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Author Topic: Why feel suicidal?  (Read 16753 times)

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Offline Optimistic

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Why feel suicidal?
« on: July 26, 2007, 07:45:27 AM »
I often wonder why people feel suicidal. I just can't relate.  Depression is one thing, but to kill yourself! Yes, we all wish we don't have this disease, but is HIV horrific enough to end your life?? How do you know you will live a full and happy life without HIV? Some people don't realize that life is fragile until something major happens.  Reality check, we will all die eventually for one reason or another....why end your life now when there is still the possibility of living and being content? I just don't get it.

I see many people without HIV who smokes like there is no tomorrow, severe alcoholics, do drugs, even carelessness on a daily basis...you name it.  People who feel suicidal after they find out they are poz...is it because they think they can't live a full and happy life?  Is it because they think they will die tomorrow? what is it?  What is it about being Poz that it's not worth living? Do those people ever take the time to educate themselves about HIV and make lifestyle changes so that HIV is apart of them but does not define who they are or how long they will live? What makes them think that without HIV they will have a full and happy life?  What makes them think they will live longer without HIV? HIV is not something to be proud of, but it is certainly not the end of the world if you choose to live. 

Life is full of challenges that we face on a daily basis. Whoever said that living and staying alive is easy? People can wake up tomorrow and get hit by a car or a bus for all I know.  What make some or most poz individuals unique is that we find ways to survive and take better care of ourselves, to live life to max until it is our time to go.....the natural way. This may not be the case for everyone, but I know people who are poz and take very good care of themselves. In fact, these people probably have better health than people who are neg. It all depends on how you view the situation.

As long as we have to will to live and make the most out of our time why we still have the chance.....then I, personally, will be content because I know I tried my best and not because I gave up. 

I just hope that people who feel suicidal will sit back and think about the good and not focus on the negatives.

Much love,
Justin
12/06 (Atripla): cd4 - 260; cd% - 33%; vl - 169
1/07 (Atripla): cd4 - 267; cd% - 38.1%; vl - 132
4/07 (Atripla): cd4 - 373; cd% - 33.9%; vl - <50
7/07 (Atripla); cd4 - 287; cd% - 35.8%; vl - <50
9/07 (Atripla); cd4 - 356; cd% - 39.5%; vl - <50
12/07 (Atripla); cd4 - 517

Offline Andy Velez

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Re: Why feel suicidal?
« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2007, 08:46:39 AM »
Op, a couple of thoughts to respond to your comments.

First of all, having passing thoughts of suicide are not all that uncommon from time to time for many people during very difficult times. For the most part they are just that -- moments that pass before long. And feeling suicidal is like many other feelings -- they can come and go. Sometimes it's just best to just notice them and let them be because like any other feeling they will usually be gone before long.

However, someone who's seriously contemplating suicide over an extended period is in a different domain than the kind of rational thinking you are talking about. For someone who's in that zone, alternatives are fading away or no longer exist. There seems to be no other way. The weight is enormous and very isolating. So urging someone who is in that state of mind to think of all the positive things and look on the bright side is either not going to be heard or may even have an adverse effect.

In my experience it's important for the person to feel they are being listened to. That can open a possibility of a dialogue which interrupt suicidal ideation which thrives on isolation.

Like I said, just some thoughts...

Cheers,

 
« Last Edit: July 26, 2007, 08:48:23 AM by Andy Velez »
Andy Velez

Offline DanielMark

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Re: Why feel suicidal?
« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2007, 03:51:33 PM »
Optimistic,

I think the answer to your question is likely a complex one, involving many factors.

Perhaps for some people, suicide seems the only alternative to living in pain (physical or psycho emotional pain) with no end in sight. A loss of control can also be behind suicidal thoughts. I know they were for me when I had them, tho not for many years now.

I also believe when a person can no longer find a reason to live, it’s because their lives have lost some central meaning and purpose.

Then again, several mental illnesses can also cause people to have suicidal thinking.

Daniel
MEDS: REYATAZ & KIVEXA (SINCE AUG 2008)

MAY 2000 LAB RESULTS: CD4 678
VL STILL UNDETECTABLE

DIAGNOSED IN 1988

Offline bear60

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Re: Why feel suicidal?
« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2007, 08:19:27 PM »
Daniel....yea I know, its amazing what a little out of whack brain chemistry can do ....when I started the Wellbutrin for quitting smoking......my dreams all of a sudden became pleasant...as opposed to the scary ones I had been having...all because of a little pill that added some chemical to the mix.
Poz Bear Type in Philadelphia

Offline JamieD

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Re: Why feel suicidal?
« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2007, 11:25:56 PM »
Daniel-

As someone who is actively suicidal and has been even before I found out I was HIV+ I will try my best to put into words why I feel like suicide is the only option. I have made a few, very serious, attempts at suicide that were not in anyway cries for help.

"Yes, we all wish we don't have this disease, but is HIV horrific enough to end your life??"

Yes, it is. HIV is called a "chronic manageable disease" by a lot of people, but this is a load of crap. The treatments extend the lifespan of people with HIV, but they have absolutely terrible side effects. It is very difficult for me to take my medication every day because I am so scared of lipodystrophy. I am quite an attractive person, and I am terrified of losing my looks. I can say that I honestly would rather be dead then live with a buffalo hump or a wasted face or ass. I know that may not be P.C. to say that since so many people here are suffering with lipodystrophy, but it's how I ho"nestly feel.
The stigma, is also very hard to deal with. I don't want to be rejected for being HIV+ when I myself would not reject someone for the same reason. People are afraid of something they know nothing about, and most people don't want to learn. It is already hard enough to find a committed long term relationship at my age, add HIV to the mix and it's much harder.

"How do you know you will live a full and happy life without HIV?"

I don't, but it certainly would be a huge weight off of my shoulders. My status causes me so much stress it's unbelievable. I lie awake for hours a night, just stressing out about it. It is constantly on my mind. I'd take being diabetic anyday over this disease.

"why end your life now when there is still the possibility of living and being content?"

Similar question to what you asked before. How do I know that things are going to get better? I was suicidal before I was HIV+. Isn't becoming HIV+ proof that things don't ever get better?

"is it because they think they can't live a full and happy life?"

Pretty much. This feels like any hope is lost. I was watching some crime television show in passing a few months ago, and one of the detectives thought she might be HIV+. When her lab let her do a PCR test, she found out that she wasn't HIV+, and she said to the person who revealed her results to her "I feel like I can dream again". I no longer feel like I have anything left to hope for.

"Is it because they think they will die tomorrow?"

I am not that lucky. It's because I think tomorrow will be the same as today, and so will the next day, and the next, and the next, and the next, and the next, and the next one after that.

"Do those people ever take the time to educate themselves about HIV and make lifestyle changes so that HIV is apart of them but does not define who they are or how long they will live?"

I am probably more educated on HIV then the vast majority of other people on this board. I wrote a 60 pages paper, with 15 pages of references, on HIV and AIDS for my biology class about 4 semesters ago. Other people are not interested though in a disease that does not affect them.

Your post was extremely condescending, so please keep your reply in check. Thanks.




Offline JamieD

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Re: Why feel suicidal?
« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2007, 11:38:31 PM »
Daniel....yea I know, its amazing what a little out of whack brain chemistry can do ....when I started the Wellbutrin for quitting smoking......my dreams all of a sudden became pleasant...as opposed to the scary ones I had been having...all because of a little pill that added some chemical to the mix.

