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Author Topic: clean  (Read 10795 times)

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Offline woodshere

  • Member
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  • ain't no shame in my game
Re: clean
« Reply #50 on: October 16, 2007, 01:10:37 PM »
While this is a topic that can pass some time in discussion, I think in reality there are a whole lot of bigger fish to fry than this one.  So I'm gonna quit carping about it.

I tend to agree.

While I don't necessarily like the term, I am not going to let it interfere with getting to know someone or getting a hot fuck.  I do try to explain how it isn't an appropriate usage of the word when discussing HIV.  However at least they ask or let a person know that they are thinking about HIV and STD's, giving you the opportunity for a learning experience.  Perhaps in more ways than one.

Woods
"Let us give pubicity to HV/AIDS and not hide it..." "One of the things destroying people with AIDS is the stigma we attach to it."   Nelson Mandela

Offline milker

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Re: clean
« Reply #51 on: October 16, 2007, 01:23:41 PM »
Mike,

"clean" is used in French to say that someone has taken a shower, for example, and it's not used to say "sti free", I'm sure there is another term for it, but this was not the question. I didn't know the origin of it and that has been explained.

What I feel from the answers is that it's a recognized term, long used, and that apart from telling someone using it that it's offensive there is nothing else we can do, we just live with it.

Milker.
mid-dec: stupid ass
mid-jan: seroconversion
mid-feb: poz
mar 07: cd4 432 (35%) vl 54000
may 07: cd4 399 (28%) vl 27760
jul 07: cd4 403 (26%) vl 99241
oct 07: cd4 353 (24%) vl 29993
jan 08: cd4 332 (26%) vl 33308
mar 08: cd4 392 (23%) vl 75548
jun 08: cd4 325 (27%) vl 45880
oct 08: cd4 197 (20%) vl 154000 <== aids diagnosis
nov 2 08 start Atripla
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apr 23 09: cd4 604 (29%) vl 50 woohoo :D :D
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Now accepting applications from blowjob ninjasô

Offline thunter34

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Re: clean
« Reply #52 on: October 16, 2007, 01:24:20 PM »
at least you're not lying on your BigMuscle.com profile that you're HIV negative unlike someone else around here.

O NOZ.

A philly buster.
AIDS isn't for sissies.

Offline thunter34

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Re: clean
« Reply #53 on: October 16, 2007, 01:26:57 PM »
What I feel from the answers is that it's a recognized term, long used, and that apart from telling someone using it that it's offensive there is nothing else we can do, we just live with it.

Well...yeah. That's pretty much it (short of Matty's stellar suggestion for cutting out their tongues).

I mean, if it becomes the subject of protest, there are better uses for the poster board and markers than that.
AIDS isn't for sissies.

Online Miss Philicia

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Re: clean
« Reply #54 on: October 16, 2007, 01:45:11 PM »
O NOZ.

A philly buster.

Damn straight.  Philicia has a .pdf screen capture of it as well, so fellas don't fuck with me.  It's not my first time at the rodeo.
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline jkinatl2

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Re: clean
« Reply #55 on: October 16, 2007, 01:51:30 PM »
People who lie about their status have zero credibility on this forum. I am just saying. Plilly, please forward me the .pdf or URL :)

More to the point, people who say one thing (and stridently so) on these forums yet espouse a totally different viewpoint on other web sites are hypocrites, and should not be shocked when this is uncovered.

Just saying.

"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

Welcome Thread

Offline thunter34

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Re: clean
« Reply #56 on: October 16, 2007, 02:03:12 PM »
and for the record, i'm not trying to be snippy.  just not feeling well.  it's just suprising to me that this thread would have as much length as this.  a lot of it seems a bit, well...masturbatory.  feels like we're at the keys here...mostly just stroking away.  and without much in the way of poppers to speak of.
AIDS isn't for sissies.

Offline dixieman

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Re: clean
« Reply #57 on: October 16, 2007, 02:09:23 PM »
The Term "clean" came from doctors using this terminology... Clean bill of health... thats where the term came from...

Online Miss Philicia

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Re: clean
« Reply #58 on: October 16, 2007, 02:09:24 PM »
and for the record, i'm not trying to be snippy.  just not feeling well.  it's just suprising to me that this thread would have as much length as this.  a lot of it seems a bit, well...masturbatory.  feels like we're at the keys here...mostly just stroking away.  and without much in the way of poppers to speak of.

There you go again getting all deep and existential on me.

