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Author Topic: Beating the Disclosure topic into the dirt  (Read 9439 times)

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Offline Oceanbeach

  • Member
  • Posts: 3,565
Beating the Disclosure topic into the dirt
« on: February 22, 2008, 11:29:06 PM »
I chose to leave the HIV box unchecked in my dating site profile.  I figure 60% of all gay men, living in metropolitan areas are HIV +, whether they know it or not.  A gay man in his late 40's in San Francisco has to be pretty savvy in HIV issues.  I met someone on that site a couple of days ago, we have been sending email stories of our lives, ambitions and goals.  This has been fun.

We are having our fist date on Saturday (next weekend), the weather is going to be a great outdoors kind of day so an outdoor adventure is being planned.  I have not asked his status or disclosed mine and we are both interested in LTR over Mr. Right Now.  Besides, I have not been on a really good date for more years than I care to think about and I believe if I sent an email saying... "Oh by the way, I have HIV" could end this date before it gets started.

I have disclosed my status with the press over the past few years in Sonoma County over HIV funding issues but this man lives in San Francisco, would have seen hundreds of articles like it but... never one of mine.

Is it fair to hide this diagnosis from someone, long enough to get to know them better?  OR

Since I have been so public about my status over the years and we are both interested in in LTR, should I take the chance, disclose and possibly not go on another date for the next decade?  ;D Have the best day
Michael

Offline komnaes

  • Member
  • Posts: 1,893
Re: Beating the Disclosure topic into the dirt
« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2008, 12:26:54 AM »
Hey Micheal

I wouldn't have thought you'd the type that worries about disclosure.. ;)

Just my observations: When I was single and living in the Bay Area before my diagnosis, I assumed whoever I met through dating sites were HIV+. That also applied to all causal encounters I picked up from chatrooms, bars and saunas. The fact that someone puts "Not Known" or simply left it blank in their HIV box to me equals to an admission of being positive. So, first, you sure this dreamboat is negative?

If I was to start seeing someone with the intention to start dating, I would definitely let him know as it's such an important part of my life now. It has nothing to do with the perceived risk of transmission during sex or being fair, etc, it's more about me being able to open up myself to and not to hide anything from someone who I am keenly interested in to start a relationship.

I think folks in the Bay Area are definitely more shock-proof than anywhere else - being positive may not be a deal-killer. How about just go and enjoy a good date, see what you think and how he reacts to you, then decide...

I wish you the best my dear friend, hugs,

Shaun
Aug 07 Diagnosed
Oct 07 CD4=446(19%) Feb 08 CD4=421(19%)
Jun 08 CD4=325(22%) Jul 08 CD4=301(18%)
Sep 08 CD4=257/VL=75,000 Oct 08 CD4=347(16%)
Dec 08 CD4=270(16%)
Jan 09 CD4=246(13%)/VL=10,000
Feb 09 CD4=233(15%)/VL=13,000
Started meds Sustiva/Epzicom
May 09 CD4=333(24%)/VL=650
Aug 09 CD4=346(24%)/VL=UD
Nov 09 CD4=437(26%)/VL=UD
Feb 10 CD4=471(31%)/VL=UD
June 10 CD4=517 (28%)/VL=UD
Sept 10 CD4=687 (31%)/VL=UD
Jan 11 CD4=557 (30%)/VL=UD
April 11 CD4=569 (32%)/VL=UD
Switched to Epizcom, Reyataz and Norvir
(Interrupted for 2 months with only Epizcom & Reyataz)
July 11 CD=520 (28%)/VL=UD
Oct 11 CD=771 (31%)/VL=UD(<30)
April 12 CD=609 (28%)/VL=UD(<20)
Aug 12 CD=657 (29%)/VL=UD(<20)
Dec 12 CD=532 (31%)/VL=UD(<20)
May 13 CD=567 (31%)/VL=UD(<20)
Jan 14 CD=521 (21%)/VL=UD(<50)

Offline Queen Tokelove

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  • Posts: 6,033
  • Smokey the Smurf
Re: Beating the Disclosure topic into the dirt
« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2008, 01:02:02 AM »
Ah My Dear Michael---

Her Majesty has been on the fence for quite awhile in regards to the disclosure issue of to tell or not to tell. Since being diagnosed back in '97 here by my quaint little Health Department who made the trip to my home to tell me. And having my oldest sister convince me to tell my other sister(who is also jealous of me because of my skin color) who then used it against me before I had the option of disclosing to anyone...*whew* Well, it made me hide it for 10 long years even though I was being responsible and using a condom. None ever broke by the way which made it easier for me to keep my status to myself. Oh, did I mention I even did the just say no thing for 3 years til recently about a few months ago. I tried the drop a hint method which he still didn't have a clue even if I bought all the damn vowels for him. Just a little joke but unfortunately true even when I tried to  share the knowledge of what I have learned on my own and from here...Go Figure..

I carried that baggage around with me for a few and when I blogged about it and talked about it in the Women's Forum. I got mixed reviews. Some understood and supported my decision of not disclosing while some felt that it was not right and I took away that person's right to choose. I was even called selfish and shallow by some folks on my blog. If you read the blog or the thread here then you know about my meltdown. Not gonna rehash it but have been reflecting on it a bit. I feel carrying the weight of not disclosing was part of the meltdown. Well as of today, check the dating thread if you think I am lying, I have decided to get off the fence. I have chosen that if I am gonna be with anyone, he will have to be poz because how I see it the damage was done to me a long time ago when it comes to disclosure and it's not going to be an easy for me to disclose to someone neg today as it was back then. I maybe cutting myself off to a point but it's better than rejected at every turn or carrying the guilt. I plan on working on that once I get a therapist because I don't see it as something I can do on my own at this point.

