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Author Topic: A Challenge  (Read 3663 times)

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Offline bear60

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A Challenge
« on: October 27, 2007, 12:37:18 PM »
I found this on UTube. Its a challenge to students of today to DO SOMETHING about protesting the war and the US threats on Iran. Its refreshing to see but still...where ARE the protests?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Fzt4Q9VCpc
Poz Bear Type in Philadelphia

Offline Dachshund

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Re: A Challenge
« Reply #1 on: October 27, 2007, 01:02:37 PM »
Unfortunately even the protest songs of the 60's and 70's are now used for nothing more than a Nike commercial. "Just do it" has taken on a whole new meaning.

Offline bear60

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Re: A Challenge
« Reply #2 on: October 27, 2007, 01:38:11 PM »
Poz Bear Type in Philadelphia

Offline leatherman

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Re: A Challenge
« Reply #3 on: October 27, 2007, 01:45:05 PM »
where ARE the protests?

Well, there's no draft, so the war isn't "affecting" every American household. If all our citizens were in line to go fight this war, then you'd be seeing protests. There's also no war-time industry or rationing. Remember, we're supposed to go shopping.  ;)
leatherman (aka mIkIE)


chart from 1992-2013; updated 2/09/13  Reyataz/Norvir/Truvada

Offline BB

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Re: A Challenge
« Reply #4 on: October 28, 2007, 05:08:27 AM »
Why protest something that needs to be done. Drop the bomb already and be done with it.
Damn the Torpedoes! Full speed ahead! Adm. D. Farragut.

Started Atripla 8/18/06 and if I eat the right food when I take my meds, I get to go on a-trip-la.

Offline emeraldize

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Re: A Challenge
« Reply #5 on: October 28, 2007, 09:45:27 AM »
?

Offline CaptCarl

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Re: A Challenge
« Reply #6 on: October 28, 2007, 10:53:14 AM »
  Working on the campus of a University, I see and hear things regarding this very subject every day. Based upon what I experience, I've come to the following conclusions. The first is that a lot of the kids are against the war in Iraq. There is anti-war and anti-Bush graffiti everywhere, and when the students talk about it, they have some interesting perceptions about the whole thing. It seems that there is the feeling that protest is futile. That the Bush Admistration does not now, nor has it ever given a fuck about what the people of this country think about anything. There is a sense of disconnect and isolation from the government. The students that are politically active seem to focus their energy on Global Warming, and other environmental issues. I think that this is because they feel that this is something that they can actually do something about. There is also a small but vocal group that supports the War. They tend to be mostly male, though not exclusively. I have asked a few of these students why, if they really believe that the war is justified, are they not in the military fighting? The response is pretty much the same: "I have to go to college, I don't have time to join, otherwise I would" Seems a pretty lame argument for such a serious matter. They should put their money where their mouths are, as far as I'm concerned. But a lot of these kids come from affluent families, where "someone else" does the dirty work, and they seem to feel that they are exempt from pretty much having to do anything.
   Sadly enough though, the majority of students seem not to care at all. The spend their days going to class, riding their skateboards, and immersing themselves in the electronic haze of various cell phones, iPods, PDA's, video games and anything else that will distract them from reality. The apathy is, at times, appalling.
   Sometimes I think that the only way to wake them up to the reality of the world they are about to enter into is to reinstate the Draft. If they had the reality of having to go into the military, and fight, maybe then they would take a closer look around them and protest. But until that day comes, I think that most of them will remain comfortable with their heads buried in the sand.

Capt.Carl (who thinks the saddest sight is that of kids in military uniforms riding their skateboards to the ROTC buildings. It underscores that fact that it's KIDS who are getting their asses shot off for no good reason)
The only thing I can do straight is shoot..

Offline david25luvit

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Re: A Challenge
« Reply #7 on: October 28, 2007, 11:03:45 AM »
It's true....there is no draft.  And for the past several years the US Government has relied on companies like Blackwater to take up the slack
since most Americans are opposed to war and yet do not want to wait up one day and find it in their front yard.  9/11 had a bigger impact on
us than we realize I suspect.....though most of us are against the war in Iraqi....and starting a new one in Iran....whether we want to admit it
or not....if the war on terrorism has to be fought.....we don't want it fought in our country.  Nor do we wish to be inconvenience by it.  Which
probably explains why we haven't even lowered our consumption of oil despite the rising cost.

