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Author Topic: Pecking Order - Druggies at the bottom, Babies at the top  (Read 15739 times)

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Offline Moffie65

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Re: Pecking Order - Druggies at the bottom, Babies at the top
« Reply #50 on: July 17, 2006, 11:23:14 AM »
Quote
I'm very surprised at Moffie as well. Tim, you yourself have noted that the straight, white population is not being reached with hiv prevention efforts. That lack of targeting does not stop when a diagnosis is made. I would have thought you of all people would have seen that.

Ann, I do see that, and to this point I completely agree with you.  The fact remains that the original poster of this thread came here with such a feeling of entitlement, that it was very disturbing.  Oh how I wish I could demand a Gay therapist, and actually get one.  I tire of being an object of curiosity to straight therapists, who have three times the schooling that I have.  Unfortunately if we only deal with data, this is by far a heterosexual dominated disease, and to think that just because the Westernized countries of the world, that have been blessed with an infection rate that is centrallly located in already marginalized parts of society; leaves us wide open for assumptions that are not true or should be believed.  I have always fought hard for people to pay attention to the fact that this is a viral protein that cares not who you are, and I know you know that Ann.  I just couldn't get past the fact that this man came here with an agenda that was obviously meant to divide and conquer.  That is what I took offense at, and that alone.  There is absolutely not  one reason in the world why a straight man should go into an ASO of any kind, and demand and expect only straight people to give him assistance.  PALEEEEEZ.  If that were the case with us in the beginning, we would have all died years ago.  I say if you are getting any help at all, thank the God Damned faries from the past that got out in the streets and died for us to have the systems we now have in place. 

I don't care how you dress it Ann, I have been living with Homophobia for the whole of my life, and most of it in God's Name.  I can see a Homophobe from the horizon, and I don't have any more patience for them than someone who likewise is a Heterophobe.

In Love and Support.
The Bible contains 6 admonishments to homosexuals,
and 362 to heterosexuals.
This doesn't mean that God doesn't love heterosexuals,
It's just that they need more supervision.
Lynn Lavne

Offline Ann

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Re: Pecking Order - Druggies at the bottom, Babies at the top
« Reply #51 on: July 17, 2006, 11:27:26 AM »
Maybe you and I are reading a different thread Moffie. I never once saw where he went into an ASO and demanded that he only dealt with straight people. I did, however, see several times where he acknowledged the fact that we all owe so much to the gay men who advocated and agitated for drugs and services.

I see nothing wrong with asking for a straight counselor, just as I see nothing wrong with a gay man asking for a gay counselor. That's all he did and from what I understand, he got the standard "you're homophobic" reply to his request.

Ann
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Offline Moffie65

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Re: Pecking Order - Druggies at the bottom, Babies at the top
« Reply #52 on: July 17, 2006, 11:34:00 AM »
Ann,

I apologise to you, and to Aldous, and all the other self identified Heterosexuals on this thread.  I am obviously too sick to be engaging in this type of thread/discussion. 

I meant no harm, and have obviously not been able to see enough of the details to offer intelligence to this discussion.  I now bow out, and go to the doctor to see if my virus is going to behave.

In Love and Suppport.
The Bible contains 6 admonishments to homosexuals,
and 362 to heterosexuals.
This doesn't mean that God doesn't love heterosexuals,
It's just that they need more supervision.
Lynn Lavne

Offline Dachshund

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Re: Pecking Order - Druggies at the bottom, Babies at the top
« Reply #53 on: July 17, 2006, 11:35:22 AM »
Aldous,

The backlash you received as a result of your first ever post in these forums was because it was quite possible that you were someone who only wanted to stir up trouble and frighten people in the Am I Infected forum. You have to understand that this has happened before now and some people are understandably wary, as a result.

I'm sure you will find that nobody on this side of the forum cares how you got infected. And I don't mean that in a snotty way at all. I mean - it just doesn't matter. We're all hiv positive and there's no point in haggling over how any of us got infected. That's in the past and what counts now is how we live our lives knowing we are hiv positive.

Anyway, welcome to the forum. If you haven't already, please check out the Welcome thread at the top of the Living forum as it will let you know all of what this website has to offer. The forums are only the tip of the iceberg, so to speak.

Ann


Ann, even you would have to admit Aldous' postings sounded racist and homophobic and were laced with incendiary words and phrases. How do you think you would react if he were describing white women in that way? As gay men we are able to pick up the subtle and not so subtle undertones of homophobia...we live it everyday. Like you we did not choose our sexuality.

Each persons perspective is different...Friday I sat in my doctors office and noticed the posters on the wall. Each portrayed men and women embracing with a warning that HIV was not a "gay" disease. I thought my how things have changed. In a waiting room of about a dozen it was me and one other man...don't know if he was gay or not. There are three social workers on staff...all white women. I wonder how the ten black women in the room handle that. In America at this time you don't have much choice. Oh, not to mention the black and Hispanic males.

We do the best we can with what we have. Race, sexuality, religion, and most of all economics dictate services. You have stated in your blog it makes you angry that you don't do more...now maybe you will.

Peace,
Hal


Offline David_CA

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Re: Pecking Order - Druggies at the bottom, Babies at the top
« Reply #54 on: July 17, 2006, 11:49:57 AM »
Thanks Ann.  I was typing a reply and got the notice that a new reply had been posted.  You stated pretty much what I was typing.  Guys, unknot those panties!  He did not demand anything... Like I said, I would want a gay counselor, if I had one.  I'd even ask for one.  And I'm not a 'heterophobe'.  Most of my friends are straight. But for counseling, for me to feel really comfortable, to make things easier, I'd ask for a gay person to work with.  Just because we (as gays) are discriminated against does not give us any reason to not understand how somebody else might feel that feels discriminated against. 

Our area is seeing an increase in HIV and syphilis, according to our local health department.  The people that work with the health department will contact folks who are named as 'contacts' by those that test poz for either of those two things.  The initial person who contacted me is an African-American female.  The second person I dealt with was also an African-American female.  I didn't have any say in who 'interviewed' me.  Neither did my partner.  I did not feel comfortable with her asking me things like did I allow another man to insert his penis into my anus without protection.  I felt almost violated.  I did not want to talk about that to her.  Maybe I was being hyper-sensitive... I don't know.  The fact is, as nice and professional as she was, I would have a difficult time with somebody like her as a counselor.  Maybe in time it wouldn't matter, but initially, it would. 

Sometimes, I think we forget what it's like, how it is initially, to be diagnosed.  Let's not forget that we have people who adjust fine, some who intentionally go out and infect others, some who withdraw and won't seek any treatment, some who become bitter towards the world... the list goes on.  Let's try to not lose sight of the fact that this is a person who is diagnosed as HIV+; he wants to feel comfortable with his emotional care.  Maybe he's used a few un-PC terms... I don't know.  I'm gay and I wasn't offended.  I know sometimes, to make a point, one has to use the extreme as an example.  I re-read it a couple of times, and I'm still not offended. 

