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Author Topic: Are there any conservatives here?  (Read 14899 times)

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Offline JamieD

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  • Posts: 259
Are there any conservatives here?
« on: August 19, 2007, 12:16:06 AM »
Am I the only person here who is not a liberal or a democrat? Reading some of these threads makes me think I am the only one here who is not a tree hugging communist.  :-\ Is everyone who is affected by HIV disease a democrat? I get a lot of slack when I tell people I am a gay conservative. People tell me gay republicans are "sad", and then I laugh that they assume because I am a conservative that I must be a republican. How narrow minded.

Offline milker

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Re: Are there any conservatives here?
« Reply #1 on: August 19, 2007, 12:17:58 AM »
I used to be a socialist, the French type, and now I'm more of a social-democrat, the German type.

Milker.
mid-dec: stupid ass
mid-jan: seroconversion
mid-feb: poz
mar 07: cd4 432 (35%) vl 54000
may 07: cd4 399 (28%) vl 27760
jul 07: cd4 403 (26%) vl 99241
oct 07: cd4 353 (24%) vl 29993
jan 08: cd4 332 (26%) vl 33308
mar 08: cd4 392 (23%) vl 75548
jun 08: cd4 325 (27%) vl 45880
oct 08: cd4 197 (20%) vl 154000 <== aids diagnosis
nov 2 08 start Atripla
nov 30 08: cd4 478 (23%) vl 1880 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
feb 19 09: cd4 398 (24%) vl 430 getting there!
apr 23 09: cd4 604 (29%) vl 50 woohoo :D :D
jul 30 09: cd4 512 (29%) vl undetectable :D :D
may 27 10: cd4 655 (32%) vl undetectable :D :D

Now accepting applications from blowjob ninjas™

Offline JamieD

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  • Posts: 259
Re: Are there any conservatives here?
« Reply #2 on: August 19, 2007, 12:19:43 AM »
Could you explain, please? I am only familiar with the US, UK, and Spain's political systems.

Offline Robert

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Re: Are there any conservatives here?
« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2007, 12:41:51 AM »
Two of the most vocal conservatives are the GRINCH and Jack('formerly the loser known as Jake') but we don't hold it against them.

Some appear to be unabashed democrats and still others are liberals but don't like the labels.  Sort of like you shunning the label 'republican'. 

Now when it comes to 'tree huggers', well I'll confess to that.  There is nothing I like better than to stretch out on my hammock, in the shade of two big oaks, hugging the creek nearby.  Now I only have one hammock but if I had 2 I suppose I would give you one.  Does that make me a communist? ("...to each according to his need...yadda, yadda, yadda.")

robert
..........

Offline milker

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Re: Are there any conservatives here?
« Reply #4 on: August 19, 2007, 12:55:27 AM »
Could you explain, please? I am only familiar with the US, UK, and Spain's political systems.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_democracy
mid-dec: stupid ass
mid-jan: seroconversion
mid-feb: poz
mar 07: cd4 432 (35%) vl 54000
may 07: cd4 399 (28%) vl 27760
jul 07: cd4 403 (26%) vl 99241
oct 07: cd4 353 (24%) vl 29993
jan 08: cd4 332 (26%) vl 33308
mar 08: cd4 392 (23%) vl 75548
jun 08: cd4 325 (27%) vl 45880
oct 08: cd4 197 (20%) vl 154000 <== aids diagnosis
nov 2 08 start Atripla
nov 30 08: cd4 478 (23%) vl 1880 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
feb 19 09: cd4 398 (24%) vl 430 getting there!
apr 23 09: cd4 604 (29%) vl 50 woohoo :D :D
jul 30 09: cd4 512 (29%) vl undetectable :D :D
may 27 10: cd4 655 (32%) vl undetectable :D :D

Now accepting applications from blowjob ninjas™

Offline thunter34

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  • His name is Carl.
Re: Are there any conservatives here?
« Reply #5 on: August 19, 2007, 01:12:05 AM »
Am I the only person here who is not a liberal or a democrat? Reading some of these threads makes me think I am the only one here who is not a tree hugging communist.  :-\ Is everyone who is affected by HIV disease a democrat? I get a lot of slack when I tell people I am a gay conservative. People tell me gay republicans are "sad", and then I laugh that they assume because I am a conservative that I must be a republican. How narrow minded.


there again...not too many "conservative democrats" spring to mind.  how narrow minded, indeed...completely unlike the sweeping statement that all liberals or democrats are "tree hugging communists".

do tell us more about your particular version of conservatism. 
AIDS isn't for sissies.

Offline milker

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Re: Are there any conservatives here?
« Reply #6 on: August 19, 2007, 01:15:47 AM »
 I'm definitely not a liberal because I don't know what it means.

Milker.

/edited for language/
« Last Edit: August 19, 2007, 12:34:54 PM by milker »
mid-dec: stupid ass
mid-jan: seroconversion
mid-feb: poz
mar 07: cd4 432 (35%) vl 54000
may 07: cd4 399 (28%) vl 27760
jul 07: cd4 403 (26%) vl 99241
oct 07: cd4 353 (24%) vl 29993
jan 08: cd4 332 (26%) vl 33308
mar 08: cd4 392 (23%) vl 75548
jun 08: cd4 325 (27%) vl 45880
oct 08: cd4 197 (20%) vl 154000 <== aids diagnosis
nov 2 08 start Atripla
nov 30 08: cd4 478 (23%) vl 1880 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
feb 19 09: cd4 398 (24%) vl 430 getting there!
apr 23 09: cd4 604 (29%) vl 50 woohoo :D :D
jul 30 09: cd4 512 (29%) vl undetectable :D :D
may 27 10: cd4 655 (32%) vl undetectable :D :D

Now accepting applications from blowjob ninjas™

Offline JamieD

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  • Posts: 259
Re: Are there any conservatives here?
« Reply #7 on: August 19, 2007, 01:19:10 AM »

there again...not too many "conservative democrats"   

No, I do realise that there are Zell Millers running around. I didn't say the entire democratic party was a bunch of hippies. I said some of the threads make me feel like I am the only person who is not a tree hugging communist, not that every democrat is a liberal.

Offline egello

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  • cb
Re: Are there any conservatives here?
« Reply #8 on: August 19, 2007, 01:26:28 AM »
what r u conservative about? money? social political issues? or what?????

liberal is a dumb term, progressive is a far better term.

what the heck do you mean tree hugging communist? whats wrong with tree hugging? whats wrong with communism in a pure form?

would you be happy if we called all "conservative" racist nazi homophobes?
Reyataz / Norvir / Truvada/ Androgel 5 g / 2 days
1/29/07 14 T, 300 k V, 1.8 %
2/22/07 197 T, 247 V, 6.8 %
3/27/07 164 T, <50 V, 5.4 %
5/28/07 177 T, <50 V, 8.2 %
7/28/07 214 T, <50 V, 9.6 %
10/3/07 380 T, <50 V, 10 % no more Mepron, Famvir

Offline JamieD

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  • Posts: 259
Re: Are there any conservatives here?
« Reply #9 on: August 19, 2007, 01:40:06 AM »
I would say that I am conservative about money and other fiscal issues, although I am a very strong supporter of national health care since I feel that saves the nation more money in the long run.

I believe John McCain (Senator of Arizona from the US) expressed my feelings best on social issues when he said: It's un- Republican (regarding a gay marriage ammendment). I believe the government should stay out of most social issues. I am for the least amount of government control over things, so long as the nation and its people can still function. I believe if left to their own devices most people would figure out how to survive.

Whats wrong with communism in its true form? I believe what I earn I should be able to keep, and what you earn you should be able to keep. A small amount of taxes are neccessary, but nothing like what we have now. Why should someone who works half as hard as I do make what I make?

I wouldn't care what you called conservatives since it's not true and it therefore wouldn't bother me.

Offline Oceanbeach

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Re: Are there any conservatives here?
« Reply #10 on: August 19, 2007, 01:42:15 AM »
Hey Jamie,

I don't know but, I live in the California Redwoods and have never hugged a tree.  I have had AIDS for 11 years and am very outspoken on all HIV funding issues.  My distaste for the current administration is very well documented but, I do not lean so far to the left, I can not eat the right wing of chicken...  Over the past couple of years, I have written thousands of words on RWCA and other HIV funding issues.  I published a web site on RWCA and the possible loss of funds in the State of California.  It has been viewed world-wide and approximately 10 percent of those participating were other forum members.  I once entertained myself by having a special award printed.  It welcomed Michael Sonomabeach to the Republican Party Inner Circle and put Dan Quayles name on it.  I framed it, hung it in my office next to the window and died of laughter every time someone thought it was real.

There are many people who are diametrically opposed to every opinion I have and we have some of the best conversations.  Have the best day
Michael

Offline GSOgymrat

  • Member
  • Posts: 5,009
  • HIV+ since 1993. INTJ
Re: Are there any conservatives here?
« Reply #11 on: August 19, 2007, 02:03:12 AM »
Liberal and conservative are vague terms and relative in nature. I prefer to give an opinion on a particular issue.

