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Author Topic: Re: poppers and ks - the connection?  (Read 7317 times)

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Offline Smoothstone

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  • Posts: 96
Re: poppers and ks - the connection?
« on: August 15, 2007, 04:33:47 PM »

Dr. Michael Cannon,Ph.D.                                              August 15,2007
CDC HHV-8/MSM Epidemiology Study

Subject: HHV-8 and poppers


Dear Dr. Cannon:

We request your HHV-8 team to consider,possibly reconsider in light of emerging research results, and somehow assess popper use in your HHV-8 MSM cohort(s).Even a one time pilot, possibly subset assessment of popper use by MSM may be instructive.

Prevalence of popper use by gay men is significantly high to warrant attention. Research has progressed in understanding HHV-8 infection but researchers have been inconsistent in examining popper use. The HHV-8/MSM mystery remains unsolved.  Seems rational to examine all the potential cofactors.  That popper use is ignored by some HHV-8/MSM researchers is confusing and problematic for those of us who are gay,who have partners with HHV-8, who are popper users, or are working with gay men. The exclusion of looking at popper use seems insensitive to the information needs of gay men.

Significant associations between popper use and HHV-8 seropositivity have been demonstrated by:
Pauk, 2000;
Diamond, 2001;
Martin 2001...unpublished but presented at Intl KS workshop in Santa Cruz...I was in his study and present at the presentation;
Casper 2002;
Casper 2006 EXPLORE baseline HHV-8 ancillary study;
Mbullaiteye 2006 AIDS Cancer Cohort Study.   

Is there an association between popper use and HHV-8 seropositivity?
Does popper use stimulate HHV-8 shedding in saliva?
Does popper use suppress immune function which may then allow HHV-8 shedding? ...Dax et al, 1991, in the human study demonstrated that natural killer cell function was suppressed immediately after just 3 inhalations...took 4 days to recover to baseline...and then stayed stimulated for over 10 days.
There are numerous questions about an association between popper use and HHV-8 in MSM. The HHV-8/MSM mystery continues.

While some cohorts may not be ideal for assessing the relationship between HHV-8 and popper use, it remains important to the gay male community to explore this prevalent drug when possible, limitations of any particular study acknowledged. 

Is it possible that MSM popper users are a significantly high risk group for HHV-8 infection? If this turns out to be the case, interventions can be developed to modify/reduce popper use. Assessing popper use will help us answer this question.

Thanks for your consideration. Your research on HHV-8 and MSM is appreciated.
Sincerely,

Hank Wilson
Committee to Monitor Poppers

 


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Offline thunter34

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  • Posts: 7,324
  • His name is Carl.
Re: poppers and ks - the connection?
« Reply #1 on: August 15, 2007, 04:38:27 PM »
If I join the Committee to Monitor Poppers, do I get any free samples??


AIDS isn't for sissies.

Offline thunter34

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  • Posts: 7,324
  • His name is Carl.
Re: poppers and ks - the connection?
« Reply #2 on: August 15, 2007, 04:56:23 PM »
Dr. Michael Cannon,Ph.D.                                              August 15,2007
CDC HHV-8/MSM Epidemiology Study

Subject: HHV-8 and poppers


Dear Dr. Cannon:

We request your HHV-8 team to consider,possibly reconsider in light of emerging research results, and somehow assess popper use in your HHV-8 MSM cohort(s).Even a one time pilot, possibly subset assessment of popper use by MSM may be instructive.

Prevalence of popper use by gay men is significantly high to warrant attention. Research has progressed in understanding HHV-8 infection but researchers have been inconsistent in examining popper use. The HHV-8/MSM mystery remains unsolved.  Seems rational to examine all the potential cofactors.  That popper use is ignored by some HHV-8/MSM researchers is confusing and problematic for those of us who are gay,who have partners with HHV-8, who are popper users, or are working with gay men. The exclusion of looking at popper use seems insensitive to the information needs of gay men.

Significant associations between popper use and HHV-8 seropositivity have been demonstrated by:
Pauk, 2000;
Diamond, 2001;
Martin 2001...unpublished but presented at Intl KS workshop in Santa Cruz...I was in his study and present at the presentation;
Casper 2002;
Casper 2006 EXPLORE baseline HHV-8 ancillary study;
Mbullaiteye 2006 AIDS Cancer Cohort Study.   

Is there an association between popper use and HHV-8 seropositivity?
Does popper use stimulate HHV-8 shedding in saliva?
Does popper use suppress immune function which may then allow HHV-8 shedding? ...Dax et al, 1991, in the human study demonstrated that natural killer cell function was suppressed immediately after just 3 inhalations...took 4 days to recover to baseline...and then stayed stimulated for over 10 days.
There are numerous questions about an association between popper use and HHV-8 in MSM. The HHV-8/MSM mystery continues.

While some cohorts may not be ideal for assessing the relationship between HHV-8 and popper use, it remains important to the gay male community to explore this prevalent drug when possible, limitations of any particular study acknowledged. 

Is it possible that MSM popper users are a significantly high risk group for HHV-8 infection? If this turns out to be the case, interventions can be developed to modify/reduce popper use. Assessing popper use will help us answer this question.

Thanks for your consideration. Your research on HHV-8 and MSM is appreciated.
Sincerely,

Hank Wilson
Committee to Monitor Poppers

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com.



I just looked up "Hank Wilson" and "anti-popper research".


An affiliate of Peter Duesberg, I see.  And certain denialist websites. 