David
Black Friday 03-03-2006
03-23-06 CD4 359 @27.4% VL 75,938
06-01-06 CD4 462 @24.3% VL > 100,000
08-15-06 CD4 388 @22.8% VL >  "
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  Atripla started 12-01-2006
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05-19-08 CD4 695 @33.1% VL < 48 undetectable!
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05-23-11 CD4 846 @36.8% VL 80
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Offline carousel

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Re: Pecking Order - Druggies at the bottom, Babies at the top
« Reply #55 on: July 17, 2006, 11:52:33 AM »
Hi Ann

The problem is that rather than having a calm argument about the services that we offered, discrimination etc and all the other issues that have been raised in this thread, it sparks off into a great big row.  Name calling, angry language and all.

I'm sat here wishing I'd never posted what I did and feeling a bit silly.  

That still does not take away the prejudice.  I just wish that these matters could be discussed without the incendiary language and then we won't get the angry retorts.  It's a two way thing.

I'm off to Soho for a drink with friends.

Offline clarke

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Re: Pecking Order - Druggies at the bottom, Babies at the top
« Reply #56 on: July 17, 2006, 12:07:51 PM »
"breeders", hmmm, hadn't have had to read or hear that word for a little over a year.  The last time I heard that word was from a Gay Black male who called himself my caseworker.  He isn't a caseworker any more, and now I have a Black woman who is "supposed" to be my caseworker.  Problem is tho', she cares squat about this str8 white married boy's probs.  So, I'm back to solving my own problems without the resources of a "caseworker".  Oh, and for what it's worth, the organization I was a volunteer for in West TN. was taken down by a str8 Black woman who used grant $$$ for her own benefit.  Guess what?  Peeps are to scared down there to do a thing for fear she'll yell "discrimination!!  you're doing this cause I'm Black and Female" (something which happens frequently in the South.

My wife & I go to our clinic, and see "0" posters of str8 couples or men or women on the walls.  Just mainly Latin women with babies with wording about testing for their babies safety and about the "safe" drugs they can use while pregnant.  Oh, and so far in the 3 years we've been at this clinic, we've never seen a "couple" of any kind in there.  And that goes for the clinic in West TN. as well, except the only couples we saw were Gay couples giving us the once over (or 2-3 times over).

I wonder if this thread has outlived being useful.  I know when I was an admin for an online game clan, threads that got this out-of-control were locked up and discarded after reviewing the content.

Offline Terry

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Re: Pecking Order - Druggies at the bottom, Babies at the top
« Reply #57 on: July 17, 2006, 12:26:07 PM »

I see nothing wrong with asking for a straight counselor, just as I see nothing wrong with a gay man asking for a gay counselor. That's all he did and from what I understand, he got the standard "you're homophobic" reply to his request.

Ann


I could care less if the person that is treating me is black, white, gay, straight, male or female. My only criteria would be that this person be Knowledgeable and a dedicated professional.

Stigma is still the biggest problem with this disease. Gay straight or whatever!

For the first time ever since my diagnosis of Aids, I have come across a doctor who is treating me for Prostatitis and he openly has a problem with my having HIV. I don’t consider him a Homophobe. I consider him the wrong doctor. So I’ve canceled the biopsy he was to perform and am seeking a Professional.

 
Terry

Offline AldousOrwell

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Re: Pecking Order - Druggies at the bottom, Babies at the top
« Reply #58 on: July 17, 2006, 12:34:25 PM »
I have no problem ending this thread. But I have always tried to stick up for myself and others less able.

I think some readers confuse my discussing homophobia (an 'irrational' fear) and racism, with actually making homophobic comments myself. I was careful not too. In this society it seems everything is polarised , if you are not for something you are automatically against it. Anyone who calls for a Lebanese/Israel ceasefire can be branded an anti-semite for instance.

The last thing I wanted to do was add to anyone's misery we already have shitloads of that.

I must reiterate that I took no offence at being called a breeder. I went to Gay Pride in Brighton one year and had it explained that it is just a comical way of saying straight. Maybe me and that guy are opposite sides of the same coin. I mean no one any illwill.

I really must get on with my job hunting.

Thanks for Referreeing. Not sure if I'm Zidane or Matterazzi in this kerfuffle.

Aldous x  

Online Joe K

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Re: Pecking Order - Druggies at the bottom, Babies at the top
« Reply #59 on: July 17, 2006, 12:54:30 PM »
The reason that this thread seems so "uncomfortable" is that it is!  Not so much by the words, but by the issues those words represent.  I read this thread and then re-read it and my opinion has not changed.  You cannot make sweeping comments and use inflammatory words and not expect for any true meaning to be lost in all the rhetoric.

What I read is the lament at the loss of the ASOs that so many of us worked so hard to create.  But in America, our ASOs are being screwed by the right wing fanatics, who have decided that religious dogma is much more important that saving lives.  And this hatred cuts across all cultures and sexualities, because HIV remains a stigmatized disease and we need look no further than this post to see this illustrated.

Aldous asking to see a straight counselor is not so unusual, depending upon his issues.  When I went through my domestic violence recovery, I was fortunate to have a gay moderator, which made groups much more effective, because he understood so much of the gay psyche and the things that influence us.  We all have different needs and what we should be angry about is that Aldous was refused the very services that he needed to adjust to his new status.

My whole point is that we must stop feeding upon each other and face the real threats to our treatment and services.  In too many parts of the world, governments have all but ignored their HIV populations and the most disappointing part is that most citizens of these countries do not care.  So rather than flinging accusations, we should be brain-storming ideas to begin to affect change.

Yes, there are dozen of needs that are not being met, for all pos people and unless we demand change, then our legislators will just continue ignoring us.  You can't ignore the history of HIV and all that I suggest is that more of you need to get involved.  Learn how your local government works, how funding is handled and who gets what to do what.  Get involved with your ASOs or whatever, to insure that everyone is getting the services they need and deserve.

Personally, I'm over remaining a victim of anything, because in the end, if you don't work to change the system, then don't you dare complain.  You cannot do the latter, without attempting the former.

Offline Andy Velez

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Re: Pecking Order - Druggies at the bottom, Babies at the top
« Reply #60 on: July 17, 2006, 01:55:48 PM »
Aldous, you have definitely made an entrance.

In my experience the sexual preference of a therapist is not as important as whether or not the match is otherwise a good one with the patient. A perfectly qualified therapist, gay or straight, male or female, may for whatever individual reasons just not be the right one for you.

It takes time to sort out who you will be able to work with effectively. As in other relationships so-called chemistry at the beginning can be uhmm appealing but doesn't necessarily mean it will get the job done in the long run.

On occasion when I am asked to make a referral I will ask if the person has a gender preference. There are instances when someone may benefit for their specific reasons by being with a man or a woman. There are also times in a person's treatment when switching to someone else of a different gender can be helpful.

Patients present all kinds of resistances to saying everything. That's just a standard part of the deal. He/she can't understand me because he/she is or is or isn't (you fill in the blank). The important thing is to give it your best shot by speaking as truthfully as you can with whomever you work with including telling your therapist/analyst what's wrong with them. If things go right, by the time you finish treatment you will be cured and your therapist will be better at his/her job than before you worked together.

