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Author Topic: There are natural substances that effectively increase cd4s  (Read 20688 times)

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Offline Dachshund

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Re: There are natural substances that effectively increase cd4s
« Reply #50 on: December 27, 2007, 08:45:36 AM »
Take a closer look.I am using the principals based on Jon Kaiser research and providing the upgrade needed for not just marginal increased cd4 counts, but greatly enhanced cd4 production.His formula provides 33 micronutrients.The system i am using provides at least 39 micronutrients.The important point here is not neccesarily the increased amount of micronutrients being used ,but how they are being staged to reach the optimum level of effectiveness.   
http://www.jonkaiser.com/research/broadspectrum.html

No, the important point is this:

About Integrative Health Consulting, Inc.

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Offline knowdifferent

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Re: There are natural substances that effectively increase cd4s
« Reply #51 on: December 27, 2007, 11:27:53 AM »
One thing we canít forget is that this is an AIDS/Meds website and forum.  It is sponsored and funded by the pharmaceutical companiesí advertisements.   The fact that there is a ďNutritionĒ section is ironic, since no one really believes that it is much more than a good thing to do, poz or neg.  Unfortunately, itís always going to be all about money.  And thereís no money in nutritional supplements because they canít be patented.  Therefore, thereís not much, if any research done on supplements.  I can totally sympathize with Lorenzo and relate to his desire to personally seek some solution and cure.  Iím not a scientist or a doctor and I canít sit around and wait for some scientist in a laboratory somewhere to do something either.  Thatís just my personality.  And thatís not to say the folks who would rather go that route are wrong.  I get such an overwhelming sadness and feeling of hopelessness from not actively doing something every day to change my life.  I can also relate to you folks who say heís being dodgy and vague.  Fact is, even if his tcells did improve, the doctors would merely call it a fluke.  But if they really did, then of course he wants to share the news with everyone.  The proof is in the pudding, Lorenzo.  I think you truly believe in your treatment and your decision to do things differently.  I admire that, but to spread the word about a treatment that has not yet been ďtruly successfulĒ is just not fair to everyone else.  Continue your hard work and it will pay off.  At that time, you can share your success.  In fact, the whole world will want to know.

Offline thunter34

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  • His name is Carl.
Re: There are natural substances that effectively increase cd4s
« Reply #52 on: December 27, 2007, 11:34:45 AM »
Take a closer look.I am using the principals based on Jon Kaiser research and providing the upgrade needed for not just marginal increased cd4 counts, but greatly enhanced cd4 production.His formula provides 33 micronutrients.The system i am using provides at least 39 micronutrients.The important point here is not neccesarily the increased amount of micronutrients being used ,but how they are being staged to reach the optimum level of effectiveness.   
http://www.jonkaiser.com/research/broadspectrum.html

Uh huh.  Yeah.  So....

Basically what this is all pointing to is that you think you've tweaked the K-PAX deal just enough that you now can repackage it as your own deal.  And you can't (read: won't) provide more specifics "at this time" for fear of "Big Pharma" taking it and running with it in the evil pursuit of profits...because you have a mind to sell it yourself for a tidy sum.  Isn't that right, Lorenzo?

I'm still in a stew over here about this thread.  I just don't like it one bit - because, contrary to what is espoused by Kaiser and the K-PAX bunch, you've made numerous allusions in this very thread to using this "system" of yours on its own  without HAART, instead of HAART...all while admitting that you have no clinical trials to back your asssertions, just your own testimony.  In fact, it seems you are now trying to piggyback on Kaiser's research and documentation to prop up your "system" just as you've piggybacked on his formula to drum up this "system" in the first place.

AIDS isn't for sissies.

Offline thunter34

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Re: There are natural substances that effectively increase cd4s
« Reply #53 on: December 27, 2007, 11:59:33 AM »
One thing we canít forget is that this is an AIDS/Meds website and forum.  It is sponsored and funded by the pharmaceutical companiesí advertisements.   The fact that there is a ďNutritionĒ section is ironic, since no one really believes that it is much more than a good thing to do, poz or neg.  Unfortunately, itís always going to be all about money.  And thereís no money in nutritional supplements because they canít be patented.  Therefore, thereís not much, if any research done on supplements.  I can totally sympathize with Lorenzo and relate to his desire to personally seek some solution and cure.  Iím not a scientist or a doctor and I canít sit around and wait for some scientist in a laboratory somewhere to do something either.  Thatís just my personality.  And thatís not to say the folks who would rather go that route are wrong.  I get such an overwhelming sadness and feeling of hopelessness from not actively doing something every day to change my life.  I can also relate to you folks who say heís being dodgy and vague.  Fact is, even if his tcells did improve, the doctors would merely call it a fluke.  But if they really did, then of course he wants to share the news with everyone.  The proof is in the pudding, Lorenzo.  I think you truly believe in your treatment and your decision to do things differently.  I admire that, but to spread the word about a treatment that has not yet been ďtruly successfulĒ is just not fair to everyone else.  Continue your hard work and it will pay off.  At that time, you can share your success.  In fact, the whole world will want to know.

