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Author Topic: Reducing viral load through food and or suplements  (Read 9460 times)

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Offline jupiter

  • Member
  • Posts: 89
Reducing viral load through food and or suplements
« on: November 11, 2007, 11:26:49 PM »
Hi all,
Im just wondering if anyone or who has tried to control their viral load with diet and or vitamins or suplements? I have heard of Goji juice and spirulina can help with this. Has anyone had any positve experience.
Or should I say boost the immune system
Thanks Jupiter
« Last Edit: November 12, 2007, 07:58:37 PM by jupiter »

Offline sacinsc

  • Member
  • Posts: 353
Re: Reducing viral load through food and or suplements
« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2007, 12:29:36 AM »
Some people have different ideas on this, and there is no reason not to. Each person believes their own.....the only thing that my doctor has told me to take to boost my immune system is selenium. There are no supplements designed to go after the virus itself to my knowledge. And supplements themselves aren't approved by the FDA here in the states, but are regulated to make sure they aren't poison....maybe they should do that to imports from China? Anyway, docs say a multivitamin and selenium so thats what I take. I took lots of stuff at one time, but my levels got worse so to me I don't take them anymore. Others have had the opposite happen. Try what you want, but remember the costs and a lot of it you are pissing into the toilet because you already have enough. Best thing to do is ask your ID doc.

Matt
March 07 - Negative
May 07 - Exposed
June 07 - Seroconversion
September 07 - CD4 402 VL 118000 25%
October 07 -     CD4 294 VL 124000 22%
November 07 - Norvir, Triuvada and Reyataz
December 07 -  CD4 355 VL  550 .... guess the meds are working.
January 08 - CD4 446 VL <48 undetectable!
April 08 - CD4 554 VL <48 undetectable!
July 08 - CD4 666 VL <48 undetectable! Hporay...I have devil CD4's

Offline Matty the Damned

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  • Posts: 12,198
  • Ninja Please
Re: Reducing viral load through food and or suplements
« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2007, 01:37:11 AM »
Jupe,

No diet and supplements will not reduce your viral load. So far the only thing which has been demonstrated to reduce VL is HAART.

MtD

Offline risred1

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  • Posts: 419
  • My Source for Supps - www.newyorkbuyersclub.org
Re: Reducing viral load through food and or suplements
« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2007, 09:46:36 PM »
I am a "proponent", for lack of a better word, of supplements, but fundamentally I agree that HIV will do what it will and progress at its own rate pretty much regardless of what you do.

But then why take supplements?

My understanding is that HIV has its own side effects as it progresses in the body. I believe that supplements can assist the body in those effects which I believe are:

metabolic effects - Fatigue is a often sited problem with HIV infection. After all its is a continuous Viral infection your body does not clear. Supplements may help fight fatigue.

inflammation effects - HIV can cause an inflammatory response in the body, for example,  pre med PN has been associated with HIV infection. Anti oxident supplements may help counteract the inflammatory effects of HIV.

gut health issues - Digestive issues from HIV are common and not discussed much, but even on these forums is is common to find POZ folks not on meds having HIV induced Diarrhea and other associated issues. Since CD4 are heavily concentrated in the digestive track, quite often the HIV infection is quite active in the gut. Supplements can improve digestive function for both pre and post med folks.

Immune Boosting - While I do not think that supplements have really much affect on Viral Load, some supplements have been identified as being able to boost the immune system, specifically CD4 count and percentage. The only recognized one is Selenium which must be limited as too much Selenium is not a good thing. There may be others, of which I'm taking ECGC or Green Tea supplementation which may for some provide some CD4 boost, long term I don't know how long ECGC effects are maintained.

but using supplements to address these area, the idea is to keep the body working better while the HIV infection is doing its thing, trying to offset the effects of HIV and keeping the body from being depleted of certain specific substances and dampening the damage that HIV caused ether through direct action or indirect infection fighting action of the body.

Keeping the body essentially strong during the infection may keep you off meds longer, and may also balance out even the effects of medicinal inflammatory reactions such as PN. The first part of that last statement is my rational and my personal view of the potential effect of supplementation, there really isn't much proof other than some substances are noted to do certain things such as selenium and other anti oxidants such as Carnitine, Alpha Lipoic Acid and NAC.