Anti-depressants have almost never helped my feelings of suicide. They tend to make them worse actually. Every single anti-depressants I have ever been on has had an intolerable side effect, and some of had life threatening side effects. I had grade 3 liver damage from Cymbalta. Wellbutrin made me wired to the gills, and  unable to sleep. Prozac left me sedated, and made me gain weight. I could not follow the dietary restrictions of traditional MAO-Inhibitors. No psychiatrist I have ever had was willing to prescribe me a trycyclic due to the very serious suicide attempts I have made in the past.
The medication I am taking now is a Reversible inhibitor of MAO, which means that you don't have to follow the traditional dietary restrictions seen with regular ones. I have taken it before and it has been modestly effective, with no side effects to speak of. The problem with it is that it is not available in the United States and I have to fly to another country to get it.

Offline Iggy

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Re: Why feel suicidal?
« Reply #6 on: July 27, 2007, 01:13:29 AM »
Justin,

I agree with Jamie that your post does come across as condescending - a great example is  when you are saying things like "reality check" in regards to the subject of suicidal thoughts.  The irony is really quite rich.  I ask for the sake of this discussion that you consider that before you respond to anyone's posts here.

Your post is an interestingly timed one because it will be a year ago on Wednesday that I myself tried to commit suicide. 

In my case I spent the month before in complete glee because upon realizing that I was going to kill myself - nothing else mattered and suddenly I had an answer to my worries.  The whole process of preparation was actually an uplifting one to me and what most of my close friends tell me is that they had no clue that I was even "upset" at the time.

And therein lies something for you to consider.

Those with suicidal thoughts don't necessarily fit the image that you may have in your head.  They aren't necessarily morose or even outwardly depressed - no for some - suicide is something that they feel almost called to do and as perverse as it may sound - answering that call for some  brings about a sense of serenity, confidence and even happiness that is on par with what others may consider answering the call of religion.  I state this  because in both cases people are feeling something greater than themselves being offered as a solution to what ails them.  Finding that solution then becomes all that they can focus on and what they give their life to.

Understand that I am not saying that suicide is the correct answer (at least for most  - see where I talk about your HIV points below) but I am saying that when someone feels tortured and empty enough (and I remind you that those feelings need not outwardly manifest themselves in ways you might even recognize) then the daily act of living is so painful that they would rather feel nothing (which would come via way of death.)

Also I think you need to perhaps take a look at some recent threads or blogs here to realize why in the context of HIV that your thread also moves on the border of offensive (not your question btw - just some of the points which are written in question format that you state in your OP)  Yes - for some HIV IS THAT SERIOUS (sorry to shout but in this case I think it's necessary.)

I think it is just great that you have an optimistic view of the future, but I would hope that your ability to see a happy future for yourself does not preclude you from seeing the reality of others who can not share your sentiments - whether because they have legitimate questions about long term side effects to their regimens, or those who are in fact suffering greatly: mentally, emotionally, physically and financially because of both the toll of HIV and the medications.

On the physical level, you may think I am only talking of Long Term Survivors here, but I am not.  It may shock you to realize that some people who are newly diagnosed don't do well with ANY regimen immediately start to suffer from opportunistic infections.  Sure there is hope that something will come out and help them, but when you go from healthy to long term sick in a matter of weeks than you start to lose some ability to see hope. 

Also for some - having HIV means being scared every day of how they will pay for their treatment.  There are some people on this board who can attest to losing their homes and bank accounts to either pay for their meds or to qualify for ADAP.  I know quite a few people who don't feel like they are living at all. For some the stress of how to afford to live is enough to make them seriously contemplate just not trying anymore.

An this brings me to a final point - Contrary to after school specials belief - Suicide is not always about depression or mental problems at all.  For some (and this is very relevant with HIV in particular) suicide is not a dramatic jump in the river or gun to the head, but  the conscious, sober and rational choice that many face of when the medications and treatments are more harmful than beneficial.  Something you don't seem to realize is a lot more common than your own experiences have shown you.

BTW - I want to be clear that there are many who don't consider suicide to be the answer for them or in general, and it might surprise you based of what I wrote about myself that I am one of them.  In my case it was only by coming so close to it that I was able to realize it was not "my" answer.  However I do recognize that there are complex issues behind anyone considering suicide that can not be explained away by just suggesting that the person needs to find hope or  just to believe that it will all get better - because in many cases in never will.

Your post leaves me feeling that you are you are very naive in regards to both  HIV and mental health and because of that I am more saddened by your post than angered.  I do implore you to take a look at some of the responses you already have, and some of the threads that specifically talk about things like neuropathy, disability, living on ADAP, resistance to meds before you reply to anyone.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2007, 01:21:56 AM by Iggy »

Offline shadowfluid

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Re: Why feel suicidal?
« Reply #7 on: July 27, 2007, 03:27:14 AM »
Wow way to alienate people who are going through tough times.
Jan 08       321/23%  VL 92,000 (very mild shingles)
Feb 1 08    Start Truvada+Viramune
March 08    470/33%  VL 320
mid-May     Start Reyataz/Norvir/Truvada
June 08      571/ 40%     VL   80
August 08   585/ 33%     VL >50
Nov  Lab error!!!!!!!!wah.
Jan 09        535      Undetectable
March 11     756

Offline DanielMark

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Re: Why feel suicidal?
« Reply #8 on: July 27, 2007, 04:33:54 AM »
Daniel....yea I know, its amazing what a little out of whack brain chemistry can do ....when I started the Wellbutrin for quitting smoking......my dreams all of a sudden became pleasant...as opposed to the scary ones I had been having...all because of a little pill that added some chemical to the mix.

Bear,

I’ve been on several types of antidepressants in the past (including Wellbutrin as an attempted stop smoking assist) and have to say that all of them were completely useless. The only things that have actually helped me to manage my depression/anxiety states have been a mild sedative and ongoing Cognitive Behaviour Therapy. I have learned how to live with both of these conditions and how to manage my life so that it’s good enough for me to still want to live. But everybody’s different.

Daniel
MEDS: REYATAZ & KIVEXA (SINCE AUG 2008)

MAY 2000 LAB RESULTS: CD4 678
VL STILL UNDETECTABLE

DIAGNOSED IN 1988

Offline Optimistic

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Re: Why feel suicidal?
« Reply #9 on: July 27, 2007, 01:14:49 PM »
Hey guys, thanks for all the replies. I don't mean to come across as condescending at all.  I apologize if it came across that way. I'm not trying to alienate anyone with suicidal thoughts. I just simply don't understand it.

I know HIV is a horrible disease. HIV comes with many worries and burdens...I get it.  I face these challenges on a daily basis, from financial stability to treatment options to acceptance.  I have been poz for 5 years and have not disclosed to my friends and family.  I cannot confide with anyone about my feelings and what I have been going through.  I struggle to make payments for treatments everyday. I fear opportunistic infections and rejection constantly. I been through disability issues, ADAP, resistance, opportunistic infections, depression....the whole 9 yards. I constantly feel like I am coming to an end of the road.  I had a good life going for me before I was Poz.  My whole life changed for the worse (much worse) after I found out I was poz. It would be a major burden off my shoulders if I was negative and life would be much better off for me. I almost dropped out of school, which took a major toll on my grades near the end of my studies which costed me jobs that I would have gotten if I had kept up my school work.  I have lost jobs in the past.  I was depressed for a long time, always kept to myself and just slept and locked myself in my room all the time. I felt like the outside world did exist anymore. I have been through internal bleeding in my legs where I wasn't able to walk. I have had constant rashes that wouldn't go away.  I feel tired all the timne. I have asthma. When I go on dates and disclose my status, I usually never hear from them again.  I worry about opportunistic infections every day...in fact ever minute.  Whenever I find something wrong with me like a bump in my head I would think is it cancer.  When the rashes come and go, I would think what is wrong with me...is there something wrong in my blood system that are causing the rashes.  I've been to the emergency room twice for what I thought was mosquito bites at first, but turned out to be something else.  I've been to the emergency room once because I had trouble breathing. I thought I was going to die. When I am tired, I feel like the struggle is too much.  I always feel that I am not attractive to anyone, especially with HIV. I feel that my meds is not working anymore because my CD counts have dropped the last time I had a check up from 380s back to the 200s even though I take my meds on time every single day.  My joints constantly aches. I wonder how I am going to pay for my meds if I lose my job.  I worry about treatment options constantly.  I have to act normal around my friends and family.  I never go on dates anymore because of the fear of rejection.  I shut my friends and family out of my life. Even when I sleep, HIV constantly flows through my head.  It's like a never ending story.  I wake up in the middle of the night sometimes feeling lost and scared. I feel lonely all the time, but I can't do anything about it. Whenever there is people around, I have to hide my meds worried that they would find out.  I never talk much anymore. I had plans to go to grad school, but that is out of the question now.  Despite all this, the thought of suicide never crossed my mind.