I support you finding the right person to work with. You'll have to use your instinct about whomever it is. I will also suggest that you not be hasty in considering that a good therapist who maybe gay or a woman might still be capable of doing the job you need. So tuck that thought in there somewhere.

Also, I have led and participated in many groups where the members were predominantly but not exclusively gay men. The cross-pollination of experiences can often work very well, because specifics notwithstanding, the emotional truths often seem to be pretty much universal.

It's a matter of dealing with resistances to saying everything. Resistances to progressive communication can show up in all sorts of ways. We've had a taste of that here in this thread. It takes some effort to sort these things out and then more is revealed with more to come.

Lastly I will repeat here as I did in the thread you began in the Am I Infected Forum, my objection to what you wrote there was that it raised an unsubstantiated and totally speculative possibility as the cause of your infection. Doing that in a section where people are often in a highly anxious and emotional state seemed something bound to stir things up unnecessarily. 

With that in mind, let's see how things go here in the future.

Cheers,
Andy Velez

Offline Cliff

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Re: Pecking Order - Druggies at the bottom, Babies at the top
« Reply #61 on: July 17, 2006, 02:46:54 PM »
I've read through this thread a few times, and I just don't see the objection to providing additional services to heterosexuals.  In fact, I see quite a few people actually agree that more should be done in this area.  I hope people don't take this thread as proof that gay men (or minorities), don't think heterosexuals or whites should receive proper access to HIV services.  I would imagine that for the vast majority, nothing could be further from the truth.

What I do see, is people taking exception to the tone and spefic comments made that comes off as insensitive (at best) and as belittling of gays and minorities (at worst).  Whether or not it was intentional, it was a feeling that obviously a lot of people came to.  How you say something is just as important as what you say.  Your words and demeanor can easily put people off, even if they find no fault in the basic message.  From the start, people focused on how he was making his point, not the point that he was trying to make (by-and-large).

I find these comments quite inflammatory and one shouldn't be surprised if people aren't receptive to the message when it's cloacked in thinly vailed attempts to belittle other communities (not just by Aldus but also by Clarke [especially that last message]. 
Quote
"heterophobia"

"We even got into trouble by wanting to make it clear that we do not want to get bogged down in sorting immigration issues for Africans."

'Culturally European Heterosexuals'

"a hypersensitive poz gay world"

From Clarke
"Frankly, I think the word "discrimination" has been thrown around too much and too lightly.  I've been "discriminated" against because of my height (I'm 6' 5"), my race (Caucasian), my hair when is was down to my shoulders, because I'm a male, yadda, yadda, yadda." (so we are to believe that 1) people aren't really discriminated against as much as they claim and furthermore 2) discrimination for a white person or someone who is tall or someone with long hair is equivalent to the systematic and pervasive discrimination faced by gays and minorities).

"We are a minority within a minority."

"In reality we have a good ethnic mix with about 40% of members being 'People of Colour' as Oprah would say." (the Oprah bit was a nice touch).

"For instance a new separate clinic for straights, as politically incorrect as it may at first seem, would shift the burden away from the original now over stretched clinics. I suggest nothing more controversial than a left handed person wanting a special can opener"

"A general 'de-gaying' is in order"

"Once the spotlight is moved from the Gay and African communities stigma may be reduced in time."

"Non African, Non IV Drug using Straight people like me represent the dawn of the nightmare scenario." (as if HIV isn't already a nightmare for other communities)

Could you honestly imagine me sitting in on one of your support group meetings if Str8Talk did not exist and mentioning some of these pertinent points. It would go down as well as Beenie Man at G-A-Y except with ultraviolence.(comparing gay men reaction to a straight man in a support group to an entertainer who says gays should be murdered.)

"…renting a spare room to a straight guy by mistake then asking him to leave upon finding they are not gay."

"You make me sound like a person wanting to jump the council housing list ahead of immigrants, when all I want are more and better houses." (as if the majority of folks on council housing aren't white citizens)

"Gay hardliners want to project certain homophobic stereotypes on to me, as a way of countering my 'third way' ideas." (the gay mafia argument)

"I was advised by other straight activists that I would encounter such rebukes." (I get the point, but comes off as a play on 'gay activits'.)

"Being HIV positive should not force me to adhere to the rules of a private gay members club."

"So where can I go to have an operation to become gay? Shit life would sure be easier." (dismissive of what's it's like to be gay...not funny to some, even if it's suppose to be a joke)

And from Clarke again...

"The last time I heard that word was from a Gay Black male who called himself my caseworker.  He isn't a caseworker any more, and now I have a Black woman who is "supposed" to be my caseworker.  Problem is tho', she cares squat about this str8 white married boy's probs.  So, I'm back to solving my own problems without the resources of a "caseworker".  Oh, and for what it's worth, the organization I was a volunteer for in West TN. was taken down by a str8 Black woman who used grant $$$ for her own benefit.  Guess what?  Peeps are to scared down there to do a thing for fear she'll yell "discrimination!!  you're doing this cause I'm Black and Female" (something which happens frequently in the South."(ah yes, the good old, the man (in this case gay black men and black women) trying to keep the white male down...oh and the "peeps" bit was also a nice touch.  Well done sir.

I completely (100%) agree with Matty and Hal on this one.  I'm sorry but where there is smoke....

- Cliff

P.S.- I don't care for the term "breeder" as well, and did start a thread in the old forums discussing how I found that word disrespectful (especially to the women in the forum).  So the use of that term isn't universally accepted by all gay men.

Offline Sunny20

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Re: Pecking Order - Druggies at the bottom, Babies at the top
« Reply #62 on: July 17, 2006, 04:33:09 PM »
So lots of people want to see this thread fall off the page - I don't. This thread is a perfect example of what happens all too often when the issue of heterosexual hiv/aids support comes up. The straight people who want to see better services for all - INLCLUDING straights - get shouted down and accused of homophobia.

Here's a concrete example of how straight folks are marginalised in every aspect of hiv. In the clinic I attend, the waiting room is also used for the general STI clinics. In this waiting room, there are posters that deal with hiv. There are ones that do it from a gay perspective and there are ones that do it from a black African immigrant perspective. And that's it. Not one poster that speaks to a white eighteen year old straight lad or a newly divorced and dating again woman. And it is any wonder why the British public thinks that hiv is only a gay or African problem? I asked one time why there were no posters that addressed these segments of society and I was told "because no such posters exist".

And I find being called a "breeder", with a sneer that comes across even in print, extremely offensive. I didn't choose my sexuality any more than anyone else did. There is no call for comments such as these on this forum and I see no reason why that language directed at straights should be tolerated.

I'm very surprised at Moffie as well. Tim, you yourself have noted that the straight, white population is not being reached with hiv prevention efforts. That lack of targeting does not stop when a diagnosis is made. I would have thought you of all people would have seen that.

Ann


Offline Sunny20

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Re: Pecking Order - Druggies at the bottom, Babies at the top
« Reply #63 on: July 17, 2006, 04:48:22 PM »
Hi i'm new to this, just wanted to agree with Anne.

