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Author Topic: A tragic loss  (Read 6849 times)

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Offline aztecan

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A tragic loss
« on: December 27, 2007, 08:54:38 PM »
The death of Benazir Bhutto today is a tragedy for Pakistan and, I fear, for the world.

May she rest in peace.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7161590.stm
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~ William Ellery Channing (Unitarian Minister)

Offline minismom

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Re: A tragic loss
« Reply #1 on: December 27, 2007, 09:02:16 PM »
I was wondering when someone was going to start a thread about her assassination.  Thank you for doing it.  The situation in Pakastan is really bad right now w/ the riots and protesting.  She was a true voice against terrorism and now she is gone with elections only a couple of weeks away.
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Offline AlanBama

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Re: A tragic loss
« Reply #2 on: December 27, 2007, 09:18:32 PM »
a terrible tragedy....

may she rest in peace.   :'(
"Remember my sentimental friend that a heart is not judged by how much you love, but by how much you are loved by others." - The Wizard of Oz

Offline BT65

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Re: A tragic loss
« Reply #3 on: December 28, 2007, 07:45:31 AM »
Thanks for starting this, Mark.  R.I.P. Benazir Bhutto. :'(
I've never killed anyone, but I frequently get satisfaction reading the obituary notices.-Clarence Darrow

Offline mjmel

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Re: A tragic loss
« Reply #4 on: December 28, 2007, 09:08:34 AM »
The hopes of the poor and downtrodden have been dashed and perhaps even vanished with Bhuttos assassination.
A truly tragic loss. May she rest in peace.
Strange to say it but I believed she knew this was going to happen to her. She exposed herself in defiance of threats...in defiance of fear. I wish she wouldn't have been so bold at this point--just a month before elections were scheduled. She could have made a difference within her country and the world-at-large.

Mike M

(misspellings corrected)
« Last Edit: December 28, 2007, 09:18:22 AM by mjmel »

Offline emeraldize

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Re: A tragic loss
« Reply #5 on: December 28, 2007, 09:12:33 AM »
Deeply saddening loss for Pakistan, for women and for the world.

Offline Andy Velez

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Re: A tragic loss
« Reply #6 on: December 28, 2007, 09:28:25 AM »
Historically politics are bitter and brutal in Pakistan and India. Bhutto's father, who had been prime minister, was imprisoned and then hanged by a government which declared him a traitor. There was supposedly an issue about "corruption," but it was clearly about politics. Nehru's daughter, Indira Gandhi, prime minister of India for years, was assassinated. Years later, her son who eventually succeeded her, was also assasinated. When does it end, if ever?

The world has grown smaller in the recent decades and now what happens "over there" is inextricably intertwined with all of our lives and problems too. Which makes it all the more problematic, maddening and even tragic when we have such inept figures representing us to the world and dealing with the challenges of these situations.

 
« Last Edit: December 28, 2007, 09:35:09 AM by Andy Velez »
Andy Velez

Offline jack

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Re: A tragic loss
« Reply #7 on: December 28, 2007, 09:47:19 AM »
we chose Musharraf as an ally because we had no choice,much the way we had no choice when he took Saddam as an ally. My enemies enemy is my ally.  This was most likely done by Al Quaeda or the sawed off nutjob in Iran in an attempt to destabilize Musharraf's government and damage his standing with US.

He had no reason to kill her, he can cook the books and win any election.
 
Its time to get in bed big time with India,no matter how pissed the Paks and Arabs get.

Online Dachshund

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Re: A tragic loss
« Reply #8 on: December 28, 2007, 10:00:44 AM »
I think she had a pretty good idea. What's that old proverb? You lay down with dictators, you're going to get dicked.

http://www.crooksandliars.com/2007/12/27/bhutto-holds-musharraf-responsible-for-her-death-in-an-october-email/


Offline mjmel

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Re: A tragic loss
« Reply #9 on: December 28, 2007, 10:01:51 AM »
we chose Musharraf as an ally because we had no choice,much the way we had no choice when he took Saddam as an ally. My enemies enemy is my ally.  This was most likely done by Al Quaeda or the sawed off nutjob in Iran in an attempt to destabilize Musharraf's government and damage his standing with US.

