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Author Topic: Oral sex  (Read 10733 times)

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Offline PRMike

  • Member
  • Posts: 175
Oral sex
« on: September 11, 2007, 01:05:45 PM »
Hi I know this may sound like a dumb question coming from a person that has been pos for over 27 years but I was recently asked if a woman can get re-infected by giving a man oral sex,,  my responce was that as long as the man does not have any cuts there is little chance of it happening and if he came in her mouth the chances are low also..
I was giving this info from a Doctor and a counselor....
Am I right or is there any new info on this subject????
thank you
PRMike

Offline BT65

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Re: Oral sex
« Reply #1 on: September 11, 2007, 02:56:36 PM »
I believe the doctor and the counselor are correct.  Ann, our beautiful goderator, is an expert on this subjecct.  Ann, where are you?
I've never killed anyone, but I frequently get satisfaction reading the obituary notices.-Clarence Darrow

Offline milker

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Re: Oral sex
« Reply #2 on: September 11, 2007, 03:06:21 PM »
What do you mean by "re-infected" ?

Milker.
mid-dec: stupid ass
mid-jan: seroconversion
mid-feb: poz
mar 07: cd4 432 (35%) vl 54000
may 07: cd4 399 (28%) vl 27760
jul 07: cd4 403 (26%) vl 99241
oct 07: cd4 353 (24%) vl 29993
jan 08: cd4 332 (26%) vl 33308
mar 08: cd4 392 (23%) vl 75548
jun 08: cd4 325 (27%) vl 45880
oct 08: cd4 197 (20%) vl 154000 <== aids diagnosis
nov 2 08 start Atripla
nov 30 08: cd4 478 (23%) vl 1880 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
feb 19 09: cd4 398 (24%) vl 430 getting there!
apr 23 09: cd4 604 (29%) vl 50 woohoo :D :D
jul 30 09: cd4 512 (29%) vl undetectable :D :D
may 27 10: cd4 655 (32%) vl undetectable :D :D

Now accepting applications from blowjob ninjas™

Offline Ann

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Re: Oral sex
« Reply #3 on: September 11, 2007, 03:56:22 PM »
Hi Mike,

There have been long-term studies of couples where one is positive and one is negative. In the couples who used condoms for anal or vaginal intercourse, but no barrier for oral activities, not one of the negative partners became infected with hiv. Not one. Between the results of these studies and what we know of hiv transmission on the cellular level, we now know it's VERY unlikely to happen through the oral route. The mouth is a VERY hostile place for a fragile virus like hiv.

If your partner is already hiv positive, you really don't need to worry. Re-infection is a rare thing and from what I understand, it's mainly a concern when someone is only recently infected in the first place.

And don't think your questions are "dumb", I don't. The only dumb question is one that doesn't get asked. Smart people ask questions, that's how they get smart. ;)

Ann
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline Ann

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Re: Oral sex
« Reply #4 on: September 11, 2007, 04:01:03 PM »
  Ann, where are you?

I was out watering my garden. ;D
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline PRMike

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Re: Oral sex
« Reply #5 on: September 11, 2007, 06:44:08 PM »
Milker,, Re-infection is when two people that are positive have unprotected sex and one of them ends up getting a different stran of the Virus but from what I understand it happens when your inmune system is weak,  I also have heard that if a person has gone through alot of regimines of medication then the chances of re-infection is higher...
Again I ask if I am wrong please give me the new info,  I am letting myself go by what a doctor has told me and some nurses  thanks again
PRMike

Offline PRMike

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Re: Oral sex
« Reply #6 on: September 11, 2007, 06:45:18 PM »
oh I forgot to say thank you Ann  your a great help...
PRMike

Offline Ann

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Re: Oral sex
« Reply #7 on: September 11, 2007, 07:00:59 PM »
You're welcome Mike, glad to help. :)

Ann
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline milker

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Re: Oral sex
« Reply #8 on: September 11, 2007, 07:03:21 PM »
Milker,, Re-infection is when two people that are positive have unprotected sex and one of them ends up getting a different stran of the Virus but from what I understand it happens when your inmune system is weak,  I also have heard that if a person has gone through alot of regimines of medication then the chances of re-infection is higher...
Again I ask if I am wrong please give me the new info,  I am letting myself go by what a doctor has told me and some nurses  thanks again
Hi,

I wanted to be sure this is what you meant. There have been some discussions about this, most notably http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=8837.0

Happy reading!

Milker.
mid-dec: stupid ass
mid-jan: seroconversion
mid-feb: poz
mar 07: cd4 432 (35%) vl 54000
may 07: cd4 399 (28%) vl 27760
jul 07: cd4 403 (26%) vl 99241
oct 07: cd4 353 (24%) vl 29993
jan 08: cd4 332 (26%) vl 33308
mar 08: cd4 392 (23%) vl 75548
jun 08: cd4 325 (27%) vl 45880
oct 08: cd4 197 (20%) vl 154000 <== aids diagnosis
nov 2 08 start Atripla
nov 30 08: cd4 478 (23%) vl 1880 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
feb 19 09: cd4 398 (24%) vl 430 getting there!
apr 23 09: cd4 604 (29%) vl 50 woohoo :D :D
jul 30 09: cd4 512 (29%) vl undetectable :D :D
may 27 10: cd4 655 (32%) vl undetectable :D :D

Now accepting applications from blowjob ninjas™

Offline madbrain

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Re: Oral sex
« Reply #9 on: September 12, 2007, 09:57:14 PM »
Hi Mike,

There have been long-term studies of couples where one is positive and one is negative. In the couples who used condoms for anal or vaginal intercourse, but no barrier for oral activities, not one of the negative partners became infected with hiv. Not one. Between the results of these studies and what we know of hiv transmission on the cellular level, we now know it's VERY unlikely to happen through the oral route. The mouth is a VERY hostile place for a fragile virus like hiv.

