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Author Topic: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE  (Read 59746 times)

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Offline David_CA

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Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
« Reply #100 on: November 01, 2007, 11:10:55 AM »
David,

All due respect your question is based on the assumption (at least it reads that way) that the AMG is an American event and why don't the non-Americans start planning their own?  I thought the AMG stood for AIDSMEDS GATHERING and therefore is for all members of AIDSMEDS?

Why should the non-U.S. members be asked to not participate in the planning the same way as the U.S. members when we are discussiing the next AMG or suggested that they plan their own event?

And I need to state while I understand about the costs - why is that only considered a viable issue for the Americans?  For three years now the non-U.S. members have gone to considerable cost to travel to North America, why are U.S. citizens not thinking that it works both ways?


Iggy, with all due respect, how much work are YOU personally willing to put into planning this?  Are you even planning on attending (just curious)?  The majority of members of this board, I believe, are in the US.  For the maximum number of people to attend, it had to be held in North America.  If I lived in Europe, believe me, I would try and get something going over there.  I've seen others bring up the point before, but not much seems to come from it.  Why?  I realize the situation, financial and legal, that this places on others, especially from Europe.  Why has nothing been started there?  Why? 

David
Black Friday 03-03-2006
03-23-06 CD4 359 @27.4% VL 75,938
06-01-06 CD4 462 @24.3% VL > 100,000
08-15-06 CD4 388 @22.8% VL >  "
10-21-06 CD4 285 @21.9% VL >  "
  Atripla started 12-01-2006
01-08-07 CD4 429 @26.8% VL 1872!
05-08-07 CD4 478 @28.1% VL 740
08-03-07 CD4 509 @31.8% VL 370
11-06-07 CD4 570 @30.0% VL 140
02-21-08 CD4 648 @32.4% VL 600
05-19-08 CD4 695 @33.1% VL < 48 undetectable!
08-21-08 CD4 725 @34.5%
11-11-08 CD4 672 @39.5%
02-11-09 CD4 773 @36.8%
05-11-09 CD4 615 @36.2%
08-19-09 CD4 770 @38.5%
11-19-09 CD4 944 @33.7%
02-17-10 CD4 678 @39.9%  
06-03-10 CD4 768 @34.9%
09-21-10 CD4 685 @40.3%
01-10-11 CD4 908 @36.3%
05-23-11 CD4 846 @36.8% VL 80
02-13-12 CD4 911 @41.4% VL<20
You must be the change you want to see in the world.  Mahatma Gandhi

Offline Iggy

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Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
« Reply #101 on: November 01, 2007, 11:16:27 AM »
Iggy, with all due respect, how much work are YOU personally willing to put into planning this?  Are you even planning on attending (just curious)?  The majority of members of this board, I believe, are in the US.  For the maximum number of people to attend, it had to be held in North America.  If I lived in Europe, believe me, I would try and get something going over there.  I've seen others bring up the point before, but not much seems to come from it.  Why?  I realize the situation, financial and legal, that this places on others, especially from Europe.  Why has nothing been started there?  Why? 

David

David - How much work have you put in planning the last one?

Yes. I'm planning on going. 

Not sure what any of those points though mean to asking non-U.S. citizens to either commit a fraud or start their own event as the U.S. citizens care more about costs.


Offline englishgirl

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Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
« Reply #102 on: November 01, 2007, 11:17:35 AM »
what this is telling me is that some people would rather us europeans would just fuck off and hold our own amg. sorry but i thought we were all meant to be trying to be TOGETHER.

it is only a few hundred dollars difference in price between a US and a canadian destination. obviously some people are prepared to sell the rights of foreign poz board members down the river for such a small amount.

i understand that many people have the need of financial assistance to get to amg, and think that the option suggested by david is the most realistic:
At this point, I don't see a lot of ways around this, except for a Canadian location and LOTS of fund raising to assist others to attend

I realize the situation, financial and legal, that this places on others, especially from Europe.  Why has nothing been started there?  Why? 
oh, ok, i'm beginning to realise that us europeans are viewed as crashing the american party. sorry about that.

again, i refer people to my thread on the matter http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=16816.new#new

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Offline gerry

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Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
« Reply #103 on: November 01, 2007, 11:22:22 AM »
David - How much work have you put in planning the last one?

Yes. I'm planning on going. 

Not sure what any of those points though mean to asking non-U.S. citizens to either commit a fraud or start their own event as the U.S. citizens care more about costs.



Iggy,

David was a very important part of the Grants Committee for the SF AMG.  Just thought you ought to know that.

Gerry

Offline David_CA

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Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
« Reply #104 on: November 01, 2007, 11:29:07 AM »
englishgirl,

I didn't say that I didn't want you to attend or that you were crashing a party.  I was trying to get the point across that, if something was important to me, as having a European AMG is to many, I'd start planning one that many could attend... due to financial or legal restrictions.  Canada is still more expensive to you guys than, say, Amsterdam.  Even if the US didn't have the BS restrictions, it would still be out of reach for many Europeans.  That's all that I meant, and I'm disappointed that you would even read negativity into my post after meeting us in SF.

At this point, I really couldn't care less where it is.  If we can attend, we will.  I'll be willing to assist however I can.