He had no reason to kill her, he can cook the books and win any election.
 
Its time to get in bed big time with India,no matter how pissed the Paks and Arabs get.

We funneled BILLIONS to Musharraf. You say he had nothing to lose or worry about?

Mike M

Offline jack

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Re: A tragic loss
« Reply #10 on: December 28, 2007, 10:16:07 AM »
I see nowhere where I said he had nothing to worry about from her. He is a dictator and controls part of the military so he controls elections. I did say Musharraf can steal elections so he had no reason to kill here. On the other hand he realizes he is our only option in the area. Without the US in this region,mid east oil will either be controlled by Russians or terrorists.
Anti US interests will be blaming this on Musharraf.

Online Miss Philicia

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Re: A tragic loss
« Reply #11 on: December 28, 2007, 10:24:03 AM »
Pakistan has oil?
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline jack

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Re: A tragic loss
« Reply #12 on: December 28, 2007, 11:20:27 AM »
philly, look at a map. Pakistan sits between Iran and India. Bush has been using Indias nuclear threat to keep Musharraf in line.   I dont think I said Pak had oil, I said mid east oil. Are you all having reading problems today?
Its all about the oil. There is no other reason to be in this god forsaken part of the world. Oil is the basis for our economy and our way of like,so until someone develops some new type of energy source or new chemical feedstock or all the mideast countries become democracies we have to be committed to the region. And I am not talking about boondoggles like bio fuels or ethanol.

Offline Cliff

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Re: A tragic loss
« Reply #13 on: December 28, 2007, 11:29:08 AM »
Sad loss.  Hopefully democracy will return soon, so that her loss isn't in vain.  But I do wonder where they got all their money from.  They had mansions all over the world, including a big one in Surrey, near Guildford. 

Online Miss Philicia

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Re: A tragic loss
« Reply #14 on: December 28, 2007, 11:31:20 AM »
I dont think I said Pak had oil, I said mid east oil.

Pakistan is in South Asia, not the Middle East.  What was that you just said about looking at a map?
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Online Miss Philicia

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Re: A tragic loss
« Reply #15 on: December 28, 2007, 11:39:15 AM »
Mike Huckabee says we need to secure our borders because of suspicious Pakistanis after Bhutto's death.
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Offline jack

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Re: A tragic loss
« Reply #16 on: December 28, 2007, 11:49:13 AM »
Like I said,look at a map. Pak and Afgan border Iran. Iran is supporting the terrorists within Pak and Afgan borders.

As most people know there are many Al Quaeda supporters and Moslem fundamentalists in Pak government and military. There are many days we are not sure if Musharraf is really supporting them or us,thus Bush and Cheney have engaged India to try and keep Musharraf in our camp. Most of Al Quaeda that escaped Afghanistan reside in northern Pakistan or have snuck into Iran. If you are terrorist with designs on a US attack there is a good chance you would have to come through Pak to get here. Its probably the only thing I agree with the Huckster on,we should be putting extra scrutiny on travelers from Pak than we have.

Speaking of Huckaby he appears to be more of a Democrat of the 50s and 60s. He believes in high taxes,wealth redistribution,God, and US defense.

Offline leatherman

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Re: A tragic loss
« Reply #17 on: December 28, 2007, 11:51:12 AM »
Pakistan is in South Asia, not the Middle East.  What was that you just said about looking at a map?

Pakistan is usually considered a Middle Eastern country not an Asian nation
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Online Dachshund

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Re: A tragic loss
« Reply #18 on: December 28, 2007, 12:11:49 PM »
Pakistan is usually considered a Middle Eastern country not an Asian nation

We might incorrectly consider Pakistan a middle eastern nation, but that wouldn't make it true. Like Indonesia the common denominator between Pakistan and truly middle eastern countries is religion. Pakistanis are neither Arabs or Persian.

