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Author Topic: Should DL men be sympathised with?  (Read 10228 times)

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Offline buca45

  • Member
  • Posts: 187
Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
« Reply #50 on: September 02, 2007, 04:41:05 PM »
OK enough with the BS philly and thunter....what the hell is exactly up with the two of you?
Every comment i make you are there to dispute it and follow up with some smart ass remark?
what exactly is your problem with me? Im relatively new here, so if there is something im doing wrong or have offended you by my opinions, please be upfront and tell me what im doing wrong.
as far as my comment about being out at three....for me its the way it was. I remember being a kid who was very attracted to a teenager who worked for the rancher who lived next to my grandmothers land on the reservation. I knew somehow, even at that age that I was different and this was not a normal reaction. I therefore say i was out at the age of three.
I'm not sure how you were when you came out philly,but please speak for yourself when you refer to gay men as "flaming swisher" as that in no way, at no time describes me.
again, if you are having problems with me, please be man enough to tell me what im doing wrong that you have to attempt to downgrade me at every posting. this whole back and forth with you is getting so old and im sure the rest of the posters dont care to read it either.
fess up, what the hell is your problem???
"Love and Laughter and Happiness Ever After"

Offline 404error

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  • Posts: 431
Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
« Reply #51 on: September 02, 2007, 08:29:30 PM »
Well, I don't think they should be sympathized with at all.  If anything, the hammer should come down on certain communities and their unwillingness to accept homosexuality as a fact of life.  White people have been told time and time again that they are; racist, sexist, xenophobes who are often intolerant of other cultures and it has been rammed down their throats that they need to be accomodating of all people.  It's high time this same approach was taken towards those are aren't white as from what I've learned about those living on the "DL" they are mostly Black, Hispanic, Indian and Middle Eastern Americans.  It's all about education really.  Well, education and limiting ones religious intake I suppose...
A social critic who promotes equality...

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
« Reply #52 on: September 02, 2007, 08:37:02 PM »
The DL is a racist myth.

Suggesting that closeted homosexual conduct amongst men is particular to that group of colour is a nonsense. Hands up all the fags here who were married and had kids at one time.

There's more than one.

MtD


Offline emeraldize

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Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
« Reply #54 on: September 03, 2007, 08:19:23 AM »
Thanks for posting the link. What a worthwhile read.

Offline buca45

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  • Posts: 187
Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
« Reply #55 on: September 03, 2007, 12:08:05 PM »
Well, I don't think they should be sympathized with at all.  If anything, the hammer should come down on certain communities and their unwillingness to accept homosexuality as a fact of life.  White people have been told time and time again that they are; racist, sexist, xenophobes who are often intolerant of other cultures and it has been rammed down their throats that they need to be accomodating of all people.  It's high time this same approach was taken towards those are aren't white as from what I've learned about those living on the "DL" they are mostly Black, Hispanic, Indian and Middle Eastern Americans.  It's all about education really.  Well, education and limiting ones religious intake I suppose...

I dont think there is a hammer big enough to come down on any group to "force" them to accept homosexuality in their communities.
I think your blanket  judgement of people of color does more harm than good in solving the problem of intolerance.
From my experience with men on the 'DL', I would have to estimate the majority of them hovers around 90% white. The fact that the political messes of recent times have all involved white, religious leaning men proves your opinion is questionable.
I found your post somewhat racist and scary to lump ANY groups together as you have. If there is one group that I have no sympathy for in the DL scene, it is the "white" group as they are the majority and generally make up the 'rules' the rest of us must follow.
"Love and Laughter and Happiness Ever After"

Offline thunter34

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  • His name is Carl.
Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
« Reply #56 on: September 03, 2007, 03:59:52 PM »
Oh, sweet Jesus.  Now we're all coordinating our closets by color.
AIDS isn't for sissies.

Offline thunter34

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  • His name is Carl.
Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
« Reply #57 on: September 03, 2007, 04:12:31 PM »
And speaking of Jesus...Buca, I believe it's time we had a little "Come to Jesus" right now.

