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Author Topic: The Banning of Moffie65  (Read 10674 times)

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Offline newbernswiss

  • Member
  • Posts: 260
Re: The Banning of Moffie65
« Reply #50 on: October 24, 2007, 09:06:55 AM »
I personally dislike anyone having to be banned from our forum, :-\  BUT there are guidelines regarding how we must interact with each other. If the Administrators and Moderators just turned their heads this forum would be an undesirable place to get good info about living with HIV. I can't begin to imagine how the language would change if we were allowed to say whatever, Not to mention the pic's that would be posted. Call me a butt kisser or whatever, I've had a few post deleted from these forms myself by the moderators so I know what it feels like to have your hand slapped. Did I get pissed, NO. I try to keep my language and pic's at an acceptable, tolerate level. We may all that the same reasons (HIV) for being here, but we all don't share the same social graces. :o
So while friends come and go, HIV is forever. Lets respect each others opinions and treat each other as the survivors we are. The enemy is HIV, not other Aids.com Forum members, administrators, or moderators. 

Offline Iggy

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  • Posts: 2,435
Re: The Banning of Moffie65
« Reply #51 on: October 24, 2007, 09:23:27 AM »
When I saw this thread title and first couple of posts I thought it was a mistaken assumption about Tim's recent time out.  It is disheartening to find that the subject line is not in error.

There has been some talk on this thread about how warm Moffie was and how he served as a guide for so many who benefited greatly from his intelligence, experience and compassion.  There has also been some talk about Moffie being somewhat cantankerous in his approach and unable to control his anger which often resulted in feelings of isolation by those who were the subject of his focus.

Both takes are 100% correct.

What is not correct nor true is what some people have suggested (here and elsewhere) the motivations behind his postings. Not once have I seen Moffie "go after" anyone, but I certainly did see him respond to those who challenged his views or who tried to minimize the reality of this epidemic.

What Tim represented to these forums was a much needed foil to those who were as adamant and headstrong on the minimal and dismissive view of the consequences and ramifications on being positive as he was on the need for us all to not go silently into that good night -whether through giving up in despair or pretending all can be handled with a positive outlook.  Unfortunately many of those who Moffie countered was simply more agile at being passive aggressive and baiting and were often successful in enraging the man enough to appear to be the victim of a big mean Moffie picking on them. 

Unfortunately what makes an activist a success is a not usually compatible with the idea that everyone has a valid and intelligent position on the issue.  Sometimes it takes an activist to stop the nods to insanity that is brought by arrogant ignorance, and Tim was a person who cared more for the message then the fragility of the feelings of those who needed to hear that message.  The problem here is that this is not primarily a place of activism, but of support, and unfortunately most people do not include confrontation or harsh reality in their definition of support.  I do not say this as a support or opposition to his delivery or this site, simply an observation - an observation I might add that is based on personal experience as highlighted in my own bio. 

Yet with all of this comes a certain acceptance that Tim is no child and is responsible for his own decisions.  If he has decided to pull his blog, then the decision is his as is the consequences.  The same goes for any correspondence between him and this site owners and moderators, and the present outcome. 

I am very saddened by this, and feel that it is going to hurt the general level of real knowledge on this site, but I also respect Tim too much to claim he is a victim either.

Dan J.

  • Guest
Re: The Banning of Moffie65
« Reply #52 on: October 24, 2007, 10:18:08 AM »
I will miss Tim very much.

Dan

Offline Andy Velez

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Re: The Banning of Moffie65
« Reply #53 on: October 24, 2007, 10:18:18 AM »
Dear All,

Ann and Peter have each expressed thoughts with which I agree.

Moffie very much earned the time out he was given in a flamming situation. Even so, his getting that troubled me very much because I knew that it potentially would bring him the NEXT time to a permanent ban. Being familiar with Moffie's impulsive nature from many past occasions I knew that it was almost only a question of time before he got himself into another explosive situation and said things we can't allow here.

As it turned out he was the one who chose to create a circumstance in which Peter banned him. Please read that carefully. Moffie wouldn't have been banned if he hadn't pulled his blog and essentially told Peter to go to hell.

He did the same thing sometime back and through our patience we managed to "talk him off the ledge" so to speak. For which I might add he apologized and thanked us at the time. And there have been so many times when we have had to step in caution him. I've said it before today. It bears repeating. Freedom of speech is not a carte blanche to say just anything you want to spout. It comes with responsibilities.

