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Author Topic: Supplement Suggestions?  (Read 10825 times)

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Offline HarryUK

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Supplement Suggestions?
« on: February 03, 2008, 05:25:51 PM »
Hey Everyone,

This will be my first Post here, and boy am I glad I found this Forum. I have been a right mess the last few weeks and need some advice about various things so I can get my head straight.

First Question - Can anyone recommend a basic Supplement program for people who are HIV? I want to keep it simple and effective, rather than going mad and doing more harm than good (if not to my health, then to my wallet).
The list I have come up with so far goes as follows ;

Green Tea Extract
B Vitamin Complex
Selenium
No Iron Mens Multi Vitamin and Mineral
Fish Oil

How does this sound? And what sort of doses would I take the above Supplements in?

Id really appreciate any response / info right now  :)
09/07/07 - CD4 355 VL 13,359
08/08/07 - CD4 458 VL 123
15/11/07 - CD4 455 VL <40

Offline Ann

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Re: Supplement Suggestions?
« Reply #1 on: February 04, 2008, 03:40:29 PM »
Hi Harry, and welcome to the forums.

The ONLY thing that has been PROVEN to have an effect on hiv infection is antiretroviral medication. There is a lack of studies on the subject matter of suppliments.

You might want to have a look through the other threads in the Nutrition and HIV forum for further information on suppliments.


Ann
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline J.R.E.

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Re: Supplement Suggestions?
« Reply #2 on: February 04, 2008, 07:25:44 PM »
Hello,

I take everything that you just listed ( and then some) but I've been cycling different supplements for quite a while. This is my choice, people may agree, they may not, it's my decision.


The multi vitamin is Centrum ( no iron)


Sublingual liquid b-12-- 1cc ( eyedropper)

Fish oil (omega 3 ) 1000mg sometimes the 1200mg

Green tea extract-- Contains (total polyphenols--300mg)--Total Catechins--240mg


Selenium ( 200mcg)

Harry, I cycle different things regularly, the main thing is, my doctor knows everything that I take.

Whatever I cycle, I always make sure to take the multivitain daily.  I have also taken things that haven't agreed with me. buit in most cases  everything works OK for me. I also keep journal of what I take and when I take it.

The main thing is good nutrition. Try to eat properly !! Don't overdo it...


http://www.aidsmeds.com/articles/Nutrition_7670.shtml



Take care---Ray






Current Meds ; Viramune, Epzicom, 40mg of simvastatin, 12.5mg of Hydrochlorothiazide.
Metoprolol tartrate 25mg



http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=40802.0

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=45159.0

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=39722.msg495621;topicseen#msg495621

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=46806.0

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=39414.msg491701#msg491701


 In October of 2003, My t-cell count was 16, Viral load was over 500,000, Percentage at that time was 5%. I started my first  HAART regimen  on October 24th,03.

 As of 8/2514,  t-cells are at 402, Viral load <40

 Current % is at 11%

  
 62 years young.

Offline HarryUK

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Re: Supplement Suggestions?
« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2008, 07:56:07 PM »
Thanks Guys ;)
09/07/07 - CD4 355 VL 13,359
08/08/07 - CD4 458 VL 123
15/11/07 - CD4 455 VL <40

Offline madbrain

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Re: Supplement Suggestions?
« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2008, 09:05:19 PM »
Hi,


Hey Everyone,

This will be my first Post here, and boy am I glad I found this Forum. I have been a right mess the last few weeks and need some advice about various things so I can get my head straight.

First Question - Can anyone recommend a basic Supplement program for people who are HIV? I want to keep it simple and effective, rather than going mad and doing more harm than good (if not to my health, then to my wallet).
The list I have come up with so far goes as follows ;

Green Tea Extract
B Vitamin Complex
Selenium
No Iron Mens Multi Vitamin and Mineral
Fish Oil

How does this sound? And what sort of doses would I take the above Supplements in?

Id really appreciate any response / info right now  :)

There are studies showing that 200mcg of selenium reduces the VL, and multivitamin intake increases CD4 and lifespan. I take those on my doc's recommendation. Actually I take a multi that includes 200 mcg selenium, Now foods Adam superior multi.

The green tea studies that show benefit for HIV were in vitro only. There is no evidence that it helps in people with HIV yet. I have been taking some on and off. Right now I take 800 mg of green tea extract a day in two capsules of 400 mg, with 50 % EGCG. I read enough studies to convince myself that this dose was safe for my health, if not for my wallet.

As far as the B vitamins, a good potent multivitamin should have enough of most B vitamins, so you should be able to skip a separate B complex. The only ones you may want to take a little bit more of are B12 and B6. I don't know that there is really a benefit for HIV except that there were some prevalent deficiencies in those 2. Get your levels checked if you can to see if it makes sense to supplement.

For the fish oil, there are lots of different kinds. Some have vitamin E, some omega-3, and some both. If yours has vitamin E, be careful not to take too much. Look at what your multi contains as far as vitamin E and add it up. The maximum tolerable dose for vitamin E is 1600 IU per day. But you don't want to take anywhere near as much. 400 IU per day is  good number.
I take 600 - 200 from the multi, and 400 separately. And I take omega-3 fish oil separately. There were some studies that showed that vitamin E and C can reduce HIV viral load. The dose was 800 IU a day together with 1000 mg of vitamin C.

If you are on HAART of course , as your number suggests you are, you may already have an undetectable VL already, so you may not need the supplement boost. So it may not be worth it to you. It probably won't hurt anything but your wallet, though. Personally since my doc is telling me to stay off HAART right now, I have chosen to take a lot of supplements in the hope that it will delay my need for HAART as long as possible.

Offline Iggy

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Re: Supplement Suggestions?
« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2008, 09:09:16 PM »
Mad,

please link the studies.

Offline indianhiv

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  • Posts: 15
Re: Supplement Suggestions?
« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2008, 10:30:16 PM »
We in India try out some Tulsi and Neem Capsules. They are good aurvedic antibiotics and boost up your immune. They are ayurvedic and does no harm to your body. This is till the time ART is started and is just a effort to increase cd4.