Exactly what the fuck did I say that was so damn awful above?  I simply said that I was unaware that children that young (3) had the capacity for such concepts.  That's a fact:  I didn't have any knowledge of such a thing, and I still question it.  That hardly constitutes an attack.  And for my other comment after that one:  It's called a joke.  "Here, Queer and Toilet Trained"...referencing being "out" at such a young age.

It's remarkable that you acheived such a mature level of self-awareness of your sexuality at the tender age of three.

It's unfortunate that your maturity in other aspects appears to have stalled at that age.


OK enough with the BS philly and thunter....what the hell is exactly up with the two of you?
Every comment i make you are there to dispute it and follow up with some smart ass remark?
what exactly is your problem with me? Im relatively new here, so if there is something im doing wrong or have offended you by my opinions, please be upfront and tell me what im doing wrong.
as far as my comment about being out at three....for me its the way it was. I remember being a kid who was very attracted to a teenager who worked for the rancher who lived next to my grandmothers land on the reservation. I knew somehow, even at that age that I was different and this was not a normal reaction. I therefore say i was out at the age of three.
I'm not sure how you were when you came out philly,but please speak for yourself when you refer to gay men as "flaming swisher" as that in no way, at no time describes me.
again, if you are having problems with me, please be man enough to tell me what im doing wrong that you have to attempt to downgrade me at every posting. this whole back and forth with you is getting so old and im sure the rest of the posters dont care to read it either.
fess up, what the hell is your problem???
AIDS isn't for sissies.

Offline a2z

  • Member
  • Posts: 186
Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
« Reply #58 on: September 03, 2007, 04:24:28 PM »
What does one mean by "Down Low" as opposed to closeted?

I'm a closeted male who chooses not to be in a relationship with anyone.  If I choose to do so, it will be a monogamous relationship.

Someone who is on the "down low" I always thought meant a married (or straight with girlfriend) man, who has sex with other men, and is in denial of even being gay/bi.  "Rightful" deception within a relationship is a part of the down low definition, as these people appear to think they have a right to sexual satisfaction, even if its outside their marriage/supposedly monogamous relationship.

I'm not on expert on these things, thank God... this is just my perception.
Dates are blood draw dates:
09/21/09: CD 898 27.0% VL 120 - back on track, same meds.High level enzymes, but less so
06/15/09: CD4 478 21.8% VL 1150 - high liver enzymes... looks like I may not be resistant
05/22/09: Fixed insurance, resumed medicine
04/17/09: Ran out of medicine, could not resolve insurance problems
04/01/09: CD4 773 28% VL 120 - high liver enzymes
12/01/08: CD4 514 23% VL 630
10/17/08 started Reyataz, Norvir and Truvada. -- possibly minor neuropathy, but otherwise okay.
9/10/08: CD4 345 17%, VL > 78K
8/18/08: CD4 312 18%, VL > 60K (considering meds)
12/19/07: CD4 550 28% VL > 100K (no meds yet)
Diagnosed 10/23/07

Offline Dachshund

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Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
« Reply #59 on: September 03, 2007, 04:31:31 PM »
What does one mean by "Down Low" as opposed to closeted?

I'm a closeted male who chooses not to be in a relationship with anyone.  If I choose to do so, it will be a monogamous relationship.

Someone who is on the "down low" I always thought meant a married (or straight with girlfriend) man, who has sex with other men, and is in denial of even being gay/bi.  "Rightful" deception within a relationship is a part of the down low definition, as these people appear to think they have a right to sexual satisfaction, even if its outside their marriage/supposedly monogamous relationship.

I'm not on expert on these things, thank God... this is just my perception.

Not to change the subject, but for a frame of reference. Are you poz a2z?

Online Joe K

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  • 30 Years Poz
Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
« Reply #60 on: September 03, 2007, 08:17:39 PM »
I believe you are confusing two very different terms when you use Down Low interchangeably with The Closet.  For me, Down Low represents a person, who is already in a committed relationship, that voluntarily choses to have sex outside of that relationship.  Actually Down Low is just a fancy name for cheaters. With that definition in mind, they deserve no sympathy what so ever and I would go so far as to say that if they infect their committed partner that they be charged with attempted murder.

