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Author Topic: Oral sex and HIV  (Read 21619 times)

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Offline OralFear

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Oral sex and HIV
« on: July 19, 2007, 05:31:48 AM »
I wonder if anyone can give me their opinion on my exposure and if you think I need to have an HIV test.  I want to know if oral sex between two woman is risky for HIV transmission?  This girl that I've been seeing for a couple of months now has informed me that she's actually been with a couple of men too.  The only thing we did when we were together was have oral sex - both giving and receiving.  Is this what they call a risky activity?  I've heard so many conflicting reports that yes it is and no it isn't.
We were both not menstrating at that point in time, so there was no blood involved, but what about vaginal fluids - is that not a high risk?

Offline OralFear

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Oral sex and HIV
« Reply #1 on: July 19, 2007, 05:33:37 AM »
I wonder if anyone can give me their opinion on my exposure and if you think I need to have an HIV test.  I want to know if oral sex between two woman is risky for HIV transmission?  This girl that I've been seeing for a couple of months now has informed me that she's actually bi and has had a couple of men too.  The only thing we did when we were together was have oral sex - both giving and receiving.  Is this what they call a risky activity?  I've heard so many conflicting reports that yes it is and no it isn't.
I read on one of the websites about a woman to woman HIV transmission - is this not true?  Isn't a woman's precum also infected if she is HIV positive?
We were both not menstrating at that point in time, so there was no blood involved, but what about vaginal fluids - is that not a high risk?

Offline RapidRod

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Re: Oral sex and HIV
« Reply #2 on: July 19, 2007, 05:44:06 AM »
The one story you read could not be varified and no it is not a risk.

Offline OralFear

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Re: Oral sex and HIV
« Reply #3 on: July 19, 2007, 05:52:38 AM »
Thank you ... I went on to the cdc website and it says that oral sex is a risk - please explain to me what they mean as I've heard so many conflicting reports that I don't know what to believe anymore. 

Offline minhnguyen

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Re: Oral sex and HIV
« Reply #4 on: July 19, 2007, 05:55:56 AM »
Dear OralFear,
You can read this document and know clearly about this issue.
Hope that you'll feel very well after read it.

[attachment deleted by admin]

Offline RapidRod

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Re: Oral sex and HIV
« Reply #5 on: July 19, 2007, 05:59:57 AM »
minh, do not post in any other thread other than your own.

Offline OralFear

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Oral sex and HIV
« Reply #6 on: July 19, 2007, 06:20:53 AM »
Thank you for the information.  It all sounds pretty technically, but what I could understand was this:
Raiteri et al (1994) 18 serodiscordant lesbian couples practising unprotected oral sex studied for 3 months. No seroconversion - There was no risk of transmission
I'm I right in assuming that oral sex between two woman has never happened and not a cause for concern?  If it was to be transmitted between two woman .... how could and would this happen?
Sorry, but I'm quiet naive when it comes to HIV and how it is transmitted.


Offline Ann

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Re: Oral sex and HIV
« Reply #7 on: July 19, 2007, 06:46:35 AM »
OF,

I've merged your new thread into your original thread - where you should post all your additional thoughts or questions. It helps us to help you when you keep all your additional thoughts or questions in one thread.

If you need help finding your thread when you come here, click on the "Show own posts" link under your name in the left-hand column of any forum page.

Please also read through the Welcome Thread so you can familiarize yourself with our Forum Posting Guidelines. Thank you for your cooperation.

When hiv is transmitted between two women, it is usually because they've been sharing drug injecting equipment. Don't share needles with your girlfriend and you'll be fine.

Hiv is not transmitted through sexual relations between two women.

Ann
Condoms are a girl's best friend

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"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline OralFear

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Re: Oral sex and HIV
« Reply #8 on: July 19, 2007, 07:07:39 AM »
Thank you Ann about merging my threads and your help.  So, basically what you're saying is that HIV through oral sex isn't possible between two woman?  If it were to happen, please explain to me how it does?  Sorry, but trying to keep myself safe and really quite naive about HIV and it's transmissions, symptoms ... etc.

Offline RapidRod

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Re: Oral sex and HIV
« Reply #9 on: July 19, 2007, 07:19:09 AM »
Reread Ann's reply again. She states how it can happen.