So while I substantially agree with Matty's view that nothing is shown other that HAART to reduce Viral Load, there is a rational for supplements, but it may not be what you were hoping for. Supps are really not a substitute for HAART and I doubt is ever will. Supps should be looked at as a way to possibly deal with the affects of HIV. The ultimate problem with supplements are that some of the information supporting supps are anecdotal. Not that this isn't something to consider, as many healing herbal tonics have much folk lore behind them that support their use. And the other issue is efficacy for supplements are highly variable, and it is very possible to end up like me with a large list of supps without a real clear idea which one is actually maybe doing something. It often is a shotgun approach.

I do keep referring to the most recent addition to my supplementation which is ECGC/Green Tea supplement which has corresponded to a pretty good bump in my CD4 of 20%. As correlations are not proof, it is the only time my CD4 has actually boosted significantly, which also corresponded to a tripling of my VL from 15k to 45K. Good or bad or both, its hard for me to really say.

And if you need information about what supplements are utilized by POZ folks, why, what they treat and the available scientific or folk lore based reasons, you can utilize the newyorkbuyersclub.org supplement pages for information, which may help guide you to what supplements can be utilized to deal with which particular issue you may be experiencing. NYBC is a 503-C non profit organization whose charter is to help those with immune system problems primarily HIV infection and AIDS. They also list information for those on meds to counter the side effects of them. Such as PN and Gut issues and even sleep disorders.

« Last Edit: November 12, 2007, 09:55:31 PM by risred1 »
risred1 - hiv +
02/07 CD4 404 - 27% - VL 15k
10/07 CD4 484 - 31% - VL 45k
05/08 CD4 414 - 26% - VL 70k
01/09 CD4 365 - 23% - VL 65k
05/09 CD4 291 - 23% - VL 115k - Started Meds - Reyataz/Truvada
06/09 CD4 394 - ?% - VL 1200 - Boosted Reyataz with Norvir and Truvada
07/09 CD4 441 - ?% - VL 118 - Boosted Reyataz with Norvir and Truvada
09/09 CD4 375 - ?% - VL Undetectable - Boosted Reyataz with Norvir and Truvada
12/09 CD4 595 - ?% - VL Undetectable - VIT D 34 - Reyataz/Truvada/Norvir

Offline madbrain

  • Member
  • Posts: 1,208
  • No longer an active member
    • My personal site
Re: Reducing viral load through food and or suplements
« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2007, 07:52:51 PM »
Jupe,

No diet and supplements will not reduce your viral load. So far the only thing which has been demonstrated to reduce VL is HAART.

MtD

Actually, there have been some studies with supplements about their effect on HIV viral load. Not all of them are very conclusive or generally accepted. The first one on selenium seems to convince my physician, though. However, there is nothing that is demonstrated to be nearly as effective as HAART on HIV VL .

http://archinte.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/167/2/148

http://www.aidsonline.com/pt/re/aids/abstract.00002030-199813000-00013.htm;jsessionid=H6GC1GfFHZV30b5GrxTPQvVkWGtnxlpJywLyVh2Y2vJdBvgL9yH6!-368808804!181195628!8091!-1

http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/abstract/351/1/23

Offline Matty the Damned

  • Member
  • Posts: 12,198
  • Ninja Please
Re: Reducing viral load through food and or suplements
« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2007, 08:02:04 PM »
My understanding is that selenium seems to increase CD4 counts a bit. That's quite different to reducing viral load.

MtD

Offline risred1

  • Member
  • Posts: 419
  • My Source for Supps - www.newyorkbuyersclub.org
Re: Reducing viral load through food and or suplements
« Reply #6 on: November 14, 2007, 11:30:31 AM »
I agree.

Boosting CD4 does not mean lowering VL.