Offline David_CA

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  • Posts: 3,246
  • Joined: March 2006
Re: Are there any conservatives here?
« Reply #12 on: August 19, 2007, 02:08:00 AM »
I don't regularly hug trees, but I avoid cutting them whenever possible.  The same goes for how I deal with other aspects of nature.  How in the hell does that relate to communism?  You want national health care and to pay a small amount of taxes (don't we all?)... what's going to fund health care?  You think you'll get national health coverage with little government interference in people's lives?  Good luck with that.  I agree with egello; progressive is a better term. 

David
Black Friday 03-03-2006
03-23-06 CD4 359 @27.4% VL 75,938
06-01-06 CD4 462 @24.3% VL > 100,000
08-15-06 CD4 388 @22.8% VL >  "
10-21-06 CD4 285 @21.9% VL >  "
  Atripla started 12-01-2006
01-08-07 CD4 429 @26.8% VL 1872!
05-08-07 CD4 478 @28.1% VL 740
08-03-07 CD4 509 @31.8% VL 370
11-06-07 CD4 570 @30.0% VL 140
02-21-08 CD4 648 @32.4% VL 600
05-19-08 CD4 695 @33.1% VL < 48 undetectable!
08-21-08 CD4 725 @34.5%
11-11-08 CD4 672 @39.5%
02-11-09 CD4 773 @36.8%
05-11-09 CD4 615 @36.2%
08-19-09 CD4 770 @38.5%
11-19-09 CD4 944 @33.7%
02-17-10 CD4 678 @39.9%  
06-03-10 CD4 768 @34.9%
09-21-10 CD4 685 @40.3%
01-10-11 CD4 908 @36.3%
05-23-11 CD4 846 @36.8% VL 80
02-13-12 CD4 911 @41.4% VL<20
You must be the change you want to see in the world.  Mahatma Gandhi

Offline carousel

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Re: Are there any conservatives here?
« Reply #13 on: August 19, 2007, 03:35:15 AM »
I think that there are many of this site who would not choose to align themselves with the homophobic statements that some on the right continue to attack Gay and Lesbians with. 

I do think that is incongruous for Gay Republicans or Conservatives in this country, that they can align themselves with them on economic issues, but are willing to forget or turn away when faced with what amounts to messages and poloices of hate.

That's well before you talk about the way that Governments have dealt with HIV.  You have only to look at the failure of George Bush's policy of Abstinence, to see out of touch they are with what is going on.

Like the Republicans, the Conservative Government we had to endure during the 80's and most of the 90's played around with rolling back the state.  However, they were both unwilling to follow the philosophy without meddling on social issues, continuing to tell people the way they should live their lives.  The joke of so many highly placed members of this movement, who were caught out making statements on morality, to be caught out with a hooker/ rent boy/ gay lover/ drug habit etc seems lost of them.  Oh of course, they weren't really good conservatives.

I have no problem with being called liberal, progressive, or whatever term you want, a tree hugger, a communist.  Just don't call me conservative.

Offline JamieD

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  • Posts: 259
Re: Are there any conservatives here?
« Reply #14 on: August 19, 2007, 03:46:41 AM »
I don't regularly hug trees, but I avoid cutting them whenever possible.  The same goes for how I deal with other aspects of nature.  How in the hell does that relate to communism?  You want national health care and to pay a small amount of taxes (don't we all?)... what's going to fund health care?  You think you'll get national health coverage with little government interference in people's lives?  Good luck with that.  I agree with egello; progressive is a better term. 

David

When we do away (almost) entirely with government welfare programmes we'll have more then enough.  :).

Let me tell you a story that me very anti-welfare.
When I was a young boy my parents died. I lived with my grandmother for about 10 years until she was no longer able to care for me and my siblings. We were shipped off to the United States to live in foster care (we were all dual citizens). While in foster care I encountered a few (3 or 4) foster parents who lived entirely off of welfare and the money given to them by the foster care system. Ever since I met those leeches I have been very anti-welfare, except for the most extreme cases.

Offline JamieD

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  • Posts: 259
Re: Are there any conservatives here?
« Reply #15 on: August 19, 2007, 03:53:37 AM »
I think that there are many of this site who would not choose to align themselves with the homophobic statements that some on the right continue to attack Gay and Lesbians with. 

I do think that is incongruous for Gay Republicans or Conservatives in this country, that they can align themselves with them on economic issues, but are willing to forget or turn away when faced with what amounts to messages and poloices of hate.

That's well before you talk about the way that Governments have dealt with HIV.  You have only to look at the failure of George Bush's policy of Abstinence, to see out of touch they are with what is going on.

Like the Republicans, the Conservative Government we had to endure during the 80's and most of the 90's played around with rolling back the state.  However, they were both unwilling to follow the philosophy without meddling on social issues, continuing to tell people the way they should live their lives.  The joke of so many highly placed members of this movement, who were caught out making statements on morality, to be caught out with a hooker/ rent boy/ gay lover/ drug habit etc seems lost of them.  Oh of course, they weren't really good conservatives.

I have no problem with being called liberal, progressive, or whatever term you want, a tree hugger, a communist.  Just don't call me conservative.

Seeing as I don't believe in God (or atleast I think I don't), I don't align myself with members of the "right" that are religious zealots either. People seem to forget that the left has a tonne of religious zealots, too. Of course, they're all "new agers", but from what I have experienced they are usually just as militant about their faith as the "right" is. Just cause you aren't telling me I am going to hell doesn't mean I am anymore interested in hearing about your faith.

Offline JamieD

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Re: Are there any conservatives here?
« Reply #16 on: August 19, 2007, 03:55:51 AM »
most of the 90's

Clinton was nobody's liberal. His wife may be, but he sure wasn't.

Offline mjmel

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Re: Are there any conservatives here?
« Reply #17 on: August 19, 2007, 07:33:10 AM »
 I'm into that liberal tree-hugging stuff. Rough on the cheeks but very gratifying.
 :-*
Mike

Offline Dachshund

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  • Posts: 5,954
Re: Are there any conservatives here?
« Reply #18 on: August 19, 2007, 07:41:36 AM »
To answer your question, there are a few conservatives around here. The most vocal of the lot would probably be Jake and Grinch, but don't expect them to put out the conservative welcome mat for the likes of you. Your support of universal healthcare takes care of that. If truly conservative, you start baying towards the moon at the mere mention of universal healthcare. You will need no facts to back you up in the healthcare debate, you just repeat the word socialism over and over and over again ad nauseum. We've got some oxymoronic, conservative mo's around here that agree with you on social issues. Believe me, they make the Log Cabin crew look like a bunch of losers, but I think you'll find their fashion sense intolerable.

Now to answer your second question, are most pozzies Democrats? Hell no, I imagine given the level of discourse around here, that when it comes to politics the vast majority of the infected have never even registered to vote. No my friend, the majority became infected because of (like you) their abiding propensity for the butt sex. Politics be damned when you love the wiener. Folks politics do seem to shift a little to the left, post infection, and you find yourself on a Ryan White waiting list. One thing I have no doubt about, that even the most conservative around here would be on their knees sucking Mao's dick if that was what it would take to obtain their script of Atripla.


edited for early morning typos
 
« Last Edit: August 19, 2007, 07:47:55 AM by Dachshund »

Offline Grinch

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Re: Are there any conservatives here?
« Reply #19 on: August 19, 2007, 09:53:12 AM »
  I wouldn't recommend stating you are conservative. Take it back while you still can.
Dachshund let me explain one more time.  I am not against universal healthcare, universal means everyone has it.
I am against state run healthcare.  The government doesn't do it well.  The government will never do it well, and frankly I want good healthcare.  Thats it, thats all.

Thunter you complain about sweeping statements yet you didn't mind when people called all conservatives homophobic religious nut job  pedophiles.  You didn't mind when I asked over and over to be left out of that statement and was told: Too bad align yourself with the group and you're one of them.
So by your own rules, you're a tree hugging communist.

Jamie I'll welcome you to the boards but really take your statement back.  If you don't believe, no one should have one bit of fiscal advantage for hard work and effort over those that don't work, or think those that do succeed despite AIDS should have their money confiscated and given to those that choose not to work.
You'll never be taken seriously here.  Your every word will be paraphrased, taken out of context and dismissed as anecdotal.

When someone calls you racist because you voted for a candidate you'll not be allowed to demand an apology, and moderators will ignore your claim of foul.

You will be allowed to say hello or offer a bit of advice here and there but do not think your opinion will be allowed.

Go with the flow, speak of yourself in third person, post links to yourself and porn, replace your avatar with one of you shirtless, and call everyone that feels differently than you a heartless idiot.  Life will be much easier for you here.

Please not my use of the word choose.  This implies a choice not an inability

Offline RapidRod

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Re: Are there any conservatives here?
« Reply #20 on: August 19, 2007, 10:10:29 AM »
I don't vote a straight party ticket. PERIOD.. I'm neither a Republician, Democrat or a Liberal.

Offline Dachshund

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Re: Are there any conservatives here?
« Reply #21 on: August 19, 2007, 11:26:23 AM »
How 'bout a walk down memory lane. ;)


http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=4406.0

Offline thunter34

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  • His name is Carl.
Re: Are there any conservatives here?
« Reply #22 on: August 19, 2007, 11:32:18 AM »
Thunter you complain about sweeping statements yet you didn't mind when people called all conservatives homophobic religious nut job  pedophiles.  You didn't mind when I asked over and over to be left out of that statement and was told: Too bad align yourself with the group and you're one of them.
So by your own rules, you're a tree hugging communist.