Sorry for rambling but I guess I still feel the time of when is up to the individual. And you yourself has said that you have been so open in the past about it so why hide it now? You may not have to do it on the first date but if you think you are going to develop feelings, it may be better to get it out of the way sooner than later.Just some insight from someone who has been hiding it for 10 years...Good Luck, sweetie.
Started Atripla/Ziagen on 9/13/07.
10/31/07 CD4-265 VL- undetectable
2/6/08 CD4- 401 VL- undetectable
5/7/08 CD4- 705 VL- undetectable
6/4/08 CD4- 775 VL- undetectable
8/6/08 CD4- 805 VL- undetectable
11/13/08 CD4- 774 VL--undetectable
2/4/09  CD4- 484  VL- 18,000 (2 months off meds)
3/3/09---Starting Back on Meds---
4/27/09 CD4- 664 VL-- undetectable
6/17/09 CD4- 438 VL- 439
8/09 CD4- 404 VL- 1,600
01-22-10-- CD4- 525 VL- 59,000
Cherish the simple things life has to offer

The Royal Blog

Offline jabez

  • Member
  • Posts: 97
Re: Beating the Disclosure topic into the dirt
« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2008, 01:34:49 AM »
Heck no, I wouldn't say a word about it.   If this is a fairly innocent "getting-to-know-you" date, (with no sex on the agenda for Saturday), then I think you should just go & have a good time.   It may turn out that you don't even like him.  Or it may turn out that he really is LTR material.  If you do get a good feeling from him and find that you are interested in seeing him again, then I think you should tell him about your status on the second date.   (And there's always the chance that he's positive, too.)   I definitely wouldn't ruin Saturday's date by dropping the Hi-Five bombshell too quickly.  There will be plenty of time to do that later if the need arises.   If genuine "dates" have been few-&-far-between lately, I sure wouldn't risk ruining it.  Good luck.   I hope it works out the way you want it to.         
Sept 2007 -- CD4 = 68; VL = 469,000
Started Atripla Sept 21, 2007
Nov 2007-CD4=217;VL=332
Feb 2008-CD4=237;VL=<50
Apr 2008-CD4=271;VL=66
Aug 2008-CD4=440;VL=52
Jan 2009-CD4=403;VL=61
May 2009-CD4=480;VL=129
Sep 2009-CD4=376;VL<40
Jan 2010-CD4=476;VL<40
Jul 2010-CD4=539;VL<40
Jan 2011-CD4=461;VL=53
Jul 2011-CD4=515;VL<20
Jan 2012-CD4=506;VL=54
Aug 2012-CD4=440;VL=21
Jan 2013-CD4=447;VL=<20
Jul 2013-CD4=406; VL=<20
Feb 2014-CD4=450; VL=<20
Aug 2014-CD4=535; VL=<20

Offline next2u

  • Member
  • Posts: 1,762
Re: Beating the Disclosure topic into the dirt
« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2008, 02:01:40 AM »
eggh, man it's a personal decision. whatever you decide, let us know the outcome.

my opinion --> feel it out. i worry about having sex and not disclosing because of legal ramifications. using condoms pretty much quells my moral/ethical dilemmas. disclosure is great, hiv is not. wishing you the best on whatever you decide.
midapr07 - seroconversion
sept07 - tested poz
oct07 cd4 1013; vl 13,900; cd4% 41
feb08 cd4  694;  vl 16,160; cd4% 50.1
may08 cd4 546; vl 91,480; cd4% 32
aug08 cd4 576; vl 48,190; cd4% 40.7
dec08 cd4 559; vl 63,020; cd4% 29.4
feb09 cd4 464; vl 11,000; cd4% 26
may09 cd4 544; vl 29,710; cd4% 27.2
oct09 cd4 ...; vl 23,350; cd4% 31.6
mar10 cd4 408; vl 59,050; cd4% 31.4
aug10 cd4 328; vl 80,000; cd4% 19.3 STARTED ATRIPLA
oct10 cd4 423; vl 410 ;); cd4% 30.2
jun11 cd4 439; vl <20 ;); cd4% 33.8 <-Undetectable!
mar12 cd4 695; vl ud; cd4% 38.6
jan13 cd4 738; vl ud; cd4% 36.8
aug13 cd4 930; vl ud; cd4% 44.3
jan14 cd4 813; vl ud; cd4% 42.8
may14 cd4 783; vl *; cd4%43.5

Offline next2u

  • Member
  • Posts: 1,762
Re: Beating the Disclosure topic into the dirt
« Reply #5 on: February 23, 2008, 02:08:22 AM »
so what are the stats on hiv poz men in metropolitan areas? the cdc claims that 50 percent (more or less) of black gay men in metro areas are poz.
midapr07 - seroconversion
sept07 - tested poz
oct07 cd4 1013; vl 13,900; cd4% 41
feb08 cd4  694;  vl 16,160; cd4% 50.1
may08 cd4 546; vl 91,480; cd4% 32
aug08 cd4 576; vl 48,190; cd4% 40.7
dec08 cd4 559; vl 63,020; cd4% 29.4
feb09 cd4 464; vl 11,000; cd4% 26
may09 cd4 544; vl 29,710; cd4% 27.2
oct09 cd4 ...; vl 23,350; cd4% 31.6
mar10 cd4 408; vl 59,050; cd4% 31.4
aug10 cd4 328; vl 80,000; cd4% 19.3 STARTED ATRIPLA
oct10 cd4 423; vl 410 ;); cd4% 30.2
jun11 cd4 439; vl <20 ;); cd4% 33.8 <-Undetectable!
mar12 cd4 695; vl ud; cd4% 38.6
jan13 cd4 738; vl ud; cd4% 36.8
aug13 cd4 930; vl ud; cd4% 44.3
jan14 cd4 813; vl ud; cd4% 42.8
may14 cd4 783; vl *; cd4%43.5

Offline DanielMark

  • Member
  • Posts: 1,475
Re: Beating the Disclosure topic into the dirt
« Reply #6 on: February 23, 2008, 06:40:28 AM »
Michael,

When I was dating (following three years of no dating after ending a 10-year relationship), I never disclosed unless it looked like things were going to get physically intimate. Why end any hope of getting to know someone first? You may not even like each other enough to have it be a question.

