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Author Topic: Should DL men be sympathised with?  (Read 11238 times)

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Offline JamieD

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Should DL men be sympathised with?
« on: August 31, 2007, 06:12:22 PM »
Sort of a thread inspired by the Larry Craig "scandal" (scandal according to the media atleast).

I see men who are on the "DL" getting a lot of slack on TV from Oprah, and other whackjobs like Donnie McLurkin, but what is the general feeling for gay men? It seems to err more on the side of witch hunts. Most people get all hyper when they hear talk of "DL" men, and start accussing them of horrendous things. I understand the fear that they may transmit HIV and/or other STIs back to their "wives" or "girlfriends", but other then this.
Should we as gay men sympathise with people who are in these situations? I am very fortunate in that I came from a family where every single member of my family is accepting of homosexuality (with the slight exception of my much younger sister, whom I don't count). But I am the only gay person I know personally who has this "luxury". I have had friends kicked out of their homes and onto the streets when their parents found out they were gay.
With all the possible terrible things that could come out of revealing one is gay, can't we atleast be a little more understanding to the way people in these situations live?

I think that if Larry Craig is in fact gay that it is sad that he has to look for sex in a public restroom. I really sympathise with him. And now he has been "caught" (supposedly) and everyone wants to beat him over the head. I realise he said some very terrible things about homosexuals, but maybe that was his way of dealing with his own homosexuality. Maybe he honestly believes that the more he hates homosexuals the less he will be one. If that is the case then I really do sympathise with him. He is very old and must have had to carry this around with him for a very long time. And now toward then end of his life people are going to give him shit when he was acting on desires he couldn't control.


Please keep this to a respectful conversation. If you don't agree with my sympathies for disenfranchised people then you can say that without attacking me or my choice in men.

Dan J.

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Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
« Reply #1 on: August 31, 2007, 06:20:53 PM »
Should I have sympathy for the married man that wanted me to poke him the bootay & then he followed me all over town ? Nope, not for him. I have sympathy for his wife because her husband is out screwing with men on his lunch break without protection. & Then he goes home and has sexual realations with her. He doesn't even consider the consequences of his actions. How is SHE going to feel if he becomes HIV+ & then passes the "gift" on to her?

If a man is going to be gay, then damnit be gay & leave an innocent woman out of the equation.

Dan

Offline JamieD

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Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
« Reply #2 on: August 31, 2007, 06:22:47 PM »
He doesn't even consider the consequences of his actions.

Serious Question.... How do you know this?

Offline AlanBama

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Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
« Reply #3 on: August 31, 2007, 07:01:22 PM »
My sympathy doesn't extend so far as to give Sen. Craig a "blanket pass"...he has spouted hatred and bigotry against gays, when he is one himself (excuse me, a "MSM").   The ultimate hypocrite.   

I'm with Dan, I feel sorry for the wives, just as I would feel sorry for a gay man whose partner was stepping out on him without his knowledge.   It's wrong.

Alan
"Remember my sentimental friend that a heart is not judged by how much you love, but by how much you are loved by others." - The Wizard of Oz

Offline woodshere

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Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
« Reply #4 on: August 31, 2007, 07:25:46 PM »
I used to have the urge and desire to hook up with married men.  But  ever since I was dumped by my X for someone else, I just can't do it with straight married men or partnered gay men.  Maybe it's old fashioned, but I want no part of something of which I have seen from the side as the "married woman".

As far as feeling sorry for a guy on the DL.  Hell no!

Woods
"Let us give pubicity to HV/AIDS and not hide it..." "One of the things destroying people with AIDS is the stigma we attach to it."   Nelson Mandela

Offline thunter34

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Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
« Reply #5 on: August 31, 2007, 07:28:49 PM »

Please keep this to a respectful conversation. If you don't agree with my sympathies for disenfranchised people then you can say that without attacking me or my choice in men.

i marvel at the parameters some set for how others should respond when they don't show a fraction of the same respect in their own responses.

just sayin'.
AIDS isn't for sissies.