There is a growing discontent in this country about the war in Iraqi.....and more people are speaking out.  But to think we could just walk away
from what we started in Iraqi would be irresponsible.  There would be a vaccum.  It's going to take years for us to get out of Iraqi....  at least
until the Iraqi government (such as it is) can take over...and maintain some semblance of stability.  How its going to end...no one knows for sure
but protest or not.....    The war is not going to end anytime soon.  If anything its going to get worse.  Considering the rhetoric we're hearing from
Washington these days about Iran and they're acquiring nuclear weapons.  Bush and Cheney are making a lot of noise on that subject.
 
However next years Presidential race may be the deciding factor as to if and when we leave Iraqi....
Everyone needs to vote...........
In Memory of
Raymond David McRae III
Nov. 25, 1972- Oct. 15, 2004
I miss him terribly..........

Offline bear60

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Re: A Challenge
« Reply #8 on: October 28, 2007, 11:17:34 AM »
The largest Peace demonstration in Philadelphia since the first days of the war in 2003, was held yesterday. Estimates of 2000 people. And it was nasty rainy.
According to the paper today, there were also protests in Boston, New York, Chicago, Los Angeles and San Franciso, Seattle, Salt Lake and New Orleans, Orlando and Jonesborough, Tenn.         
(I dont get Jonesborough, Tenn...but hey)
Poz Bear Type in Philadelphia

Offline pozniceguy

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Re: A Challenge
« Reply #9 on: October 28, 2007, 01:28:10 PM »
I think the whole subject needs a real dose of current events reality check.... There are always somethings that are not popular at the moment..war or any version of conflict has been one of those issues many times in past years  but so have busing, variations on school choice, funding for "universal medicine" and the list goes on and on.......only a few actually present a critical issue of "national security".....That often misused couplet  has been derided, abused, and twisted to many ends but that doesn't make it any less a real issue...There is virtually universal ( world wide ) agreement that the current issues of terrorist activity is unacceptable......the way to stop ..or at least minimize this pending threat is to do some thing that denies the terrorists or potential terrorists the opportunity to promote their cause.....  at least one thing to do is to be sure to root it out at the origins..when you can find them....lacking that you root out who supports their cause in a practical way  ( money, weapons etc...)
There is no 100% guarantee that any method used will be totally successful..armed conflict will continue to be one of the methods..other methods used in parallel may be useful as well,  denying the use of a "free press" to these groups has not been fully explored but should be...The hotly contested "profiling" can be a useful tool in spite of the drama surrounding it use...so any one just "protesting" against Bush or any other Politician has their head in a very lofty place when it needs. to be grounded in realities of this world.   For the record  I endorse universal military service...it gives everyone a stake in the security of this country.....the volunteer force has been very successful in dealing with traditional conflict but with the type of "hot spot" conflicts we seem to be endlessly engaged in I thin k a much larger commitment is needed from the total population

Opinions?????

Nick
remember the good times...honor the past but don't live there
Le stelle la notte sono grandie luminose, nel cuore profondo del Texas

Offline BB

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Re: A Challenge
« Reply #10 on: October 28, 2007, 01:52:08 PM »
Yup, most American people as well as most people from any other country, are against the war because war is a terrible waste in many ways. But, the one thing almost every American fears is what Israel is going through. Fighting the war on American soil is out of the question, so taking the fight to the terrorists is the only option. If the knuckle head in Iran wants to make nukes to use against America then bomb the poop out of the nuke facilities in Iran. Besides, does anyone with any brains honestly believe Israel will sit back and let Iran develop nukes. Israel, America, Britain and any other democracy are targets of the terrorists. Why wait for the bomb to go off in our back yard. If diplomacy fails then use option "B"-omb.
Damn the Torpedoes! Full speed ahead! Adm. D. Farragut.

Started Atripla 8/18/06 and if I eat the right food when I take my meds, I get to go on a-trip-la.

