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Poll

is the fighting in lebenon and israil the beginning

yes
11 (31.4%)
no
24 (68.6%)

Total Members Voted: 35

Author Topic: world war 3  (Read 11051 times)

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Offline Lis

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world war 3
« on: July 14, 2006, 07:31:12 PM »
just want to know what all of you think.. this scares the shit out of me... there is so much history to this and so much to lose...  why cant it be possible to live in harmony?

it makes me soooo sad!!!
poz 1986....

Offline ImagineFL

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Re: world war 3
« Reply #1 on: July 14, 2006, 11:00:19 PM »
Because they basis of their fighting is based on religion.  That is a no win situation, whether you are a nutty evangelistic or a child loving Catholic.

Religious battles will never end.   :-\

Offline MSPspud

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Re: world war 3
« Reply #2 on: July 14, 2006, 11:57:51 PM »
Well, it's the beginning to a new more escalated era of crap but not the end of the world or WWIII (yet).

Jason (who senses Jack and Rexella Van Impe are rubbing their money grubbing hands together greedily)
« Last Edit: July 15, 2006, 12:01:29 AM by MSPspud »

Offline dario

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Re: world war 3
« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2006, 05:33:11 AM »
Nothing really new ... it is business as usual ... it is not a "war". 
... when I was young, I never needed anyone, making love was just for fun, those days are gone ... Eric Carmen (Raspberries)

Offline allopathicholistic

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Re: world war 3
« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2006, 09:39:56 AM »
as intelligent as world leaders claim to be, they should know that with the weapons of today, any type of "world war 3" will be the LAST war in which NOBODY WINS so only a fool would start it or fuel it

yeah, let's blow ourselves to smithereens 20 times over, then there'll be 8 planets instead of 9!  >:(  >:(

Offline alisenjafi

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Re: world war 3
« Reply #5 on: July 15, 2006, 10:26:52 AM »
christians  are jonesing for armageden- they need their rapture-and any one who knows anything about revelations , knows Damascus is the ground zero for it all!
Cheers
Johnny
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how can you say
I go about things the wrong way
I am human and I need to be loved
just like everybody else does"
The Smiths

Offline randym431

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Re: world war 3
« Reply #6 on: July 15, 2006, 11:21:32 AM »
These people have been fighting since the beginning of time. It just sounds worse because we have CNN and Fox now. Heck, they had everyone believing they would be dead by now from bird flu just a few months ago.

I wish the rapture would happen. Then all those Pat Robertson and Falwell folk would realize they are still here and  have been following idiots all this time.

Offline Lisa

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Re: world war 3
« Reply #7 on: July 15, 2006, 11:35:07 AM »
I really believe that the big countries are hoping that the Iraelis will take out Hezbollah, and possibly Hammas, so that the Lebanese Government can flourish.
As long as Syria, and Iran stay out of the game, this could potentially be a good thing.
No Fear  No Shame  No Stigma
Happiness is not getting what you want, but wanting what you have.

Offline naftalim

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Re: world war 3
« Reply #8 on: July 15, 2006, 11:56:35 AM »
I lived in Israel for 8 years and served in the military. Essentially today even more than before, its outside parties that want to keep this conflict going. Iran because it wants to both continue its nuclear program and to rise as the Champion of Islam. Syria, to deflect their peoples attention from the dictatorship they have been under forever. Combine that with the Islamic fanatics of Hizbollah and Hamas and you have a recipe for disaster. All tis talk about doing it for the Palestinians is nonsense. The Arab world could have put every single Palestinian living in camps into a villa for each and every family but it serves their purpose to keep this issue festering.

Until the Palestinians wake up and realize that the path to peace and prosperity for them lies in working out a peaceful accomodation alongside Israel, they will continue to suffer and live and die in misery. Unfortunately, by electing Hamas, they have ensured that this will continue.

Offline AlanBama

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Re: world war 3
« Reply #9 on: July 15, 2006, 03:05:50 PM »
I think those horsemen of the Apocolypse may be saddling up right now, who knows?

You can make yourself sick worrying about it, and there's really not a thing we can do, except love each other.
"Remember my sentimental friend that a heart is not judged by how much you love, but by how much you are loved by others." - The Wizard of Oz

Offline cmhjeff

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Re: world war 3
« Reply #10 on: July 17, 2006, 09:45:40 AM »
 :(    Scare me and I try not to get tied up in it because I have no control over that but it still scares me to think what it could snowball into.

Offline Terry

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Re: world war 3
« Reply #11 on: July 18, 2006, 09:38:34 PM »
Lis call me a fool but I fear no one.

Again, this world is guilty and especially the United Nations are guilty of standing aside while terrorist declare ďDeath to IsraelĒ and all Jews. (When will it be a call for death to gayís or friends of gayís etc.?)

Syria and Iran are countries that support and finance terrorism. I donít see why Israel doesn't just bomb the Hell out of Lebanon, Syria and Iran and be done with it. They should do the world a favor. After all those counties openly state and declare death to the Jewish people. Sick F**cking world that we live in.

Not once in my life have I ever heard the United Nations denounce the Palestinians or any Arab country for all the killings and murders of innocent men women and children. For that matter I have yet to hear them say a word against OBL.

Itís times like this that I consider myself, not affiliated with any particular political party. I consider myself an American. And already Iím hearing on the news that Syria is planning protest against America for what is going on right now in the Middle East.

Let me get this right. Hezbollah has gone into Israel, took two soldiers hostage and then randomly started bombing Israelís population, killing innocent people? And now they want to have a truce? WTF?

Iím surprised that America and also that the rest of the world arenít up in arms and wanting to drop a few nuclear bombs on Syria.

Europe watch out. Because after Israel, youíre next and then after that it will be America that these Islamic Fascist put their blood thirst attention to.