Based on the tone of this post, my gut reaction is to wanna bitch slap you right back Grinch.  But I can't- because I don't know what you are talking about, really.  My own rules?  I think you need to check yourself because I don't think I would make the kind of sweeping statement you mention above.  It just doesn't sound like me to paint ALL conservatives as homophobic religious nut job pedophiles.    

Most, yes....just not all. <===That's a joke.

You seem to be referencing a specific thread- and I don't know which one.  

As for my shirtless avatar:  Don't hate me cuz I'm beautiful.   :-*

kthxbye!
AIDS isn't for sissies.

Offline thunter34

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  • His name is Carl.
Re: Are there any conservatives here?
« Reply #23 on: August 19, 2007, 11:37:36 AM »
How 'bout a walk down memory lane. ;)


http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=4406.0


Ah, Doxie....memories.  One of the first threads I clicked on when I first joined here and followed, er....religiously.

That one and "I love Jody Day" (when I thought Jody's last name must be Day).
AIDS isn't for sissies.

Offline thunter34

  • Member
  • Posts: 7,311
  • His name is Carl.
Re: Are there any conservatives here?
« Reply #24 on: August 19, 2007, 12:20:25 PM »
Grinch-

Behold....


http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=13943.msg173622#msg173622

I don't have a history of blindly painting conservatives / right-wingers with a broad brush.  See?
« Last Edit: August 19, 2007, 12:22:13 PM by thunter34 »
AIDS isn't for sissies.

Offline JamieD

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  • Posts: 259
Re: Are there any conservatives here?
« Reply #25 on: August 19, 2007, 12:58:26 PM »
If you don't believe, no one should have one bit of fiscal advantage for hard work and effort over those that don't work, or think those that do succeed despite AIDS should have their money confiscated and given to those that choose not to work.

I don't believe in that. Or should I say that people should have fiscal advantage for hard work and effort over those who don't work. I do believe that those who succees despite AIDS should not have their money taken and given to those who choose not to work. That is communism. I = Lover of Capitalism and the Free Market.


Okay, maybe I am not the most Right Wing of Conservatives. I am pretty socially progressive myself, just fiscally conservative and I think the government needs to butt out of most issues. Sorry if I painted myself to be a social conservative, because I am not. But what I believe about social issues doesn't matter. I believe that people should be able to live their lives without government interferance so long as it doesn't harm themselves or others.

Offline David_CA

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Re: Are there any conservatives here?
« Reply #26 on: August 19, 2007, 12:59:40 PM »
Jamie,

I once considered myself conservative... way back when.  I must have been close to your age (if the age in your profile is correct).  The person I was talking to told me to "... live a bit longer, see a few more things outside of YOUR world, then come back and tell me why you consider yourself a conservative."  Well, I have lived longer and seen a lot more.  I've see a group of people continually call themselves conservatives who seem to have the same 'naivety' that I did when I was 21-22.  This group is called the 'Republican Party'.  Sure, conservatism sounded good in theory and on paper, but it sure didn't seem to fit in to the problems I saw going on around me.  The differece is that I was young and hadn't had much life experience; these folks were using it to their benefit.

You say "Why should someone who works half as hard as I do make what I make?"  I'm not sure what you mean by that.  If you're referring to a person on welfare or some other assistance, I doubt they're making all that much (none of the folks I know who are 'subsidized' are) or you're not working in the right job.  I'll can tell you that I easily make more than twice what some people make and don't work half as hard.  I also know people who work about the same or less than me and have incomes magnitudes higher than mine.  I don't begrudge them, as long as their income is not from taking advantage of others.  Nor do I begrudge those who can't or don't work for what ever reason, as long as it's legit. 

I'd like to know what the percentage of US income is available after taxes versus that of citizens of other countries.  I know we have a very high standard of living, even with high taxes.  Over 1/3 of my paycheck goes to taxes, but I'm still doing ok... better than many, not so good as others. 

I think you'll find that many people, especially those with HIV / AIDS have problems with conservatives / Republicans that go WAY back to the early '80's.  You'll also find many gay folks who wouldn't even consider voting for a Republican based on how the party's acted towards issues that effect individuals, especially gays (marriage, for example. 

So, yes, I'm sure that there are many here that have conservative view on some things but wouldn't be caught dead calling themselves conservatives.

David
Black Friday 03-03-2006
03-23-06 CD4 359 @27.4% VL 75,938
06-01-06 CD4 462 @24.3% VL > 100,000
08-15-06 CD4 388 @22.8% VL >  "
10-21-06 CD4 285 @21.9% VL >  "
  Atripla started 12-01-2006
01-08-07 CD4 429 @26.8% VL 1872!
05-08-07 CD4 478 @28.1% VL 740
08-03-07 CD4 509 @31.8% VL 370
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05-19-08 CD4 695 @33.1% VL < 48 undetectable!
08-21-08 CD4 725 @34.5%
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05-11-09 CD4 615 @36.2%
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11-19-09 CD4 944 @33.7%
02-17-10 CD4 678 @39.9%  
06-03-10 CD4 768 @34.9%
09-21-10 CD4 685 @40.3%
01-10-11 CD4 908 @36.3%
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Offline Dachshund

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Re: Are there any conservatives here?
« Reply #27 on: August 19, 2007, 01:11:14 PM »
Kid, communism is a philosophy in name only. Oh sure, supposedly the old Soviet Union or Castro's Cuba and Communist China have or had this form of government, but it is in name only. Pure communism as defined by Marx and Engels has never truly defined a government and never will. Do a little research.



Here you go comrade

http://www.mdx.ac.uk/WWW/STUDY/xeng1847.htm
« Last Edit: August 19, 2007, 01:13:07 PM by Dachshund »

Offline JamieD

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Re: Are there any conservatives here?
« Reply #28 on: August 19, 2007, 01:38:24 PM »
David_NC,

That's odd since it is generally believed most people become more conservative as they grow up.

The saying "If you're not a liberal when you're young then you have no heart. If you're a liberal when your older then you have no brain".  :P comes to mind.

Offline libvet

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Re: Are there any conservatives here?
« Reply #29 on: August 19, 2007, 01:55:58 PM »
Folks politics do seem to shift a little to the left, post infection, and you find yourself on a Ryan White waiting list. One thing I have no doubt about, that even the most conservative around here would be on their knees sucking Mao's dick if that was what it would take to obtain their script of Atripla.



True that.  The only real problem I have with many conservatives is painting those of us who are liberal (and I proudly am just that) as "tree hugging communists".   It gets even worse when a conservative is on some form of public assistance and rail against those plans that provide assistance, such as being on Medicare/Medicaid and being against universal health care or bitching about disability and/or food stamps while being on disability or food stamps. 

I am on none of those things.  I pay a pretty penny for my insurance and have been employed (sometimes gainfully, sometimes not quite as gainfully) for the vast majority of my adult life and have worked in fast food and retail between decent jobs just to get by.   I pay my federal, sales, gas, and property taxes and don't bitch about it (except I would prefer more of our tax dollars were spent on helping raise the standard of living for Americans instead of paying for wars of choice or spending more than the next 26 combined on the military while people in this country are working full time jobs and have no access to basic health care).  I served in the military and was discharged honorably.  I own a home and I pay my bills.

But because I have different political viewpoint (gays should be allowed marry, serve in the military, adopt - we should invest in our education and infrastructure - we should have universal health care - we should feed children and adults who need food - we should assist the elderly and the disabled - that religion should not be shoved down our throats or made law of the land - that workers should be able to collectively bargain and have redress against unfair or unsafe practices - that we should try to live in a semblance of harmony with the environment and not just plunder or foul our own nests in the process.......etc) I am routinely labeled a "tree hugging communist" compared with people like Mao and Stalin and Castro.

I don't care for the "I've got mine, so fuck you!" attitude of the right-wing that seems to permeate a goodly portion of the party that is now the party of the right: republicans.   And I don't mind saying that I think being gay and republican is akin to being a chicken for Col. Sanders.   Generally the response from a gay republican is they are republican because they are "fiscally conservative" and are willing to overlook the fact that the party they have aligned themselves with used them as a boogie-man and disrespects them in worst possible manner to get votes.  My freedom and equality is simply not for sale for thirty pieces of silver.

The strangest thing is someone is gay, republican, on some form of public assistance pointing and has HIV.   I don't what to make of that.  Stockholm syndrome?  And they point their fingers at someone like me whose entire affair with public assistance involves three months of unemployment compensation while I was between jobs and diss me as unpatriotic and a communist.   I don't mind admitting that it rankles to have someone who is benefiting from my tax dollars pointing fingers at me.

But at the end of the day, I don't mind my tax dollars going to feed the hungry, put shelter over the homeless, educating the populace, putting medicine in their cabinet and paying for medical care.  There will always be some people who abuse those programs and game the system, but for the most part, the people my tax dollars are helping need the help and I don't resent that at all.  I can only hope that if the time comes that I need those programs, they will not have been gutted to pay for new bomber that performs no better than the old one.

Offline David_CA

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Re: Are there any conservatives here?
« Reply #30 on: August 19, 2007, 01:59:20 PM »
David_NC,

That's odd since it is generally believed most people become more conservative as they grow up.