Daniel
MEDS: REYATAZ & KIVEXA (SINCE AUG 2008)

MAY 2000 LAB RESULTS: CD4 678
VL STILL UNDETECTABLE

DIAGNOSED IN 1988

Offline BT65

  • Global Moderator
  • Member
  • Posts: 9,975
Re: Beating the Disclosure topic into the dirt
« Reply #7 on: February 23, 2008, 11:23:30 AM »
Michael, I think disclosure is a very personal thing.  We all end up doing what we feel is right it the end, no matter who says what about it.  I myself wouldn't disclose until I figured out if I was interested in the person or not (sex wise or relationship wise).  I hope you have fun, my friend!  You better let us know how the date goes, I'll be thinking of you next Saturday. :-*
I've never killed anyone, but I frequently get satisfaction reading the obituary notices.-Clarence Darrow

Offline bear60

  • Member
  • Posts: 4,104
Re: Beating the Disclosure topic into the dirt
« Reply #8 on: February 23, 2008, 11:36:39 AM »
Michael
Frankly, I would refrain from telling your date any Saab stories. Especially the one about being stranded when the car wouldnt start and having to walk 5 miles to the nearest phone because you dont have a cell phone. Have the best day!  ::) ;D
Love
Joel
Poz Bear Type in Philadelphia

Offline Buckmark

  • Member
  • Posts: 1,531
  • Would you like to tie me up with your ties, Ty?
    • Henry's Home Page
Re: Beating the Disclosure topic into the dirt
« Reply #9 on: February 23, 2008, 12:03:44 PM »
Michael,

I think it is fair to say that a gay man in his late 40s in San Francisco (or anywhere else) should be aware of HIV issues.  If not, and he's single, he must be living under a rock.  Or he's just incredibly naive or uninformed.  Either way, though, if HIV status is so important to him, he should have brought it up by now.  If he hasn't, or if your HIV status does matter to him, he's probably not the man for you (I know -- that's so cliche).

Of course, at some point you will want to disclose.  But when?  Of course that's a personal choice.  I don't think I'd disclose via email.  I might suggest that you try not to think too far ahead about when to disclose, or anything else for that matter.  Just enjoy this first date with him.  If you feel comfortable with him, I'm sure you'll find the appropriate time to bring it up.  Maybe it will be the first date; maybe the second; maybe the third.  But there's no onus on you to disclose your HIV status (or anything else) for that matter, until the time is right.  Of course, when you do feel close to someone, I think you don't want to wait too long to share important things like this.

Some people like to disclose sooner, because they believe they don't waste time on people who can't handle it.  Another reason to disclose sooner is that, for some, keeping it a secret gets in the way of forming the relationship itself.  Some people like to disclose later because they believe doing it sooner kind of labels them, and that gets in the way of someone learning about their various facets.  I can see both perspectives.

For what it is worth, I also don't indicate in my online profiles whether I am HIV+.  It just amazes me how many gay men are still obsessed and afraid of someone's HIV+ status.  If a profile has a checkbox for that, I'd like it to have a checkbox for other STDs too.  While we're at it, how about a checkbox for one's "liar" and "cheater" status.    ::)  You see where I'm going here -- I'm a big enough boy to *ask* folks about these things -- and I expect others to be able to ask me, too, if it is important to them.   Then again, I'm a fine one to be giving advice, as I haven't gone on a date in year.   :-X

Of course, you realize we will all be waiting to hear how you're date went!   ;)

Hugs,

Henry
"Life in Lubbock, Texas, taught me two things:
     One is that God loves you and you're going to burn in hell.
     The other is that sex is the most awful, filthy thing on earth and you should save it for someone you love."
- Butch Hancock, Musician, The Flatlanders

Offline BlueMoon

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  • Posts: 665
  • Calling from the Fun House
Re: Beating the Disclosure topic into the dirt
« Reply #10 on: February 23, 2008, 06:02:43 PM »
I haven't had to deal with this problem yet, but I would not have sex with anyone without first disclosing my condition. 

Since the goal here is a relationship based on trust and including sex, I don't think it's right to make assumptions about what the other guy is assuming.  I would go ahead and have that first date, but I would disclose before discussing a second one. 
...................VL.....CD4.....%
-----------------------------------------
08/10-- ......<40.....290.....42
05/10-- ......<48.....290.....46
02/10-- ......<48.....481.....44
10/09-- ......<48.....277.....46
07/09-- ......<48.....300.....38
05/09-- ........51.....449.....39
03/09-- Added Isentress
02/09-- ........65.....299.....34
11/08-- ........62.....242.....40
08/08-- ........66.....212.....29
05/08-- ......202.....217.....27
03/08-- ....5210.....187.....21
02/08-- Began Truvada/Reyataz/Norvir
12/07-- 273,000.....157.....22
11/07-- 229,000.....209.....22
10/07-- Diagnosis

It's a complex world.

Offline MOONLIGHT1114

  • Member
  • Posts: 1,918
  • Cheech 2.2.94 - 4.23.10 We miss you so much!
Re: Beating the Disclosure topic into the dirt
« Reply #11 on: February 23, 2008, 07:07:35 PM »
Hi Michael~

Funny you should bring this up, after I posted at length about disclosure in the Dating Thread (Women's Forum) just today.

I always say that we (pozzies) have a right to choose.  Who's to say you may meet this man and he's not what you thought?  YOU have a right to choose while still keeping your status private.  If, after a few dates, there is mutual interest, then that's when I have disclosed.  Its just my opinion, and what I have felt comfortable with.

I have been in a relationship with a neggie for 3-1/2 months now, and he disclosed some VERY personal info on our FIRST date.  I was so happy, because he was sharing something very personal, prob thinking that I may reject HIM.  I disclosed on the third date and we have been very happy together.

