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Author Topic: Personal Experience/Results with ECGC  (Read 5630 times)

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Offline risred1

  • Member
  • Posts: 419
  • My Source for Supps - www.newyorkbuyersclub.org
Personal Experience/Results with ECGC
« on: November 07, 2007, 11:50:41 AM »
Earlier this year, after my february testing, I decided to add a Green Tea Supplement that was proported to have the equivelent of a dozen cups of Green Tea per Capsule with a high amount of ECGC.

My latest blood tests are in, and my CD4 count did improve from 404 to 484. My VL did also increase from the 15K to 45K.

Naturally this is my experience and is not a scientific result. But this is as high as my CD4 has been since diagnosis about 3 years ago where my CD4 count at that time was in the 415 range.

I take a large list of supps, and my doctor made note that I'm the supplement king in his practice. He didn't comment weather that was a good thing or not, and he remains skeptical without scientific studies to back up results. However, he did say that whatever I'm doing, keep it up. The fact that I was able to have CD4 count up over this period of time was very good.

I have been on a large list of supplements over the last two years. With perhaps a minimal but stable result in CD4 and VL. Only after adding the ECGC did I see this significant jump. 20% improvement is considered significant.

I don't know if ECGC will help you. I don't know if my jump in CD4 is attributable to ECGC. I don't know if my VL increase is a result of ECGC. But it is the one new variable i have introduced over the last 8 months.

Here is my current list of supplements, which I am not advocating. But what I do for myself. Information regarding these supplements is largely from newyorkbuyersclub.org from their supplement data sheets.

Acetylcarnitine 1,500 mg of N-acetyl-L-carnitine, a form of the amino acid, carnitine.
-----------
THIOL NAC (N-Acetyl-l-Cysteine) 1,800 mg. 
------------
600 mg of alpha lipoic acid
------------
3,000 mg MSM Methylsulfonylmethane
------------
Green Tea extract (725mg) mega ECGC  (290mg) 2x a day
------------
Added Protection Without Iron
Six tablets provide:

B-Complex Vitamins:
Vitamin B1 (thiamine mononitrate) 100 mg
Vitamin B2 (riboflavin) 50 mg
Niacin (a form of Vitamin B3). 40 mg
Niacinamide (a form of Vitamin B3) 150 mg
Pantothenic Acid (B5, d-calcium form) 400 mg
Vitamin B6 (pyridoxine HCl) 50 mg
Folic acid 800 mcg
Vitamin B12(on ion exchange resin) 100 mcg
Biotin 300 mcg
Choline (bitartrate) 150 mg

Other Vitamins:
Vitamin A (palmitate, water soluble) 10,000 IU
Beta Carotene (added Vitamin A activity) 5,000 IU
Vitamin C (ascorbic acid, corn-free) 1200 mg
Vitamin D-3 (fish liver oil) 200 IU
Vitamin E (d-alpha tocopheryl succinate) 400 IU
Vitamin K-1 (phytonadione) 60 mcg

Minerals:
Calcium (citrate ascorbate) 500 mg
Magnesium (aspartate-ascorbate complex) 500 mg
Potassium (aspartate-ascorbate complex) 99 mg
Copper (amino acid chelate) 2 mg
Manganese (aspartate-ascorbate complex) 20 mg
Zinc (amino acid chelate) 30 mg
Iodine (kelp) 150 mcg
Chromium GTF (bioactive ChromeMate form) 200 mcg
Selenium (amino acid complex) 200 mcg
Molybdenum (amino acid chelate) 150 mcg
Vanadyl sulfate (vanadium amino acid chelate) 200 mcg
Boron (aspartate-citrate) 2 mg