The saying "If you're not a liberal when you're young then you have no heart. If you're a liberal when your older then you have no brain".  :P comes to mind.

I believe it's generally believed that most people are not living with HIV or AIDS.  Most people are also not gay.  Most people won't struggle with these issues as they get older or just grow out of them.  I'd be curious of how many minority groups (I'm putting people with HIV/AIDS and gays into this minority group) become so conservative.  I'll bet that the saying you quote is from people who live with none of these issues and / or have never lived with a disease that has killed so many friends, relatives, and loved ones that wasn't even acknowledged (Regan and AIDS) for years.  Many of 'us' have a slightly different perspective than the mainstream population.

There's a BIG difference between conservative, Republican, and fiscal responsibility.  One doesn't have to look hard to see the evidence.  The current Republicans have 'bastardized' the term conservative in my mind.

David
« Last Edit: August 19, 2007, 02:04:16 PM by David_NC »
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Offline bear60

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Re: Are there any conservatives here?
« Reply #31 on: August 19, 2007, 02:24:53 PM »
Jamie
As for being liberal when you grow older: I ran into a group of GRANNIES FOR PEACE on my way across Rittenhouse Square this week.  They were handing out fliers that asked us to call our Senator and Congressman to demand an end to the war in Iraq. 
I gave them the big ole thumbs up....and took a flier.
Age has nothing to do with political association.  People do,however, change over the course of their lives and as they change intellectually and etc they may change their politics.
Most gay people are democrats because itsd the democrats who will listen to what we have to say. Its kind of telling that NOT ONE Republican showed up for the presidential candidates QUESTION AND ANSWER SESSION  on Logo channel sponsored by the Human Rights Campaign.  Hillary was there, so was Obama and Kucinich . Too bad I missed it.
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Offline tester8888

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Re: Are there any conservatives here?
« Reply #32 on: August 19, 2007, 02:31:49 PM »
I consider myself an Independent.  Which frequently causes me to be the receipient of flak when discussing things with my peers.  My favorite taunt to receive is "Oh, so you just like throwing away your vote."  Once again, people assume that I vote for the Independent candidates, not what is on my mind.  Geeezzz.  Can't anyone see beyond the labels on a ballot.  I hate the party system the way it exists.  I would do anything if I could abolish it completely!!!  I vote for the candidate or issue as I see best, irrespective of the party affiliation.  When subsets such as conservative or liberal are added in, I just want to freaking puke!  It's like the person who goes for shock factor in order to get attention.
In a eutopia, I think that communism, socialism, or whatever label is considered correct presently, is the ideal model for political economy, however we never have and never will be in eutopia.  So, all things aside, capitalism is not a bad model for a political economy.  Mixed economy and social market economy are not bad contenders either.
The number one hurdle to progression in the US,  the two-party system stalemate.  My family is dyed-in-the-wool republicans, and I can't freaking stand it!
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Offline pozniceguy

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Re: Are there any conservatives here?
« Reply #33 on: August 19, 2007, 05:16:57 PM »
I am still amazed at how much BS can be generated over a "word"  does the label really define you???  are you immortally bound to some particular "brand" of political "group think"....I have read so far that things change with age , with sickness, with ability to earn money, with the necessity to use certain sponsored programs...etc.......well as someone who has been through all of those types of issues on a personal basis either for me or some one very close to me  I think I can venture a fair opinion.    Age=  yes the perspective of seeing things through more experienced eyes does influence my opinion, at the same time I have also seen the  definition of the "power words"  change pretty dramatically over time...  many conservative ideas would have been socialist or even communist in past times  ( not too far past) many liberal ideas would have also suffered the same gerrymandering of their meanings....sickness = being sick with a long term debilitating illness can really affect how you see the whole world as well as the sponsored programs that purport to help you....you may believe that every possible effort should be made on your behalf...nearly impossible but not irrational....just who is going to get the short end of the money available for this????    ability to earn money=   I have been in positions that cover the entire spectrum...minimum wage worker...military pay... management salary with great perks...dependent on Social Security  check......all had different affects on what I believed or saw as "correct" .....and now as a HIV+..getting the social stigma along with the medical issues has lent a new perspective on many issues......

I now have rationally concluded that there is no such thing as "conservative" or "neocon" or democrat or Republican.......all of them have a series of blinders that are called the party line  but when you try to pin any one of them down on a specific issue and look at their voting record you will see a dramatically different position....  they do whatever will get them re-elected.....so take the time ...listen to  and question candidates..then VOTE...it is your only true freedom.
remember the good times...honor the past but don't live there
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Offline jack

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Re: Are there any conservatives here?
« Reply #34 on: August 19, 2007, 05:35:36 PM »
Utopia would be a true conservative political party. No taxes on interest or divis. A flat tax. Congress should only be in session for 6 months and live in dorms while in DC. No Senator or Congressman should be allowed to own property in DC. Term limits.
I am against abortion but its legal so go do what you want. I have no idea how I would feel if my daughters needed or wanted an abortion,so I am not gonna judge some one else. I could give a fukc who marries who. I dont understand how gay marriage threatens traditional marriage.
The health system is a mess and one reason is because the government has been involved for years with medicare. Its not the only reason its a mess but its part of the problem. Prices would skyrocket under a government system so some of rationing would come into play. We have discussed the health issue ad nauseum,and it hurts my head to think about it. But I would like to know if the Insurance cos own paper companies because if they dont they should with amount of worthless paperwork they generate. And why does it take months and sometimes longer to bill me for something? no wonder everything costs so much,they are losing a fortune on paper products and inefficient billing procedures. It is  a mess. How do you bring amount market efficiencies in a system where the consumer does not make most of the choices and price is often not a factor. Who know what their dr or pharmacy is charging? fuck,I have no idea,I just put in on my insurance. Before I had insurance I do remember paying 1000 a month for my azt and some other poison.
I am against most government regs on business,but who the fuck was watching the store when mortgage companies starting loaning money to people to buy homes they couldnt afford with no money down and no interest for two years? I do remember the idiot greenspan telling people to take out these kinds of mortgages thus implying he would bail out aggressive institutions and stupid consumers. Hello? S and L crisis all over again.
Greenspan bailed out the banks and financial institutions through out the 90s(south america,hong kong,Long term capital)for their mistakes and now they all expect to be bailed out again. I say let them go out of business and if you are person who all of sudden cant afford your house note,tough shit, give it back to the mortgage company.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2007, 05:38:59 PM by jack »

Offline jack

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Re: Are there any conservatives here?
« Reply #35 on: August 19, 2007, 05:42:55 PM »
Oh yeah,while I am at it. How can any true conservative party make laws against recreational drug use? WTF is the war on drugs? Its a war on the poor and many young African Americans. We have created a whole generations of criminals cause we dont want people to get high. Its expensive,its immoral,and its a fucking sin.
You talk about a war we cant win. We have been fighting the war on drugs for thirty years. Look at the prisoners of that war,if you wanna talk about prisoners of war.

Offline jessem3s

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Re: Are there any conservatives here?
« Reply #36 on: August 19, 2007, 05:55:46 PM »
Am I the only person here who is not a liberal or a democrat? Reading some of these threads makes me think I am the only one here who is not a tree hugging communist.  :-\ Is everyone who is affected by HIV disease a democrat? I get a lot of slack when I tell people I am a gay conservative. People tell me gay republicans are "sad", and then I laugh that they assume because I am a conservative that I must be a republican. How narrow minded.

I think that alot of people like democrats because they fight for causes. :)
I myself don't like to be a part of the political brawl, but my father/mother are republicans (die hard republicans, but they don't like Bush).

Offline MoltenStorm

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Re: Are there any conservatives here?
« Reply #37 on: August 19, 2007, 06:07:15 PM »
I also heard a saying once that made a lot of sense. "Scratch a Republican, and you'll find a Conservative. Scratch a Conservative, and you'll find a Racist." I have yet to see that statement falsified in my personal experience. I'm not saying it's completely true. I'm just saying I haven't seen it disproven.
"Love is always patient and kind. It is never jealous. Love is never boastful nor conceited. It is never rude or selfish. It does not take offense and is not resentful. Love takes no pleasure in other people's sins, but delights in the truth. It is always ready to excuse, to trust, to hope, and to endure whatever comes." - 1 Corinthians 13:4-7, adaptation in A Walk To Remember

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Offline JamieD

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Re: Are there any conservatives here?
« Reply #38 on: August 19, 2007, 06:07:54 PM »
Jamie
As for being liberal when you grow older: I ran into a group of GRANNIES FOR PEACE on my way across Rittenhouse

Do I REALLY need to clarify that I don't think every single solitary person on the planet follows the same rules? Do I really need to clarify that or isn't it just implied?

My grandmother is a Grannie for Peace. She even has a bumper sticker on her car that says exactly that. I realise that those rules don't apply to EVERYONE. Sheesh.

Offline JamieD

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Re: Are there any conservatives here?
« Reply #39 on: August 19, 2007, 06:09:26 PM »
I also heard a saying once that made a lot of sense. "Scratch a Republican, and you'll find a Conservative. Scratch a Conservative, and you'll find a Racist." I have yet to see that statement falsified in my personal experience. I'm not saying it's completely true. I'm just saying I haven't seen it disproven.

I date exclusively black men, and I am half-latino. I am not a racist.