« Last Edit: August 15, 2007, 05:04:06 PM by thunter34 »
AIDS isn't for sissies.

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: poppers and ks - the connection?
« Reply #3 on: August 15, 2007, 05:22:50 PM »
Absolutely Youth Pastor Tim. Williams is a rank denialist.

Reported.

MtD

Offline thunter34

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  • Posts: 7,324
  • His name is Carl.
Re: poppers and ks - the connection?
« Reply #4 on: August 15, 2007, 05:23:51 PM »
As did I.
AIDS isn't for sissies.

Offline Tim Horn

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  • Posts: 799
Re: poppers and ks - the connection?
« Reply #5 on: August 15, 2007, 07:23:15 PM »
I'm actually going to keep this ball in play. From what I know about Hank Wilson, he's not a denialist -- he has a long history of work in the S.F. area with groups like Mobilization Against AIDS, ACT UP Golden Gate (not its denialist counterpart ACT UP San Francisco), the AIDS Political Action Network, and actually helped set up the Tenderloin AIDS Resource Center.

I've read some of Mr. Wilson's papers and articles over the years -- I also recall speaking with him, briefly, at a meeting regarding poppers and AIDS back in 1994 -- and think he views amyl/butyl nitrates as a cofactor in some aspects of AIDS. While I don't personally agree with this theory, for a variety of reasons, I don't think the controversy should automatically be chalked up as denialism -- but I'll let Mr. Wilson defend himself in this regard.

Tim Horn   

Edited to add: Smoothstone, I do recommend taking some time to introduce yourself to the Forums so that our Forums veterans may learn a bit more about you and your reason for participating in this online support network.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2007, 07:44:16 PM by Tim Horn »

Offline milker

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Re: poppers and ks - the connection?
« Reply #6 on: August 15, 2007, 07:35:43 PM »
I found this: http://www.posh-uk.org.uk/gmh/data.html

Look at chapter 18. It looks that Hank Wilson is trying to get this study running.

Milker.
mid-dec: stupid ass
mid-jan: seroconversion
mid-feb: poz
mar 07: cd4 432 (35%) vl 54000
may 07: cd4 399 (28%) vl 27760
jul 07: cd4 403 (26%) vl 99241
oct 07: cd4 353 (24%) vl 29993
jan 08: cd4 332 (26%) vl 33308
mar 08: cd4 392 (23%) vl 75548
jun 08: cd4 325 (27%) vl 45880
oct 08: cd4 197 (20%) vl 154000 <== aids diagnosis
nov 2 08 start Atripla
nov 30 08: cd4 478 (23%) vl 1880 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
feb 19 09: cd4 398 (24%) vl 430 getting there!
apr 23 09: cd4 604 (29%) vl 50 woohoo :D :D
jul 30 09: cd4 512 (29%) vl undetectable :D :D
may 27 10: cd4 655 (32%) vl undetectable :D :D

Now accepting applications from blowjob ninjas™

Offline thunter34

  • Member
  • Posts: 7,324
  • His name is Carl.
Re: poppers and ks - the connection?
« Reply #7 on: August 15, 2007, 07:41:08 PM »
well, i'm sorry...but if they start to come down on poppers, this mo is going to go on a mad buying spree.


shoulda done that before they yanked all the ephedra.   >:(
« Last Edit: August 15, 2007, 07:45:25 PM by thunter34 »
AIDS isn't for sissies.

Offline thunter34

  • Member
  • Posts: 7,324
  • His name is Carl.
Re: poppers and ks - the connection?
« Reply #8 on: August 15, 2007, 07:59:59 PM »
I found this: http://www.posh-uk.org.uk/gmh/data.html

Look at chapter 18. It looks that Hank Wilson is trying to get this study running.

Milker.


that link quotes a lot of duesberg stuff also.  reads kinda fishy.  anyone know the lowdown on this organization?  are they reputable?
AIDS isn't for sissies.

Offline milker

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Re: poppers and ks - the connection?
« Reply #9 on: August 15, 2007, 08:02:29 PM »
Positively Healthy UK?

Their entry page says:     

HIV-1 is the sole, necessary and sufficient cause of AIDS in Gay Men. This has been confirmed by clinicians worldwide. The progression to AIDS can be exacerbated by co-factors such as STIs and recreational drugs, but without HIV there is no AIDS.


and the site looks very genuine.

Milker.
mid-dec: stupid ass
mid-jan: seroconversion
mid-feb: poz
mar 07: cd4 432 (35%) vl 54000
may 07: cd4 399 (28%) vl 27760
jul 07: cd4 403 (26%) vl 99241
oct 07: cd4 353 (24%) vl 29993
jan 08: cd4 332 (26%) vl 33308
mar 08: cd4 392 (23%) vl 75548
jun 08: cd4 325 (27%) vl 45880
oct 08: cd4 197 (20%) vl 154000 <== aids diagnosis
nov 2 08 start Atripla
nov 30 08: cd4 478 (23%) vl 1880 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
feb 19 09: cd4 398 (24%) vl 430 getting there!
apr 23 09: cd4 604 (29%) vl 50 woohoo :D :D
jul 30 09: cd4 512 (29%) vl undetectable :D :D
may 27 10: cd4 655 (32%) vl undetectable :D :D

Now accepting applications from blowjob ninjas™

Offline thunter34

  • Member
  • Posts: 7,324
  • His name is Carl.
Re: poppers and ks - the connection?
« Reply #10 on: August 15, 2007, 08:04:29 PM »
works for me.

than ks


make that:  thanks.
AIDS isn't for sissies.

