Quantcast

Subscribe to:
POZ magazine
Newsletters
Join POZ: Facebook MySpace Twitter Pinterest
Tumblr Google+ Flickr Instagram
POZ Personals
Sign In / Join
Username:
Password:
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
November 28, 2014, 06:35:30 PM

Login with username, password and session length


Members
Stats
  • Total Posts: 647759
  • Total Topics: 49366
  • Online Today: 210
  • Online Ever: 585
  • (January 07, 2014, 02:31:47 PM)
Users Online

Welcome


Welcome to the POZ/AIDSmeds Community Forums, a round-the-clock discussion area for people with HIV/AIDS, their friends/family/caregivers, and others concerned about HIV/AIDS.  Click on the links below to browse our various forums; scroll down for a glance at the most recent posts; or join in the conversation yourself by registering on the left side of this page.

Privacy Warning:  Please realize that these forums are open to all, and are fully searchable via Google and other search engines. If you are HIV positive and disclose this in our forums, then it is almost the same thing as telling the whole world (or at least the World Wide Web). If this concerns you, then do not use a username or avatar that are self-identifying in any way. We do not allow the deletion of anything you post in these forums, so think before you post.

  • The information shared in these forums, by moderators and members, is designed to complement, not replace, the relationship between an individual and his/her own physician.

  • All members of these forums are, by default, not considered to be licensed medical providers. If otherwise, users must clearly define themselves as such.

  • Forums members must behave at all times with respect and honesty. Posting guidelines, including time-out and banning policies, have been established by the moderators of these forums. Click here for “Am I Infected?” posting guidelines. Click here for posting guidelines pertaining to all other POZ/AIDSmeds community forums.

  • We ask all forums members to provide references for health/medical/scientific information they provide, when it is not a personal experience being discussed. Please provide hyperlinks with full URLs or full citations of published works not available via the Internet. Additionally, all forums members must post information which are true and correct to their knowledge.

  • Product advertisement—including links; banners; editorial content; and clinical trial, study or survey participation—is strictly prohibited by forums members unless permission has been secured from POZ.

To change forums navigation language settings, click here (members only), Register now

Para cambiar sus preferencias de los foros en español, haz clic aquí (sólo miembros), Regístrate ahora

Finished Reading This? You can collapse this or any other box on this page by clicking the symbol in each box.

Author Topic: I thought I had heard everything!  (Read 6008 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline hudstar

  • Member
  • Posts: 130
  • 2010
I thought I had heard everything!
« on: January 14, 2008, 04:54:16 PM »
Further trouble in idealic paradise! I knew that Papua New Guinea was very behind when it came to issues of HIV where accustions of witchcraft still stand and murder and torture is not uncommon. An article by Agence France-Presse has revealed that people infected with HIV are being buried alive once they have gotten very sick. The reason being is that "they could no longer look after them" or  "if they let them live, stay in the same house, eat together and use or share utensils, others will contract the disease and would die'." I think it is shocking that Australia, being a superpower within the Oceanic region (and in such close proximinity to Papua New Guinea) we ignore this. We intervened with them at other times by sending Australian troops to quash political unrest - why not stop this.

You can see the full article at:

http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-5289.html



diagnosed 1988
POZ personals - hudster

Offline Matty the Damned

  • Member
  • Posts: 12,239
  • Ninja Please
Re: I thought I had heard everything!
« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2008, 05:20:01 PM »
I don't think we can just invade a sovereign nation because they're sinking AIDS victims in the hill a couple of weeks early.

As ghastly as that is of course.

MtD

Offline vokz

  • Member
  • Posts: 391
  • efavirenz junkie
Re: I thought I had heard everything!
« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2008, 05:58:58 PM »
Given that most of New Guinea  is still emerging from the stone ages, that there are still people living there who have never really had any sort of exposure to our idea of ‘civilisation’ and that cannibalism was still being practiced when I had the pleasure of spending some time there in the 1970s, I do think we should be very careful about judging New Guinea according to our own values.

I wonder how any of us would adjust to several thousand years of 'progress' in less than a generation.

Offline Matty the Damned

  • Member
  • Posts: 12,239
  • Ninja Please
Re: I thought I had heard everything!
« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2008, 06:02:21 PM »
Especially considering it's Australia (and to a lesser extent the Hun) who fucked PNG up in the first place.