I was diagnosed 4 and half years ago.  And i had no idea that a hetosexual group existed, till 2005, and that was from a friend.

I put in a Poster to advertise our group, a year ago, (in my local hospital clinic in West London) and when i went there recently (2 weeks ago) I was quite dissappointed that it was there nomore, replaced instead by a big colourfull picture advertising an African group.

If it wasn't for our recent article in positive nation noone would have know that we exist, as up untill then, the group attendance was around 10-15, now it has doubled.
So on that point I agree in what Adious is saying.... There should be more support for Hetrosexual positives, as i do feel we are viewed as the minority, but judging in the amount of people who have attended our group this year, there are many more out there.... Some travel miles just to meet others.

My first feelings when diagnosed, was not 'when this disease was going to kill me', but rather the isolation I felt, on having noone who could understand how i really felt, and the issues I had facing me... This group gives me that, as we are all facing similiar issues....
I think it very important that we are recognised, as our numbers are increasing......

Offline jkinatl2

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Re: Pecking Order - Druggies at the bottom, Babies at the top
« Reply #64 on: July 17, 2006, 05:06:21 PM »
So lots of people want to see this thread fall off the page - I don't. This thread is a perfect example of what happens all too often when the issue of heterosexual hiv/aids support comes up. The straight people who want to see better services for all - INLCLUDING straights - get shouted down and accused of homophobia.

My objection was, and is, with the tone of the first posts on this forum. This forum has been extremely accepting of anybody and everybody.  Gay, straight,  male, female, straight, gay, and all the muddled middles.

If someone has a beef with the services in their area, and many of us do, then by all means, this is a way to discuss it. But to come in here swinging is hardly the way to enlist allies in the fight.

Now, if someone wants to discuss aidsmeds.com's heterosexism/phobia, or racism, or gender issues, then go for it. With the ability to quote (which even I can figure out from time to time) coming up with specific examples makes the conversation possible.

I do not doubt your experiences. Nor do I doubt the original posters. I do not, however, see aidsmeds.com as indicative of these issues in any way. Then again, I have not been looking.

I do know that the notion that all of us are going to hold hands and sing gentle songs together because of our viral commonality is absurd. Some of us are sick and cranky, some of us are physically damaged by the disease in our brains, and some of us are racist/sexist/insensitive folks with chips on their shoulders. And some folks are just mean.

That's true in ANY community of people. Especially one with such a tenuous commonality.

I have seen rampany mysogeny in the gay male community. Racism too, going from every direction, towards any direction. I have seen utter intolerance for anyone thinking outside the strictly patrolled boundaries, and I have seen the ugly, ugly face of HIV-phobia.

Just like in the straight community. Just like in every one, I submit.

What has consistently astonishd me about aidsmeds.com is that SO MANY good people post here. Are there assholes? You bet, and throw a few bourbons in me and I'll gleefully name names. But by and large, more of us get along here than I ever, ever see in the outside world.

Its a great place to talk about our individual and common problems. It is not, by and large,  a source for those problems.

I strongly urge the original poster to sit back for a few minutes, and read some of the forum. Had he done so, IF he does so, he might understand the tone and the purposes of these threads... and might choose to participate as a member instead of an outsider coming in swinging. At any point, an introduction thread would have been great. Or a clarification thread. It's not like the poster is writing impaired - he puts words together very well, and with very specific intent.

It's that obvious intelligence that made me suspect an agenda. One cannot blame lack of effective communication for the reception of the message, when the message is delivered with both repetition and eloquence.

I am sorry he had a bad experience trying to get a straight therapist. People should be able to find the therapist with whom they feel most comfortable. If that means straight, gay, black, female, quadraplegic, HIV positive, whatever. People have the right to seek that out without judgment.

Me, I would prefer a guy therapist. Not because I don't get along with or like women. But because talking about sexually-related things involves a mindset that I truly believe is chemically different in men and women. It's far harder for me to be totally upfront and honest with a female therapist about the darkest of the dark. That's simply my opinion and my preference.

As for the term "breeder," I place it in the category with "fag"  and "kike" and "nigger."

Even when it is said fondly and with great love, I still wince. Mysogeny and homophobia and racism are uncool, always. And people sometimes forget the compelling power of the written over the spoken word. Inflection and facial expression are absent, and some words are pretty ugly under the best circumstances. These are hardly those.

Again, it is not the subjects of heterophobia and exclusion that make many of us wish this thread would drop off. It's the unfortunate way that these issues were raised by a new poster as an introduction to the forums which put many of us on the defensive.

"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

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Offline Sunny20

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Re: Pecking Order - Druggies at the bottom, Babies at the top
« Reply #65 on: July 17, 2006, 06:22:50 PM »
My objection was, and is, with the tone of the first posts on this forum. This forum has been extremely accepting of anybody and everybody.  Gay, straight,  male, female, straight, gay, and all the muddled middles.

If someone has a beef with the services in their area, and many of us do, then by all means, this is a way to discuss it. But to come in here swinging is hardly the way to enlist allies in the fight.

Now, if someone wants to discuss aidsmeds.com's heterosexism/phobia, or racism, or gender issues, then go for it. With the ability to quote (which even I can figure out from time to time) coming up with specific examples makes the conversation possible.

I do not doubt your experiences. Nor do I doubt the original posters. I do not, however, see aidsmeds.com as indicative of these issues in any way. Then again, I have not been looking.

I do know that the notion that all of us are going to hold hands and sing gentle songs together because of our viral commonality is absurd. Some of us are sick and cranky, some of us are physically damaged by the disease in our brains, and some of us are racist/sexist/insensitive folks with chips on their shoulders. And some folks are just mean.

That's true in ANY community of people. Especially one with such a tenuous commonality.

I have seen rampany mysogeny in the gay male community. Racism too, going from every direction, towards any direction. I have seen utter intolerance for anyone thinking outside the strictly patrolled boundaries, and I have seen the ugly, ugly face of HIV-phobia.

Just like in the straight community. Just like in every one, I submit.

What has consistently astonishd me about aidsmeds.com is that SO MANY good people post here. Are there assholes? You bet, and throw a few bourbons in me and I'll gleefully name names. But by and large, more of us get along here than I ever, ever see in the outside world.

Its a great place to talk about our individual and common problems. It is not, by and large,  a source for those problems.

I strongly urge the original poster to sit back for a few minutes, and read some of the forum. Had he done so, IF he does so, he might understand the tone and the purposes of these threads... and might choose to participate as a member instead of an outsider coming in swinging. At any point, an introduction thread would have been great. Or a clarification thread. It's not like the poster is writing impaired - he puts words together very well, and with very specific intent.

It's that obvious intelligence that made me suspect an agenda. One cannot blame lack of effective communication for the reception of the message, when the message is delivered with both repetition and eloquence.

I am sorry he had a bad experience trying to get a straight therapist. People should be able to find the therapist with whom they feel most comfortable. If that means straight, gay, black, female, quadraplegic, HIV positive, whatever. People have the right to seek that out without judgment.

Me, I would prefer a guy therapist. Not because I don't get along with or like women. But because talking about sexually-related things involves a mindset that I truly believe is chemically different in men and women. It's far harder for me to be totally upfront and honest with a female therapist about the darkest of the dark. That's simply my opinion and my preference.