Offline thunter34

  • Member
  • Posts: 7,324
  • His name is Carl.
Re: poppers and ks - the connection?
« Reply #11 on: August 15, 2007, 08:08:57 PM »
site still reads odd to me...


"accompanying all club drug abuse is cocaine"


huh?  not buyin' it.


"barebacking is a sexy name for a very unsexy practice"


again- not buyin'.
AIDS isn't for sissies.

Offline milker

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  • Protected phone sex
Re: poppers and ks - the connection?
« Reply #12 on: August 15, 2007, 08:16:20 PM »
I think they are anti-barebacking activists, and try to approach hiv with a holistic view, but I don't think they're saying anywhere anything that is denialist. They do link to denialist stuff, as references to the denialist subject. But they also link to Poz Magazine. http://www.posh-uk.org.uk/gmh/barebacking.html

Milker.
mid-dec: stupid ass
mid-jan: seroconversion
mid-feb: poz
mar 07: cd4 432 (35%) vl 54000
may 07: cd4 399 (28%) vl 27760
jul 07: cd4 403 (26%) vl 99241
oct 07: cd4 353 (24%) vl 29993
jan 08: cd4 332 (26%) vl 33308
mar 08: cd4 392 (23%) vl 75548
jun 08: cd4 325 (27%) vl 45880
oct 08: cd4 197 (20%) vl 154000 <== aids diagnosis
nov 2 08 start Atripla
nov 30 08: cd4 478 (23%) vl 1880 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
feb 19 09: cd4 398 (24%) vl 430 getting there!
apr 23 09: cd4 604 (29%) vl 50 woohoo :D :D
jul 30 09: cd4 512 (29%) vl undetectable :D :D
may 27 10: cd4 655 (32%) vl undetectable :D :D

Now accepting applications from blowjob ninjas™

Offline thunter34

  • Member
  • Posts: 7,324
  • His name is Carl.
Re: poppers and ks - the connection?
« Reply #13 on: August 15, 2007, 08:19:40 PM »
I'm actually going to keep this ball in play. From what I know about Hank Wilson, he's not a denialist -- he has a long history of work in the S.F. area with groups like Mobilization Against AIDS, ACT UP Golden Gate (not its denialist counterpart ACT UP San Francisco), the AIDS Political Action Network, and actually helped set up the Tenderloin AIDS Resource Center.

Edited to add: Smoothstone, I do recommend taking some time to introduce yourself to the Forums so that our Forums veterans may learn a bit more about you and your reason for participating in this online support network.


Mr.  Horn,

Thanks for stepping in to address this.  I went a-googling and get numerous hits for various Hank Wilson / popper related articles.  There are several HW's- some living, some deceased....some denialist, some lauded activists.  I will appreciate more insight.
AIDS isn't for sissies.

Offline Iggy

  • Member
  • Posts: 2,435
Re: poppers and ks - the connection?
« Reply #14 on: August 15, 2007, 08:23:13 PM »
I think they are anti-barebacking activists, and try to approach hiv with a holistic view

Mother always said Green Tea and condoms is all I ever needed to stay healthy....or was that condoms and teabagging  :-\

Offline milker

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  • Protected phone sex
Re: poppers and ks - the connection?
« Reply #15 on: August 15, 2007, 08:24:22 PM »
Mother always said Green Tea and condoms is all I ever needed to stay healthy....or was that condoms and teabagging  :-\
I was waiting for a comment like this :D
mid-dec: stupid ass
mid-jan: seroconversion
mid-feb: poz
mar 07: cd4 432 (35%) vl 54000
may 07: cd4 399 (28%) vl 27760
jul 07: cd4 403 (26%) vl 99241
oct 07: cd4 353 (24%) vl 29993
jan 08: cd4 332 (26%) vl 33308
mar 08: cd4 392 (23%) vl 75548
jun 08: cd4 325 (27%) vl 45880
oct 08: cd4 197 (20%) vl 154000 <== aids diagnosis
nov 2 08 start Atripla
nov 30 08: cd4 478 (23%) vl 1880 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
feb 19 09: cd4 398 (24%) vl 430 getting there!
apr 23 09: cd4 604 (29%) vl 50 woohoo :D :D
jul 30 09: cd4 512 (29%) vl undetectable :D :D
may 27 10: cd4 655 (32%) vl undetectable :D :D

Now accepting applications from blowjob ninjas™

Offline thunter34

  • Member
  • Posts: 7,324
  • His name is Carl.
Re: poppers and ks - the connection?
« Reply #16 on: August 15, 2007, 08:24:49 PM »
Mother always said Green Tea and condoms is all I ever needed to stay healthy....or was that condoms and teabagging  :-\

of the two, i vote for the latter.
AIDS isn't for sissies.

Offline Smoothstone

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  • Posts: 96
Re: poppers and ks - the connection?
« Reply #17 on: August 15, 2007, 11:01:40 PM »
Thanks for this introduction opportunity...warning... its  long and I am enjoying multiple flashbacks. It is not pornographic.

The letter to Cannon was to prod some assessment of popper use among his MSM cohorts
researching HHV8. If you dont assess, you wont know.