MtD

Offline hudstar

  • Member
  • Posts: 130
  • 2010
Re: I thought I had heard everything!
« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2008, 07:19:22 PM »
To some lesser extent I agree with both comments however my point was that we intervene and spend money on sending troops over for political reasons yet cannot spend the time and money to stop this act of brutality. I do not see sending educators, medics or any other humanitarian aid as an invasion. I agree that economical powerbased cultures need to consider isolated cultures in that they need preserving. This is solely at an anthropological and sociological level - however this type of unimaginable horror has nothing to do with "preserving" culture - they did not have HIV or its related stigma and hysteria back in the "Edenic" days of unspoiled nature and carefree cannibalism. It has everything to do with protecting civilians that cannot protect themself. I do not buy the attitude of noble savage and I will never allow my mind and consciousness to be downgraded to a whimsical level that will accept murder, genocide or torture as a result of social value or tradition. Luckily I stopped running the plains long ago by refusing hand fed values administered by commercial television and block buster movies. I preserve my instinctive values between right and wrong privileged to me as a modern person, regardless of culture, religion and values. When will our human rights lobbyists grow balls and our Governments evolve beyond being accountants and react before this type of crap occurs. As I see it, all those organisations only ever move in to sweep up the human debris after the destruction has occured then have the gall to stand in amongst it all and cry humanity!  I travel the South Pacific more times a year than most would travel in 10 lifetimes and " "primitive cultures" do retain customs and traditional values - they do not bury their sick alive because they got whiff of some global stigma! As for New Guinea being a primitive culture, they learn modern culture fast enough - did you notice how militant the youth dress - just like they have come out of an American film shoot for "Rambo" As for adjusting "in less than a generation" we had to.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2008, 07:33:39 PM by hudstar »
diagnosed 1988
POZ personals - hudster

Offline vokz

  • Member
  • Posts: 391
  • efavirenz junkie
Re: I thought I had heard everything!
« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2008, 07:40:57 PM »
There have been a few isolated instances, yet you are talking like it is wholesale genocide. Were you this interested before this long established practice started to affect people living with HIV?

Now, if you actually bothered to search Google news to see what has happened since that report appeared on Pink News in August of last year, you would see that resources have been committed and that action (locally and internationally) is already being taken.   

So maybe you do travel a lot. Big deal, because it very clearly hasn't been to PNG.

Offline Matty the Damned

  • Member
  • Posts: 12,239
  • Ninja Please
Re: I thought I had heard everything!
« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2008, 08:45:12 PM »
Hud,

I think when Voxy said "primitive" he meant it in the proper sense, ie societies which have not been influenced by external cultural forces, not in the pejorative "darkies are backwards" sense. There are still such uninfluenced communities in PNG.

I agree with you, Australia has a considerable responsibility to PNG and the rest of the South Pacific and we shouldn't be wasting our time in Iraq. But seriously military intervention in PNG is a bit over-the-top, donchathink?

MtD

Offline vokz

  • Member
  • Posts: 391
  • efavirenz junkie
Re: I thought I had heard everything!
« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2008, 08:58:25 PM »
There are still such uninfluenced communities in PNG.

Indeed. There are two worlds. Lae, Madang and Port Moresby may seem relatively advanced, but go into the interior and you travel back thousands of years in our cultural terms. That isn’t a judgment. It is just a fact of life.

Offline fearless

  • Member
  • Posts: 2,191
Re: I thought I had heard everything!
« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2008, 09:20:26 PM »
With over 800 different languages and cultural groupings it's not as simple as dropping off a couple of pamphlets at the local ASO. On top of this you have the other problem of accessibility - many rural areas are only accessible by trekking for a few days or by airplane.
Be forgiving, be grateful, be optimistic