Dan J.

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Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
« Reply #6 on: August 31, 2007, 08:14:59 PM »
Serious Question.... How do you know this?

Because I asked him point blank if he worries about getting HIV.  He said that it doesn't bother him.

Offline Bucko

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Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
« Reply #7 on: August 31, 2007, 08:21:12 PM »
We used to say "Today's trade is tomorrow's competition."

Pity closet cases? Hell no! Why should liars and cowards be cut any slack?

I came out to a very hostile environment in 1977 and lived to tell about it.
Blessed with brains, talent and gorgeous tits.

The revolutionary smart set reads The Spin Cycle at least once every day.

Blathering on AIDSmeds since 2005, provocative from birth

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
« Reply #8 on: August 31, 2007, 08:34:08 PM »
I came out to a very hostile environment in 1977 and lived to tell about it.

YA RLY... hello, sista.  I was a few years behind you but only due to my age.
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Dan J.

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Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
« Reply #9 on: August 31, 2007, 08:36:10 PM »
I was "out" by the time I was 7!

Dan
(Who always knew closets are for clothes)

Offline Bucko

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Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
« Reply #10 on: August 31, 2007, 08:39:40 PM »
YA RLY... hello, sista.  I was a few years behind you but only due to my age.

I'm hardly bitter, but where the fux my toaster over?
Blessed with brains, talent and gorgeous tits.

The revolutionary smart set reads The Spin Cycle at least once every day.

Blathering on AIDSmeds since 2005, provocative from birth

Offline tester8888

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Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
« Reply #11 on: August 31, 2007, 08:41:14 PM »
My pity for him only goes to a certain extent.  If he had not chosen a "Public Job", then he could enjoy some semblance of a life on the down low.  

 I do not condone his infidelity.  I do not condone infidelity in any relationship, st8, gay, or otherwise.  When you make a commitment to a monogamous relationship, that is where it should stand.  So, strike 1 to the Senator.

 Everyone has to choose between what they are and what they want to be.  I would love to be the director of a department where I work (hence, something I want to be).  The job requires one to be on call 24/7.  I also like to go out with my buds and to sometimes get drunk on the weekends (hence, the person that I am).  So, I do the responsible thing, and do not take the job, as I am unable to fullfill the responsibilities of the job.  So, strike 2 to the Senator, for not being an upstanding accountable person.

  If he chose a 'regular' job like so many other people, then he would not have to live in the public view, and could do whatever he wanted, with very few people ever knowing about it.  He has however, chose a public job and so must accept the consequences, not of what he did not choose (being gay), but of what he did choose (being an elected official).  So, strike 3 to the Senator.

  It has always been my opinion that we in the gay community get blamed for 'luring' the str8 guys into traps.  Why is it that you only see stories about 'str8' celebrities, etc, that get 'caught' participating in gay activities, and never the openly gay people that get talked about for participating in gay activities?  It is absolutely ridiculous to me when gay community gets blamed for converting someone to gaydom, when the fact is that they were gay all along, but just living on the downlow.  To make it even worse, it is the guys on the downlow that are usually involved in some sordid tale, as they are attempting sexual relations, not with the people of their choice, but with those that are available to them.  The victims of opportunity we could say:  priests and choir boys, senators in public restrooms, coaches and students, etc.   When they do these things, it just perpetuates the viewpoint of homosexuality as being grossly deviant.  My family uses the words gay, pedophile, rapist, etc all interchangeably.  So, strike 4 to the Senator.

I could ramble on and on and on and on and on and on........
7 weeks post exposure, tested HIV Negative.

Be Kind To Everyone You Meet, For You Do Not Know What Battles They Have Fought That Day.

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
« Reply #12 on: August 31, 2007, 08:41:41 PM »
I'm hardly bitter, but where the fux my toaster over?