Offline Cliff

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Re: Are there any conservatives here?
« Reply #40 on: August 19, 2007, 06:48:33 PM »
I'm with Ford, political labels are meaningless.  Jamie- In this thread you start off waving the conservative banner and then under pressure you seem to have moved mostly to the left.  I don't know too many "conservatives" who proclaim to be for gay marriage, only date black men and want socialised medicine.  You wouldn't be very popular in the Republican party.

Labels are divisive and restrictive.  Most people have a mix of views and don't neatly fall into labels.  So why try and cling on to one?

I think people who openly accept labels just don't think about issues.  Like being against social programs because someone has seen folks take advantage of them.  It's not a well thought out argument against welfare programs.

Most folks fall neatly down the centre.  Whatever and wherever that is.

Offline Ann

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Re: Are there any conservatives here?
« Reply #41 on: August 19, 2007, 07:14:37 PM »
I date exclusively black men, and I am half-latino. I am not a racist.

But isn't dating exclusively from one race group being... er... racist? It was last time I looked... ::)

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Offline libvet

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Re: Are there any conservatives here?
« Reply #42 on: August 19, 2007, 07:36:41 PM »
David_NC,

That's odd since it is generally believed most people become more conservative as they grow up.

The saying "If you're not a liberal when you're young then you have no heart. If you're a liberal when your older then you have no brain".  :P comes to mind.

I don't think it is wisdom that causes many people to become more hidebound and conservative as they grow up.  I think it's a combination of things and none of them are very flattering.   Jack is correct in that there are few people who really walk the walk with regards to conservatism.  I think there are probably plenty of conservatives who align themselves that way because they have a certain idealism about fiscal conservatism and ignore the hideous social record of what passes itself off as the conservative party (and their fiscal record isn't exactly anything to crow about either).

To the point however, I think there are probably four things that are the biggest factors in many people becoming more conservative as they get older. 

1.  Fear:  Pure and simple, change frightens people and they desperately wish to hold back the winds of social change.  It is not uncommon.  Some of the stuff that conservatives of today wouldn't dream of doing away with would appall the conservatives of yesteryear as being obscenely liberal.  These are people that have an idealistic view of "how things were when I was young" and don't understand that their experience wasn't universal.  A good example of this would the people who nostalgically look at the 50's.  Yeah....it was pretty nice for the average middle class white man.  Women, gays, blacks, and others paint a different picture of that "idealistic" past.

2. Religion: It sorta plays into the whole fear thing in some ways.  As people get older they see the end of life approaching and cleave to religion to cope with the very real fear of one's own mortality.  As institutions go, religion is almost universally socially conservative.  So they get involved with religion and move toward the position of the church.

3. Apathy: Some people forget their own roots.  They have "made it" as it were and instead of feeling blessed, they get this attitude of "everyone has/had the same opportunities as I had, so their is no excuse for being poor or needing a helping hand".   They just put blinders on to the harsh reality that some people face and have been unable to overcome.  A good example is a woman who I met picking while volunteering at the food bank.  She did all the right things (as such things are measured).  She got married to someone who was able to provide a middle class life and she had a couple of kids.  Her husband died and she was left with no work experience to speak of, some insurance money, and two kids to feed.  She was using her savings to try to put herself through school and then she got hit with another blow: kidney failure.   So no matter which way she turned, she was screwed and was now having to rely on public assistance just to get by.   People just forget about how harsh life can really be, even if you did everything you were told would make you successful.

4. Greed: Yes.  It's not really polite to say so, but there are is subset of people who finally become successful (and it's usually something that happens as one gets toward their middle years) and live a great life and bitch endlessly about anything that takes a single penny out of their pocket.   These are the people that will vote against any bond measure or tax that is required for any progress or maintenance of infrastructure.  They simply don't feel they have any responsibility to contribute to society they are a part of.  While I certainly can understand people not wanting to give up any money, I like being able to call the fire department and have them show up with good equipment to put out the fire or go to the library and pick up a book that is more recent than a decade old or not have to dodge potholes on the way to work or have public parks to relax in or any number of things.  But some people resent every penny they pay into the public coffers no matter what use that money is put to.


So I don't think it's a truism that becoming conservative as one gets older is based on intellect.  There are some who jump through some pretty interesting mental gymnastics to rationalize their positions, but for the most part, they tend to be pretty transparent when examined.   So in actuality, becoming more conservative as one grows older is as much based on emotions as anything else.


Offline Grinch

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Re: Are there any conservatives here?
« Reply #43 on: August 19, 2007, 11:47:15 PM »
Quote
Scratch a Conservative, and you'll find a Racist.

My black wife is going to be really mad when she finds out I'm a racist.
 I take personal offense to such statements and will request one more time you and everyone else in this forum stop making them.

Offline MoltenStorm

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Re: Are there any conservatives here?
« Reply #44 on: August 19, 2007, 11:52:43 PM »
So, if you slight a minority, it's racism; however, if you slight the majority, it's not racism? I don't see how that logic works.

Like using the term "Cracker" to describe a white person. People don't frown upon that as a racist slur even though it came about during the same time as the 'N' word. 'Cracker' was used as a derogatory term for whites derived from the sound made by a whip during the time of slavery.
"Love is always patient and kind. It is never jealous. Love is never boastful nor conceited. It is never rude or selfish. It does not take offense and is not resentful. Love takes no pleasure in other people's sins, but delights in the truth. It is always ready to excuse, to trust, to hope, and to endure whatever comes." - 1 Corinthians 13:4-7, adaptation in A Walk To Remember

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Offline tester8888

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Re: Are there any conservatives here?
« Reply #45 on: August 19, 2007, 11:59:17 PM »
Oh my, I thought cracker had to do with saltines being white, and honkey was a reconstruction era term.  Gawd this and another topic is gettin' hott.

There is enough evil in the world without us being cruel to each other!
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Offline Cliff

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Re: Are there any conservatives here?
« Reply #46 on: August 20, 2007, 02:25:01 AM »
So, if you slight a minority, it's racism; however, if you slight the majority, it's not racism? I don't see how that logic works.

Like using the term "Cracker" to describe a white person. People don't frown upon that as a racist slur even though it came about during the same time as the 'N' word. 'Cracker' was used as a derogatory term for whites derived from the sound made by a whip during the time of slavery.
I think you'll find that using cracker is not that acceptable.  I wouldn't (and shouldn't) go to my workplace and throw around that word.  In fact, I can't think of too many places where it would be acceptable to use that word.  Both words are offensive, but not necessarily racism.  Two different concepts.

Offline northernguy

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Re: Are there any conservatives here?
« Reply #47 on: August 20, 2007, 02:55:22 AM »
But isn't dating exclusively from one race group being... er... racist? It was last time I looked... ::)


Glad I wasn't the only one thinking there was a contradiction there.

I am a proud Liberal with a capital L (as in the Liberal Party of Canada) http://www.liberal.ca/default_e.aspx

The party that brought us universal healthcare, Canada Pension and Same-Sex Marriage.  I always thought it strange that the USA made Liberal a dirty word.  What's wrong with wanting to help your fellow citizens?  If you left it to every individual to fund charity do you think the USA would have disability for those who genuinely cannot work or programs like Ryan White (flawed though they may be)?

And here being Liberal doesn't mean being fiscally irresponsible.  The Liberals tackled Canada's deficit that was leading us into a debt wall.  We've gone from having the worst debt/GDP ratio in the G7 to having the best, and continue to pay down the national debt.  Did it mean sacrifice?  You bet, healthcare took a hit, as did the military and Canada Pension Plan contributions went up.  That's the the thing that bothers me most about the Republicans-they let people believe you can have something for nothing.  Lets have a war in Iraq and Afghanistan and  no American has to pay increased taxes for it, in fact we'll lower taxes!  What a crock.  There's a bad debt shock coming your way, and it won't be pretty.
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Offline Dachshund

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Re: Are there any conservatives here?
« Reply #48 on: August 20, 2007, 04:45:01 AM »
I take personal offense to the homophobic and racially polarizing politics employed by republicans/conservatives. Latest example was the smear campaign the republican/conservative party used to defeat Harold Ford Jr. in his bid for the senate. Using race for political gain has been a mainstay of republicans and all one need to do is read the history of Nixon's southern strategy. I personally believe most conservatives/republicans are racist and will continue to point that out whenever I want.


p.s. after reading the "joke" you posted the other day Molten you are in no position to discuss racism or reverse racism with anyone.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2007, 05:34:55 AM by Dachshund »

Offline Grinch

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Re: Are there any conservatives here?
« Reply #49 on: August 20, 2007, 08:41:52 AM »
If you are going to continue stating all conservatives are homophobic and racist I will one last time ask that I be specifically excluded from that statement.  I do not subscribe to such things, I find them abhorrent, and I have repeatedly asked you to stop.

Moderators please explain why this is ok?

Offline Dachshund

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Re: Are there any conservatives here?
« Reply #50 on: August 20, 2007, 09:04:36 AM »
To make myself clear I said I personally believe MOST conservatives/republicans are racist. I arrive at this belief through personal experiences and stand by my statement.   
« Last Edit: August 20, 2007, 09:09:18 AM by Dachshund »

Online Andy Velez

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Re: Are there any conservatives here?
« Reply #51 on: August 20, 2007, 09:38:30 AM »
There have been a number of thoughtful and restrained comments entered here. This  subject is one that has all the potential in the world to go ballistic. So far it hasn't although it's teetered a few times at the edge. I'm grateful for the restraint members have shown as well as the attempts made to express positions in a thoughtful manner. 