Offline hudstar

  • Member
  • Posts: 130
  • 2010
Re: I thought I had heard everything!
« Reply #9 on: January 14, 2008, 09:41:35 PM »
Thanks Mattie for reply. Vokz, I'm still trying to see why you reacted as such to this posting as I am not fighting against you - so could you kind of drop the academic snares and downgrading as bold lettering equates to shouting. To answer your questions, yes I was angered by some traditional practices long before my concern regarding HIV and/or live burials. I grew up exposed to many cultures so grant me some intelligence that I am mindful enough to see issues from different perspectives other than HIV. I also don't adhere to beheading because of sexuality either, another cultural practice elsewhere that makes me angry and shocked. I just chose this article because this is a HIV site and this was HIV related subject. I had known "to some degree" the extent of HIV issues within Oceania well before I joined Poz Forums. I knew of civil unrest, self determination issues, beheading of missionaries etc and other reactions/atrocities due to politics or conflicting cultural beliefs before I focused on issues regarding HIV. Grant you it took Pinknews to remind me of this subject and i think I posted elsewhere on this site about PNG before I was reading "pinknews" Do you believe that this has stopped in the four months after the article appeared?  As for google search, policies always read good on the web and yes I believe action is underway, it just took a very large scream to be heard. Google is not my only resource for information, I know people involved in the Asia Pacific Aids programme and hear about concerns. Exposing such atrocities does not undermine work being taken and exposure is a good way to get action, any organised institution tends to drag its ass otherwise. BTW I also travel to PNG, nice beaches, good tourism (when it is safe to visit) and some empty urban sites where banks were levelled. I must admit it is not my favorite place to visit as I have an element of fear. Help locally and internationally, sure - policies abound and will eventually filter down to street level. I give great credit to those locals who make a stand to be heard and to educate and it never ceases to amaze me what occurs due to HIV hysteria.  I see that Vietnam has reacted well, I remember travelling through Danang Provence years ago where I saw my first "safe sex" poster being painted well before HIV hit the global activist spot lights that focused on Nam. At that time I wondered how it had reached so far. The guys doing the signage asked me if I knew about hiv? uMMM, YEP! As for your "big deal" remark about travel. yes it is a big deal, I created that lifestyle for myself against many odds concerning HIV restrictions, pills ect..... so yes it is a big deal for me to explore and absorb my world as much as I can, maybe you should try it.
diagnosed 1988
POZ personals - hudster

Offline vokz

  • Member
  • Posts: 391
  • efavirenz junkie
Re: I thought I had heard everything!
« Reply #10 on: January 15, 2008, 03:58:20 AM »
Hud

Academic snares? Do grow up, show a little of this supposed intelligence if you want to be credited with it and spare us your militarism and septic arseholery.

As for travelling and exploring - thanks, but I have been doing it since I was five years old and have been to over 120 countries (which includes more than a year spent in PNG and the Solomon Islands .. and not for the fun of it or the pretty beaches either .. or when it is "safe").
« Last Edit: January 15, 2008, 04:31:29 AM by vokz »

Offline hudstar

  • Member
  • Posts: 130
  • 2010
Re: I thought I had heard everything!
« Reply #11 on: January 15, 2008, 04:52:39 AM »
Whoa, what is your problem? This has hit a sore point with you deeper than I can read into - a sad reality that occurs on internet forums. As for Militarism? I don't like military intervention, I think I aimed my opinions at saying for us to use as much vigour in regards to humanitarian aide as we do with military intervention. It would be great to hear about your experiences in PNG so you can shed some light my way (and others reading this post) as PNG seems to be a very sore point with you. As for septic arseholery - I don't know you from a bar of soap so it cant be personal . BTW, I'm very impressed with your travels- my uncle and great uncle were the only two people I knew that have been to over 120 countries.

So can you add information to this post about PNG and give some personal insight.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2008, 05:35:10 AM by hudstar »
diagnosed 1988
POZ personals - hudster

Offline vokz

  • Member
  • Posts: 391
  • efavirenz junkie
Re: I thought I had heard everything!
« Reply #12 on: January 15, 2008, 06:13:11 AM »
Whoa, what is your problem?

Like I said before:

Quote
Do grow up …

Offline hudstar

  • Member
  • Posts: 130
  • 2010
Re: I thought I had heard everything!
« Reply #13 on: January 15, 2008, 06:56:05 AM »
Silly and void remark so i'll try again. Im still very interested in hearing your PNG experiences - you spent time there some 30 years ago in the Navy?......that would be a good start! Im interested to hear from anybody how HIV reached such remote areas if they are cut off from "civilisation" - or at the very least can only reached by plane. Im more interested to hear how the fear/stigma of HIV reached such remote areas that caused them to do such things as "live burials" From what I understand, they care for their sick and mourn death with ceremonies. I can understand the "witchcraft" element as death and burial mounds are feared because of "female" spirits (can't remember the name for them) that haunt graves and cause havoc - a traditional superstition. I'm definately in the dark about the fear and disrespect that replaced opposing cultural beliefs in regards to death/dying/caring that drove them to such actions..........?????
« Last Edit: January 15, 2008, 07:39:17 AM by hudstar »
diagnosed 1988
POZ personals - hudster

Offline vokz

  • Member
  • Posts: 391
  • efavirenz junkie
Re: I thought I had heard everything!
« Reply #14 on: January 15, 2008, 08:01:51 AM »
HIV and AIDS got to such remote areas in exactly the same way that antibiotic-resistant syphilis (or ‘Vietnam Rose’) came to be rife in Vietnam (and to a lesser extent Hong Kong) in the 1970s .. with the guys in camouflage gear carrying firepower as an educator, the ‘missionaries’ bringing their perversion of godliness and prospectors seeing nothing but lands to be raped for their rich natural resources.