Girl, you know that Venezuelan boy mopped it.
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline thunter34

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Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
« Reply #13 on: August 31, 2007, 08:42:43 PM »
I'm hardly bitter, but where the fux my toaster over?

I want my toaster, too.

(Though I'd settle for just getting toasted)
AIDS isn't for sissies.

Offline Bucko

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Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
« Reply #14 on: August 31, 2007, 09:19:03 PM »
Girl, you know that Venezuelan boy mopped it.

That's it! Blame it all on Hugo Chavez!
Blessed with brains, talent and gorgeous tits.

The revolutionary smart set reads The Spin Cycle at least once every day.

Blathering on AIDSmeds since 2005, provocative from birth

Offline GSOgymrat

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Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
« Reply #15 on: September 01, 2007, 09:23:39 AM »
I have no sympathy for twisted closet cases, which is the term my friends and I used before DL became the PC term of choice. These men want to have sex with gay men but don't want to be seen in public with us. I would rather deal with garden variety homophobes then these self-loathing liars.

Offline Iggy

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Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
« Reply #16 on: September 01, 2007, 10:59:27 AM »
I have two feelings for the two versions of DL

I think the DL  as it originated for those whose have difficulty accepting their homosexuality have my sympathy to a degree.  The vast majority of gay men have been in the closet at some point in their life and I applaud anyone and everyone who does live openly, but also remember what life was like before I came out in college and it seemed at the time like everything would fall apart if I was honest about who I was.  For those who engage in DL I can appreciate where they are.

For the usage of DL as a sort of fetish or as a definition however  I think they are self hating (both the ones who use the label and the ones who seek those who wear the label)  I am also included most of the younger generation's use of DL in this category as most today who I see are DL in name only .  I am not sure if it is a NYC phenomenon but in the last few years being DL has sort of become a cool thing to lust after and thus like any opportunist, so many guys now claim to be DL simply to score more interests in their online ads or their reputations.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2007, 11:02:31 AM by Iggy »

Offline Dachshund

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Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
« Reply #17 on: September 01, 2007, 11:03:37 AM »
Wow! I can see why gay men are so afraid of getting old. Is this what I have to look forward to when I get to be as old as 40? Being a bitter queen?
Next time you all feel like being bitchy old queens slide your chairs back away from the computer, close your eyes, and say "I am a princess, not a queen" say that 3 times and I guarantee you the desire to be a queen will go away.~JamieD


Something tells me the kid wasn't really sincere when he started this thread. ;) The level of empathy the kid really feels toward you old bitter queens is there for all to read. Keep it in mind when he returns to troll anew.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2007, 11:14:33 AM by Dachshund »

Offline bear60

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Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
« Reply #18 on: September 01, 2007, 11:06:33 AM »
I Am Not A Gay American

James Duggan©2007

 
Okay, by now most of us have heard of the news that Sen. Larry Craig (R-Idaho) has pleaded guilty to charges stemming from his inappropriate behavior in a public men's bathroom just after noon on June 11 at Minneapolis-St. Paul International Airport.
 

Craig allegedly tapped his foot, brushed his shoe against an undercover officer's shoe and repeatedly waved his hand under the stall divider.

 

A right wing conservative anti-queer elected official, Craig continues to deny that he was seeking sex and has declared that he is "not gay... I never have been gay".

 

Hopefully, this is totally true. We would hate it if this man became a representation of the norm for the queer community. 

 

So what are some of his other options? 

1.   "I am a self-loathing homosexual who has remained in the closet my entire life and I let these evil homoerotic desires make me momentarily insane for sex."

2.   "I am a bisexual man with feelings for men that can not be suppressed, so instead of dealing with it as an adult I lurk around men's rooms seeking other like minded men."

3.   "I am a straight man who has a fetish for man-on-man sex in risky locations."

