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Author Topic: The Case & Mystery of "undetectable"  (Read 3367 times)

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Offline mscaramelle

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The Case & Mystery of "undetectable"
« on: January 31, 2008, 12:33:13 PM »
I have always been curious to understand why meds bring VL to undetectable which is <50.  Why is it that it never goes lower or disappears altogether.

I have been reading information that detecting a virus in the blood is only the secondary source....that the primary location is in the large intestines, the bowel.  This is where the virus originates and the tap is never turned off when we measure the virus in the blood.   

I am not on meds and my VL is 570 which my doctor says is considered almost undetectable since I am not on any medications, but what is we attacked this virus in the digestive system where it happily feeds on undigested proteins?  Does this make sense to anyone else??

MsC

Offline srmn98

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Re: The Case & Mystery of "undetectable"
« Reply #1 on: January 31, 2008, 12:53:43 PM »
I think it is an interesting question --  Check out this article:

http://www.physorg.com/news73573729.html

If I understand correctly, a large percentage of our immune system cells are located in the gut.

I do wonder, also, how much our diets affect our overall ability to fight the virus since so many of our immune cells are in the gut, and since we lose so many with HIV. Sometimes I just think it is luck of the draw and our genes control most of it.

sara




Offline minismom

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Re: The Case & Mystery of "undetectable"
« Reply #2 on: January 31, 2008, 03:10:13 PM »
That is an interesting study.  I'd like to find the results in the Journal and read the whole thing.  I've posted this before, but it's also documented that only about 2% of the HIV virus is found in periphreal blood.

mum
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Offline mscaramelle

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Re: The Case & Mystery of "undetectable"
« Reply #3 on: February 01, 2008, 11:28:22 AM »
I find it hard to believe that scientists can't figure that out for themselves.....or...do they even want to?  I take a probiotic which I think is a must for anyone who has EVER taken an antibiotic.  I also wonder if it is possible to measure the virus in the gut...  its no secret that white blood cells are doing their work in the tissues which can explain why CD4 counts can get so low when measured via the blood. 

Now I'm reading that the virus isn't being measured at all when people are tested....its just the antibodies which means we are immune. 

As I look further down, Minismom,  it does seem to post the entire article and says that if we are able to restore the immune response in the gut, ithe patient is more likely to "clear" the virus.  I've always believed this virus can be rid of, which again, I question the theory of only ever having the virus be "undetectable"...its like tabu to say it has been rid of.  Now, why is that?

Cheers!
MsC
« Last Edit: February 01, 2008, 11:39:46 AM by mscaramelle »

Offline planonstaying

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Re: The Case & Mystery of "undetectable"
« Reply #4 on: February 01, 2008, 11:48:07 AM »
I have had between 910 and 1186 cd4 since I was infected. my last labs I had 1186 and 36%. Since I was diagnosed when acute  and  have never really spiked  in VL how come people like me for the most part slowly progess if the virus didnt wreak the intial harm it normally does? I have had one vl test of 2k when I had a cold. It was done on purpose when i was sick  to get a genotype because i normally rum  between 200-400 VL. i understnad many people like me  stay this way a long time but others dont. I think they have a puzzle peice not the puzzle.
If someone tells you  potential consequences of a behavior  it  doesn't  mean they jude you or mit    they may just give a shit about you

Offline fearless

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Re: The Case & Mystery of "undetectable"
« Reply #5 on: February 01, 2008, 07:02:13 PM »
I have always been curious to understand why meds bring VL to undetectable which is <50.  Why is it that it never goes lower or disappears altogether.
MsC

It has nothing to do with the virus, but refers to the sensitivity of the current tests - that is, the current test is not sensitive enough record a measurement below 50. Under older, less sensitive tests, <200 or 400 was referred to as undetectable.
Be forgiving, be grateful, be optimistic

Offline mscaramelle

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Re: The Case & Mystery of "undetectable"
« Reply #6 on: February 02, 2008, 12:28:09 AM »
I am fairly new, 3 years diagnosed as of yesterday, and I've never understood what the percentage stands for....thanks for the clarification fearless.   So do you feel that the virus will always be in the body or that if we can get it that low, that it can be rid of/cleared/cured?

Planonstaying....are you on meds....those are great CD4 counts!

MsC



Offline milker

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Re: The Case & Mystery of "undetectable"
« Reply #7 on: February 02, 2008, 01:12:57 AM »
Reaching the lymphatic system is not as easy as reaching the blood stream. A lymph node biopsy is not a piece of cake either. You really don't want to see that needle before it goes check your lymphatic system...