Offline redhotmuslbear

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Re: Supplement Suggestions?
« Reply #8 on: February 05, 2008, 10:34:03 AM »
Selenium :
http://archinte.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/167/2/148
This seems to be a more recent one. This confirms a previous study that came to the same conclusion last year.


The selenium studies with people with substance abuse and other adherence issues DO NOT prove that selenium fights HIV, but that selenium improves adherence.  The selenium supp manufacturers promoted the study and continue to tout it, but the headline is misleading if one reads the detailed outcomes.

David
"The real problem is not whether machines think but whether men do." - BF Skinner
12-31-09   222wks VL  2430 CD4 690 (37%)
09-30-09   208wks VL  2050  CD4 925 (42%)
06-25-08   143wks VL  1359  CD4 668 (32%)  CD8 885
02-11-08   123wks off meds:  VL 1364 CD4 892(40%/0.99 ratio)
10-19-07   112wks off meds:   VL 292  CD4 857(37%/0.85 ratio)

One copy of delta-32 for f*****d up CCR5 receptors, and an HLA B44+ allele for "CD8-mediated immunity"... beteer than winning Powerball, almost!

Offline madbrain

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Re: Supplement Suggestions?
« Reply #9 on: February 05, 2008, 06:51:28 PM »
David,


The selenium studies with people with substance abuse and other adherence issues DO NOT prove that selenium fights HIV, but that selenium improves adherence.

David

What does Selenium improve adherence to ?
To quote from this one study :

Findings remained significant after covarying age, sex, ethnicity, income, education, current and past cocaine and other drug use, HIV symptom classification, antiretroviral medication regimen and adherence, time since HIV diagnosis, and hepatitis C virus coinfection.

Here are a few more links to others :
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?db=pubmed&uid=10225235&cmd=showdetailview&indexed=google
http://grande.nal.usda.gov/ibids/index.php?mode2=detail&origin=ibids_references&therow=71949
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?db=pubmed&uid=8669404&cmd=showdetailview&indexed=google
http://www.jaids.org/pt/re/jaids/abstract.00126334-200104010-00013.htm;jsessionid=Hy1SrWG4wQ45dBzHn0z91d44wyR1bJpGZwTS7QqRNcnTXxZqwp5G!1138671057!181195629!8091!-1

I can't think of any supplement with more support about anti-HIV activity than selenium. Maybe that's not saying much. But it is still better than nothing. I know my doc is now recommending it to many patients.

Offline Oryan2008

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  • Posts: 11
Re: Supplement Suggestions?
« Reply #10 on: February 06, 2008, 09:30:57 AM »
When I was diagnosed with HIV I was 7 stone. I had two severe cases of food poisoning and had dropped two stone really quickly. The doctor has put me on effervescent multivitamins. 1000mg. Plus a regular vitamin tablet. I found that these are really helpful. I think the effervescent one is called Redox or something.

Oryan xx

Offline redhotmuslbear

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Re: Supplement Suggestions?
« Reply #11 on: February 06, 2008, 10:46:46 AM »
What does Selenium improve adherence to ?

To quote from this one study :  Findings remained significant after covarying age, sex, ethnicity, income, education, current and past cocaine and other drug use, HIV symptom classification, antiretroviral medication regimen and adherence, time since HIV diagnosis, and hepatitis C virus coinfection.

Here are a few more links to others :
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?db=pubmed&uid=10225235&cmd=showdetailview&indexed=google
http://grande.nal.usda.gov/ibids/index.php?mode2=detail&origin=ibids_references&therow=71949
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?db=pubmed&uid=8669404&cmd=showdetailview&indexed=google
http://www.jaids.org/pt/re/jaids/abstract.00126334-200104010-00013.htm;jsessionid=Hy1SrWG4wQ45dBzHn0z91d44wyR1bJpGZwTS7QqRNcnTXxZqwp5G!1138671057!181195629!8091!-1


Adherence to taking HIV meds!!!  However, having to take a selenium supplement surely provided a cue to take HAART meds for the study, so the value of that conclusion is suspect.

Thanks for quoting from a study.  That phrase linked selenium to adherence, not to reducing HIV on its own, though.

As for the studies, you're spewing a hodgepodge of links that DO NOT show a direct causal link between selenium supps and reduced HIV viral load.  There's a link there about viral shedding in the vagina, and one about survival outcomes, but NOTHING about a direct anti-retroviral effect of selenium.
"The real problem is not whether machines think but whether men do." - BF Skinner
12-31-09   222wks VL  2430 CD4 690 (37%)
09-30-09   208wks VL  2050  CD4 925 (42%)
06-25-08   143wks VL  1359  CD4 668 (32%)  CD8 885
02-11-08   123wks off meds:  VL 1364 CD4 892(40%/0.99 ratio)
10-19-07   112wks off meds:   VL 292  CD4 857(37%/0.85 ratio)

One copy of delta-32 for f*****d up CCR5 receptors, and an HLA B44+ allele for "CD8-mediated immunity"... beteer than winning Powerball, almost!

Offline Matty the Damned

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  • Ninja Please
Re: Supplement Suggestions?
« Reply #12 on: February 06, 2008, 12:32:09 PM »
As for the studies, you're spewing a hodgepodge of links that DO NOT show a direct causal link between selenium supps and reduced HIV viral load.  There's a link there about viral shedding in the vagina, and one about survival outcomes, but NOTHING about a direct anti-retroviral effect of selenium.

You know David, for somebody who puffs himself up and starts preaching the orthodoxy of HIV science, you have a pretty patchy record yourself.

Your contribution to this thread being just one example.

MtD

Offline Cerrid

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Re: Supplement Suggestions?
« Reply #13 on: February 06, 2008, 12:49:44 PM »
I want to keep it simple and effective, rather than going mad and doing more harm than good (if not to my health, then to my wallet).