Other Ingredients:
PABA (para-aminobenzoic acid) 50 mg
Inositol (B-complex growth factor) 50 mg
Bioflavonoids (from citrus fruit) 100 mg
Methionine (DL-form, amino acid) 62.5 mg
Cysteine (L-form, amino acid) 250 mg
------
7-Keto DHEA 100mg of 7-oxo DHEA sulfate (specifically, 3-acetyl-7-oxo-dehydroepiandrosterone).
------
Glutamine 5 grams.
------
Astragalus (MMS) Each bottle, 6 caps a day of, 470 mg of astragalus root.
------
Vitamin D3 (Jarrow) Each bottle, 100 caps. Each capsule, 400 IU of the fat-soluble vitamin D3 in the form of cholecalciferol. Also contains fish oil, soybean oil, gelatin, glycerin and water.
------
Overview: Max DHA(Jarrow) Each bottle, 180 softgels. Eachsoftgel, 607 mg x 4-5 per day. This is a fish oil supplement, containing 500 mg each softgel of fish oil (comprised of different fatty acids) in a natural glyceride form.
------
arro-Dophilus+FOS: Capsules (Jarrow) Each bottle, 100 capsules. Each 280 mg capsule contains more than 3.4 billion beneficial intestinal organisms (at the time of manufacture), along with 210 mg of FructoOligoSaccharides (FOS) that help their replication.
-------
Bifidus Balance Hypoallergenic/Non-dairy
-------
Korean Ginsing time release


risred1 - hiv +
02/07 CD4 404 - 27% - VL 15k
10/07 CD4 484 - 31% - VL 45k
05/08 CD4 414 - 26% - VL 70k
01/09 CD4 365 - 23% - VL 65k
05/09 CD4 291 - 23% - VL 115k - Started Meds - Reyataz/Truvada
06/09 CD4 394 - ?% - VL 1200 - Boosted Reyataz with Norvir and Truvada
07/09 CD4 441 - ?% - VL 118 - Boosted Reyataz with Norvir and Truvada
09/09 CD4 375 - ?% - VL Undetectable - Boosted Reyataz with Norvir and Truvada
12/09 CD4 595 - ?% - VL Undetectable - VIT D 34 - Reyataz/Truvada/Norvir

Offline madbrain

  • Member
  • Posts: 1,208
  • No longer an active member
    • My personal site
Re: Personal Experience/Results with ECGC
« Reply #1 on: November 07, 2007, 03:41:56 PM »
Nice big list of supplements, almost as big as mine :). It's hard to draw any conclusions when you take that many things, though.
I read that EGCG had inhibited HIV binding to tcells in test tubes. But there doesn't seem to be much research about supplementation. The only study I could find online had to be purchased at http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6WCJ-4JYTMW6-FB&_user=10&_coverDate=12%2F31%2F2006&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=5a93187534c2b29312b0c52048300e56 and I didn't want to pay to read it.
I have been taking some green tea/EGCG as well since august, but this is one of the supplements I won't be renewing when I run out due to the limited evidence I could find about its benefits.

Offline risred1

  • Member
  • Posts: 419
  • My Source for Supps - www.newyorkbuyersclub.org
Re: Personal Experience/Results with ECGC
« Reply #2 on: November 07, 2007, 06:30:04 PM »
The reason I posted this commentary is that ECGC from Green Tea is a relatively new idea as a supplement that may have some impact on us with HIV. All the other supplements I have posted have been part of my regimine for about two Years before I added the ECGC supplement. During the first two years, I was stable on CD4, but not significantly different. This is the first serious boost to my CD4 count in my 3 years POZ.

ECGC is being studied. There are Phase 1 and 2 studies underway. So there is more information coming. Most current information is in regards to In-Vitro tests - Test Tubes, which we all know, is not a predictor as to how it will work in the body. But we should be somewhat encouraged as Green tea is a substance which can be consumed with no apparent ill effects.

http://www.webmd.com/news/20060525/green-tea-blocks-hiv
May 25, 2006 -- An antioxidant in green tea may block HIV, the virus that causes AIDS, from attaching to an important molecule on immune system cells.

That finding is based on lab tests done on human blood cells, not people. The lab tests were done by Christina Nance, PhD, and colleagues. Nance works in Houston, at Texas Children's Hospital and Baylor College of Medicine.