I had it in mind to fix your little red wagon here, know...until I read that last little part.   ;)  I'm in agreement with that.  I'm not so much in agreement with the statement that "no one really believes it is much more than a good thing to do, poz or neg."  Not so for me.  Proper nutrition is absolutely vital to sustaining life and good health.  I don't shortchange it in estimation one bit.  I recognize that a salad can do beneficial things a PI can't do.  Milk does a body good and all that.  It CANNOT do one thing that drugs can do in this case - properly inhibit the replication of HIV.  At least, thus far no such success has been proven.  But that suppression of HIV is essential to survival in this case, so I'm not keen on people flagging around "alternatives" that don't have scientific support behind them.

And as for there being "no money in nutritional supplementation":  tell that to GNC.  There's a great deal of cash to be made in that arena.

Like know says, Lorenzo:  the proof is in the pudding.

AIDS isn't for sissies.

Offline Lorenzopier

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Re: There are natural substances that effectively increase cd4s
« Reply #54 on: December 29, 2007, 03:41:46 PM »
Hello Knowdiffrent,when i first started experimenting with micronutrients combined with HAART in 2001 as a way to boost cd4 or counter the side effects of HAART,each of my hiv docs since that time basically looked at me as if i was crazy and  thouroughly disgusted at me (probaly because of the large amount of micronutrients i was taking).Because of those negative expereinces with docs i have not told my current doc that i am using micronutrients during my on-going 16 month structured treatment interruption.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2007, 04:02:14 PM by Lorenzopier »

Offline Dachshund

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Re: There are natural substances that effectively increase cd4s
« Reply #55 on: December 29, 2007, 04:11:40 PM »
Hello Knowdiffrent,when i first started experimenting with micronutrients combined with HAART in 2001 as a way to boost cd4 or counter the side effects of HAART,each of my hiv docs since that time basically looked at me as if i was crazy and  thouroughly disgusted at me (probaly because of the large amount of micronutrients i was taking).Because of those negative expereinces with docs i have not told my current doc that i am using micronutrients during my on-going 16 month structured treatment interruption.

This is a bit different from what you initially posted. Where I come from we call it fibbing.

Hello i have been Poz about 20 years and have found that by using the correct combination of natural substrates i have been able to remain med free for the last 15 months (doctor monitored).

Offline Merlin

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Re: There are natural substances that effectively increase cd4s
« Reply #56 on: December 30, 2007, 05:42:56 AM »
Hmmm...guess we are all wrong!!!  It's not snake oil we are dealing with here. It's it's, the snake itself ! :o

The Last Snake on Earth...and it's not on meds of cos...coming to a clinic near you..lol  ;D

 
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Make It Happen...

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Offline michael2986

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Re: There are natural substances that effectively increase cd4s
« Reply #57 on: January 02, 2008, 03:29:01 PM »
I have to agree with the last person.  Snake oil sums up the situation for me here!

Offline northernguy

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Re: There are natural substances that effectively increase cd4s
« Reply #58 on: January 02, 2008, 10:44:01 PM »
You know I have a natural system too.  My system keeps the viral load down naturally.  Somehow my body fights off this infection on its own, so I need a volunteer to EAT ME.

I'll volunteer :-*
Apr 28/06 cd4 600 vl 10,600 cd% 25
Nov 8/09 cd4 510 vl 49,5000 cd% 16
Jan 16/10 cd4 660 vl 54,309 cd% 16
Feb 17/10 Started Atripla
Mar 7/10 cd4 710 vl 1,076 cd% 21
Apr 18/10 cd4 920 vl 268 cd% 28
Jun 19/10 cd4 450 vl 60 cd% 25
Aug 15/10 cd4 680 vl 205 cd% 27
Apr 3/11 cd4 780 vl <40 cd% 30
Jul 17/11 cd4 960 vl <40 cd%33
April 15/12 cd4 1,010 vl <40 cd% 39
April 20/12 Switched to Viramune + Truvada
Aug 2/12 cd4 1040, vl <40, cd% 38
Oct 19 cd4 1,110 vl <40 cd% 41