People can wax nostalgically all they like about how great the Forums used to be. And they were and they still are. But that nostalgia can obscure the reasons certain rules came into being. There were horrible firefights here and they weren't just the occasional fracas. There was a lot, a LOT of very mean spirited and disruptive stuff that happened in these pages.

The rules we came up after a lot of discussion with were because the situation demanded it in order to keep this a safe place for people to come for support and information. I cannot count the number of times we moderators have discussed issuing a time out and even more time spent in considering a ban when it involved a longtime member.

And as said, Moffie was getting a time out, not a ban. He turned the situation into ban. Sure he held a special place of esteem for many here who have known him over a period of time. But just how special was that place? Did it entitle him to just blast off and attack someone in the ranting manner he was given to? That's what earned him a time out.

But he got on his high horse and impulsively pulled his blogs. Defend him as you will and love him all you like, he was the one who forced Peter's hand on this. I'm sad the situation has come to this, but no one can simply be allowed to say anything they want to here. That's the way to anarchy. We've had enough tastes of it  in the past. It caused many of you to ask us in threads and in PMs to put a stop to it, including some who have expressed themselves here today.

While you're feeling sad and sorry about this you might think about Moffie's part in having brought matters to this conclusion. And even though I know he brought it on himself, I can't help being sad as well.    
Andy Velez

Offline northernguy

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Re: The Banning of Moffie65
« Reply #54 on: October 24, 2007, 10:31:55 AM »
..
People can wax nostalgically all they like about how great the Forums used to be. And they were and they still are. But that nostalgia can obscure the reasons certain rules came into being. There were horrible firefights here and they weren't just the occasional fracas. There was a lot, a LOT of very mean spirited and disruptive stuff that happened in these pages...

If so I'm glad I missed the old forums.  I come here and have received support, humour and answers to questions from those struggling with the same problems.  Cassandra-like predictions of doom for everyone with HIV I do not find particularly helpful.
Apr 28/06 cd4 600 vl 10,600 cd% 25
Nov 8/09 cd4 510 vl 49,5000 cd% 16
Jan 16/10 cd4 660 vl 54,309 cd% 16
Feb 17/10 Started Atripla
Mar 7/10 cd4 710 vl 1,076 cd% 21
Apr 18/10 cd4 920 vl 268 cd% 28
Jun 19/10 cd4 450 vl 60 cd% 25
Aug 15/10 cd4 680 vl 205 cd% 27
Apr 3/11 cd4 780 vl <40 cd% 30
Jul 17/11 cd4 960 vl <40 cd%33
April 15/12 cd4 1,010 vl <40 cd% 39
April 20/12 Switched to Viramune + Truvada
Aug 2/12 cd4 1040, vl <40, cd% 38
Oct 19 cd4 1,110 vl <40 cd% 41

Offline david25luvit

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Re: The Banning of Moffie65
« Reply #55 on: October 24, 2007, 10:33:37 AM »
This ain't Kansas anymore...........
It's a sad, sad day.
Moffie we will miss you.............................
In Memory of
Raymond David McRae III
Nov. 25, 1972- Oct. 15, 2004
I miss him terribly..........

Offline Iggy

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Re: The Banning of Moffie65
« Reply #56 on: October 24, 2007, 10:50:45 AM »
If so I'm glad I missed the old forums.  I come here and have received support, humour and answers to questions from those struggling with the same problems.  Cassandra-like predictions of doom for everyone with HIV I do not find particularly helpful.

Might I suggest that your multiple posts in this thread and in particular this last one are very indeed similar to what you accuse Moffie of only though with claims that you are doing the opposite.  You are not providing support here - only stirring the pot I believe in hopes of a confrontation.

I respectfully ask you to stop dancing on the grave of one who is no longer with us as an active member of the forums.

Offline Peter Staley

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Re: The Banning of Moffie65
« Reply #57 on: October 24, 2007, 10:57:50 AM »
If so I'm glad I missed the old forums.  I come here and have received support, humour and answers to questions from those struggling with the same problems.  Cassandra-like predictions of doom for everyone with HIV I do not find particularly helpful.

Northernguy -- they'll be no dancing on graves here.  This was pure flamebait.  You've been warned.  Don't post to this thread again.