Offline OralFear

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Re: Oral sex and HIV
« Reply #10 on: July 19, 2007, 09:50:31 AM »
WELL .... I don't do drugs, so what you're saying is that all should be okay and there is no need for me to get an HIV test?  If it ever happened with a woman - how would it besides sharing needles?


Offline RapidRod

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Re: Oral sex and HIV
« Reply #11 on: July 19, 2007, 10:23:52 AM »
Reread Ann's reply again.

Offline OralFear

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Re: Oral sex and HIV
« Reply #12 on: July 19, 2007, 10:52:56 AM »
I have read it RapidRod, but I know there are alot of lesbian's out there that are HIV positive.  What I want to know besides injecting themselves with needles .... how else do they become infected?  You mean to tell me that if we're both not using drugs - there is no possible way for us to contract HIV?

Offline RapidRod

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Re: Oral sex and HIV
« Reply #13 on: July 19, 2007, 10:58:01 AM »
Then your lesbian friends are shacking it with the males also. Even if you lesbian friend was positive you would not contract it unless as Ann has said, "Used IV drugs together using the same works."

Online Andy Velez

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Re: Oral sex and HIV
« Reply #14 on: July 19, 2007, 11:23:21 AM »
Oral, I always look askance at undocumented statements like "there are a lot of lesbians out there who are HIV+."

What has been shown repeatedly is that most commonly lesbians who are HIV+ and are not IV drug users, have become infected through unprotected intercourse with men. While theoretically HIV could be transmitted say during oral sex while an HIV+ female is menstruating or otherwise bleeding, in the real world of HIV science it just doesn't happen that way.

You are working your nerves needlessly over this issue is how I see it.

Cheers, 
Andy Velez

Offline OralFear

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Re: Oral sex and HIV
« Reply #15 on: July 20, 2007, 02:03:09 AM »
Thank you Andy and RapidRod for your comments ... It does make me feel alot better!  Safe to say, but none of us were menstruating at that point in time and 'bleeding' - not sure what you meant by that?
What about having oral sex with dental problems ... is that not a need of concern?  I couple of days before I had root canel treatment, so my mouth wasn't in the greatest of condition.  Would that change things? 

Offline Ann

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Re: Oral sex and HIV
« Reply #16 on: July 20, 2007, 06:56:29 AM »
OF,

If there were situations where cunnilingus was a risk, we'd tell you. Cunnilingus is NOT a risk for hiv infection, period, end of story.

I deleted the two posts you made in a thread in one of the "positive people only" forums. Make sure you read the Welcome Thread found at the top of this forum and take heed of our forum posting guidelines. If you persist in posting in other forums, you will be given a time out.

Ann

PS - and by the way, I don't know where you're getting this information about "a lot" of lesbians being hiv positive. Lesbians have the LOWEST number of hiv infections in any demographic group.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2007, 06:58:22 AM by Ann »
Condoms are a girl's best friend

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"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline OralFear

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Re: Oral sex and HIV
« Reply #17 on: July 20, 2007, 07:02:12 AM »
Hi Ann, I do apologise but didn't understand the 'terms and conditions' - will ensure not to post anymore threads there.

Can I ask you something Ann .... have you got any medical expierence, facts and knowledge about HIV and the way it's transmitted? 

You say ... If there were situations where cunnilingus was a risk, we'd tell you. - please elaborate

Thank you

Offline Ann

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Re: Oral sex and HIV
« Reply #18 on: July 20, 2007, 07:12:10 AM »
OF,

As a person living with hiv myself, I have carefully researched the subject of hiv transmission because I want to make sure that my virus stops with me.

My hiv negative partner and I have been together for eight years and yet he remains hiv negative. I don't just talk the talk about transmission, I walk the walk too - and so does my partner. We have full sex life and the only precaution we take is to use condoms for intercourse.

How can I elaborate on a simple statement? If there were situations in which cunnilingus were a risk, we'd tell you. Cunnilingus is not a risk for hiv infection, no matter what sort of spin you want to put on it.