Offline redhotmuslbear

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Re: There are natural substances that effectively increase cd4s
« Reply #59 on: January 03, 2008, 11:35:15 AM »
Hello Knowdiffrent,when i first started experimenting with micronutrients combined with HAART in 2001 as a way to boost cd4 or counter the side effects of HAART,each of my hiv docs since that time basically looked at me as if i was crazy and  thouroughly disgusted at me (probaly because of the large amount of micronutrients i was taking).Because of those negative expereinces with docs i have not told my current doc that i am using micronutrients during my on-going 16 month structured treatment interruption.

Lorenzo,
While it seems many people are waiting anxiously for you to be exposed as some sort of heretic, I admire your tenacity, if not the use of resources.  I had similar negative experiences with HIV specialists in 2000 that led me and my then primary physician to forge a closer partnership for care that included a couple treatment interruptions over the five years that followed.  Still, I was arrogant to believe that I had stumbled onto a brew of supplements that was kicking serious HIV butt, when it turned out to be my own system through inherited genetic traits. 

Have you pursued any examination of, for instance, your Human Lymphocyte Antigen alleles to see if you have similar pre-dispositions for survival without swallowing so many checmical that you may not need?  I'm down to using a mutli-vitamin twice a day, 1500mg slow-release niacin twice daily for cholesterol improvement, and a high-potency B blend to help with healing following hand surgery.

Cheers,
David
"The real problem is not whether machines think but whether men do." - BF Skinner
12-31-09   222wks VL  2430 CD4 690 (37%)
09-30-09   208wks VL  2050  CD4 925 (42%)
06-25-08   143wks VL  1359  CD4 668 (32%)  CD8 885
02-11-08   123wks off meds:  VL 1364 CD4 892(40%/0.99 ratio)
10-19-07   112wks off meds:   VL 292  CD4 857(37%/0.85 ratio)

One copy of delta-32 for f*****d up CCR5 receptors, and an HLA B44+ allele for "CD8-mediated immunity"... beteer than winning Powerball, almost!

Offline Lorenzopier

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Re: There are natural substances that effectively increase cd4s
« Reply #60 on: January 03, 2008, 04:15:43 PM »
Hello Redhotmuslbear,I notice that you have been off meds at least 116 weeks! That is truly phenomenal that you have the genetics to allow you to sustain a treatment interruption that long.Unfortunately for me i am very sure that i do not have anytype of genetic traits that would allow  me to continue my treatment interuption of 64 weeks. On experiments where i have discontinued HAART i experienced  very sudden and  drastic drops in cd4 counts and skyrocketing viral load rates.Likewise during  experiments where i discontinued the micronutrient program i experienced  very sudden and drastic drops in cd4s and skyrocketing viral loads as well.For increased healing rates i have found that zinc combined with manganese on a empty stomach to be very effective for increasing igf-1 and igf-2.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2008, 04:29:47 PM by Lorenzopier »

Offline Dachshund

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Re: There are natural substances that effectively increase cd4s
« Reply #61 on: January 03, 2008, 05:47:14 PM »
Hello Redhotmuslbear,I notice that you have been off meds at least 116 weeks!

I hope you understand that David is a long term nonprogressor and doesn't need to be on HAART. He also clearly states that this has nothing to do with supplements. It's not the phenomena that you wish to make it.

Offline Lorenzopier

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Re: There are natural substances that effectively increase cd4s
« Reply #62 on: January 03, 2008, 09:55:21 PM »
Hello Dachshund, thanks for pointing out to me that David is a long term non-progresser.When David made the statement "closer partnership for care that included a couple treatment interruptions over the five years that followed". I assumed that he must have been on HAART at some point for him to have went on a couple treatment interruptions.I think he must have meant treatment interruptions of the supplement program that he was using.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2008, 11:48:56 PM by Lorenzopier »

Offline redhotmuslbear

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Re: There are natural substances that effectively increase cd4s
« Reply #63 on: January 04, 2008, 10:08:51 AM »
I assumed that he must have been on HAART at some point for him to have went on a couple treatment interruptions.I think he must have meant treatment interruptions of the supplement program that he was using.

Yes, I was on HAART from June 1998 to Sept 2005, and during that time I did a couple interruptions based on having gotten the bugs undetectable and sustaining "noirmal" CD4s before the breaks.  Sad to say, I managed to get an STD each time that caused my numbers to crash, and I restarted HAART out of fear, rather than seeing what my body could do when the STD was beaten back. 