Firstly, Have no fear that poppers will disappear. They are widely available on the internet if/when you can't find a local supply. The Consumer Products Safety Commission does not prioritize enforcement of the federal prohibition on distribution and sales.Understatement. There has been only one prosecution for violating the federal ban since it became effective in 1991. That case in 1997 in San Diego saw the seller get sentenced to 6 months of home detention and a small fine....and footnote...Joseph Miller, owner of Great Lakes Products which produces RUSH, Hardware, RAM, and others...wrote a character reference letter for the defendant. Miller billed himself as owner of a marketing and packaging company...he to disclose to tell the judge what he packaged.   Your favorite brand(s) are only a website away. Miller is an ex member of the Human Rights Campaign board of directors and he donates big bucks to politicians. He hired the just retired,former chief enforcement officer of the Consumer Products Safety Commission to engineer an out of court settlement, negotiated fine of $10,000 in 1994....a pittance when his website boasts of selling 25,000  bottles worldwide....DAILY!

Second, The UK site is a poz site with a cofactor bent....I haven't checked it thoroughly. 

I have no relationship with Duesberg. I go out of my way to not sit next to or near him to minimize the denialist brush detracting from my efforts to educate the community about the hazards of using poppers. The resistance to Duesberg and his focus on poppers has contributed to missing or inadequate education efforts about poppers.

 I focus on educating folks as well as service providers and researchers.I believe in informed choice and assume that there will be disagreement. I try to be accurate and strive to stay up to date on a variety of HIV related issues.We  pioneered harm reduction services for drug users in SF at the Ambassador Hotel which I operated for 18 years in SF Tenderloin.(1978-1996 - 150 room SRO) The first blood draws of IVDU's by UCSF AIDS researchers  were done in my donated office.

 I started researching poppers back in 1981 because my sex buddy always mixed poppers with sex...I used poppers because my buddy was very hot...he was newly out and uptight sexually until he had a hit of poppers...and then he performed like a porn star. He liked poppers for the disinhibition effect...and I liked em cause they made penetration painless and super pleasurable. I noticed the intensified/prolonged orgasm, but always thought that a regular old orgasm was great.   I hit the UCSF medical library the same day as the first news reports of  the mysterious something plaging young gay men. I didn't trust the government. I still don't. Poppers were suspected of causing what was called GRID. From the beginning I approached poppers as a potential cause or cofactor. When HIV was discovered my focus narrowed to cofactor. The same initial focus on KS was that poppers was a cause or a cofactor. With the discovery of HHV8, I shifted to poppers as an immunosuppressive cofactor for HHV8 seropositivity and KS cofactor.
     My status:  PWA, diagnosed with KS in 1987, never took the HIV test because I assumed I was infected based on lots of wild times. Stopped poppers in 81 after that first trip to the library. Tried AZT in 88 but stopped because of intolerable side effects...even at the 100 mg daily dose.  Have had PCP twice '94,'95, full blown tuberculosis in ' 89, dementia in 95-96 first person to get Ziagen..it was in a dementia trial...I mostly recovered, have always been somewhat delusional...,cryptoccocal meningitis in '96, lowest tcells 26 in '96, current 800, highest ever 840 in Jan 07 and currently climbing a new mountain with lung cancer diagnosed in May 07...the latter spotted prior to symptoms because I have to do an annual TB x ray for job clearance. I have never smoked cigarettes but have smoked pot rarely.

Longtime gay activist, founder of Gay Teachers Coalition, Butterfly Brigade..whistle defense distribution and patrol, SF Gay Democratic Club, Gay Youth Suicide Prevention Task Force,AIDS Political Action Network '82 with Bobbi Campbell...first public PWA... Mobilization Against AIDS, ACT UP SF prior to it becoming a denialist spin off, ACT UP Golden Gate. I served on the SF Treatment on Demand Council successfully getting Stonewall Project (crystal harm reduction services for and by gays, founded Tenderloin AIDS Network, Tenderloin AIDS Resource Center,  I helped organize the first AIDS Candlelight March in SF in 1983....and called both Larry Kramer and Paul Popham of GMHC to get NY to do a Candlelight on the same date...we mailed posters to NY.

 Founded the Committee to Monitor Poppers in 1981...in '82 teamed with Bay Area Physicians for Human Rights - lgbt docs - to get the SF Board of Supervisors to pass a point of sale warning law for wherever poppers were sold... We opted for an education strategy and rejected a ban.Successfully pushed California to pass a similar point of sale warning law in 1986. I initially collaborated with Dr. Tom Smith, gay doc at SFGH specializing in substance use issues. He was responsible for the first of 3 education pamphlets on poppers. Tom died of AIDS in 1987. Dr. Richard Hamilton, another gay doc, raised an initial alarm about poppers in San Francisco in 1977. He died of AIDS in the mid 80s. I collaborated with the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence to produce the DanceSafe popper information card. I have served two terms on the SF HIV Prevention Planning Council and two terms on UCSF Center for AIDS Prevention Community Advisory Board. I pridefully remember serving on the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation National TB Task Force and successfully pushed for Housing Works to get a $1,000,000 grant. I was a threefer...hiv+, TB, gay and docs reversed their funding decision based on my pittbulling for Housing Works.

I started working with Dr. Harry Haverkos when he was working at CDC. James Curran, head of CDC refused to sign off on Dr. Haverkos's paper showing that development of KS was associated with poppers. Haverkos gave that research paper to Dr. Don Abrams, gay doc at SFGH, who gave me the paper. I got it published on the front page of Bay Area Reporter...a year before it was published in a medical journal..The BAR publication finessed Curran to approve submission for publication.  Haverkos left CDC for NIDA, then to the FDA and we still collaborate on poppers as a cofactor...in HHV8, KS, and HIV transmission. I prioritize the immunosuppressive effect of poppers and the resulting increase of susceptibility to infections...HIV and HHV8. I remain motivated to educate folks whenever I meet someone who has not been informed about the research.