If your partner is already hiv positive, you really don't need to worry. Re-infection is a rare thing and from what I understand, it's mainly a concern when someone is only recently infected in the first place.

And don't think your questions are "dumb", I don't. The only dumb question is one that doesn't get asked. Smart people ask questions, that's how they get smart. ;)

Ann


Then again there is this study :
http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/resources/factsheets/oralsexqa.htm

I believe I became infected through oral, as I used condoms for all activities except oral.
I do have bad gums, they bleed every other day when I brush. And now that I am poz, even when I chew food sometimes. Still, if I had known the risk was as high as that study found out, I would never have done oral without condom in the first place.

But since we are talking about super-infection here (secondary HIV infection), which also has been confirmed in very few people through any means, I would have to agree with you in this case that the risk is pretty low.

Offline Ann

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Re: Oral sex
« Reply #10 on: September 13, 2007, 06:55:18 AM »
That SF study doesn't prove much other than patient report is notoriously unreliable.

Ann




[attachment deleted by admin]
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline keyite

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Re: Oral sex
« Reply #11 on: September 13, 2007, 04:43:48 PM »
Madbrain, you're not alone in believing this to be their transmission route. I know of close to a dozen people on this board who make this claim about their infection. Science may not prove much one way but, by implication, that means it doesn't prove much the other way either.

I have no doubt it is a viable, if relatively rare, transmission route. I also accept it is likely to be even more rare in the re-infection scenario.

Offline SoSadTooBad

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Re: Oral sex
« Reply #12 on: September 15, 2007, 01:34:30 AM »
Add me to the list of 'notoriously unreliable' people who believes they became infected through oral sex.  I did not have gum issues, but for my whole life I have had very large tonsils, and been very susceptible to sore throats and tonsilitis.  Never had receptive or insertive anal sex without a condom, no IV drug use, and no recreational drug use. 

Offline madbrain

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Re: Oral sex
« Reply #13 on: October 21, 2007, 04:27:58 PM »
Hi,

That SF study doesn't prove much other than patient report is notoriously unreliable.

Ann




Maybe, or maybe not. I just had dinner with a guy on friday night who told me that he absolutely never does anal sex, protected or not, and he came out to me as positive during dinner. He said he had gum problems as well. Of course, I have no way of telling if he was lying or not, but I don't think that he would have any reason to. Personally, I wouldn't discard the whole SF study. I think having a paper titled "oral transmission of HIV, reality or fiction ?" is irresponsible. I admit that I haven't read the whole paper you attached yet, and it is interesting, but I have absolutely zero doubt that the oral route for HIV transmission works. The real question is just how often.

Offline srmn98

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Re: Oral sex
« Reply #14 on: October 21, 2007, 05:00:26 PM »
I never had vaginal sex without a condom -- and I was so careful I always checked afterwards to make sure the condoms weren't broken. No drugs, no other risk factors -- just oral. And I don't have any gum problems. That's just my experience ...


Offline Queen Tokelove

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Re: Oral sex
« Reply #15 on: October 21, 2007, 05:30:47 PM »
Ok so are you both saying you were infected from oral?
Started Atripla/Ziagen on 9/13/07.
10/31/07 CD4-265 VL- undetectable
2/6/08 CD4- 401 VL- undetectable
5/7/08 CD4- 705 VL- undetectable
6/4/08 CD4- 775 VL- undetectable
8/6/08 CD4- 805 VL- undetectable
11/13/08 CD4- 774 VL--undetectable
2/4/09  CD4- 484  VL- 18,000 (2 months off meds)
3/3/09---Starting Back on Meds---
4/27/09 CD4- 664 VL-- undetectable
6/17/09 CD4- 438 VL- 439
8/09 CD4- 404 VL- 1,600
01-22-10-- CD4- 525 VL- 59,000
Cherish the simple things life has to offer

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Offline jkinatl2

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Re: Oral sex
« Reply #16 on: October 21, 2007, 05:31:46 PM »
At some point, the issue will need to be resolved. If this is a support site at the detriment of scientific accuracy, or if this is a scientifically accurate site at the detriment of support.

"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

Welcome Thread

Offline Bucko

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Re: Oral sex
« Reply #17 on: October 21, 2007, 07:02:31 PM »
 
At some point, the issue will need to be resolved. If this is a support site at the detriment of scientific accuracy, or if this is a scientifically accurate site at the detriment of support.



I think that we'd need to solve the "saliva riddle". How can a virus as fragile as HIV possibly survive being in a place as inhospitable as a mouth filled with saliva (or a throat, for that matter). This is the crux of the matter as far as I'm concerned.