Did I mention that the boys at Pigmart/Fort Troff are having a sale?
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline meanderthal

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Re: clean
« Reply #59 on: October 16, 2007, 09:59:00 PM »
If you were a Will and Grace fan, you might remember an episode where Grace was dating a character played by Woody Harrelson.   There was a scene where they had just come from getting tested and Grace made the comment "we just found out we're clean so now we're going to get dirty".   And it got a big laugh.   That line has always stayed with me because I was really taken aback when I heard it.    Up until that point I had considered it really offensive to equate being clean with being neg but then I heard it on the most popular gay-friendly sit-com on TV and it made me wonder if it was OK it say it.    I just wonder how many other gay men, both neg and poz, had the same thought when they heard it.

Offline fearless

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Re: clean
« Reply #60 on: October 16, 2007, 11:19:51 PM »
Online I don't find the generic "clean" much more offensive than disease free. That's all they are asking. I still say most (including you ;)) won't pass up a hot fuck even if they ask if you are clean. Maybe when you're snuggling in the afterglow you might whinge and say it hurts your feelings, but not before.

Don't bet on it, Hal. I find nothing more offensive and de-hornying than being asked if I'm clean. They get an appropriate serve and I move on. I actually had a hooker once asked me if I was clean, which I found slightly ironic given what we were arranging to set up.
Be forgiving, be grateful, be optimistic

Offline wellington

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Re: clean
« Reply #61 on: October 21, 2007, 10:57:12 AM »
Would it be bad to say "Yes. But, I'm a pathological liar." ;]

Personally, I'd rather have someone show their ignorance/insensitivity. Helps me to move on without so much time wasted. If I have the energy, I spare some reflection and education for the poor soul. If not, they're their own education control board.

Offline Bucko

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Re: clean
« Reply #62 on: October 21, 2007, 01:25:07 PM »

When I hear someone use or say, "I'm clean." ......I normally reference it to being drug-free. It's just the way I process it, first.

Mike

That's how I've always processed it. It's derived from "clean & sober", I think and carried over from as someone else (Dixie I think?) said, "clean bill of health", which def predates Mancunt et al.

It was also bandied about by the same member who brought us "Blowjob Ninja" if I'm not mistaken, and is part of the verbiage of that whole scene.

Is it offensive? Yeah. Does it offend me when I hear it spoken? Yeah. Do I slap down a WW in AII when it rears its judgmental little head in casual usage? Sure.

But does this subject require a multi-page thread to dissect?

People who use the "C" word to mean HIV- are no more intentionally offensive than I am when I use "neg", which as was once pointed out to me sounds uncomfortably like a racial pejorative by some hyper-sensitive with his own axe to grind.

On my Mancunt profile I have a line that reads:
"When I read D&D free, I tamp out my cigarette and wonder if he'll settle for three out of five."
Blessed with brains, talent and gorgeous tits.

The revolutionary smart set reads The Spin Cycle at least once every day.

Blathering on AIDSmeds since 2005, provocative from birth

Offline northernguy

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Re: clean
« Reply #63 on: October 21, 2007, 01:43:56 PM »
..It was also bandied about by the same member who brought us "Blowjob Ninja"...

I must have missed that thread, I'm intrigued...
Apr 28/06 cd4 600 vl 10,600 cd% 25
Nov 8/09 cd4 510 vl 49,5000 cd% 16
Jan 16/10 cd4 660 vl 54,309 cd% 16
Feb 17/10 Started Atripla
Mar 7/10 cd4 710 vl 1,076 cd% 21
Apr 18/10 cd4 920 vl 268 cd% 28
Jun 19/10 cd4 450 vl 60 cd% 25
Aug 15/10 cd4 680 vl 205 cd% 27
Apr 3/11 cd4 780 vl <40 cd% 30
Jul 17/11 cd4 960 vl <40 cd%33
April 15/12 cd4 1,010 vl <40 cd% 39
April 20/12 Switched to Viramune + Truvada
Aug 2/12 cd4 1040, vl <40, cd% 38
Oct 19 cd4 1,110 vl <40 cd% 41

Offline Bucko

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    • The Spin Cycle
Re: clean
« Reply #64 on: October 21, 2007, 01:46:42 PM »
Blessed with brains, talent and gorgeous tits.

The revolutionary smart set reads The Spin Cycle at least once every day.