4.   "I'm just really confused about all this. I really don't know why I have these feelings. I know that they're wrong but I just can't seem to get rid of them."

While any and all of these possibilities may explain, even, in part, Senator Craig's behavior, his issues are really his own. However, the queer community in America does have to be concerned, unfortunately, with all the media attention that this type of behavior has given to the men who participate in this type of men's room activity and this activity being labeled as "gay sex."

 

Let's be very clear. This bathroom activity is not the norm for queer men.  An informal survey, I conducted this week indicated that the majority of queer men questioned have never known that there were universal symbols for man-on-man sex in men's rooms.

 

We also need to clear up another misnomer. There is a big difference between "gay sex" and "man-on-man sex."  Gay, queer or homosexual sex is rooted in both a physical and emotional attraction between the two parties.  Man-on-man sex is just that; it is two men having a physical release--without an emotional attraction, a desire to partner with another man or any other reason for human connection. It's simply "just do it and move on." Psychologists can confirm that this activity can be found in both subgroups of both homosexual men and heterosexual men.

 

That's right --- the dirty little secret is out --- lots of heterosexual men enjoy man-on-man sex every once in a while. 

 

Lastly, what of this behavior of men having sex in public bathrooms? 

 

QUEERtimes holds the position that it is absolutely wrong in all circumstances!

 

A queer friend of mine likened it to an act of terrorism.  Imagine an unsuspected kid being on the wrong side of the stall divider.  Imagine his fear, his terror.  While some will search their minds for reasons as to why this type of activity exists and try to justify it, we in the queer community must condemn and reject it. 

 

Public bathrooms and other public facilities and locations are completely inappropriate places for sexual expression.
 
As the saying goes --- get a room!
 
 



Poz Bear Type in Philadelphia

Offline Dachshund

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Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
« Reply #19 on: September 01, 2007, 11:18:48 AM »



"you can do anything you like in public providing you don't frighten the horses."


                                       ~Lady Astor

Offline thunter34

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Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
« Reply #20 on: September 01, 2007, 11:19:33 AM »
Wow! I can see why gay men are so afraid of getting old. Is this what I have to look forward to when I get to be as old as 40? Being a bitter queen?
Next time you all feel like being bitchy old queens slide your chairs back away from the computer, close your eyes, and say "I am a princess, not a queen" say that 3 times and I guarantee you the desire to be a queen will go away.~JamieD


Something tells me the kid wasn't really sincere when he started this thread. ;) The level of empathy the kid really feels toward you old bitter queens is there for all to read. Keep it in mind when he returns to troll anew.



Spot on, Auntie D- as always.  That's why I didn't bother to post in this thread beyond my original note of his posting parameters (which I thought was really rich).   I was waiting for this thread to appear yesterday when he got TO'd.  It's the same type of thing as last time.  
AIDS isn't for sissies.

Offline Iggy

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Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
« Reply #21 on: September 01, 2007, 11:21:47 AM »

We also need to clear up another misnomer. There is a big difference between "gay sex" and "man-on-man sex."  Gay, queer or homosexual sex is rooted in both a physical and emotional attraction between the two parties.  Man-on-man sex is just that; it is two men having a physical release--without an emotional attraction, a desire to partner with another man or any other reason for human connection. It's simply "just do it and move on." Psychologists can confirm that this activity can be found in both subgroups of both homosexual men and heterosexual men.

That's right --- the dirty little secret is out --- lots of heterosexual men enjoy man-on-man sex every once in a while. 

 :o

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
« Reply #22 on: September 01, 2007, 11:25:46 AM »


"you can do anything you like in public providing you don't frighten the horses."


                                       ~Lady Astor

reading those Larry Craig Freeper quotes again, sweetie?
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline Dachshund

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Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
« Reply #23 on: September 01, 2007, 11:26:08 AM »
That's right --- the dirty little secret is out --- lots of heterosexual men enjoy man-on-man sex every once in a while.  