The Islamic Republic of Pakistan (Urdu: اسلامی جمہوریۂ پاکستان), or Pakistan (help∑info), is a country in South Asia, marking the region where South Asia converges with Central Asia and the Middle East.[6][7] It has a 1,046 kilometer (650 mile) coastline along the Arabian Sea in the south, and is bordered by Afghanistan and Iran in the west, India in the east and China in the far northeast.[8]
« Last Edit: December 28, 2007, 12:14:20 PM by Dachshund »

Offline jack

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Re: A tragic loss
« Reply #19 on: December 28, 2007, 12:27:57 PM »
Again,please get a fucking map or maybe a globe. I never said Pak was a middle eastern country. I have no idea if it is middle eastern,Indonesia,Russian,or India and it doesnt matter and I don't care.  Location is all that matters. Are you some of people Leno finds on the street? I did say Pak borders Iran and was our only choice after 911 as an ally against the terrorists inside and outside of Pak. No one said Pak was Arab or Persian. It borders Iran. That is a fact. You can not dispute that. This isn't rocket science. It is Location,Location,Location.
Pak borders Iran. Fuck me.

Online Dachshund

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Re: A tragic loss
« Reply #20 on: December 28, 2007, 12:41:44 PM »
I have no idea if it is middle eastern,Indonesia,Russian,or India and it doesnt matter and I don't care.

Case closed. More convoluted logic from our resident expert on Southeast Asian affairs. Maybe you should pull that map out of somewhere dude. If you bothered to read you could clearly see that I was responding to Leatherman. At least you got your boy in the White House beat. When he ran for Prezident when asked, he couldn't even name the President of Pakistan much less find it on a map. Like you he didn't care and we see where that got us.
Fuck you? In your dreams! ;)

Offline thunter34

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Re: A tragic loss
« Reply #21 on: December 28, 2007, 12:48:29 PM »
I was wondering when this thread was gonna really take off.  Where to begin?  Oh, heck...why not here?

philly, look at a map. Pakistan sits between Iran and India. Bush has been using Indias nuclear threat to keep Musharraf in line.   I dont think I said Pak had oil, I said mid east oil. Are you all having reading problems today?
Its all about the oil. There is no other reason to be in this god forsaken part of the world. Oil is the basis for our economy and our way of like,so until someone develops some new type of energy source or new chemical feedstock or all the mideast countries become democracies we have to be committed to the region. And I am not talking about boondoggles like bio fuels or ethanol.

What really stews my potatos about stuff like this is that we already DO possess viable alternative fuels that we just aren't willing to open ourselves up to using.  (Get ready, Jack, cuz here it comes...)  Yes, I am talking about appropriate use of things like solar, wind & water power.  But everybody gripes and moans about "the cost!  oh, the cost of it all!"  getting it set up and running.  Yes, there is a large initial cost in getting things sufficiently up and running, but what do you hold that up against?  We're not talking about just the payments at the pump...we're talking about a cost in coffins as well, aren't we?  But the leading contender for a "clean" energy source for this administration is what?  It's plutonium, isn't it?  If we're gonna consider ANWAR and radioactive waste, is it that far off the mark to consider biting some bullets rather than firing them all the time in an effort to come up with a long-term solution that can help take out bloodshed and many environmental concerns at the same time?  

Next -

Mike Huckabee says we need to secure our borders because of suspicious Pakistanis after Bhutto's death.

Quothe Huckabee:  Huckabee called Bhutto's death is a tragedy, but he suggested she had been a threat to Islamic fundamentalists. "An educated, sophisticated, strong, capable woman leader -- that does pose a threat to those who don't believe that women should be given that platform and that level of equality," Huckabee said.

That's rich.  The Bible says the same thing, ya know.  Read Corinthians.  

« Last Edit: December 28, 2007, 12:52:00 PM by thunter34 »
AIDS isn't for sissies.

Offline jack

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Re: A tragic loss
« Reply #22 on: December 28, 2007, 12:58:25 PM »
I love wind,solar,and water power. I was talking about the government boondoggles on ethanol and bio fuels. Total rip offs.
Some of these solar companies are actually making a profit.
I just dont wanna see the government involved.