As for the term "breeder," I place it in the category with "fag"  and "kike" and "nigger."

Even when it is said fondly and with great love, I still wince. Mysogeny and homophobia and racism are uncool, always. And people sometimes forget the compelling power of the written over the spoken word. Inflection and facial expression are absent, and some words are pretty ugly under the best circumstances. These are hardly those.

Again, it is not the subjects of heterophobia and exclusion that make many of us wish this thread would drop off. It's the unfortunate way that these issues were raised by a new poster as an introduction to the forums which put many of us on the defensive.



Offline Sunny20

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Re: Pecking Order - Druggies at the bottom, Babies at the top
« Reply #66 on: July 17, 2006, 06:35:08 PM »
I strongly urge the original poster to sit back for a few minutes, and read some of the forum. Had he done so, IF he does so, he might understand the tone and the purposes of these threads... and might choose to participate as a member instead of an outsider coming in swinging. At any point, an introduction thread would have been great. Or a clarification thread. It's not like the poster is writing impaired - he puts words together very well, and with very specific intent.

It's that obvious intelligence that made me suspect an agenda. One cannot blame lack of effective communication for the reception of the message, when the message is delivered with both repetition and eloquence.


I think the original poster is just very angry.... with his status, and with the way us hetrosexuals are being treated, We deserve to be heared too....
There are more of us around now, even though the govenment is trying to hide us under the carpet, pretending we don't exist, or trying to be quick to blame us for infecting others, even though it takes 2....

I'm very angry too, that it took me over 3 years to find a hetro sexual group.

But not only that i'm also very angry, how we as HIV, or just put on the scrap heap, and put on meds, which will only kill us in the end..... Its not the disease that will kill us but the DOCTORS....

Offline Trish

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Re: Pecking Order - Druggies at the bottom, Babies at the top
« Reply #67 on: July 17, 2006, 06:40:42 PM »
I have read this thread twice and haven't been able to get it out of my mind.  So, post I must...

As a Caucasian heterosexual woman, non-IV drug user I do see Aldous' point...even if his words have been somewhat harsh, misconstrued and taken off course --  Whatever... And perhaps had he introduced himself first before posting this thread as well as read these forums for a while, he would have seen these forums in a different light and it's easy to see the misunderstandings.

Jonathan is correct, these forums are a whole different spectrum of what goes on in our local venues.  And I submit that since this is true, that we can come to an understanding and I hope Aldous continues to post giving us a chance to get to know him better and vice versa.  With that said, I welcome you Aldous.

I agree with Aldous on some of what he has written here.  I can honestly say that I too had similar feelings when I was first diagnosed.  I didn't know where to go, who to talk to or anything.  I was totally stigmatized and frightened.  Denial set in for too many years and I never did a damned thing to get whatever services I needed until I was sick and diagnosed with AIDS.

So, here I am in the year 2000 (11 years after HIV-pos diagnosis) and it was time to get medical coverage - namely Medicaid and apply for disability.  I went to the Medicaid office in NY and was greeted by an African-American woman.  I must tell you that I was the only white woman in the place.  I sat down at this woman's desk and she asked, "What's a nice white girl like you doing in a place like this?"  Her very first words to me... I'm sitting there feeling like crap and this is what I am told?  I was dumbfounded, annoyed and quite insulted.  I had fought for many years not to apply for public assistance, food stamps and Medicaid, and no one ever told me about Ryan White.  I did everything on my own, because where I come from that is what you do.  I come from a middle-class, white, blue-collar community and it was an embarrassment to ask for services.  I had no choice though and I got through it, albeit stigmatized yet again.  My first stigmatization was HIV and it still gets me sometimes.

I know of 12 men from my old neighborhood in Brooklyn, NY, all heterosexuals who died of AIDS throughout the years.  There are no ASO's in my neighborhood -- you have to go outside to get what you need.  These men would not even tell anyone they were infected, except for a few good friends.  One man actually told his family that he had cancer.  He died of AIDS last year because he chose not to tell and not get services because he did not KNOW where to get them.  It wasn't until I was in my 15th year of HIV that I get involved in the world of HIV, do support groups (only white woman again).  I had to go outside my box of comfort.  Meaning that I had to go where African-Americans and gay men went.  And all the ASO's are in neighborhoods where I stick out like a sore thumb.  Uncomfortable as it was...after time that uncomfortability waned.  No one was going to bring these services to me -- I had to go out and find them.  Simple as that.

I remember attending my first Planning Council meeting in Manhattan.  I was the only white woman again.  Everywhere I went within the HIV/AIDS community, I was the only white woman.  I attended classes at the LTI in Manhattan and I was the only white woman again.  And I have wondered to this day where the hell are all the white heterosexuals in this?... I can't help but think that because AIDS is still considered a "gay" issue and is now being turned into an African-American, Latino disease too, I am afraid we continue to miss the message that ALL PEOPLE are affected by HIV regardless of ethnicity and sexual orientation.  And services are available to all who are HIV-pos.  It's just that heterosexuals are left out of the mix because we choose not to speak up.

For years HIV/AIDS was a gay man's disease.  Then it was IV drug users and hemopheliacs.  Now we have more focus on African-Americans and Latinos because as we all know HIV is prevalent in these communities these days simply because education and awareness in the general public is in the crapper.  Next it will be heterosexuals -- Woman or man, no matter what color your skin.  I often wonder when white folks will get off their asses and speak up.  As a white, heterosexual woman I'm ashamed that I hid for so long.  I'm disappointed that I could not speak up and I allowed the stigma to keep me back.  But, from where I come from, you didn't talk about AIDS and it wasn't a heterosexual problem. 

The only reason it seems that there are no services for heterosexuals (and Caucasian in my case) is because WE CHOOSE NOT TO VOICE OURSELVES.  We continue to keep ourserlves in the closet and that is very sad, to say the least.  When we can all agree that HIV/AIDS is a concern for everyone and put that message out there for all the world to see, that's when everyone will get their piece of the pie...

It is my belief that heterosexuals need to get out there in the HIV community and be a part of the solution... keeping silent is only bringing about more problems. And it is my hope that when we do speak out we are not perceived to be anything other than individuals seeking the support and services we need that are available, but we are afraid or ashamed to ask for.  WE all need to work together as a team and fight for whatever services are available, not only for our own good, but for the good of all people who are living with HIV/AIDS... 

Just sayin'. (I love that saying Jonathan.)
« Last Edit: July 17, 2006, 06:45:36 PM by Trish »
"People grow through experience if they meet life honestly and courageously. This is how character is buit."  Eleanor Roosevelt

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: Pecking Order - Druggies at the bottom, Babies at the top
« Reply #68 on: July 17, 2006, 06:41:26 PM »
I dismiss out of hand that there is such a thing as "heterophobia". It's a nonsense word created by reactionary bigots who are uncomfortable at the thought of gays and lesbians acquiring the human rights and entitlements that they have for so long taken for granted. The notion of "heterophobia" is as ridiculous as the "mens rights movement" or the idea that white people experience racial discimination.