If your diet has nutritional holes, the best thing you can do to your body is adding plenty of fresh veggies and fruits to your diet. Eat regularly and avoid processed food. Money spent on healthy food is far better invested than on supplements because a balanced diet contains all the things your body needs - and fills your tummy at the same time.  :)

"Boredom is always counterrevolutionary. Always." (Guy Debord)

Offline redhotmuslbear

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Re: Supplement Suggestions?
« Reply #14 on: February 06, 2008, 01:27:20 PM »
[You know David, for somebody who puffs himself up and starts preaching the orthodoxy of HIV science, you have a pretty patchy record yourself.

Your contribution to this thread being just one example.

MtD

WTF???!!!  "Science" requires a great measure of orthodoxy in the design of experiments and the collection and analysis of data, in order to draw sound conclusions.  One example of excellent work in that regard is the study published in 2003
"Alcohol Consumption and HIV Disease Progression: Are They Related?"

Results: No significant differences in CD4 cell count or HIV RNA level were found across the categories of alcohol consumption for patients who were not receiving HAART. However, among patients who were receiving HAART, log HIV RNA levels were significantly higher in those with moderate (2.17 copies/ml) and at-risk (2.73 copies/ml) alcohol use compared with none (1.73 copies/ml;p = 0.006). CD4 cell counts in those with moderate (368 cells/μl) and at-risk (360 cells/μl) alcohol use were lower than for subjects who reported none (426 cells/μl;p = 0.07).
-------------

We need to read and think critically about information that we encounter in the traditional media or when web-searching, and we need to caution others about drawing improper conclusions from what they read.  Otherwise, we might as well cut up a few lemons, sprinkle on some salt, shove it up our asses, and call it a cure.

Namaste,
David
"The real problem is not whether machines think but whether men do." - BF Skinner
12-31-09   222wks VL  2430 CD4 690 (37%)
09-30-09   208wks VL  2050  CD4 925 (42%)
06-25-08   143wks VL  1359  CD4 668 (32%)  CD8 885
02-11-08   123wks off meds:  VL 1364 CD4 892(40%/0.99 ratio)
10-19-07   112wks off meds:   VL 292  CD4 857(37%/0.85 ratio)

One copy of delta-32 for f*****d up CCR5 receptors, and an HLA B44+ allele for "CD8-mediated immunity"... beteer than winning Powerball, almost!

Offline allanq

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Re: Supplement Suggestions?
« Reply #15 on: February 06, 2008, 01:33:54 PM »
I agree with David on this.

I checked out the link to the abstract on Selenium Supplementation. The facts presented in the Results do not support the Conclusion.

The Conclusion paragraph of the abstract states:

Daily selenium supplementation can suppress the progression of HIV-1 viral burden and provide indirect improvement of CD4 count. The results support the use of selenium as a simple, inexpensive, and safe adjunct therapy in HIV spectrum disease.

However, the Results paragraph (just above the Conclusion) states that those not taking selenium supplementation "displayed poor treatment adherence," whereas those taking selenium "evidenced excellent treatment adherence."

This supports David's statement that the difference in results between the two groups was probably due to the better adherence of the group taking selenium, rather than to the effects of the selenium itself. There's nothing in the abstract that explains why the groups had different adherence levels, although David's explanation seems sensible to me: that for the group taking selenium, the selenium could have been a cue to remember to take their HIV meds.

I don't understand how a group of researchers that includes one M.D. and eight Ph.D.'s could have published something like this.

Allan
« Last Edit: February 06, 2008, 01:44:44 PM by allanq »
Top (Breakfast): Prezista, Norvir, Isentress, Zoloft (2), Glyburide (2), Aspirin
Bottom right (Dinner): Prezista, Norvir, Isentress
Bottom left (Bedtime): Sustiva, Trazodone (2), Lipitor, Septra (no longer taking this)
Center: Alprazolam (Xanax)
Not shown: various vitamins & supplements

Offline HarryUK

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Re: Supplement Suggestions?
« Reply #16 on: February 06, 2008, 04:05:59 PM »
Thanks so much for all your replies everyone, and thanks to those who PM'd me, unfortunatly I cannot respond via PM for some reason  ???

Im going to have a chat with my Doc about the info I have gathered and check her opinion on my Supplement plan.

 ;D
09/07/07 - CD4 355 VL 13,359
08/08/07 - CD4 458 VL 123
15/11/07 - CD4 455 VL <40

Offline Dachshund

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Re: Supplement Suggestions?
« Reply #17 on: February 08, 2008, 08:48:18 AM »
Thanks so much for all your replies everyone, and thanks to those who PM'd me, unfortunatly I cannot respond via PM for some reason  ???

Im going to have a chat with my Doc about the info I have gathered and check her opinion on my Supplement plan.

 ;D

To prevent spamming you need to post three times before you will be able to send a private message.

Offline Lorenzopier

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Re: Supplement Suggestions?
« Reply #18 on: April 07, 2008, 04:04:37 AM »

Offline risred1

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Re: Supplement Suggestions?
« Reply #19 on: April 09, 2008, 12:40:39 AM »
Selenium: Important New Review of Health Findings

by John S. James

July 28, 2000

Selenium is a mineral which is essential in human nutrition in very small amounts (larger amounts are toxic). New research, much in the last five years, is finding that selenium deficiency may be involved in many important diseases, including HIV. The fact that this mineral has been the subject of irresponsible promotion as a cure-all must not blind us to the real possibilities that proper supplementation may have value in disease prevention and treatment.

A major literature review (1) published this month in the Lancet offers a credible overview of what is known and not known at this time on selenium and human health. We were surprised by the strength of the case for more attention to supplementation as a possible treatment -- a medical intervention which would cost essentially nothing, so it could be available anywhere in the world.

Here are some quotes from the review (we did not include the references from the original). Note that all measurements are in micrograms, because of the very small amounts of selenium used in human nutrition -- about a thousand times less than the dose of most AIDS drugs.