In a nutshell, Nance's team wanted to see if epigallocatechin gallate (EGCG), a chemical found in green tea, might block HIV from attaching to the immune system's T-helper cells, thus protecting those T cells from HIV's damage. T-helper cells act as a "general" in directing and activating other immune cells in the fight against HIV.

The results show that EGCG might indeed help do that. It's not yet clear if the findings will have meaning beyond the lab. HIV has proven to be crafty against many different attempts to thwart it from latching onto immune system cells.

The test results were presented in Canada at the North American Research Conference on Complementary & Alternative Medicine, held in Edmonton, Alberta, Canada.
Lab Tests

Nance's team treated some human T cells with three doses of EGCG. For comparison, they didn't expose other T cells to EGCG.

Then they added an HIV component called gp120 to the T cells. The goal was to see if EGCG thwarted gp120 from binding to a certain molecule -- the CD4 molecule -- on T-helper cells.

When gp120 latches onto a T cell's CD4 molecule, it paves the way for HIV to enter -- and eventually disable and kill -- the T cell.

EGCG "markedly inhibited" gp120 from binding to the T cells' CD4 molecules, write Nance and colleagues. The highest EGCG dose had the strongest effect. The lowest dose had the mildest effect. The medium dose had a medium-sized effect.

However, none of the EGCG doses totally blocked gp120 from binding to the CD4 molecule, the study shows.

This isn't the first time that EGCG has been studied in HIV. In 1989, Japanese researchers reported that EGCG may help block an enzyme called reverse transcriptase that slips HIV's genetic material into the host cell's DNA.

-----

I must conceded that this is personal experience where a proper study would be nicer to talk about. However, when your on a list of supplements as i am, adding Green Tea extract was no big deal, and I believe for myself that I got what i was hoping for, a significant boost in CD4.

Always a tricky spot to try to advocate something that is still being studied. And while my CD4 did boost nicely, my VL also Tripled. Logic would also indicate that perhaps the Green Tea could be a factor as well. Although my Doc did not think so, he was not alarmed by my jump, as it was in the realm of my past experience. He did note that an increase in CD4 and percentage was pretty good to see, since he had been predicting for two years that i would be on meds in a year. At this point, we are continuing to wait, and we are now most concerned about where my VL goes. I may still have to move to meds if VL goes too high.
risred1 - hiv +
02/07 CD4 404 - 27% - VL 15k
10/07 CD4 484 - 31% - VL 45k
05/08 CD4 414 - 26% - VL 70k
01/09 CD4 365 - 23% - VL 65k
05/09 CD4 291 - 23% - VL 115k - Started Meds - Reyataz/Truvada
06/09 CD4 394 - ?% - VL 1200 - Boosted Reyataz with Norvir and Truvada
07/09 CD4 441 - ?% - VL 118 - Boosted Reyataz with Norvir and Truvada
09/09 CD4 375 - ?% - VL Undetectable - Boosted Reyataz with Norvir and Truvada
12/09 CD4 595 - ?% - VL Undetectable - VIT D 34 - Reyataz/Truvada/Norvir

Offline John2038

  • Member
  • Posts: 1,529
  • Happiness is a journey, not a destination.
    • HIV Research News (Twitter)
Re: Personal Experience/Results with ECGC
« Reply #3 on: November 08, 2007, 11:23:09 AM »
Hi,

I definitely believe that the supplements and green tea have a very positive effect on our conditions, and as you, I can't demonstrate it.

I'm following the tips posted here:

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=16322.msg206912#msg206912

Such program include a fair amount of supplements and green tea as well.
That's our common point.

And as for you, I have the very strong feeling that either the sport or the supplements or both are highly beneficial if not to improve our condition (but I still believe it can), at least maintain it.

And as for you, I just can't demonstrate it.

So nice reading someone having the same conclusions !