In fact boosting CD4 may correspond to an increase in VL, which I'm looking at right now.


risred1 - hiv +
02/07 CD4 404 - 27% - VL 15k
10/07 CD4 484 - 31% - VL 45k
05/08 CD4 414 - 26% - VL 70k
01/09 CD4 365 - 23% - VL 65k
05/09 CD4 291 - 23% - VL 115k - Started Meds - Reyataz/Truvada
06/09 CD4 394 - ?% - VL 1200 - Boosted Reyataz with Norvir and Truvada
07/09 CD4 441 - ?% - VL 118 - Boosted Reyataz with Norvir and Truvada
09/09 CD4 375 - ?% - VL Undetectable - Boosted Reyataz with Norvir and Truvada
12/09 CD4 595 - ?% - VL Undetectable - VIT D 34 - Reyataz/Truvada/Norvir

Offline madbrain

  • Member
  • Posts: 1,208
  • No longer an active member
    • My personal site
Re: Reducing viral load through food and or suplements
« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2007, 02:49:38 AM »
Hi,

I agree.

Boosting CD4 does not mean lowering VL.

In fact boosting CD4 may correspond to an increase in VL, which I'm looking at right now.




Well, they certainly don't always go together. At least HAART both increases CD4 and decreases VL.
Some of the supplements seem to have the same effects, but to much lesser degrees.

Now, if they could keep me away from the common cold ...

Offline Paulette

  • Member
  • Posts: 112
Re: Reducing viral load through food and or suplements
« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2007, 09:40:21 AM »
To my experience i have found that adding garlic, onions, shallots, and pears to your diet along with Phyto Foods(green food pill ) all have natural antivirals I'm them, and taken along with my meds has helped tremendously. be careful about certain supplements , because they tend to increase HIV replication. I to try to do as many natural things as i can to help. I know enchieca mostly found in certain types of tea isn't so good for poz people.  here in Georgia we have a program that's called thrive and they go over the do's and don't of supplements and diets. try to contact your local Service's that are available in your area to see if you have something similar in your area or see a nutrittiousnist that works with poz people and they could help create a program that's right for you, but don't for get to check with your doctor first. I hopes this helps.
Paulette
I have HIV; it doesn't me;)

Offline bimazek

  • Member
  • Posts: 781
Re: Reducing viral load through food and or suplements
« Reply #9 on: November 25, 2007, 03:09:33 AM »
valtrex which is a dna polymerase chain terminator and used for shingles and small herpes blisters was just shown in a study to reduce viral load by 50%

not sure if this will be long term but for duration of study

when i did a search

dna polymerase has nine known types in human body

one is   the thing that valtrex med effects

the ninth one is   RTI  reverse transcriptase

so you could say that     
dna polymerase is reverse transcriptase

any way no big deal i agree with matty  or the guy above no food or supliment will do anything that is proven long term

there is some evidence that selenium   --- see my old posts in this section

and many other natural things but the course of the disease is completely un changable

it takes 3 to 9 years on average for the immune system to be distroyed without meds

this depends on the actual complex peptides and make up of each persons dna immune system

yes perhaps you can get 10% effect with nutrition   max 3 to 9 months

but that is very small

HAART will give you  10 years to 20  years to 30 years of extra life supposedly  -- that is what science says

and new meds just out and coming out will do more




Offline newbie76

  • Member
  • Posts: 238
Re: Reducing viral load through food and or suplements
« Reply #10 on: December 07, 2007, 01:18:05 PM »
I take a standard multivitamin, a green tea extract pill and Selenium 200 everyday as I wake up. I swallow these 3 pills with an Actimel.

Been doing that for 4 months now.

Hope it works!!!
25th Apr 07: The worst day of my life
27th Apr 07: cd4 202 14%
30th Apr 07: cd4 126 18% VL 110000
19th May 07: Started Truvada/Sustiva
20th Jun 07: cd4 218 25% VL 435
13th Aug 07: cd4 374 20% VL 64
20th Dec 07: cd4 435 24% VL <50
20th Oct 08: cd4 725 31% VL <50
30th Nov 09: cd4 725 30% VL <50
01st Nov 10: cd4 755 33% VL<50
11th Nov 11: cd4 754 32% VL<50
01st May 12: cd4 864 40% VL<50
01st May 13: cd4 615 VL 609 :-/
14th May 13: VL <50

Offline FIARgmc

  • Member
  • Posts: 11
Re: Reducing viral load through food and or suplements
« Reply #11 on: December 08, 2007, 07:38:28 AM »
I don't think there is anything as effective as antiretroviral therapy for lowering viral load.