On the other hand, the closet is the place where many of us hid, for whatever reasons, until we felt it safe to either come out, or we were outted, either way, it represents more of a state of mind to me, as opposed to the DL which involves conscious decisions to feed a carnal desire, regardless of their commitment to another.

The closet is for people who are just not ready to be out, or are in serious denial about their sexuality and there are all forms of closets, not just the gay kind (though certainly not as fabulous). The DL is another tired reasoning by people who lack the backbone and intestinal fortitude to be honest with who they are and to honor any commitment they have made.  DLs are just cheaters hiding behind a new term, same scum, different words.
Life is what happens, when you are busy making other plans.

Though you may be only one person in the entire world, to one person, you may be the entire world.

I wish to become half the man, that my dog thinks I am.

Remember me with simple acts of kindness and I will live forever.

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
« Reply #61 on: September 03, 2007, 08:20:36 PM »
With that definition in mind, they deserve no sympathy what so ever and I would go so far as to say that if they infect their committed partner that they be charged with attempted murder.

Only their committed partner, Joe?

 ::)

MtD

Online Joe K

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  • 30 Years Poz
Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
« Reply #62 on: September 03, 2007, 08:24:58 PM »
I would never exclude anyone who was intentionally infected by another, but my point here is that most people in a committed monogamous relationship would know WHO gave them HIV if one partner was cheating.  Of course all intentional infections should be prosecuted, but proving a casual infection, I believe, is much more difficult outside of a monogamous relationship. I was responding to the issue of the closet and DL and not the intentional infecting of others.
Life is what happens, when you are busy making other plans.

Though you may be only one person in the entire world, to one person, you may be the entire world.

I wish to become half the man, that my dog thinks I am.

Remember me with simple acts of kindness and I will live forever.

Offline Matty the Damned

  • Member
  • Posts: 12,160
Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
« Reply #63 on: September 03, 2007, 08:29:14 PM »
I would never exclude anyone who was intentionally infected by another, but my point here is that most people in a committed monogamous relationship would know WHO gave them HIV if one partner was cheating.

Well then you should have said that Joe. There really is no excuse for such sloppiness when posting.

I was responding to the issue of the closet and DL and not the intentional infecting of others.

I know Joe, I read that part. But you also jumped on the "prosecute the dirty rotten cheaters" wagon and thus were open to adverse comment.

Regards,

MtD

Offline thunter34

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  • Posts: 7,250
  • His name is Carl.
Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
« Reply #64 on: September 03, 2007, 08:55:55 PM »
From what I had heard, I thought DL was a term that encompassed both the "cheaters" and the "hiders"...both just keeping their actions from view for whatever reason.  I did hear that it was predominently a "cheater" type thing, though. 

While I understand the term "Down Low" may have orginated within the black community, I don't see it as being any sort of racial phenomenon.  That's a behavior that happens across the board.
AIDS isn't for sissies.

Offline DCGUY2007

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Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
« Reply #65 on: September 04, 2007, 01:26:45 AM »
My response is we are all human and have faults. There are many people that have said Gay people who are poz got what they deserved because they should have been having protected sex. But if you survey those same people many of them have had unsafe sex before but just haven't gotten Hiv.

Many people who preach not having affairs have had affairs before. etc etc. As for term "Down  low" every race has people that are having affairs on their spouses and girlfriends. No matter what it is called no one race has the corner on this. Unfortunately the news doesn't always accurately report everything. But then again they are trying to sale newspapers. What better way to sale newspapers and advetisement slots on news channels then to pit the us against them stuff.

I definitely feel sorry for wifes whose husbands are having affairs. Then again SOME of these wives know what is happening (although they pretend they don't). I have never been married or had a wife so I can't relate to the "DL". I also havent used illegal drugs but that doesn't mean I have no faults. All of us includng myself have done things that we regret. Fortunately all of us aren't in the public eye to have to defend our mistakes
« Last Edit: September 04, 2007, 01:55:00 AM by DCGUY2007 »

Offline Cliff

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Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
« Reply #66 on: September 04, 2007, 07:37:50 AM »
What drives men and women into the closet, (whether they take it a step further and date/marry someone of the opposite sex or not, while still engaging in sex with the same sex), is homophobia, ignorance, stigma and a culture where ones masculinity is pretty damn important.