Offline perspiry

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Re: A Challenge
« Reply #11 on: October 28, 2007, 03:54:00 PM »
"distracted by American Idol" sums it up succinctly.

The protesters of the 60s and 70s are parents and grandparents of today's generation.  If you ask 10 people their reaction to those 60s/70s protesters the majority response will be negative.   Protest today is disloyal, un-American, unpatriotic, etc.   Young people (and many others) have often thought their voice doesn't count and changing apathy into interest is a steep uphill battle, especially since in the Bush era their voices really don't count.  Many if not most college kids are praying they'll be able to get a decent job and won't be downsized every few years like their parents have been.  Instilling that level of fear into the general population is an amazingly effective distraction from other matters.

JA
If I'd been thinking I would have chosen Tangina as my forum moniker.

Offline Dachshund

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Re: A Challenge
« Reply #12 on: October 30, 2007, 09:39:51 AM »
Warning contains graphic images:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcaIsPMtwhQ

Offline perspiry

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Re: A Challenge
« Reply #13 on: November 03, 2007, 01:26:43 PM »
Yup, most American people as well as most people from any other country, are against the war because war is a terrible waste in many ways. But, the one thing almost every American fears is what Israel is going through. Fighting the war on American soil is out of the question, so taking the fight to the terrorists is the only option. ...

Taking the fight to the terrorists would have meant sending more troops into Afghanistan after 9/11 when bin Laden's location might have been found.  Or even sending troops into Saudi Arabia where 15 of 19 terrorists came from and which has, among other resources, the Wahhabi cult, containing many very wealthy Saudi Islamic fundamentalists who continue funding terrorist efforts unchecked. 

The overwhelming preponderance of evidence, before and after the invasion, clearly shows Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11, had no WMD or other weapons representing a threat to the USA, and was not the breeding ground for terrorists as claimed by Bush and Company (that distinction goes to our ally, Saudi Arabia, which refused and refuses to allow the USA to do anything within its borders).   

The invasion of Iraq insures further attacks on U.S. soil; not the other way around.  9/11 created a brief moment when the right moves and decisions by our President could have changed history for the better but instead we hear proud proclamations about the "first war of the 21st century" from our "war President" as if that is a source of pride.   Bush has done more to increase the number of terrorists than Osama ever could have dreamed of himself.  The USA will pay the price in many ways for years and decades, from economic (the high cost of gasoline isn't a coincidence, over 20,000 U.S. soldiers have been injured, many maimed and crippled, hundreds of billions of dollars desperately needed here have been wasted) to human (3000 dead and 20,000 wounded U.S. soldiers, two hundred thousand or more Iraqi civiians killed, an increase in dislike of the USA around the globe) to national security (terrorists can enter the USA as easily as before and pull off another 9/11 type attack), and other costs. 

JA
If I'd been thinking I would have chosen Tangina as my forum moniker.

Offline BB

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Re: A Challenge
« Reply #14 on: November 03, 2007, 03:27:51 PM »
Come on perspiry. Look at Israel. How many times have they tried to work out a treaty only to have some terrorist group kill more Israeli children or explode another bomb in a café. Terrorists don't stop and don't need any rational reason to kill innocent people. Terrorists are murderers. Further, WMDs killed how many people in Iraq by delivering gas or chemicals. Let's see, didn't Saddam also invaded another country, start numerous oil well fires and pay money to families of any suicide bomber?

And what is this about "the right moves" by America or President Bush. Do you have any idea how much aid in money, food, equipment, support and other goods the US gives out every year? The world needs to attack terrorism, not negotiate with them.
Damn the Torpedoes! Full speed ahead! Adm. D. Farragut.

Started Atripla 8/18/06 and if I eat the right food when I take my meds, I get to go on a-trip-la.

Offline Dachshund

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Re: A Challenge
« Reply #15 on: November 03, 2007, 03:59:44 PM »
For the last time, Iraq did not harbor terrorists until AFTER we attacked them. Those chemicals Saddam used were supplied by Western Nations including the United States so maybe we should bomb France and Germany first. We supported Iraq in their war against our enemy Iran and then went to war with Iraq after they invaded Kuwait. Iran supported us when we attacked the Taliban in Afghanistan after 9/11, and your chance of being blown up by a terrorist are about nil. You're much more likely to come down with aids. There will be no Caliphate established in Cleveland in your lifetime. You would be better off worrying about enjoying clean air and water in your future. Death to America will come in the form of gay marriage.