Indeed, I am an "outlier," but my concern is that any changes you attribute to supplements may, in fact, have resulted from your own biology at work.  Experiements with a sample size of one rarely offer valid conclusions.

Cheers,
David
"The real problem is not whether machines think but whether men do." - BF Skinner
12-31-09   222wks VL  2430 CD4 690 (37%)
09-30-09   208wks VL  2050  CD4 925 (42%)
06-25-08   143wks VL  1359  CD4 668 (32%)  CD8 885
02-11-08   123wks off meds:  VL 1364 CD4 892(40%/0.99 ratio)
10-19-07   112wks off meds:   VL 292  CD4 857(37%/0.85 ratio)

One copy of delta-32 for f*****d up CCR5 receptors, and an HLA B44+ allele for "CD8-mediated immunity"... beteer than winning Powerball, almost!

Offline Lorenzopier

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Re: There are natural substances that effectively increase cd4s
« Reply #64 on: January 09, 2008, 12:25:58 PM »
Randomised trial of effects of vitamin supplements on pregnancy outcomes and T cell counts in HIV-1-infected women in Tanzania.
Fawzi WW, Msamanga GI, Spiegelman D, Urassa EJ, McGrath N, Mwakagile D, Antelman G, Mbise R, Herrera G, Kapiga S, Willett W, Hunter DJ.

Department of Nutrition, Harvard School of Public Health, Boston, Massachusetts 02115, USA.

BACKGROUND: In HIV-1-infected women, poor micronutrient status has been associated with faster progression of HIV-1 disease and adverse birth outcomes. We assessed the effects of vitamin A and multivitamins on birth outcomes in such women. METHODS: In Tanzania, 1075 HIV-1-infected pregnant women at between 12 and 27 weeks' gestation received placebo (n=267), vitamin A (n=269), multivitamins excluding vitamin A (n=269), or multivitamins including vitamin A (n=270) in a randomised, double-blind, placebo-controlled trial with a 2x2 factorial design. We measured the effects of multivitamins and vitamin A on birth outcomes and counts of T lymphocyte subsets. We did analyses by intention to treat. RESULTS: 30 fetal deaths occurred among women assigned multivitamins compared with 49 among those not on multivitamins (relative risk 0.61 [95% CI 0.39-0.94] p=0.02). Multivitamin supplementation decreased the risk of low birthweight (<2500 g) by 44% (0.56 [0.38-0.82] p=0.003), severe preterm birth (<34 weeks of gestation) by 39% (0.61 [0.38-0.96] p=0.03), and small size for gestational age at birth by 43% (0.57 [0.39-0.82] p=0.002). Vitamin A supplementation had no significant effect on these variables. Multivitamins, but not vitamin A, resulted in a significant increase in CD4, CD8, and CD3 counts. INTERPRETATION: Multivitamin supplementation is a low-cost way of substantially decreasing adverse pregnancy outcomes and increasing T-cell counts in HIV-1-infected women. The clinical relevance of our findings for vertical transmission and clinical progression of HIV-1 disease is yet to be ascertained.

PIP: Poor micronutrient status has been associated, in HIV-positive women, with faster progression of HIV disease and adverse birth outcomes. This randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled study assessed the effects of vitamin A and multivitamins on birth outcomes in 1075 HIV-positive pregnant women at 12-27 weeks' gestation from Dar es Salaam, Tanzania. There were no differences in baseline plasma vitamin concentrations between groups. 267 women received a placebo, 269 were given vitamin A, 269 were administered a multivitamin excluding vitamin A, and 270 received a multivitamin including vitamin A. There were 30 fetal deaths in the group of women who received multivitamins (with and without vitamin A) compared with 49 among those not given multivitamins (relative risk (RR), 0.61; 95% confidence interval (CI), 0.39-0.94). Multivitamin supplementation decreased the risk of low birth weight (2500 g) by 44% (RR, 0.56; 95% CI, 0.38-0.82), of preterm birth (prior to 34 weeks gestation) by 39% (RR, 0.61; 95% CI, 0.38-0.96), and of small size for gestational age at birth by 43% (RR, 0.57; 95% CI, 0.39-0.82). Vitamin A had no significant effect on these variables. Multivitamins, but not vitamin A, were associated with significant increases in CD4, CD8, and CD3 counts. The clinical relevance of multivitamin supplementation for vertical transmission of HIV and the progression of disease remain unknown. However, these results indicate such supplementation is a low-cost means of substantially decreasing adverse pregnancy outcomes and increasing T cell counts in HIV-infected women. The observed beneficial effects of multivitamins on birth outcomes may have been mediated through improved maternal immune status.