Peter

Offline englishgirl

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Re: The Banning of Moffie65
« Reply #58 on: October 24, 2007, 11:27:37 AM »
i too have known about this since moffie emailed me on monday. i really dont know what to say other than im really, really sad about the whole thing. other than that, what iggy said in post 51 kinda sums it up for me.

a slight aside but kinda related: im not enjoying the forums at the moment, there seems to be a lot of nastiness here. i hope this stops soon because otherwise i can see a lot of us just relying on email, and then how does that help the newcomers either newly diagnosed or newly online? i wish everyone would be more tolerant of each other and each other's opinions. please.
ACT NOW TO CAMPAIGN AGAINST THE TRAVEL BAN:
http://campaigning.tht.org.uk/cms/cmsloader?WfJVLp&view=11,301,1385,0,-html

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=17352.0


"I'm not keen on the idea of the afterlife - not without knowing who else will be there and what the entertainment will be. Personally I'd rather just take a rest." Oscar Berger, PWA: Looking AIDS in the Face, 1996. RIP.

Offline Dachshund

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Re: The Banning of Moffie65
« Reply #59 on: October 24, 2007, 11:38:21 AM »
I'd like to say that I am saddened that Tim was banned or chose to leave the forums. I consider him a friend and 99.9% of the time agreed with his stand on the issues. I must confess I'd wince on occasion reading some of Tim's replies thinking that this just might get him a time out. Unfortunately, his last post did just that. I consider myself along with a few other forum members someone who truly had Tim's back. Call it a conspiracy theory if you like, but in my mind there was/are a few members who constantly used passive aggressive sniping at Tim hoping to goad him into losing his temper. I've told him that and asked him not to play their game. In fact just before he left the forums I sent Tim a PM after a member was banned (though I have no knowledge) telling Tim that I felt that the moderators had finally recognized what this person was up to. I can't recall my exact words to Tim, but I wanted him to know that he wasn't alone that some of us saw through the shenanigans. He replied to me on a positive note and was a bit surprised to think that the mods had been paying attention. Like I said, I have no knowledge of this, I hoped this was the case, and thought it might make Tim feel better hearing it. I think it did make him feel better. I wish Tim had followed his own counsel and had done what he has recommended to so many of us over the years. Step back, take a breath and evaluate before reacting. I'm truly sorry it came to this.

I must say I am a bit upset with how this thread was started. I feel it was just a way for an angry forum member to attack AidsMeds. You can't have it both ways. You can't accuse folks of something, hint that you have the "smoking gun" proving your point in the form of an email, and then refuse to post it because of the "gory details." You can't demand that someone be forthcoming and then not have the cojones to print the email and let folks judge for themselves. If you want an open debate you can't just hurl charges and hope the mud sticks. Framing the debate your way results in people of the highest moral caliber being called fuck wads. People like Jan who extended their trip to AMG so she could rendezvous with her friend Tim in Las Vegas.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2007, 11:41:28 AM by Dachshund »

Offline David_CA

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Re: The Banning of Moffie65
« Reply #60 on: October 24, 2007, 11:56:46 AM »
a slight aside but kinda related: im not enjoying the forums at the moment, there seems to be a lot of nastiness here. i hope this stops soon because otherwise i can see a lot of us just relying on email, and then how does that help the newcomers either newly diagnosed or newly online? i wish everyone would be more tolerant of each other and each other's opinions. please.

This has been bothering me for a couple of weeks, too.  It seems like we have the same discussions over and over... I don't mean that people are having problems or issues and need help, but like the same 'debates' that have no right or wrong answers.  People get caught up in them, get pissed, and post hateful remarks.  Other times, they'll take the passive-aggressive approach and throw in a term line optimistic, current politicians, positive thinking, doom and gloom predictors, rehashing the same crap that a particular member has stated in the past, etc.  I don't know if it's the pending full moon, if stress and emotions are out of whack due to recent major health problems with particular members, or what all else.  I do know that it's becoming a bit unpleasant. 

One thing I've done is, after I type out a reply or a post, I preview it and read it.  I'll read it to see how it can be misinterpreted.  I look for grammar and spelling mistakes.  I look at it as something I'm putting out for the world to see, which is exactly what I am doing. 

I've seen mention of 'self policing'.  To me, that makes things just as unpleasant as an obvious flame-bater.  I've never reported anybody to a moderator, but I have sent PM's to people telling them that they may want to edit their post, as it'll likely be taken out of context or misunderstood, but I don't bitch at them.  Here's part of a PM I sent to another member yesterday: "I know you're pissed at [XXXX}, but you might want to edit your post about [xxxxxxxxxx].  There's no sense in you getting timed out.  If not, you'll at least get a warning.  I'm not trying to tell you what to do or anything, but just trying to keep another HIV 'brother' out of trouble!  Take care."