It is America fault, alright! Itís our fault because we have been too politically correct for way too long.

Terry (Fuck-em)

PS. This weekend, here in Guerneville, we had our usual war protesters beating drums and holding up signs of protest against the war in Iraq. Well I had just about had it with them. I took the 3x5 foot flag from my house and a tape recording of Kate Smithís God Bless America. Pulled up next to these assholes and put our flag out the open sunroof of my car. Turned the sound system of my BMW as high as it would go. I then told them where to put it. The sheriffís dept. did come. And I was told that I had to move my car from the bus stop area. But they did not have a permit so they had to also leave.

PPS. Dam itís fun to be old and a grouch!

Offline Lisa

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Re: world war 3
« Reply #12 on: July 18, 2006, 11:28:50 PM »
......i personally would have preferred Lee Greenwood's rendition of " God Bless the U.S.A." 
If I were a fella, we could be grumpy old men together.......or Oscar, and Felix. ;D ;)
No Fear  No Shame  No Stigma
Happiness is not getting what you want, but wanting what you have.

Offline swede_dish

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Re: world war 3
« Reply #13 on: July 19, 2006, 01:03:23 AM »
try saying it's not a war to the people who have to live in the midst of it. I have family in Lebenon and Israel.
"I married a German. Every night I dress up as Poland and he invades me. "
-Bette Midler

Offline Lis

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Re: world war 3
« Reply #14 on: July 19, 2006, 01:19:43 AM »
lotus... you have my prayers...

no good can come from any of this... folks forget in the USA... war is real.. remember how we all felt on 9/11
that was 1 day... i cant imagine EVERY day being like that... 

lisbeth (who is shaking her head)
poz 1986....

Offline David_CA

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Re: world war 3
« Reply #15 on: July 19, 2006, 08:51:18 AM »
lotus... you have my prayers...

no good can come from any of this... folks forget in the USA... war is real.. remember how we all felt on 9/11
that was 1 day... i cant imagine EVERY day being like that... 

lisbeth (who is shaking her head)

Exactly.  Most of us here in the US (North America, actually) and Europe are so removed from these conflicts.  How do we (US and other allied countries) expect to effectively establish any sort of governments in these countries?  That's kind of like our current politicians deciding what those with HIV/AIDS need in terms of counseling, medical assistance, privacy, and help in general. 

I know that most people in the US wouldn't want some foreign power to come and try and correct our problems.  In fact, we'd resist as hard as we could, as we have in the past.  People in other countries resent us.  They look at us as the root of evil.  They're jealous of us.  We bitch and moan over $3 gas and how we don't like the way we're treated for being HIV+ while they are dying from all sorts of violence, starvation, and lack of medical treatment.  It's like we have almost everything except for compassion.  Hell, lately on these forums there seems to be a lack of compassion towards each other.  It's not the 'weapons of mass destruction' that will be the end of us all, it's our shit attitude towards each other that'll do it. 

David
Black Friday 03-03-2006
03-23-06 CD4 359 @27.4% VL 75,938
06-01-06 CD4 462 @24.3% VL > 100,000
08-15-06 CD4 388 @22.8% VL >  "
10-21-06 CD4 285 @21.9% VL >  "
  Atripla started 12-01-2006
01-08-07 CD4 429 @26.8% VL 1872!
05-08-07 CD4 478 @28.1% VL 740
08-03-07 CD4 509 @31.8% VL 370
11-06-07 CD4 570 @30.0% VL 140
02-21-08 CD4 648 @32.4% VL 600
05-19-08 CD4 695 @33.1% VL < 48 undetectable!
08-21-08 CD4 725 @34.5%
11-11-08 CD4 672 @39.5%
02-11-09 CD4 773 @36.8%
05-11-09 CD4 615 @36.2%
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11-19-09 CD4 944 @33.7%
02-17-10 CD4 678 @39.9%  
06-03-10 CD4 768 @34.9%
09-21-10 CD4 685 @40.3%
01-10-11 CD4 908 @36.3%
05-23-11 CD4 846 @36.8% VL 80
02-13-12 CD4 911 @41.4% VL<20
You must be the change you want to see in the world.  Mahatma Gandhi

Offline Terry

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Re: world war 3
« Reply #16 on: July 19, 2006, 02:04:55 PM »
David,

The Iranians and Syrians (under the disguise of Hamas and Hezbollah.) want to kill all the Jews, period. When they are done doing that they will then want to wipe over Europe, period. By that time it will be too late for the US to care much about what going on in the Middle East because they will already be in New York harbor.

People are fooling themselves if they think that the Hezbollah terrorists arenít already here in America. They are. We are burying our heads if we donít admit to the fact these radicals are out to eliminate anyone that is not a Muslim. That is their objective/crusade.

In the early 30ís the Germans started by arresting and killing gays. When no one spoke up or protested they moved on to the Jews thus the holocaust that the Iranians president said never occurred. Millions of innocent people died just because they were gay or Jewish.

The world can not turn its back on these terrorists. Their religious leaders right now are on TV declaring death to all Jews. What would it look like if Pope Benedict were on the news waving his fist in the air decaling death to America? This is not a case of turn the other cheek.

Terry (Lisa you know I'm Felix and we need to have separate bathrooms)

Offline Dachshund

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Re: world war 3
« Reply #17 on: July 19, 2006, 02:06:58 PM »
Gee Terry, bet those protesters were amused to see you pull up in your German made car, waving Old Glory while blaring Kate Smith...

Offline Terry

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Re: world war 3
« Reply #18 on: July 19, 2006, 02:25:09 PM »
Hal,

No they were too doped up to notice a 16-year-old used BMW.  The only thing good about the car is the sound system.

They seemed actually afraid of me. Sweet little old me???  ::)  It was their right to protest and it is my right to protest them. What a country!