Buy a girl for a few bars of soap, an occasional bar of chocolate and the false promise of a new life in a country where the streets are paved in gold, then pump her full of antibiotics so she doesn’t get the clap and you have an on-demand turbo 1974 Fuckomat .. except she does get the clap and it is resistant and you have buggered off back home to your cosy little life and modern medicine.

Same story in PNG .. only now it is soldiers and miners - interested only in the mineral wealth to be exploited whilst at work and the girls and pretty beaches to enjoy whilst at play. They share their social diseases (but none of the survivor genes).  Before you know it you have 90% of Oceania’s HIV/AIDS problem in the coastal area of an island that isn’t even as big as your average state in Australia.

These burials aren’t going on in the towns. They are going on in the mountain areas where the only western influence is the fake Nike t-shirt, a doctor who might swing by a few times in a decade (if they are lucky) and the odd missionary (if they are unlucky). They don’t even know what HIV and AIDS are and there aren’t any medicines. They just know that something is dropping people like flies. They are scared witless, so they do what they have always done for the protection of larger group.

To us it is abhorrent and we sit here and impose our values and call it “stigma”.

To them it is survival and the only alternative they see is that they all die.

Like I said before - you might have seen Lae, Madang or Port Moresby .. but that isn’t New Guinea. New Guinea is 50,000BC in western terms .. on a set with jungle so dense that it is never really all that much of surprise when yet another new tribe/people/culture/language is discovered.



Offline vokz

  • Member
  • Posts: 391
  • efavirenz junkie
Re: I thought I had heard everything!
« Reply #15 on: January 15, 2008, 08:11:36 AM »
PS: Am I sensitive about how people judge other cultures by western ‘values’ and ‘morality’?

I may have been blessed with blond hair and Aryan looks; but given that my grandfather was Cree and I am part tangata whenua (Maori), I think I may just forgive myself that sensitivity and caution others that looks can be VERY deceptive.

Offline hudstar

  • Member
  • Posts: 130
  • 2010
Re: I thought I had heard everything!
« Reply #16 on: January 15, 2008, 09:01:11 AM »
PS: Am I sensitive about how people judge other cultures by western ‘values’ and ‘morality’?  Sure, I posted an article, we threw a few punches, I guessed a deeper issue. All is fine

So you are saying that stigma is not viewed the same nor percieved as such in remote cultures. I work on MV's myself where many islanders are employed to do seasonal jobs and a lot of my info comes from them (you hear lots of stories in crew/officers mess).... I also get time off work and sometimes eat with the families of some of these guys. I've also cut through thick jungles (in Vietnam) albiet no hidden tribes and I was with my Uni professor, an interpreter and a local guide. I do go further than resorts. The rest of my info comes from reports or what I hear personally from health workers so stigma to me always seemed to have a constant core. Other stories relating to cultural beliefs (not HIV related) came from family members who were engineers located in various developing countries since I was a kid. With HIV I just perceived stigma as stigma that was introduced by the west. Can't really fault that - I've been pretty damned myself by stigma and it pissed me off as I saw this " live burial" as a result of that. So I'm not really that far off from saying we create the problem then stand in the middle of it crying shock horror. I'll reassess my views on stigma.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2008, 09:54:32 AM by hudstar »
diagnosed 1988
POZ personals - hudster

Offline vokz

  • Member
  • Posts: 391
  • efavirenz junkie
Re: I thought I had heard everything!
« Reply #17 on: January 15, 2008, 10:33:49 AM »
It is exactly the same basic instinct for survival that stigma has developed from and it is their equivalent of the leper colony (and it isn’t so very long ago that we had them).

From our perspective it is brutal, but it is the law of the jungle.

The difference is that we have the understanding, knowledge and the resources to deal with it differently .. when we choose to.

On that note I shall close and be off to do some packing in preparation for my month of adventures (and drinking piss for an excuse for beer) amongst the primitive people of the former penal colonies  :o


Offline hudstar

  • Member
  • Posts: 130
  • 2010
Re: I thought I had heard everything!
« Reply #18 on: January 15, 2008, 09:25:33 PM »
Cool Vokz, thanks. Im doing packing soon also - off on 9th next month. I'll definately keep all you said in mind.
diagnosed 1988
POZ personals - hudster

 


Terms of Membership for these forums
 

© 2014 Smart + Strong. All Rights Reserved.   terms of use and your privacy
Smart + Strong® is a registered trademark of CDM Publishing, LLC.