I guess what I'd like to see is a bit more compassion towards others and a bit more self control when it comes to posting ones feelings.  After previewing this reply, I just read Dachshund's post.  I think he states a lot of what I feel, and I'll quote part of his reply here:
Quote
Step back, take a breath and evaluate before reacting.

David

Black Friday 03-03-2006
03-23-06 CD4 359 @27.4% VL 75,938
06-01-06 CD4 462 @24.3% VL > 100,000
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10-21-06 CD4 285 @21.9% VL >  "
  Atripla started 12-01-2006
01-08-07 CD4 429 @26.8% VL 1872!
05-08-07 CD4 478 @28.1% VL 740
08-03-07 CD4 509 @31.8% VL 370
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02-21-08 CD4 648 @32.4% VL 600
05-19-08 CD4 695 @33.1% VL < 48 undetectable!
08-21-08 CD4 725 @34.5%
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You must be the change you want to see in the world.  Mahatma Gandhi

Offline woodshere

  • Member
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Re: The Banning of Moffie65
« Reply #61 on: October 24, 2007, 01:17:57 PM »
It seems like we have the same discussions over and over... I don't mean that people are having problems or issues and need help, but like the same 'debates' that have no right or wrong answers. 

No matter how much things change they always stay the same.

History repeats itself.

Some discussions will always be repeated and hashed out because unfortunately we continue to get new members of the recently infected.  And as they begin their HIV journey they will have many of the same thoughts, views and feelings that each of us had when our journeys begin.  It is just the ebb and flow of our lives.
"Let us give pubicity to HV/AIDS and not hide it..." "One of the things destroying people with AIDS is the stigma we attach to it."   Nelson Mandela

Offline David_CA

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Re: The Banning of Moffie65
« Reply #62 on: October 24, 2007, 01:29:54 PM »
Some discussions will always be repeated and hashed out because unfortunately we continue to get new members of the recently infected.  And as they begin their HIV journey they will have many of the same thoughts, views and feelings that each of us had when our journeys begin.  It is just the ebb and flow of our lives.

Yeah, I realize that.  I have no problem with those.  In fact, that's to be expected.  I know that many others have likely asked every question that I've asked and will likely ask in the future.  I'm referring to those discussions with the same members participating saying the same things as always and people getting upset about 'em again and again.

David
Black Friday 03-03-2006
03-23-06 CD4 359 @27.4% VL 75,938
06-01-06 CD4 462 @24.3% VL > 100,000
08-15-06 CD4 388 @22.8% VL >  "
10-21-06 CD4 285 @21.9% VL >  "
  Atripla started 12-01-2006
01-08-07 CD4 429 @26.8% VL 1872!
05-08-07 CD4 478 @28.1% VL 740
08-03-07 CD4 509 @31.8% VL 370
11-06-07 CD4 570 @30.0% VL 140
02-21-08 CD4 648 @32.4% VL 600
05-19-08 CD4 695 @33.1% VL < 48 undetectable!
08-21-08 CD4 725 @34.5%
11-11-08 CD4 672 @39.5%
02-11-09 CD4 773 @36.8%
05-11-09 CD4 615 @36.2%
08-19-09 CD4 770 @38.5%
11-19-09 CD4 944 @33.7%
02-17-10 CD4 678 @39.9%  
06-03-10 CD4 768 @34.9%
09-21-10 CD4 685 @40.3%
01-10-11 CD4 908 @36.3%
05-23-11 CD4 846 @36.8% VL 80
02-13-12 CD4 911 @41.4% VL<20
You must be the change you want to see in the world.  Mahatma Gandhi

Offline thunter34

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Re: The Banning of Moffie65
« Reply #63 on: October 24, 2007, 02:22:13 PM »
I must say I am a bit upset with how this thread was started. I feel it was just a way for an angry forum member to attack AidsMeds.

Agreed.  As I review this thread, I can't see what other aim it could have possibly been thought to have other than to stir anger and ill will. 
AIDS isn't for sissies.