I accept that a subset of folks really like poppers and are oblivious, or hostile to the research. I have been screamed at in bars about trying to ban poppers...back in 1983 when all we did was pass a point of sale warning. I was cruising with activism not part of my mission.  I agree that the research to date has not been perfect. 

 The federal ban on poppers was pushed by Los Angeles gays who prodded their Representative  Democrat Mel Levine to attach a ban to an omnibus drug bill...which no one dared oppose...there was unfortunately no public hearing prior to the legislation being passed.

   I Served on SF Human Rights Commission - Youth and Education Committee; Local Homeless Coordinating Board; currently serve on the SF Shelter Monitoring Committee, currently on medical leave from my job managing a homeless drop in center sponsored by Haight Ashbury Free Clinics.I have been employed as an HIV Treatment Educator.Drop In center Manager,PWA Client Advocate,at Tenderloin AIDS Resource Center.
      I had the task and joy of giving the final testimony which led to the conviction of some ACT UP San Francisco denialists for disrupting an ACT UP Golden Gate forum on treatment interruptions. Being a "victim" I got to speak uninterrupted...for about 25 minutes...I channeled Perry Mason... The judge threw the book at them.
      I utilize this website for information,perspectives, and the humor. I also share my knowledge, experience, and perspectives. I have always benefited from sharing the journey. I have always included humor/laughing in my survival equation. I assume nothing.
     
Send me the psych bill. Thanks. Hank

Offline Miss Philicia

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  • celebrity poster, faker & poser
Re: Re: poppers and ks - the connection?
« Reply #18 on: August 15, 2007, 11:10:42 PM »
An affiliate of Peter Duesberg, I see.  And certain denialist websites. 


Color me shocked
"I’ve slept with enough men to know that I’m not gay"

Offline Miss Philicia

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  • celebrity poster, faker & poser
Re: Re: poppers and ks - the connection?
« Reply #19 on: August 15, 2007, 11:14:06 PM »
Poppers have given me 1425 cd4's

nuf said
"I’ve slept with enough men to know that I’m not gay"

Offline Smoothstone

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  • Posts: 96
Re: poppers and ks - the connection?
« Reply #20 on: August 15, 2007, 11:55:19 PM »
I co authored DeathRush with John Lauritsen in 1986. Lauritsen transitioned into a leading HIV denialist after the book was published. I  collected the research and we collaborated on the analysis. John has writing ability that I lack.

I have recently, months back, been portrayed on wikipedia re: "poppers" as an AIDS denialist. I have clarified reality when that surfaces.Note that the poppers industry seems to have a regular predictable presence on wikipedia...they have a vested interest so that isn't surprising. They wear me out with deletions, undoing, etc.

To be cited on a denialist website does not equate to being a denialist. I was working on the poppers education front since 1981, long before the denialist movement became visible and organized.

I have been arrested multiple times in non violent activism...mostly AIDS Activism...one time at the US Supreme Court for gay rights. If you want the details I'll flashback. 

Offline Miss Philicia

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  • celebrity poster, faker & poser
Re: Re: poppers and ks - the connection?
« Reply #21 on: August 15, 2007, 11:58:22 PM »
Smoothstone, are you on any HIV meds?
"I’ve slept with enough men to know that I’m not gay"

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: poppers and ks - the connection?
« Reply #22 on: August 15, 2007, 11:59:42 PM »
I co authored DeathRush with John Lauritsen in 1986. Lauritsen transitioned into a leading HIV denialist after the book was published. I  collected the research and we collaborated on the analysis. John has writing ability that I lack.

I have recently, months back, been portrayed on wikipedia re: "poppers" as an AIDS denialist. I have clarified reality when that surfaces.Note that the poppers industry seems to have a regular predictable presence on wikipedia...they have a vested interest so that isn't surprising. They wear me out with deletions, undoing, etc.

To be cited on a denialist website does not equate to being a denialist. I was working on the poppers education front since 1981, long before the denialist movement became visible and organized.


If you lie down with dogs, you get up with fleas.

MtD

Offline milker

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Re: poppers and ks - the connection?
« Reply #23 on: August 16, 2007, 12:03:02 AM »
Well I think it's laudable of Hank to come out on here. I read his post and I need more thinking before replying.

Milker.
mid-dec: stupid ass
mid-jan: seroconversion
mid-feb: poz
mar 07: cd4 432 (35%) vl 54000
may 07: cd4 399 (28%) vl 27760
jul 07: cd4 403 (26%) vl 99241
oct 07: cd4 353 (24%) vl 29993
jan 08: cd4 332 (26%) vl 33308
mar 08: cd4 392 (23%) vl 75548
jun 08: cd4 325 (27%) vl 45880
oct 08: cd4 197 (20%) vl 154000 <== aids diagnosis
nov 2 08 start Atripla
nov 30 08: cd4 478 (23%) vl 1880 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
feb 19 09: cd4 398 (24%) vl 430 getting there!
apr 23 09: cd4 604 (29%) vl 50 woohoo :D :D
jul 30 09: cd4 512 (29%) vl undetectable :D :D
may 27 10: cd4 655 (32%) vl undetectable :D :D

Now accepting applications from blowjob ninjas™

Offline thunter34

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Re: poppers and ks - the connection?
« Reply #24 on: August 16, 2007, 12:04:39 AM »
To be cited on a denialist website does not equate to being a denialist.