Ann
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline OralFear

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Re: Oral sex and HIV
« Reply #19 on: July 20, 2007, 07:15:56 AM »
Ann, I want to thank you from the bottom of my heart!!!
You've not only put my mind to rest but hopefully I can get on with my life now and protect myself with what you have taught me.  My thoughts, prayers and heart are with you - keeping smilling and encouraging people because without you ... we'd all be booked into a mental hospital.


Offline OralFear

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Re: Oral sex and HIV
« Reply #20 on: July 22, 2007, 02:46:17 AM »
PLEASE GUYS I NEED YOUR HELP ON THIS ONE!  THIS IS WHAT ANDY'S RESPONSE TO ME WHY ... IS THIS TRUE?

Hi OralFear,,

Im sorry for contactibg you in this way but I understand what you are going through because of the lack of official stats relating to HIV transmission through oral sex.

What I can say is that I am appalled at some of the responces and will be making my own views very clear indeed.

Firstly, if you are worried about contracting this virus you should get tested , it really is as simple as that, especialy because you have stated that your partner has admitted to seeing men as well. Secondly, I will tell you that just because there are very dubious stats regarding HIV transmission through Oral sex IT DOES HAPPEN. Yes the risks are very low and but there are risks and I can say this because I know.

I was infected by performing oral sex on my g/f at the time. The things we did not know about are the things we did not know about.

We used to "freshen up" beforte sex, we would both brush our teeth, and all that, now as you know if your brush to hard, your gums can bleed, also, we found that the way that oral sex is carried out can have an impact,, as can the level of virus in the partners blood at the time, my g/f had a high viral load at the time, and because im not fussy about getting a mouth full (sorry for the crudeness) the oppertunities for infection are there.

I hope that you understand what Im saying, PLEASE take what is said in these forums as advice, as far as Im aware, no one in here is a trained HIV specialist, so why certain people are saying it cannot be caught from "going down" on a female amazes me.

I was diagnosed in 2005 and I can say for sure that this is the way I caught it because I knew my g/f was poz at the time and we made every effort in what we knew to practise safe sex. I NEVER PENETRATED HER WITHOUT A CONDOM.

Please see your doctor and get tested, once tested you should be offered councilling this is the time to ask any question you may have and the experts will be able to tell you the reality of your question, "risky" yes, but very very low, but still possible.

I hope I havent scared you with this mail but i would rather you knew that it is possible from some one who knows. ANYONE  that says NO  it cant be passed that way is wrong.

If you want to chat more please just get in touch,, all the best

Andy


Offline RapidRod

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Re: Oral sex and HIV
« Reply #21 on: July 22, 2007, 02:57:16 AM »
He says he's infected. How he got infected is questionable at the most. He can say what he wants. But scientific studies refutes him. We apply information based on scientific studies, not peer review.

Offline Ann

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Re: Oral sex and HIV
« Reply #22 on: July 22, 2007, 05:46:00 AM »
OF,

There is one thing this Andy person is correct about - if you have doubts about your hiv status, then test. We've told you this already.

What we don't know about Andy is - he may have had protected intercourse with this particular girlfriend, but has he always had protected intercourse every time in his life, with every person? I'm betting the answer to that is NO.

I'm sure he probably truly believes he was infected this way, but as Rodney says, the documented science doesn't support his claim.

Ann
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline OralFear

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Re: Oral sex and HIV
« Reply #23 on: July 23, 2007, 01:59:24 AM »
Hi Teak and Ann,
I suppose he could say that he was infected this way as many people don't only practice oral sex but have intercourse too.  I'm hoping that this isn't the reason why he got infected and I can put my mind to rest and believe that I'm safe in what I did.  Are there any documented cases of HIV infection via oral sex that you know of?

Offline Ann

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Re: Oral sex and HIV
« Reply #24 on: July 23, 2007, 05:43:58 AM »
OF,

Not when the oral sex being discussed is cunnilingus. There have been cases in the past where this is what was claimed, but it always turned out that there were other factors involved - such as unprotected intercourse or needle sharing - that the person didn't admit to at first. There has never, in over 25 years of this pandemic, been a case where cunnilingus was proven to be the transmission route. Not one.