Note
My CD4=509, VL=1732

Offline Dachshund

  • Member
  • Posts: 5,942
Re: Personal Experience/Results with ECGC
« Reply #4 on: November 09, 2007, 10:18:03 PM »
Weird, I've known many people who take absolutely no supplements, aren't on meds yet, and still show great numbers. In fact a friend of mine attributed his great numbers to the vodka and baloney diet he's on. ;D

« Last Edit: November 10, 2007, 06:29:48 AM by Dachshund »

Offline risred1

  • Member
  • Posts: 419
  • My Source for Supps - www.newyorkbuyersclub.org
Re: Personal Experience/Results with ECGC
« Reply #5 on: November 10, 2007, 03:53:46 AM »
i don't think its weird at all.

Supplements are not a requirement in dealing with HIV.

For what ever reason, when I was diagnosed, my CD4 count was around 400. My doc believes that I sero converted about 1 year prior to diagnosis. I was in poor condition, with a fatty liver, high cholesterol, overwieght and middleaged.

So I wasn't going to see a a 7-10 year period before meds as claimed as typical progression of HIV. That's why I reached for the bottle in trying to find ways to keep me above 350.

My counts actually continued to dip close to 350 and then pulled back to around 400. Doc stated that I reached a stability point or equilibrium, but that I need to prepare to go on meds in a year, which was 2 years ago.

As I stated, based upon limited information about ECGC in other trials as treatment for other diseases and from posts, I thought it was worth a try. If selenium was responsible for boosting my CD4 10% from the 350 range. Then ECGC as part of my regimen seems to correlate to the significant boost on my last test.

But everything is not great, my VL also jumped 3 fold as well, which may be indicating I'm moving to the next stage of HIV progression even with a higher CD4. I still have liver and wieght issues although I have improved my conditioning. So its time to loose the wieght and get my liver working better. I'm hoping to last two more years before meds, but you just go test by test and see whats up and what's down.

I'm not thinking that ECGC is a "magic" supplement, but it may provide some support. And my supplements in general are to deal with the issues I've outlined, dealing with symptoms, inflamatory response, and gut issues and support for my fatty liver (great name of a condition.)

And as someone has pointed out I often come across as a rep for NYBC, which I am only a customer of, I don't use them for this supplement, although they do offer it.

For those whom I've assailed with my general fondness of NYBC, I apologize, I'm not trying to shill for them. I'm just probably too big a fan of them and what they do.



 





risred1 - hiv +
02/07 CD4 404 - 27% - VL 15k
10/07 CD4 484 - 31% - VL 45k
05/08 CD4 414 - 26% - VL 70k
01/09 CD4 365 - 23% - VL 65k
05/09 CD4 291 - 23% - VL 115k - Started Meds - Reyataz/Truvada
06/09 CD4 394 - ?% - VL 1200 - Boosted Reyataz with Norvir and Truvada
07/09 CD4 441 - ?% - VL 118 - Boosted Reyataz with Norvir and Truvada
09/09 CD4 375 - ?% - VL Undetectable - Boosted Reyataz with Norvir and Truvada
12/09 CD4 595 - ?% - VL Undetectable - VIT D 34 - Reyataz/Truvada/Norvir

Offline J.R.E.

  • Member
  • Posts: 7,099
  • Joined Dec-2003 Living positive, since 1985.
Re: Personal Experience/Results with ECGC
« Reply #6 on: November 11, 2007, 07:36:00 AM »
Hi,


I can't say that I have had any negative effects from using it. I use the Liquid Phyto-caps, and have for quite a while now. You can read about the green tea supplement I use here :


http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=10798.msg134458#msg134458



Also had this, in my email box this morning :


http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/88229.php




Take care-----Ray


Edited to add, I still use this product daily !
« Last Edit: November 11, 2007, 07:39:24 AM by J.R.E. »
Current Meds ; Viramune, Epzicom, 40mg of simvastatin, 12.5mg of Hydrochlorothiazide.
Metoprolol tartrate 25mg



http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=40802.0

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=45159.0

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=39722.msg495621;topicseen#msg495621

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=46806.0

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=39414.msg491701#msg491701


 In October of 2003, My t-cell count was 16, Viral load was over 500,000, Percentage at that time was 5%. I started my first  HAART regimen  on October 24th,03.

 As of 6/4/14,  t-cells are at 423, Viral load <40

 Current % is at 13% 

  
 62 years young.

 


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