And at the risk of upsetting some (though it's not my intent at all), I would like to mention that for years I was someone who felt that the only way i could be infected was through oral sex. Although I never denied that I'd had unprotected anal sex, it seemed as though too much time had passed between my last time bottoming (or topping unprotected, for that matter) to have played a factor in my seroconversion. This mindset was achieved through a combination of denial and selective memory and lasted for many years, well into the treatment phase following my eventual diagnosis in 1996.

I am reminded of a fellow member (who is no longer active on AIDSmeds) who claimed to have been infected through cunnilingus, although he also acknowledged the paternity of at least one child. He would vociferously deny that his unprotected encounters could have resulted in his seroconversion and left all upset.

Color me deeply skeptical.   
Blessed with brains, talent and gorgeous tits.

The revolutionary smart set reads The Spin Cycle at least once every day.

Blathering on AIDSmeds since 2005, provocative from birth

Online Miss Philicia

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Re: Oral sex
« Reply #18 on: October 21, 2007, 07:11:37 PM »
"selective memory" is the major reason I never comment on this recurring topic, aside from the fact you can't counter anecdotal dewdrops on teh intrawebz
"I’ve slept with enough men to know that I’m not gay"

Offline Sdgirl

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Re: Oral sex
« Reply #19 on: October 21, 2007, 08:07:59 PM »
PLEASE don't take oral away from me!!!

It's rare that I respond to threads but come on............it's the only "latex free" fun I have!!

Just sayin........
"Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate.  Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure.  It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us.  We ask ourselves.."Who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous?  Actually, who are you not to be?"

Offline Bucko

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Re: Oral sex
« Reply #20 on: October 21, 2007, 08:09:54 PM »
PLEASE don't take oral away from me!!!

It's rare that I respond to threads but come on............it's the only "latex free" fun I have!!

Just sayin........

This is regarding the possibility of passing HIV to the fellator, SDG. As a dues-paying member of the poz club, I say get out those knee pads and chow down.
Blessed with brains, talent and gorgeous tits.

The revolutionary smart set reads The Spin Cycle at least once every day.

Blathering on AIDSmeds since 2005, provocative from birth

Online Miss Philicia

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Re: Oral sex
« Reply #21 on: October 21, 2007, 08:30:58 PM »
Ninja Powers ACTIVATE!
"I’ve slept with enough men to know that I’m not gay"

Offline kentb

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Re: Oral sex
« Reply #22 on: October 21, 2007, 10:16:11 PM »
 I think many people prefer to believe they were infected via oral sex because they are embarrassed to admit the truth about how they really became infected.  It amazes me that if you became positive from one route vs. another that you can then say " Oh I got infected through oral sex not from letting someone fuck me unprotected!"  As if this somehow justifies or elevates them over those of us who admit how we became infected.  I know there are lots of reasons people may give for the reason they are infected, none of the least of which is having to explain to their respective partner that perhaps they weren't faithful.  The conversation probably goes something like this.  "Honey I'm HIV Positive, I screwed around on you, but I didn't let him fuck me, I just performed oral sex on him and here I came up Positive!" 
In the end it doesn't matter how you became infected, you can still come here for education and support, the medications are not going to work better for you because you seroconverted from one type of sex or another.  The social stigma is still the same though.  You are HIV Positive and you now have a responsibility if you post in a public forum to be completely honest, so as to avoid public panic in the Am I infected Forum, as well as  understand when you make certain statements to make yourself somehow look better in whatever convoluted context,  you damage public opinion of people who are just like you HIV Positive, because those who are negative will see us as completely infectious in all scenarios, and that's just not true, accurate or fair.
Kindest Regards to All,

Kent

Offline keyite

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Re: Oral sex
« Reply #23 on: October 22, 2007, 09:52:08 AM »
One thing is starkly clear: it won't matter in the least how many people swing through the doors of Aidsmeds and claim they were infected by performing oral sex (and Lord knows they keep on arriving). The prevailing paradigm on these forums will still be that it is impossible to get infected that way and, by implication, those that make the claim are in denial / mistaken / suffer from selective memory / irresponsible because they frighten the horses / trying to make themselves out to be better than others / just plain lying.

Granted, some may indeed be mistaken (and clearly Bucko was for a while) but every single one of us?? That would seem pretty extraordinary. I obviously realise by now that my 'anecdote' counts for zilch, but no, I wasn't infected via unprotected anal sex (because I didn't have any within the period of possible infection), drug use or a blood transfusion. I won't know with any absolute certainty exactly how I was infected, none of us do at the end of the day, but the normal process of elimination leads to the conclusion that it is overwhelmingly likely to have happened via oral sex.

What's really strange is that these forums are also the only place - on or off the net - where I encounter such dire lack of nuance on this subject (including in the interpretation of 'scientific accuracy').

As for Kent's argument that it doesn't matter how you were infected. I certainly agree that in many ways it doesn't matter, but ultimately this thread and his post are testament that it does matter.

It matters because it speaks directly to how pozzies negotiate future sexual encounters. It is not about generating 'public panic' or perpetuating the idea that we are 'completely infectious in all scenarios'. Rather it is acknowledging that it happens relatively rarely and probably only with certain circumstances present, but that it does seem to happen.
It matters because the counsellor at the clinic where I was diagnosed told me that, in his experience, people who believe they were infected via oral sex (and yes, he says it happens fairly regularly amongst his client group) have a much harder time adjusting to sex and intimacy post-diagnosis. That has been an issue for me too for a while, and although I wouldn't say it's entirely resolved, I do think I have it in better perspective now.