My point is when I see people who are in better position than I am wanting to die, I just don't get it...that is all. 

This is exactly why I shut myself out from people because of the reaction I get when I feel a certain way and try to express it.  I just simply don't get why people feel suicidal and the responses I get is that I am naive about HIV or mental health, that I am alienating people, that I should be more considerate, that I don't know what it's like because there are people with HIV who are not as lucky.  I consider myself lucky just to be alive...but I guess that is just not good enough for some people.

Justin
12/06 (Atripla): cd4 - 260; cd% - 33%; vl - 169
1/07 (Atripla): cd4 - 267; cd% - 38.1%; vl - 132
4/07 (Atripla): cd4 - 373; cd% - 33.9%; vl - <50
7/07 (Atripla); cd4 - 287; cd% - 35.8%; vl - <50
9/07 (Atripla); cd4 - 356; cd% - 39.5%; vl - <50
12/07 (Atripla); cd4 - 517

Offline dagdave2

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Re: Why feel suicidal?
« Reply #10 on: July 27, 2007, 01:27:36 PM »
well; life is difficult and sometimes you just want to go to another dimension. that's my theory. greetings from mexico.

Offline DanielMark

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Re: Why feel suicidal?
« Reply #11 on: July 27, 2007, 04:29:52 PM »
Justin,

It's an unfortunate part of life on the Internet, but as in the actual world people can sometimes be quick to judge and sometimes selfish to the point of being mean. For me, I just take that as part of logging online. It's not worth getting upset about.

But please don't believe that all people are that way because it's just not so. I thought your question was valid and stand by everything I responded with.

Daniel
MEDS: REYATAZ & KIVEXA (SINCE AUG 2008)

MAY 2000 LAB RESULTS: CD4 678
VL STILL UNDETECTABLE

DIAGNOSED IN 1988

Offline JamieD

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Re: Why feel suicidal?
« Reply #12 on: July 27, 2007, 04:37:55 PM »
who was being selfish and mean? care to point out where people were being selfish and mean? I answer his questions as honestly as I could and then asked him to keep his condescending tone to a minimum in his reply.

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Why feel suicidal?
« Reply #13 on: July 27, 2007, 04:55:17 PM »
I think it was more an issue of indelicate wording in the initial posting, not particularly the asking of the actual question.  I can see how someone would view it as  somewhat condescending.
"I’ve slept with enough men to know that I’m not gay"

Offline DanielMark

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Re: Why feel suicidal?
« Reply #14 on: July 27, 2007, 05:02:17 PM »
who was being selfish and mean? care to point out where people were being selfish and mean?

Hi Jamie,

My comments were in reply to Justin. I wasn't addressing you personally. Sorry you took it that way.

Daniel
MEDS: REYATAZ & KIVEXA (SINCE AUG 2008)

MAY 2000 LAB RESULTS: CD4 678
VL STILL UNDETECTABLE

DIAGNOSED IN 1988

Offline Iggy

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Re: Why feel suicidal?
« Reply #15 on: July 27, 2007, 07:26:32 PM »

This is exactly why I shut myself out from people because of the reaction I get when I feel a certain way and try to express it.  I just simply don't get why people feel suicidal and the responses I get is that I am naive about HIV or mental health, that I am alienating people, that I should be more considerate, that I don't know what it's like because there are people with HIV who are not as lucky.  I consider myself lucky just to be alive...but I guess that is just not good enough for some people.

Justin

 I'm more offended by your reaction and response to some of the points raise than your original post.

Modified: I agree with Daniel who says others are quick to judge - except in this case I think he has the wrong party.

You wrote that you just didn't get people with suicidal thoughts - if that is true then I suggest you listen to those who have had them with an open mind instead of reacting that you are the victim of people misunderstanding you.  Really -  Is that such a strange idea for someone who repeatedly states that they just don't understand and then starts a discussion thread on the matter inviting others for their views?

Also If you are so quick to be offended by such responses then perhaps you need to do your research in a one on one setting with a therapist or even to read a few articles vs. trying to start a discussion thread on the matter. 

As I said in my first post - I don't have an issue with your question and welcome a discussion, but your repeated statements that you just don't get people who have suicidal thoughts and then offense at being told why your post bothered those who do makes me wonder what exactly is the point here?

« Last Edit: July 27, 2007, 07:52:50 PM by Iggy »

Offline Optimistic

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Re: Why feel suicidal?
« Reply #16 on: July 28, 2007, 12:20:26 AM »
I wasn't trying to be sympathetic in my original post, I was being as blunt as possible. Maybe I shouldn't have come across that way.  Jamie, why would you feel that my post is condescending when you are having thoughts of committing suicide. I would think that nothing else matters if you are having those thoughts and that you wouldn't give a rats-butt about my post, but you do and that shows me that you still have the strength in you to live.  I truly hope you will be ok Jamie. 

Iggy, I am not offended by people stating their views.  I just felt offended when I was accused of being naive about HIV and the mental health issues, alienating people or being condescending.  I am going through or have gone through what people have expressed here and which is why I don't get it.  I do listen to what people have to say when they feel suicidal.  I undestand the points that people raise here, but to me, it's not enough to die.....things like  I can't pay for my meds, I don't want to take meds forever, I don't want to be rejected, I feel so lonely, I ruined my life by contracting HIV, I lost all my money because of this, I feel ashamed, I can't deal with the opportunistic infections, I've heard it all.... rather than dwelling upon death, why not try and fix it? Are these problems not repairable?  Don't get me wrong, I appreciate all of you giving examples and reasons why one would choose to end their life.....but to me I feel that these problems are not the end of the world. Why not take a step back and try to focus on the good rather than the bad?  From Andy's comment, I realize that not everyone can be rational.  HIV can bring upon many terrible issues and I get it, but it's just not enough to end a life...that's what I don't get.   If a person is still able to walk, talk, have both of their hands and able to work and improving their life, I just don't see why they have to choose death. People come to road blocks all the time, and if these people feel they have to die every time something tough happens, then life would be meaningless in the first place.  What make life special is getting through the difficult times and learning from it.  When I hear reasons why people want to die, I just don't get it most of the time. I have heard legitimate reasons why people want to end their lives and I can sympathize with that, but most of the time I just don't get it.  Maybe there is no real logical reason why people want to die. Who doesn't go through tough times in life? Whether HIV or not.

I have friends who killed themselves over matters that can be resolved one way or another.  To these victims who killed themselves, many people have tried talking, helping, reasoning, sympathizing....none which helped.

Maybe I'm not as sympathetic as most of you.....but when people feel suicidal....I want them to know that there are always solutions to resolve things one way or another. Ultimately, you are the only one who can help yourself....not some other people or a therapist. There is no absolute in anything., which is why I posted this in the first place.