Ann
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline OralFear

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Re: Oral sex and HIV
« Reply #25 on: July 23, 2007, 06:05:43 AM »
It's really sad in a way that people are not truly honest about how they actually contracted HIV .... it gives us false hope and untrue figures.  He really gave me quite a scare and made me doubt everyones ability and information here on Medhelp and Aidsmeds.  Basically what you're saying Ann is that there is no reason for me to pursue this matter any longer as my risk for contracting HIV from one sexual encounter with another woman is not risky at all and no need for me to test?  I've never used drugs and I've never had unprotected intercourse (only oral) with this lady.  Do you think it's safe to say that I'm in the clear?

Offline Ann

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Re: Oral sex and HIV
« Reply #26 on: July 23, 2007, 06:11:34 AM »
OF,

Yes, that's what we've all been telling you for days now.

The bottom line is that if you cannot bring yourself to believe us, test, collect your negative result, and move on with your life.

Ann
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline OralFear

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Re: Oral sex and HIV
« Reply #27 on: July 23, 2007, 07:37:01 AM »
A BIG THANK YOU Ann and I'm sorry if I kept going on about this and if I've been an absolute pain of myself!  Will try and get through this and get on with my life.
Take care and God Bless you for all the wonderful work and advice you're giving.

Online Andy Velez

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Re: Oral sex and HIV
« Reply #28 on: July 23, 2007, 09:06:24 AM »
Just for clarification for yourself and for other readers, the Andy who inappropriately pm'd you with that alarming and questionable "information" is Andy 101 and not me.

Thought I ought to post this just to avoid any confusion. I fully support Ann's comments to you and I don't see any sound basis in HIV science for you to be further concerned at this time.

Cheers, 
« Last Edit: July 23, 2007, 09:08:18 AM by Andy Velez »
Andy Velez

Offline OralFear

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Re: Oral sex and HIV
« Reply #29 on: July 23, 2007, 10:01:48 AM »
Hi Andy .... no problem as I did realise it wasn't you and this message from the other 'Andy' come through to me as a PM.  Not sure why he even did that - maybe he's too scared to be questioned on how he actually contracted HIV and just wanted to scare the living daylights out of me - which he did!  I'm hoping what you and Ann have told me is your honest to goodness truth and that I can finally put this nightmare behind me and not even worry about getting tested.  Do you think this is what it boils down too - anxiety and nothing else?

Offline Ann

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Re: Oral sex and HIV
« Reply #30 on: July 24, 2007, 07:57:54 AM »
OF,

Anxiety can cause a person all sorts of problems. You might want to consider counseling so you can learn ways of managing your anxiety levels.

If it takes getting tested to put this to rest, then go ahead and test, collect your negative result and move on. Any sexually active adult should be tested as a matter of ROUTINE anyway. I fully expect your test to return negative results, should you decide to test.

Ann
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline OralFear

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Re: Oral sex and HIV
« Reply #31 on: July 24, 2007, 10:38:20 AM »
Thank you Ann.  I'm sure this is all part of the anxiety and worry that is building up inside me.  From the advice that you and Andy have given me, I'm not even going to bother testing - afterall you said that there is no risk involved with oral sex between woman.  I need to put this behind me, get on with life and just enjoy what I have at the moment.  Thank you both for all your time, patience and help.

Offline OralFear

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Re: Oral sex and HIV
« Reply #32 on: July 26, 2007, 09:46:43 AM »
NOW I'M REALLY CONFUSED!!  This is the report back I got from the CDC on oral sex and HIV transmission.  I thought they were the experts on HIV and transmission but everyone here keeps telling me that I've got nothing to worry about.  You're responses would be great!!

Thank you for contacting us with your follow-up questions. 
Yes, it is possible for either partner to become infected with HIV through performing or receiving oral sex. There have been a few cases of HIV transmission from performing oral sex on a person infected with HIV. While no one knows exactly what the degree of risk is, evidence suggests that the risk is less than that of unprotected anal or vaginal sex.  Please see this CDC web site about women who have sex with women and HIV http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/topics/women/resources/factsheets/wsw.htm.

I do not have a medical background.  Please see your doctor about testing.  Here is a good site regarding testing: http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/topics/testing/qa.htm.

Please see our web site, www.cdcnpin.org for further information.  If you have further questions, please contact the CDC Information Line by email at cdcinfo@cdc.gov or by phone at 800-232-4636. 