Blathering on AIDSmeds since 2005, provocative from birth

Offline Queen Tokelove

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Re: clean
« Reply #65 on: October 21, 2007, 02:34:03 PM »
It's funny to me how a word can mean different things to people. The word clean never meant anything sexual to me. I always looked at it in terms of drugs/alcohol or the condition of one's person or their housekeeping skills.
Started Atripla/Ziagen on 9/13/07.
10/31/07 CD4-265 VL- undetectable
2/6/08 CD4- 401 VL- undetectable
5/7/08 CD4- 705 VL- undetectable
6/4/08 CD4- 775 VL- undetectable
8/6/08 CD4- 805 VL- undetectable
11/13/08 CD4- 774 VL--undetectable
2/4/09  CD4- 484  VL- 18,000 (2 months off meds)
3/3/09---Starting Back on Meds---
4/27/09 CD4- 664 VL-- undetectable
6/17/09 CD4- 438 VL- 439
8/09 CD4- 404 VL- 1,600
01-22-10-- CD4- 525 VL- 59,000
Cherish the simple things life has to offer

The Royal Blog

Offline northernguy

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Re: clean
« Reply #66 on: October 21, 2007, 08:31:01 PM »
http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=16233.0

Have fun, doll  ;)

Interesting, I believe I might have qualified for the said "Blowjob Ninja" title back in the day.  As to what i could do with a pair of numchucks, well... ;D
Apr 28/06 cd4 600 vl 10,600 cd% 25
Nov 8/09 cd4 510 vl 49,5000 cd% 16
Jan 16/10 cd4 660 vl 54,309 cd% 16
Feb 17/10 Started Atripla
Mar 7/10 cd4 710 vl 1,076 cd% 21
Apr 18/10 cd4 920 vl 268 cd% 28
Jun 19/10 cd4 450 vl 60 cd% 25
Aug 15/10 cd4 680 vl 205 cd% 27
Apr 3/11 cd4 780 vl <40 cd% 30
Jul 17/11 cd4 960 vl <40 cd%33
April 15/12 cd4 1,010 vl <40 cd% 39
April 20/12 Switched to Viramune + Truvada
Aug 2/12 cd4 1040, vl <40, cd% 38
Oct 19 cd4 1,110 vl <40 cd% 41

Offline Bucko

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  • You need a shine, missy!
    • The Spin Cycle
Re: clean
« Reply #67 on: October 21, 2007, 08:43:20 PM »
Interesting, I believe I might have qualified for the said "Blowjob Ninja" title back in the day.  As to what i could do with a pair of numchucks, well... ;D

The biggest difference between then and now for me is that I tend to squat more than kneel and occasionally need help getting up when I'm done.

Brent
(Who is *still* a Blowjob Ninja)
Blessed with brains, talent and gorgeous tits.

The revolutionary smart set reads The Spin Cycle at least once every day.

Blathering on AIDSmeds since 2005, provocative from birth

Offline northernguy

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  • Posts: 1,347
Re: clean
« Reply #68 on: October 22, 2007, 02:25:21 AM »
The biggest difference between then and now for me is that I tend to squat more than kneel and occasionally need help getting up when I'm done.

Brent
(Who is *still* a Blowjob Ninja)

LOL, I can relate. And there's that cracking sound from my knees that sounds like wood splitting when I get up ;D
Apr 28/06 cd4 600 vl 10,600 cd% 25
Nov 8/09 cd4 510 vl 49,5000 cd% 16
Jan 16/10 cd4 660 vl 54,309 cd% 16
Feb 17/10 Started Atripla
Mar 7/10 cd4 710 vl 1,076 cd% 21
Apr 18/10 cd4 920 vl 268 cd% 28
Jun 19/10 cd4 450 vl 60 cd% 25
Aug 15/10 cd4 680 vl 205 cd% 27
Apr 3/11 cd4 780 vl <40 cd% 30
Jul 17/11 cd4 960 vl <40 cd%33
April 15/12 cd4 1,010 vl <40 cd% 39
April 20/12 Switched to Viramune + Truvada
Aug 2/12 cd4 1040, vl <40, cd% 38
Oct 19 cd4 1,110 vl <40 cd% 41

Offline megasept

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  • Steven here...
Re: clean
« Reply #69 on: October 22, 2007, 03:18:13 AM »
I see many ads from people saying they're "clean". I see a lot of posts from "Am I Infected" saying they're "clean" or someone was supposed to be "clean".

I'm wondering what this term is doing to us, to which extent. It seems to me that it is extremely damaging, and I'm not sure where it comes from. What can we do to stop people using "clean" to say that they're not HIV positive?