David
Black Friday 03-03-2006
03-23-06 CD4 359 @27.4% VL 75,938
06-01-06 CD4 462 @24.3% VL > 100,000
08-15-06 CD4 388 @22.8% VL >  "
10-21-06 CD4 285 @21.9% VL >  "
  Atripla started 12-01-2006
01-08-07 CD4 429 @26.8% VL 1872!
05-08-07 CD4 478 @28.1% VL 740
08-03-07 CD4 509 @31.8% VL 370
11-06-07 CD4 570 @30.0% VL 140
02-21-08 CD4 648 @32.4% VL 600
05-19-08 CD4 695 @33.1% VL < 48 undetectable!
08-21-08 CD4 725 @34.5%
11-11-08 CD4 672 @39.5%
02-11-09 CD4 773 @36.8%
05-11-09 CD4 615 @36.2%
08-19-09 CD4 770 @38.5%
11-19-09 CD4 944 @33.7%
02-17-10 CD4 678 @39.9%  
06-03-10 CD4 768 @34.9%
09-21-10 CD4 685 @40.3%
01-10-11 CD4 908 @36.3%
05-23-11 CD4 846 @36.8% VL 80
02-13-12 CD4 911 @41.4% VL<20
You must be the change you want to see in the world.  Mahatma Gandhi

Offline englishgirl

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Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
« Reply #105 on: November 01, 2007, 11:41:53 AM »
I didn't say that I didn't want you to attend or that you were crashing a party.  I was trying to get the point across that, if something was important to me, as having a European AMG is to many, I'd start planning one that many could attend... due to financial or legal restrictions.  Canada is still more expensive to you guys than, say, Amsterdam.  Even if the US didn't have the BS restrictions, it would still be out of reach for many Europeans. 
david youre misunderstanding what i have said throughout this thread. it isnt my objective to have a european amg, it is my objective to have amg in a country which meets the following:
legal entry for poz people
fairly cheap
fairly easy to get to

that is why i have only ever suggested canada and mexico.

i have also stated repeatedly that i personally would be prepared to fork out a lot more in order to get to canada because i know that so many americans couldnt afford to come to europe cos i thought the whole point was meant to be that we tried to be TOGETHER.

as far as cost goes, i cant think of any europeans who have specifically stated that they wouldnt go to canada cos it's too expensive.

PLEASE can we all sort out whether or not the US should even be considered as a destination? either people care whether we foreigners can come or not. simple as. can we not sort that out instead of bickering amongst ourselves about which continent it's on? i'm disappointed nearly to the point of giving up entirely.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2007, 11:49:17 AM by englishgirl »
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Offline Iggy

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Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
« Reply #106 on: November 01, 2007, 11:45:41 AM »
Iggy,

David was a very important part of the Grants Committee for the SF AMG.  Just thought you ought to know that.

Gerry

Gerry,  Thank you for letting me know that as I was previously unaware...yet this knowledge greatly surprises me based off of David's my understanding the greater issue.

Surely those who understand that the AMG works to collect donations for the board to partipate must also understand that to suggest that Europeans plan their own event would then be either asking board members who wish to donate funds to then choose between two groups?  Or is there a suggestion that only he US AMG be open for donations.

If help is needed in the AMG's I'm available, but don't see it as any answer or any releveance to the basic question we are facing here.

Offline thunter34

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Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
« Reply #107 on: November 01, 2007, 11:48:11 AM »
I just want to say to everyone to please be careful of how you paint my buddy, David.  I know in my heart his aim is not to be divisive or exclusionary.  If he is suggesting multiple AMG events, he is only - ONLY - trying to frame it in terms of making this type of event workable for the greatest number of people.

I have to say that I feel like such a dolt about this whole thing.  I was totally in the belief that this issue was supposed to have been resolved like AN ENTIRE YEAR AGO by the Bush camp.  In fact, I thought San Francisco was selected partly in celebration of that fact.  It wasn't until closer to the event that I became aware otherwise.

I've been staying largely out of these time and location vote threads because it's all rather early for me to conclusively say whether or not I will make it to the AMG wherever it may end up.  I most certainly want to, though.  But since my reading through these threads has been dicey, I'm not sure if it has already been suggested or not - but we COLLECTIVELY - ought to take this opportunity to raise our voices about this situation no matter where AMG(s) may end up being.  
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Offline englishgirl

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Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
« Reply #108 on: November 01, 2007, 11:51:16 AM »
PLEASE can we all sort out whether or not the US should even be considered as a destination? either people care whether we foreigners can come or not. simple as. can we not please sort that out instead of bickering amongst ourselves about which continent it's on? i'm disappointed nearly to the point of giving up entirely.

again: http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=16816.new#new
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"I'm not keen on the idea of the afterlife - not without knowing who else will be there and what the entertainment will be. Personally I'd rather just take a rest." Oscar Berger, PWA: Looking AIDS in the Face, 1996. RIP.

Offline sweetasmeli

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Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
« Reply #109 on: November 01, 2007, 11:59:11 AM »
I just want to say to everyone to please be careful of how you paint my buddy, David.  I know in my heart his aim is not to be divisive or exclusionary.

This is not aimed at David but it does need pointing out Tim, that with the US laws standing as they do, to even suggest or plan towards holding AMG events in the US is divisive and exclusionary by default.

