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Author Topic: No clinically meaningful associations between use of poppers and CD4s...  (Read 4483 times)

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Offline Miss Philicia

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Can we put this subject to rest now?

Recreational drug use and T lymphocyte subpopulations in HIV-uninfected and HIV-infected men.
source

Recreational drug use and T lymphocyte subpopulations in HIV-uninfected and HIV-infected men.

Chao C, Jacobson LP, Tashkin D, MartŪnez-Maza O, Roth MD, Margolick JB, Chmiel JS, Rinaldo C, Zhang ZF, Detels R.

Department of Epidemiology and Jonsson Comprehensive Cancer Center, University of California at Los Angeles, Los Angeles, CA 90095-1772, USA.

The effects of recreational drugs on CD4 and CD8 T cells in humans are not well understood. We conducted a longitudinal analysis of men who have sex with men (MSM) enrolled in the Multicenter AIDS Cohort Study (MACS) to define associations between self-reported use of marijuana, cocaine, poppers and amphetamines, and CD4 and CD8 T cell parameters in both HIV-uninfected and HIV-infected MSM. For the HIV-infected MSM, we used clinical and laboratory data collected semiannually before 1996 to avoid potential effects of antiretroviral treatment. A regression model that allowed random intercepts and slopes as well as autoregressive covariance structure for within subject errors was used. Potential confounders adjusted for included length of follow-up, demographics, tobacco smoking, alcohol use, risky sexual behaviors, history of sexually transmitted infections, and antiviral therapy. We found no clinically meaningful associations between use of marijuana, cocaine, poppers, or amphetamines and CD4 and CD8 T cell counts, percentages, or rates of change in either HIV-uninfected or -infected men. The regression coefficients were of minimum magnitude despite some reaching statistical significance. No threshold effect was detected for frequent (at least weekly) or continuous substance use in the previous year. These results indicate that use of these substances does not adversely affect the numbers and percentages of circulating CD4 or CD8 T cells in either HIV-uninfected or -infected MSM.
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline thunter34

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  • His name is Carl.
Re: No clinically meaningful associations between use of poppers and CD4s...
« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2008, 01:06:47 PM »
Hot Diggity!  Ya ain't gotta tell me twice!  Let's party!  Clothes off at the door, please!

 8)
AIDS isn't for sissies.

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: No clinically meaningful associations between use of poppers and CD4s...
« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2008, 01:13:30 PM »
Should I invite those nice boys from Fort Troff over, dear?  I know how you like them so.

Have you seen their new "Funnel Gag"?
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline thunter34

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Re: No clinically meaningful associations between use of poppers and CD4s...
« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2008, 01:18:26 PM »
Should I invite those nice boys from Fort Troff over, dear?  I know how you like them so.

Have you seen their new "Funnel Gag"?

Yes, I've seen it.  And sure...call 'em.  Been awhile since I've hung with those boys. 
AIDS isn't for sissies.

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: No clinically meaningful associations between use of poppers and CD4s...
« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2008, 02:00:46 PM »
omg girl -- did you see the red latex vacuum cube???  Imagine the really fierce parties we could throw with that contraption!

I so want one.  Pricey though at $1250 -- we'll need to recruit a perverted Sugar Daddy.  I don't think Medicare will cough up for that.
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline bimazek

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Re: No clinically meaningful associations between use of poppers and CD4s...
« Reply #5 on: January 11, 2008, 11:06:17 PM »
self-reported use of marijuana, cocaine, poppers and amphetamines
if we could trust self-reported use of marijuana, cocaine, poppers and amphetamines
then there would not be random drug tests in work places
also
the horrible before and after pictures of meth users, is that caused by cheerios or captain crunch?
there is a flaw in this study
it must be the
self-reported use of marijuana, cocaine, poppers and amphetamines
how many addicts report anything accurately
i have heard many of them say crazy things about hiv and they were sober at the time at the hiv clinic
philly i appreciate the post and i wish or hope it is true and anyone is free to do whatever they want
but the devastating effects of
 cocaine, poppers and amphetamines on many men at least on west coast is undeniable
if you ask fat people and got the self reported eating of cakes cookies and sugar there may not be a collelation
lets say that 100% of addicts lie
or
meth users lie
or
meth users lie about the amount of meth they use
what about all the gay meth users in So Cal that killed themselves or are in mental institutions
did the dr's go interview them?
honestly when i read this i was amazed and felt perhaps it is true
but i know personally if i miss one good nights sleep since poz i am wiped out
i will say this
some people have super strong systems and it doesn't seem to matter how hard they party and use drugs
and these guys may have reported good results
but for me personally i choose to say away from those drugs
finally
there are 43,000 people a year in USA catching HIV and 19,000 dying every year of aids in 2006
most of those dying have had the disease a long time
does this mean that this study suggests that even if one takes good care of oneself
still the t cells fall and even on haart the t cells fall eventually
i am legitimately asking this question
can this study be true?