Being undetectable in the blood is a good thing, it basically means that the virus is not replicating like crazy to a point that it is invading your entire body. However, it still resides in its preferred location, the lymphatic system, where some of your immune system is being produced.

It is believed that being undetectable will dramatically reduce transmission of the virus, but it doesn't mean that the virus is out of your system.

Milker.
mid-dec: stupid ass
mid-jan: seroconversion
mid-feb: poz
mar 07: cd4 432 (35%) vl 54000
may 07: cd4 399 (28%) vl 27760
jul 07: cd4 403 (26%) vl 99241
oct 07: cd4 353 (24%) vl 29993
jan 08: cd4 332 (26%) vl 33308
mar 08: cd4 392 (23%) vl 75548
jun 08: cd4 325 (27%) vl 45880
oct 08: cd4 197 (20%) vl 154000 <== aids diagnosis
nov 2 08 start Atripla
nov 30 08: cd4 478 (23%) vl 1880 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
feb 19 09: cd4 398 (24%) vl 430 getting there!
apr 23 09: cd4 604 (29%) vl 50 woohoo :D :D
jul 30 09: cd4 512 (29%) vl undetectable :D :D
may 27 10: cd4 655 (32%) vl undetectable :D :D

Now accepting applications from blowjob ninjas™

Offline randym431

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Re: The Case & Mystery of "undetectable"
« Reply #8 on: February 02, 2008, 09:25:13 AM »
There’s some news in the NEWS section here, on fighting the "hidden" hiv.

i.e. Parasitic Drug Shows HIV-Fighting Promise

Where it states "Akt inhibition ends the survival of HIV-infected macrophage reservoirs under real-life conditions.”

Seems to me they are really trying to concentrate on the pools of hiv that currents meds can not get to.
And thus eradicating the virus all together.  No doubt, someday for some hiv generation, this will be possible to actually "cure"
people from hiv. Lets hope we all see that day.

Offline Roie

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Re: The Case & Mystery of "undetectable"
« Reply #9 on: February 02, 2008, 01:40:10 PM »
At close to $1000 for a bottle of Kaletra and even more for a bottle of Truvada, Why on earth would any of these pharmaceutical companies that make these meds want to make something that would completely get rid of the virus.

Its basicaly the same reason that Marijuna is not legal, The pharmaceutical companiesl benift financialy on the drugs  that help with all the symptoms that marajuana could helps with.

Its all a money thing????
Cruise on down the High Way

"When people who are not ready jump in, things can go horribly wrong. For most of us, there is always time to take a deep breath, consider one's options and make a careful, sound decision based on clinical fact, not emotion."
MtD

Offline planonstaying

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Re: The Case & Mystery of "undetectable"
« Reply #10 on: February 02, 2008, 05:18:43 PM »
I am fairly new, 3 years diagnosed as of yesterday, and I've never understood what the percentage stands for....thanks for the clarification fearless.   So do you feel that the virus will always be in the body or that if we can get it that low, that it can be rid of/cleared/cured?

Planonstaying....are you on meds....those are great CD4 counts!

MsC



Nope, I have never been on any. It's just dumbluck nothing I did or do
If someone tells you  potential consequences of a behavior  it  doesn't  mean they jude you or mit    they may just give a shit about you

Offline mscaramelle

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Re: The Case & Mystery of "undetectable"
« Reply #11 on: February 03, 2008, 12:28:38 AM »
Good Lord....$1000 a bottle?  That's ridiculous...I don't mean to sound naive, but I'm not on anything and that's absolutely crazy!

I was reading about the great properties of ECGE or something similar found in green tea that aid in halting the virus replication, and in the same news article, they said to be patient as testing has begun to provide the compound in drug form.  Now why would you wait for a pill form when you can simply drink green tea.

Thanks for all the comments!

MsC 

Offline mscaramelle

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Re: The Case & Mystery of "undetectable"
« Reply #12 on: February 03, 2008, 12:35:56 AM »

Back again, I wanted to attach this somewhere, so I figured I'd do it here.  This is an amazing movie produced by Dr. XXX.  He's amazing, you may have heard of him on PBS.  Anyways, this is for the open-minded and if you have a couple of hours, PLEASE watch this movie.  It was a real eye-opener for me.