Terry

Offline swede_dish

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Re: world war 3
« Reply #19 on: July 19, 2006, 03:41:13 PM »
I am so very torn on this issue. The problem with interferance is knowing when the appropriate time to do is. WWII is a good example. Again, I am biased on both of these issues because many members of my family were in Auchwitz and they are also in the Middle East at the moment.

One problem I am having discussing this with my friends and such is that everyone wants to talk about this but they know nothing of the prior conflicts, history or issues at hand in the reigion. Alot of these people are protesting something they know nothing about...on both sides. However, it is their right to protest so I have no problem with them doing it. The only problem I have is the lack of research.
"I married a German. Every night I dress up as Poland and he invades me. "
-Bette Midler

Offline otherplaces

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Re: world war 3
« Reply #20 on: July 21, 2006, 12:12:17 AM »

Geez Terry, you know the new Lebanon gov't is pro-US. They got democracy and hezbolla became a part of it (that would be OUR fault), but the majority are fine with us. This is so much MORE complicated than your simple rendition of Metallica's 'KILL 'EM ALL'. 

I'll tell you the NUMBER ONE problem with US foreign policy is that we are viewed as hypocrits. And for good reason. We tout the beauty of Lebanon democracy, but when Israel threatens to "bomb them back 20 years" we sit on our hands.  Can you really have it both ways?

The Lebanese gov't doesn't have control over what hezbolla is doing in the south, nonetheless innocents get punished and die. And a new democracy stands on the brink of crumbling. Way to go U S A.

I live around "Muslims"...people from the Middle East.  I have no idea what their religious affiliation is.  They're fine people.  I find it creepy that you'd kill that guy who works at the gas station 3 doors up from me.   

As for armegeddon.  Armegeddon can't happen until they rebuild the temple on the temple mount.  This is why alot of evangelical xtians are Israel supporters.  It's not because they like jewish people.  It's because they want the Jews to rebuild the temple which is a sign of Armegeddon.  And really...to take up a political agenda that supposedly leads to "armegeddon"...i.e. the death of millions.  I think that's sick.

In the end, I believe in an Israeli state and Palestinian state.  Bombing Lebanon ain't going to solve anything.

Also, I think this is pretty common for the new Israeli PM to show everyone how tough he is.  Then after awhile they see how pointless it is...and then they die, or end up in a coma.

So, I'm still waiting for the Palestinian Ghandi to pop up and sort all this out.

brian



Offline scaredstraight68

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Re: world war 3
« Reply #21 on: July 21, 2006, 01:19:03 AM »
I hate to say this but for once, I'm just glad it''s not us.

WAR SUX

Offline dario

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Re: world war 3
« Reply #22 on: July 21, 2006, 01:06:27 PM »
So, I'm still waiting for the Palestinian Ghandi to pop up and sort all this out.


A personality like Gandhi could emerge within the cultural framework of Hinduism.  It is rather difficult that someone similar could come forth from Islam (unless it would be from a movement having the principles of Sufism - currently nonexistant). 

As for "Armageddon-like" mentalities, the Iranian president is an interesting chap.  He belongs to a particular branch of Shites who believe in the coming of the Mahdi - a kind of Islamic last-days messiah.  (Ironically this 'sect' of Shites were shunned under Ayatollah Khomeini and the latter actually prohibited some of their practices).  These sectarian Shites believe that a war would precede the coming of the Mahdi.  So, if the Iranian president would stick to his beliefs he may well want to provoke this war in order to precipitate the coming of this Mahdi.

Nevertheless, I think that at the end of the day the Iranian President will be eliminated by mainstream Shites in Iran.
... when I was young, I never needed anyone, making love was just for fun, those days are gone ... Eric Carmen (Raspberries)

Offline Terry

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Re: world war 3
« Reply #23 on: July 21, 2006, 01:18:52 PM »

I live around "Muslims"...people from the Middle East.  I have no idea what their religious affiliation is.  They're fine people.  I find it creepy that you'd kill that guy who works at the gas station 3 doors up from me. 

brian




Geez Brian,

Iíd say there's a high probability that their Muslim. Definitely Not Christian and most certainly not Jewish.   ???

The guy three doors from you are not terrorist. Well at least I hope for you heís  not.   ::)

Terry

Offline Tim Horn

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Re: world war 3
« Reply #24 on: July 21, 2006, 02:38:47 PM »
Terry:

For what it's worth, there sizeable populations of both Christians and Jews of Arab descent living in the Middle East and elsewhere in the world. There are millions of Arab-speaking Christians in Egypt, Lebanon, and Syria, along with millions more living in in Europe, South America, North America, and Australia.  There are also many Mizrahi Jews -- Arab Jews -- living throughout the world.  Granted, many of them fled their native countries for Israel or European or North American countries following the Arab-Israeli War in 1948 -- but they are still very much apart of the religious makeup of people of Middle Eastern descent throughout the world.

And while I'm at it, U.S. involvement in what has quickly turned into a major conflict -- and let's face it, this truly is a proxy war with the U.S., Europe, Russia, and China strategically playing their pieces -- has really little to do with the "war on terrorism."  Let's not forget the biggest threat: that the Tehran government has a developed a plan to begin competing with New York's NYMEX and London's IPE with respect to international oil trades - using a euro-denominated international oil-trading mechanism. This means that without some form of U.S. intervention, the euro is going to establish a firm foothold in the international oil trade. Given U.S. debt levels and the stated neoconservative project for U.S. global domination, Tehran's objective constitutes an obvious encroachment on U.S. dollar supremacy in the international oil market. 

Look no further than the war in Iraq for evidence of this. Back in 2000, when Saddam Hussein began selling Iraq's oil in the euro, instead of the weakening American dollar, this was seen more of an explosive threat to US interests than any WMDs.  And wouldn't you know it -- in  a June 5th, 2003, article in the Financial Times -- it was confirmed that Iraqi oil sales returned to the international markets again denominated in U.S. dollars, not Euros. 