« Last Edit: January 11, 2008, 11:11:48 PM by bimazek »

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: No clinically meaningful associations between use of poppers and CD4s...
« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2008, 02:56:36 AM »
No doubt about it Bim, you truly are the master of the non-sequitur.

i am legitimately asking this question
can this study be true?


I suspect if the Philodendron had posted a link to a study which claimed poppers do cause KS, you wouldn't be asking that question.

Now would you kitten?

MtD

Offline Smoothstone

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Re: No clinically meaningful associations between use of poppers and CD4s...
« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2008, 04:26:55 AM »
There are other parts of the immune system that were not assessed. In 1987,  Dax assessed the impact of poppers use on the human immune system. She found that natural killer cell function was the factor most affected. That effect was temporary, but it took 4 days for the natural killer cell function to return to baseline. In addition, the amount of sniffs was low/moderate. Its unknown if more sniffs would result in great suppression of natural killer cell function or that it might last longer. Additional research may answer this question.

Natural killer cells have a role in initial defense against infections. If someone is already HIV positive, getting infected may not be an issue. However, it may be for their HIV negative, or HIV status unknown partners.

And if everyone used protection during anal sex , then the risk of infection disappears.
However, significant numbers of guys are having unprotected anal sex. Thus, the import of raising the issue of poppers use temporarily suppressing immune system defense and increasing susceptibility to infection....if exposed.   

Recent epidemiology research finds that poppers use increases the likelihood of HIV infection during unprotected anal sex. There are multiple reasons that explain the risk with immune suppression being one. All the factors could be operating in which case poppers use poses a compound risk for HIV infection.

Participants in the 2007 Terrence Higgins Trust focus group on poppers expressed a desire to know if poppers affected the immune system. Another human study assessing the effect of poppers use on the immune system might add clarity to the issue. To date there is just the two Dax human studies. Subsequent studies have been mice, rat, or cell cultures. 

Hank

Offline vokz

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Re: No clinically meaningful associations between use of poppers and CD4s...
« Reply #8 on: January 12, 2008, 05:14:00 AM »
Recent epidemiology research finds that poppers use increases the likelihood of HIV infection during unprotected anal sex. There are multiple reasons that explain the risk with immune suppression being one. All the factors could be operating in which case poppers use poses a compound risk for HIV infection.

Not so (although that is how you would love us to read that research).

That research (Macdonald N et al. Factors associated with HIV seroconversion in gay men in England at the start of the 21st century) said that the theory that poppers could increase biological susceptibility to infection was plausible, but highly improbable.

.. which is your cue to start pimping a certain website that is full of bizarre and largely discredited, outlandish and unsupported claims .. and our cue to tell you that those bizarre and largely   now even more discredited, outlandish and unsupported claims amount to nothing more than a pile of crap.

There is virtually no robust evidence that poppers cause any sort of immune suppression .. and, in November 2007, according to the Terrence Higgins Trust (who you seem to love quoting):

Quote
There is research suggesting poppers have no lasting significant effect on the human immune system, and certainly no conclusive research shows any significant impact on human immunity.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2008, 07:55:51 AM by vokz »

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: No clinically meaningful associations between use of poppers and CD4s...
« Reply #9 on: January 12, 2008, 10:10:32 AM »
Case closed, ladies.  Sniff away and don't let the guiltmeisters get at you.
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline vokz

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Re: No clinically meaningful associations between use of poppers and CD4s...
« Reply #10 on: January 12, 2008, 12:24:42 PM »
Participants in the 2007 Terrence Higgins Trust focus group on poppers expressed a desire to know if poppers affected the immune system.

The exact statement was:

Quote
Men wanted certainty or precision, often where this is difficult or impossible, eg, around the scale of increase in risk or how much and for how long poppers might cause immune suppression

... which isn't quite the same.