"You have the best DATE."   ;D

~ Cindy
HIV+ since '93, 1/12 - CD4 785 and undet.   WOO-HOO!!

Offline Oceanbeach

  • Member
  • Posts: 3,565
Re: Beating the Disclosure topic into the dirt
« Reply #12 on: February 23, 2008, 09:51:59 PM »
Hi everyone,

These personals profiles are about as worthless as the day is long.  I remember a guy in Napa who got 20 years older than his photo on the way to our date.  There was another in Fresno who sent a "newer" photo before our first date and he had misrepresented himself by gaining a few years and a lot of weight.  Then, there was the contractor guy who said he was divorced and I ended up becoming better friends with his wife.  She always answered his phone and I like her.

Before I moved to Sonoma County from Lake County, my friend Adam pointed out a man in the gaysonoma site which he thought would be a great match for me.  I sent Tim an email from that site and over the years he has become one of my closest and platonic gay friends.  He has put in for a job transfer to Atlanta and is moving in with someone he has met in a different dating site.  Tim was and still is on several sites and is open about his status on all of the sites.

I never once even looked at one of the dating sites when I was living in L.A..  I lived in what they call the "Gay Ghetto" of Long Beach, I had many close friends and my "dance card" was always full.  I became HIV positive in 1994 in that neighborhood, we talked about it openly on the street corners and the coffee houses and bars.  It was much like we all do here on AIDSmeds but in person.  HIV has become a part of who I am as is the past few years with the local funding issues.  The website, press releases, the Commission on AIDS and speaking opportunities locally on HIV issues is largely who I am and what I do.  Bathroom emergency   Be right back  ;D Ok that's out of the way...  With that and PN, there are some obvious signs that Sonomabeach is not the perfect picture of health.  Going out hiking, mountain climbing or dancing is not really an option.  We all know living with HIV has its compromises.

We are meeting at the Marina on Saturday for an early dinner on a sailboat.  I will be stopping at one of the little unknown wineries in Sonoma County to select a bottle of either a Cabernet Sauvignon or a Pinot Noir, something special.  I have received another email, he has something important he wishes to talk with me about and it "should be done in person, not online, not over the phone and not before we meet."  Talk about an attention getter... could he be a hundred pounds heavier than his photo as the guy in Fresno?  Could he be 20 years older as was the guy in Napa?  Married to an incredible woman as the contractor was?

This is my bet... According to AIDS Project Los Angeles (1994) and the San Francisco AIDS Foundation (2003), 60% of all gay men living in metropolitan areas are HIV+, whether they know it or not.  I'm betting he is within that 60% and is also worried about disclosure.  ;D  Thank you all so much for your time and support on this topic... Have the best day
Michael 
« Last Edit: February 23, 2008, 10:40:51 PM by Sonomabeach »

Offline Robert

  • Member
  • Posts: 2,646
Re: Beating the Disclosure topic into the dirt
« Reply #13 on: February 24, 2008, 12:50:23 AM »
Well, here's what I think Michael.

I read the other day the Fidel finally quit his job as Premier.  So where is he now?

robert
..........

Offline Oceanbeach

  • Member
  • Posts: 3,565
Re: Beating the Disclosure topic into the dirt
« Reply #14 on: February 24, 2008, 02:25:40 AM »
Hey Robert,

I too was thinking about the man with the beard recently.  I had a Spanish teacher in high school.  Mrs. Otero and her husband had recently moved from Havana.  Both Mr. and Mrs. Otero were children of plantation owners, had gotten degrees in Law and set up practice in Havana.  If I recall, both families had been friends with Fidel and the Oteros' went to college together.

When the family plantations were taken away the Oteros decided to move to America.  They flew from Havana to Mexico and then to Miami.  They could not practice Law in the US and their English was not really very good but, they became High School Spanish teachers and moved to California and worked in neighboring school districts.  It was really fun, trying to learn Spanish from a woman trying to learn English.  I got straight A's for 4 years.

Within a year or two out of High School, I find myself living in Spain.  On my first day in Madrid, I was walking across the street on Jose Antonio and a matronly woman, dressed in black and her hair up in a bun... grabbed my arm and asked, "Serior, Por Favor?"  Oh shit, 4 years in a language class with straight A's and I could not speak the language  ;D  Somewhere after taking a flight to Mexico, to connect to Miami and then on to California... Fidel is probably teaching Spanish to some high school kids  ;D Have the best day
Michael

Offline Oceanbeach

  • Member
  • Posts: 3,565
Re: Beating the Disclosure topic into the dirt
« Reply #15 on: March 06, 2008, 07:40:46 PM »
With the proposed Mr. Right having the flu since our first date night and not having met yet... We have been writing to each other every day.  I have not run out of bad jokes, stupid one liners and can still craft a silly story with the best of them.  I have been trying to keep my new but sick friend happy since, I can't make chicken soup.  ;D  I thought I'd run low on material by now but no, not me.

This morning he writes about his symptoms, how much he still wants to meet me and that he does not know if he is contagious.  Labs appointment could have not come at a better time because this gives me a few minutes with a Nurse to ask about possible infections.  Our Nurse said the chance of infection with the flu passes before the person who has the flu gets the first symptoms.  Nurse Steve also said if something happens to fall into my mouth, I know what to do.  Well, I haven't been on a date for about 10 years butI guess  it is like falling off a bike, once you learn, you never forget how.