And it certainly matters because it directly influences the support Kent wishes us to be able to obtain from these forums. You need pretty thick skin to put up with the seemingly inevitable barrage of disbelief, incredulity, rolling of eyes and/or any number of the implied put-downs I outlined at the beginning of this post. Just recently someone in the 'I Just Tested Poz' forum was met with anything but support and subjected to a pretty rough ride (including being called full of BS - quite rightly a warning by moderators was given). To be fair, this was probably about more than simply the guy claiming he was infected via oral sex, but ultimately it demonstrated pretty well what often happens. Of course, he now seems to have disappeared for good and who could blame him...

Offline chaton

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Re: Oral sex
« Reply #24 on: October 22, 2007, 10:33:56 AM »
I had hoped that by now the canard about the serodiscordant couple studies on oral sex would have stopped being bandied about. It is very bad science to use it to "prove" that HIV can't be acquired orally from a seropositive partner (it can give you an upper bound for probably of transmission, the number of people in the study gives you the statistical power of that bound). It is even worse science to "prove" that HIV can't be acquired orally. May I remind you that HIV is often transmitted from people who themselves have been contaminated recently, because of their high viral load? A recent study put that at roughly half the cases. This is a population unlikely to be represented in these studies. The most contaminant are those who are seronegative, on the cusp of seroconversion. With blood viral load of 1m or more, who can fail to see that semen viral load is likely to be so high that it can on occasion offset the saliva defenses (in particular when sperm is directly shot to gums and/or tonsils)

Offline srmn98

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Re: Oral sex
« Reply #25 on: October 22, 2007, 03:14:34 PM »
I really don't like this "selective memory" idea.

I don't think any of us want to think that it is possible to get HIV from oral sex -- we have given up so much already by having to be safe with condoms at all times. It sucks. And feeling that oral sex is a risk sucks too -- I wish it were not so.

I'm not saying that I was most likely infected by oral because I am hiding some other more "shameful" activity. I'm not doing it to scare people. I'm not doing it to make anybody angry or to argue with anybody. But these are the facts of my life and this is my experience to share. You can choose to believe me or not --- but I know my risk factors and I know that I am being honest with myself and with all of you. There is no reason for me to have selective memory at this point.

Yes, I suppose it is possible that somehow through a condom that was somehow defective, I got HIV. Although I know I never had a condom break and it is my understanding that condoms are designed to break if they are faulty. So, I do not believe I was infected through having sex with a condom. I just don't believe it. And if that were the case, then condoms would feel much more risky to me and we all know that when condoms are used correctly, the chances of transmitting HIV are very, very low to none -- is this correct to say ?

Check out this study from 2007:

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn12354-tonsils-may-help-transmit-hiv-during-oral-sex.html


I don't allow my boyfriend to perform oral sex on me because while I think the risk is very, very low --  my personal choice is that it is too risky for my comfort level. I understand the chances are very, very low -- but then again --- as far as I am concerned, this is how I got HIV.

There is more to my story. And that leaves me with one final question. If I am thread hijacking let me know and I can post this somewhere else. My Western Blot is Positive over the course of the one year I have tested positive. I show no viral load and CD4 counts in the 1400 range. I never had unprotected sex other than oral. I keep asking my self -- if Oral Sex is so low risk -- if I really could not have gotten it that way --- what else could be going on ? I know the Western Blot is incredibly specific and all my bands are positive. But what are the chances .....  to contract HIV in the lowest risk activity AND to somehow have the luck to control it naturally ? Chances are low. But, that's my story ---  low risk does not equal no risk.

I just think that science has more to study, more to find, etc. And I think more oral sex studies need to be done before we can say anything for 100 %. That's all.

 


Offline wishihadacat

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Re: Oral sex
« Reply #26 on: October 22, 2007, 03:56:38 PM »
Needless to say, the problems that would have to be overcome in any long-term study to determine whether HIV can be transmitted by cunnilingual activity alone are, uh, interesting.  I can just picture the CDC signing up 1000 virginal females and hooking them up with a team of official HIV positive cunninguists, with followup exams to establish that any seroconverted subject was still a virgin.

I make light of this, but it's obviously a serious issue, affecting the partners we already have and when disclosure to new partners is  responsible and appropriate. I'd love to believe that Ann's take on this question is correct, but the idea that I might pass HIV to an unknowing "friend" is extremely disturbing.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2007, 04:02:06 PM by wishihadacat »
Your name here  X_______________

Offline whizzer

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Re: Oral sex
« Reply #27 on: October 22, 2007, 06:01:21 PM »
Hi Mike,

There have been long-term studies of couples where one is positive and one is negative. In the couples who used condoms for anal or vaginal intercourse, but no barrier for oral activities, not one of the negative partners became infected with hiv. Not one.

Ann


I have seen this stated many times by a few people both here and in other fora.  No one has ever provided a link to any of these studies.

Could you please provide us with one?  More than one study would be really nice.  That way we can read just how the research was conducted.