However, that is NOT the only goal for living with HIV. It is a very important one--but the GOAL, I think, is to live well/healthy and with an expectancy for a reasonable life span. I think we are, collectively, getting closer to that goal.

On the one hand, HIV infection results in a lot of cell damage (CD4+ T cells, but also B cells, macrophages etc.) as well as tissue damage (lymph node architecture, gut lymphoid system, neurologic damage). A lot of the T cells that die in uncontrolled infection are not HIV-infected!  One plausible cause for which there is a great deal of evidence if not definitive proof is oxidative stress and inflammation as a source for much of this damage.

So controlling HIV load with antivirals WORKS for most people to some degree but with the caveats of resistance and side effects.

For those not on anitiretroviral therapy, there may be agents that can slow disease progression (as a simple multivitamin has been demonstrated to do in the Tanzanian and Thai studies). Other botanical agents may also exert an effect both on disease progression and some may modestly impact viral load--though data are few and far between due to the lack of huge profits to be made from selling a plant product...this IS changing, albeit slowly. (Investigations of methods devised from traditional systems of medicine are occurring, e.g., Chinese, Ayurvedic, Siddha, African traidtions, etc.)

For the years I've been doing this work, I dont believe any of these interventions will utterly replace the need for ARV. But then I don't believe ARV replaces the need for good nutrition, diet, exercise and, I believe, some supplementation can help immunological and neurological recovery as well as from the mitochondrial and other toxicities of ARV therapy itself.

These "CAM" (complementary and alternative medicine) approaches need to be assessed to prioritize the most critical clinical questions and then funding secured to answer those questions regarding their safety and efficacy. Preferably from NON-commercial sources as the "privatization" of research and access to care has demonstrably failed horribly for millions of us worldwide.

What do you think?
George M. Carter




Offline aztecan

  • Member
  • Posts: 5,382
  • 29 years positive, 56 years a pain in the butt
Re: Reducing viral load through food and or suplements
« Reply #12 on: December 09, 2007, 12:12:15 PM »
This has been an ongoing argument for a long time and it still is interesting. Before I comment, though I would clear up one thing Madbrain said.

Hi,

Well, they certainly don't always go together. At least HAART both increases CD4 and decreases VL.


HAART doesn't increase CD4s. Its only aim is to reduce the viral load. This is a common misconception, so I thought I should point it out.

By reducing viral load, a person may allow his/her CD4 to increase naturally, but how much depends on the individual.

That said, I think George Carter had a positive take on this issue. Just reducing viral load isn't enough to guarantee a long, enjoyable life. It helps, but more is needed.

The cellular damage done by the virus and the ARVs is not in question. Nor are the metabolic changes caused by them.

How to best address these changes and set yourself on the path of living in a healthy, happy manner is where a lot of the debate comes from.

Antioxidants have long shown promise along these lines. Whether you get them as supplements or through a healthy diet, they are important.

There is no simple answer to this, no "pop a pill and be fine." It is a combination of many things, including exercise, diet, HAART, supplements, etc.

Above all, I believe it takes a positive attitude, pardon the expression. Enjoying each day as it comes is not just a platitude, it is a lifestyle.

HUGS,

Mark

"May your life preach more loudly than your lips."
~ William Ellery Channing (Unitarian Minister)

Offline bimazek

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  • Posts: 781
Re: Reducing viral load through food and or suplements
« Reply #13 on: December 14, 2007, 07:57:31 PM »
I am a "proponent", for lack of a better word, of supplements, but fundamentally I agree that HIV will do what it will and progress at its own rate pretty much regardless of what you do.

I agree that HIV will do what it will and progress at its own rate pretty much regardless of what you do.

I have spent the last 2 or 3 years trying to find something natural or vitamins, NOTHING works but haart, and haart has terrible side effects i am told

there is nothing you can eat -- or vitamins that will do anything to slow this virus

at least that is my experience

haart is a type of chemotherapy taken every day so it is going to always have side effects, eventually for many this make life not worth living, the toll on the body is too great

i posted many things in this forum with hope about vitamins and such
i feel that there is almost no real effect at all from anything

long story why

of course taking drugs and horrible things will make hiv distroy the body faster


 


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