This weekend, I am going to have dinner with a man in San Francisco who may still feel like crap warmed over but can laugh at my jokes.  Have the best day
Michael

« Last Edit: March 06, 2008, 07:43:24 PM by Sonomabeach »

Offline Queen Tokelove

  • Member
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  • Smokey the Smurf
Re: Beating the Disclosure topic into the dirt
« Reply #16 on: March 06, 2008, 10:58:32 PM »
Have a nice dinner. I take it since your friend is sick that you will be doing the cooking? If so, any ideas on what you are going to fix? I'd say keep it light whatever you decide for the sake of his poor tummy.
Started Atripla/Ziagen on 9/13/07.
10/31/07 CD4-265 VL- undetectable
2/6/08 CD4- 401 VL- undetectable
5/7/08 CD4- 705 VL- undetectable
6/4/08 CD4- 775 VL- undetectable
8/6/08 CD4- 805 VL- undetectable
11/13/08 CD4- 774 VL--undetectable
2/4/09  CD4- 484  VL- 18,000 (2 months off meds)
3/3/09---Starting Back on Meds---
4/27/09 CD4- 664 VL-- undetectable
6/17/09 CD4- 438 VL- 439
8/09 CD4- 404 VL- 1,600
01-22-10-- CD4- 525 VL- 59,000
Cherish the simple things life has to offer

The Royal Blog

Offline Snowangel

  • Member
  • Posts: 1,413
Re: Beating the Disclosure topic into the dirt
« Reply #17 on: March 06, 2008, 11:09:41 PM »
YEAH, Michael.
Hopefully ,he will feel better by Saturday and can give you some laughs.  I hope you have lots of fun!
Snow
Of all the things you wear, your expression is the most important

The heaviest thing you can carry is a grudge..

One thing you can give and still keep...is your word.

One thing you can't recycle is wasted time.

Offline BT65

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Re: Beating the Disclosure topic into the dirt
« Reply #18 on: March 07, 2008, 07:52:47 AM »
Michael, I expect a full report post-date.
I've never killed anyone, but I frequently get satisfaction reading the obituary notices.-Clarence Darrow

Offline Oceanbeach

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Re: Beating the Disclosure topic into the dirt
« Reply #19 on: March 07, 2008, 03:30:56 PM »
Hi Everyone,

We meet tomorrow at the De Young in GG Park.  I once made reservations 6 months in advance for the Getty in L.A. for a special date but that was another man in another life.  ;D  Haven't been to the DeYoung since a college field trip and that was in another century  ;D ;D ;D.  Tomorrow, there will be photos (late tomorrow) Have the best day
Michael

Offline Oceanbeach

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Re: Beating the Disclosure topic into the dirt (Panic attack)
« Reply #20 on: March 07, 2008, 06:47:44 PM »
Ok, now, I'm feeling kind of sick...I know, I can't be the person I once was and will probably never have what was once me but... Is it totally rediculous to even think of building a new life/relationship at 56 years old and having AIDS?

I have heard the term "AIDS ridden faggot" so many times over the past year from "Drop-a-dime-Don" who was supposed to be be my closest friend and similar insults from Ms. Seabreeze within the same period of time, I can barely believe any person could even like me.  My picture is current, my profile was fun,  I have two weeks worth of laughing and fun email but... with PN, Lypodystrophy and whatever, it is kind of obvious that within two steps toward the museum door, all things are not what they seem.  Was it Peggy Lee who used to sing, "Is that all there is, well let's keep dancing and bring down the moon"?  Have the best day
Michael

Offline bear60

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Re: Beating the Disclosure topic into the dirt
« Reply #21 on: March 08, 2008, 10:39:28 AM »
Michael
......................... waiting for the report on the date! Hope it was ok.

Joel
Poz Bear Type in Philadelphia

Offline Oceanbeach

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Re: Beating the Disclosure topic into the dirt
« Reply #22 on: March 08, 2008, 10:54:56 AM »
Leaving in an hour...  ;D  Went to sleep last night with the realization, I had built someone up in my own mind as super human, when in reality, he is just a great guy.  I had the same problem going to AMG in San Francisco and almost turned the car around three times before arriving.  Of course, I got there to meet the most wonderful people in the world and had the best day.  ;D ;D ;D  Have the best day
Michael
(who will be home by morning)

Offline bear60

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Re: Beating the Disclosure topic into the dirt
« Reply #23 on: March 08, 2008, 11:00:38 AM »
Oh..sorry...brain fog...thought your date was LAST night.  Ok, well, have the best date ever tonite and be sure to let us know  how it went.
Seriously.....enjoy yourself!
Poz Bear Type in Philadelphia

Offline Oceanbeach

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Re: Beating the Disclosure topic into the dirt
« Reply #24 on: March 08, 2008, 06:16:05 PM »
Well here it is... 3:03 PM on date day and I am already home from San Francisco.  I arrived at the museum a little early, traffic was light and I found street parking.  I walked past the Rose Garden and slowly meandered toward the DeYoung front door.  I could not remember which sculpture we were supposed to meet at so I checked them all, waited awhile and checked again.

There was an interesting crack in the tile work leading to the front door which also went through all the large stones in the courtyard (another sculpture).

We were supposed to meet at Noon, I was there at 11:30 and kept checking the sculpture garden and all the various pieces on three sides of the building.  Walter was not there anywhere so I get back into my car and drive home.  I check my email and there is nothing but just out of mild curiosity, I double checked the original invitation to find which sculpture we were supposed to meet by and find... It was a painting inside the building and not a sculpture, I never went inside.  I have forwrded my apologies and really don't expect to hear from him again.  Have the best day
Michael
« Last Edit: March 08, 2008, 06:17:40 PM by Sonomabeach »

Offline bear60

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Re: Beating the Disclosure topic into the dirt
« Reply #25 on: March 08, 2008, 06:48:13 PM »
Oh dear, Michael.
But it was a mistake.  I've done that before.
Call it brain fog.
Cant you apologize and try again?
Deep breath.