    Concerning immune functions: "Supplementation with selenium, even in 'selenium-replete' individuals, has marked immunostimulant effects, including an enhancement of proliferation of activated T cells (clonal expansion). Lymphocytes from volunteers supplemented with selenium (assodium selenite) at 200 micrograms per day showed an enhanced response to antigen stimulation and an increased ability to develop into cytotoxic lymphocytes and to destroy tumor cells. Natural-killer-cell activity was also increased. Supplementation resulted in a 118% increase in cytotoxic-lymphocyte-mediated tumor cytotoxicity and an 82% increase in natural-killer-cell activity compared with baseline."

    Concerning HIV: "Selenium seems to be a crucial nutrient for HIV-infected individuals. It is a potent inhibitor of HIV replication in vitro. . . More than 20 papers report a progressive decline in plasma selenium in parallel with the on-going loss of CD4 T cells in HIV-1 infection. This decline in selenium occurs even in early stages of disease when malnutrition or malabsorption cannot be a factor. In fact, plasma selenium is a strong predictor of the outcome in HIV infection. Baum and colleagues showed that selenium-deficient HIV patients are nearly 20 times more likely (p<0.0001) to die from HIV-related causes than those with adequate levels . . . Baum and colleagues showed that low plasma selenium is a significantly greater risk factor for mortality than low helper-T-cell count, by a factor of 16, and confers a more significant risk than deficiency of any other nutrient investigated."

    Hepatitis: "Selenium also appears to be protective in individuals infected with hepatitis virus (B or C) against the progression of the condition to liver cancer."

    Pancreatitis: "In a small controlled trial in Rostock, Germany, intravenous administration of selenium to patients with acute necrotising pancreatitis reduced mortality from 89% in controls to zero in the treatment group."

    Cancer: Various studies have found more cancer or cancer deaths in persons with low selenium levels. For example, in a prospectively followed cohort of 34,000 men, "those in the lowest quintile [fifth] of selenium status, as measured by toenail selenium, were found to have three times the likelihood of developing advanced prostate cancer as those in the highest quintile (p for trend=0.03). Only cases diagnosed more than 2 years after collection of the samples were counted." [The reason for not counting earlier cases is to avoid confusion due to the possibility that the illness itself might cause the low selenium levels through poor intake, absorption, or metabolism of food.]

Other research has found effects of correcting selenium deficiency on mental status, tiredness, and mood -- and possibly on cardiovascular disease, although findings here have been mixed, perhaps because some of the trials included very few people with selenium deficiency.

    And a warning: "We must be careful not to encourage over-consumption of selenium supplements. While an intake of selenium of around 15 micrograms/kg bodyweight per day is thought to be without prolonged impact on human health, it must be remembered that selenium is a toxic mineral with a fairly small therapeutic window. In some sensitive individuals, the maximum safe dietary intake may be as low as 600 micrograms per day. It would therefore seem prudent to restrict adult intake from all sources to an upper limit of 400-450 micrograms/day as recommended by several expert panels."

Persons considering supplementation should note that the multivitamins they are taking may already include selenium -- in addition to their dietary intake, which tends to be higher in the U.S. than in many countries.

Comment
There is no clear agreement on how to supplement with selenium -- exactly who should use it, how much, or in what form. (In the research, selenium has been supplied both as inorganic forms such as selenate or selenite, and organic forms such as selenomethionine, or as selenium yeast.) Trials are ongoing, including at least two in HIV. But major uncertainties will remain.

We need more attention on rational ways to make decisions based on the incomplete information available now. Most professionals like to have definite proof, and are reluctant to prepare guidelines or recommendations based in part on reasonable guess. The frequent result is recommendations which are much too conservative, or none at all -- leaving the field to self-medication and a few self-taught experts, or to medical promoters or cultists. There should be widely discussed nutritional guidelines for persons with HIV, updated at least once a year -- as with guidelines for antiretroviral drug therapy.

Selenium levels in diet vary greatly by geography, because of the different amounts of the mineral in the soil where crops are grown. For example, diets are deficient in many areas of Western Europe, and of Africa. (Finland was especially deficient, and supplemented its food supply by adding selenium to fertilizer starting in 1984). It seems possible that region-specific, sophisticated recommendations on nutritional and other low-cost interventions could make major, cost-effective contributions both to treatment and prevention, benefiting those already infected and slowing the spread of the epidemic.

References

   1. Rayman MP. The importance of selenium to human health. Lancet. July 15, 2000; volume 356, pages 233-241.


risred1 - hiv +
02/07 CD4 404 - 27% - VL 15k
10/07 CD4 484 - 31% - VL 45k
05/08 CD4 414 - 26% - VL 70k
01/09 CD4 365 - 23% - VL 65k
05/09 CD4 291 - 23% - VL 115k - Started Meds - Reyataz/Truvada
06/09 CD4 394 - ?% - VL 1200 - Boosted Reyataz with Norvir and Truvada
07/09 CD4 441 - ?% - VL 118 - Boosted Reyataz with Norvir and Truvada
09/09 CD4 375 - ?% - VL Undetectable - Boosted Reyataz with Norvir and Truvada
12/09 CD4 595 - ?% - VL Undetectable - VIT D 34 - Reyataz/Truvada/Norvir

Offline risred1

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Re: Supplement Suggestions?
« Reply #20 on: April 09, 2008, 12:43:29 AM »
Selenium and HIV

Controversy remains over using selenium in people with HIV. Selenium is a toxic substance that gets spread into the environment through the burning of fossil fuel and other industrial processes. Trace amounts of it is often found in drinking water. Symptoms from consuming too much selenium include brittleness and loss of hair and nails, skin redness, blisters, vomiting, fatigue, neurological defects and damage to the liver and spleen.

Trace amounts of selenium are in the foods we eat. At these low levels, selenium is essential for proper immune function. The U.S. Recommended Daily Allowance of selenium (all ages and genders) is 55 micrograms (g). Levels are slightly higher for pregnant (60g) and lactating (70g) women. The Institute of Medicine has proposed that the maximum daily intake before causing toxic effects is roughly 400g for adults.