Cheers!
MsC

edited to remove denialist propagnda
« Last Edit: February 03, 2008, 06:46:12 AM by Ann »

Offline milker

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Re: The Case & Mystery of "undetectable"
« Reply #13 on: February 03, 2008, 12:48:49 AM »
This is a denialist video. I have reported your post. What a waste of time.

Milker.
mid-dec: stupid ass
mid-jan: seroconversion
mid-feb: poz
mar 07: cd4 432 (35%) vl 54000
may 07: cd4 399 (28%) vl 27760
jul 07: cd4 403 (26%) vl 99241
oct 07: cd4 353 (24%) vl 29993
jan 08: cd4 332 (26%) vl 33308
mar 08: cd4 392 (23%) vl 75548
jun 08: cd4 325 (27%) vl 45880
oct 08: cd4 197 (20%) vl 154000 <== aids diagnosis
nov 2 08 start Atripla
nov 30 08: cd4 478 (23%) vl 1880 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
feb 19 09: cd4 398 (24%) vl 430 getting there!
apr 23 09: cd4 604 (29%) vl 50 woohoo :D :D
jul 30 09: cd4 512 (29%) vl undetectable :D :D
may 27 10: cd4 655 (32%) vl undetectable :D :D

Now accepting applications from blowjob ninjas™

Offline mscaramelle

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Re: The Case & Mystery of "undetectable"
« Reply #14 on: February 03, 2008, 01:11:37 AM »
Thats just a matter of opinion....so much for freedom of speech....and open-mindedness!

MsC

Offline milker

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Re: The Case & Mystery of "undetectable"
« Reply #15 on: February 03, 2008, 01:22:58 AM »
Thats just a matter of opinion....so much for freedom of speech....and open-mindedness!

MsC
Dude I don't know if you're HIV positive, but if you are, then I suggest that you get care from HIV specialists. I guess you haven't seen people dying of AIDS.

I was trying to answer your question about being undetectable but you are just one of them who tell me that what I have is a scam and that I should just ignore it and go on with my life. Once again, I guess you haven't seen people dying of AIDS.

According to the video, HIV is not the reason for AIDS. Fine. Then what is the reason for AIDS?

I'm not even sure I even want to start this discussion. Moderators will shut if off real fast.

Milker.
mid-dec: stupid ass
mid-jan: seroconversion
mid-feb: poz
mar 07: cd4 432 (35%) vl 54000
may 07: cd4 399 (28%) vl 27760
jul 07: cd4 403 (26%) vl 99241
oct 07: cd4 353 (24%) vl 29993
jan 08: cd4 332 (26%) vl 33308
mar 08: cd4 392 (23%) vl 75548
jun 08: cd4 325 (27%) vl 45880
oct 08: cd4 197 (20%) vl 154000 <== aids diagnosis
nov 2 08 start Atripla
nov 30 08: cd4 478 (23%) vl 1880 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
feb 19 09: cd4 398 (24%) vl 430 getting there!
apr 23 09: cd4 604 (29%) vl 50 woohoo :D :D
jul 30 09: cd4 512 (29%) vl undetectable :D :D
may 27 10: cd4 655 (32%) vl undetectable :D :D

Now accepting applications from blowjob ninjas™

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: The Case & Mystery of "undetectable"
« Reply #16 on: February 03, 2008, 01:32:00 AM »
Thats just a matter of opinion....so much for freedom of speech....and open-mindedness!

MsC

There is no "freedom of speech" on AIDSmeds, my dear.  It's a private international oriented web forum and we aren't constricted by some piece of paper that Benjamin Franklin shit on.  If you had bothered to read the rules here on the forum before launching in to your quack nonsense you would have seen in advance that there a zero tolerance policy for the advocation of AIDS denialist propaganda. 

The moderators, assuredly, will be along quite soon to ban you.  Enjoy.
"I’ve slept with enough men to know that I’m not gay"

Offline Roie

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Re: The Case & Mystery of "undetectable"
« Reply #17 on: February 03, 2008, 01:51:14 AM »
Good Lord....$1000 a bottle?  That's ridiculous...I don't mean to sound naive, but I'm not on anything and that's absolutely crazy!

I was reading about the great properties of ECGE or something similar found in green tea that aid in halting the virus replication, and in the same news article, they said to be patient as testing has begun to provide the compound in drug form.  Now why would you wait for a pill form when you can simply drink green tea.

Thanks for all the comments!