With hundreds of billions of U.S. dollars being spent on the "wars of liberation" in Afghanistan and Iraq -- and teetering on the brink throughout the rest of the Middle East -- you better believe this is about more than just totalitarianism and religious fantaticism... it's about maintaining our economy.  I actually give a lot of credit to neo-conservatives for pushing so hard for a U.S. role in these conflicts, notably because they're NOT suffering from grand disillusionment as to what the role of the U.S. in these Middle East conflicts is really about.  Where there is turmoil, there is someone getting very, very rich. 
 
Tim Horn 
« Last Edit: July 21, 2006, 03:15:02 PM by Tim Horn »

Offline dario

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Re: world war 3
« Reply #25 on: July 21, 2006, 03:42:33 PM »
There are millions of Arab-speaking Christians in Egypt, Lebanon, and Syria, along with millions more living in in Europe, South America, North America, and Australia. 

Christian Arab communities could well disappear in the next few decades if the current trends continue.  Till 1945 more than 50% of Betlehem was Christian.  Now the fraction of Christians left is perhaps not more than 10%.  The same thing is happenning in Iraq after the US invasion.  Ironically Christians thrived under Saddam!! Before 1982 the majority of the Lebanese were Maronites.  Now they account for 40%!  Probably next year they will be 30%.

I like quoting these statistical facts when confronting stupid american neo-cons who imagine themselves as being some kind of liberators or exporters of freedom and take pride in the unblinded US support of Israel.   
... when I was young, I never needed anyone, making love was just for fun, those days are gone ... Eric Carmen (Raspberries)

Offline Tim Horn

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Re: world war 3
« Reply #26 on: July 21, 2006, 03:55:58 PM »
Interestingly, according to the Arab American Institute, the majority of Arab Americans are Christian -- 35% are Roman/Eastern Catholic, 18% are Eastern Orthodox, 10% are Protestant, 13% are of another religion or have no religious affiliation.  Only 24% were found to be Muslim. 

http://www.aaiusa.org/arab-americans/22/demographics

Offline Terry

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Re: world war 3
« Reply #27 on: July 21, 2006, 04:12:38 PM »
Tim,

I agree with you but you left out the involvement of the largest mafia organization in the world itís called the United Nations. Which does, as it wants without having to answer to anyone or any nation. Just look at the oil for food program that the Sectary General himself was directly involved in.

Also my comment to Brian was in response to his not knowing what religion the Muslims were. Their Muslim! Thought I was being funny. In a sarcastic kind of way.

Terry (who know that whatever anyone of us say really doesn't matter to those suffering in the Middle East.)

Offline Tim Horn

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Re: world war 3
« Reply #28 on: July 21, 2006, 04:24:27 PM »
Also my comment to Brian was in response to his not knowing what religion the Muslims were. Their Muslim! Thought I was being funny. In a sarcastic kind of way.

Oops! Gotcha.  Didn't even pick up on Brian's original mistake. 

Thanks -- and as for the U.N., man... that's a whole other kettle of fish!

Have a good weekend,

Tim Horn

Offline swede_dish

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Re: world war 3
« Reply #29 on: July 21, 2006, 04:52:46 PM »
honestly this is one of the most interesting topics so far...maybe its just my personal involvement.

I live next door to a family of Arab Christians. Probebly my favorite people in the world. Last year I worked in an Arab run grocery store..they happened to be Muslim. Every single Jewish holiday they let me have it off and were very considerate to my religious beliefs.  I personally love the Muslim community and this is comming from a Jew.
"I married a German. Every night I dress up as Poland and he invades me. "
-Bette Midler

Offline otherplaces

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Re: world war 3
« Reply #30 on: July 21, 2006, 06:49:47 PM »

Tim and Terry,

Umm, you may notice I put quotes around the word "Muslim"...as in this would be what a person from the Middle East is commonly referred to as being in the US, but wouldn't necessarily be a correct assumption. Perhaps I wasn't clear enough...but no mistake.

brian


Offline Grasshopper

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Re: world war 3
« Reply #31 on: July 22, 2006, 06:06:44 AM »


I'll tell you the NUMBER ONE problem with US foreign policy is that we are viewed as hypocrits. And for good reason. We tout the beauty of Lebanon democracy, but when Israel threatens to "bomb them back 20 years" we sit on our hands.  Can you really have it both ways?

The Lebanese gov't doesn't have control over what hezbolla is doing in the south, nonetheless innocents get punished and die. And a new democracy stands on the brink of crumbling. Way to go U S A.
  


And to make things worse. today in NY Times:
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/22/world/middleeast/22military.html?hp&ex=1153627200&en=ccb5206208860925&ei=5094&partner=homepage

"Weapons
U.S. Speeds Up Bomb Delivery for the Israelis
               
 
By DAVID S. CLOUD and HELENE COOPER
Published: July 22, 2006
WASHINGTON, July 21 ó The Bush administration is rushing a delivery of precision-guided bombs to Israel, which requested the expedited shipment last week after beginning its air campaign against Hezbollah targets in Lebanon, American officials said Friday.

The decision to quickly ship the weapons to Israel was made with relatively little debate within the Bush administration, the officials said. Its disclosure threatens to anger Arab governments and others because of the appearance that the United States is actively aiding the Israeli bombing campaign in a way that could be compared to Iranís efforts to arm and resupply Hezbollah."

See link for complete article.






Offline AldousOrwell

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Re: world war 3
« Reply #32 on: July 22, 2006, 02:58:00 PM »
TIM FOR UN SECRETARY GENERAL!!!

Personally I'm kind of neutral coming from New Zealand a 'friend' of America but no longer an ally since our no-nukes policy in 1986.