Amounts of Selenium in Various Foods
Food   Micrograms   % Daily Value
Brazil nuts, dried, unblanched, 1 oz    840    1,200
Tuna, canned in oil, drained, 3.5 oz    78    11
Beef / calf liver, 3 oz    48    69
Cod, cooked, dry heat, 3 oz    40    57
Noodles, enriched, boiled, 1 c    35    50
Macaroni & cheese (box mix), 1 c    32    46
Turkey breast, oven roasted, 3.5 oz    31    44
Macaroni, elbow, enriched, boiled, 1 c    30    43
Spaghetti w/ meat sauce, 1 c    25    36
Chicken, meat only, 1/2 breast    24    34
Beef chuck roast, lean only, oven roasted, 3 oz    23    33
Bread, enriched, whole wheat, 2 slices    20    29
Oatmeal, 1 c cooked    16    23
Egg, raw, whole, 1 large    15    21
Bread, enriched, white, 2 slices    14    20
Rice, enriched, long grain, cooked, 1 c    14    20
Cottage cheese, low-fat 2%, 1/2 c    11    16
Walnuts, black, dried, 1 oz    5    7
Cheddar cheese, 1 oz    4    6

Selenium deficiencies are rarely seen in the U.S., though they have been seen among people on Total Parental Nutrition (TPN), or intravenous nutrition. TPN is sometimes used to treat wasting syndrome in people with HIV. It is standard practice for doctors to check selenium levels in people on TPN and supplement as necessary.

Selenium toxicity has been seen in people using selenium supplements. In one case, high levels led to selenium poisoning in a man using supplements as a way to manage his fatigue. Investigators analyzed the over-the-counter product and found selenium levels of 500 to 1,000 times the amount labeled for each pill. This led to warnings noting that unusual diets and vitamin supplements are the most common causes of selenium toxicity in the U.S.

Several studies suggest that low levels of selenium are related to HIV disease progression. One study of 24 children and another of 125 adults has shown that those with these deficiencies were at a greater risk for disease progression and death. However, it's unknown whether or not selenium supplements would make a difference.

Other studies suggest that HIV needs selenium in order to reproduce. Some have proposed that when HIV uses all the selenium in a given cell, it may leave that cell to find more selenium by infecting other cells. Interestingly, HIV-positive women with low selenium levels have higher rates of HIV in vaginal secretions. Again, it remains unclear if selenium deficiency is a cause or an effect of HIV disease progression and if supplements will help or hurt.

A study conducted at the University of Miami compared selenium supplements (200g/day) to placebo in 259 people living with HIV (147 men, 112 women). Information about CD4+ cell count, viral load and other parameters were collected at the first study visit and then every six months thereafter for two years.

One component of the study was to evaluate the frequency of hospitalizations among those receiving selenium compared to placebo. Unfortunately, sloppy data reporting leaves results of this aspect of the study completely not interpretable currently.

Additionally, researchers examined blood levels of selenium in 112 HIV-positive women on anti-HIV therapy. They looked for links between selenium levels and the risk for pre-cancerous cervical cells (cervical dysplasia). While selenium levels were lower in women who developed dysplasia, using supplements made no difference in the risk of developing dysplasia. Five women who used selenium supplements and seven on placebo developed dysplasia.

In short, the most that can be concluded from these reports is that it remains entirely unknown if selenium supplements offer any benefit or harm, whatsoever. Risks for cervical dysplasia appear slightly higher when selenium levels are lower, but selenium supplements do not appear to eliminate this risk. This sloppy data reporting is a tragedy. Well-designed research is critical to evaluating the possible benefits (and risks) of selenium supplements.
risred1 - hiv +
02/07 CD4 404 - 27% - VL 15k
10/07 CD4 484 - 31% - VL 45k
05/08 CD4 414 - 26% - VL 70k
01/09 CD4 365 - 23% - VL 65k
05/09 CD4 291 - 23% - VL 115k - Started Meds - Reyataz/Truvada
06/09 CD4 394 - ?% - VL 1200 - Boosted Reyataz with Norvir and Truvada
07/09 CD4 441 - ?% - VL 118 - Boosted Reyataz with Norvir and Truvada
09/09 CD4 375 - ?% - VL Undetectable - Boosted Reyataz with Norvir and Truvada
12/09 CD4 595 - ?% - VL Undetectable - VIT D 34 - Reyataz/Truvada/Norvir

Offline risred1

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Re: Supplement Suggestions?
« Reply #21 on: April 09, 2008, 12:57:42 AM »
I currently take a multi that contains 200 mcg of Selenium Daily. AMNI Added Protection Without Iron: I am rethinking my position on Selenium, but its in the multi and its 200 mcg, where I'm comfortable.

The Multi containss:

B-Complex Vitamins:
Vitamin B1 (thiamine mononitrate) 100 mg
Vitamin B2 (riboflavin) 50 mg
Niacin (a form of Vitamin B3). 40 mg
Niacinamide (a form of Vitamin B3) 150 mg
Pantothenic Acid (B5, d-calcium form) 400 mg
Vitamin B6 (pyridoxine HCl) 50 mg
Folic acid 800 mcg
Vitamin B12(on ion exchange resin) 100 mcg
Biotin 300 mcg
Choline (bitartrate) 150 mg

Other Vitamins:
Vitamin A (palmitate, water soluble) 10,000 IU
Beta Carotene (added Vitamin A activity) 5,000 IU
Vitamin C (ascorbic acid, corn-free) 1200 mg
Vitamin D-3 (fish liver oil) 200 IU
Vitamin E (d-alpha tocopheryl succinate) 400 IU
Vitamin K-1 (phytonadione) 60 mcg

Minerals:
Calcium (citrate ascorbate) 500 mg
Magnesium (aspartate-ascorbate complex) 500 mg
Potassium (aspartate-ascorbate complex) 99 mg
Copper (amino acid chelate) 2 mg
Manganese (aspartate-ascorbate complex) 20 mg
Zinc (amino acid chelate) 30 mg
Iodine (kelp) 150 mcg
Chromium GTF (bioactive ChromeMate form) 200 mcg
Selenium (amino acid complex) 200 mcg
Molybdenum (amino acid chelate) 150 mcg
Vanadyl sulfate (vanadium amino acid chelate) 200 mcg
Boron (aspartate-citrate) 2 mg

Other Ingredients:
PABA (para-aminobenzoic acid) 50 mg
Inositol (B-complex growth factor) 50 mg
Bioflavonoids (from citrus fruit) 100 mg
Methionine (DL-form, amino acid) 62.5 mg
Cysteine (L-form, amino acid) 250 mg



I am still using Alpha Lipoic Acid, Acetyl L Carnintine and NAC as antioxidents.