Secret? Since when? The only group that doesn't know about this dirty little secret are the wives...and I ain't so sure about them.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2007, 11:28:03 AM by Dachshund »

Offline bear60

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Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
« Reply #24 on: September 01, 2007, 11:29:56 AM »
"... the dirty little secret is out --- lots of heterosexual men enjoy man-on-man sex every once in a while.  "
quote James Duggan


Thanks for picking that out Iggy.
I too thought it kind of significant in relation to this discussion. Seems men having sex with men Or (DL) can be straight. So this Congressman may be straight but just likes a little slurping once in a while.???? Ok, well thats how it looks on paper.
Well...Doxie...the secret is that they may in fact BE straight....not closet gays. Thats how I read it.
Poz Bear Type in Philadelphia

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
« Reply #25 on: September 01, 2007, 11:33:20 AM »
It's the same type of thing as last time.  

So can we contemplate the motivation behind the incessant trolling by this poster?  While he's seemed combative in some ways from the beginning, it seems lately like he WANTS to be banned.
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline Dachshund

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Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
« Reply #26 on: September 01, 2007, 11:39:11 AM »
"... the dirty little secret is out --- lots of heterosexual men enjoy man-on-man sex every once in a while.  "
quote James Duggan


Thanks for picking that out Iggy.
I too thought it kind of significant in relation to this discussion. Seems men having sex with men Or (DL) can be straight. So this Congressman may be straight but just likes a little slurping once in a while.???? Ok, well thats how it looks on paper.
Well...Doxie...the secret is that they may in fact BE straight....not closet gays. Thats how I read it.


Believe me, I ain't one of those insufferable mo's who thinks every man is gay. I believe they may well be straight and I have had many experiences to prove it, in my mind at least. Many!

Offline thunter34

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Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
« Reply #27 on: September 01, 2007, 11:42:59 AM »
So can we contemplate the motivation behind the incessant trolling by this poster?  While he's seemed combative in some ways from the beginning, it seems lately like he WANTS to be banned.

Oooh!  That's actually a much more intriguing theme for a thread (to me).  However, I don't know if we really can- lest it be potentially viewed as flaming or trolling ourselves.  ???  

It is a legitimate question, though.  I mean, someone whose first thread after a TO is titled "I flame"...and who posts a snappy comment directly under a warning from Peter not to post any snappy comments.  Well....?
AIDS isn't for sissies.

Offline Dachshund

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Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
« Reply #28 on: September 01, 2007, 11:48:10 AM »
It was all just a game of Russian Moderator Roulette.

Offline thunter34

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Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
« Reply #29 on: September 01, 2007, 11:51:39 AM »
It was all just a game of Russian Moderator Roulette.

Agreed, but that's fascinating to me.  I guess getting a thrill off of seeing how far they can push people then on to the next forum board? 
AIDS isn't for sissies.

Offline megasept

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« Reply #30 on: September 01, 2007, 12:32:19 PM »
Sort of a thread inspired by the Larry Craig "scandal" (scandal according to the media atleast).

I see men who are on the "DL" getting a lot of slack on TV from Oprah..I think that if Larry Craig is in fact gay that it is sad that he has to look for sex in a public restroom. I really sympathise with him... I really do sympathise with him. He is very old and must have had to carry this around with him for a very long time. And now toward then end of his life people are going to give him shit when he was acting on desires he couldn't control.


Please keep this to a respectful conversation. If you don't agree with my sympathies for disenfranchised people then you can say that without attacking me or my choice in men.

Jamie D:

I respectfully suggest you used "slack" for "flack", though I like it the way you wrote it.

Two people who are/were never  "disenfranchised": Diana and Sen. Craig! I liked the first because of all her opportunism, desire to help others, and many foibles, and the latter is such a tiresome hypocrite.