Milker.

I am sure everyone here is constantly reminded that we are not "clean", are "infected" with a generally sexually transmitted disease (using needles for recreation doesn't improve our standing much either), and for the most part not part of the "innocent victims of AIDS" that deserve our support and efforts of society.

Diseased Pariah News hasn't put out an issue in what? Close to 2 decades? Stonings. Burnings. Bombings. Murder. Censorship. Leper Colonies.  History continues...

OK...So do something about it. A guy I had the hots for (for years) asked me home one day. He blurted out that he was "clean". I told him I was positive, didn't consider myself "dirty" and was offended. And we didn't have "make up" sex either. I am sure he never forgot the conversation. He's actually a very nice guy.

As gay men (this is a harder issue for straight poz), it is absolutely ridiculous that we tolerate "disease free" or "clean" and other terms in our sexual and social culture. I challenge  (usually in private) these words whenever they are spoken and quite often when they are written. I run Posts in Craigslist that challenge notions of "disease free" nonsensical sero-sorting (lying will get you what you want), not to mention all the fears of oral sex and HIV. I use the sex angle first. I explain the differences between this or that STD. Then the failed "sorting" and weeding out of POZ in futile game of self delusion and staying "negative". I even run fake (satiric) ads that mix the worst of everything with heavy doses of ignorance and racism. When someone writes  "me" I let them know how and why they've been fooled. No one has ever "flagged" one of these ads. Maybe it's a neo-"Situationalist" (they had some folks up North I think) response to cultural vapidness and failed unity. This is what I do. I don't count on "professional leaders" to speak for me. I don't count on them to fight our battles. No, "at least we're at the table" political compromise for me. It's better to lose and make a point sometimes. Especially when someone else is watching. Parroting our oppressors is so common we hardly notice it.

 8)  -megasept

« Last Edit: October 22, 2007, 06:34:36 PM by megasept »

Offline Carolann

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  • Posts: 233
Re: clean
« Reply #70 on: October 22, 2007, 11:18:25 AM »
Carol Anne: Uh-huh. Diane: Do you see them? Carol Anne: Uh-uh. Do you? Diane: Uh-uh. Tangina: This house is clean. Diane: You were saying about poltergeist.

Poor Phillly,

It saddens me that he spends so much time and emotional energy on me.  Perhaps it is bitterness or jealousy.  I  don't know.  I still have a meaning full existence.  I work, make excellent money, and contribute to society.  I don't ruminate on designer duds I wore decades ago, as if to prove that I was once somebody.  Because today I am someone.  I too will die of this horrible disease, but my last and most precious moments will be directed at making the lives of others better.  Of improviving the human condition.  While he watches re-runs of Match Game and the Hollywood Squares.

Philly never really bothered with developing his mind.  It was always about the right clothes, and the right body type.  Those things never last.  Sadly the only thing of permanence in his life is HIV.  The one love who never left him.

So go ahead and attack those who have achieved a little more.  Be a bittler simpleton on the backside of those who have suffered greatly so that others may suffer less.


Online Miss Philicia

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Re: clean
« Reply #71 on: October 22, 2007, 11:33:31 AM »
Thanks Carolann, I see you fixed your proxy server keyboard issues you were encountering at that public library.  Now, why IS it that we NEVER see you in the Positive Women's section here?  Huh?  Don't be so koi with your answer!
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline Carolann

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Re: clean
« Reply #72 on: October 22, 2007, 11:44:37 AM »
Philly,

I think that perhaps the switch from psychotropic meds ot anti-psychotic med would be a good choice. 
Tha Borderline Personality Disorder with that hefty case of full blown AIDS has to he a bitch.

"One is the lonliest number that you will ever know.....

Enjoy welfare, you designer wanna be diva!!!

Online Miss Philicia

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Re: clean
« Reply #73 on: October 22, 2007, 11:49:05 AM »
Philly,

I think that perhaps the switch from psychotropic meds ot anti-psychotic med would be a good choice. 
Tha Borderline Personality Disorder with that hefty case of full blown AIDS has to he a bitch.

"One is the lonliest number that you will ever know.....

Enjoy welfare, you designer wanna be diva!!!

Thanks Rob.  I appreciate your medical suggestions and will keep them in mind.  Personal attacks about designer clothing are one thing, but when you start lobbing cruise missiles about teh AIDS on an HIV web site let's just say that you're really showing your colors and scraping the bottom of the barrel.