Any difficulties that HIV positive heterosexuals experiencing when accessing services are of their own making. I say again, you come from the privileged and dominant group in society. You have the power and the patronage to fix these problems, but it seems that the heterosexuals participants in this thread prefer to whine.

The world is designed for your convenience. You forget that the services, doctors, medications, organisations and other things that have been established for HIV positive people particularly in the developed world are a result of the efforts of the gay and lesbian communities.

It was we who formed organisations like ACT-UP, started the ASO's and HIV NGO's. We manned the barricades, enrolled in the drug trials and saw our communities decimated by the virus. We had precious little help from the heterosexual community. Rather you sat back with your hands over your ears comfortable in the knowledge that AIDS was a "gay" disease.

It burns your arses that you were wrong about that, doesn't it?

So, as is typical, now that you appear to be reaping the harvest of the discrimination and oppression you sowed so many years ago, it's the fault of the queers. HIV services in the UK or the US or Australia or where the fuck ever, seem oriented towards gay men? Well guess what lab partners, HIV in most of those places still disproportinately affects homosexual and bi-sexual men.

It's interesting that Ann believes this issue is one that's needed to be addressed for a while now. If that was they case I'd have thought she'd have raised herself long ago. She's been an AIDSMEDS member longer than almost all of us. It strikes me as passing strange that she's only taken up the cudgels now that Aldous has come in and puked on the floor.

Aldous hasn't raised any point of real merit in this thread. He's no iconoclast nor slayer of sacred cows. He's just having the standard rant of the angry straight male. Tedious and replete with non-sequiturs. Annoyed that the world is changing and that the patronised and special position he and his hetero brethren enjoy is being whittled away by gay and lesbian activists. This isn't a conversation we have to have because there's nothing to talk about.

No amount of aggressive screaming and shouting by the heterosexuals in this thread is going to fool me about this issue. Unlike some gays and lesbians angry straights don't intimidate me. Confected shrieks of "I find the term breeder to be extremely offensive" will not deter me either. I maintain my original point -- this is just homophobia dressed up in a different frock. Nothing more, nothing less.

MtD

Offline Sunny20

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Re: Pecking Order - Druggies at the bottom, Babies at the top
« Reply #69 on: July 17, 2006, 06:49:08 PM »


Edited to remove a link to a denialist website.

Just a friendly warning Sunny, posting denialist materials on this website is a bannable offence.

Ann
« Last Edit: July 17, 2006, 07:36:39 PM by Ann »

Offline jkinatl2

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Re: Pecking Order - Druggies at the bottom, Babies at the top
« Reply #70 on: July 17, 2006, 06:55:35 PM »
Sunny, the organization you referenced is an HIV denialist group. This forum is pretty strict about posting links to such stuff.



« Last Edit: July 17, 2006, 08:48:28 PM by jkinatl2 »
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Offline Ann

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Re: Pecking Order - Druggies at the bottom, Babies at the top
« Reply #71 on: July 17, 2006, 07:56:29 PM »
Quote
It's interesting that Ann believes this issue is one that's needed to be addressed for a while now. If that was they case I'd have thought she'd have raised herself long ago. She's been an AIDSMEDS member longer than almost all of us. It strikes me as passing strange that she's only taken up the cudgels now that Aldous has come in and puked on the floor.

For your information Matty, this is a subject I've raised in the past. Before you were a member. Before many of you were members.

Quote
You forget that the services, doctors, medications, organisations and other things that have been established for HIV positive people particularly in the developed world are a result of the efforts of the gay and lesbian communities.


I've never forgotten that for a minute. I've read everything I've could get my hands on about the history of this pandemic. I don't think a single poster in this thread has discounted the history.

Quote
So, as is typical, now that you appear to be reaping the harvest of the discrimination and oppression you sowed so many years ago, it's the fault of the queers. HIV services in the UK or the US or Australia or where the fuck ever, seem oriented towards gay men? Well guess what lab partners, HIV in most of those places still disproportinately affects homosexual and bi-sexual men.

I've never in my life discriminated against someone for their sexual orientation, unlike you Matty. I haven't oppressed anyone either. Don't paint me with your own bitter brush.

Nobody is pointing the finger of fault at gay men for the lack of services for straights. In fact, several of us have pointed that finger right back at ourselves.

We are to blame, but only partly. Whenever straights point out the need for  a few services tailored to our needs, we get this vitriol from SOME people who want to equate our need for services with wanting no one else to have services, only us. Nothing could be further from the truth. And is it any wonder why most won't stick their heads above the parapet?

Maybe the original poster could have gotten his point across better - but it got us all thinking and I think that was his main intent. And as for his "coming out swinging", I don't think he was swinging for this forum, I think it was more a rant against the "machine" in general.

I would have liked to discuss this more tonight, but I'm having a "viral day" this evening complete with a splitting headache - and I have to be up at 4am to catch a plane to Liverpool to see my doc.

Ann
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Offline Sunny20

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Re: Pecking Order - Druggies at the bottom, Babies at the top
« Reply #72 on: July 17, 2006, 08:20:22 PM »
Hi Anne

I appoligise for the link.... But i don't feel its denialist at all... I feel we are all getting just one side of the picture, and because of fear, we don't want to know the truth.... There is alot hidden away from us, that only the medical proffession/companies know.. and they don't want 'US' to know, i just think we all have a right to this information, we are all mature adults and can make up our own minds.....   

I'm not denying that i have HIV, I just don't like the way the doctor's are taking away my choices, like they have from the very beginning... We should have the choice of what we do to stay healthy, and of when we start to take the meds...

In the first few months after I got diagnosed, i felt positive, and in controll, i told my doctor that and said i'm going to avoid meds as long as i can, and that i will take alternertive medicine, and he said, 'Do you know what your up against, they was a lady that said the same thing a few years ago, and now she is in a wheel chair'   I felt disempowered.... But I still took the healthy road....  I took vitamins, and had healthy juices, and ate well.   That summer my results went up to 650.  (400 higher then previously)   The doctor just dismissed this saying that it must be a mistake.......... Can you imagine how i felt..... I then started drinking and smoking more and now am on 40-60 a day... Its just that i feel whats the point in looking after myself, when what ever i do doesn't make a difference in the eye of the doctor.... Even if my results have improved.... I feel so powerless..... I get very upset and depressed every time i have to go to the hospital....( I have an appointment tommorrow)   
   So i went in search of something that would help me feel empowered, so i wouldn't say i'm a denialist, I just want an equal relationship with the doctor, and i want the right to choose when i want to go on meds.... And i don't want the doctor to take away my choice........
And also doctors should be encouraging healthy living, not telling us that, theres no point, and that drugs are the only answer.

Offline DingoBoi

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Re: Pecking Order - Druggies at the bottom, Babies at the top
« Reply #73 on: July 17, 2006, 08:32:11 PM »
i never realized that services for us fags were any better.   (oooh is that inflammatory?)  

aldous, I think your message would be much better received if you just stated what you  really want.  I for one have had a bit of a hard time following the point of your posts because for any valid point you make you follow it up with two or three explanations that just piss us fags off (still being inflammatory... so sue me :P)

I live in orlando.  Currently, we do not even have a support group for hiv positive people here... at all... period.. nothing.