Debra
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Offline sweetasmeli

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Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
« Reply #110 on: November 01, 2007, 12:01:37 PM »
PLEASE can we all sort out whether or not the US should even be considered as a destination?

And I second this.
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Offline englishgirl

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Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
« Reply #111 on: November 01, 2007, 12:03:42 PM »
I'm not sure if it has already been suggested or not - but we COLLECTIVELY - ought to take this opportunity to raise our voices about this situation no matter where AMG(s) may end up being.  
timmy, in another thread iggy suggested days ago that:
I think that should be there be two steps taken here.

An agreement that no official AMGs be held in a place that discriminates against poz people (indigenous or those wish to travel to it) and an official campaign to fight the discrimination in the U.S.

i cant believe we even have to discuss whether to hold it in the US or not
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Online Miss Philicia

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Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
« Reply #112 on: November 01, 2007, 12:16:27 PM »
I thought the AMG stood for AIDSMEDS GATHERING and therefore is for all members of AIDSMEDS?

Iggy, as much as I love and adore you this line of argument, while sounding nice in a rhetorical way and indeed a truthful statement on its surface, is disingenuous.  The either/or equation of US v. non-US location will prevent some AIDSmeds-ers from attending.  The question should really be, which scenario will allow the most to attend, or if there is a compromise, what location balance out the issue?

The bottom line is that someone is going to be left out.  It would be nice if we knew what numbers we were talking about.

Also for others in the thread, if we are to have the next AMG in Europe, are you in essence asking that NO future AMGs ever be held in the US?  Or are you willing to sit out every other year like some US residents will have to, as a fair compromise?
« Last Edit: November 01, 2007, 12:18:06 PM by philly267 »
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Offline englishgirl

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Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
« Reply #113 on: November 01, 2007, 12:18:55 PM »
Also for others in the thread, if we are to have the next AMG in Europe, are you in essence asking that NO future AMGs ever be held in the US?  Or are you willing to sit out every other year like some US residents will have to, as a fair compromise?
all i am asking is that we exclude countries which bar pozzies from entry and then vote on a location.
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"I'm not keen on the idea of the afterlife - not without knowing who else will be there and what the entertainment will be. Personally I'd rather just take a rest." Oscar Berger, PWA: Looking AIDS in the Face, 1996. RIP.

Offline thunter34

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Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
« Reply #114 on: November 01, 2007, 12:23:46 PM »
timmy, in another thread iggy suggested days ago....etc etc.

I suspected as much.  I shall investigate further.  Thanks.


And an EDIT:  I'm still kind of confused about this whole thing.  I thought this was the very reason the initial AMG's were held outside the U.S. (Montreal and Toronto).  Like I said, I thought SF was selected because this legal mess had been corrected.  If it hasn't, then wouldn't we be by default back at our original stance on this...holding outside the U.S?  In other words, looking at it this way, this isn't really a new argument being made, is it?  Sort of a recognition that this is still a proverbial elephant, right? 

Gosh, this whole thing really sucketh big time.  I really hope we can get this sorted.  I hate this tension way out here at the outset- because AMG in and of itself rocks.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2007, 12:27:35 PM by thunter34 »
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Online Miss Philicia

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Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
« Reply #115 on: November 01, 2007, 12:34:08 PM »
all i am asking is that we exclude countries which bar pozzies from entry and then vote on a location.

So no US location, ever -- correct?  Even if that means (hypothetically, in the absence of financial information with the fundraising) that means 10 US residents are prevented from attending versus 2 non-US residents not attending? 

It's important to be clear about this, and it's hard to do so unless someone REALLY involved on the fundraising side can present how this effects attendance numbers... how many can/cannot go based on location.

Otherwise we're all kind of shooting in the dark, a point I've tried to make over and over.
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Offline vokz

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Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
« Reply #116 on: November 01, 2007, 12:42:17 PM »
So no US location, ever -- correct? 

No, not if President Bush honours his commitment, of December 2006, to issue an executive order easing the restriction.

Then again, if you don't trust your President to honour his word ....

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2006/12/20061201-2.html
« Last Edit: November 01, 2007, 12:55:07 PM by vokz »

Offline The Canuck

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Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
« Reply #117 on: November 01, 2007, 12:48:42 PM »
Quote
I was totally in the belief that this issue was supposed to have been resolved like AN ENTIRE YEAR AGO by the Bush camp.

Is it possible the fact he committed to resolve this issue and although the law hasn't been officially changed yet, he could had give the '' order '' so-to-speak not to enforce it ?

Regards,

The Canuck

Offline englishgirl

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Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
« Reply #118 on: November 01, 2007, 12:53:48 PM »
philly, yes, figures would be interesting. anyone??

why cant we just decide year on year whether our consciences will allow us to select the US? because as timmy pointed out this was meant to have been resolved already by your govt, and that was the only reason that the last amg was held in the US, so surely the conversation was had a few years ago regarding whether amg should be held in the us while the ban still stood. why has that decision just been disregarded?

canuck: the info i have received from both US and UK sources say that the ban is still being enforced, sorry cant remember where from

in the meantime every member of these boards should be writing to their congressman to get the law changed. (and before you ask, my local MP has already said his bit)
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Offline woodshere

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Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
« Reply #119 on: November 01, 2007, 01:05:10 PM »
The original question posed to us was:

Time to vote for next years AMG destination!  I'm interested in everyone's TOP 2 choices.  I urge anyone who may have an interest in attending next year to please cast your vote.  