Oh, and you've also just attacked EVERY OTHER board member living with AIDS and on disability indirectly with that comment.  I'm sure, speaking for many other of my fellow sufferers, that they greatly appreciate your astute commentary.
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline Carolann

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Re: clean
« Reply #74 on: October 22, 2007, 11:51:34 AM »
BTW Philly, KS is not a beauty mark and a full diaper does not equal a full wallet.

Offline Ann

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Re: clean
« Reply #75 on: October 22, 2007, 11:52:16 AM »
Carolann, Philly,

I'm giving both of you time outs.

Philly, I know you think Carolann and Koi are one and the same, but don't you think if we had one shred of evidence to back that up, we would have done something about it? It's not your job to jump on people when you think they are a sock puppet. Tell us your concerns instead, via the Report button, instead of flaming in the forum.

Carolann, I'm also giving you a time out because you've flamed in two threads so far today. I'm putting an end to that right now.

Ann
Condoms are a girl's best friend

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"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline Oceanbeach

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Re: clean
« Reply #76 on: October 22, 2007, 03:37:59 PM »
If I may be bold enough to say... I believe the term "clean" has more recognition with a 12 step program.  As in a few years ago, I ran into an old friends younger sister.  After exchanging pleasantries, she said, her brother has been "clean and sober" for 20 years.  This was an impressive statement to me as I remember the first time, he walked into a meeting and introduced himself as an addict.  The following week, another old friend came to the same meeting and introduced herself as an addict.  He has a house, a wife and a family and  she is a newspaper reporter, is married and also has a family.

In my personal opinion, these two people and thousands of others who have taken the time to work their steps, have the right to use the term "clean".  For those of us living with HIV, I say we all took a shower that day  ;D  Have the best day
Michael

I should probably add that he has seen his girlfriends younger sister pinned in a burning car and die before their eyes.  A few years later, an accident with his own sister where he saw her death as well.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2007, 03:46:40 PM by Sonomabeach »

Offline pozattitude

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Re: clean
« Reply #77 on: October 22, 2007, 04:09:17 PM »
just call me


[attachment deleted by admin]
POSITIVE PEDALERS... We are a group of people living with HIV/AIDS, eliminating stigma through our positive public example.

Offline jason304

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Re: clean
« Reply #78 on: October 25, 2007, 12:55:38 AM »
Hate it when people say  they are clean, well so am I. I take a bath each day, brush teeth, and all the good grooming stuff.  Do they even know if they are really clean in their definition of the word?  Did they have an std screening right after their last trick or whatever you would like to call it?  I agree it is usually narrow minded people who live in a little world all by themselves who think they are clean of everything.   When you even dig at some of these people you find many use drugs or whatever else.  Just think the world would be a nicer place if people would start to look at people for who they are and not what they have.

Offline Queen Tokelove

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Re: clean
« Reply #79 on: October 25, 2007, 03:41:14 AM »
Well in the sense of drugs, I guess I would be dirtier than a mofo but I'm not called Queen Tokelove or The Green Queen for nothing..... ;D Just trying to lighten things up in here. But then since some folks got a lil vacation, I guess I'm a little bit late.... ;D Lighten, oops I mean Light Up!!!!!!



(who happens to be getting dirtier at the moment) ;D
Started Atripla/Ziagen on 9/13/07.
10/31/07 CD4-265 VL- undetectable
2/6/08 CD4- 401 VL- undetectable
5/7/08 CD4- 705 VL- undetectable
6/4/08 CD4- 775 VL- undetectable
8/6/08 CD4- 805 VL- undetectable
11/13/08 CD4- 774 VL--undetectable
2/4/09  CD4- 484  VL- 18,000 (2 months off meds)
3/3/09---Starting Back on Meds---
4/27/09 CD4- 664 VL-- undetectable
6/17/09 CD4- 438 VL- 439
8/09 CD4- 404 VL- 1,600
01-22-10-- CD4- 525 VL- 59,000
Cherish the simple things life has to offer

The Royal Blog

Offline RapidRod

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Re: clean
« Reply #80 on: October 25, 2007, 07:02:45 AM »
I see many ads from people saying they're "clean". I see a lot of posts from "Am I Infected" saying they're "clean" or someone was supposed to be "clean".

I'm wondering what this term is doing to us, to which extent. It seems to me that it is extremely damaging, and I'm not sure where it comes from. What can we do to stop people using "clean" to say that they're not HIV positive?

Milker.

Milker, I don't know which term I dislike the most. "clean" or "that's so gay"

 


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