Joel
Poz Bear Type in Philadelphia

Offline Oceanbeach

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Re: Beating the Disclosure topic into the dirt
« Reply #26 on: March 08, 2008, 07:50:38 PM »
Hey Joel,

Other than me feeling stupid, things have a way of working out.  Can you imagine being about 50 feet from a person you really want to meet and not having a number to call?  Taken care of and we are trying again tomorrow.  I would like to see one of the exhibits at the De Young and I also suggested him picking me up at my house, we go wine tasting and a river adventure.  Something like a beach fire and some terrific red.  Anyways, that's tomorrow.  ;D Have the best day
Michael

Offline Oceanbeach

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Re: Beating the Disclosure topic into the dirt
« Reply #27 on: March 09, 2008, 09:48:35 PM »
We met today at the DeYoung (both of us outside at the same time same place).  We spent the day in the park with his dog.  I left Kaiser at home.  I chose a couple of photos of Walter, one where, I got him to copy the pose on a bronze I liked.  I also caught one of his smiles.

Throughout the afternoon, he offered to wait while I explore a place where he could not go because his dog would not be welcomed.  Each time, I offered to wait because the GG Park was a special place to both of us and we could explore later and see some of the exhibits while the dogs are home.

As I started this topic on disclosure, we did have that conversation.  Since we met on a dating site and both have intentions of finding someone for life with the white picket fence and death do us part, it seemed best to throw it out for discussion.  He said he is negative after 20 years openly gay in San Francisco and has concerns about me in relation to watching me die like so many of his friends in the past and possibly becoming infected by me.   Enough of that for one day and we will talk more about it later.

We went on for the rest of the day with fun stories and future plans together.  We smoked a little medicinal herb called Purple Urkel, after all, I had to take a Trizivir and why lose an hour feeling bad when I am in the company of someone I really like.  ;D ;D ;D Have the best day
Michael

[attachment deleted by admin]

Offline thunter34

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Re: Beating the Disclosure topic into the dirt
« Reply #28 on: March 09, 2008, 09:58:45 PM »
what a fabulous little journey you are taking us on, Michael.

keep us posted, babe!
AIDS isn't for sissies.

Offline Basquo

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Re: Beating the Disclosure topic into the dirt
« Reply #29 on: March 09, 2008, 10:07:11 PM »
Michael, that's great! He sounds like a genuine and open guy. The internet is a wonder, isn't it, you're posting pictures taken in a place several of us spent time in this past summer--and we all met online and you met this guy online...oh, hell I don't know where I'm going with this but thanks for sharing!

 :-*
Creighton

Offline Snowangel

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Re: Beating the Disclosure topic into the dirt
« Reply #30 on: March 09, 2008, 11:19:39 PM »
Michael,
Sounds like you had a wonderful day! He seems like a great guy and I really like the pics.  Thanks for sharing.  Snow
Of all the things you wear, your expression is the most important

The heaviest thing you can carry is a grudge..

One thing you can give and still keep...is your word.

One thing you can't recycle is wasted time.

Offline Oceanbeach

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Re: Beating the Disclosure topic into the dirt
« Reply #31 on: March 10, 2008, 02:48:02 AM »
Thank you, Thank you,

I did meet him on a gay dating site the day after the lunar eclipse.   We have been emailing every day for the past couple of weeks and... today was our first real life meeting.  Kind of makes me want to break out in song... I have contacted Chris Riddle, Nephew of Nelson Riddle and Anthony Terran for the trumpet solo... They have agreed so,

"How glad the many millions, of Toms and Dicks and Williams, would be, to capture me
But Hugh had such persistance, Hugh wore down my resistance, I fell and it was swell

You're my big and brave and handsome romeo, how I won Hugh, I'll never never know

It's not than I'm attractive but oh my heart grew active, when Hugh came into view

I've got a crush on Hugh, sweetie pie
All the day and night time, hear me sigh

I never had the least notion
That I could folly so much emotion
(Chorus)
Could Hugh coo, could Hugh care?
For a cunning cottage, we could share?

The world will pardon my mush
Cause I have got a crush, my baby on Hugh

(The trumpet solo by Anthony Terran is very tasty)

(Final chorus)

Could Hugh coo, could Hugh care
for a cunning cottage, we could share

The world will pardon my mush
Cause, I have got a crush, my baby on Hugh

This Sustiva torch song moment was brought to you by the drug company... Glaxo Smith Klein  ;D ;D ;D Have the best day
Michael
« Last Edit: March 10, 2008, 02:50:47 AM by Sonomabeach »

Offline BT65

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Re: Beating the Disclosure topic into the dirt
« Reply #32 on: March 10, 2008, 08:25:29 AM »
Michael, I'm so glad you had a good time.  I've been sitting on pins and needles, ya know. ;)
I've never killed anyone, but I frequently get satisfaction reading the obituary notices.-Clarence Darrow

Offline bear60

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Re: Beating the Disclosure topic into the dirt
« Reply #33 on: March 10, 2008, 12:12:29 PM »
Me too! Been sitting on pins and needles!!! It looks like all is well with Michael and thats the best news.
I am a bit confused Michael.  The photos are of who ( you and him ) ? Maybe I didnt read carefully enough.
Joel
Poz Bear Type in Philadelphia

Offline Oceanbeach

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Re: Beating the Disclosure topic into the dirt
« Reply #34 on: March 10, 2008, 01:35:52 PM »
Speaking of needles and pins...I thought this sculpture seemed out of place but two ladies saw this one and guessed the sculptress and they were correct  ;D Both photos are of Walter, My most recent is on the avatar  ;D Have the best day
Michael

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Offline bear60

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Re: Beating the Disclosure topic into the dirt
« Reply #35 on: March 10, 2008, 02:44:34 PM »
Michael
He is so handsome!
About the sculpture.....ok who is the sculptress?  We have the Claes Oldenberg "CLOTHS PIN" here in Philly. This seems so much along the same line. I am drawing a blank on sculptresses.
When is the next date?

Joel
Poz Bear Type in Philadelphia

Offline Oceanbeach

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Re: Beating the Disclosure topic into the dirt
« Reply #36 on: March 10, 2008, 05:39:03 PM »
Michael
He is so handsome!
About the sculpture.....ok who is the sculptress?  We have the Claes Oldenberg "CLOTHS PIN" here in Philly. This seems so much along the same line. I am drawing a blank on sculptresses.
When is the next date?

