith continues on.  I do think though, that pointing fingers at what the Christians are doing only makes you look bad. So they screwed up, so what? Do you want people pointing out your flaws? I know, I know, they kinda ask for it, and yeah would tend to agree a little bit. But please, DO NOT lump ALL Christians in together.
17 Mar 08: diagnosed
31 Mar 08 CD4: 565,  30%  VL: 28,900
21 May 08 CD4: 600,  37%  VL: 13,000
25 Oct 08  CD4: 308   34%  VL: 68,000
19 Nov 08 Started Atripla
16 Dec 08  CD4: 580   42% VL: 70
27 Jan 09  CD4: 490   41%  VL: undetectable
24 Mar 09  CD4: 565   42%  VL: undetectable
30 Jun 09  CD4: 615    41% VL: undetectable
25 Sep 09  CD4: 595    47% VL: undetectable

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: Spirituality and HIV
« Reply #94 on: April 30, 2008, 06:58:25 PM »
This goes for the groups that do not "believe" anything. Or any group that wants to achieve their goals of what ever they want to get across. And truth be damned in the whole thing. I also have found that people make statements about what Christians believe. There are some that do believe some of the things described, but NOT all Christians believe many of the things described here. I for one am one of the people that, as a Christian do not believe as having been described. I DO believe in God, What I believe to be sin is what goes against the very character, person, and nature of God. There is the old law and new law. Much of the old law has been done away with because they are no longer needed as many of the reasons for those laws (designed to protect the people) went away. The most famous and still remaining laws are the 10 commandments, 4 of them are your relationship with God. the other 6 are your relationship with man. They have also been summarized into this: Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul mind and strength, and love your neighbor as your self. Pretty basic, a lot of the other stuff really doesn't matter. And yes, there are those who make things bigger than necessary and then fall themselves. I have my faith, I fall all the time from what I know to be sin (for me) but the thing is, I get back up and continue on. I know I am loved by God and my faith continues on.  I do think though, that pointing fingers at what the Christians are doing only makes you look bad. So they screwed up, so what? Do you want people pointing out your flaws? I know, I know, they kinda ask for it, and yeah would tend to agree a little bit. But please, DO NOT lump ALL Christians in together.

The bit I've highlighted here is interesting. I think what Dusty is referring to is comments attributed to Jesus' in the Acts of the Apostles where he talks about his death and resurrection doing away with Jewish ceremonial law (ie not eating pork, shell-fish, sprinkling pigeon blood on the doors of the Temple, women being unclean when they menstruate) but that the moral law remains and is enforced.

As for the "other stuff that doesn't really matter", well that's a different story. I'll expand on that later. :)

MtD

Offline edfu

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Re: Spirituality and HIV
« Reply #95 on: April 30, 2008, 07:41:51 PM »
Here's a really excellent article that is superbly relevant to this discussion:

http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/burningpaper/2008/04/03/christianity-owes-us/

And here's a BBC report that makes one want to weep.  The head of the Catholic church in Mozambique claims that condoms and some antiretroviral drugs are deliberately infected with HIV:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7014335.stm
« Last Edit: April 30, 2008, 09:35:53 PM by edfu »
"No one will ever be free so long as there are pestilences."--Albert Camus, "The Plague"

"Mankind can never be free until the last brick in the last church falls on the head of the last priest."--Voltaire

Offline MarkB

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Re: Spirituality and HIV
« Reply #96 on: May 01, 2008, 02:25:25 AM »
I do think though, that pointing fingers at what the Christians are doing only makes you look bad. So they screwed up, so what?

Priceless ...  ;D

Offline Okealyshire

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Re: Spirituality and HIV
« Reply #97 on: May 01, 2008, 05:26:32 AM »
The most famous and still remaining laws are the 10 commandments, 4 of them are your relationship with God. the other 6 are your relationship with man.

Exodus 2:12 (fifth commandment) -- "Honor your father and your mother, so that your days may be long in the land your lord god is giving you."

Luke 14:26 (Jesus, presumably replacing the old law) -- "Whoever comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and even life itself, cannot be my disciple."

Hmmm...?

Offline Torey

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Re: Spirituality and HIV
« Reply #98 on: May 01, 2008, 06:38:15 AM »
Hi, Beaubrent  ;D

I was a Wiccan for ten years before finding that my path led me to what is deemed 'eclectic witchcraft'.  I am also walking the path of the Shamanist.  It's interesting that you say about your ancestors, as Shamanism and ancestors mesh together on a huge level.  There is extensive work with the ancestors and they are revered right up there with the many other aspects of what is 'divine'.