When every name you cite in your letter above pulls up denialist websites it tends to.
AIDS isn't for sissies.

Offline Dachshund

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Re: poppers and ks - the connection?
« Reply #25 on: August 16, 2007, 12:06:37 AM »
I need more thinking before replying.

Milker.

That would be a first. ::)

Offline milker

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Re: poppers and ks - the connection?
« Reply #26 on: August 16, 2007, 12:08:46 AM »
I need more thinking before replying.

Milker.

That would be a first. ::)
::) Yeah but it's late :D
mid-dec: stupid ass
mid-jan: seroconversion
mid-feb: poz
mar 07: cd4 432 (35%) vl 54000
may 07: cd4 399 (28%) vl 27760
jul 07: cd4 403 (26%) vl 99241
oct 07: cd4 353 (24%) vl 29993
jan 08: cd4 332 (26%) vl 33308
mar 08: cd4 392 (23%) vl 75548
jun 08: cd4 325 (27%) vl 45880
oct 08: cd4 197 (20%) vl 154000 <== aids diagnosis
nov 2 08 start Atripla
nov 30 08: cd4 478 (23%) vl 1880 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
feb 19 09: cd4 398 (24%) vl 430 getting there!
apr 23 09: cd4 604 (29%) vl 50 woohoo :D :D
jul 30 09: cd4 512 (29%) vl undetectable :D :D
may 27 10: cd4 655 (32%) vl undetectable :D :D

Now accepting applications from blowjob ninjas™

Offline Smoothstone

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Re: poppers and ks - the connection?
« Reply #27 on: August 16, 2007, 12:41:41 AM »
 been on the same triple combo since late 96/early 97: ziagen, viracept, rescriptor, (naltrexone - 3mg day - Dr. Bihari's recommendation back in the 80s); acyclovir as needed; NAC, Vitamin C, alpha lipoic acid and acetyl l carnitine for peripheral neuropathy,multiple vitamin, acidopholis, ginseng;

 recently added re: lung cancer: cimetidine, astragalus,L-carnitine, artemisinin, Reversatrol,laktoferrin, pomegranate extract,cordyceps, IP6-inositol,curcumin.


also zyflamend, to promote healthy inflammation response and deal with stiffness....an HIV- friend with arithritis recommended this and I experimented with this formula...within 2 days I could feel a positive change of less joint stiffness

I formerly took and discarded these meds, most for intolerable side effects
D4T,DDI, DDC, 3TC, AZT, ritonavir, crixivan, saquinavir...as well as AL721 yuck!

Also took procrit for anemia. and testosterone when I lost my sex drive. my sex drive returned and I dont need the testosterone anymore.  The low testosterone was accompanied by depression.

I also did acupuncture regularly and consider it medicine...helps my balance and stress reduction 


I was in a double blinded clinical trial for ambisone to treat cryptoccocal meningitis and luckily I got the now approved ambisone...the alternative was amphetericin...also known as "shake and bake"...chills and fever...The first time I was  in the infusion room I remember 2 guys throwing up within my first minute there...We have made tremendous progress being able to bypass drugs with horrific side effects. Still a puzzle because of individual differences. but progress and hope with more drugs in pipeline.... we'll need to remain vigilant for side effects which have yet to emerge.

As for fleas, I stopped working with Lauritsen when the denialism became evident.

If you are ever in San Francisco you can check out the GLBT Historical Society of Northern California and check my files and the files of Committee to Monitor Poppers. I almost died in 1996 and gave them my files. In the meantime I have ten more years of files at home. I think the historical society catalog listings on their website.

Channel 4, KRON, did a prime time special called LIFE AND DEATH AT THE AMBASSADOR HOTEL...which featured the residential hotel which housed over 100 PWAs...during the time when when we had no/poor treatments... They replayed prime time because of the good reviews....Hardly an AIDS denialist. To the contrary.

I am also referenced in AIDS Treatment News, and have an article about poppers in FOCUS which is a UCSF Center for AIDS Prevention website.

I was honored last year by Project Inform for my longtime AIDS activism.
Other awards from Shanti Project, Stop AIDS Project, Mobilization Against AIDS,
Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence, and was a Community Grand Marshall in the SF Pride.

Hank 

Offline Ann

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Re: Re: poppers and ks - the connection?
« Reply #28 on: August 16, 2007, 05:27:21 AM »
Hi Hank, it's good to finally get to know you a little better.

As soon as you disclosed your history of work in SF, I dug out my copy of White Nights and Ascending Shadows: An Oral History of the San Francisco AIDS Epidemic by Benjamin Heim Shepard, and there are pages and pages listed after your name in the index. I've been meaning to re-read this book for some time now and you've given me the push I needed.

I can imagine it must be very frustrating to be tarred with the denialist brush. "I channeled Perry Mason..." LOL... damn, you must have really enjoyed that court appearance!

I'm a person who thinks that while hiv is certainly the cause of aids, co-factors contribute to progression. I'm finding the potential link between poppers and HHS-8 very interesting, so I'll be watching that particular space.

Ann
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Offline Iggy

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Re: poppers and ks - the connection?
« Reply #29 on: August 16, 2007, 08:12:40 AM »
I co authored DeathRush with John Lauritsen in 1986. Lauritsen transitioned into a leading HIV denialist after the book was published. I  collected the research and we collaborated on the analysis. John has writing ability that I lack.