Joel

I think she is the sculptress, after one of the ladies commented on the giant safety pin, I did check the name and Olenberg does sound familiar.

I do not know today when our next date is... Walter went rather silent after my disclosure and did pick back up again.  When we left, he did insist on driving me to my car (two blocks away) and we kissed in traffic on Fulton and 10 Ave.  We are going to have a phone visit later this week about plans for next weekend.  He also still has flu symptoms.

Tim Horn started a thread recently about studies done on HIV transmission, with the POZ partner being undetectable.  Since I have had an undetectable VL since 1998, I would like to share this with Walter because of his concerns.  There was also something Ann had said recently about emergency room treatment if the condom breaks.  I have some research to do but have invited Walter to spend next weekend here on the river.

In 12 years with AIDS, I have never passed the virus on to another human being, but the past 8 years, I have spent totally alone, every day and every night.  Now, I have met someone whom I perceive, I would like to grow old with and if I did pass that on, how could I live with myself.  Have the best day
Michael

Offline BT65

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Re: Beating the Disclosure topic into the dirt
« Reply #37 on: March 10, 2008, 06:28:26 PM »
Michael, if you find the links, would you please post them?  I would be interested in reading them.  I think I read something from Ann about it, but I just can't remember where it was at. 

I've never killed anyone, but I frequently get satisfaction reading the obituary notices.-Clarence Darrow

Offline Oceanbeach

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Re: Beating the Disclosure topic into the dirt
« Reply #38 on: March 10, 2008, 10:17:07 PM »
Well, that sure ended clean and fast.  I just received email thanking me for the two trips to San Francisco and all the fun we had, my photographic skills and my computer skills but... Walter just does not feel we can be romantically involved.  Must have been the honesty and timing in my disclosure.  Oh well, another day in paradise.  Have the best day
Michael

Offline Queen Tokelove

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Re: Beating the Disclosure topic into the dirt
« Reply #39 on: March 10, 2008, 10:30:21 PM »
Damn Michael, I was so hoping it was going to work out. :'(
Started Atripla/Ziagen on 9/13/07.
10/31/07 CD4-265 VL- undetectable
2/6/08 CD4- 401 VL- undetectable
5/7/08 CD4- 705 VL- undetectable
6/4/08 CD4- 775 VL- undetectable
8/6/08 CD4- 805 VL- undetectable
11/13/08 CD4- 774 VL--undetectable
2/4/09  CD4- 484  VL- 18,000 (2 months off meds)
3/3/09---Starting Back on Meds---
4/27/09 CD4- 664 VL-- undetectable
6/17/09 CD4- 438 VL- 439
8/09 CD4- 404 VL- 1,600
01-22-10-- CD4- 525 VL- 59,000
Cherish the simple things life has to offer

The Royal Blog

Offline Snowangel

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Re: Beating the Disclosure topic into the dirt
« Reply #40 on: March 10, 2008, 11:29:59 PM »
Me, too!  Sorry to hear that Michael.
Snow
Of all the things you wear, your expression is the most important

The heaviest thing you can carry is a grudge..

One thing you can give and still keep...is your word.

One thing you can't recycle is wasted time.

Offline Longislander

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Re: Beating the Disclosure topic into the dirt
« Reply #41 on: March 10, 2008, 11:49:47 PM »
aww Michael, I'm sorry to hear the ending.  But please remember, you met a nice, sincere man online, and you had a great date and some fun. Don't let this stop you!!

Paul
infected 10/05 diagnosed 12-05
2/06   379/57000                    6/07 372/30500 25%   4/09 640/U/32% 
5/06   ?? /37000                     8/07 491/55000/24%    9/09 913/U/39%
8/06   349/9500 25%              11/07 515/68000/24     2/10 845/U/38%
9/06   507/16,000 30% !          2/08  516/116k/22%    7/10 906/80/39%
12/06 398/29000 26%             Start Atripla 3/08
3/07   402/80,000 29%            4/08  485/undet!/27
4/07   507/35,000 25%            7/08 625/UD/34%
                                                 11/08 684/U/36%

Offline sharkdiver

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Re: Beating the Disclosure topic into the dirt
« Reply #42 on: March 11, 2008, 01:17:43 AM »
Ah crap Michael,

I don't know what to say, except sorry that it was so quick.

hugs,

sharkie

Offline Dragonette

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Re: Beating the Disclosure topic into the dirt
« Reply #43 on: March 11, 2008, 05:48:47 AM »
sorry to hear.  :(

his loss.
"If you keep one foot in yesterday, and one in tomorrow, you piss all over today". Betty Tacy

Offline BT65

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Re: Beating the Disclosure topic into the dirt
« Reply #44 on: March 11, 2008, 07:28:46 AM »
Oh Michael, I am so sorry about that.  I'm glad you found out now instead of later, though.  You hang in there, my friend.  You are a catch in my eyes. :-*
  Luv,
Betty
I've never killed anyone, but I frequently get satisfaction reading the obituary notices.-Clarence Darrow

Offline wishful

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Re: Beating the Disclosure topic into the dirt
« Reply #45 on: March 11, 2008, 09:39:17 AM »
Sorry to hear that Michael  :(..Definitely his loss
Live life to the fullest...

Offline bear60

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Re: Beating the Disclosure topic into the dirt
« Reply #46 on: March 11, 2008, 10:28:46 AM »
Well, Michael.
Its too bad that it ended like this but I guess its good that you were up front with him and disclosed early on.  Better to do it before choosing the china pattern....we always said in support group.


Have a peaceful day ....u deserve it
Joel
Poz Bear Type in Philadelphia

Offline Robert

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Re: Beating the Disclosure topic into the dirt
« Reply #47 on: March 11, 2008, 12:26:38 PM »
aw michael.

now listen.  "...just another day in paradise?"  ~~  Hardly.  You had a couple of great visits and met a wonderful guy.