Offline woodshere

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  • ain't no shame in my game
Re: The Banning of Moffie65
« Reply #64 on: October 24, 2007, 02:29:52 PM »
I'm referring to those discussions with the same members participating saying the same things as always and people getting upset about 'em again and again.



ahhhh, gottcha.
"Let us give pubicity to HV/AIDS and not hide it..." "One of the things destroying people with AIDS is the stigma we attach to it."   Nelson Mandela

Offline sdcabincrew74

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Re: The Banning of Moffie65
« Reply #65 on: October 24, 2007, 03:33:46 PM »

SD,

You're lucky Jan and Peter got to you first. I would have given you a Time Out, no warnings necessary.


Threats!  I forgot the mods are holier than thou on this site.  This site has lost what it once had and I completely blame our faultless moderators!
The difference between an overnight and a layover is luck!

Offline thunter34

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  • His name is Carl.
Re: The Banning of Moffie65
« Reply #66 on: October 24, 2007, 03:59:58 PM »
Threats!  I forgot the mods are holier than thou on this site.  This site has lost what it once had and I completely blame our faultless moderators!

I call "bullshit".  No, the mods are not "holier than thou", but they are the enforcer of the posting rules.  And the toxic posts you have made in this thread scream out for disciplinary actiion. 

You seem hell bent on getting yourself timed out or banned from here, sd.  To post crap like this and then claim you are being bullied is pure malarkey.

EDIT:  I respectfully ask you to stop it, sd.  This stuff you are posting isn't helping the situation at all.  Your intentions in this thread seem pretty suspect as well.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2007, 04:03:34 PM by thunter34 »
AIDS isn't for sissies.

Offline Ann

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Re: The Banning of Moffie65
« Reply #67 on: October 24, 2007, 04:09:32 PM »
Threats!  I forgot the mods are holier than thou on this site.  This site has lost what it once had and I completely blame our faultless moderators!

SD,

See you in seven days. Enjoy your time out.

Ann
Condoms are a girl's best friend

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"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline thunter34

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Re: The Banning of Moffie65
« Reply #68 on: October 24, 2007, 04:22:56 PM »
I need to say something here:

For all this talk about "the good old days" around here, I think it speaks pretty well of the freedom of expression we enjoy here that this dreadful thread has been allowed to bubble and boil here as long as it has.  Because from where I'm sitting, most of this thread has been little more than that:  a putrid witch's brew concocted to poison.

I have only been on here a year, so maybe it really was pure milk & honey way back when.  But this "pale imitation" that we have here and now had been pretty damn good to me.  It's made my life dealing with HIV a sight better, I'll tell ya that.

Putting it in print,

Tim Hunter
AIDS isn't for sissies.

Offline englishgirl

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Re: The Banning of Moffie65
« Reply #69 on: October 24, 2007, 04:31:19 PM »
not that one should quote oneself but:
im not enjoying the forums at the moment, there seems to be a lot of nastiness here. i hope this stops soon because otherwise i can see a lot of us just relying on email, and then how does that help the newcomers either newly diagnosed or newly online? i wish everyone would be more tolerant of each other and each other's opinions. please.

and what timmy hunter said.
ACT NOW TO CAMPAIGN AGAINST THE TRAVEL BAN:
http://campaigning.tht.org.uk/cms/cmsloader?WfJVLp&view=11,301,1385,0,-html

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=17352.0


"I'm not keen on the idea of the afterlife - not without knowing who else will be there and what the entertainment will be. Personally I'd rather just take a rest." Oscar Berger, PWA: Looking AIDS in the Face, 1996. RIP.

Offline anniebc

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Re: The Banning of Moffie65
« Reply #70 on: October 24, 2007, 05:05:00 PM »
Quote
But this "pale imitation" that we have here and now had been pretty damn good to me.  It's made my life dealing with HIV a sight better,

Tim the forums of today do not Pale in comparison to the old forums..they offer just as much support now as they did back then...we all look back on the "Good old days" wether it's the old forums or life in general, things change, and if we are still getting what we want/need then change is not a bad thing.

I'm glad the forums have given you what you needed, but remember you have given just as much back..it really does work both ways, and that's what the forums are all about.

Hugs
Jan :-*
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
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Offline Ann

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Re: The Banning of Moffie65
« Reply #71 on: October 24, 2007, 05:23:27 PM »
The more this place changes, the more it stays the same. These forums are what you make of them. Nothing more, nothing less. You get out exactly what you put in. You put support in, you get support out. You put vitriol in, you get vitriol - and occassionally timed - out.

And with that, I think it's time this thread was locked.

Ann
Condoms are a girl's best friend

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"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

 


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