I hope this is helpful.  Please let me know if I can be of further assistance. 

 

Offline englishgirl

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Re: Oral sex and HIV
« Reply #33 on: July 26, 2007, 11:52:52 AM »
Hi there

If you read the cdc report that the respondent links to you can see it says:
- here are no confirmed cases of female-to-female sexual transmission of HIV in the United States database
- Of the 534 (of 7,381) women who were reported to have had sex only with women, 91% also had another risk factor—typically, injection drug use.
- HIV-infected women whose only initially reported risk factor is sex with women are given high priority for follow-up investigation. As of December 2004, none of these investigations had confirmed female-to-female HIV transmission, either because other risk factors were later identified or because some women declined to be interviewed.
- A study of more than 1 million female blood donors found no HIV-infected women whose only risk factor was sex with women.

the cdc and some doctors are reluctant to say there is 100% no risk because there is a theoretical risk
BUT as you can see they also say that there has been no proven cases - ie in all cases that we no about so far there has been no contraction of hiv in this manner

as an hiv positive woman who cannot face the idea of never receiving oral sex again i asked my hiv doctor the specific question because if there is any risk involved i would not want to put someone at risk. my doctor assured me that i was not putting anyone at risk & showed me medical stats to prove it. furthermore, she stated that at my hospital (dont know about nationwide) someone who asked for PEP due to the fact that they had gone down on a (non-menstruating) poz woman such as myself would not be given it by them due to the fact that the hiv doctors there believe there is not a risk

please feel reassured that you are not at risk

best wishes
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Offline Ann

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Re: Oral sex and HIV
« Reply #34 on: July 26, 2007, 11:54:20 AM »
OF,

That fact sheet you've been linked to tells you that there have not been any confirmed cases, just like we've told you. It goes on to say that there's always been other risk factors involved, just like we've told you.

One thing you need to remember when dealing with the CDC is that they are part of the US government - the same government that puts more money into the discredited Abstinence Only programs than it does proven methods of hiv prevention. The US government doesn't want anyone having sex with anyone outside a traditional, heterosexual marriage. Their information has an anti-homosexual bias and if it takes scare-tactics and fear-mongering to further their moralistic agenda, then that's what they do.

We don't moralise here. We don't have a religious or moralistic agenda. We give you the scientific facts and the facts only.

I'll say it one more time - if you cannot bring yourself to believe us, go test and collect your negative result if that's what it will take for you to believe you have not been at risk.

Ann
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"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline OralFear

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Re: Oral sex and HIV
« Reply #35 on: July 26, 2007, 02:16:19 PM »
Thank you Englishgirl and Ann .... I really started getting worried and thinking 'just maybe' I've contracted HIV!  I'm sure they have to say that to cover all their bases.  Are you in agreement with everyone else that there is absolutly nothing to worry about regarding transmission of HIV between two women - as there was no blood involved and I was more on the receiving end?

ENGLISHGIRL .... I really want to thank you for taking the time to write to me and helping me understand more about oral sex between two women and the 'risk' of HIV transmission.  It really means alot to me and I want to thank you from the bottom of my heart!  God Bless you!

Offline OralFear

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Re: Oral sex and HIV
« Reply #36 on: July 27, 2007, 02:18:20 AM »
Thank you all for your kind words, compassion and reassurance you have all shown me.  It really is quite difficult when you get conflicting reports like this one saying on one hand yes it is risky and on another hand no it isn't risky like the post I received from Andy (and no it wasn't Andy Velez)  He's been absolutly wonderful and has not only been very caring, but understanding man too.  I know deep down, I'm probably not infected by HIV and then this creeps into my head when someone as cruel posts these comments to me.  You just don't know who to believe.  I know this statistics are from the USA, but what about South Africa, as that is where I'm from?  I suppose the guilt is making me feel even worse and maybe I should just go and have the test done, put this all behind me as a fantasy I've lived out and enjoy my life.  Rapirod, I read the fact sheet that you Jaguar83, but it also states that HIV transmission through woman is more risky if they're injecting drugs, so if I've never done anything like this before then obviously I should be okay? 

This is what someone posted to me by englishgirl:
If you read the cdc report that the respondent links to you can see it says:
- here are no confirmed cases of female-to-female sexual transmission of HIV in the United States database
- Of the 534 (of 7,381) women who were reported to have had sex only with women, 91% also had another risk factor—typically, injection drug use.