Justin
12/06 (Atripla): cd4 - 260; cd% - 33%; vl - 169
1/07 (Atripla): cd4 - 267; cd% - 38.1%; vl - 132
4/07 (Atripla): cd4 - 373; cd% - 33.9%; vl - <50
7/07 (Atripla); cd4 - 287; cd% - 35.8%; vl - <50
9/07 (Atripla); cd4 - 356; cd% - 39.5%; vl - <50
12/07 (Atripla); cd4 - 517

Offline Iggy

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Re: Why feel suicidal?
« Reply #17 on: July 28, 2007, 09:22:07 AM »
I wasn't trying to be sympathetic in my original post, I was being as blunt as possible. ...

...Iggy, I am not offended by people stating their views.  I just felt offended when I was accused of being naive about HIV and the mental health issues, alienating people or being condescending. ...

...HIV can bring upon many terrible issues and I get it, but it's just not enough to end a life...that's what I don't get.  ...

...Maybe there is no real logical reason why people want to die. Who doesn't go through tough times in life? Whether HIV or not....

Maybe I'm not as sympathetic as most of you.....but when people feel suicidal....I want them to know that there are always solutions to resolve things one way or another. Ultimately, you are the only one who can help yourself....not some other people or a therapist. There is no absolute in anything, which is why I posted this in the first place.

Justin

Justin  - I think you should trust your instincts when you wrote the first time, the second time, the third time (and so forth) that you just don't get it and stopped trying to make a point about people who have suicidal thoughts - because for one who doesn't get it you are hell bent on trying to prove that you have answers.

I stand by my posts of your naivety on both HIV and mental health.


Offline bear60

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Re: Why feel suicidal?
« Reply #18 on: July 30, 2007, 02:08:53 PM »
I found there isnt much you can do.  When someone decides to do it and then does it, few people were told.  I know of one person who blew his brains out with a gun rather than face "Yet Another" opportunistic infection.  He recovered from PCP, I believe and when the second one started he shot himself.  He didnt dicuss this with people. He didnt ask for advice on how to do it.  He just did it.
Poz Bear Type in Philadelphia

Offline JamieD

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Re: Why feel suicidal?
« Reply #19 on: July 30, 2007, 02:12:04 PM »
I am actively considering suicide, not attempting it everyday. And I do still have a will to live, which is why I am here. But that will to live comes into question on an almost daily basis. Everyday I wonder about how much longer I can tolerate feeling this way.

Offline SASA39

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Re: Why feel suicidal?
« Reply #20 on: July 30, 2007, 03:11:05 PM »
I constantly feel like I am coming to an end of the road.  I had a good life going for me before I was Poz.  My whole life changed for the worse (much worse) after I found out I was poz. It would be a major burden off my shoulders if I was negative and life would be much better off for me.
I felt like the outside world did exist anymore.
Whenever I find something wrong with me like a bump in my head I would think is it cancer.  When the rashes come and go, I would think what is wrong with me...is there something wrong in my blood system that are causing the rashes.  I shut my friends and family out of my life. Even when I sleep, HIV constantly flows through my head.  It's like a never ending story.  I wake up in the middle of the night sometimes feeling lost and scared. I feel lonely all the time, but I can't do anything about it. Whenever there is people around, I have to hide my meds worried that they would find out.  I never talk much anymore.
My point is when I see people who are in better position than I am wanting to die, I just don't get it...that is all. 


1.I have HIV-AIDS .
2.I`m a social threat to my family in case of disclosure.
3.I have lost a job and cannot support my family.
4.My wife is suppoting me.
5.She is having an affair also , and she has been dishonnest with me about. it ,which impacted me more than affair itself.( and she has been told to live her life)
6.She want a divorce.( In that case I might loose a social medical support)
7.I think that I cannot live without my children. , or alone.............
8.I have no close friends anymore.
9.I have no parents or living relatives anymore. ( even no one to organize a last rites................).A great mayority of them has died of cancer........
10.Flat where we live now is 50/50 , so in case of divorce I would have to let it go to a family.........................
11.I `m feeling that I have ashamed my family , parents , childrens , noble ( and they were really like that) ancesstors..........and that many people around here are just waiting to put a finger to me or my family.......
12.There is a lack of drug supplies , tests & HIV devices in my country , and only 3 doc`s and one crazy schrink for a more than 600 patients.......not to mention a state of hospitals.................

So really why feel like that ?
[/b]
« Last Edit: July 30, 2007, 03:15:21 PM by SASA39 »
Oct.     `06.  CD4=58  ?    %       VL not perform. ?!?
25.Dec.`06.         203       14        VL= 0
29.May.`07.    broken device        VL=1363
20.June`07     broken device        VL=0
25.Dec `07  CD4=582                  VL=70
14.May `08  CD4=448
29.July `08                                  VL=0
26.Nov `08  CD4=674                    VL=179
16.Mar `09  CD4=554                    VL=0
19.Jan`10 CD4=715               
03.Mar`10                                    VL=0
24.Aug`10 CD4=524                     VL=0
04.Dec`10 CD4=626                     VL=0
15.Sep`11                                   VL=93
17.Nov`11                                   VL=0
05/26 .Jul`12 CD4=713                 VL=0
28.Nov`12 CD4=916                     VL=0
09.May`13                                 VL=0

Offline BubbaPat

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Re: Why feel suicidal?
« Reply #21 on: July 30, 2007, 08:09:41 PM »
Hey Justin,

Thanks for starting the thread.  A good conversation is always worthwhile.

I used to be soooo optimistic about life, I felt the same way as Justin.  I really didn't get suicide.  Sure, there would be times I thought about it but every time I would realize that the problems that showed up were simply problems to overcome.

Now that I'm a bit older, I sometimes think those problems are just too big to overcome anymore.  Or simply that I'm tired of trying to overcome the same problems.

Justin, I personally think we all start off as children with the ability to see the brighter side of everything.  Its only as we get older that we learn to focus on the dark side of living and allow thoughts like suicide to creep in.  The everyday challenge is remember what it was like to be young and how everything and anything was possible.

Bubba hugs!!
Patrick
 :D
Bubba hugs!
Patrick

Offline sweetasmeli

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Re: Why feel suicidal?
« Reply #22 on: July 31, 2007, 04:05:15 PM »
I'm probably known by most on here as perky and optimistic, which generally I am. I'm all for seeing the half-full cup and looking for that silver lining, as elusive as it may seem at times.

But I also have my dark times. I have experienced suicidal thoughts. Even now - at my happiest - I have my moments. I suspect they come and go with hormones rather than situations - I'm not entirely sure - but as I know I would never act on my thoughts and they tend to go almost as quickly as they come, I don't worry about them any more.   

I have friends who have had suicidal thoughts and friends who still have them. Having been there myself, I don't actually find this abnormal. To be honest, I don't even try to 'get it'. It just is how it is and I simply love and respect my friends and accept how they feel as and when they feel it. And I'm there for them as and when they need me, as they are for me.

I have a cousin who has attempted suicide countless times. We have talked about it. Her simple answer as to the 'whys and wherefore' (which I didn't ask - she volunteered) is she simply doesn't value life as much as others do. And even though I don't feel the same myself, I do get her to a degree. I know of some of the horrors life has dealt her and I do understand why she thinks the way she thinks. Knowing what I know about her life, I also think it's understandable. It doesn't stop me feeling sad about it as well as helpless. But ultimately I respect her right to feel how she feels and the fact that she feels how she feels. And I just let her know she's loved and I'm there for her if/when she ever wants to talk.
 
Humans are complex creatures with complex lives. One person's molehill can be another's insurmountable Everest. Even without understanding, simple compassion often goes a long way.