Not a straight support group... not a gay support group.   nothing.   That sucks.  I'm being discriminated against (more inflammation)

solution.. give everyone in the world hiv and then see if we have support groups... oh wait, that won't work either... there will still be the same fringe elements... dammit.

ok... now that i've inflamed... let's be constructive.

What do you want to see aldous?   seriously.   explain it to me like i'm stupid.   Simply, without what you want, without additional commentary.  

If you want a support service for straights say so.

"I want a support group for hiv positive straight people so we can better interrelate and understand one another'.

Is there any reason to bring up that, in some places, there are support groups for gays?  Most groups I know of would welcome anyone (though I understand some straight people may not be so comfortable because some of the issues aren't the same) There isn't one for me.   Simple, succinct and states what you really mean, without comparison.  If anybody can help you achieve those goals, we can.   Many people here can tell you how to go about starting a group or whatever (will you discriminate against a gay who wants to come to your support group?)

So, I think that is one of the things you want... my suggestion would be to go out and start one.  Seriously.  I'm not joking here.  

One just can't complain about lack of things and not do anything about it.  

You might perceive it as being easier for gays, because it's been a traditionally 'gay' plague, but as one queer, I can tell you that I don't feel so much support in my local community for gay or straight and I can tell you I am actively being discrimated against by my company who is currently violating numerous american laws under ADA and FMLA  (american's with disabilities act & family medical leave act)  These are laws that are supposed to protect me... you know.. the fag with hiv.... well... they aren't working too well just now.




Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: Pecking Order - Druggies at the bottom, Babies at the top
« Reply #74 on: July 17, 2006, 08:57:49 PM »
For your information Matty, this is a subject I've raised in the past. Before you were a member. Before many of you were members.

Well I consider myself informed then. I suspect a search of the old forums on this matter wouldn't turn anything up because older threads are deleted after a certain period of time are they not? I'll take your word for it, Ann.

I've never forgotten that for a minute. I've read everything I've could get my hands on about the history of this pandemic. I don't think a single poster in this thread has discounted the history.

Their comments, yours included Ann, seem to differ on that point. But if you say so.

I've never in my life discriminated against someone for their sexual orientation, unlike you Matty. I haven't oppressed anyone either. Don't paint me with your own bitter brush.

Hand on your heart pinky swear? You don't have to do anything active to be oppressive or discriminatory Ann, just enjoy the privileged position that you hold that others do not. Despite your protests to the contrary I find the idea that you've NEVER discriminated in even the teensiest tiniest way a bit hard to believe. But then maybe you're the exception that proves the rule. Interestingly when you speak out in strong terms, it's ok. When I do it, I'm bitter. Oh well colour me bitter then.

More to the point, can you show me where I've discrimnated against heterosexuals, Ann? I don't think I've left any evidence of my nefarious bigotry against Straighty. We members of the Lavender Mafia are pretty good at covering our tracks.

Nobody is pointing the finger of fault at gay men for the lack of services for straights. In fact, several of us have pointed that finger right back at ourselves.

We are to blame, but only partly. Whenever straights point out the need for  a few services tailored to our needs, we get this vitriol from SOME people who want to equate our need for services with wanting no one else to have services, only us. Nothing could be further from the truth. And is it any wonder why most won't stick their heads above the parapet?


Gee Ann, it sounds to me that Aldous is doing exactly that and you're backing him up. Sure you style it in terms of him "making an interesting point" and "opening an issue for debate" and so on, but it amounts to the same.

I believe that HIV services should meet the need of HIV positive people first and foremost. Nevertheless it stands to reason that services are largely going to reflect the communities that are predominantly affected. In Australia and a lot of the developed world that's homosexual men. In sub-saharan Africa I don't doubt that the focus is different. I remember posting in the old forums on the inadequacies of some HIV services providers here in Australia. Gay and Lesbian employment services I believe I characterised them as. I'm often annoyed that some providers work largely in metropolitan areas but then I have to remember that down here HIV is almost exclusively a metropolitan phenomenon.

See Ann? I can finger myself too.

Maybe the reason that heterosexuals who "point out the need for a few services tailored to their needs" do it in the aggressive and offensive way that Aldous does. Little surprise then that service providers react likewise.

Maybe the original poster could have gotten his point across better - but it got us all thinking and I think that was his main intent. And as for his "coming out swinging", I don't think he was swinging for this forum, I think it was more a rant against the "machine" in general.

I think the original poster got his point across in exactly the way he intended, and as for thinking, well I see precious little of that in this thread. Acrimony and harsh exchanges, but not much else. Which is fine by me. Sometimes abrasive dialogue is what's called for. Peace, love and harmony are for the weak.

MtD

Offline DingoBoi

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Re: Pecking Order - Druggies at the bottom, Babies at the top
« Reply #75 on: July 17, 2006, 09:14:46 PM »
can somebody pass the popcorn... this is gettin good'n!

Offline ademas

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Re: Pecking Order - Druggies at the bottom, Babies at the top
« Reply #76 on: July 17, 2006, 09:39:24 PM »
Quote
...my suggestion would be to go out and start one.  Seriously.  I'm not joking here.
 

amen, sistah!  (no offense, DingoBoi...)

If you don't like the services in place, and you feel they aren't meeting your needs, do what we did in the 80's.  Start your own.

Meanwhile, you're more than welcome to avail yourselves to anything and everything we've set in place.

Personally, my experience has been quite different.  I lived in Los Angeles when I was diagnosed, and my caseworker was a straight female, as was my therapist.

In Seattle, I've had 3 caseworkers.  Two straight men and one straight woman.

It would honestly never occur to me to ask for a gay, white male caseworker or therapist (not to say I'm not chock-full of preferences in other areas of my life...)

Interestingly enough, the only places I ever noticed a heavily gay-predominate presence is in the waiting room of my HIV/AIDS ID doctor, and in AIDS-related volunteer work (particularly Project Angel Food & AIDS Walk Steering Committee meetings.)

« Last Edit: July 17, 2006, 09:43:17 PM by ademas »

Offline AldousOrwell

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Re: Pecking Order - Druggies at the bottom, Babies at the top
« Reply #77 on: July 17, 2006, 11:31:39 PM »
We seem to be mired in semantics and name calling.

I know I got up people's noses from the get go, and I did read the advice and intro stuff, thanks for pointing it out.

So how does one go about gaining multilateral sympathy? I hate spin and all this PC watering down of views for fear of offending this person or that. I'm viewed stereotypically as being less deserving of help as I'm on the same side as 'The Man'. How offensive is that considering my reversal of fortune. I'm seen as one of your former oppressors. We must cut this out, the problem of HIV is bigger than that. I know I'm not racist or homophobic and that's good enough for me. Just because I don't like disco music and refer to 'People of Colour' as 'black' rather than the new PC term of 'Urban' does not make me a bigot.