Thanks so much,
Whiz

Offline srmn98

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Re: Oral sex
« Reply #28 on: October 22, 2007, 06:17:15 PM »
Here are some studies:  (I took this from another thread-- jkinatl2 posted this for me in another thread awhile back):

"

Oral Dis.   2006   May   ;12   (3):219-28 16700731   
Oral transmission of HIV, reality or fiction? An update.
J   Campo , M A   Perea , J   Del Romero , J   Cano , V   Hernando , A   Bascones
Human immunodeficiency virus (HIV) and many other viruses can be isolated in blood and body fluids, including saliva, and can be transmitted by genital-genital and especially anal-genital sexual activity. The risk of transmission of HIV via oral sexual practices is very low. Unlike other mucosal areas of the body, the oral cavity appears to be an extremely uncommon transmission route for HIV. We present a review of available evidence on the oral-genital transmission of HIV and analyse the factors that act to protect oral tissues from infection, thereby reducing the risk of HIV transmission by oral sex. Among these factors we highlight the levels of HIV RNA in saliva, presence of fewer CD4+ target cells, presence of IgA antibodies in saliva, presence of other infections in the oral cavity and the endogenous salivary antiviral factors lysozyme, defensins, thrombospondin and secretory leucocyte protease inhibitor (SLPI). Oral Diseases (2006) 12, 219-228.

http://www.aidsmap.com/en/news/2AF5DF5C-ECEF-4854-80BA-09F86B483A02.asp   (note this study is from 2002)

http://gateway.nlm.nih.gov/MeetingAbstracts/102255339.html

The Romero study used male/female relationships almost exclusively, with either male or female partner positive. The viral loads varied widely, as did the treatment options (or lack thereof) during the ten years of the study.

The Page-Shafer "HOT" study used homosexual males with different partners, studied both receptive and insertive oral sex.

The abstract of the study is also here:

http://www.aegis.com/conferences/iac/2002/TuPeC4872.html

An updated abstract of the Romero study is in:

Oral Dis.   2006 May   ;12   (3):219-28 16700731

An earlier Page-Shafer study regarding oral HIv transmission:

Risk of HIV infection attributable to oral sex among men who have sex with men and in the population of men who have sex with men.
AIDS. 16(17):2350-2352, November 22, 2002.
Page-Shafer, Kimberly a,b; Shiboski, Caroline H b; Osmond, Dennis H c; Dilley, James d; McFarland, Willi e; Shiboski, Steve C c; Klausner, Jeffrey D e; Balls, Joyce a; Greenspan, Deborah b; Greenspan, John S b

Other relevant studies, many of which reference either/both Romero and/or Page-Shafer, among others:

http://www.aidsonline.com/pt/re/aids/fulltext.00002030-199904160-00021.htm;jsessionid=G1nGq7PY37yynzdYy7CHvpqRwHKzNFS7J3gPvGYzGKp6Tz2nvFdx!1330140564!181195629!8091!-1?nav=search&searchid=1&index=21&results=1&count=10

This one is from 1999.
"

Offline srmn98

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Re: Oral sex
« Reply #29 on: October 22, 2007, 06:20:58 PM »
One more thing -- to quote the first study I posted on this thread:

"
The new findings provide biological data to complement clinical and epidemiological evidence suggesting that HIV can – in exceptional cases – spread through oral sex, according to John Greenspan, director of the AIDS Research Institute at the University of California in San Francisco, US. "It's a further piece of the jigsaw puzzle," he told New Scientist.

But he and others note that while HIV transmission can occur through oral sex, it appears to happen very rarely. Experts have estimated that at most 4 out of every 10,000 oral sex exposures result in infection, compared with 1 out of every 200 to 1000 episodes of genital contact.
"

So -- there it is in a July 2007 study ---  YES, it is possible to spread HIV by oral sex according to these scientists. Rare, but possible. So maybe all of us selective memory folks are the 4 out of 10,000. Lucky us.



Offline jkinatl2

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Re: Oral sex
« Reply #30 on: October 22, 2007, 06:22:43 PM »
Whizzer, you are being disengenuous.

I have supplied the data on multiple occasions, and provided ample links. That you have chosen not to research them, or to ignore them, is immaterial.

Once again, an abridged list:

Study: Oral Sex Not Linked to HIV Risk
In a ten-year couples study, a cohort of 135 HIV-negative (110 women and 25 men) Spanish heterosexuals in a sexual relationship with an HIV-positive partner were evaluated. Of the women, 96 had performed fellatio on their HIV-positive partner, giving an estimated total of 8,965 instances of unprotected fellatio, with ejaculation occurring in the mouth on an estimated 3,060 occasions (34%). Ninety-eight HIV-positive men carried out unprotected cunnilingus on their HIV-negative partner. Among the 25 HIV-negative men with a positive partner, 12 had unprotected cunnilingus, with an estimated 614 total number of episodes. Twenty-four of the 25 men had passive fellatio, with a total of 1,081 instances of fellatio without a condom performed by the HIV-positive partner. In this study, over 19,000 instances of unprotected oral sex did not lead to a single case of HIV transmission. This data adds to the growing number of studies that suggest a significantly lower risk of HIV transmission from oral sex as compared to anal or vaginal intercourse. It is speculated that certain factors may increase the risk of transmitting HIV via oral sex, such as the HIV-positive person having a high viral load, the HIV-infected person ejaculating into the mouth of their partner, the presence of another sexually transmitted disease, and poor oral health. Although the authors concluded that study results point to a very low probability of HIV transmission related to oral sex, other STDs such as syphilis and gonorrhea can be easily transmitted in this manner.
Romero J et al. Evaluating the risk of HIV transmission through unprotected orogenital sex. AIDS 16:9 1269-97, 2002.