Offline jack

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Re: A tragic loss
« Reply #23 on: December 28, 2007, 01:07:11 PM »
dachs,it doesnt matter who you are responding to you are arguing just to argue and thats cool. what i meant was it doesnt matter how you classify Pak or what you call it,its position on the globe remains the same. It borders Iran which many consider a middle east country but who cares how its classified,its Iran,thats all that matters.
I am looking at my world globe as I type and Pakistan still appears to border Iran. I am in no way an expert on anything but I do read many books because I know how to read.

Online Miss Philicia

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Re: A tragic loss
« Reply #24 on: December 28, 2007, 01:09:08 PM »
Pakistan is usually considered a Middle Eastern country not an Asian nation

no
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Online Miss Philicia

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Re: A tragic loss
« Reply #25 on: December 28, 2007, 01:11:08 PM »
Next -

Quothe Huckabee:  Huckabee called Bhutto's death is a tragedy, but he suggested she had been a threat to Islamic fundamentalists. "An educated, sophisticated, strong, capable woman leader -- that does pose a threat to those who don't believe that women should be given that platform and that level of equality," Huckabee said.

That's rich.  The Bible says the same thing, ya know.  Read Corinthians.  



Also, as a Baptist wacko, Hucksterbee thinks women should submit to men.
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline thunter34

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Re: A tragic loss
« Reply #26 on: December 28, 2007, 01:15:01 PM »
I have to agree with some of these folks:  however incorrect it may be to think so, to many Americans, if it ends in "stan"...it's Middle Eastern.

But then technically, we shouldn't get to wave the term "American" around like we totally own it either.  Technically, Brazilians are "american" as well, ya know.  As are Canadians.

But to most of the folks in our country's cornfields, our minds are made up...don't confuse us with the facts.
AIDS isn't for sissies.

Online Dachshund

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Re: A tragic loss
« Reply #27 on: December 28, 2007, 01:19:22 PM »
I am in no way an expert on anything but I do read many books because I know how to read.

Except for maps. Which is exactly what you and ol' Huck have in common. Maybe you and Huck have been spinning the globe in the wrong direction.

:This morning on MSNBC, Huckabee said that Musharraf was unable to control Pakistanís ďeastern bordersĒ with Afghanistan

Jake we didn't need a map to know Pakistan borders Iran. That still doesn't make Pakistan Middle Eastern. India borders China, but that doesn't make India Asian. We border Mexico, but that doesn't make us Mex....nevermind. I'll live the jingoism to the pro's.

Offline jack

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Re: A tragic loss
« Reply #28 on: December 28, 2007, 01:36:27 PM »
I never said Pakistan was Middle Eastern. I never said Pakistan had oil. I never said Pakistan was Asian or Southeast Asian. I have been accused of all three. All I said was It borders Iran. Are you sure you havent been one of those people on Lenos Jaywalking? In truth Musharraf is having problems on both borders,east and west and since India has nukes Musharraf fears that border more than the Afghan border,   of course I am sure you know that. India is the US lever that keeps Musharraf at least pretending he is fighting terrorists.
Again, I said nothing about Pakistan being middle eastern,southeast Asian,or Asian so let it go.

Online Dachshund

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Re: A tragic loss
« Reply #29 on: December 28, 2007, 01:53:59 PM »

Again, I said nothing about Pakistan being middle eastern,southeast Asian,or Asian so let it go.

Gee Jakey, I know you think it is all about you, but it ain't. Since you're such a good reader and all, read reply number 18 in this thread. Like I said, I was responding to Leatherman (quoted) and not you. You chose to ingratiate yourself into the mix and once again got yourself all confuzzled. Maybe you should use your superior reading skills before you reply. It always comes in gobbledy and goes out goop. Okay I'm waiting, spin.

Offline thunter34

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Re: A tragic loss
« Reply #30 on: December 28, 2007, 01:56:49 PM »
I was also writing in response to leatherman in my last post referencing "the stans".  Just fyi.
AIDS isn't for sissies.

Online Miss Philicia

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Re: A tragic loss
« Reply #31 on: December 28, 2007, 02:02:32 PM »
I fully admit to luring jack into a bottomless tar pit.
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Online Dachshund

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Re: A tragic loss
« Reply #32 on: December 28, 2007, 02:04:24 PM »
I fully admit to luring jack into a bottomless tar pit.