Grinch, I think Dachs has clarified his position hopefully sufficiently to satisfy you. Let's not go over that edge on this one.




 
Andy Velez

Offline Grinch

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Re: Are there any conservatives here?
« Reply #52 on: August 20, 2007, 10:56:30 AM »
Andy,
In other threads it has been stated that ALL conservatives are racist and homophobic.  I have repeatedly requested that this generalization be stopped.  If I were to make the statement that most homosexuals are pedophiles I would be instantly censured.  What is the difference?  Both statements are wrong.  Both statements are hurtful.

Offline MoltenStorm

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Re: Are there any conservatives here?
« Reply #53 on: August 20, 2007, 10:10:03 PM »
Quote
p.s. after reading the "joke" you posted the other day Molten you are in no position to discuss racism or reverse racism with anyone.

You will notice, sir, that I apologized for that remark as I did not mean it to be taken offensively. That is the only dignity I will give your comment, sir.
"Love is always patient and kind. It is never jealous. Love is never boastful nor conceited. It is never rude or selfish. It does not take offense and is not resentful. Love takes no pleasure in other people's sins, but delights in the truth. It is always ready to excuse, to trust, to hope, and to endure whatever comes." - 1 Corinthians 13:4-7, adaptation in A Walk To Remember

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Offline PeteNYNJ

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Re: Are there any conservatives here?
« Reply #54 on: August 20, 2007, 10:17:24 PM »
Settle down girls.....


I agree with Andy, this has the ability to start a war (ha ha, it already did)


What is that quote "you can judge a society by how it treats its poor and animals" or something like that.  I agree with that...call it what you want.

Pete

Offline Bucko

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Re: Are there any conservatives here?
« Reply #55 on: August 21, 2007, 11:07:54 PM »
I also heard a saying once that made a lot of sense. "Scratch a Republican, and you'll find a Conservative. Scratch a Conservative, and you'll find a Racist." I have yet to see that statement falsified in my personal experience. I'm not saying it's completely true. I'm just saying I haven't seen it disproven.

This has been my experience as well. Both of my parents are (still) profoundly conservative on both social and fiscal issues. They were both unashamed racists until well into the 1970s, when they learned to disguise their hate in an attempt to better their social positions. And without a doubt, the biggest homophobe I ever met growing up was my mother.

Of my grandparents, each side was a mix of conservative and progressive. My father's father and my mother's mother were both extreme, John Birch-type conservatives, much to the embarrassment of their spouses. The first time I'd ever heard the "n" word was from my paternal grandfather, and my maternal grandmother was violently anti-feminist (odd, considering she was a high-living flapper in the 20s) and a staunch anti-unionist (odder, as her husband owed everything to his union). My maternal grandfather (the union man) was old-school, but very much a democrat. My paternal grandmother was a pure Kennedy-style New Dealer/60s liberal and wouldn't tolerate racist attitudes voiced in her presence (by anyone except her husband, who was a bitter old drunk anyway).

My dad's second wife is the very picture of conservative morality and Republican virtue. They both attend a low-service Episcopalian church in Palm Beach and claim to be very devout. But a meaner old bitch never walked the planet, for many reasons. My sister was barred from visiting them for many years because her African-American partner was told she was unwelcome in very direct and explicit language.

With such role models as these, is it any wonder my perception of conservatives as unabashed racists comes from such an instinctual place?

One more anecdote:
In my early 20s, i worked for a menswear chain in a store in downtown Boston, on Washington Street across from Filene's Basement. Anyone who has ever been there will know immediately that the majority of the shoppers are people of color. It is at the intersection of most of the major subway lines but there is virtually no parking in the area. The general manager was an odious man who referred to both me and the assistant manager as such things as "bleeding-heart liberals", "tree-hugging commies" (really) or cocksuckers, when he was in a playful mood. He made it very clear to the manager that under no circumstances is he ever to hire a black man, although black women could be cashiers provided they were "pretty". He got into an altercation with an asian truck driver once, calling him "Johnny Egg-Roll" and was nearly killed in the fracas.

I'll grant that stereotypes are not rules, and that just because one happens to believe in smaller government doesn't necessarily mean he believes in white supremacy, any more than anyone else.

But American society is racist to its core. It is extraordinarily difficult to maintain a color-blind approach to life here, as one is so generally in the smallest of minorities in attempting to do so.

Brent
(Who is an extreme lefty Anarchist)
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Offline JamieD

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Re: Are there any conservatives here?
« Reply #56 on: August 22, 2007, 03:08:03 AM »
But isn't dating exclusively from one race group being... er... racist? It was last time I looked... ::)



No, I would date people of other races if I found them to be attractive. I don't though. Its not a choice. Am I a  sexist because I don't sleep with or date women?  ::)
« Last Edit: August 22, 2007, 03:13:00 AM by JamieD »

Offline JamieD

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Re: Are there any conservatives here?
« Reply #57 on: August 22, 2007, 03:11:01 AM »
My black wife is going to be really mad when she finds out I'm a racist.
 I take personal offense to such statements and will request one more time you and everyone else in this forum stop making them.

LOL @ Grinch.

My black boyfriend will be even more pissed off when he finds out that I am both racist AND homophobic as well.  :P Everytime I am at my local KKK rally I ask myself "What would my friends here at the KKK think if they knew I was sleeping with another man who was black?" I'd probably go down faster then a black jewish handicapped lesbian.

Offline JamieD

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Re: Are there any conservatives here?
« Reply #58 on: August 22, 2007, 03:12:20 AM »
I find it funny that the leftwing nutjob preach tolerance and understand and open mindness, but only when it's something they believe in and support.

Offline JamieD

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Re: Are there any conservatives here?
« Reply #59 on: August 22, 2007, 03:16:01 AM »
Andy,
In other threads it has been stated that ALL conservatives are racist and homophobic.  I have repeatedly requested that this generalization be stopped.  If I were to make the statement that most homosexuals are pedophiles I would be instantly censured.  What is the difference?  Both statements are wrong.  Both statements are hurtful.



These are the people who preach "tolerance", "open mindedness" and "acceptance".... the fine print says, though "Only when you agree with us".

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: Are there any conservatives here?
« Reply #60 on: August 22, 2007, 03:48:54 AM »
I find it funny that the leftwing nutjob preach tolerance and understand and open mindness, but only when it's something they believe in and support.

Well Jamie, you might want to be careful slinging words like "nutjob" around.

MtD
(Who knows that people who live in glasshouses should fuck in the basement)

Offline JamieD

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Re: Are there any conservatives here?
« Reply #61 on: August 22, 2007, 03:53:26 AM »
I find it funny that the leftwing nutjob preach tolerance and understand and open mindness, but only when it's something they believe in and support.

Well Jamie, you might want to be careful slinging words like "nutjob" around.

MtD
(Who knows that people who live in glasshouses should fuck in the basement)

Well, with statements like "scratch a republican find a conservative, scratch a conservative find racist" being thrown around by the majority of people here I am not too concerned with what people "think". Anyone (right or left) who makes sweeping statements like that about a large segment of the population is a nutjob.... with a capitol "N".

Offline JamieD

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Re: Are there any conservatives here?
« Reply #62 on: August 22, 2007, 05:49:17 AM »
LOL @ Grinch.

My black boyfriend will be even more pissed off when he finds out that I am both racist AND homophobic as well.  :P Everytime I am at my local KKK rally I ask myself "What would my friends here at the KKK think if they knew I was sleeping with another man who was black?" I'd probably go down faster then a black jewish handicapped lesbian.

ETA: Wait until my Puerto Rican family finds out I am racist. Oh GOD, I didn't even think of them. My brother, my sister, my nephew, my aunt, my father, my grandmum.... all of them. Fucking spics. I wonder if I dye my hair blonde again if I could pass as white? What do you think?  ???


Well, I'm off to go spray paint "wetback" on my sister's car, and "fag" on my boyfriends. Maybe I'll burn a cross on his lawn too. Kisses. XOXO. Jamie
« Last Edit: August 22, 2007, 05:55:05 AM by JamieD »

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: Are there any conservatives here?
« Reply #63 on: August 22, 2007, 06:09:22 AM »
Well Jamie, since you're runnin' with the Right, why don't you ask your conservative buddy Grinch what he thinks of the jack off vid in your Forums profile?

Grinchie once famously complained about Bucko having an avatar which showed the merest glimpse of pubes.

MtD

Offline JamieD

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Re: Are there any conservatives here?
« Reply #64 on: August 22, 2007, 06:12:59 AM »
ask him whether or not I would pass as white if I had blonde hair?

Offline Cliff

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Re: Are there any conservatives here?
« Reply #65 on: August 22, 2007, 07:01:31 AM »
Just because you date or are married to a black person doesn't mean you can't hold racist tendencies.  Using that same flawed logic, then straight men can't be sexist because they all date and/or marry women.  A guy can still think women as a whole are a weaker sex and yet marry and/or have sex with them.

Saying you can't be racist because you date blacks is almost as bad as saying you can't be because some on your best friends are black.  It's a lazy response used while debating.