http://www.aegis.com/pubs/hepp/2004/HEPP2004-0204.html

http://www.aidsmap.com/en/news/2AF5DF5C-ECEF-4854-80BA-09F86B483A02.asp

From an article referencing the Kimberly Page-Shafer HOT study:



Kimberly Page Shafer, PhD, MPH, and co-workers at the University of California, San Francisco, followed 194 HIV-negative gay men for two years. In repeated interviews, the men said that their only sexual activity was to perform oral sex on other men. Repeated HIV tests showed that not one of the men got the AIDS virus -- even those with HIV-infected sex partners.


"Oral sex is safer sex," Shafer tells WebMD. "It is a much safer alternative to anal sex, and other data show it is safer than anal sex using a condom. Oral sex with a condom may be the safest thing you can do, but 98% of people in our study don't use condoms -- and [many of] them swallowed the semen. And a good percentage of them -- one in five -- have sex with an HIV-positive partner."

http://www.webmd.com/news/20010814/oral-sex-carries-very-low-risk-of-hiv-transmission

www.caps.ucsf.edu/research/portfolio/2004/HOT.pdf

(warning, link above goes to pdf file)

http://hivinsite.ucsf.edu/InSite?page=pr-rr-05


*edited for typo, and to repeat my mantra that the plural of anecdote is not data.

I will cheerfully post my lengthy former postings on the topic, but they seem pointless in this discussion. I simply follow the evidence and the first-tiered peer-reviewed science. Obviously, it has cost me a great deal of fellowship and support on this forum. But that's a sacrifice I am willing to make, to keep at least ONE fact-based online informational resource available on teh interwebbings.

« Last Edit: October 22, 2007, 06:26:33 PM by jkinatl2 »
"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

Welcome Thread

Offline whizzer

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Re: Oral sex
« Reply #31 on: October 22, 2007, 06:34:42 PM »
Not being disingenuous JK; I've never seen the links before, but thanks for providing them.

It annoys me that you would jump to a conclusion that I have not studied the links you have provided.  If I had seen them and read them I WOULD NOT HAVE ASKED ANYONE TO PROVIDE THEM.

And if I haven't seen them, I'm sure others haven't either.  So what's so terrible about citing them when we are discussing such a tender subject?  People come and go here all the time, and new arrivals (or us fools who have  had the temerity to not read every post you have written)  would benefit from seeing references from time to time.

Thanks again,
Whiz

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: Oral sex
« Reply #32 on: October 22, 2007, 06:41:02 PM »
Actually Whizzles,

The links have been provided on numerous previous occasions.

MtD

Offline whizzer

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Re: Oral sex
« Reply #33 on: October 22, 2007, 06:51:40 PM »
Actually Whizzles,

The links have been provided on numerous previous occasions.

MtD

Perhaps so, but that's no reason to get all pissy when someone asks for them to be repeated.

And lest anyone interpret my questioning the wrong way, I know exactly how I was infected with HIV, and I can assure you it was NOT through oral sex.

Offline jkinatl2

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Re: Oral sex
« Reply #34 on: October 22, 2007, 06:55:34 PM »
But YOU yourself quoted the studies in another thread.

And the following threads directly, and with links, provided the information you claim to have never seen. In more than one of the referenced threads, you not only participated, but quoted the studies.

a quick search:

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=15891.0

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=2511.0

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=2244.0

(in this thread, whizzer, you reference the page-shafer discussion directly. This is in addition to the romero study)

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=12630.0

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=10457.0


http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=10310.msg127650#msg127650

The quajtification we use at AIDSMEDS is based on three distinct and separate studies conducted over the course of two decades with serodiscordasnt couples. We do not rely on anecdotal evidence insofar as HIV transmission is concerned, especially not now, where the current state of the scientific and epidemiological art is as advanced as it is. With more people living longer and healthier lives, a large enough collection of serodiscordant couples has finally emerged to create blind studies where HIV transmission routes can be studied with scientific quantification.

Here are some of the  scientific findings.


No incident HIV infections among MSM who practice exclusively oral sex.
Int Conf AIDS 2004 Jul 11-16; 15:(abstract no. WePpC2072)??Balls JE, Evans JL, Dilley J, Osmond D, Shiboski S, Shiboski C, Klausner J, McFarland W, Greenspan D, Page-Shafer K?University of California, San Francisco, San Francisco, United States

Oral transmission of HIV, reality or fiction? An update
J Campo1, MA Perea1, J del Romero2, J Cano1, V Hernando2, A Bascones1
Oral Diseases (2006) 12, 219–228

AIDS:  Volume 16(17)  22 November 2002  pp 2350-2352
Risk of HIV infection attributable to oral sex among men who have sex with men and in the population of men who have sex with men

Page-Shafer, Kimberlya,b; Shiboski, Caroline Hb; Osmond, Dennis Hc; Dilley, Jamesd; McFarland, Willie; Shiboski, Steve Cc; Klausner, Jeffrey De; Balls, Joycea; Greenspan, Deborahb; Greenspan

Page-Shafer K, Veugelers PJ, Moss AR, Strathdee S, Kaldor JM, van Griensven GJ. Sexual risk behavior and risk factors for HIV-1 seroconversion in homosexual men participating in the Tricontinental Seroconverter Study, 1982-1994 [published erratum appears in Am J Epidemiol 1997 15 Dec; 146(12):1076]. Am J Epidemiol 1997, 146:531-542.