Englishgirl, I want to thank you for your post - it not only reassured me that I've got nothing to worry about but made me see things in a different light.  You always think your situation is alot worse then everyone else until you read someone that is going through it at the moment and is still managing to bring a smile to someone's face!  If you don't mind me asking, but how did you contract HIV?  My thoughts, prayers are with you and I want to thank you from the bottom of my heart!  I hope you find someone as special as you are!

I really do value all of your comments - helps me sleep easier at night!
A BIG THANK YOU TO YOU ALL!

Offline Ann

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Re: Oral sex and HIV
« Reply #37 on: July 27, 2007, 05:44:44 AM »
OF,

It's rude to ask people how they became infected. It's nobody's business but their own and if they want to volunteer the information, that's one thing, but don't ask. Like I said, it's rude.

The science of hiv transmission does not change from place to place. It's the same the world over - unprotected anal or vaginal intercourse or sharing drug injecting equipment with someone who is hiv positive. Period. End of story.

If you've read the Welcome Thread like you're supposed to, you would have read the following:

Quote
Anyone who continues to post excessively, questioning a conclusive negative result or no-risk situation, will be subject to a four week Time Out (a temporary ban from the Forums). The purpose of a Time Out is to encourage you to seek the face-to-face help we cannot provide on this forum.

Please consider yourself warned. We've repeatedly given you the facts, now it's your turn to deal with them. We cannot do anything more for you here.

Ann
Condoms are a girl's best friend

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"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline OralFear

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Re: Oral sex and HIV
« Reply #38 on: July 27, 2007, 06:06:25 AM »
Hello Ann .... first of all I don't think I was being rude but rather curious as I would like to try and get to know all about HIV, etc as to protect myself and if 'Andy' informed me that this is how he got infected then I'd like to know.  If englishgirl thought I was rude, then I do apologise as it was not my intention!  I've read the Welcome thread over and over again and no where does it state that oral sex is 'safe sex'.  The questions that I pose here are all related to what I've been asked and told, but then someone pipes up with different views and explanations - I'm not sure who to believe any longer.  I think you're absolutly right - the only way is for me to get tested and get on with life!!

Online Andy Velez

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Re: Oral sex and HIV
« Reply #39 on: July 27, 2007, 08:25:05 AM »
There is no such thing as absolutely 100% "safe sex" other than with your own hand. Anytime you have sex with another person there MIGHT be some risk. Theoretically. But in the real world of HIV we know that the essential issue is unprotected vaginal or anal intercourse.

The kind of "curiousity" you're exhibiting about HIV is not about learning. It's about obsessively feeding your fears and leads to nothing good. You've been given solid and straightforward information about transmission.

It's time for you to stop surfing the net for more (dis)information to feed your anxieties. Along with getting tested just to collect the inevitable negative result, if you can't stop this handwringing then I suggest it is time to talk with a counselor or other mental health professional to get support in dealing with what is about feelings and not HIV facts.
 
Andy Velez

Offline OralFear

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Re: Oral sex and HIV
« Reply #40 on: July 27, 2007, 09:16:14 AM »
I suppose you're right.  As soon as I can get a chance and when I find out where the nearest testing centre is ... I'm going to have the test done and get on with life either which way!  I know it's not good for me to keep surfing the net for documented and transmissions of HIV and it's also taken up too much of my valuable time too!  I'm hoping to God that all is okay and that there was nothing to worry about and the advise you've all given me is the honest to goodness truth!  Thank you all for your understanding and I'm sorry if I was a pain in the butt!

Offline Worried Soul

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Worried Soul!
« Reply #41 on: October 01, 2007, 06:48:38 AM »
I'm going out of my mind with worry and would really appreciate any expert advice!
I've been seeing my girlfriend for 6 months now and she has just informed me that she's HIV positive.
Since we are both females, I've only ever engaged in oral sex - both receiving and giving.  I've spent hours researching every website pertaining to oral sex and HIV and they keep saying that it's a 'risky activity' even among Lesbians.  I've never noticed any unusual lumps, bumps, discharge or been exposed to blood.  Only ever had oral sex and never used sexual toys.