I won't even bother trying to explain the Palestinian/Israeli Conflict.

p.s. Musharraf just declared Marshall Law in Pakistan.

Offline perspiry

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Re: A Challenge
« Reply #16 on: November 03, 2007, 11:36:27 PM »
Come on perspiry. Look at Israel. How many times have they tried to work out a treaty only to have some terrorist group kill more Israeli children or explode another bomb in a café.

Comparing the USA to Israel is like comparing Guantanamo Bay to Buchenwald, an almost meaningless analogy.  The history and situations of the 2 countries couldn't be more different.  I have always been and am a strong supporter of Israel but, like a large number of Israelis, I am not happy with many actions of and, yes, even atrocities committed by Israel's leaders.  The USA has not had to deal with Canadian or Mexican terrorists for 200 years that I'm aware of.   Israel has dealt with regional opposition since it was created.  We dealt with the regional opposition by killing most of them and confining the decimated remainder to reservations.  But now they're all rich as thieves because they have legal gambling on their reservations and all are happy campers. 

Quote
Terrorists don't stop and don't need any rational reason to kill innocent people. Terrorists are murderers.

Agreed.  Saddam brutally murdered over 300,000 Iraqis in his 20+ year regime.  BushCo conducts business as usual and several thousand innocent Americans and at least two hundred thousand innocent Iraqi men, women, and children have been killed (possibly 2 or 3 times that number http://online.wsj.com/public/article/SB116052896787288831-8l5AMVpCdg07M3w6XdmTXoPuzno_20061109.html?mod=tff_main_tff_top).  Bush towers over Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden as a terrorist.

Quote
Further, WMDs killed how many people in Iraq by delivering gas or chemicals.

Virtually none unless you have a very narrow definition for a weapon of mass destruction.  It took Saddam over 20 years to kill 300,000 and the USA has killed almost as many or more in 4 years.  Neither used WMDs to do the killing.

Quote
Let's see, didn't Saddam also invaded another country, start numerous oil well fires and pay money to families of any suicide bomber?

Uh, just when did Saddam's invasion and oil fires occur and what relevance have they to the 21st century?  After the Gulf War sanctions against Iraq virtually crippled the economy and caused widespread hardship for many Iraqis.  Saddam continued to live the high life with his friends up until 2003 but he didn't have money to re-build his stockpile. That fact has been accepted by everyone except Bush and his supporters.  No WMD were found, no chemicals, no biological weapons, no bio-weapons labs, no bomb factories, NOTHING!!**  The USA invaded Iraq in 2003 and NO EVIDENCE supporting the claim of WMDs has been found, not one shred.  **

Quote
And what is this about "the right moves" by America or President Bush. Do you have any idea how much aid in money, food, equipment, support and other goods the US gives out every year? The world needs to attack terrorism, not negotiate with them.

Again, what is the relevance of your observation to the Iraq war?  Because we dole out money to countries we've probably stolen resources from doesn't mean we have the right to govern them or tell them what to do (or assassinate democratically elected leaders because they aren't sufficiently pro-USA, but that doesn't stop us).  As Dachshund pointed out the USA threw billions at Saddam when we thought it was in our interests (just as we threw millions at bin Laden) and the USA is greatly to blame for Saddam's weapons build-up prior to the Gulf War.  Invading Iraq created more terrorists and besides destroying the country did little else.  IMHO anyone who believes the war has made the USA safer belongs in a lunatic asylum.