Sen. Craig is not that much older than me and similar in age to lots of regular users on this Site. When we "came out" years, even decades ago (3 for me) it was the tail end of police raids on bars, distruction of careers for the private "crime" of homosexuality, and other indignities (including lobotomizing or shock therapy for gay men). Your heart really pines for the wrong folks (fine to love all). Learn a little about the time not so long ago. Lots of older men and lesbians can tell you their experiences first hand. It was fun, but often not so pretty! If you want to love everyone, then pity the oppressor, because that's Sen. Craig's legacy. As a human being---well ask his, "beard", the poor Mrs. Craig trotted around like a prop the last two weeks.

"Tea room" sex, like other DL moves, is really more unnecessary than disgusting. Craig was victimized by a Vice cop doing his job. A silly job (The Sgt sounds plenty intelligent as an interrogator) in the 21st Century, that powerful people like Sen Craig make sure survives all the cultural changes and progress of the last 4 decades.  I think it's funny and a deserved fall from "decency" to "reality". It goes way beyond "partisanship", right to the core of the nonsense our confused culture finds itself embroiled in (better to worry about the National Guardsmen on their second or third tour of duty in Iraq, etc.). Oh, yeah, remember all those Federal employees, translators of Arabic, who the Pentagon fired for what they do on their off time? That's our culture too. Sen Craig didn't do squat for them, nor would he for me or you. Chicken came home to roost!

 8)  -megasept

« Last Edit: September 01, 2007, 12:58:11 PM by megasept »

Offline Ann

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Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
« Reply #31 on: September 01, 2007, 01:57:15 PM »
Wow! I can see why gay men are so afraid of getting old. Is this what I have to look forward to when I get to be as old as 40? Being a bitter queen?
Next time you all feel like being bitchy old queens slide your chairs back away from the computer, close your eyes, and say "I am a princess, not a queen" say that 3 times and I guarantee you the desire to be a queen will go away.~JamieD


Something tells me the kid wasn't really sincere when he started this thread. ;) The level of empathy the kid really feels toward you old bitter queens is there for all to read. Keep it in mind when he returns to troll anew.


Spot on, Auntie D- as always.  That's why I didn't bother to post in this thread beyond my original note of his posting parameters (which I thought was really rich).   I was waiting for this thread to appear yesterday when he got TO'd.  It's the same type of thing as last time.  
So can we contemplate the motivation behind the incessant trolling by this poster?  While he's seemed combative in some ways from the beginning, it seems lately like he WANTS to be banned.
Oooh!  That's actually a much more intriguing theme for a thread (to me).  However, I don't know if we really can- lest it be potentially viewed as flaming or trolling ourselves.  ???  

It is a legitimate question, though.  I mean, someone whose first thread after a TO is titled "I flame"...and who posts a snappy comment directly under a warning from Peter not to post any snappy comments.  Well....?
It was all just a game of Russian Moderator Roulette.
Agreed, but that's fascinating to me.  I guess getting a thrill off of seeing how far they can push people then on to the next forum board? 

ENOUGH!

JamieD is on a time out, as you all well know, and I see no good reason to let you guys drag the situation through the mud again and again. The kid has legitimate problems, so leave him alone. We won't let his problems disrupt the forum and neither will we allow him to be bashed in his absence.

If you guys want to continue the discussion about the DL, by all means do. Just knock off the talk about trolls in relation to Jamie. Jamie has been given his punishment, and that's that. No need to keep bringing it up. Got it? Good.

And yes, consider yourselves warned.

Ann
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Offline emeraldize

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Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
« Reply #32 on: September 01, 2007, 02:32:06 PM »
I see men who are on the "DL" getting a lot of slack on TV from Oprah, and other whackjobs like Donnie McLurkin,

JamieD

Not sure I want to comment about sympathizing with men who are DL just yet, for a variety of reasons.