ECGC (green tea extract decaffinated)

MSM

glutamine

7 Keto DHEA

Korean ginseng

I have cut down on my supps. Since I am doing better with digestion with my Oatmeal and Walnut breakfast, and with my glutamine supplementation, Probiotics are now out for now. If I need some, I eat yogurt and supplement my electrolytes with NUUN.

Astragalus is now out.

Vitamin D, I do supplement in the Winter to 1200 IU. With Spring and being outdoors, just the multi is fine.

Omega 3 fish oil is out - Replaced with Walnuts.

Blood test is coming up. We shall see....





risred1 - hiv +
02/07 CD4 404 - 27% - VL 15k
10/07 CD4 484 - 31% - VL 45k
05/08 CD4 414 - 26% - VL 70k
01/09 CD4 365 - 23% - VL 65k
05/09 CD4 291 - 23% - VL 115k - Started Meds - Reyataz/Truvada
06/09 CD4 394 - ?% - VL 1200 - Boosted Reyataz with Norvir and Truvada
07/09 CD4 441 - ?% - VL 118 - Boosted Reyataz with Norvir and Truvada
09/09 CD4 375 - ?% - VL Undetectable - Boosted Reyataz with Norvir and Truvada
12/09 CD4 595 - ?% - VL Undetectable - VIT D 34 - Reyataz/Truvada/Norvir

Offline BT65

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Re: Supplement Suggestions?
« Reply #22 on: April 09, 2008, 10:42:05 AM »
As I said before, how one can afford such a luxury of supplements is beyond me.
I've never killed anyone, but I frequently get satisfaction reading the obituary notices.-Clarence Darrow

Offline risred1

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Re: Supplement Suggestions?
« Reply #23 on: April 09, 2008, 12:45:43 PM »
One of the issues that in clearly an undercurrent on a forum such as this is that there are folks with resources and folks without.

The idea you just stated that supplements are a luxury is something that I try to be sensitive to.

How I afford them is by trying to isolate just the ones I want to take and I shop around. Buy using a buyers Club that is a non profit for the bulk of my purchases, I can get my supplements at a price i can afford. That ability to afford these supps is directly related to the income I derive from my employment.

Of course, when I have to reach for HARRT medications, I'm going to have to deal with co-pays that will easily triple my expenditures for supplements. So my justification has to do with trying to push back that necessity.

I would say that in some locations, such as NY, some supplements can be obtained through government assistance such as ADAP.

One of the rationals i use to justify supplement usage is the fact that at some level, some government entities have concluded that there is enough evidence that supplementation is a justified value proposition. That the value in supplements is worth the expenditure of TAX dollars. (Not that the government is an expert at all things....for sure!)

But as to the resource differentials that those of us posses on this forum, I have noted some pretty angry views at folks with resources such as Magic Johnson. Of course we can't mention him without the follow up that, he's not like us, he's got money. It doesn't matter that he earned it. He's got it and its essentially not fair.

I cannot or won't account what is and what isn't fair in todays society. But I'm also not going to apologize for being able to have a good job that allows me to afford these supplements. I am also not a marxist, communist, but do tolerate some degree of socialism - hey I'm a democrat.

And I'm really not trying to mitigate those who have these feelings of anger for those who have those resources. There is very little that can be done in that department, I'm sure i cannot help you feel better about the disparities that exist in the world. I would just say that in a forum, your going to see it all just as you see it in your day to day life. Truly I used to take posting ultra seriously on this forum to the point of some emotional anguish.

My current perspective is now to glean and share what i will, and try not to become over-wrought with those who disagree or display a temper towards what I might care to contribute. Which seems to become less and less over time.
risred1 - hiv +
02/07 CD4 404 - 27% - VL 15k
10/07 CD4 484 - 31% - VL 45k
05/08 CD4 414 - 26% - VL 70k
01/09 CD4 365 - 23% - VL 65k
05/09 CD4 291 - 23% - VL 115k - Started Meds - Reyataz/Truvada
06/09 CD4 394 - ?% - VL 1200 - Boosted Reyataz with Norvir and Truvada
07/09 CD4 441 - ?% - VL 118 - Boosted Reyataz with Norvir and Truvada
09/09 CD4 375 - ?% - VL Undetectable - Boosted Reyataz with Norvir and Truvada
12/09 CD4 595 - ?% - VL Undetectable - VIT D 34 - Reyataz/Truvada/Norvir

Offline BT65

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Re: Supplement Suggestions?
« Reply #24 on: April 09, 2008, 03:52:23 PM »
Risred,

Don't ever tongue-wag me attempting overtones of intellectual superiority.  I'm gathering from you posts, you do that quite often and seem to revel in it.

Let me ask you something-are you a nutritionist?  Dietician?  Or, at the very least, a professional sports trainer?  If not, why give such detailed advice on supplements?  Are you actually qualified?

And don't think for one second I'm resentful or envious of your financial gain.  I used to make a decent living myself.  Then Aids took over and forced me into near poverty.   However, I do not begrudge anyone monetary success.  I have several friends who are financially successful.  But they try to make a difference, a real, humanitary difference in life.  Rather than wasting money on things that the body will most likely make waste of, they gear it towards what might improve a life in the less fortunate-people I'm sure you avoid like the plague.

I get quite weary of people referring to Magic Johnson like he's someone to be idolized.  I've seen kids on the west end of my town who are, or will be, just as talented.  Unfortunately, in their off-court time, they may have to boost a few things to put food on the table.  Magic Johnson is lucky.