 ;D

Offline thunter34

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Re: A tragic loss
« Reply #33 on: December 28, 2007, 02:04:52 PM »
I fully admit to luring jack into a bottomless tar pit.


Yeah, but he totally squelched my fire by agreeing with me on solar.

And he didn't even bite when I made a global warming allusion.

What a pussy.   :P

(Just kidding, Jack.)
AIDS isn't for sissies.

Online Miss Philicia

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Re: A tragic loss
« Reply #34 on: December 28, 2007, 02:08:12 PM »
hmmm... John Bolton seems to be vaguely blaming Dubya for Bhutto's death.

obviously more of those "sour grapes"!
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Offline jack

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Re: A tragic loss
« Reply #35 on: December 28, 2007, 02:55:34 PM »
whatever. I wanted to strangle her yesterday for getting killed just after I had gone long a couple of stocks. I sold immediately and went to the golf course knowing the media would freak out all day long.  Had a nice round of golf and wonderful dinner.  One less Pakistani in the world is not gonna ruin my day. I must admit she was a very impressive woman who obviously had a death wish. Even after her death Pakistan still borders Iran and as far as I know isn't a large oil producer.

Online Dachshund

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Re: A tragic loss
« Reply #36 on: December 28, 2007, 03:01:15 PM »
whatever. I wanted to strangle her yesterday for getting killed just after I had gone long a couple of stocks. One less Pakistani in the world is not gonna ruin my day.

Yep, it's a shame her death had to fuck up your portfolio. Christian indeed. Bigotry is so unbecoming on the Aids infected.
 
« Last Edit: December 28, 2007, 03:16:07 PM by Dachshund »

Offline ademas

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Re: A tragic loss
« Reply #37 on: December 28, 2007, 03:06:40 PM »
whatever. I wanted to strangle her yesterday for getting killed just after I had gone long a couple of stocks. I sold immediately and went to the golf course knowing the media would freak out all day long.  Had a nice round of golf and wonderful dinner.  One less Pakistani in the world is not gonna ruin my day. I must admit she was a very impressive woman who obviously had a death wish. Even after her death Pakistan still borders Iran and as far as I know isn't a large oil producer.

jeebsus, Jack...this is pretty fucking twisted.

Offline vokz

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Re: A tragic loss
« Reply #38 on: December 28, 2007, 03:07:10 PM »
I wouldnít wish anyone dead at the hands of an assassin Ė and I certainly wouldnít wish the inevitable fallout of this assassination on the people of Pakistan - but most of what is written here is so detached from reality that it beggars belief and could have come straight from Fox News ..  or one of Bushís ridiculous speeches.

Her father led Pakistan. He was corrupt and a total disaster for the country he divided as both Prime Minister and President. He also had no qualms about ordering the murders of political opponents.

He learnt his trade well from his father, who was a violent and corrupt feudal lord and politician.

Benazir Bhutto led Pakistan twice. She was a disaster twice. She was corrupt. Contrary to the propaganda we read today, she wasnít deposed by the military .. the democratically elected President representing her own Pakistan Peoples Party removed her from office for corruption and nepotism.

The entire Bhutto dynasty is corrupt and relies on ancient tribalism and their former role as the feudal lords of the Sindh province for all their power and influence.

Sure, certain western governments had a lot riding on her entering into a power sharing agreement with Musharraf; but that didnít make her a pure as virgin snow, nor even a unifying element within the country. So, please, letís have a little reality here and stop swallowing the Bush governmentís convenient rewriting of history.

PS: As for Al Quaeda supposedly hiding out in Iran, I have never heard anything quite so preposterous. Iran and Al Quaeda are sworn enemies (Iran is Shiía and Al Quaeda is Sunni .. exactly the same division that has torn Iraq apart for decades and continues to tear it apart today). It suits the neocons and their Presidential puppet for certain dim-witted elements to believe that Iran and Al Quaeda are linked (just as they wanted us to think that Iraq and Al Quaeda were linked in the Axis of Evil); but they arenít, they never have been and they never will be linked in anything other than their shared hatred for western meddling.