So I guess I would disagree with Joe's statement that being on the down low is nothing but cheating.  I believe it's a little more than that.  Whether or not they should get our sympathy is another story.  But maybe we can (particularly those of us who are gay) give our understanding for what drives people to such extreme measures of hiding their sexuality.  No it doesn't excuse cheating or putting people (well mostly women) at risk.  But it may give us a clue as to how we begin to help those living a lie move towards the truth.

Offline DanielMark

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Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
« Reply #67 on: September 04, 2007, 08:43:45 AM »
I do feel bad for them for believing that they can not be who they were born to be. It must be hell for them to wake up everyday and not be able to accept themselves for who they are.
For whatever reason they believe this, its pretty sad.
This is coming from someone who has known and been 'out' since the age of three. Although I have come across quite a few people opposed to who I am since then, they havent broken me down yet, nor will they ever.

I also had awareness of my orientation from an early age Buca, probably at age four or five. Of course it baffled me then and I had no name for it, but it was clear to me that I was interested in other boys more than girls. When puberty hit, then my feelings fully transferred to my sexuality (of course). Iíve been shunned and worse because of that, but at least I am honest about it and not living like a selfish coward in some stupid needless closet hurting others in the process.

Homosexuality is natural for me because I am. Itís only unnatural to those who are not.

Daniel
MEDS: REYATAZ & KIVEXA (SINCE AUG 2008)

MAY 2000 LAB RESULTS: CD4 678
VL STILL UNDETECTABLE

DIAGNOSED IN 1988

Offline thunter34

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  • His name is Carl.
Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
« Reply #68 on: September 04, 2007, 08:49:17 AM »
Well, I also had an awareness of same-sex attraction at an early age (probably four or five).  Hell, I joke that i rubber-necked at men from the stroller.  And that probably isn't too far from the truth. 

Having an awareness of attraction (to me) is not nearly the same as being "out", as at that age I had no concepts of being either out or in- or anything resembling an understanding of adult sexuality and relationships- not to mention how society regarded these things.
AIDS isn't for sissies.

Offline a2z

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Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
« Reply #69 on: September 04, 2007, 09:04:39 AM »
My response is we are all human and have faults. There are many people that have said Gay people who are poz got what they deserved because they should have been having protected sex.

So people deserve HIV?
Dates are blood draw dates:
09/21/09: CD 898 27.0% VL 120 - back on track, same meds.High level enzymes, but less so
06/15/09: CD4 478 21.8% VL 1150 - high liver enzymes... looks like I may not be resistant
05/22/09: Fixed insurance, resumed medicine
04/17/09: Ran out of medicine, could not resolve insurance problems
04/01/09: CD4 773 28% VL 120 - high liver enzymes
12/01/08: CD4 514 23% VL 630
10/17/08 started Reyataz, Norvir and Truvada. -- possibly minor neuropathy, but otherwise okay.
9/10/08: CD4 345 17%, VL > 78K
8/18/08: CD4 312 18%, VL > 60K (considering meds)
12/19/07: CD4 550 28% VL > 100K (no meds yet)
Diagnosed 10/23/07

Offline buca45

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Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
« Reply #70 on: September 04, 2007, 09:29:57 AM »
Thanks Daniel for clarifying my statement about my being 'aware' of the attraction to other boys (and men) at an early age.
Of course, I too didn't have any idea of what it was or what it was called, but I somehow felt "special" and have always felt positive things about who I am regardless of how others view me.
I just can't imagine the fear and self doubt (which sometimes translates into  hatred) that men and women who don't accept themselves must feel.

a2z, please reread DCGUY's posting as that is not what he is implying at all. He is saying that THOSE people who dint accept homosexuality believe that this is what we deserve.
Of course,  NO ONE deserves to be infected!!
"Love and Laughter and Happiness Ever After"