My knowledge of the Middle-East conflict history and of US foreign policy goes something like this...

I kind of think that Israel beat the Arabs fair and square in the past. They hung onto the strategic Syrian Golan Heights even though they are not technically part of Biblical Israel, so gave the Gaza Strip as a kind of deal decider. But what sort of deal is it now? Blowing up picnickers on a beach, and all the other sad events. I remember chatting with an Israeli soldier in Eilat in 1990. He bragged about getting bored and shooting Palestinians in the balls with rubber bullets from long distance for sport. The sort of thing an SS guard might do to a Jew, sort of ala Ralph Fiennes in Schindlers List. Is it any wonder they voted for Hammas, when they are the only one's to give PRACTICAL HUMANITARIAN help and not use them as a pawn in a dangerous game of chess.

This is a complicated issue that may never be resolved in our lifetimes.

Here in the UK, the country that fudged the whole issue by pulling out of Palestine in 1947, we seem to get a more balanced picture. I also watch Fox News, which should come with a government health warning for toxicity. The other day the reporter focussed on a few INJURED Israelis, and made NO mention of the dozens of DEAD Lebanese women and children KILLED. Switching over to Channel 4's ITN coverage, it gave equal time to both events. The British reporters did not look nearly as shit scared as the FOX reporter by the way. The USA is using propaganda tactics as old as advertising to paint the issue in easy to understand black and white. The whole thing might well be a pretext to a wider war. It is all part of the culture of FEAR as explained by Michael Moore and others.

The US foreign policy has usually been to fight war by proxy since WW2. The cold war was brinkmanship like James Dean in 'Rebel without a cause' and who would blink first, while driving head on at each other. Proxy war means getting someone else to drive your car and is much safer.

The end purpose has always been to secure cheap and reliable sources of natural resouces, be it Indonesian (or Venezuelan?) oil or Chilean copper. Other countries with the misfortune not to be blessed with such assets are nowhere on the agenda for spreading peace and democracy. Countries like Lebanon or Somalia.

Vietnam was only a partial proxy war and the Chinese hoodwinked Nixon and Kissinger into thinking they were getting a good deal in order to end it. The same with Kruschev and Kennedy over Cuba. It was really a draw as the Turkey based missiles were withdrawn on the quiet as part of the deal. Both deals pandered to the USA's obsession to be seen as the new controlling order in the world. 

Ever since the collapse of the Soviet Union the US has had carte blanche to do whatever it bloody well pleases. In the Cold War time the Soviets could always be relied on to cut off weapons supplies and bring the Arab states into line. They have enough of their plates now. The Chinese are looking on and laughing while their economy grows at 20% some years.

Everyone worries about Iran nuking the fuck out of Israel, yet it is the Israelis with the nukes pointing outward.
Can you blame them for wanting to close the arms gap but that seems unlikely but it suits America to exaggerate this.

My poz girlfiend lives in Tehran and I may be visiting her soon. They are rather blase about the whole thing, they have seen it all before. Her brother's best friend was blown up as a child by US armed Iraqis in the 1980's yet she and her friends and the MAJORITY of Iranians would actually welcome UN or US (The same thing these days) intervention to get rid of their monkey of a leader, who only clings to power by pleasing the hardliners. VERY RICH HARDLINERS by the way. The US were completely caught blind sided by the puppet Shah's deposing in 1979 but are still hoping for a public revolt the other way this time. The whole Israeli initiative will give them a perfect excuse if the Syrians and Iranians escalate things. Watch the Golan Heights in the next few days or weeks.

Yeah it's all about oil. The Iranians really scared the US by threatening to sell in Euros recently, the way the US is backing Israel and not peace talks could see Europe going along with this. That would be a huge economic disaster for Americans.

Bombing the Lebanese for 'harbouring' Hizbollah is like bombing Dublin to get at the IRA or London to get at the paramilitary loyalists. There is not a lot they can do.

Like I said it's complicated but religion has bugger all to do with it. Israelis of all faiths coexist peacefully in many cities in Israel like Jaffa and Jerusalem. Just like they did when the Crusaders arrived and killed who ever they found.

Albert Einstein was once asked how World War 3 would be fought. His reply was a rather stoical " I can't answer that precisely but I can say how WW4 will be fought, with sticks and stones".

I preferred it when leaders like Napoleon and Julius Caesar were in the frontline spurring the little people on and not turning up on an aircraft carrier in safe waters after the battles and declaring 'Mission Accomplished'.

I think it will fizzle out like before.

Aldous

PS What SPF Sun Screen should I take to Iran?

 

 
« Last Edit: July 26, 2006, 10:09:06 AM by AldousOrwell »

Offline dario

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Re: world war 3
« Reply #33 on: July 22, 2006, 03:53:20 PM »
Aldous,
do you think that Iran has the right to have nuclear bombs?

D
... when I was young, I never needed anyone, making love was just for fun, those days are gone ... Eric Carmen (Raspberries)

Offline AldousOrwell

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Re: world war 3
« Reply #34 on: July 22, 2006, 04:32:23 PM »
Hi Dario

Like I wrote I'm staying neutral.

No one has the right to have nuclear bombs. The old stand off kept Americans and Russians safe while other nationalities did more of the dying from 1946 - 2000 than all countries did from 1900-1945.

My country has a strict no-nukes policy. Even if it meant souring relations. Someone was looking for a new Gandhi, try Helen Clark our PM. In fact we had three women running the country for the last ten years. We have a knowledge based economy not an ignorance based one.

We rely on our isolation but it did not stop France from blowing up the Rainbow Warrior and leaving a 14 year old girl without a father. The world really came to our aid then ...not! In fact both captured bombers (terrorists?) were decorated but not before one got the other pregnant in their French Prison near Tahiti.