**
I realize the source of this reference, wikipedia, isn't authoritative but I'm too lazy to find another at the moment http://www.reference.com/browse/wiki/Weapon_of_mass_destruction:

"In a separate study published in 2005, a group of researchers assessed the effects reports and retractions in the media had on people’s memory regarding the search for WMD in Iraq during the 2003 Iraq War. The study focused on populations in two coalition countries (Australia and USA) and one opposed to the war (Germany). Results showed that US citizens generally did not correct initial misconceptions regarding WMD, even following disconfirmation; Australian and German citizens were more responsive to retractions. Dependence on the initial source of information led to a substantial minority of Americans exhibiting false memory that WMD were indeed discovered, while they were not. This led to three conclusions:

   1. The repetition of tentative news stories, even if they are subsequently disconfirmed, can assist in the creation of false memories in a substantial proportion of people.
   2. Once information is published, its subsequent correction does not alter people's beliefs unless they are suspicious about the motives underlying the events the news stories are about.
   3. When people ignore corrections, they do so irrespective of how certain they are that the corrections occurred.

A poll conducted between June and September of 2003 asked people whether they thought WMD had been discovered in Iraq since the war ended. They were also asked which media sources they relied upon. Those who obtained their news primarily from Fox News were three times as likely to believe that evidence confirming WMD had been discovered in Iraq than those who relied on PBS and NPR for their news, and one third more likely than those who primarily watched CBS.

Media source    Respondents believing evidence of WMD had been found in Iraq since the war ended
Fox    33%
CBS    23%
NBC    20%
CNN    20%
ABC    19%
Print media    17%
PBS-NPR    11%
Based on a series of polls taken from June-September 2003."



Let's not forget the Iraq war ended on May 1, 2003, as declared by President Bush.  We're only dealing with post-war insurgencies which took BushCo completely by surprise even though he'd been given numerous documents and oral briefings predicting exactly such an outcome. 

JA

"What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans, and the homeless whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name or totalitarianism or the holy name of liberty and democracy?"  Gandhi
If I'd been thinking I would have chosen Tangina as my forum moniker.

Offline BB

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Re: A Challenge
« Reply #17 on: November 05, 2007, 05:21:12 AM »
You two are funny. Terrorists can come from any country and can get whatever papers needed to appear so. Another major difficulty is finding the killers and distinguishing them from innocent people. Some of the ways to stop terrorism is to stop the supply of weapons and disrupt their support and lives. If a country wants to support terrorism go after the country or the leaders, which is what this war is about. Do either of you really believe you're hearing all that is going on? No one wants to invade a country, but sometimes that is the only way. There are also many ways to undermine a government without invading the country. We simply don't hear about that stuff. I'm somewhat surprised the nut in Iran is still breathing but there is still time to deal with him.

You guys really don't think we're just leaving the people and country in ruins do you. The US is also building an infrastructure and helping the people to reestablish their lives, but you don't hear about that part. You can believe the news media if you'd like, but remember that death, suffering and sensationalism sells. All you're ever going to see is what the media wants you to see.

I happen to own and enjoy shooting firearms and believe every person should be able to protect themselves with firearms. Numerous studies also support a drop in certain types of crime when the people have the right to carry firearms. But, you won't ever hear or read that info in any newspaper or news report. The media sells more papers and gets more attention by supporting the negative side of firearms. When was the last time anyone heard of an elderly couple stopping a home invasion by using a firearm. When have you heard about a gay person, woman or anyone stopping an assault simply by brandishing a firearm in self defense. This happens every day and probably more often than certain types of successful crimes occur. The media unfortunately is bias and will only report what sells.

One more thing. WMD's need not kill millions to be considered a danger. Neither do these weapons need to be able to reach our country by means of a missile to be a threat. Many countries own war machines that are WMDs, but those countries only use them for self defense. What makes the difference is the leaders of that country and their willingness and desire to put them to use. I doubt anyone would be concerned if Iran only wanted to build nuke power plants to support a power gird. Unfortunately for everyone, a certain leader in Iran wants to make nuke bombs to use against the US, Israel and whoever else his demented little mind hates.

Damn the Torpedoes! Full speed ahead! Adm. D. Farragut.

Started Atripla 8/18/06 and if I eat the right food when I take my meds, I get to go on a-trip-la.

Offline Dachshund

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Re: A Challenge
« Reply #18 on: November 05, 2007, 06:59:48 AM »


You guys really don't think we're just leaving the people and country in ruins do you. The US is also building an infrastructure and helping the people to reestablish their lives, but you don't hear about that part. You can believe the news media if you'd like, but remember that death, suffering and sensationalism sells. All you're ever going to see is what the media wants you to see.