Melia
« Last Edit: July 31, 2007, 04:07:01 PM by sweetasmeli »
/\___/\       /\__/\
(=' . '=)    (=' . '=)
(,,,_ ,,,)/   (,,,_ ,,,)/ Cats rule!

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Yeia kai hara (health and happiness) to everyone!

Offline lucas clay

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Re: Why feel suicidal?
« Reply #23 on: July 31, 2007, 10:50:54 PM »
 i never understood why anyone would ever think about it.
 now i do understand why people think about it,
 Not from this thread, but from feelings i have had the past few years.
 just a passing thought that passes as fast as it came,like a thief in the night that you never did see.
coming or going.
 Like the dream you cant remember.
 but for a small shred of emotion that lingers with you.

 many people on this thread listed many reasons, one hit home hard today,
 but emotions i think are the deciding factor, reasons pro and con can be sifted through and  logic will 
 usually win out.

 today i heard i don't live today on the radio, a song i never gave much thought to at all.
 today i understood, not through reason but through emotion why people can do it.
 I liked it better when i did not understand

                                                       Lucas

Offline milker

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Re: Why feel suicidal?
« Reply #24 on: August 01, 2007, 01:38:42 AM »
Everyday I wonder about how much longer I can tolerate feeling this way.

Justin, I think that may help you understand why people commit suicide. What may seem a burden to you is viewed as not tolerable for certain. What is an annoyance to you is unbearable pain for others.

Milker.
mid-dec: stupid ass
mid-jan: seroconversion
mid-feb: poz
mar 07: cd4 432 (35%) vl 54000
may 07: cd4 399 (28%) vl 27760
jul 07: cd4 403 (26%) vl 99241
oct 07: cd4 353 (24%) vl 29993
jan 08: cd4 332 (26%) vl 33308
mar 08: cd4 392 (23%) vl 75548
jun 08: cd4 325 (27%) vl 45880
oct 08: cd4 197 (20%) vl 154000 <== aids diagnosis
nov 2 08 start Atripla
nov 30 08: cd4 478 (23%) vl 1880 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
feb 19 09: cd4 398 (24%) vl 430 getting there!
apr 23 09: cd4 604 (29%) vl 50 woohoo :D :D
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Offline SASA39

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Re: Why feel suicidal?
« Reply #25 on: August 01, 2007, 06:38:28 AM »
I wrote a post just  for anyone to see that my behavior is not provoked by some fictional events ( a crash plane , meteorite explosion , or a fear of giant bug`s attack)................It was provoked by dozen of really hard now- life problems that I do not know how to solve , for the first time in my life.And I do not want to make these problems bigger..............
I value my life and I think of suicide as a ultimate sin that one human soul could do against itself .................. but sometimes as I have said I do not see a solution..............and a " take one day by day " tactic would not resolve these problems...........
Any advices ?

And of top of all that my wife just had a car crash.
She is OK but the car are not.
And she also has to see a doctor because she is having a problems with her panfull hip since she gave birth to my youngest daughter. ( Isciaticus )
                       
« Last Edit: August 01, 2007, 06:48:15 AM by SASA39 »
Oct.     `06.  CD4=58  ?    %       VL not perform. ?!?
25.Dec.`06.         203       14        VL= 0
29.May.`07.    broken device        VL=1363
20.June`07     broken device        VL=0
25.Dec `07  CD4=582                  VL=70
14.May `08  CD4=448
29.July `08                                  VL=0
26.Nov `08  CD4=674                    VL=179
16.Mar `09  CD4=554                    VL=0
19.Jan`10 CD4=715               
03.Mar`10                                    VL=0
24.Aug`10 CD4=524                     VL=0
04.Dec`10 CD4=626                     VL=0
15.Sep`11                                   VL=93
17.Nov`11                                   VL=0
05/26 .Jul`12 CD4=713                 VL=0
28.Nov`12 CD4=916                     VL=0
09.May`13                                 VL=0

Offline bobino

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Re: Why feel suicidal?
« Reply #26 on: August 02, 2007, 02:45:00 AM »

Justin,

I think that Iggy and other posters have very eloquently explained to you why people would consider suicide.  Asking people simply to "focus on the good" shows that you really haven't tried to absorb what they've written. 

Having HIV is extremely difficult.  And since it's a disease that disproportionately affects gay men, it afflicts a population that's already dealing with the host of other emotional problems that can arise from homophobia.  In other words, many of us are already stigmatized because we're gay, and now we've got a fatal disease to deal with on top of that.  And if you're like me, and you've got clinical depression anyway, sometimes nonexistence can seem preferable to existence.  At least when one is dead, one doesn't have to suffer anymore.  (Unless you're religious and believe in all of that hell business.  I don't.)

I'm fortunate in that nowadays I'm extremely happy.  I'm reasonably healthy, I have a fantastic partner whom I love very much, and a job that provides me with material comfort.  At the moment, I'd never consider suicide.  But I can certainly appreciate how someone who's been battling medication side-effects and OIs for years might just decide to hang it up rather than end up bedridden and incontinent.  Sometimes ending one's life while one still has some shred of dignity left is a perfectly reasonable option.  If you can't understand that, that's fine.  Just don't act shocked at those who do.

John
Suivons les rivičres
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Restons en colčre
Soyons vigilants

Offline englishgirl

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Re: Why feel suicidal?
« Reply #27 on: August 03, 2007, 12:03:52 PM »
As far as the POV of ‘understanding’ suicide goes – my opinion is, and always has been, that to understand is to empathise is to maybe do the same yourself one day.

I think that there are some lucky people out there who will never really be able to understand suicide because their psyche would never contemplate it no matter how bad their situation.

Unfortunately some of those people express their non-understanding of those who do experience suicidal feelings in particularly intolerant and patronising ways. I personally did not take Justin’s post that way, but maybe that is down to my interpretation. I would much rather someone who was not predisposed to suicide actually wanted to find out the alternative point of view (which is what I took Jusitn’s post to be attempting) than to not make any attempt to find out what it is that drives the suicidal impulse.

Ironically my own experience of the interaction of long term clinical depression and HIV is that the diagnosis actually gave me far far more of an impetus to beat the depression than before, as I am now fighting the disease! But who knows when those feelings might change. I know that no matter what happens to me, good or bad, I will always have the risk of a relapse into severe depression – I think it is partly in my chemical makeup – so I’m not sure I would ever want to risk being completely anti-depressant free.

Justin, for me what I would want you to understand is that feeling suicidal is not a choice that an individual makes. You can try to control it with therapy, anit-depressants, friends, support etc but it seems to come from within for no specific reason and for me has never felt at all controllable. I first attempted to strangle myself when I was about 7 years old, and still don't really understand why. That's why I believe that it comes from within.

Having HIV is extremely difficult.  And since it's a disease that disproportionately affects gay men, it afflicts a population that's already dealing with the host of other emotional problems that can arise from homophobia.
John – I hope you are not suggesting that it is worse to have hiv if you are a gay man than any other demographic? (See, just shows that what we say on the internet can be misinterpreted) And nowadays I actually think you will find that the heterosexual population of Africa is the most disproportionately affected by hiv. Not to be flippant but I would rather be a gay man living in a first world country than a resident of (eg) Zimbabwe. Not that I am actually either, but I know people who fall into either category and I know who I’d rather be… Please understand that my intent is not to belittle the struggles that some homosexuals have to face (and obviously living in a big city like I do is hugely different than being gay/coming out in for example the rural US) but I think that it really does depend on the experience of the individual. I think I know what you were getting at tho.

best wishes to all, especially those who need a bit of extra love at the moment
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Offline milker

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Re: Why feel suicidal?
« Reply #28 on: August 03, 2007, 11:13:50 PM »
For some reason I can't modify my previous post that I just re-read. I wanted to remove the "viewed as", because it's not "viewed as not tolerable", it IS not tolerable.