Studies which show the fallacy of relying on anecdotal evidence as opposed to carefully controlled study insofar as HIV transmission risk is concerned:

Jenicek M. "Clinical Case Reporting" in Evidence-Based Medicine. Oxford: Butterworth–Heinemann; 1999:117

Saltzman SP, Stoddard AM, McCusker J, Moon MW, Mayer KH. Reliability of self-reported sexual behavior risk factors for HIV infection in homosexual men. Public Health Rep. 1987 102(6):692–697.Nov–Dec;

Catania JA, Gibson DR, Chitwood DD, Coates TJ. Methodological problems in AIDS behavioral research: influences on measurement error and participation bias in studies of sexual behavior. Psychol Bull. 1990 Nov;108(3):339–362.

"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

Welcome Thread

Offline emeraldize

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Re: Oral sex
« Reply #35 on: October 22, 2007, 07:01:02 PM »
PLEASE don't take oral away from me!!!

It's rare that I respond to threads but come on............it's the only "latex free" fun I have!!

Just sayin........

Hey SD
It's rare that you respond cuz you're actually having fu   n!  ;)
Rub it in, doll. Hope you're well.
dilEMma

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: Oral sex
« Reply #36 on: October 22, 2007, 07:07:26 PM »
Perhaps so, but that's no reason to get all pissy when someone asks for them to be repeated.

Whizzles,

I wasn't getting pissy. There is nothing in my response to you that could be construed as me getting pissy. Trust me, if or when I get pissy you'll know about it.

MtD
(Who will not be verballed)

Offline wishihadacat

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Re: Oral sex
« Reply #37 on: October 22, 2007, 07:26:46 PM »
Hey Em!

Okay, there are two directions this thread can take from here, and one is infinitely more tasteful than the other.

Hmmmm, whaddya think?


Your name here  X_______________

Offline jkinatl2

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Re: Oral sex
« Reply #38 on: October 22, 2007, 07:37:07 PM »
I have thoroughly exhausted my information on this matter, and respectfully withdraw.

"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

Welcome Thread

Offline emeraldize

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Re: Oral sex
« Reply #39 on: October 22, 2007, 09:22:51 PM »
Dearest Wish

Is this a Road Less Travelled moment?
Or, a Road Infrequently Travelled moment?
Or, an Infrequently Roadie Less Travelled moment?

That will make all the difference.
Frost.

Em

Offline PRMike

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Re: Oral sex
« Reply #40 on: October 23, 2007, 07:54:43 AM »
Hi everyone, I pray that everyone are well and I must say that when I posted this Question I was expecting a difference of opinion and I surely did get it and I hope that we will all get along and continue to help each other, it is bad enough that we have to live with this...
ok thank you for your time and may you all have a great day
bye for now always PRMike
PRMike

Offline Nadine

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Re: Oral sex
« Reply #41 on: October 23, 2007, 08:28:33 AM »
I have seen this stated many times by a few people both here and in other fora.  No one has ever provided a link to any of these studies.

Could you please provide us with one?  More than one study would be really nice.  That way we can read just how the research was conducted.

Thanks so much,
Whiz

Whizzer...I have no links for any studies for ya...just wanted to let you know that my husband tested positive over 2 years ago...we have protected sex, unprotected oral...last test I took (about a month ago)  I still remain negative.  Thats all I can tell ya.

Offline jack

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Re: Oral sex
« Reply #42 on: October 23, 2007, 08:35:35 AM »
we have been round and round on this one. For some reason many refuse to believe HIV can be transmitted orally .  Most of the tests or trials they use as evidence are inherently flawed.  There are few controls and little observation of sexual activity. They are in truth sophistaced surveys or polls,they do not constitute what any reputable scientist or the governments would define as a test or trial.
Maybe the odds of getting HIV are less than being struck by lightning,but that doesnt mean I am going to out and play golf in a lightning storm.
And for some reason these people continue to believe those of us infected via oral sex are lying or have some hidden agenda. This is an anonymous MB,why would we lie? I do not pretend to understand their motives when the tests and trials they cite are at best anecdotal. Maybe some people just want to be experts on the subject? I really dont get it,but thats nothing new.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2007, 08:37:18 AM by jack »

Offline jack

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Re: Oral sex
« Reply #43 on: October 23, 2007, 08:39:10 AM »
On yeah, I had unprotected sex with my wife for several years before I discovered I was positive, all kinds of sex, and she is negative. Go figure.