I was so jealous of those who attended AMG in San Fran.  But due to schedule conflicts I was unable to attend.  That is why I am so excited that a date might be selected soon that will enable me to get it on my calendar now, as I already have weddings booked for as late as November 2008.

For me to gain anything from an AMG I have to be able to attend and that depends primarily on what I can afford.  I am a very cheap traveller.  I was in SF in Aug for vacation and spent less that $650 on a roundtrip ticket and 6 nights lodging at a B&B.  It wasn't the Ritz but it was adequate.  So I voted for the two best choices for me.  My vote had nothing to do with how I feel about US policies, what is political or what is not.  And by no means should someone assume this about me
what this is telling me is that some people would rather us europeans would just fuck off and hold our own amg. sorry but i thought we were all meant to be trying to be TOGETHER.

it is only a few hundred dollars difference in price between a US and a canadian destination. obviously some people are prepared to sell the rights of foreign poz board members down the river for such a small amount.

i understand that many people have the need of financial assistance to get to amg, and think that the option suggested by david is the most realistic:oh, ok, i'm beginning to realise that us europeans are viewed as crashing the american party. sorry about that.

again, i refer people to my thread on the matter http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=16816.new#new


But after reading many of Iggy's posts, really thinking about community, and being united and supportive of one another, I think an annual AMG should not be held in the US.  Everyone has the option of developing their regional gatherings, but the grant's committee, coordinator and other AMG volunteers should concentrate on a single AMG.  Where AMG is held really makes no difference to me if I can afford to go I will.

Woods

Just a side note - a few hundred dollars does make a difference.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2007, 01:06:51 PM by woodshere »
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Offline thunter34

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Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
« Reply #120 on: November 01, 2007, 01:18:00 PM »
That's a most wonderful post, Woods. 
AIDS isn't for sissies.

Online Miss Philicia

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Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
« Reply #121 on: November 01, 2007, 01:21:17 PM »
I would like to request that the Grants Committee present projected finances for US/Canada/Europe locations, how much money would be expected to be raised for these 3 scenarios, and how this translates into how many people can attend.

Keep in mind it's NOT just the po' folks at issue, the location will greatly impact how much money is raised.  I don't wish to offend our non-US board members, but I've gotten the feeling that most of the grant money raised is by US members, probably because they make up a greater percentage on the board (and also because the Euros are spending more to travel to North America of course, but we're also talking about less in numbers).

Basically I want to know, and I think it's important for the discussion, that for every location outside of the US, how does that impact fundraising and how does that translate into how many less can attend?

Let's be quite clear, EACH location decision will impact someone, albeit for different reasons.  There's a lot of overly emotional points being made here and in the other thread, with little to no actual understanding of the financial considerations -- and yes, that IS a reality.  I'm all for appropriate political considerations, but I'm also a very pragmatic person.  I just think it should be clear what we're talking about and in the absence of this information I find it hard to arrive at any consensus.
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline Cliff

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Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
« Reply #122 on: November 01, 2007, 01:41:11 PM »
By my count, Amsterdam is in the lead, and by a significant margin (particularly if the first choice is given extra weight over the second).  Perhaps all this discussion is moot and there isn't any need in continuing to beat a dead horse or ask the Grant Committee to provide projected cash flow requirements for multiple locations.

Why don't we just let the vote continue? 

Cliff

Offline pozattitude

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Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
« Reply #123 on: November 01, 2007, 01:45:48 PM »
after reviewing this discussion I change my vote from New York to Vancouver if in the Americas.
I stand with Amsterdam in Europe

Rich
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Offline David_CA

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Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
« Reply #124 on: November 01, 2007, 01:56:13 PM »
Philly and Cliff both have a very valid point here.  I'd like this info also.

David
Black Friday 03-03-2006
03-23-06 CD4 359 @27.4% VL 75,938
06-01-06 CD4 462 @24.3% VL > 100,000
08-15-06 CD4 388 @22.8% VL >  "
10-21-06 CD4 285 @21.9% VL >  "
  Atripla started 12-01-2006
01-08-07 CD4 429 @26.8% VL 1872!
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11-06-07 CD4 570 @30.0% VL 140
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05-19-08 CD4 695 @33.1% VL < 48 undetectable!
08-21-08 CD4 725 @34.5%
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06-03-10 CD4 768 @34.9%
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Offline Alain

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Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
« Reply #125 on: November 01, 2007, 03:39:06 PM »
QUOTE...
Is it possible the fact he committed to resolve this issue and although the law hasn't been officially changed yet, he could had give the '' order '' so-to-speak not to enforce it ?

Regards,

The Canuck....end of QUOTE

I strongly believe that in a court of law it would give grounds (a tool as in the intention to lift the ban) in order to fight legally this HIV ban....according to my source....the only thing is to get him to pass the law which is not a priority right now....

Offline Alain

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Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
« Reply #126 on: November 01, 2007, 03:50:08 PM »
I can't help thinking that for our American friends there is not much  incentives to go outside the USA for obvious reasons which I understand.....Airfare, hotels and spending money.

Can't help thinking that AMG stand for American Mega(Members) Gathering, as for all others including myself, I feel that and sounds like, it is up to us to do our own somewhere else or just not be able participating at all.