Offline JamieD

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Re: Are there any conservatives here?
« Reply #66 on: August 22, 2007, 07:09:15 AM »
I also used the argument that I AM A MINORITY MYSELF!!!! Try that one on for size, homegirl.

I spent the every year of my elementary school, middle school, and college (high school) being called a "spic" day in and day out. Everyday for 13 grades. I happened to be one of two latino families in my town. The rest were all white as rice. OMG. I said white as rice, now am I racist against whites? Well.... I am also half white. I had a British mum and a Puerto Rican father.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2007, 07:15:03 AM by JamieD »

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: Are there any conservatives here?
« Reply #67 on: August 22, 2007, 07:12:02 AM »
Try that one on for size, homegirl.

Jamie, I really don't think you should speak to Cliff like that. He's a long standing and well liked member and is entitled to more respect than you've just shown him.

MtD

Offline JamieD

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Re: Are there any conservatives here?
« Reply #68 on: August 22, 2007, 07:16:00 AM »
Try that one on for size, homegirl.

Jamie, I really don't think you should speak to Cliff like that. He's a long standing and well liked member and is entitled to more respect than you've just shown him.

MtD

As the great Paris Hilton once said: I'm over it.

Offline jack

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Re: Are there any conservatives here?
« Reply #69 on: August 22, 2007, 07:19:36 AM »
Face it Jamie,you are a freaking racist.  It doesnt matter how you treat people, it only matters what you think or how you feel.
The left and race pimps will always play the race card,its what they do, and they have made the whole thing a joke.
If you see a black person walking down the street,and the thought enters your mind,"there is a black person" you are a racist. If you oppose anything a black person or minority does you are racist.
If I think Shiela Lee Jackson is a moronic windbag, I am a racist. If I oppose Jesse Jacksons blackmail of US corps and the wealth he has accumalated from this profession, I am a racist.
You only date black women to disguise your racism,you just didnt know it.
You see racism must exist because it empowers many and with out it what would the left and people like Jackson do for a living?
No matter how hard we try, no matter how often we try to be kind and have empathy for minorities,racism will always exist,too many people depend on it.

Offline JamieD

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Re: Are there any conservatives here?
« Reply #70 on: August 22, 2007, 07:23:44 AM »
women

 :D  It's men, dear.  ;) I am a racist bi-racial faggot conservative. The KKK would welcome me with open arms.

BTW- Your response pissed me off at first until I realised what you were saying.  :D

Offline David_CA

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Re: Are there any conservatives here?
« Reply #71 on: August 22, 2007, 08:00:05 AM »
Jamie,

You now have two new (conservative) buds on the forums.  It's too bad they're both white and straight.  They're both a bit more 'insightful', too.

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Offline JamieD

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Re: Are there any conservatives here?
« Reply #72 on: August 22, 2007, 08:11:17 AM »
Oh yeah, that is a drag since obviously because I date only men of colour that must mean I want nothing to do with anyone else.

Have you by chance ever thought this thought to yourself before: my hat doesn't fit because my wrist is swollen?

Offline Dachshund

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Re: Are there any conservatives here?
« Reply #73 on: August 22, 2007, 08:19:59 AM »
Jamie,

You now have two new (conservative) buds on the forums.  It's too bad they're both white and straight.  They're both a bit more 'insightful', too.



straight?

Offline MoltenStorm

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Re: Are there any conservatives here?
« Reply #74 on: August 22, 2007, 08:35:59 AM »
Quote
I am a racist bi-racial faggot conservative. The KKK would welcome me with open arms.

LOL. Sadly, they wouldn't. The KKK only likes men who are white, protestant, and heterosexual.
"Love is always patient and kind. It is never jealous. Love is never boastful nor conceited. It is never rude or selfish. It does not take offense and is not resentful. Love takes no pleasure in other people's sins, but delights in the truth. It is always ready to excuse, to trust, to hope, and to endure whatever comes." - 1 Corinthians 13:4-7, adaptation in A Walk To Remember

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Offline David_CA

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Re: Are there any conservatives here?
« Reply #75 on: August 22, 2007, 08:36:54 AM »
Have you by chance ever thought this thought to yourself before: my hat doesn't fit because my wrist is swollen?

No, but I have thought your posts odd based on previous threads you've started.
Black Friday 03-03-2006
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Offline JamieD

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Re: Are there any conservatives here?
« Reply #76 on: August 22, 2007, 08:43:26 AM »
LOL. Sadly, they wouldn't. The KKK only likes men who are white, protestant, and heterosexual.

You're joking, right? You didn't see the sarcasm in that post?

Offline MoltenStorm

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Re: Are there any conservatives here?
« Reply #77 on: August 22, 2007, 08:44:54 AM »
Quote
Cliff stated:

I think you'll find that using cracker is not that acceptable.  I wouldn't (and shouldn't) go to my workplace and throw around that word.  In fact, I can't think of too many places where it would be acceptable to use that word.  Both words are offensive, but not necessarily racism.  Two different concepts.

I would ask you to clarify because that sounds like you're endorsing the idea that only slighting a minority is racism. Racism is racism regardless of which race the victim belongs to. Racism is hatred or intolerance of another race or other races. I don't see where minorities have dibs on being the only ones able to cry "racism." "Cracker" is a racist term. It was used by African-Americans, during the time of slavery and today, as a derogatory term in reference to Caucasians. Explain to me how that's not racism?
« Last Edit: August 22, 2007, 08:47:20 AM by MoltenStorm »
"Love is always patient and kind. It is never jealous. Love is never boastful nor conceited. It is never rude or selfish. It does not take offense and is not resentful. Love takes no pleasure in other people's sins, but delights in the truth. It is always ready to excuse, to trust, to hope, and to endure whatever comes." - 1 Corinthians 13:4-7, adaptation in A Walk To Remember

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Offline MoltenStorm

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Re: Are there any conservatives here?
« Reply #78 on: August 22, 2007, 08:45:48 AM »
You're joking, right? You didn't see the sarcasm in that post?

Yes, darling Jamie. See the "LOL" at the beginning of the post?
"Love is always patient and kind. It is never jealous. Love is never boastful nor conceited. It is never rude or selfish. It does not take offense and is not resentful. Love takes no pleasure in other people's sins, but delights in the truth. It is always ready to excuse, to trust, to hope, and to endure whatever comes." - 1 Corinthians 13:4-7, adaptation in A Walk To Remember

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Offline Dachshund

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Re: Are there any conservatives here?
« Reply #79 on: August 22, 2007, 08:59:44 AM »
It was used by African-Americans, during the time of slavery and today, as a derogatory term in reference to Caucasians. Explain to me how that's not racism?


Your kidding right? Accusing slaves of racism is beyond ignorant. It's kind of hard to be labled a racist when someone owns you. When you are considered an animal to be bought and sold at will. The term cracker was used by slaves to describe owners and the crack of the whip against their backs. How dare those racist, darkies disparage the good name of their owners. Good grief this thread is ridiculous.

Offline JamieD

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Re: Are there any conservatives here?
« Reply #80 on: August 22, 2007, 09:06:04 AM »
Good grief this thread is ridiculous.

Weren't you one of those peddling the idea that conservatives were both racist and homophobic?

Offline David_CA

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Re: Are there any conservatives here?
« Reply #81 on: August 22, 2007, 09:09:03 AM »
..."Cracker" is a racist term. It was used by African-Americans, during the time of slavery and today, as a derogatory term in reference to Caucasians. ...

As an aside, I first heard the term 'cracker' when I was in third grade.  We had just moved from Louisiana to Raleigh, NC during the summer of '74, and schools in Raleigh were dealing with issues of bussing, integration, etc.  Anyway, this girl called me 'white cracker' out of the blue.  In first and second grades (in LA), I didn't know what discrimination, racism, or prejudice was, so I was unfamiliar with racial slur terms.  I thought it sounded kinda funny to me, so I called her one of my favorite snacks, a chocolate covered graham cracker.  She didn't think my answer was so funny and proceded to punch me in the stomach.  When I got home, I asked my mom why she called me a 'white cracker'.  My mom explained that it was what some black people called white people when they didn't like them.  I asked "but why doesn't she like me?" (I was always a 'why' kind of child and haven't outgrown it.)  She just said "honey, she just doesn't.  I don't know why."  Of course she knew the reason, but even now I often wonder "but why don't they/he/she like me" when it comes to being gay or white or male, even.  Brenda and I never spoke much after that, but her twin sister, Linda, and I became best friends the rest of the time I went to that school. 

David
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You must be the change you want to see in the world.  Mahatma Gandhi

Offline Dachshund

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Re: Are there any conservatives here?
« Reply #82 on: August 22, 2007, 09:16:17 AM »
Weren't you one of those peddling the idea that conservatives were both racist and homophobic?

No sweetheart I wasn't peddling anything, I was responding to Grinch. Feel free to read my response, but as for this thread and your burning desire for a troll fest I bid you adieu.

Offline Iggy

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Re: Are there any conservatives here?
« Reply #83 on: August 22, 2007, 09:28:53 AM »
Jaime - to be conscientious about money does not equate conservative.

I know plenty of liberals who'll squeeze a wooden nickel until the Buffalo poops.