However, I'd like to help you with your first sentence. The men are not getting "slack" they are getting flak or flack (meaning: opposition or criticism). Using the word "slack" technically changes the meaning of your sentence to its exact opposite. Most of us reading understand what the meaning you intend. You might want to know as this is one of those words people think they're using correctly having heard others use it because it sounds close the accurate word. Make sense?

Em
« Last Edit: September 01, 2007, 02:36:08 PM by emeraldize »

Offline DanielMark

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Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
« Reply #33 on: September 01, 2007, 05:03:47 PM »
Should DL men be sympathised with?

My answer to that is I only have sympathy for anyone who is being cheated on by anyone else. Period. I believe infidelity is an act of selfishness to the extreme, and if children are affected as well as a spouse I have to say I find it even more heinous.

Daniel
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Offline thunter34

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Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
« Reply #34 on: September 01, 2007, 05:04:39 PM »
I agree.
AIDS isn't for sissies.

Offline Iggy

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Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
« Reply #35 on: September 01, 2007, 09:00:32 PM »
"... the dirty little secret is out --- lots of heterosexual men enjoy man-on-man sex every once in a while.  "
quote James Duggan


Thanks for picking that out Iggy.
I too thought it kind of significant in relation to this discussion. Seems men having sex with men Or (DL) can be straight. So this Congressman may be straight but just likes a little slurping once in a while.???? Ok, well thats how it looks on paper.
Well...Doxie...the secret is that they may in fact BE straight....not closet gays. Thats how I read it.

Oh...I believe in g0ys just think they kid themselves that's all.

Offline buca45

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Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
« Reply #36 on: September 02, 2007, 02:12:48 PM »
I do feel bad for them for believing that they can not be who they were born to be. It must be hell for them to wake up everyday and not be able to accept themselves for who they are.
For whatever reason they believe this, its pretty sad.
This is coming from someone who has known and been 'out' since the age of three. Although I have come across quite a few people opposed to who I am since then, they havent broken me down yet, nor will they ever.
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Offline thunter34

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Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
« Reply #37 on: September 02, 2007, 02:24:06 PM »
you were "out" since the age of three, buca?

i was unaware that children that young even had the capacity for such concepts.
AIDS isn't for sissies.

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
« Reply #38 on: September 02, 2007, 02:32:38 PM »
you were "out" since the age of three, buca?

i was unaware that children that young even had the capacity for such concepts.

Odd claim, isn't it?  Ranks up there with bim's claim that he read 500 articles frankly.
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline thunter34

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Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
« Reply #39 on: September 02, 2007, 02:36:57 PM »
He's here.   He's queer.  And he's toilet trained.
AIDS isn't for sissies.

Offline Iggy

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Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
« Reply #40 on: September 02, 2007, 02:49:32 PM »
Three sounds a bit young to be that self aware.

I thought I was pretty self aware when in the 3rd grade me and a classmate were looking at an illustrated edition of Edgar Allen Poe tales - It was the Pit and the Pendulum story, and the drawing was of this man who was bare chested strapped to a table ...all  sweaty and with a look of terror and almost excitement in his eyes as the pendulum swung towards him.

I remember looking at that picture a long time and then me and chris looked at each other and giggled and I had butterflies in my stomach.   It was then I knew I liked something about other boys but in all honesty I wouldn't claim that I knew I was gay then....into bondage and sweaty bare chested men...well yeah.. but gay?...naw -I don't even think I could have comprehended what that meant.


Offline Dachshund

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Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
« Reply #41 on: September 02, 2007, 02:51:37 PM »
It happens, my uncle told me I was out at three.

Offline Iggy

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Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
« Reply #42 on: September 02, 2007, 02:55:41 PM »
My mom knew when I was five.

She had to go to one of her 12 step meetings and being that we couldn't afford a babysitter and my older bro & sis were MIA at the time - I always had to go with her.