If you would like to know more, you can message me.  Otherwise there is a wealth  of information online about Shamanism...although some would advise you to steer clear of Michael Harner's 'Core Shamanism'.  Blessings to you, friend.
Seroconversion 2006 (?)
Jan 08 - CD4 409 (28.5%)  VL-10,000
May 09 - CD4 297 (19.2%) VL-92,000
October 09 - CD4 244 (15.2%) VL-116,000
December 09 - CD4 239 (13.5%) VL-142,000
(No Meds)

Offline thunter34

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Re: Spirituality and HIV
« Reply #99 on: May 01, 2008, 07:46:42 AM »
This goes for the groups that do not "believe" anything. Or any group that wants to achieve their goals of what ever they want to get across. And truth be damned in the whole thing. I also have found that people make statements about what Christians believe. There are some that do believe some of the things described, but NOT all Christians believe many of the things described here. I for one am one of the people that, as a Christian do not believe as having been described. I DO believe in God, What I believe to be sin is what goes against the very character, person, and nature of God. There is the old law and new law. Much of the old law has been done away with because they are no longer needed as many of the reasons for those laws (designed to protect the people) went away. The most famous and still remaining laws are the 10 commandments, 4 of them are your relationship with God. the other 6 are your relationship with man. They have also been summarized into this: Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul mind and strength, and love your neighbor as your self. Pretty basic, a lot of the other stuff really doesn't matter. And yes, there are those who make things bigger than necessary and then fall themselves. I have my faith, I fall all the time from what I know to be sin (for me) but the thing is, I get back up and continue on. I know I am loved by God and my faith continues on.  I do think though, that pointing fingers at what the Christians are doing only makes you look bad. So they screwed up, so what? Do you want people pointing out your flaws? I know, I know, they kinda ask for it, and yeah would tend to agree a little bit. But please, DO NOT lump ALL Christians in together.

The bit I've highlighted here is interesting. I think what Dusty is referring to is comments attributed to Jesus' in the Acts of the Apostles where he talks about his death and resurrection doing away with Jewish ceremonial law (ie not eating pork, shell-fish, sprinkling pigeon blood on the doors of the Temple, women being unclean when they menstruate) but that the moral law remains and is enforced.

As for the "other stuff that doesn't really matter", well that's a different story. I'll expand on that later. :)

MtD

/EDIT:  Matty is the one who comes up in the quotes, but this post is in reference to statements both he and dusty make in their posts./

I've been steering clear of this thread over the last few days, but I have to raise one point / question.  And coming to you as both a "dunked in the river mountain Baptist" and a gay man, I feel I've got some pretty good grounds for asking it.  I hear these lines all the time and have for years since coming out.  I get maligned and condemned - loudly - from pulpits and podiums all around the world by those who claim to have the moral authority of the Bible.  I get told I am unnatural and evil and quite literally a harbinger of the apocolypse simply because of my desire to live and love as in the way that I feel is natural and right for me. And yet I also have people whisper to me all the time: "Oh, I don't really feel like that.  Not all of us think like that." 

Really?  Then where is the public outcry, eh?  I really wanna know.  People will tap it out from the comfort of their keyboards.  They'll  whisper it  quietly in my ear, but I don't think that's nearly good enough.  Not by a long shot.  Your fellow "children of God" are being told they are wicked and doomed to Hell and dragging the whole of the world down with them.  They are essentially suffering not only discrimination but psychological abuse because of these so-called christian teachings.  If so many of you don't believe it and disagree, where is the protest?  How is it you feel comfortable enough to sit quietly by and let this continue?  At the very least, it drives untold numbers away from your faith and outside the church doors.  That's right:  "souls are being lost".  At worst, this hateful venom is responsible for not only things like not teaching about contraception, but specifically working to make sure that discussions of safe homosexual sex practices are never properly discussed - the very young people who probably need this information the most.  It seems like the popular take is that it is OK to throw these kids under the bus for the sake of propping up this continued farce of moral piety.  And yet so many of you do nothing.  Say nothing.  Shouldn't you all be shouting down the rafters against this hateful and, in my opinion, unholy rhetoric?  Well?

I realize I may have veered a bit from the initial direction of this thread, and I apologize or that.  But it's something I really needed to get off my chest.  I am sick to death (quite literally now, mind you) of this talking out of both sides your mouths.  I grew up hearing endless condemnation against gay people from "good christian people" while they chomped down on slabs of ham in the fellowship hall.  As a young child, it absolutely battered my self esteem and, I believe, set me on a path toward some of the reckless behavior that led me here.  Some of you reading may want to say, "Oh...you're trying to blame the christians for your actions", etc.  Well why the fuck not?  They've spent innumerable years blaming people like me for all the ills of the world.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2008, 08:09:11 AM by thunter34 »
AIDS isn't for sissies.

 


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