Milker.
mid-dec: stupid ass
mid-jan: seroconversion
mid-feb: poz
mar 07: cd4 432 (35%) vl 54000
may 07: cd4 399 (28%) vl 27760
jul 07: cd4 403 (26%) vl 99241
oct 07: cd4 353 (24%) vl 29993
jan 08: cd4 332 (26%) vl 33308
mar 08: cd4 392 (23%) vl 75548
jun 08: cd4 325 (27%) vl 45880
oct 08: cd4 197 (20%) vl 154000 <== aids diagnosis
nov 2 08 start Atripla
nov 30 08: cd4 478 (23%) vl 1880 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
feb 19 09: cd4 398 (24%) vl 430 getting there!
apr 23 09: cd4 604 (29%) vl 50 woohoo :D :D
jul 30 09: cd4 512 (29%) vl undetectable :D :D
may 27 10: cd4 655 (32%) vl undetectable :D :D

Now accepting applications from blowjob ninjas™

Offline bobino

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Re: Why feel suicidal?
« Reply #29 on: August 13, 2007, 03:13:27 AM »

Englishgirl,

No, I am in no way suggesting that it is "worse" to have HIV if one is gay, as opposed to being part of some other demographic.  What I am saying is that being gay (even without HIV) can saddle a person with plenty of emotional problems all by itself.  When you add a disease as stressful as HIV on top of that, you compound the emotional difficulties. 

And please bear in mind that I am speaking solely of emotional issues here.  I don't want to confuse this with issues of basic access to health care.  Obviously, as you point out, it's far better to be a first-world gay man with HIV than a straight African with the disease.  But I'm not straight and I'm not African, so I can't really comment intelligently  on what that experience would be like.

John


Suivons les rivičres
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Restons en colčre
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Offline koksi

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Re: Why feel suicidal?
« Reply #30 on: August 14, 2007, 01:13:47 PM »
As cliche and hackneyed as it sounds, I think that depression and low-self-esteem actually contribute to the spread of the disease; the relationship between self-hate and HIV might in fact constitute a 'vicious cycle'.  I am pretty sure in my own case that problems and frustrations in my life, related to my career mainly, led me to kind of give up on myself.  I contemplated suicide A LOT prior to getting infected.  Then I got infected, but my career situation improved -- all at the exact same time.  So it's been weird.  However, yes, in the last several months I have thought of suicide and different ways of doing it. 

But I couldn't actually commit suicide because it would hurt too many people.  If there were a way I could simply 'disappear' without actually having to kill myself, I am sure I wouldn't be here now.  The only reasonable plan I could  come up with for actually committing suicide involved a multi-year project of alienating all of my friends and family, breaking up with my boyfriend, etc., and then kind of just isolating myself so much that when I eventually did it, no one would notice.  Thus, I principally worry about the ethics of suicide and the harm and suffering it would inflict on others.

It is sort of naive to ask, 'Why feel suicidal?'  Surely you understand that there are complex emotional and personal reasons anyone would feel that way.
seroconversion in March of 2006
positive test May 2006

10/2013: Undetectable, CD4 1000
2009:  Began Atripla

10/2007:  VL 2,300 // no CD4 numbers! :-(
09/2007:  Begin Truvada/Reyataz/Norvir
08/2007:  VL 824,000 // CD4 344 // 21%
06/2007:  VL 326,000 // CD4 351 // 17%
04/2007:  VL 410,000 // CD4 242 // 26%
06/2006:  VL 444,893 // CD4 479 // 21%
05/2006:  VL >500K    // CD4 402 // 17%

Offline Iggy

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Re: Why feel suicidal?
« Reply #31 on: August 14, 2007, 04:09:43 PM »
If there were a way I could simply 'disappear' without actually having to kill myself, I am sure I wouldn't be here now.  The only reasonable plan I could  come up with for actually committing suicide involved a multi-year project of alienating all of my friends and family, breaking up with my boyfriend, etc., and then kind of just isolating myself so much that when I eventually did it, no one would notice.  Thus, I principally worry about the ethics of suicide and the harm and suffering it would inflict on others.

Koksi, your post was incredible, and this passage in particular really struck something within me.  I hope you don’t mind that I use it as an opening into a bit of an elaboration on things I have already written above.

When I was at my lowest point, I actually contemplated ways that I could just “disappear” but I couldn’t come up with anything short of just stowing away on a train or hitchhiking (I was flat broke) and then I was left with the question of, “What next?” Frankly I didn’t have the guts, or strength to even want to contemplate a “next” as I guess it felt too much like an adventure to me, and what I really wanted at the time was just the absence of feeling anything anymore….well – really just absence of pain, but I was so far gone at that point that I couldn’t see anything but pain – even images of happiness were always followed by a surety that pain would follow – almost as a punishment for being happy – but I digress.

After a loud and public (and badly coded) message that I was planning on offing myself, I did just disappear in a sense.  I spent the next couple of weeks quietly and surely tying loose ends and making my plans. I separated myself from the board and some of the people I knew in day to day life.  For those I could not physically disappear from, well, as I stated in my first post – most people who knew me and knew that I was unhappy all thought that everything was suddenly well again – because in many ways I did disappear – it wasn’t the real me anymore they were seeing or talking to, but the mask and fakeness of “all is well” me. 

And that was comforting to me.

It also strengthened my resolve to commit suicide as I figured that they would have only these happy memories of me now that I acted like all was well right to the end vs. seeing me suffering.  I think this is a major issue with many people who attempt suicide as it is not only their pain and suffering but their embarrassment of their pain and suffering.  I wish I had mentioned this in my first post as I think this point is so critical in my mind:  When you are feeling so dark and in pain, I think it is natural to feel ashamed or embarrassed and revert to almost an animal instinct of wanting to hide yourself from the herd. 

Have you ever seen someone with more than one animal under their care, and one of them gets sick? Even when someone takes one pet to the vet and then brings it home to the others. The sick animal don’t like the other animals to smell them or even come near them and sometimes lash out at them in a sort of defense. Like Koski’s point of alienating others, I think humans, like animals, allow our own perceived weaknesses to become magnified and shade our projection of how we think others see us, and as a result we can sometimes lash out in an attempt to hide our sickness - almost like we know that being depressed makes our very appearance or scent change like that of a sick animal. 

The other analogy that comes to mind is the funhouse mirrors that morph your image – only that image is what you convince yourself is how you really look to the world.  It becomes almost unbearable to feel so “ugly” and you want to just stop the gawking that you perceive everyone is doing of your abnormalities.

Unfortunately humans are gregarious social beings and for the most part, we need others to survive.  We can never disappear for too long as we are unable by our very nature to be away from others.  Just starting anew in a different place doesn’t work either if you are still battling the feelings that have caused you down this path to begin with as sooner or later that funhouse mirror face will be there - looking right at you.  For most of us it is misguided to separate ourselves from the herd because we become more and more consumed with a deadly certainty that we are in fact those funhouse images particularly in the absence of interaction with others who can provide validation that we are not those images.

This is why I say it is not so simply to just look on the bright side of things or just to say there is always hope or a solution to suicidal thoughts.  Because many times it has nothing to do with hope or a “solution” per se so much as a complete change in your perceptions of everything from self to how you perceive others to view you – and that kind of change takes a lot of work that many are unable to even contemplate or even fathom is possible.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2007, 04:11:45 PM by Iggy »

Offline koksi

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Re: Why feel suicidal?
« Reply #32 on: August 15, 2007, 10:03:32 AM »
Iggy, totally random connection:  I want to get a dog really bad.