And quite frankly I am aware that the majority rules having been part on an union all my life, but keep in mind that it is not speaking for all, at all times.

Just saying.

BTW my vote is anywhere outside the Continental United States.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2007, 04:43:23 PM by cowandalehouse »

Offline heartforyou

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Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
« Reply #127 on: November 01, 2007, 06:51:32 PM »
Changing my vote to Vancouver or Toronto.
United we stand.

Hermie
Diagnosed in 1987 and still kicking
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Offline Iggy

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Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
« Reply #128 on: November 01, 2007, 06:56:58 PM »
Iggy, as much as I love and adore you this line of argument, while sounding nice in a rhetorical way and indeed a truthful statement on its surface, is disingenuous.  The either/or equation of US v. non-US location will prevent some AIDSmeds-ers from attending.  The question should really be, which scenario will allow the most to attend, or if there is a compromise, what location balance out the issue?

The bottom line is that someone is going to be left out.  It would be nice if we knew what numbers we were talking about.

Also for others in the thread, if we are to have the next AMG in Europe, are you in essence asking that NO future AMGs ever be held in the US?  Or are you willing to sit out every other year like some US residents will have to, as a fair compromise?

Hey Philly,

Wanted to get back to you 

I don't think it is disingenuous though I do appreciate and understand why you may suggest it seems that way.  My reference as it being for ALL members can not in any way obviously imply that all members always have the ability to make an AMG...and let's face it - even if it is the U.S. doesn't mean that every U.S. member can attend anyway.  My statement was solely in regards that we don't choose a location that clearly prevents legally  (by local law) any member from attending unless they commit fraud.

And Yes.  I do think that until the U.S. government lifts the ban we should not hold any future AMG's in the U.S.  I personally  just can't understand a gathering that's origins are based on a support board for people with HIV and all the issues they face (including discrimination) committing to an event in a location that specifically discriminates against them from entering.  Anything less than that seems disingenuous to me in regards to the name of the gathering and its promotion, planning and fundraising in these boards. 

  But since my reading through these threads has been dicey, I'm not sure if it has already been suggested or not - but we COLLECTIVELY - ought to take this opportunity to raise our voices about this situation no matter where AMG(s) may end up being. 

I have dropped the ball on this issue slightly.  I had proposed to have something out for all today but have both been distracted by this more immediate discussion and a little matter at home that needed my attention.  I do think it is something worthy of all of us getting involved and will be posting something probably later tomorrow. 


Offline Razorbill

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Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
« Reply #129 on: November 01, 2007, 07:08:30 PM »
I guess i missed this vote, since it no longer appears.  Any destination is fine, as long at it is not in September. 

Offline englishgirl

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Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
« Reply #130 on: November 01, 2007, 07:13:41 PM »
we're still voting up until 17th nov

please could you be so kind as to read my thread before you decide where to vote for? http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=16816.0

thank you
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http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=17352.0


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Offline Ric Wilke

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Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
« Reply #131 on: November 01, 2007, 07:45:23 PM »
I'm very puzzled by much of this discussion.  After spending just short of a week in San Fransisco with friends from across both ponds, I don't recall the subject of anyone feeling uncomfortable going through US Customs ever coming to the surface.  Damn, Hermie does it all the time.  Dame Jan has done it three years in a row.  Now we are worried about being branded with the "Big F", a felon?

And cowardalehouse, you insult the members by referring to AMG as "American Megamember Gathering."  Just what do you think this sort of comment has added to this already heated discussion?  Please don't start a flamewar.  This does not help the atmosphere one little bit.

With respect to all, Ric

Offline carousel

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Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
« Reply #132 on: November 01, 2007, 08:14:27 PM »
Ric

Wasn't Alain (Cowandalehouse, please note spelling) banned from ever entering the US for being HIV and therefore unable to attend any AMG in that country.

I don't think he was flamebaiting.

Offline allopathicholistic

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Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
« Reply #133 on: November 01, 2007, 08:28:01 PM »
I dunno but something tells me Dublin Ireland would be a belly-laffin blast of a good time!

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
« Reply #134 on: November 01, 2007, 08:54:29 PM »
Wasn't Alain (Cowandalehouse, please note spelling) banned from ever entering the US for being HIV and therefore unable to attend any AMG in that country.

I don't think he was flamebaiting.


I'm pretty sure that's the case.

MtD

Offline aztecan

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Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
« Reply #135 on: November 01, 2007, 09:37:58 PM »
OK gang,

Here are my top two choices:

1 Mexico City, Mexico

http://www.allaboutmexicocity.com/

2 Vancouver, British Colombia, Canada

http://www.travel.bc.ca/


I have listed them in my order of preference. I fear many could not afford a European jaunt at this time, especially if the dollar doesn't recover.

Mexico City would be fun, economical and an adventure all rolled into one. In addition, there is this incentive:

Quote
Some food for thought:

The 17th International AIDS Conference is taking place in Mexico City from August 3 to 8, 2008. An AMG immediately following the conference might be an option to consider, with some folks arriving early to attend the conference itself. Here's a link to the official conference website.  There are plenty of affordable hotels throughout Mexico City and the weather is quite agreeable (plus, the famous Mexico City smog is considerably better in the summer months). As for the water supply, NOBODY should be drinking from the tap -- bottled water is in abundance and restaurants, more times than not, use iodine to help sterilize water used for washing vegetables and such, especially those to be eaten raw.