And what does being a democrat have anything to do with this subject?  I'm a democrat myself and look forward, hopefully, to a new, more compassionate administration.

I believe, judging from your posts, you like to hear yourself talk.  And probably we all do.  But don't attempt to make me feel inferior again-ever.

Betty
I've never killed anyone, but I frequently get satisfaction reading the obituary notices.-Clarence Darrow

Offline madbrain

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Re: Supplement Suggestions?
« Reply #25 on: April 09, 2008, 08:22:07 PM »
Bettytacy,

As I said before, how one can afford such a luxury of supplements is beyond me.

If you shop around, supplements don't have to be overly expensive. My 20 supplements regimen ends up costing about $2.5/day right now. That's about the same as the copay I would owe my insurance for 3 brand name HIV medications if I was on them.
Also, you can get a very good regimen with fewer supplements for $1/day. Or just a good multivitamin for 20 - 40 cents/day.
Lots of people spend more than those amounts daily on things far less useful, or even detrimental to their health, than supplements. Why do you think there is a Starbucks every few blocks these days for example ?

Offline risred1

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Re: Supplement Suggestions?
« Reply #26 on: April 10, 2008, 05:13:32 PM »
Well, that comes with the territory.

We all have opinions, and well, when you actually express what you think, and ones concerns, and views, well, no doubt, someone along the way gets offended.

What qualifies me, nothing.

Just my ole brain clicking away, reading stuff, trying to learn and understand things. What qualifications do I need to share what I have learned?

I had a conversation with someone just last week who thanked me for the advice I have provided and how well they are doing. Occasionally we receive validation for our reasonings.

And then of course we get into these types of political rantings about you said this and what not.

Betty, sure I like to talk, like you said, we all seem to.

But I stand by my commentary. You can be sick of Magic Johnson, call supplements luxuries and the like, but it just another opinion your stating loudly. So if you think my statements are intended you make you "feel inferior", perhaps you should consider your own statements which are just as likely to denigrate other opinions like mine.

Bottom line. I take supplements and I have a rational I've developed over time regarding them. My blood work has improved over that time. I share that information. Your results may  vary over time. Telling folks they are a waste of time and money is your prerogative that I feel free to provide counterpoint as you would to my posting. So Yeah, we make our points.

If you think I'm trying to make you feel inferior, though, well, that is not my intent. Just sayin.... And if that is the result of my posting or your conclusion as to what I was commenting on, I apologize. I'm just trying to make a point.
risred1 - hiv +
02/07 CD4 404 - 27% - VL 15k
10/07 CD4 484 - 31% - VL 45k
05/08 CD4 414 - 26% - VL 70k
01/09 CD4 365 - 23% - VL 65k
05/09 CD4 291 - 23% - VL 115k - Started Meds - Reyataz/Truvada
06/09 CD4 394 - ?% - VL 1200 - Boosted Reyataz with Norvir and Truvada
07/09 CD4 441 - ?% - VL 118 - Boosted Reyataz with Norvir and Truvada
09/09 CD4 375 - ?% - VL Undetectable - Boosted Reyataz with Norvir and Truvada
12/09 CD4 595 - ?% - VL Undetectable - VIT D 34 - Reyataz/Truvada/Norvir

Offline mousey

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Re: Supplement Suggestions?
« Reply #27 on: April 11, 2008, 01:28:33 AM »
Just bought 'Daily Multis' for my bf lately at Natures Farm. Here are the ingredients contents:

(Anyone to comment whether it is ok?) Thanks in advance.  :)

Serving : 1 Table Per Day

Vitamin A                                  10,000IU
Vitamin C                                  150 mg
Vitamin D (from fish liver oil)         400 IU
Vitamin E                                   100 IU
Vitamin B-1                                25mg
Vitamin B-2                                25mg
Vitamin B-3                                100 mg
Vitamin B-5                                50mg
Vitamin B-6                                25mg
Vitamin B-12                              100mcg
Biotin                                        300mcg
Choline                                      25mg
Folic Acid                                   400mcg
Inositol                                       25mg
Para Amino Bezoic Acid                 25mg
Calcium                                       25mg
Chromium                                   200mcg
Copper                                       2mg
Iodine                                         150mcg
Magnesium                                   5mg
Manganese                                   5mg
Molybdenum                                 100mcg
Potassium                                     5mg
Selenium                                       200mcg
Zinc                                              15mg



:: Believe in a cure ::

Offline CaliGuy22

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Re: Supplement Suggestions?
« Reply #28 on: April 28, 2008, 01:27:33 AM »
So far I am still not on meds, I take Fish Oil and a Multivitamin daily. I also drink a fruit juice called MonaVie. It is a juice with tons of antioxidants in it from the Acai berry. I can not say it will help or heal anyones symptoms but since taking it myself I sleep better, have more energy and get all my fruits in vegetables in daily. I also take a 15 minute walk everyday. I know It sounds cliche but I find just that 15 minute walk makes me feel so much better then most other things can. (Full Discloser: I am a Independent Distributor for MonaVie). So far that's what I do until my Dr. and I decide to go the medical route.
Compassion is Revolution.

Offline madbrain

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Re: Supplement Suggestions?
« Reply #29 on: April 28, 2008, 06:05:36 AM »
risred1,

Did you get new results ? Do you have any evidence if your regimen is having any effect ?
I had a test last friday and waiting for my results.