Funny old world eh!

Thanks for asking

Aldous
« Last Edit: July 22, 2006, 04:37:51 PM by AldousOrwell »

Offline Cliff

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Re: world war 3
« Reply #35 on: July 23, 2006, 08:05:01 AM »
This is a war that Israel will not win.  This is just a repeat of the fighting from the early 80's.  Israel didn't gain peace from that war and it's certainly not going to gain it now.  My biggest complaint with Israel,(besides it's openly and legal discrimination of its Arab citizens), is the lack of proportionate response when it is attacked.  Almost always the deaths from Israeli citizens can be counted on one or two hands, while the deaths of their neighbors, (who are just as innocent), can be counted in the hundreds, (soon to be thousands).  Israel has a formidable army, probably 2nd best in the world, (paid for by American taxpayers), and their neighbors effectively throw stones and rocks at them, (mind you a figure of speech).  And when rocks and stones are thrown at them, Israel responds with the full might of its army, destroying infrastructure that was recently rebuilt.  And they wonder why the world grimaces.

Add to that an effective apartheid state the country runs, (not just speaking about Palestine), but speaking about the second class citizenship given to Arab-Israelis.  Or the struggles Arab-majority towns face in a Jewish nation that is intent on reducing their numbers and making their life as miserable as possible, (in hopes that they will emigrate or at least stop having children in mass numbers).

Lebanon is (was) a dynamic nation, with a population evenly split.  Israel is now bombing the very neighborhoods (Christians) that supported it the most during previous wars.  What on Earth could they possibly expect to gain from this?  Lasting peace?  Doubtful.  Proof of their military might?  No one doubts this Mr. Prime Minister with no war experience.

This isn't a war of Arab vs Jew, especially considering Iran is behind all of this and Iran is not an Arab nation.  The Arab nations have all been fairly silent on this war, and some (Jordan, Saudi Arabia and Egypt) have been openly critical of Hezbollah, primarily because they too have recently suffered terrorist attacks, attacks the world has all but forgotten.

So Israel wants to bomb Lebanon back 20 years.  Great.  Well done guys.  And then what, cause I promise you Hezbollah ain't going anywhere, anytime soon?

Offline swede_dish

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Re: world war 3
« Reply #36 on: July 23, 2006, 02:23:56 PM »
I say...we need to get everyone together and play a nice soothing game of yahtzee. Or perhaps charades....pictionary anyone?

All the middle east needs is a middle school slumber party.  Everyone starts off ok..then someone acts a fool and most people end up crying. It all ends with a heartfelt hug and a "friends forever" pinky sware over a steaming hot cup of cocoa. Or perhaps a nice, cold, frothy beer...since I hear the weather is stiffling!
"I married a German. Every night I dress up as Poland and he invades me. "
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Offline jack

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Re: world war 3
« Reply #37 on: July 23, 2006, 07:33:39 PM »
spent some time with people from Lebanon last week. They are very happy with Israel and hope that the US,for the first time, lets Israel destroy the terror groups that are merely puppets of Syria and Iran. Anyone calling for a ceasefire or peace is only helping the terrorists and those that finance them(syria,iran) and those that profit from them(ruskies,china). These folks still have family in beriut and are in full support of Israel.
yeah, it was a huge mistake to give the Jews a homeland in this area, but the horse is out of the barn on that one.
read "from beriut of jerusalem".

Offline blondbeauty

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Re: world war 3
« Reply #38 on: July 23, 2006, 07:55:15 PM »
Muslims dont mind to die because they are supposed to go to a paradise with 70 virgins for each one of them. I dont know where do muslim women go after death...Muslim religion has to extend all over the world and if they need to kill they will do it. Anyone who is not muslim is a dirty pig for them and does not deserve to live. If they change to another religion they are killed by other memebers of the muslim community.
Islamism is far away from freedon and tolerance. They are fanatics and that is why they are so dangerous for the free occidental world.
I wish Israel all the best.
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Offline Lis

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Re: world war 3
« Reply #39 on: July 23, 2006, 08:33:35 PM »
women are a means to an end... they are only there to serve a function... i guess we could be compaired to a car... we are just there to serve... to assist the MAN.....that is why you hear little about we females..
poz 1986....

Offline Biggums

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Re: world war 3
« Reply #40 on: July 23, 2006, 10:10:28 PM »
I heard it summed up well by one of the talking heads the other day.  If Hezbollah would release the soldiers and stop launching missiles the conflict would be over.  If Israel gave up the fight, every Jew over there would be slaughtered.
44 year old gay man .......just broke up with the only man I've ever really loved.

You can love completely without complete understanding.

Offline Lis

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Re: world war 3
« Reply #41 on: July 23, 2006, 11:17:57 PM »
Why? there are others here that can express them selves far better then i BUT... I live in the SAC (strategic air command) range of fire... all of this is insane... Lotus is right... lets get ALL the KIDS  together and let them play a board game... its so sad.... and pathetic...
poz 1986....

Offline otherplaces

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Re: world war 3
« Reply #42 on: July 24, 2006, 01:37:30 AM »

Cliff, right on.

Blonde, I'm no fan of Islamist extremism...especially towards women.  But if you think the Jews in Israel or the Xtians in the US have less of an idiot factor in their beliefs you need to re-evaluate the situation. If your religion says it's okay to mass murder you've got a problem.  Right now Israel is the one with the power to do it, so they get my ire.

Swede-dish, I think if we could get all the kids together for a board game it could solve the problem.  Not today, but definitely down the line.  And I'm not kidding about that.

I submit a link that I found rather upsetting: http://www.tinyrevolution.com/mt/archives/001015.html

brian




Offline dario

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Re: world war 3
« Reply #43 on: July 24, 2006, 06:53:25 AM »
brian,
probably very few of us here have any sympathy to the neo-cons in America.  However, I have to side with Blonde here even though he made some few sweeping statements.