I have recently, months back, been portrayed on wikipedia re: "poppers" as an AIDS denialist. I have clarified reality when that surfaces.Note that the poppers industry seems to have a regular predictable presence on wikipedia...they have a vested interest so that isn't surprising. They wear me out with deletions, undoing, etc.

To be cited on a denialist website does not equate to being a denialist. I was working on the poppers education front since 1981, long before the denialist movement became visible and organized.


As for fleas, I stopped working with Lauritsen when the denialism became evident.

Hank,

I'm just curious if you have ever published a letter or public document that clearly distances you from the denialists and explains about your relationship with Lauritsen?  Maybe via blog or through a letter posted on ACT UP SF's site?

I ask not to question you or to doubt you, nor for you to prove yourself - but it does occur to me that having such a reference available on the web (outside of a wiki article that anyone can question or edit) might provide an excellent resource for both you and those who fight denialists whenever they cite your name and work.

I appreciate that this may offend some who already know of your work, but the problem we face is not those who know - but those who don't - whether of your work or that of AIDS Activism.  It's that grey area that most Denialists are able to fully take advantage of with trying to press their point.

Just a thought.

Iggy


« Last Edit: August 16, 2007, 08:18:20 AM by Iggy »

Offline Smoothstone

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Re: poppers and ks - the connection?
« Reply #30 on: August 16, 2007, 10:46:26 AM »
Thanks Ann and Iggy. I woke up thinking about White Nights and Dark Shadows: An Oral History of the AIDS Epidemic in San Francisco. I  co authored a guest editorial in the SF Chronicle years back critiquing the AIDS denialist movement. I was one of the organizers of the annual AIDS Candlelight March for the past decade often quoted in SF Bay Times, Bay Area Reporter.  I just created a blog on Wednesday...gradually remedying my internet impairment...its a generational thing for some of us.  its on www.blogspot.com under "Poppers" by sfcoach......just getting that and looking forward to it as a vehicle. I should have had a website,equivalent long ago for these very reasons.

 John James of AIDS Treatment News is familiar with my efforts re: focus on poppers, general AIDS activism and specifically ACT UP Golden Gate as is Matthew Sharp,I think Matt is one of the advisors for this site. I have worked with Marty Delaney of Project Inform since its founding back in '85... Tenderloin AIDS Resource Center, which I helped found and decades later worked at, has online historical records of newsletters which list me as Community Center Manager in 2005.

I was the catalyst for an activist meeting in Bethesda at the FDA on "buffalo hump" and FDA's failure to adequately monitor side effects. That was an eye opener re: FDA monitoring of side effects...tokenly at best...they knew no more about buffalo hump surfacing than the press reports...rather shocking to those of us present...there was  NY/DC AIDS activist representation at that meeting.
      On wikipedia re: "poppers" I have dealt with the denialist characterization several times. If you check out the  "poppers" extensive Discussion archives you will see my inputs. Most frustrating has been when the popper industry reps discredit me with being an AIDS denialist because of my work being credited on denialist websites. And then undoing material perdictably.. The discussion archive is extensive.
     

Offline thunter34

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Re: poppers and ks - the connection?
« Reply #31 on: August 16, 2007, 11:07:57 AM »
Hank,

I'm just curious if you have ever published a letter or public document that clearly distances you from the denialists and explains about your relationship with Lauritsen?  Maybe via blog or through a letter posted on ACT UP SF's site?

I appreciate that this may offend some who already know of your work, but the problem we face is not those who know - but those who don't - whether of your work or that of AIDS Activism.  It's that grey area that most Denialists are able to fully take advantage of with trying to press their point.

Just a thought.


Not very clear on why this should "offend" people already familiar with his work.  Seems if they are familiar with his anti-denialist stance, it would be perfectly in keeping with it.

I think Iggy makes a good suggestion.  That's entirely what I get when I do a search for you- pages and pages of Denialist links.

Still not very clear on why the same is true for every name you list in your letter above.  They also go to Denialist links.

Are we to assume these are also staunch anti-denialist whose good names are getting appropriated and sullied by the denialist bunch and further plotted by the popper industry?
AIDS isn't for sissies.

Offline milker

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Re: poppers and ks - the connection?
« Reply #32 on: August 16, 2007, 11:39:52 AM »

Is it possible that MSM popper users are a significantly high risk group for HHV-8 infection? If this turns out to be the case, interventions can be developed to modify/reduce popper use. Assessing popper use will help us answer this question.

Hank,

why are we still asking this question in 2007? Was that potential link between poppers and HHV-8 discarded by the medical community too fast? Not enough studies? I thought there were many studies about this done in the mid-90s that were sufficient enough to prove that there was no direct link, and the only ones that tried to prove a link were done with mice under extreme conditions.

I am a believer that poppers, like oven cleaner or nail polisher is bad if you take too much of it. I know there are very few people that sniff poppers all day. Are you targeting those? And if a link is proven, how is this going to be related to HIV? We know you can't have AIDS without HIV. We know KS is one of the AIDS OI. It's too easy to make a direct link and make people believe that poppers = HIV or AIDS. I don't use poppers so I will not get AIDS, that would be what I get of it.