And you're just going to give up? Now what if you had turned around that day last Sept in SF?  You would have never met us 'fabulous' people here at AM.  AMG has turned out to be a great experience for all of us.  You didn't give up then so why give up now?  Forget the romantic bullshit for now.  Call him up and meet for lunch again.  Send emails.  Pictures of Kaiser.  Life on the River.  Keep the interest going and I bet you can turn him.  Persistence works wonders.

That's what my partner Michael did to me 27 years ago.  I was on the rebound and absolutely not in the mood for love.  He won.

robert
..........

Offline Oceanbeach

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Re: Beating the Disclosure topic into the dirt
« Reply #48 on: March 11, 2008, 07:21:47 PM »
Michael,

I think it is fair to say that a gay man in his late 40s in San Francisco (or anywhere else) should be aware of HIV issues.  If not, and he's single, he must be living under a rock.  Or he's just incredibly naive or uninformed.  Either way, though, if HIV status is so important to him, he should have brought it up by now.  If he hasn't, or if your HIV status does matter to him, he's probably not the man for you (I know -- that's so cliche).

Of course, at some point you will want to disclose.  But when?  Of course that's a personal choice.  I don't think I'd disclose via email.  I might suggest that you try not to think too far ahead about when to disclose, or anything else for that matter.  Just enjoy this first date with him.  If you feel comfortable with him, I'm sure you'll find the appropriate time to bring it up.  Maybe it will be the first date; maybe the second; maybe the third.  But there's no onus on you to disclose your HIV status (or anything else) for that matter, until the time is right.  Of course, when you do feel close to someone, I think you don't want to wait too long to share important things like this.


Disclosure seemed like the best possible thing at the time because activism in HIV issues has been such an important part of my life.  I have pretty much given up on trying to invoke change is Sonoma County because in three years, I have learned they will always do business the way they have always done.  They will always form a committee and neglect the most important component of that committee.  They will always stop short after receiving some public relations value on any given project.  I have rechanneled my energy to open up my little project company in workers' comp and I'm doing OK for a start up project.

I was in charge of training business to business telemarketers when I was diagnosed with HIV in 1994.  Six months later promoted to VP, retained that position in a merger and had 11 territories answering to me from the Los Angeles office.  In my radio talk show, I featured Governor Wilson, Mayor Riordan, Congressman Mountjoy (several times) and any one of 200 movers and shakers in Southern California business on a drive time show with several toll free call-in numbers for the audience to participate.  I lost all of that with my AIDS diagnosis in 1996 and as you all know, I have had to work for everything I have and I usually win.  Sorry Sonoma County lost their $1.7 million RWCA funding but, I did put the tools in their hands, you all supported that and they dropped the ball and lost our money.

Walter is an attorney, he is direct and to the point, almost arrogant and is paid to argue in court.  These guys expect to win, all the "t's" are crossed while all the "i's" are dotted.  The outcome is sometimes negotiable and are driven individuals.  I am quite the catch, he knows it and I'm a bit driven myself.  Perhaps in his 20 years in San Francisco, as an openly gay man, he has chosen to be more sheltered than what is believable and has unrealistic ideas of what to expect in terms of positive/negative relationships and needs an education on real life with HIV.  Am I up to the challenge?  Really don't know today but tomorrow is not eliminated yet.

Being, he is direct and to the point, his email could be interpreted to mean, not romantically inclined today, says nothing about future or other social or professional relationship.   I was stunning and if it wasn't for HIV, he would secretly be looking at diamonds by next week.  As an activist and as an openly gay man living with HIV, I would be more interested if he were to volunteer lawyer time to any of the ASO's in San Francisco for people with landlord/tenant or other housing issues.  I stand behing my original thoughts that he is a good person and he is scared of HIV.  Having had the weeks of email which he sees as delightful, he is missing me today.

Tomorrow, I will send a little fiction story which I haven't finished yet but I am crafting Fabio as the "International 'I can't believe it not butter' Queen".  With apologies to our Queen because she is the real Queen while Fabio will be portrayed as an impostor Queen.  Also, apologies to the Beverly Center, Woody Allen, Bette Midler and International Male for their parts in his skyrocketing career to the margarine commercials. ;D ;D ;D
If I give him a good laugh or two, he may lighten up, if not, tourist season starts next month on the river and there'll be many men coming to meet me (yeah right)  ;D  Anyways, thank you everyone and... have the best day
Michael

Offline Oceanbeach

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Re: Beating the Disclosure topic into the dirt ** Walter responds**
« Reply #49 on: March 18, 2008, 04:08:13 PM »
Walter wrote today.  Feeling a special bond between us and our mutual appreciation for the written word, he feels energized by communicating with me.

He does not pretend to understand my feelings about HIV or where I am emotionally, but for him, the scars of AIDS are deep, fresh and painful.  He wrote of sitting alone and having imaginary conversations with friends and family who have died of AIDS and not being able to remember all of their names or even how many there are.  He apologizes if I think it may be unreasonable or selfish of him, but he refuses to invite more pain into his life.  Although he would never reject a friend in need (and that includes me), he is very careful about what he allows into his life at this point in time.

He fondly closes by saying, perhaps this will prove to be a bad decision on his part, but the decision is all he is capable of making at this time.

I can live with this, If I had caught Walter at a "Catch and Release stream" such as the Rainbow Cattle Company  (a gay bar in Guerneville), I could give him back to the government agency which issues boyfriends (if there were such an agency), toss a salad, toss my hair and toss him back.  By now, I have perceived Walter as being somewhere between a super hero and a mortal man, I have disclosed way too soon.  People in his line of work do not leave openings (he has) and people in my (former) line of work find objections to close a deal.  Let's see what happens next?   ;D ;D ;D Have the best day
Michael

 


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