I lived in Mexico City for two years, so if I can be of any help in furthering this as a suggestion, please let me know.

Tim Horn
ę Last Edit: September 26, 2007, 04:02:02 PM by Tim Horn Ľ

Anyway, there you have my 2Ę worth.

HUGS,

Mark
« Last Edit: November 01, 2007, 09:59:18 PM by aztecan »
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Offline Robert

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Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
« Reply #136 on: November 01, 2007, 10:11:39 PM »
I've already voted and my vote was as follows:

1.  Amsterdam
2.  Amsterdam.

First of all, I really, really agree with Sweetmelia and Debra that it is just not fair to subject anyone to the capricious laws of the US.  AMG exists to celebrate our lives with each other without the fear of stigma or discrimination.
 
Secondly, The AMG is a gathering from all over he world.  It only seems fair to share it with the rest of the world vis-a-vis alternating continents and/or hemispheres so it can be available to everyone.

We don't know how many people will come to an (a) European conference because we've never done it.  How will we know unless we try? (And don't forget last year quite a few of them met in Amsterdam and had a great time.)   The 1st two AMG's in Canada were a great success in a large part because of the many local attendees (who, by the way, didn't come to SF because of that stupid law.)  I can't imagine why a gathering in Europe would be any different.

Now, if people want to have regional gatherings, that's fine.  But I think the Grant Committee should be set up to focus only on the international gathering.
 
The Grant Committee is not part of the planning committee.
 
The Grant Committee does not decide where or when the Gathering is. 

The Grant Committee does not negotiate hotel rates or fares.
 
The Grant Committee does not plan the events.
 
The AMG coordinator does plans the agenda(usually with the assistance of a local delegate) and he has absolutely nothing to do with the Grant Committee. 

The Grant Committee collects the money and distributes the money for the greatest good (IE.  allowing the greatest number to attend.)   This year most (but not all) of the grant money was allocated to people here in the States primarily so a larger number could attend.  If the next AMG were held in Europe, I would imagine most of the money would be distributed to Europeans who needed financial assistance.  It would only make sense.   

Where the AMG is held should not affect the generosity of our donors.

robert

(Who doesn't know if he's going to Amsterdam but certainly going to try.  Life is too short to stay on the farm. )

edited for clairty...not that that helps much
« Last Edit: November 01, 2007, 11:01:21 PM by Robert »
..........

Offline Ric Wilke

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Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
« Reply #137 on: November 01, 2007, 10:12:54 PM »
carousel, if you have nothing positive to add, may I suggest that you keep your fingers to yourself?  And talk to my hand, I'm not listening to anything you have to say.

Offline Oceanbeach

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Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
« Reply #138 on: November 01, 2007, 10:47:19 PM »
 ;D
« Last Edit: November 01, 2007, 10:50:58 PM by Sonomabeach »

Offline anniebc

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Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
« Reply #139 on: November 02, 2007, 12:20:07 AM »


Quote
I personally hadn't thought too long and hard about the legal ramifications of my entering the US until I attended AMG. My personal visits to friends are one thing; the questions at immigration were easy enough to answer without having to lie or sidestep. But attending a gathering of an internet group exclusively made up of HIV+ people, most of whom I'd never met? Not only did I have to lie, but the line of questioning was harder to sidestep.

Hi Mela
I may be missing something here but can you explain to me why it is different/easier to visit friends in the US than it is visiting with a group..and why are the questions so different..I'm finding it hard to see the difference.

Also
Quote
I only have one vote: Any place that doesn't have entry restrictions for HIV+ folk.

Given the first statement does this mean you won't be visiting friends in the US anymore..I'm just curious.

I haven't put a destination/vote forward yet because to be honest I've lost track of the original post..this has gone so off topic I don't know where it is anymore..so I'm withholding my vote until it gets back on track.

Or maybe I will just join Matty in Sydney or Vladivostok... ;)
Hugs
Jan
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
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Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
« Reply #140 on: November 02, 2007, 12:25:01 AM »
Or maybe I will just join Matty in Sydney or Vladivostok...

Absolutely babe. :) We'll paint Vladivostok red. ;)

MtD

Offline Ric Wilke

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Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
« Reply #141 on: November 02, 2007, 12:54:45 AM »
Dame Jan and Matty the Damned,

Hey, I rather like how that sounds!

Thom and I will save our money and join you in Vladivostok.  At least there will be no snipping.

Love you both, R&T

Offline naftalim

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Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
« Reply #142 on: November 02, 2007, 02:13:27 AM »
I'd like to make a suggestion. Lets look at this from a budget point of view as well. What is the average amount that would be spent to get to either a European or North American Destination? Once we arrive at that figure we can then look at how many non-North American members there are that would like to go. I am assuming that there are a larger percentage of US residents on this forum.  So, lets say there are a total of 75 people going, of which 20 are non-US. Lets assume an average of $800.00 cost.

Then, if the gathering is in North America, those of us here would subsidize some of the cost of those who would come here from Europe, and to a lesser extent vice versa as there are fewer people in the non North America Group sharing the subsidy.