I am sorry to read of your struggles with self-destructive thoughts.  I hate it when I give myself over to the poisonous emotions that end up creating the circumstances that they also respond to:  they make you feel really hateful towards other, a hate that is then reflected right back at you.  I think you describe this in your post.

I remember telling my therapist back in those really dark days:  "I want to go sit in a dark corner and turn off the light."  That's literally what I was thinking, those exact words.

seroconversion in March of 2006
positive test May 2006

10/2013: Undetectable, CD4 1000
2009:  Began Atripla

10/2007:  VL 2,300 // no CD4 numbers! :-(
09/2007:  Begin Truvada/Reyataz/Norvir
08/2007:  VL 824,000 // CD4 344 // 21%
06/2007:  VL 326,000 // CD4 351 // 17%
04/2007:  VL 410,000 // CD4 242 // 26%
06/2006:  VL 444,893 // CD4 479 // 21%
05/2006:  VL >500K    // CD4 402 // 17%

Offline Iggy

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Re: Why feel suicidal?
« Reply #33 on: September 06, 2007, 10:15:14 PM »
Because sometimes we are more human than animal and the basic instinct to survive gets lost in the pursuit of emotional desires.

Offline pozguy75

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Re: Why feel suicidal?
« Reply #34 on: September 07, 2007, 10:42:56 AM »
Because sometimes we are more human than animal and the basic instinct to survive gets lost in the pursuit of emotional desires.

But don't lose sight of the people that love you...no matter how bad things seem...there is someone there to reach out a hand...
Dx 2005
ATRIPLA

Offline komnaes

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Re: Why feel suicidal?
« Reply #35 on: September 10, 2007, 06:26:06 AM »
As cliche and hackneyed as it sounds, I think that depression and low-self-esteem actually contribute to the spread of the disease; the relationship between self-hate and HIV might in fact constitute a 'vicious cycle'.  I am pretty sure in my own case that problems and frustrations in my life, related to my career mainly, led me to kind of give up on myself.  I contemplated suicide A LOT prior to getting infected.  Then I got infected, but my career situation improved -- all at the exact same time.  So it's been weird.  However, yes, in the last several months I have thought of suicide and different ways of doing it. 

But I couldn't actually commit suicide because it would hurt too many people.  If there were a way I could simply 'disappear' without actually having to kill myself, I am sure I wouldn't be here now.  The only reasonable plan I could  come up with for actually committing suicide involved a multi-year project of alienating all of my friends and family, breaking up with my boyfriend, etc., and then kind of just isolating myself so much that when I eventually did it, no one would notice.  Thus, I principally worry about the ethics of suicide and the harm and suffering it would inflict on others.

It is sort of naive to ask, 'Why feel suicidal?'  Surely you understand that there are complex emotional and personal reasons anyone would feel that way.

I think I am spending too much time here, for someone who's just found out his poz status only 5 days ago. But before hopefully taking a break I want to add to this thread.

I cannot agree more with you Koksi - I think frustration, depression, etc are causing too many of us to take risk. I am not trying to justify my past mistakes but I have been thinking back to which point I had started to completely not care about getting infected, and it began at around the time I felt my life was not going anyway - it wasn't exciting anymore; I no longer felt a sense of curiosity about anything, including things that used to interest me intensely; and when I used to get all fired up over some political and philosophical issues and debates in a positive way, I felt only anger.

But then now I realize that if I indeed felt suicidal before, getting infected is probably the stupidest way one can attempt to kill oneself. First, it doesn't really work, does it? If I really was suicidal, I would have ended it in a more decisive manner. So, too late as it's, I now know that I should have been more serious in getting help (I did discussed with a counsellor once, but we didn't pursuit this...) and sorted out all those frustrations before.

I also know now that dealing with my actual health situations in the future (taking meds, side efforts, real symptoms) is only half my problem; right now it's become more critical for me to immediately address those frustrations, anger, lost of direction, etc. I hope I can keep this positive feeling,...

Shaun
Aug 07 Diagnosed
Oct 07 CD4=446(19%) Feb 08 CD4=421(19%)
Jun 08 CD4=325(22%) Jul 08 CD4=301(18%)
Sep 08 CD4=257/VL=75,000 Oct 08 CD4=347(16%)
Dec 08 CD4=270(16%)
Jan 09 CD4=246(13%)/VL=10,000
Feb 09 CD4=233(15%)/VL=13,000
Started meds Sustiva/Epzicom
May 09 CD4=333(24%)/VL=650
Aug 09 CD4=346(24%)/VL=UD
Nov 09 CD4=437(26%)/VL=UD
Feb 10 CD4=471(31%)/VL=UD
June 10 CD4=517 (28%)/VL=UD
Sept 10 CD4=687 (31%)/VL=UD
Jan 11 CD4=557 (30%)/VL=UD
April 11 CD4=569 (32%)/VL=UD
Switched to Epizcom, Reyataz and Norvir
(Interrupted for 2 months with only Epizcom & Reyataz)
July 11 CD=520 (28%)/VL=UD
Oct 11 CD=771 (31%)/VL=UD(<30)
April 12 CD=609 (28%)/VL=UD(<20)
Aug 12 CD=657 (29%)/VL=UD(<20)
Dec 12 CD=532 (31%)/VL=UD(<20)
May 13 CD=567 (31%)/VL=UD(<20)
Jan 14 CD=521 (21%)/VL=UD(<50)

Offline wiser

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Re: Why feel suicidal?
« Reply #36 on: October 21, 2007, 01:19:28 PM »
What a long an full thread! The topic touches so many of us so many ways. Obviously it is the most basic question to ask about not only dealing with HIV but dealing with life period. I am in a cognitve/behavioral rational/emotive therapy mode right now to deal with depression ... about life in general. Rationally, I have absoultely everything to live for and my past life has been full. My reason for contemplating suicide has been that I am feel I have lived my life, done my share for society, achieved my goals ... and I am simply bored and tired. It is not sad or tragic. The biggest thing to hold me back of course is how my death could hurt others. But that is rather simple to overcome. If my death did not take the form of a tragic violent givng up, but appeared as a simple accident, people would be sad but would get over it. I guess that is the "wish I could just disappear" model others have discussed.

The one thing I have not yet tried is an antidepressant to see if my brain chemistry needs a jump start. I would love to continue on liiving in this world and use all the good I have had in the past and the good fortune I have now to share with others who could profit from my gifts.  But despite the rationale analysis that I have everything to live for, and the fact I want to live and continue to contribute and share with others, there is a dead and empty feeling in me that I cannot shake and which seems to creep into my brain and soul more and more. It is like being in quicksand. The more I work to get out of it, the deeper it seems to suck me in

So my search becomes one of ending this horrible growing feeling by disappearing, but doing in a way that will come across as an unfortunate accident rather than a tragedy... like drowning while swimming at a Carribbrean resort.

That is why I feel suicidal.

Offline perspiry

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Re: Why feel suicidal?
« Reply #37 on: October 23, 2007, 10:17:49 AM »
I often wonder why people feel suicidal. I just can't relate.  Depression is one thing, but to kill yourself! Yes, we all wish we don't have this disease, but is HIV horrific enough to end your life??
Justin

Some of us had depression long before HIV so your question seems really to be why we with HIV feel suicidal.

Speaking for myself suicidal urges occur when the pain is too great to bear and has been going on too long.  When one continuously experiences dysphoria and great sadness and cannot shake oneself out of the syndrome the idea one's quality of life is less than desirable often occurs.  As one who believes in euthanasia I reserve the right to end my life when there is no hope for improvement.

Being HIV+ and having AIDS have actually perversely helped my depression.  I refuse to let a virus get the better of me and so far have remained revoltingly healthy and relatively pain-free.  My t cell count has been a mere 269 for about 2 years but as long as no OIs pop up I couldn't care less what it is.   I've entered my 3rd decade with HIV so it's part of my life.  I'm in my 5th decade with depression and it's a far more serious issue.