How far has being PC really advanced things. Still more 'Urbans' in prison than ever, and HIV still being viewed as a gay disease in the developed world. There is one advance, AIDS is now HIV, but tell that to the tabloids and quality press. We seem to be the only ones using this term in common parlance. As medically correct as it is.

I wish I could go back to the top and start over but the toothpaste is out of the tube. Perhaps a different thread name would have been a good idea. Like 'Hetero access to appropriate care and support'. Like I wrote this debate just sprung from the ether as a result of telling my 'bizarre' story about the needle on the 'Am I Infected' area. I feel like I've unleashed a lot of pent up anger in others gay and straight alike. I've unwittingly created a monster.

I find it strange that no one picked up on the fact that the authorities let a train station be used as a shooting gallery. No they went off on some wild goose chase accusing me of being a Gay-bashing stooge, just because I have a reasonable turn of phrase. I laughed at this suspicion of 'intelligence' making me a potential infiltrator. I think Stalin, Pol Pot and Mao Tse Tung had the same paranoia. And I'm the one trying to get therapy! He sounds ex CIA.

My appointment is soon. I appreciate the advice from people all over the globe about the sexual orientation of my counsellor not being crucial. It's a moot point really I think I will get who I'm given and be told to get on with it, I know the guy will be professional. My liitle spat was with a lowly receptionist. I would much rather it was a job interview instead, to be frank.


Toodle loo Aldous




Offline DingoBoi

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Re: Pecking Order - Druggies at the bottom, Babies at the top
« Reply #78 on: July 17, 2006, 11:55:21 PM »
seriously, you have alot of issues.

I gave  you some good suggestions, yet you ignored them and continue lambasting people.

and, at the risk of getting banned, I think you are just acting like a dick and have motives for doing so.

You are clearly just playing games.  I pity you.

I hope your tenure in this forum is very shortlived and you move on to a straight forum that better suits your bigotry.

and as such, I would suggest nobody bother responding to this thread again which will NEVER have any value whatsoever.

Let the shit sink.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2006, 11:58:37 PM by DingoBoi »

Offline Dachshund

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Re: Pecking Order - Druggies at the bottom, Babies at the top
« Reply #79 on: July 18, 2006, 01:15:25 AM »
This breaks my heart because it exposes how people really think and feel. Racism is racism, homophobia is homophobia. If you were not HIV positive you would be the first one to say we deserved it...you still blame us ,you still think we are second class citizens. You truly believe you are better than us, and your aids is good aids.

Ann more than anyone, you make me lose faith in my fellow man/woman. How you can take this position is beyond me

I will never feel the same about this site again...Aldous poisoned this site, and you and everyone knows that. Every person of color...every gay...and I would have thought every woman understands.

My heart is broken.

p.s. After all we have been through we are reduced to this? :'(
« Last Edit: July 18, 2006, 01:58:01 AM by Dachshund »

Offline Cliff

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Re: Pecking Order - Druggies at the bottom, Babies at the top
« Reply #80 on: July 18, 2006, 02:52:38 AM »
I will never feel the same about this site again...Aldous poisoned this site, and you and everyone knows that. Every person of color...every gay...and I would have thought every woman understands.
The more this jerk speaks, the more he proves himself to be a bigot and a homophobe.  And that so-called progressive straight white folks quickly jumped to his support, (with their oh so whiny I've been discriminated too by black people at the welfare office), shows their colors too.  And their oh so patronizing, "maybe he didn't say it the right way."  The right way....maybe he said it all the wrong way INTENTIONALLY.  Maybe THAT was the point.

Whatever.  This is nothing new.  We have to deal with these lots in the real world.  I'm just glad to finally see it out in the open.

If you folks wanna hear horror stories about being discriminated let us know.  But I'm sorry, being treated like shit at a governmental office, (like every other person), and not seeing a fucking poster in your clinic with a straight white person on it, ain't much to complain about!  I'll give you some stories about being treated like SHIT by straight WHITE women, since this has turned into nothing more than a let's see who has been treated worse by black women affair.

Ditto on the never feeling the same about this site again.  People's true feelings and perceptions came out loud and clear and that was probably the only productive thing about this thread.

Cliff
AKA- "Urban" Male soon to be in prison, with the rest of my "Urban" "Peeps".

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: Pecking Order - Druggies at the bottom, Babies at the top
« Reply #81 on: July 18, 2006, 04:54:10 AM »
I have to disagree with Aunty Doxie (Hal) and Cliff on one small point. Aldous hasn't poisoned this site, at least not for me. I have to say that I'm not surprised that some people took the positions that they did. They ran true to form as far as I would have assessed them at any rate.

But what of it? That one blowhard has carried on like an arse isn't really cause to start leaping from the top of buildings nor swallowing handfuls of phenobarb. This thread will sink like the shit that it is and we'll all get on with what we normally do.

Posting results, sharing sad and joyful news, supporting one another when we have to, posting witty and interesting things in Off Topic, bickering over the various issues that divide us. All in all, we'll just continue on as the AIDSMEDS Community Forums.

And Aldous will slither back into the sewer he came from. Isolation is the bitter fruit of his labours here.

Check the run of posts in this thread. The numbers are against him. Not just because of the preponderance of gay men, but note the wise views of members like Trish. She's not having any of Aldous' shit either from what I can tell. I think it fair to say the majority of regular contributors feel likewise about this.

Fret not brothers and sisters.

MtD

Offline joemutt

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Re: Pecking Order - Druggies at the bottom, Babies at the top
« Reply #82 on: July 18, 2006, 06:18:01 AM »
United we stand.
Everybody should have equal access but no one should try to carve out his (her) place at the expense of (other) minorities, esp. since the latter were so valuable in creating the first response to the aids epidemic and against such odds.
(OK now I have to go to see my psychiatrist (who's straight, asian and has a baby boy)-not to be confused with my psychologist who's straight, white and jewish or my ID dr who's asian, straight and who dyes his gray hair black).

Offline manchesteruk

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Re: Pecking Order - Druggies at the bottom, Babies at the top
« Reply #83 on: July 18, 2006, 07:18:09 AM »
This thread started off as an interesting discussion but it's gone to pot now it's just people having digs at each other.  Aldous has made some interesting points which seem to have been largely ignored he of course hasnt done himself any favours with the de-gaying comment amongst others.  Just to clear up the 'good aids' comment incase it angered anyone i'm hoping he got it from a sketch by the satirist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satire) comedian Chris Morris.  You could probably find it on youtube but i'm not going to link to it because I would have thought some people would find it quite offensive I don't think some british comedy goes down too well in other places!
Diagnosed 11/05

"Life is too important to be taken seriously" Oscar Wilde

Offline Andy Velez

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Re: Pecking Order - Druggies at the bottom, Babies at the top
« Reply #84 on: July 18, 2006, 07:45:15 AM »
Hi All,

There's been a range of opinions expressed here. I think it's time to lock this thread. If there is anything more that anyone including Aldous feels needs to be said I suggest a new thread.

If that happens, hopefully it will be one which reflects some consideration of the various points of view expressed here and not simply a re-stating of the same positions with provocations built into them.

Cheers,
Andy Velez

 


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