The same focus group also felt:

Quote
Some suspected health promoters are using Ďscare storiesí about poppers to further an agenda

Quote
Men might give up poppers believing this would make unprotected sex of negligible risk

Quote
Men are suspicious of uncertainty couched in terms of Ďmightí or Ďcouldí, and felt if health promoters do not know or are dealing in a theory they should stick to concrete facts and/or clearly state they are not sure

The same Terrence Higgins Trust report in which those focus grooup findings were publicised also cited A Critical Review of Hank Wilson's Bibliography of Anti-Popper Research by Lisa Ringold PhD pharmacology, when it said:

Quote
Poppers and immune suppression

There is an absence of robust evidence for poppers weakening the immune system. The great majority of studies involve animal, not human subjects, and much of this research is open to criticism for poor methodology. In studies suggesting a negative impact on immunity, there appears to be a modest suppression of CD4 cells (in mice) or natural killer cells (in humans) for 4-7 days following poppers use. However, many factors affect immune function or CD4 count, including diet, exercise, smoking and time of day.

Many of the research studies investigating the impact of poppers on immunity come with caveats or methodological flaws such as:

ē studies may be conducted on blood cell cultures in the test tube, not in live subjects
ē studies frequently involve rodents (some genetically altered to have no immune defences), not humans
ē adjustments are often not made for the difference in body mass between rodents and humans
ē quantity and duration of exposure to poppers can be much greater than typical in recreational use
ē poppers may be injected into the bloodstream, not inhaled
ē study samples are usually small
ē study results may include preliminary, unconfirmed data or findings not obtained in repeated trials
ē data is not published in respected peer-reviewed medical journals.

There is research suggesting poppers have no lasting significant effect on the human immune system,and certainly no conclusive research shows any significant impact on human immunity. In fact, inhaled nitrites break down easily and quickly leave the body.

.. the same Lisa Ringold who I seem to remember a certain Hank Wilson dismissing as an irrelevance in these very forums .. although not, it seems, as irrelevant as Hank Wilson himself, because he only got a mention by through the title of her critical review ;)

The report also labours the point that false links between poppers causing AIDS and KS are good examples of how people and poor science have in the past concluded causal links between one thing and another when there was in fact none.

The report also rubbishes the claim (put about by a Hank Wilson and others) that the use of poppers causes risky sexual behavior:

Quote
The disinhibiting effect of poppers is unlikely to be the explanation for greater HIV transmission seen in poppers users in these studies. Many other drugs with similar or stronger disinhibiting effects often do not emerge as significant risk factors in these studies. Several studies have found no association between poppers use and non-condom use.

.. and:

Quote
Simply because two behaviours occur together (eg, using poppers and becoming HIV positive) does not mean one causes the other. Poppers use may just be a marker of another behaviour or factor that is more relevant to the infection such as (unprotected) anal sex, rough sex, use of other drugs, STI acquisition or a generally less healthy lifestyle.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2008, 12:28:55 PM by vokz »

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: No clinically meaningful associations between use of poppers and CD4s...
« Reply #11 on: January 12, 2008, 01:44:46 PM »
o noes... don't bring up Miss Ringold.  Hank doesn't like her at all.
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline vokz

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Re: No clinically meaningful associations between use of poppers and CD4s...
« Reply #12 on: January 12, 2008, 02:28:55 PM »
o noes... don't bring up Miss Ringold.  Hank doesn't like her at all.

I know ;)

Offline Smoothstone

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Re: No clinically meaningful associations between use of poppers and CD4s...
« Reply #13 on: January 12, 2008, 04:36:16 PM »
The Terence Higgins Trust report on poppers is unfortunately unbalanced and parrots Lisa Ringold's criticisms of the research. Some of Ringold's allegations are untrue, while others overstate the limitations cited. I agree with some of the criticisms but its not like Hank Wilson controls the funding or protocol decisions of research.  Ringold makes no critique of popper industry claims or practices.  THT also fails to disclose that Ringold's critique is from a poppers industry website. 
 
I respond to Lisa Ringold's criticisms at  www.poppers.cfsites.org .( Go to LINKS  and then to the bottom where I respond to Ringold point by point). some  of the criticisms are directed at the research itself and some is directed at my efforts to date. My response to Ringold is a work in progress which I intend to modify.

There is also a link to Seattles 2006 online survey of gay men about poppers. Like the THT focus group feedback, Seattle respondents also want to know more about poppers.  No message can be a message. Given a lack of certainty, what should the message be?  There should be some reference to the published research  and perspective(s) about it. I see no problem in acknowledging the limitations of research.
 THT missed an opportunity to present a more balanced perspective about what we know and what we want to know.  That said, it is progress that the issue of poppers affecting the immune system is getting attention.