Damn media! I'm glad you're able to see through the bias and provide us with the truth. In fact, now that you have shown me the light with all your facts and statistics and stuff it makes perfect sense. Thanks to that brand spanking new infrastructure we've provided I'm going to change my vote for AMG to either Baghdad or Kabul. We should have no trouble booking a hotel since two million people have fled Iraq since the war started. Maybe you could suggest some sight seeing trips outside of the Green Zone. You are right about guns though, they sure came in handy if you happen to be a Sunni living in the Shia section of town. Crime rates are reduced dramatically when you ethnically cleanse a town of who used to be your neighbors. Oil revenues up, power grid functioning, guns everywhere, and a new constitution based on the Koran, sounds like Babylon would be a perfect choice for the next AMG. Course, since we bombed Afghanistan back into the stone age, again, we could have some fun with Afghanistan's leading export. Either choice, Baghdad or Kabul, is a win-win for AMG. Personally I'm leaning toward Kabul, I hear the Kabul Hilton has an all you can eat shishkabob night on Wednesday followed by a wet burqua contest.

edited to add an example of that damn liberal media bias:

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/227/story/21067.html
« Last Edit: November 05, 2007, 07:56:54 AM by Dachshund »

Offline Dachshund

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Re: A Challenge
« Reply #19 on: November 05, 2007, 08:15:22 PM »
A perfect terrorist storm may be brewing in Pakistan. When asked to choose the nation that is most likely to become the next al Qaeda stronghold, more experts chose Pakistan than any other country, including Iraq. Osama bin Laden reportedly remains at large along Pakistan’s mountainous border with Afghanistan, where al Qaeda is also regrouping; the country’s intelligence service is said to be still cooperating with radical Islamist elements; and President Pervez Musharraf’s political future seems increasingly imperiled. These developments would not be as worrisome had the experts not also said that Pakistan is the country most likely to transfer nuclear technology to terrorists in the next three to five years. Together, it’s a terrifying combination.

But if there is a wide consensus about the dangers that Pakistan poses, there is very little agreement about what to do about it. A modest number of the index’s experts, fewer than 1 in 3, favors threatening Pakistan with sanctions. Yet about the same number support increasing U.S. aid to the country. Such a muddled response underscores the puzzle that Pakistan presents to American policymakers. What is clear is that the experts do not favor more of the same: More than half of those surveyed believe the current U.S. policy toward Pakistan is having a negative impact on U.S. national security. Getting the strategy right could be critical if the world is to keep those dark clouds from forming.

Offline DCGUY2007

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Re: A Challenge
« Reply #20 on: November 06, 2007, 02:51:10 AM »
I agree with you "bear" where is the protest?  Just last month a previous coworker called and told me her son who is in the military lost his leg and is now in Walter Reed hospital. I even see more young men in the DC area with missing legs.Some of them are at my gym. They arein the military and in their early twenties. Just babies. If these young men were related to every single person  in the USA, someones dad, brother son then we would have a lot more protest. Why don't we make it mandatory that if congress and the President votes for a war then all their children should have to somehow serve in the war. Think how quickly this war would end if this were the case. Hell it would have never even gotten started if this were the case. I like Sally Fields comment "If mothers were running the country  there would be no G..dam war!"

Also I hear that we can't just leave. Well we can ask for more assistance from other countries. It is in the entire worlds best interest to make sure this area becomes stabilized. We are basically carrying this war alone. It also isn't effecting enough people so that is why there isn't as much protest.  This situation is very very very sad all the way around. So many civilian lives lost in Iraq. So many American mens lives lost. If anything now there will probably be even more terrorism.

I totally support our troops, My dad was in the military for thirty years. I just think this war in Iraq is getting no where and  it should have never happened. Where are the weapons of mass destruction? Which is the reason we supposedly got into this situation in the first place.

I also agree with Perspiry and Abqcarls  comments "Invading Iraq created more terrorists and besides destroying the country did little else.".....