Offline thunter34

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Re: Are there any conservatives here?
« Reply #84 on: August 22, 2007, 09:34:03 AM »
I know plenty of liberals who'll squeeze a wooden nickel until the Buffalo poops.

Many of us with AIDS absolutely have to.   :-\
AIDS isn't for sissies.

Offline JamieD

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Re: Are there any conservatives here?
« Reply #85 on: August 22, 2007, 09:36:22 AM »
Jaime - to be conscientious about money does not equate conservative.

I am a lot more then conscientious of money. I am against most social welfare programmes. I think a large portion (but not ALL for you nitpickers) of taxes are completely unneccesary (ie, the death tax aka what the commies call the estate tax).

Offline Iggy

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Re: Are there any conservatives here?
« Reply #86 on: August 22, 2007, 09:37:35 AM »
Are you against ADAP?


Offline Cliff

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Re: Are there any conservatives here?
« Reply #87 on: August 22, 2007, 09:37:55 AM »
I would ask you to clarify because that sounds like you're endorsing the idea that only slighting a minority is racism. Racism is racism regardless of which race the victim belongs to. Racism is hatred or intolerance of another race or other races. I don't see where minorities have dibs on being the only ones able to cry "racism." "Cracker" is a racist term. It was used by African-Americans, during the time of slavery and today, as a derogatory term in reference to Caucasians. Explain to me how that's not racism?
Putting your odd example of using slavery as an example of reverse racism against Caucasians aside, I think you misread or didn't understand the point (nor context) of my comment.  I never stated racism was only applicable to one group.  

My point was addressing a comment by Grinch and Jaime that they couldn't be racist because they dated blacks.  I don't know them, so I can't comment as to whether or not they are racist.  I'll take their word for it that they are not.  But I can comment on the fact that I think it's intellectually lazy to argue that one can't be racist because they date and/or are friends with blacks.

Offline JamieD

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Re: Are there any conservatives here?
« Reply #88 on: August 22, 2007, 09:41:12 AM »
But I can comment on the fact that I think it's intellectually lazy to argue that one can't be racist because they date and/or are friends with blacks.

.... or that you can't be racist if you are infact a minority yourself.

Offline JamieD

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Re: Are there any conservatives here?
« Reply #89 on: August 22, 2007, 09:44:14 AM »
Are you against ADAP?



I don't know what that is. Is that some tax on breathing that the democrats are trying to get put into place? Or is it a new tax on petrol?

Offline thunter34

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Re: Are there any conservatives here?
« Reply #90 on: August 22, 2007, 09:46:06 AM »
Maybe I'm reading too much into this, but Jamie your posts have a definite flamebait feel to them.

You seem like you're deliberately trying to provoke anger from people on this thread.

I'm sure it's just me.


PS:  It speaks volumes that you are completely ignorant of what ADAP is.  "AIDS Drug Assistance Program"...helping provide life saving medicine for those who can't afford it.

But never you mind.  It's just another wasteful liberal social program.
AIDS isn't for sissies.

Offline Ann

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Re: Are there any conservatives here?
« Reply #91 on: August 22, 2007, 09:47:40 AM »
Everyone -

If the sarcasm isn't dropped as a weapon in this discussion, I'm going to shut this thread down. Sarcasm may have its place, but it is not a clever debating tactic when discussing serious issues.

And yes, this is a warning of sorts. Keep to the issues themselves and stop attacking each other.

Ann
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"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline JamieD

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Re: Are there any conservatives here?
« Reply #92 on: August 22, 2007, 09:50:26 AM »

PS:  It speaks volumes that you are completely ignorant of what ADAP is.  "AIDS Drug Assistance Program"...helping provide life saving medicine for those who can't afford it.

But never you mind.  It's just another wasteful liberal social program.

Don't be an ass. It's unnecessary. Painting me as a heartless sociopath isn't going to make your argument right. I have no problem whatsoever with giving assistance to those people who really need it. I stated that earlier. And I am sure 99% of conservatives have no problem giving assistance to people who are in real need of it. Our definition of "need" is probably very different though.

And why would it "speak volumes" that I don't know what ADAP is? I have been positive for two months, and I pay for my own medications with my own money even though I am in college and only work part time. Boo-fucking-hoo.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2007, 09:54:57 AM by JamieD »

Offline Ann

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Re: Are there any conservatives here?
« Reply #93 on: August 22, 2007, 09:57:28 AM »
Jamie,

Knock it off, now. I agree that you are walking a very fine line flame-bait wise, especially after I just issued a general warning. Consider yourself officially warned.

Ann
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"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline JamieD

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Re: Are there any conservatives here?
« Reply #94 on: August 22, 2007, 10:00:33 AM »
I didn't see your response as I was writing mine when you posted that. I didn't see it when I edited it either.

Offline Ann

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Re: Are there any conservatives here?
« Reply #95 on: August 22, 2007, 10:05:54 AM »
I didn't see your response as I was writing mine when you posted that. I didn't see it when I edited it either.

Now how can that be when the default setting is to warn when someone has posted while you were writing? And I happen to know that you haven't changed the default by ticking the box that says DON'T warn in your profile.

Your official warning stands.

Ann
Condoms are a girl's best friend

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"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline Iggy

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Re: Are there any conservatives here?
« Reply #96 on: August 22, 2007, 10:07:46 AM »
And why would it "speak volumes" that I don't know what ADAP is? I have been positive for two months, and I pay for my own medications with my own money even though I am in college and only work part time.

Jaime - it speaks volumes when you state that you are against most social welfare programs and don't know one of the most prominent ones in the U.S.

I think you should avoid statements of saying you are against things until you actually know what those things entail.  This is not sacrasm and this is not an attack - simply an observation.

Offline JamieD

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Re: Are there any conservatives here?
« Reply #97 on: August 22, 2007, 10:09:37 AM »
I did see the warning. I see one right now because someone posted something when I clicked the reply button. That doesn't mean I am paying any attention to it. Did I mention not seeing the warning of another reply? I don't believe so.

Offline BT65

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Re: Are there any conservatives here?
« Reply #98 on: August 22, 2007, 10:11:06 AM »
I tend to be more democratic-liberal.  I don't know if I would ever vote Republican even if it was Mickey Mouse running for the Democrats. 
I've never killed anyone, but I frequently get satisfaction reading the obituary notices.-Clarence Darrow

Offline Ann

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Re: Are there any conservatives here?
« Reply #99 on: August 22, 2007, 10:11:57 AM »
I did see the warning. I see one right now because someone posted something when I clicked the reply button. That doesn't mean I am paying any attention to it. Did I mention not seeing the warning of another reply? I don't believe so.

Jamie,

Then let this be a lesson. When someone has posted while you were writing, read what was posted.

Your official warning STILL stands.

Ann
Condoms are a girl's best friend

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"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline JamieD

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Re: Are there any conservatives here?
« Reply #100 on: August 22, 2007, 10:12:18 AM »
Jaime - it speaks volumes when you state that you are against most social welfare programs and don't know one of the most prominent ones in the U.S.

I think you should avoid statements of saying you are against things until you actually know what those things entail.  This is not sacrasm and this is not an attack - simply an observation.


I never said I was for or against ADAP, did I? No, I sure didn't. I try my best not to formulate an opinion until I get the facts. Stop twisting my what I am saying, that is an attack and an observation. I stated something I was against because I know about it. Did you notice I didn't give a list of what I am for or against?

I am not for or against something until I am informed about it. Informed on both sides of the issue.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2007, 10:16:30 AM by JamieD »

Offline JamieD

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Re: Are there any conservatives here?
« Reply #101 on: August 22, 2007, 10:15:16 AM »
Jamie,

Then let this be a lesson. When someone has posted while you were writing, read what was posted.

Your official warning STILL stands.

Ann


I wasn't trying to get the warning taken away, nor am I interested in doing so. I was simply stating that I didn't see your reply and then you decided to see if maybe you'd caught me in a lie or something and you got all cocky with yourself and I told you that I did infact see the "warning" that someone had posted a reply when I was writing, but I always ignore those warnings and I will continue doing it unless they go away.

Offline Iggy

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Re: Are there any conservatives here?
« Reply #102 on: August 22, 2007, 10:18:15 AM »
Jaime -

You said you were against most social welfare progrmas and I asked if you were against ADAP.

You said you didn't know what that was and I suggested that you avoid statements saying you were against things until you actually learn what those things are.

Where am I twisting your words?


Modified:  I wanted to include the quote for the context of what I and you are saying

Quote
I am a lot more then conscientious of money. I am against most social welfare programmes. I think a large portion (but not ALL for you nitpickers) of taxes are completely unneccesary (ie, the death tax aka what the commies call the estate tax).
« Last Edit: August 22, 2007, 10:20:18 AM by Iggy »

Offline Ann

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Re: Are there any conservatives here?
« Reply #103 on: August 22, 2007, 10:19:53 AM »
I give up. I'm locking this thread.

Jamie, if this situation ever arises again where you ignore a warning that was posted while you were writing, you'll be given a time out, simple as that.

I'm not going to time you out just yet, only because you so obviously need the support and information you get here. But I'm warning you, tone down the sarcastic remarks or you will be timed out. Your official warning will stand until you can show you can discuss a topic without resorting to sarcastic and catty remarks.

Oh, and don't bother starting a new thread on the subject - it will also be locked.

Ann
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

 


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