If you want to see something really upsetting about indoctrination of kids look at this and click on No: #1184 http://www.memritv.org/Search.asp?ACT=S5&P1=15

You might also find interseting the clip   No:  #1165

Dario

... when I was young, I never needed anyone, making love was just for fun, those days are gone ... Eric Carmen (Raspberries)

Offline dario

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Re: world war 3
« Reply #44 on: July 24, 2006, 07:03:53 AM »
Brian,

this is even better!!!  It is a cartoon that is show to children on Lebanese TV to teach them culture!

Click No: #964 here  http://www.memritv.org/Search.asp?ACT=S5&P1=15&P3=3

D
... when I was young, I never needed anyone, making love was just for fun, those days are gone ... Eric Carmen (Raspberries)

Offline jack

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Re: world war 3
« Reply #45 on: July 24, 2006, 12:19:10 PM »
israel is defending itself,plain and simple. Only idiots would deny them that right. We have stopped Israel from destroying the terrorists for 30 years and its only made things worse. We even let the mass murderer Arafat visit the white house in an attempt at peace with these animals. That doesnt work,they only understand one thing and that is brute force and Israel seems to be the only country with the balls and courage to stand up to the terrorists.

Offline Dachshund

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Re: world war 3
« Reply #46 on: July 24, 2006, 03:23:32 PM »




                      PERPETUAL WAR......PERPETUAL PROFIT

Offline Cliff

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Re: world war 3
« Reply #47 on: July 24, 2006, 03:41:50 PM »
Dario,

That website seems pretty biased.  It's looks like nothing more than right-wing propaganda, meant to portray all Arabs as violent, murderers and anti-Semitic.  I doubt it presents a balanced view of the Middle East.  It's akin to showing a KKK rally and using that as a gauge for how racists white people are in America. 

It's a distorted and unfair view.

Cliff

Offline jack

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Re: world war 3
« Reply #48 on: July 24, 2006, 03:57:11 PM »
Only the Arabs would have the balls to start a war and then ask for a cease fire when they are getting their butts kicked as usual. Let Israel finish off as many of the syrian and iranian forces as they can,it will save us the work in the future.
If we weren't wasting time using our troops for target practice in Iraq we could have already leveled both countries.
We must gain the respect of the middle east and force is all they understand.

Offline dario

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Re: world war 3
« Reply #49 on: July 24, 2006, 04:12:56 PM »
Cliff,
In a way you are correct.  But don't underestimate the support of those views among Arabs especially youths!!! The problem is that a very substantial part of the Arab population actually shares the views of those mad chaps that you see interviewed in MEMRI TV.

Moreover, most of those video clips are samples from the mainstream TV stations of the Arab world!  Would you imagine something similar on BBC or Euronews?!?  Added to this you see many times people with key positions (ministers, members of parliaments, presidents etc) propounding those views. 

Such TV programs are not rare in the Arab world.  Rather, they are very very very common.  Maybe if you have sattellite TV you can see yourself.  (The problem is that you don't understand Arabic ... I studied it at school and can understand it fairly well).

salaam!!

D
... when I was young, I never needed anyone, making love was just for fun, those days are gone ... Eric Carmen (Raspberries)

Offline Dachshund

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Re: world war 3
« Reply #50 on: July 24, 2006, 04:23:49 PM »
Let me get this straight...the USA sells arms to Israel...Israel drops bombs on Lebanon...we promise to send humanitarian aid to Lebanon an on an on an on an on an on an on an on an on.................................................................

Offline dario

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Re: world war 3
« Reply #51 on: July 24, 2006, 04:40:24 PM »
dachsund,

Bravo!  Perfect comment!!  Indeed, Americans sell arms to Saudis as well!  It is called CAPITALISM.

Ironically the only "enemy" of the USA that was "defeated" without a single bullet being fired was the Soviet Union!  Do you remember the mighty USSR?  It dismantled itself spontaneously without a single US or Nato soldier invading Soviet soil.  That was really bad news for the armament market in the US.  Anyway, there were still enough wars around for the capitalists to keep selling ...

Yet, Dachsund, the quarrels of the Semites (Arabs vs Jews) are VERY COMPLICATED. 

salaam al'eik
d
... when I was young, I never needed anyone, making love was just for fun, those days are gone ... Eric Carmen (Raspberries)

Offline Cliff

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Re: world war 3
« Reply #52 on: July 24, 2006, 04:45:54 PM »
It doesn't take a genius to figure out that the website you have linked in this forum is clearly biased.  I can look at the website and see that the information provided was cherry-picked by the authors (so no it's not a sample of mainstream tv stations as you say, because a sample would include all views and topics, not just those the author wants you to see, while conveniently excluding those he/she doesn't want you to see).  

I can see how inflammatory the views presented and can easily guess that the person(s) behind the website has an agenda.  And I can also guess that the agenda is to provide the most inflammatory message they can find, and present it as views commonly held by all Arabs.  I can also surmise that the same author would NOT include inflammatory views held by Israelis.

Do you know anything about the organization or the person behind that website?  I'd be interested in knowing who they are.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hal,

You forgot one small step.

The USA government gives Israel $3 billion a year to buy arms, the USA then allows its corporations to sell arms to Israel using guess what...the same $3 billion we just gave them...funny how that works!

And guess whose stock, (and net income), is gonna rise the longer this war lasts?

Offline Dachshund

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Re: world war 3
« Reply #53 on: July 24, 2006, 04:46:03 PM »



                      PERPETUAL WAR......PERPETUAL PROFIT

Offline jack

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Re: world war 3
« Reply #54 on: July 24, 2006, 04:57:37 PM »
a biased website? who would have thunk it? find me one US TV station or website that is notbiased in one direction or the other. I think  dario's point is that these clips were televised or printed at all.
Anyone falling for the case of Israel using excess force is a sucker. Thats what the Syrians and Iranians want. They were hoping to get the usual reaction from UN,europe,and US, criticism of Israel. This is the first time I can remember US not falling for this ploy.