JA
If I'd been thinking I would have chosen Tangina as my forum moniker.

Offline DCGUY2007

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Re: Why feel suicidal?
« Reply #38 on: October 24, 2007, 12:48:05 AM »
I agree with Melia's comment. I would also ad that EMPATHY goes a long way too:

"Humans are complex creatures with complex lives. One person's molehill can be another's insurmountable Everest. Even without understanding, simple compassion often goes a long way."

Melia

Offline a2z

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Re: Why feel suicidal?
« Reply #39 on: October 26, 2007, 01:27:50 AM »
Quote
I often wonder why people feel suicidal. I just can't relate....I just don't get it.

I won't rehash some of the other points made already, except to comment on my own situation and some coping mechanisms.

I suffer from clinical depression, sleep apnea and not realizing for many years what triggers makes me happy/sad.  Those reasons caused me many suicidal thoughts.

I think what's slightly more important are the reasons I haven't and won't commit suicide.

At present, I do not take anything for the depression.  But I saw a good therapist a few years ago, who set aside conventional religious beliefs and taught me to have self-esteem, apologize far less, and love myself.  I'm still working on the last one and accepting myself as being gay, but I'm getting much closer.

I do treat the sleep apnea, and I awake maybe not feeling super or refreshed, but I wake up far less likely to be suicidal; the thoughts almost always struck me in the morning.
 
I lost one of my best, striaght friends a few years back and realized I would never want to put someone through the shock of a suicide.  My friend died in a work-related accident and the loss of him nearly killed me.  Imagine how I would have felt if he had killed himself, knowing that he couldn't/wouldn't come talk to me.

Oddly enough, a bit of odd logic (or illogic) also has kept me away from the grave.  If things are so bad that you have to kill yourself, then in theory, can't they only get better?

Yet another piece is a movie quote, and I don't remember the EXACT phrasing, but it's from the film S.O.B. with a smoking, heavy-boozing, carousing character referring to himself: "For the last 40 years, day in and day out I've been trying to kill myself and I never felt better... So if you REALLY are going to kill yourself, let me show you ten GREAT ways to do it."  (This one may have gotten me in trouble.)

There are things I haven't done yet.  I want to travel and write music.

Last for me are triggers.  A good job and a reasonable amount of money (and making sure I pay my bills), and a good car -- these things are more important to me than I ever imagined, which makes me a shallow, materialistic, vain bastard  ;D  I have a close circle of friends and don't need much more other than escape into the cinemas and the occasional online poker game beyond that.  Of course, everyone's mileage will vary.

(It also doesn't hurt that I have a group life insurance policy that would pay my parents and best friend a reasonable sum.  Suicide nullifies any payout.)

Now is there a situation where I would kill myself in?  I can only think of one where I MIGHT do that, and that is if I lost the quality of my life (I'm talking physically here, I dealt with a crappy car for MANY years) and had no reasonable, or semi-unreasonable, chance of recovering.

Yeah, the demons do roar some days.  And I can understand why someone can and would succumb to them.  But mine are chained  up pretty tight; they're just scary is all.



Dates are blood draw dates:
09/21/09: CD 898 27.0% VL 120 - back on track, same meds.High level enzymes, but less so
06/15/09: CD4 478 21.8% VL 1150 - high liver enzymes... looks like I may not be resistant
05/22/09: Fixed insurance, resumed medicine
04/17/09: Ran out of medicine, could not resolve insurance problems
04/01/09: CD4 773 28% VL 120 - high liver enzymes
12/01/08: CD4 514 23% VL 630
10/17/08 started Reyataz, Norvir and Truvada. -- possibly minor neuropathy, but otherwise okay.
9/10/08: CD4 345 17%, VL > 78K
8/18/08: CD4 312 18%, VL > 60K (considering meds)
12/19/07: CD4 550 28% VL > 100K (no meds yet)
Diagnosed 10/23/07

Offline joemutt

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Re: Why feel suicidal?
« Reply #40 on: October 26, 2007, 08:43:00 AM »
Well, the people most qualified to answer OP's sunshine-question
are unfortunately no longer here. I suspect many of them
could have given you a totally acceptable answer.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2007, 08:50:23 AM by joemutt »

Offline heartforyou

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  • I must be a survivor in many ways...
Re: Why feel suicidal?
« Reply #41 on: December 15, 2007, 03:04:19 PM »
Have you ever thought that a biochemical imbalance, can make you so depressed, you can't even consider going on with your life?

Well, When there is no joy left in your life, when you keep loosing people, when you have been positive for over twenty years, there comes a time you simply give up.

It is good to start a thread on this.
I only hope you learned that we are no sissis who (sigh ) can't take life any longer.
We are humans, who simply had too much grief in their lives.
Believe me, I was born a smiler and the most optimistic person.
But suicide is no stranger to me. It is a strange friend, I hope you will never have to meet.

hermie
Diagnosed in 1987 and still kicking
Viread, Kivexa (Epzicom),Viramune once daily

Happiness is the freedom of breathing fresh air every day.

Offline PeteNYNJ

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Re: Why feel suicidal?
« Reply #42 on: December 19, 2007, 11:37:57 AM »
Medications to fix imbalances can also make us feel more suicidal or wanting to hurt ourselves.  I am going through this now, although I am not actively trying to hurt myself.  It is popping into my mind though which is why I am changing my meds tomorrow.

Teenagers have this reaction a lot to certain antidepressants but lack the "life experience" to understand that suicide isn't the answer.

Life experience is not the right term, but my mind is a blank as to what the right term would be - I will edit when I am more clear headed.

Pete

Offline sally

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Re: Why feel suicidal?
« Reply #43 on: December 20, 2007, 01:59:26 PM »
Dear Pollyanna,

Severe clinical depression and other disorders, which often cause suicidal thoughts, are brain diseases. You've obviously never experienced a brain disease that causes suicidal thoughts or you wouldn't view serious suicidal ideation as a choice. I take drugs to help control HIV as well as HIV-caused problems, which include kidney disease, portal hypertension, and colitis. I also take drugs to help control my brain disease. Unfortunately, the drugs don't always do the trick because I have what's called treatment-resistant depression.

If you think your perky, upbeat attitude can cure brain disease and, thus, suicidal thoughts, I sure wish my grandfather, who committed suicide, had known your "secret." I'll pass it on to my two close relatives who are struggling with schizophrenia.

By the way, I don't have suicidal thoughts because I've had AIDS for 25 years. Most people with severe diseases don't commit suicide. Unfortunately, some people with severe diseases also have concomitant brain disease. Sometimes the underlying disease causes the brain disease, but sometimes it's just another disease one happens to have.

People with suicidal thoughts need excellent medical attention, not platitudes and perky "pull yourself up by our bootstraps" lectures from people who don't know what they're talking about.

Offline LordBerners

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Re: Why feel suicidal?
« Reply #44 on: January 29, 2008, 03:04:16 AM »
Suicide is a perfectly reasonable and effective way of dealing with certain problems,  but unfortunately it is labeled as 'wrong' or 'abnormal' by our moralistic society.

HIV is a good example of an ailment which might lead to conditions where suicide would be warranted, but many other examples exist, such as cancer.  Even just getting extremely old removes most quality of life.  Life almost always ends badly and painfully, but obviously it needn't be so.  The religious/moralists just impose that suffering upon us through the legal system.

I like to imagine a world where euthanasia centers would be available to all citizens.  Meantime, the DIY options remaining in our police state are not so pretty, comfortable, or reliabe.
Please, just call me Berners.. or Baron.

 


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