"There is also a small but vocal group that supports the War. They tend to be mostly male, though not exclusively. I have asked a few of these students why, if they really believe that the war is justified, are they not in the military fighting? The response is pretty much the same: "I have to go to college, I don't have time to join, otherwise I would" Seems a pretty lame argument for such a serious matter. They should put their money where their mouths are, as far as I'm concerned."
« Last Edit: November 06, 2007, 03:06:27 AM by DCGUY2007 »

Offline BB

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Re: A Challenge
« Reply #21 on: November 06, 2007, 07:18:10 AM »
Dachshund, might I suggest a very friendly city in the wonderful country of Iran. The people of Tehran should give you a warm and friendly welcome. Please don't forget to bring some gifts for your new friends; a case of Christian bibles, some American flags, and maybe some American dictionaries just in case the Iran people aren't fluent in English. Oh, and don't forget your camera, we will want to see lots of pics when you get back!  ;D

If there is anything else I might help you with, please hesitate to ask.  ;)

P.S. If you happen to find things aren't working out very well for yourself over in Tehran, don't worry. Simply do what you do best, bury your head in the sand. They have lots of sand over there so you should at least be comfortable with your accommodations.  :D
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Offline Dachshund

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Re: A Challenge
« Reply #22 on: November 06, 2007, 08:13:47 AM »

P.S. If you happen to find things aren't working out very well for yourself over in Tehran, don't worry. Simply do what you do best, bury your head in the sand. They have lots of sand over there so you should at least be comfortable with your accommodations.  :D

Oh BB we know you won't be going to Iraq or Afghanistan soon to help out in the reconstruction you talk about. No need to, they already have plenty of braying asses in the Middle East. ;D Of course by asses I mean donkeys. ;)

p.s. here's some reconstruction footage for you. :-*

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SfSwS4OO51w
« Last Edit: November 06, 2007, 08:23:12 AM by Dachshund »

Offline perspiry

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Re: A Challenge
« Reply #23 on: November 06, 2007, 10:21:25 AM »
Dachshund, might I suggest a very friendly city in the wonderful country of Iran. The people of Tehran should give you a warm and friendly welcome. Please don't forget to bring some gifts for your new friends; a case of Christian bibles, some American flags, and maybe some American dictionaries just in case the Iran people aren't fluent in English.

Why would a Muslim necessarily want a Christian bible?  Do you have a Koran?  Do you have an Iraq flag?  Do you speak any of the numerous Arabic languages or dialects?  Why should these "gifts" be forced upon an Iraqi?  We're not openly declaring Iraq a conquered country to be added to our empire, are we?

Whenever a Bush supporter can't find a reason for the atrocities committed the old red "what we don't know about" herring is tossed out as if we naive citizens can never understand the complex issues our brilliant leaders deal with.  Bullshit alert!!  To justify going to war, risking the lives of American men and women who nobly enlist to protect the USA, there can be no secrets hidden behind outright lies (you have yet to deny Bush's stated reasons for invading Iraq have all proven invalid and, worse yet, were known to be invalid).  As a patriot you should be furious and disgusted over 3000 Americans have died for nothing and over 20,000 soldiers seriously wounded fighting in a war that never should have started. 

We're going to take care of that bozo on Iran, huh?  How?  Start another war?  Assassinate him?  Drop da bomb?  What decade do you live in?  The global hegemony of the USA has been disintegrating for the last 50+ years and we can no longer bully the rest of the world and act as if we own it.  Such jingoistic fascism doesn't work in the 21st century.  The USA is one player of many and we better get used to it or watch as the world passes us by.  This war has helped weaken the USA economically (even the Maple Menace's currency is surpassing the U.S.'s ever-weakening dollar) and caused billions of people to have less respect for our country (and we weren't as well-loved as we liked to think we were -- children around the world, deprived of the education we receive demonstrating what a great country the USA is, unfortunately don't realize the USA is always right).

DCGUY says:
Quote
Also I hear that we can't just leave. Well we can ask for more assistance from other countries. It is in the entire worlds best interest to make sure this area becomes stabilized. We are basically carrying this war alone...