Hank

Offline Strayboy74

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Re: No clinically meaningful associations between use of poppers and CD4s...
« Reply #14 on: January 12, 2008, 04:53:55 PM »

But I thought it was already established that poppers cause KS...   

And what does Molly Ringwald say??

LOL

*laughs maniacly*

-joseph
« Last Edit: January 12, 2008, 04:57:29 PM by Strayboy74 »

Offline vokz

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Re: No clinically meaningful associations between use of poppers and CD4s...
« Reply #15 on: January 12, 2008, 05:42:22 PM »
Sure, Hank .. so, earlier you were happy to misrepresent the THT report (just as you are happy to misrepresent pseudo-science and bad science as good peer reviewed science) when you thought you could get away with it, but now it is unbalanced and parrots Lisa Ringold's criticisms of the fake Ďresearchí you rely on ;)

Let's face it, you would only think it was "balanced" if it came down in favour of your wacko extremism.

PS: THT discloses exactly where Lisa Ringoldís criticisms are from - it even provides the url - so yet again you choose to misrepresent FACTS.

Edited for typo
« Last Edit: January 12, 2008, 06:55:53 PM by vokz »

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: No clinically meaningful associations between use of poppers and CD4s...
« Reply #16 on: January 12, 2008, 07:29:44 PM »
The big question for me is what motivates Hank to continually misrepresent these facts.  What's he getting out of it? And mind you, this is not a new hobby for him -- it's evidently been going on for 25 years.
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: No clinically meaningful associations between use of poppers and CD4s...
« Reply #17 on: January 12, 2008, 07:45:48 PM »
Same thing that makes James Dobson obsess about men have teh butt-secks I would think.

MtD

Offline vokz

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Re: No clinically meaningful associations between use of poppers and CD4s...
« Reply #18 on: January 13, 2008, 03:39:05 AM »
The big question for me is what motivates Hank to continually misrepresent these facts.  What's he getting out of it? And mind you, this is not a new hobby for him -- it's evidently been going on for 25 years.

Other people enjoying something that he doesnít enjoy?

It may be the poppers .. it may be something that people tend to do when they use poppers.

It could just be that he still needs to cling on to the belief that poppers are to blame for him being HIV-positive.

The sad fact is that what grains of truth there are in his twisted propaganda  - and I do actually think there are a few - get lost, because so much of what he has said is demonstrably untrue and unbelieveable.

It is like being asked to buy a car from someone who has already sold you two lemons. No-one in their right mind is going to do it.

Offline Smoothstone

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Re: No clinically meaningful associations between use of poppers and CD4s...
« Reply #19 on: January 14, 2008, 03:35:15 AM »
From the published research: "Although the circulating numbers of CD4 and CD8 T cells do not appear to be significantly affected by use of these substances, these findings do not preclude the possibility that substance use may adversely affect the functional properties of T cells."

In the Dax human studies (published 1988, 1991)  assessing the impact of poppers use on the human immune system, it was not the numbers of natural killer cells, but natural killer cell function that was most affected.

Hank 

[/b][/b]
« Last Edit: January 14, 2008, 03:43:35 AM by Smoothstone »

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: No clinically meaningful associations between use of poppers and CD4s...
« Reply #20 on: January 14, 2008, 03:58:27 AM »
Although the circulating numbers of CD4 and CD8 T cells do not appear to be significantly affected by use of these substances, these findings do not preclude the possibility that substance use may adversely affect the functional properties of T cells.

Those findings don't preclude the possibility that dinosaur piloted meteors may affect adversely the functional properites of T cells either Hank.

MtD

Offline vokz

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Re: No clinically meaningful associations between use of poppers and CD4s...
« Reply #21 on: January 14, 2008, 04:41:30 AM »
Hank

So, by your own admission, poppers donít appear to significantly affect the number of circulating CD4 and CD8 cells; but, as almost anyone who goes for regular bloods will tell you: diet, exercise, smoking / giving up smoking, time of day, how much sleep you had (or didnít have), having a weekend binge and a whole host of other common daily factors most certainly do .. yet you are still obsessed with the seemingly insignificant effect of poppers?

Are you sure this doesnít have more to do with the fact that you just donít have the big brass balls to admit that you have been so consistently and hideously WRONG about almost everything you have said about poppers since you started the absurd witch hunt, back in 1981? .. when you were just as certain that poppers caused AIDS.

There is no wonder the denialists love you so much.

 


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