Offline Dachshund

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Re: world war 3
« Reply #55 on: July 24, 2006, 04:57:55 PM »
dachsund,

Bravo!  Perfect comment!!  Indeed, Americans sell arms to Saudis as well!  It is called CAPITALISM.

Ironically the only "enemy" of the USA that was "defeated" without a single bullet being fired was the Soviet Union!  Do you remember the mighty USSR?  It dismantled itself spontaneously without a single US or Nato soldier invading Soviet soil.  That was really bad news for the armament market in the US.  Anyway, there were still enough wars around for the capitalists to keep selling ...

Yet, Dachsund, the quarrels of the Semites (Arabs vs Jews) are VERY COMPLICATED. 

salaam al'eik
d

We upgraded from bullets to surface to air missiles supplied by the USA to the mujaheddin in Afghanistan. Armament makers in the USA in the 80's were living the high life. Russia is back...bigger and badder and as repressive as ever.

Offline swede_dish

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Re: world war 3
« Reply #56 on: July 24, 2006, 05:07:36 PM »
oy vey.
"I married a German. Every night I dress up as Poland and he invades me. "
-Bette Midler

Offline dario

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Re: world war 3
« Reply #57 on: July 24, 2006, 05:12:59 PM »
Hal,
I agree ... Russia is back and slightly badder.  (But not that bigger).

I hope you are not one of those Americans who believe that the Soviet Union broke down because the Americans helped the Mujahedin defeat the Russians in Afghanistan.  If anything, the Americans there created Bin Laden! (Sometimes capitalism has its boomerang effects).

D
_____________

Cliff,
I agree perfectly with you that Memri TV is biased!   The only reason I put that link was because I guess that many here (unlike myself) do not understand Arabic and on that site there are translations and transcripts in english.  You may well want to link diretly to Al-Jazeera, Lebanon TV etc ... and see and hear for yourself.  But you would need a translator that sits next to you ...

ciao bello!
dario
... when I was young, I never needed anyone, making love was just for fun, those days are gone ... Eric Carmen (Raspberries)

Offline Cliff

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Re: world war 3
« Reply #58 on: July 24, 2006, 06:12:35 PM »
Russia is only powerful again because of high oil and gas prices.  Once prices drop...okay, if prices drop,  there goes the comeback kid.  Russia will just be one of the few nations that's actually going backwards, (as in decaying infrastructure, population decreases and increasing crime/corruption).  Plus it will be bankrupt, like it was in the 90s.  But I do like Putin's stride.  The man can walk.

Putin wants to buy up one of Britain's gas companies and has all but threatened to cut off gas supplies to Europe, if he doesn't get his way.  Can we say oil embargo, aka 70s style?

Offline jack

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Re: world war 3
« Reply #59 on: July 24, 2006, 07:26:47 PM »
dario, i dont understand how capitalism was the cause of Bin Laden? It is true that US support of afgans via paks created bin and his hoodlums, but the war was waged by one man, charlie wilson from east texas. He used politics to buy the support of Tip oniel and of course Casey couldn't resist a chance to fuck with the ruskies since it was supported by dems and thus gave him protection. At the same time we were supplying freedom fighters in central america against the ruskies. Charlies war in afganistan was more secret than the central american war. The irony is overwhelming. We created Bin and his bunch and they were still using our arms when we invaded after 911.
The Russian military lost much credibility and heart in afganistan.

Offline Jody

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Re: world war 3
« Reply #60 on: July 24, 2006, 08:20:17 PM »
KILL ALL THE HEZBOLLAH, KILL ALL THE HAMAS, KILL, KILL, KILL...Unfortunatley this line of thought and action just breeds more and more hatred, kill one and create 10 more and where or where does it all end???

It has reached a point where I don't even want to watch the news these days, it is way too depressing...Usually I get home and watch the end of the local news and the start of the World News but tonight, after burying myself in my work today, I just put on some soothing, light jazz music and went to the gym to exercise a bit.

I have become a bit numb (not by choice mind you) to world affairs- Death, displacement, dismemberment, destruction, disdain, it has become intolerable.

I think back to the movie "Brazil", a rather dark film...Long before the movie one of the characters was a matriarch of either the Tate or Campbell family in the TV show "Soap" which was the first we saw of Billy Crystal who ironically played a gay guy named Jody...Anyway this actress was in Brazil and she is doing lunch with the ladies in a time and place with great political turmoil and violence...So a bomb goes off in the restaurant, not too far from where they are seated and people are killed and maimed and ambulances come and there is total chaos at that end of the restaurant but she and the ladies don't even skip a beat, not even a glance over or a pause in conversation, they just continue to eat and gossip like nothing ever happened.

I don't ever want to become like that.

Jody  :'(
"Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world".
 "Try to discover that you are the song that the morning brings."

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Offline swede_dish

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Re: world war 3
« Reply #61 on: July 24, 2006, 09:37:06 PM »
I remember Brazil...I agree...I don't ever want to end up like that.
"I married a German. Every night I dress up as Poland and he invades me. "
-Bette Midler

Offline AldousOrwell

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Re: world war 3
« Reply #62 on: July 25, 2006, 09:36:17 AM »
Brazil a cool movie, directed by a guy from Minnesota who hung out with a bunch of English guys.

The actress you describe is Katherine Helmond by the way.

It foretold the future in a dystopian way. I was criticized for making the same point about HIV, yet people champion this film in terms of people lacking compassion when it comes to everything else. Interesting.

Aldous Orwell

 


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