My daily supplement list is :

For HIV :
- NOW adam superior multi (2 tabs)
- NOW l-glutamine 500mg (2 caps)
- NOW acetyl l-carnitine 500mg (1 cap)
- NOW vitamin C 500mg (2 tabs)
- NOW green tea extract 400 mg (2 caps)
- NOW B6 50mg (1 tab)
- NOW magnesium citrate 200 mg (1 tab)
- NOW alpha lipoic acid 250mg (2 caps)
- NOW vitamin E 400 natural d-alpha tocopheryl (1 gel)
- NOW vitamin B-12 1000 mcg (1 lozenge)
- Jarrow n-acetyl cysteine 600mg (2 caps)

for vitamin D deficiency (I'm sedentary, and some of my psych meds cause it) :
- NOW vitamin D 2000 IU (2 gels)
- Nature made calcium 750 mg/D400/K50 (1 tab)

for bipolar :
- NOW omega-3 (2 softgels)

for sleep :
- NOW melatonin 3mg (1 cap)

for GI issues :
- NOW super enzymes (2 caps)
- NOW probiotics gr8-dophilus (2 caps)

All that comes out to $2.52 per day. And that includes all taxes and shipping I had to pay on everything.

I know for sure the vitamin D supplement is working :). I'm taking 4900 IU total since december - 400 in the calcium pill, 500 in the multi, 4000 in the 2 gels.
My vitamin D levels have gone from 12 ng/ml a year ago (severe deficiency) to 67 ng/ml last friday. Normal is 30 - 100 .

Melatonin works well too. If I take it early enough :)

I have a supply of all the above until next year. Huge cardboard box in my pantry filled with bottles that I carefully labeled with the dosage I take for me and my bf (he takes supps too, though not as many as me). I take my supps twice a day with meals (except for the melatonin, before sleep). Each dose fills about half of a small prescription bottle. And I fill them up once a month - that takes a few hours ! That's really the worst thing about them, though. And that day is coming up next week-end.

I have also been experimenting with a few more supps in the last 6 weeks that I only bought short-term supply for :
- Quercetin 500 mg (4 caps a day)
- AHCC 750 mg (4 caps a day) . This is a very pricey one. Pricier than the rest of the lot. I hope it's not actually responsible for me feeling so much better the last month than I can remember my whole life, because I don't want to pay for it again :)
- NOW panax ginseng 520 mg (4 caps a day)
- NOW licorice 400mg (2 caps a day) . Definitely short term on this one due to the warning on it about long term use.

At least I feel like I'm doing something proactive while I am not on HAART yet. And it's something I can stop unlike the meds if I choose if I don't like it. I can't prove that the supplements I chose for HIV have actually helped. My VL has been been fairly stable. I was diagnosed very early into my infection. I don't really expect them to make my numbers improve (though that would be great if they did), but if they can delay taking meds, then all the better. I can say that i noticed an improvement in my energy level last august when I went all out with supplements (the list was different, mostly the brands) at a time when I was having near-fainting events and thought of going on HAART, but didn't because my numbers were good and the cause was unidentified. I have had a lot less fatigue now and back at work full time.

I don't have my VL/CD4 test result from last friday yet. I will probably have the tcells today and the VL by the end of the week. The tcell and even tcell % seems to have big variations - between 569 and 788 last year absolute, and 27% to 40%.
I was bummed that my last CD4 abs number on on 2/2/2008 as it was my lowest so far at 553 . About the same as I had before starting supplements - 569 on 7/17/2007 . I hope that decline is not confirmed by friday's test. I have a feeling it will not be.

Offline Dachshund

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Re: Supplement Suggestions?
« Reply #30 on: April 28, 2008, 08:53:12 AM »
Gentle readers I once again remind you that all the "advice" you're receiving is completely anecdotal. Not based on peer reviewed science or approved by the FDA. Not offered by experts in the field of science or medicine or nutrition. In fact you're expected to take this advice based on their words alone. Take Risred's advice and pose the same questions to the " nutrition expert" he likes to offer as backup over at the body.com. You'll get this answer, "eat your greens and take a multi and you'll do fine."

Read their posts carefully and notice besides HIV what they're trying to cure.

Remember these guys are NOT on any type of aidsmeds so anyone that is should proceed with caution before following their advice. There are potentially dangerous drug interactions that can happen with some supplements and aidsmeds. So before you shell out your hard earned cash to the New York Buyers Club know what you are doing.

Offline madbrain

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Re: Supplement Suggestions?
« Reply #31 on: April 28, 2008, 05:11:57 PM »
Dachshund,

Gentle readers I once again remind you that all the "advice" you're receiving is completely anecdotal. Not based on peer reviewed science or approved by the FDA. Not offered by experts in the field of science or medicine or nutrition. In fact you're expected to take this advice based on their words alone. Take Risred's advice and pose the same questions to the " nutrition expert" he likes to offer as backup over at the body.com. You'll get this answer, "eat your greens and take a multi and you'll do fine."

Read their posts carefully and notice besides HIV what they're trying to cure.

Remember these guys are NOT on any type of aidsmeds so anyone that is should proceed with caution before following their advice. There are potentially dangerous drug interactions that can happen with some supplements and aidsmeds. So before you shell out your hard earned cash to the New York Buyers Club know what you are doing.

Given that the FDA only loosely regulates supplements, I wouldn't look to them for advice on supplements. It's just not their job.

I don't think I was giving advice in my latest post, merely reporting on my experiences. But just so you know, I spent a lot of time researching the supplements that I take. Dozens of hours. And there is definitely some science behind them. But I won't list every single study that I read in every post that I make talking about a particular supplement. I am tired of the attacks on supplement users.
Anyone who is looking into a supplement should do some research of their own. A good site to do research on is scholar.google.com .
Also, I never spent a cent at the NYBC. I think there are better places to buy supplements.

Your advice about drug-supplements interactions is a good one. It goes without saying, for anyone on any type of meds. Even though they are not HIV meds, I do take 4 prescriptions, and I use http://www.drugstore.com/pharmacy/drugchecker/ to check the interactions between them and supplements. I also ask my doctor about the supplements.

Offline BT65

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Re: Supplement Suggestions?
« Reply #32 on: April 28, 2008, 06:51:36 PM »
I myself could not even tamper with something that wasn't backed up by science.
I've never killed anyone, but I frequently get satisfaction reading the obituary notices.-Clarence Darrow

Offline madbrain

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Re: Supplement Suggestions?
« Reply #33 on: April 28, 2008, 09:59:57 PM »
Neither would I.

 


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