For example, if the AMG is held in Vancouver, I would be willing to put $200 into a pool that would assist those coming from Europe to here. as there is no cost for me. If its held on the US West Coast, then the members in that area and close to it would do the same.

As for holding the event in the US, the last thing we want is for this kind of gathering to be a stress filled and potentially have devastating consequences for an attendee.

Offline manchesteruk

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Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
« Reply #143 on: November 02, 2007, 03:57:12 AM »

Hi Mela
I may be missing something here but can you explain to me why it is different/easier to visit friends in the US than it is visiting with a group..and why are the questions so different..I'm finding it hard to see the difference.

Also
Given the first statement does this mean you won't be visiting friends in the US anymore..I'm just curious.

Jan

Hey Jan,

I think I can answer this one on behalf of Debra with my own experience.  Because I was traveling alone I was grilled by the Immigration Officer he asked why I was visiting on my own, who I was going to see, how I knew these people in the US, where I was staying and what I was doing while there.  Now essentially as I was having to lie about all this and I'm absolutely rubbish at it I think it was pretty obvious and he picked up on it!  He was trying to catch me out by asking oh what was your friends name again?, what was the name of the hotel I forgot? it was a pretty nasty experience to be honest.  My hands were shaking and my heart was racing for about an hour afterwards.

Sure next year I could write down someones name and address remember a script to all the questions they ask and I'd probably do that if necessary, but is it fair to expect me to do so?

Chris
Diagnosed 11/05

"Life is too important to be taken seriously" Oscar Wilde

Offline Cliff

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Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
« Reply #144 on: November 02, 2007, 04:34:08 AM »
Chris,

It's to be expected that a border control agent will ask such questions.  I don't think he was doing so because he could tell that you were HIV positive.  He's just doing his job at trying to catch people who want to stay in the US unlawfully.  Those types of questions can be asked by passport control agents in any country. 

I get hassled by UK passport control everytime I return (and I have a valid residency).  They want to know where I am living, who I am working for, am I still working, why I'm in the country, etc.  I don't take it personal.  I've had American friends come visit me and complain about the UK passport agents.  But they are just doing their job.  I get hassled by EU countries whenever I go visit.  Well hassled is a strong word.  All they ever want to know is where I am staying and when am I leaving.  Actually my experience in Canada, (Montreal AMG), was probably the worst.  The guy was asking where I was staying, why I was coming to the country, why was I living in the UK, who was I coming to visit, why were we all meeting in Montreal.  And he asked a couple of them twice....I forgot the hotel's name and started fumbling for my papers.  I guess I could have said, it's a meeting of AIDS folks....but that doesn't seem like the easiest way to get through immigration (any immigration), plus it's none of their business anyway.  But again, he was just doing his job so I didn't take it personal.  But I agree, when it happens to you, it can be unnerving.

I guess what I am trying to say, is being hassled by passport control is not just an American-only event.  It can and will happen to members no matter which location we choose.

Offline Alain

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Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
« Reply #145 on: November 02, 2007, 04:38:39 AM »
I'm very puzzled by much of this discussion.  After spending just short of a week in San Fransisco with friends from across both ponds, I don't recall the subject of anyone feeling uncomfortable going through US Customs ever coming to the surface.  Damn, Hermie does it all the time.  Dame Jan has done it three years in a row.  Now we are worried about being branded with the "Big F", a felon?

And cowardalehouse, you insult the members by referring to AMG as "American Megamember Gathering."  Just what do you think this sort of comment has added to this already heated discussion?  Please don't start a flamewar.  This does not help the atmosphere one little bit.

With respect to all, Ric

Ric what is it with you these days? First you complain about this site having changed and can hardly explain why and now you accuse me of a flamewar.
 
I am not starting a flamewar but I have to live with my reality on a daily basis. I can't go to your country because of the HIV ban.

My words are just the expression of my feelings about the AMG. I know the rules and I will go by them, but again I can help feeling that there is very little desire for most American members to go abroad for what ever reasons they may have.

And valid ones; the airfare, hotel and lets face it, it would be a greater challenge to help as much members as possible with the financial issues.

You mark my word if the is an AMG outside the USA I can't help feeling that our American family members participation will be at a low level and we are going to organize it ourself.

So please stay cool and back off Ric. We are only discussing things here.   

Offline manchesteruk

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Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
« Reply #146 on: November 02, 2007, 04:45:29 AM »
Hey Cliff,

I didn't think he suspected I was HIV+ that would be some extreme paranoia wouldn't it, unless I had a biohazard tattoo on my forehead!  I'm quite sure the immigration process isn't a breeze in those other countries.  The difference is in those other countries I wouldn't have to lie about why I was there and I wouldn't be committing a felony and I wouldn't be sent home if found out!  Just as an example.  Say if someone caught me out on one of the standard questions and said look I know you aren't telling the truth, tell me why you are really here.  Could you imagine being in a situation like that?

Chris
Diagnosed 11/05

"Life is too important to be taken seriously" Oscar Wilde

Offline vokz

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Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
« Reply #147 on: November 02, 2007, 04:54:57 AM »
I guess what I am trying to say, is being hassled by passport control is not just an American-only event.  It can and will happen to members no matter which location we choose.