Offline bocker3

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Re: Oral sex
« Reply #44 on: October 23, 2007, 09:36:59 PM »
I can't understand why some folks are so hell bent to call others liars when it comes to this topic.  There has been nothing that I've ever read that states it is impossible to acquire HIV via oral routes.  It may be very, very difficult, but not impossible.  (For the record, I'm sure that I got infected via anal sex, and I do let my negative partner go down me, although, not to "completion"  -- so I've no personal agenda here).  There seem to be 2 topics on these forums that get people in a "I'm right and your wrong" mode -- oral sex transmission and the LTS vs. newbies.  I think both issues come down the following -- show each other respect and approach each other from a view of positive intent.  This is supposed to be a support site.  I know, I know, people are concerned with the Worried Wells.......  frankly, if they can't handle the fact that there may be a minute chance of infection via oral sex (if the VL is just right and the mouth's condition is just right, etc, etc) then they have bigger problems than we can deal with.  Calling a member of this site a liar out of fear that we may cause a panic in the "Am I Infected" room, is nuts, in my opinion.
Let's all just stop being so definite in this topic -- until a CONCLUSIVE study is published.  No one is going to win.  Let's get back to supporting each other.

Mike
Atripla - Started 12/05
Reyataz/Norvir - Added 6/06
Labs - Pre-Meds
Sep05 T=350/25% VL98,559
Nov05 288/18%  47,564
Current Labs
May2013 691/31% <20

Offline NycJoe

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Re: Oral sex
« Reply #45 on: October 23, 2007, 09:42:50 PM »
Quote
I can't understand why some folks are so hell bent to call others liars when it comes to this topic.  There has been nothing that I've ever read that states it is impossible to acquire HIV via oral routes.  It may be very, very difficult, but not impossible.  (For the record, I'm sure that I got infected via anal sex, and I do let my negative partner go down me, although, not to "completion"  -- so I've no personal agenda here).  There seem to be 2 topics on these forums that get people in a "I'm right and your wrong" mode -- oral sex transmission and the LTS vs. newbies.  I think both issues come down the following -- show each other respect and approach each other from a view of positive intent.  This is supposed to be a support site.  I know, I know, people are concerned with the Worried Wells.......  frankly, if they can't handle the fact that there may be a minute chance of infection via oral sex (if the VL is just right and the mouth's condition is just right, etc, etc) then they have bigger problems than we can deal with.  Calling a member of this site a liar out of fear that we may cause a panic in the "Am I Infected" room, is nuts, in my opinion.
Let's all just stop being so definite in this topic -- until a CONCLUSIVE study is published.  No one is going to win.  Let's get back to supporting each other.

Mike

Wow..that is about the most respectful, reasonable and supportive post I have seen so far on here.  I second all of the above..Joe

Offline srmn98

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Re: Oral sex
« Reply #46 on: October 23, 2007, 09:56:46 PM »
Mike,

Well said, I agree. To take things a step further, I personally think that we as a community have the moral obligation to help educate HIV + and - people alike -- whether through this board, in our day to day lives, or however else we choose. It is clear to me that more studies on oral sex must be done. We are looking at one study with 135 people where HIV was not transmitted orally, and then another study that estimates 4 out of 10,000 cases could result in infection. Clearly, science has not caught up to some our personal experiences. I think that anybody interested (or not interested for that matter) should know both sides of the issue. We should all be well informed. And if all of us decide from a limited amount of information one way or the other, we are doing the entire community a disservice. And accusing those of us who believe we were infected orally as having selective memory just makes me feel sad for everybody. Shouldn't we be learning from one another ????

Science is not absolute fact. Science is evolving constantly. New studies come out every day -- we learn new things about all sorts of scientific issues every day. Science is coming up with hypothesis and trying to gather enough evidence to make discoveries. Scientists peer review ideas and theories constantly. Most of us are not scientists. Some of us may be. Either way, statements in science are hypothesis, statements of what might be true. If there is enough evidence, i.e. the earth revolves around the sun, we consider these hypothesis are well supported enough to be facts. I'm no scientist -- but for me there is not enough information for people to be so adamant that it is impossible to transmit HIV through oral. It's just not a fact. And to tell people that it IS fact, in my opinion, is irresponsible. People, particularly those asking here, should be given both sides of the equation.



Offline B2

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Re: Oral sex
« Reply #47 on: October 23, 2007, 11:11:06 PM »
If I am thread hijacking let me know and I can post this somewhere else. My Western Blot is Positive over the course of the one year I have tested positive. I show no viral load and CD4 counts in the 1400 range. I never had unprotected sex other than oral. I keep asking my self -- if Oral Sex is so low risk -- if I really could not have gotten it that way --- what else could be going on ? I


My thought is that you have consistently false-positives? A CD4 of 1400 and no viral load? And you're not on meds????

No way you are positive.

Offline anniebc

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Re: Oral sex
« Reply #48 on: October 23, 2007, 11:26:29 PM »
BS

This is your last warning...STAY OUT OF THE HIV+ FORUMS...don't mess with me I'm in no F***king mood for it today

FYI...I had a CD4 of 1600 and my VL was undetectable..are you going to tell me I'm HIV negative too.

Stay away from these forum..or you will be banned.

Jan
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Never knock on deaths door..ring the bell and run..he really hates that.

Offline B2

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Re: Oral sex
« Reply #49 on: October 24, 2007, 12:07:38 AM »
you're rude!

 


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