Offline buca45

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Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
« Reply #71 on: September 04, 2007, 09:39:00 AM »
I believe that just because one is on the 'DL' doesn't mean they are necessarily cheating. Men on the DL feel they need to do so whether or not they are in a relationship.
To me, being on the DL means that because of societal rules and pressure to be 'normal', men who have sex with other men feel they have to hide who they are and who they are attracted to.
I believe at some point in the future (or at least strongly hope) every man and woman will have the freedom to live their lives as they were meant to.
Cases like those that involved Sen Craig does nothing more than add fuel to the fire of intolerance and non acceptance from others.
"Love and Laughter and Happiness Ever After"

Offline DCGUY2007

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Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
« Reply #72 on: September 04, 2007, 10:05:57 AM »
A2z

So people deserve HIV?

Of course I don't think people deserved Hiv. My point is that there are always others that will judge people and find ways to discrminate or look down on others.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2007, 10:08:40 AM by DCGUY2007 »

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
« Reply #73 on: September 04, 2007, 12:43:39 PM »
This "DL" term is so incredibly lame and tired.  Did anyone here ever adequately explain why the term is even needed when the word "closet" already exists?
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline RapidRod

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Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
« Reply #74 on: September 04, 2007, 01:05:50 PM »
GLAAD

Use the term "Down Low" only to describe men who self-identify that way. A controversial term describing the phenomenon of MSMs (men who have sex with men) who publicly identify as heterosexuals and maintain sexual relationships with women, "The Down Low" has become synonymous with sensationalized claims that MSMs are spreading HIV into "the general population." Avoid inaccurate suggestions that "The Down Low" is a phenomenon exclusive to communities of color. In general, the more accurate descriptor is MSM, which should be reserved for clinical or statistical contexts.

Offline a2z

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Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
« Reply #75 on: September 04, 2007, 10:44:47 PM »
Of course I don't think people deserved Hiv. My point is that there are always others that will judge people and find ways to discrminate or look down on others.

My apologies, I totally misread that.
Dates are blood draw dates:
09/21/09: CD 898 27.0% VL 120 - back on track, same meds.High level enzymes, but less so
06/15/09: CD4 478 21.8% VL 1150 - high liver enzymes... looks like I may not be resistant
05/22/09: Fixed insurance, resumed medicine
04/17/09: Ran out of medicine, could not resolve insurance problems
04/01/09: CD4 773 28% VL 120 - high liver enzymes
12/01/08: CD4 514 23% VL 630
10/17/08 started Reyataz, Norvir and Truvada. -- possibly minor neuropathy, but otherwise okay.
9/10/08: CD4 345 17%, VL > 78K
8/18/08: CD4 312 18%, VL > 60K (considering meds)
12/19/07: CD4 550 28% VL > 100K (no meds yet)
Diagnosed 10/23/07

Offline tester8888

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  • 32,wm, gay, hiv neg at 7 weeks, friend is newly +
Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
« Reply #76 on: September 06, 2007, 05:21:20 PM »
Like Tim said earlier, I thought that "Being on the Down Low" was a phrase used in the black community.  The only times that I have ever heard that term, is when I am sitting with some black girls at work and they are gossiping.  Because they used it to describe anyone whom they suspect is gay, I thought it was an ethnic term.  They even asked me, "So have you always been out, or did you used to be on the down low?".  So in that question there was a mixture of the closet and DL.  This has been very educational for this 'country comes to town' gay boi.
As for the knowing you were gay at a young age, I remember a defining moment.  We were to go to some event in which they were going to have "The General Lee" and one of the Duke boys.  It was about 1st grade I think.  When we arrived, it was not one of the Duke boys, but Daisy Duke instead.  I was so disappointed.  I can also remember in about 3 or 4 grade, when sometimes we little boys will pee together, that I thought a guy in my class had the prettiest pecker.  I loved to see it.  And I knew that was not normal.
7 weeks post exposure, tested HIV Negative.

Be Kind To Everyone You Meet, For You Do Not Know What Battles They Have Fought That Day.

 


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