MsC 

Sadly this is the cost- Yes  $1035 a bottle Truvada, Todays rate of exchage for US $ to the Shekel.
And believe me- I do drink lots of Green tea with added Indian Cinnamon.
Cruise on down the High Way

"When people who are not ready jump in, things can go horribly wrong. For most of us, there is always time to take a deep breath, consider one's options and make a careful, sound decision based on clinical fact, not emotion."
MtD

Offline milker

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Re: The Case & Mystery of "undetectable"
« Reply #18 on: February 03, 2008, 01:56:50 AM »
Good Lord....$1000 a bottle?  That's ridiculous...I don't mean to sound naive, but I'm not on anything and that's absolutely crazy!

I was reading about the great properties of ECGE or something similar found in green tea that aid in halting the virus replication, and in the same news article, they said to be patient as testing has begun to provide the compound in drug form.  Now why would you wait for a pill form when you can simply drink green tea.

Thanks for all the comments!

MsC 

Green tea doesn't cure HIV infection, period.

Milker.
mid-dec: stupid ass
mid-jan: seroconversion
mid-feb: poz
mar 07: cd4 432 (35%) vl 54000
may 07: cd4 399 (28%) vl 27760
jul 07: cd4 403 (26%) vl 99241
oct 07: cd4 353 (24%) vl 29993
jan 08: cd4 332 (26%) vl 33308
mar 08: cd4 392 (23%) vl 75548
jun 08: cd4 325 (27%) vl 45880
oct 08: cd4 197 (20%) vl 154000 <== aids diagnosis
nov 2 08 start Atripla
nov 30 08: cd4 478 (23%) vl 1880 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
feb 19 09: cd4 398 (24%) vl 430 getting there!
apr 23 09: cd4 604 (29%) vl 50 woohoo :D :D
jul 30 09: cd4 512 (29%) vl undetectable :D :D
may 27 10: cd4 655 (32%) vl undetectable :D :D

Now accepting applications from blowjob ninjas™

Offline Ann

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Re: The Case & Mystery of "undetectable"
« Reply #19 on: February 03, 2008, 06:41:09 AM »
MsC,

I've removed the video link and the name of a denialist from your post. As you've been told, denialist propaganda is forbidden on this website.

The ONLY reason I'm not banning you outright is because you are hiv positive. However, I AM giving you a seven day time out for breaching our posting guidelines. Make sure you read the Welcome Thread. If I ever catch you posting denialist propaganda again, you WILL be banned, permanently.

Ann
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"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline BT65

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Re: The Case & Mystery of "undetectable"
« Reply #20 on: February 03, 2008, 07:46:45 AM »
I remember in the early 90's, there used to be a scam that banging on the upper portion of one's chest like a gorilla would improve CD4s and possibly eradicate HIV.  I thought that the extreme scams of that type had kind of faded, but guess I was wrong.
I've never killed anyone, but I frequently get satisfaction reading the obituary notices.-Clarence Darrow

Offline Ann

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Re: The Case & Mystery of "undetectable"
« Reply #21 on: February 03, 2008, 10:57:00 AM »
I remember in the early 90's, there used to be a scam that banging on the upper portion of one's chest like a gorilla would improve CD4s and possibly eradicate HIV.  I thought that the extreme scams of that type had kind of faded, but guess I was wrong.

Now I've heard EVERYTHING! Bloody hell, if banging on our chests was all we had to do.... ::) ~shakes head~

Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline BT65

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Re: The Case & Mystery of "undetectable"
« Reply #22 on: February 03, 2008, 11:44:10 AM »
Yes Ann, I remember that someone at my ASO was telling us all to do that (and demonstrated).  He said that it would stimulate the thymus, which would in turn produce more T's.  I thought that was one of the most assinine things I had ever heard in my life. 
I've never killed anyone, but I frequently get satisfaction reading the obituary notices.-Clarence Darrow

Offline Ann

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Re: The Case & Mystery of "undetectable"
« Reply #23 on: February 03, 2008, 11:53:58 AM »
Yes Ann, I remember that someone at my ASO was telling us all to do that (and demonstrated).  He said that it would stimulate the thymus, which would in turn produce more T's.  I thought that was one of the most assinine things I had ever heard in my life. 

I can certainly think of better ways of stimulating one's thymus! ;D
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline BT65

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Re: The Case & Mystery of "undetectable"
« Reply #24 on: February 03, 2008, 12:05:17 PM »
I can certainly think of better ways of stimulating one's thymus! ;D

Oh honey, do tell. :D
I've never killed anyone, but I frequently get satisfaction reading the obituary notices.-Clarence Darrow

 


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