Milker.
mid-dec: stupid ass
mid-jan: seroconversion
mid-feb: poz
mar 07: cd4 432 (35%) vl 54000
may 07: cd4 399 (28%) vl 27760
jul 07: cd4 403 (26%) vl 99241
oct 07: cd4 353 (24%) vl 29993
jan 08: cd4 332 (26%) vl 33308
mar 08: cd4 392 (23%) vl 75548
jun 08: cd4 325 (27%) vl 45880
oct 08: cd4 197 (20%) vl 154000 <== aids diagnosis
nov 2 08 start Atripla
nov 30 08: cd4 478 (23%) vl 1880 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
feb 19 09: cd4 398 (24%) vl 430 getting there!
apr 23 09: cd4 604 (29%) vl 50 woohoo :D :D
jul 30 09: cd4 512 (29%) vl undetectable :D :D
may 27 10: cd4 655 (32%) vl undetectable :D :D

Now accepting applications from blowjob ninjas™

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Re: poppers and ks - the connection?
« Reply #33 on: August 16, 2007, 11:48:28 AM »
I'm confused.  Should I stop using poppers or do more of them?
"I’ve slept with enough men to know that I’m not gay"

Offline Dachshund

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Re: Re: poppers and ks - the connection?
« Reply #34 on: August 16, 2007, 11:53:37 AM »
I'm confused.  Should I stop using poppers or do more of them?


Honey, at this stage of the game does it really matter anymore? I think I'm going to start smoking again.

Offline thunter34

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Re: Re: poppers and ks - the connection?
« Reply #35 on: August 16, 2007, 11:55:54 AM »
I'm confused.  Should I stop using poppers or do more of them?

i also read that crack inhibits KS.

just balance it out with that.   ;)
AIDS isn't for sissies.

Offline Iggy

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Re: poppers and ks - the connection?
« Reply #36 on: August 16, 2007, 12:23:28 PM »

Not very clear on why this should "offend" people already familiar with his work.  Seems if they are familiar with his anti-denialist stance, it would be perfectly in keeping with it.

I was probably getting a little ahead of myself with that, but I was hoping to avoid anyone who is fully aware of the work that Hank has done from feeling that my suggestion was an attack on him or asking him to justify himself to those who do not know.

In my opinion (and experiences) I have witnessed a reluctance and questioning by some to continuously educate each new generation on the how we got to a place and who certain people are. I think there is almost an affront taken by those who have fought battles to being asked to explain the background of something for what they consider should be common knowledge.

It is because of this that I think the denalists have been able to take advantage of many people's ignorance on certain subjects and get the upper hand.  For instance (and to keep this discussion on subject ) Let’s look at poppers and the intranet -  I think we see so much in relation to denalists about poppers because it has been written off as a non-issue by the legitimate AIDS organizations who don’t talk about it.  Maybe it is a non-issue, and maybe it is not - but in this day and age where everyone likes a quick answer and rarely looks beyond the first page of a Google search results - all it takes is a flood of information that equate poppers with KS on multiple denalists cites to send the uniformed (and scared) down the wrong path.

Understand that I do not make excuses for those who are lazy or prone to conspiracy theories - but I do think that there is a burden on those who wish to disprove denialist theories and who wish to distance themselves from them to be certain that their stand on an issue is in the public domain so that others (denalists) can not use the ambiguity to their advantage.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2007, 12:25:10 PM by Iggy »

Offline thunter34

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Re: poppers and ks - the connection?
« Reply #37 on: August 16, 2007, 12:28:00 PM »
and that's why i think you make an excellent and important recommedation.

it's a nifty little trick on the part of the denialists to appropriate people's ID's into their literature.   
AIDS isn't for sissies.

Offline Iggy

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Re: poppers and ks - the connection?
« Reply #38 on: August 16, 2007, 12:44:12 PM »
it's a nifty little trick on the part of the denialists to appropriate people's ID's into their literature.  

Agreed.  And as we've seen right on these boards - some are too happy to post questionable links as proof of their argument simply because a keyword or name comes up in the search results.


Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Re: poppers and ks - the connection?
« Reply #39 on: August 16, 2007, 12:46:00 PM »
... you don't say
"I’ve slept with enough men to know that I’m not gay"

Offline Iggy

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Re: Re: poppers and ks - the connection?
« Reply #40 on: August 16, 2007, 12:51:11 PM »
... you don't say

Why, yes...yes I do

Offline RapidRod

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Re: poppers and ks - the connection?
« Reply #41 on: August 16, 2007, 04:37:59 PM »
Why wasn't the starting of the post put in "Research News" forum?

Offline milker

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Re: poppers and ks - the connection?
« Reply #42 on: August 16, 2007, 10:10:40 PM »
Because it's poppers and KS. Not poppers and HIV. Voila.

Milker.
mid-dec: stupid ass
mid-jan: seroconversion
mid-feb: poz
mar 07: cd4 432 (35%) vl 54000
may 07: cd4 399 (28%) vl 27760
jul 07: cd4 403 (26%) vl 99241
oct 07: cd4 353 (24%) vl 29993
jan 08: cd4 332 (26%) vl 33308
mar 08: cd4 392 (23%) vl 75548
jun 08: cd4 325 (27%) vl 45880
oct 08: cd4 197 (20%) vl 154000 <== aids diagnosis
nov 2 08 start Atripla
nov 30 08: cd4 478 (23%) vl 1880 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
feb 19 09: cd4 398 (24%) vl 430 getting there!
apr 23 09: cd4 604 (29%) vl 50 woohoo :D :D
jul 30 09: cd4 512 (29%) vl undetectable :D :D
may 27 10: cd4 655 (32%) vl undetectable :D :D

Now accepting applications from blowjob ninjas™

 


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