« Last Edit: January 09, 2008, 12:31:49 PM by Lorenzopier »

Offline hartiepie

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Re: There are natural substances that effectively increase cd4s
« Reply #65 on: January 09, 2008, 01:45:56 PM »
>>>Randomised trial of effects of vitamin supplements on pregnancy outcomes and T cell counts in HIV-1-infected women in Tanzania.
Fawzi WW, Msamanga GI, Spiegelman D, Urassa EJ, McGrath N, Mwakagile D, Antelman G, Mbise R, Herrera G, Kapiga S, Willett W, Hunter DJ.

Department of Nutrition, Harvard School of Public Health, Boston, Massachusetts 02115, USA.<<< etc

Lorenzopier: I hope you are not submitting this as any kind of proof of your initial statements because presumably you are not
1. a woman
2. A Tanzanian
3. pregnant
4. taking only a multi-vitamin as described in this summary


Offline Lorenzopier

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Re: There are natural substances that effectively increase cd4s
« Reply #66 on: January 09, 2008, 02:46:41 PM »
Hello Hartiepie,
I am in fact using a very advanced version of a multivitamin which contains at least 39 micronutrients.I am not using these micronutrients in combination with HAART.I am in fact submitting the Tanzania trial and the trial by Jon Kaiser to further reinforce my own results with micronutrients.I would also like to state that just because many of the board members and guests of this forum have not been able to obtain favorable cd4 gains by using micronutrients or herbs
it would be very discnering to draw a conclusion that micronutrients or herbs can not be effective in increasing cd4 counts.I will admit that it is  discerning on my part to have posted on this board,without having more critical evidence and facts to back up my statements.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2008, 04:25:37 PM by Lorenzopier »

Offline Merlin

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Re: There are natural substances that effectively increase cd4s
« Reply #67 on: January 09, 2008, 03:02:39 PM »
"I am in fact using a very advanced version of a multivitamin which contains at least 39 micronutrients.."

I see it coming...I really do....hiss.

The study was done more than a decade ago (1993), reported in 1998 and is mostly common public knowledge, that a multivit is indeed very helpful to PLWHA. No one here disputes that...duh? Point is, what's the real point of this thread if nothing NEW, EXCITING, REVOLUTIONARY, PIONEERING...etc is being introduced and shared. ::)

I seriously rather drink snake soup...at least I can make a nice snake leather wallet afterwards. :o ;D ;)
« Last Edit: January 09, 2008, 03:04:11 PM by Merlin »
I'll leave Hatred to those not strong enough to Love.

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Believe & The Power Of The Mind Transforms.
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I forgive them for everything.

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Offline hartiepie

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Re: There are natural substances that effectively increase cd4s
« Reply #68 on: January 09, 2008, 03:25:05 PM »
Lorenzopier, I do think you are hopeless on this issue. As several people have pointed out, you are talking in circles.

Speaking as a PhD who is involved in all kinds of research issues, I want to be clear on several things I see you writing here:

1. You are doing "self experiments" --- I haven't a clue what this means as it is a contradiction in terms as you describe them.

2. What you quote are scientific studies, but what say you are doing ain't science. It just isn't. Plenty of people previously have written what constitutes scientific method so I'll save us both some time by not doing again.

No further comments from me............

Offline Merlin

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Re: There are natural substances that effectively increase cd4s
« Reply #69 on: January 09, 2008, 06:00:46 PM »
Seriously, Lorenzopier, u give all snakeoil salesman a really bad name....hiss >:(

             
     hiss..hiss..>- ;)         >:( 8) :o
                         >:(  >:(             8)         >:D :o :)   
                                                   :P :'(              ::) ...oily..oily trail....(US$100/barrel)
                               
I'll leave Hatred to those not strong enough to Love.

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Believe & The Power Of The Mind Transforms.
Make It Happen...

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I blame them for nothing.
I forgive them for everything.

---->> Mary J. Blige on dysfuctional parents

Offline Tim Horn

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Re: There are natural substances that effectively increase cd4s
« Reply #70 on: January 10, 2008, 07:06:54 AM »
Lorenzopier has requested that this thread be deleted. We seldom, if ever, do this when threads have grown to this length. I'm locking it instead.

Tim Horn

 


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