Offline jack

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Re: A tragic loss
« Reply #39 on: December 28, 2007, 03:33:34 PM »
Just being realistic. Her death had a direct impact on my income yesterday. My income is more important to me than who ever is running some third world country,that border Iran,  considered part of south east asia with a daily oil output of 60,000 bl a day.

Offline bocker3

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Re: A tragic loss
« Reply #40 on: December 28, 2007, 03:37:12 PM »
whatever. I wanted to strangle her yesterday for getting killed just after I had gone long a couple of stocks. I sold immediately and went to the golf course knowing the media would freak out all day long.  Had a nice round of golf and wonderful dinner.  One less Pakistani in the world is not gonna ruin my day. I must admit she was a very impressive woman who obviously had a death wish. Even after her death Pakistan still borders Iran and as far as I know isn't a large oil producer.

Spoken like a true Republican.

I have to say, that I often get a little chuckle from your posts and occasionally get a bit confused, but this one made me physically ill.  Are you really so self-centered or are you merely just another Republican shock jock who hasn't made the big time on Fox yet?

HOLY FUCK!!

Mike
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Online Dachshund

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Re: A tragic loss
« Reply #41 on: December 28, 2007, 03:40:30 PM »
One less Pakistani in the world is not gonna ruin my day.

Just racist claptrap.

Offline jack

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Re: A tragic loss
« Reply #42 on: December 28, 2007, 03:40:47 PM »
I was wondering how long it would take for someone to involve Bush and Fox in this. Talk about simple minds.

Offline vokz

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Re: A tragic loss
« Reply #43 on: December 28, 2007, 03:45:31 PM »
Talk about simple minds.

.. and none simpler than Bush and Faux News.

Offline Tim Horn

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Re: A tragic loss
« Reply #44 on: December 28, 2007, 03:45:59 PM »
Jack:

Back off. Now. The only thing you're doing here -- and you know it -- is stirring the pot. Please let that last xenophobic comment in this thread be your last.

Yes, this is a warning.

Tim Horn

Offline bocker3

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Re: A tragic loss
« Reply #45 on: December 28, 2007, 03:49:04 PM »
Just being realistic. Her death had a direct impact on my income yesterday. My income is more important to me than who ever is running some third world country,that border Iran,  considered part of south east asia with a daily oil output of 60,000 bl a day.

While it may be true and understandable that your income is more important to you than someone's life -- but it's not something anyone with an ounce of class or a conscience would share with the world.  Even worse -- when called on it you simply try to rationalize the absurd.  It makes it even harder to approach any of your posts with an open mind.

Oh yeah one more thing.... how about if it was someone running a first world country??  would that make you feel a little bad???

Mike
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Offline jack

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Re: A tragic loss
« Reply #46 on: December 28, 2007, 03:50:07 PM »
She was just another politician. As another person wrote,her family has a long history of corruption,find me a politician anywhere in the world who isnt corrupt,but that is another matter,why should I lose a minute of my day worrying about some gladhanding fourflushing politician in Pakistan? I had big plans for yesterday and her death,the result of her own stupidity or death wish,caused me to lose money. I did buy gld immediately so I offset most of my losses,but she still fucked my Holiday. Because of her I had to spend the day on the golf course. My cost caddy a $100 and $100 on dinner for my wife and I. So I guess her death did force me to go out and put a little money into the ole US economy.

Offline jack

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Re: A tragic loss
« Reply #47 on: December 28, 2007, 03:54:33 PM »
I resent my comments being termed xenophobia. That is ludicrous. One of best friends is from Pakistan. His kids stay at my house on a regular basis. Talk about name calling and baiting. Maybe some here need to go check a dictionary as well as a map.

Offline sharkdiver

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Re: A tragic loss
« Reply #48 on: December 28, 2007, 03:59:30 PM »
This is disgusting

 Get back on track to the original thread!!!!!!!!!1

Offline PeteNYNJ

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Re: A tragic loss
« Reply #49 on: December 28, 2007, 04:01:01 PM »
And maybe someone should learn when to shut the fuck up...

 


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