We can't pack up and leave now because Iraq would collapse even further into chaos and civil war and the government that resulted could easily become the international security threat Bush swore it was five years ago.  The USA doesn't want nosy parkers at the UN interfering and our allies, who can be practically counted on one hand, are not endangering more of their soldiers while the USA unilaterally calls the shots.  The next President will have to work with other world leaders and that commie-fronted UN to help stabilize Iraq, if that's possible.   

I can't even respond to assertions the USA is rebuilding the infrastructure (unless you mean oil) and helping the people of Iraq regain a semblance of their former lives.  I've already peed in 2 pairs of pants just reading the declaration.   I know I haven't read about that work because I haven't read any new fiction in years.

JA

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Offline Dachshund

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Re: A Challenge
« Reply #24 on: November 06, 2007, 02:16:56 PM »
Now, the Visitors' Guide -- written in 2006, and posted on the website of the U.S. military's "Multi-National Security Transition Command" -- claims to be "written by tourists for the tourist."  But the two authors aren't just Green Zone passers-by.

One of the writers, a "Richard H. Houghton III," was the acting country director in Iraq of the International Republican Institute.  That's an unofficial arm of the Republican party, chaired by John McCain, which focuses on democracy-promotion abroad. "A former U.S. Marine Colonel, Mr. Houghton, when not making the world safe for democracy, enjoys rodeo and weightlifting," the Guide says.  The other author, Patrick J. McDonald, "completed a one year tour of duty with the 448th Civil Affairs Battalion... He is Assistant to the Secretary of State for the State of Washington and is a confirmed war tourist."

Captain Matt Tompkins, currently in Iraq on his second tour of duty, is not at all amused by Houghton and McDonald's piece of literature:

Military tourism... was one of my biggest pet peeves when I was here last time -- in the Green Zone -- so I couldn't help but be disgusted when I stumbled upon this. The mentality associated with walking around this nation like it's your own little sight-seeing trip stuns me. You look at the backgrounds of the authors - a CA [civil affairs] guy and an NGO [non-government organization] guy - and you just expect better of them.  [Since those two groups are supposed to be the most sensitive to local concerns -- ed.] Instead, every local they saw on their sight-seeing wound up seeing the ultimate in ugly American tourists. How can we claim any credibility in anything we do when they see that this is how seriously we take the responsibility we have assumed by doing what we as a nation have done here, and are claiming to do now.

I suppose it could be argued that by trying to explain the historical relevance of these sights, the authors are actually encouraging cultural understanding. It could be argued, that is, until you read tidbits like the fact that the 14 July Bridge was named for the 1985 revolution that overthrew the Hashemite monarchy. Yeah, that's right guys -- the Ba'ath Party finally thought to themselves "Hey, you know what? We're in the middle of a war with Iran, we've been running the country for almost 30 years, let's overthrow the monarchy!"  [The revolution was in '58 -- ed.]

Thanks for the efforts you so very clearly expended in your time here, guys. There's nothing like a little understanding.

On the bright side, maybe the Guide will make the Green Zone seem so inviting, it'll encourage some more diplomats to volunteer for duty in Baghdad
.


http://blog.wired.com/defense/2007/11/green-zone-tour.html
« Last Edit: November 06, 2007, 02:22:16 PM by Dachshund »

Offline pozattitude

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Re: A Challenge
« Reply #25 on: November 06, 2007, 02:30:47 PM »
bottom line...the American people don't give a shit, as long as we can go shopping.
people feel alienated by all politicians, let's face it, what has this democrat congress done except given in to all of Bush' wishes?
If we want change we will have to start up grass roots movements.  Until the people rise up and make the fucking politicians know ENOUGH IS ENOUGH, this shit crap will go on indefinitely.
Personally I am disgusted with anything political.  I hate the current administration (even before Bush stole Florida in 2000) and I am disgusted with congress who talks a lot of shit but when it is time to get down to business they just put their tales between their legs and say AMEN to Bush.
I say overthrow the government and lets start over from scratch

Rich(who is just on a rant right now)
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Offline CaptCarl

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Re: A Challenge
« Reply #26 on: November 06, 2007, 08:12:59 PM »
[quote
I say overthrow the government and lets start over from scratch



I agree totally. Anarchy has never seemed more appealing...
The only thing I can do straight is shoot..

 


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