So she kept telling me to turn of the TV as we needed to go...I decided at the tender age of five to make my stand.  According to my mother I stood up , swirled around, put both hands on my hips  and exclaimed:

"Why do I have to go to those damned meetings?  I'm only five years old and haven't had a drink in my whole life."

I sure do wish I was wearing shoulder pads and come-fuck-me pumps  at the time.


Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
« Reply #43 on: September 02, 2007, 03:02:30 PM »
"Out" to me means being cognizant of the concept, not just appearing to be a flaming swisher.
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline MoltenStorm

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Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
« Reply #44 on: September 02, 2007, 03:21:06 PM »
Ironic, but interesting.

Sympathize with men on the "down low?" No.

(1) If they're single, they will publically blast gays or MSMs, yet when the door shuts at some hotel, they're a bunch of hypocrits.

(2) If they're not single, they're breaking a vow or a promise they made to someone. To treat that vow or promise with such disrespect is reprehensible.

(3) They act as if they have no choice, and they want people to believe they have no choice in the matter. In reality, they always have a choice.
"Love is always patient and kind. It is never jealous. Love is never boastful nor conceited. It is never rude or selfish. It does not take offense and is not resentful. Love takes no pleasure in other people's sins, but delights in the truth. It is always ready to excuse, to trust, to hope, and to endure whatever comes." - 1 Corinthians 13:4-7, adaptation in A Walk To Remember

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Offline libvet

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Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
« Reply #45 on: September 02, 2007, 03:30:58 PM »
I have a hard time sympathizing with Craig and his ilk for a few reasons.  The major two biggest of those reasons are:

1) I grew up in a rural Southern Baptist household where being gay was considered the next best thing practicing satanic animal sacrifice.   I am fully cognizant of what it feels like to grow up in an environment that makes you feel like something is dreadfully wrong with you and feeling that you have to conform to a standard you had no part in making.  If Craig decided to retreat into closet (except for occasional lapses) due to his upbringing, he is not so isolated from the rest of the world that he could possibly avoided any opportunity to realize that there are perfectly happy and well-adjusted individuals out there who gay and don't feel any need pretend to be otherwise.  He made a choice to continue to present a false face to the world at large rather than trying to be happy with who he is.  I'm sure we've all had instances where we stifled our own opinions on the altar of conformity, but an entire life?  I just can't buy it.

2) He used his position to engage in legislative gay-bashing. 

I can accept one of these things, but I cannot accept the other.  Being a party to exacerbating bigotry against homosexuality while simultaneously having sex with men is the most repugnant and pathetic things I can imagine.  I don't for a second believe that his votes were based on anything other than making sure his political career was intact.

He sold his soul.  And he sold it cheaply and with full cognizance of what he was doing. 

Someone who does that might warrant my contempt, but I will not afford him my sympathy.  If this were a country where we still imprisoned or executed or lobotomized homosexuals for being homosexual, I might have a different opinion.

 

Offline thunter34

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Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
« Reply #46 on: September 02, 2007, 03:40:43 PM »
i find it interesting when gay men talk about being into sex with men on the DL and also complain if the government resists allowing gay marriage.
AIDS isn't for sissies.

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
« Reply #47 on: September 02, 2007, 03:44:39 PM »
i find it interesting when gay men talk about being into sex with men on the DL and also complain if the government resists allowing gay marriage.
i find it interesting that *some* gay men fetishize these Down Low characters.

And I hate the phrase "Down Low" in the first place.  Why rename The Closet?  It doesn't make it any prettier a place frankly.
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline libvet

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Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
« Reply #48 on: September 02, 2007, 03:47:02 PM »
And I hate the phrase "Down Low" in the first place.  Why rename The Closet?  It doesn't make it any prettier a place frankly.

Bravo!  Well said.

Offline thunter34

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Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
« Reply #49 on: September 02, 2007, 03:50:11 PM »
i don't really like the term "homophobia" myself.  most often, it isn't so much "fear" as outright "hatred".
AIDS isn't for sissies.

 


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