It isnít the fact that you are getting hassled that is the problem. It is the fact that you are getting hassled by people who are trained to study your body language to see if you are being evasive / getting stressed  .. and are increasingly also aided by electronic voice stress analysers to detect the clues in your voice. The more evasive you are, the more stress they detect, the more probing the answers get.

No bugger is saying that being hassled by various national versions of the little DHS fascists is an American-only event (although the event is uniquely and predictably long when entering the US) .. they are saying that it is only in America where you have to lie because of your HIV status.

It isnít going to happen to members no matter which location we choose, because not all locations have the ban on HIV-positive visitors.

True, they are more concerned about other things than they are about HIV; but electronic gadgetry just says that you are stressed .. not that you are stressed because you are trying to hide the fact that you are HIV-positive.

Offline Cliff

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Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
« Reply #148 on: November 02, 2007, 05:23:38 AM »
Hey Chris & Vokz,

Yes, I agree.  I can not say how I would feel going to US whilst there is a ban.  But what I can say is that I have been in similar situations.  I've had to lie on my work permit application for South Africa.  Luckily they don't test for HIV (unless you're in certain occupations), but they do ask if you have communicable diseases.  Also luckily, I had a doctor at the time who was willing to be flexible with the definition.  But yes, I was a bit nervous going through passport control the first time.  I've also had to visit 2 countries for work that have a ban on people living with HIV (Russia, China). 

It's a difficult decision and I can't say that I felt great about lying or that it didn't cross my mind.  But, it's just not a big enough issue for me to make hard and fast rules about.  If given the opportunity again, I would jump at the opportunity to work in South Africa again or visit Russia/China, even though it meant I would have lie.  I guess the benefit of those trips/opportunities outweighs the political issue.  But I recognise that not everyone has that view.  But by the same token, I shouldn't be vilified or accused of wanting people to commit fraud/felonies, for having that view.

But I will say this, I would hope at least people would be consistent about it (which leads back to Jan's question...which is one that other people have voiced privately).  If you won't set foot in the US because of the ban, then be consistent about it.  I think part of this is America bashing (even if well-deserved).  When I first moved to the UK and would visit HIV meetings/organisations...everyone would immediately bitch at me for the ban, something I obviously have no control over, but the same folks who were dead set against the US would turn around and brag about all the cheap crap they got whilst taking advantage of the weak dollar visiting New York City on a weekend shopping trip.

For me, banning AMG from the US only hurts Americans with HIV who live on limited means.  Personally, I'm not prepared to do that.  The event was held outside the US for the first two years because of the ban, but no one seems to want to recognise that.  And that is what has pissed me off about all this bickering (that and the fact that some people, who have no real interest in AMG, are antagonising the issue).  People are claiming that the US members don't care about those living outside the US....but they do.  If people want a city outside the US, then vote for one and convince people why that city would be a good location.  Attacking members for voting for their own self-interest only puts everyone on the defensive.  This whole situation should have been handled differently...it's unnecessarily created a lot of bad blood between members.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2007, 05:36:20 AM by Cliff »

Offline gerry

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Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
« Reply #149 on: November 02, 2007, 05:40:47 AM »
I would like to request that the Grants Committee present projected finances for US/Canada/Europe locations, how much money would be expected to be raised for these 3 scenarios, and how this translates into how many people can attend.

Keep in mind it's NOT just the po' folks at issue, the location will greatly impact how much money is raised.  I don't wish to offend our non-US board members, but I've gotten the feeling that most of the grant money raised is by US members, probably because they make up a greater percentage on the board (and also because the Euros are spending more to travel to North America of course, but we're also talking about less in numbers).

Basically I want to know, and I think it's important for the discussion, that for every location outside of the US, how does that impact fundraising and how does that translate into how many less can attend?

Let's be quite clear, EACH location decision will impact someone, albeit for different reasons.  There's a lot of overly emotional points being made here and in the other thread, with little to no actual understanding of the financial considerations -- and yes, that IS a reality.  I'm all for appropriate political considerations, but I'm also a very pragmatic person.  I just think it should be clear what we're talking about and in the absence of this information I find it hard to arrive at any consensus.

Unfortunately, projections would be very difficult, if not impossible, to do because of so many variables to consider.

If you'd like to look at the Grants Committee financial activity for the Montreal gathering in 2006, it is in this thread.  The total cash raised was $2818.  However, there were donors who paid for a total of 11 nights hotel accommodations directly to recipients.  There were also plane tickets directly awarded to some recipients paid for in cash or airline miles, as well as room sharing.

If you'd like to look at the GC financial activity for the San Francisco gathering this year, it is in this thread.  The total cash raised was $5334; there were no direct donations from members to recipients other than room-sharing.

The GC is not supposed to reveal the source of the donations or the identities of the recipient.  However, there was a recent survey done and the results were posted in this thread.  This included items about plans to donate for 2008.  Anyone could use that thread to discuss issues and suggestions about future AMG GC fund-raising and distribution.

EDIT: The GC works with whatever amount it is able to collect.  Since several of the people planning to donate are themselves planning to attend, the collections might be affected by the potential donors' own travel costs.  To what extent this could be is very difficult to project since only a handful of responses were obtained and the location was not factored into the survey.  A follow-up survey can always be performed to get a sense of this.

Gerry
« Last Edit: November 02, 2007, 06:48:20 AM by gerry »

 


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