Do you think this would warrant me having an HIV test done to determine if she's infected me too? 
I still live at home and my parents would be heart broken if I came to them with something like this.
PLEASE ..... help me!

Offline jkinatl2

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Re: Worried Soul!
« Reply #42 on: October 01, 2007, 06:59:24 AM »
cunnilingus is not a risk for HIV infections. In the history ofthe pandemic, the only group markedly absent from infection have been lesbians. I urge you to read the LESSONS section, as this is explained in great detail.

"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

Welcome Thread

Offline Worried Soul

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Re: Worried Soul!
« Reply #43 on: October 01, 2007, 07:13:08 AM »
Thank you for your prompt reply, but this is the what I've read on the cdc website and the 'lessons' on this website, so I'm a little confused as it doesn't really go into much detail about cunnilingus, lesbians and HIV transmissions.

Yes, it is possible for either partner to become infected with HIV through performing or receiving oral sex. There have been a few cases of HIV transmission from performing oral sex on a person infected with HIV. While no one knows exactly what the degree of risk is, evidence suggests that the risk is less than that of unprotected anal or vaginal sex.

If the person performing oral sex has HIV, blood from their mouth may enter the body of the person receiving oral sex through
the lining of the urethra (the opening at the tip of the penis);
the lining of the vagina or cervix;
the lining of the anus; or
directly into the body through small cuts or open sores.
If the person receiving oral sex has HIV, their blood, semen (cum), pre-seminal fluid (pre-cum), or vaginal fluid may contain the virus. Cells lining the mouth of the person performing oral sex may allow HIV to enter their body.

The risk of HIV transmission increases

if the person performing oral sex has cuts or sores around or in their mouth or throat;
if the person receiving oral sex ejaculates in the mouth of the person performing oral sex; or
if the person receiving oral sex has another sexually transmitted disease (STD).
Not having (abstaining from) sex is the most effective way to avoid HIV.


So you can't really say that it's not 'a risk for HIV infection' can you?  There are so many debates on this subject that you don't really know what to believe anymore.  I've always practised 'safe sex' but now I'm really worried that oral sex is something I should be concerned about and especially now that I've learnt she's positive.


Offline Ann

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Re: Worried Soul!
« Reply #44 on: October 01, 2007, 07:36:36 AM »
Worried,

Hiv transmission doesn't stand a chance of happening via female genitals to mouth - there are just too many obstacles on the oral route.

The first obstacle is the mouth itself. The mouth is a veritable fortress, standing against all sorts of pathogens we come into contact with every minute of our lives. It's a very hostile environment and saliva has been shown to contain over a dozen different proteins and enzymes that damage hiv.

Hiv is a very fragile virus - literally. Its outer surface doesn't take kindly to changes in its preferred environment; slight changes in temperature, moisture content and pH levels all damage the outer surface. Importantly, it needs this outer surface to be intact before it can latch onto a few, very specific cell types and infect. 

Which leads to the second obstacle. Hiv can only latch onto certain types of cells, cells which are not found in abundance in the mouth.

The third obstacle to transmission this way is having hiv present in the first place. The female secretion where hiv has been shown to be present is the cervicovaginal fluid. This fluid is actually a thick mucus that covers and protects the cervix.

The fluid a woman produces when sexually excited comes from the Bartholin's glands, located on either side of the vaginal opening. I have yet to discover one shred of evidence (and believe me, I've looked) that shows this lubricating fluid to have any more hiv present than other bodily secretions such as saliva, sweat or tears. Saliva, sweat and tears are NOT infectious fluids.

So there you have it. Once the results of the serodiscordant studies started rolling in, what we know about hiv transmission on the cellular level was validated. The only people who were getting infected were those who had unprotected anal or vaginal intercourse. Period. One of the three studies went on for ten years and involved hundreds of couples. That's a lot of nookie.

Ann
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"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline Worried Soul

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Re: Worried Soul!
« Reply #45 on: October 01, 2007, 07:57:09 AM »
Thank you Ann for your comments .. it really does help to have such researched advise.
As I'm sure the virus is fragile and doesn't really withstand living outside the body, but if I had mouth problems prior to preforming oral sex on my girlfriend, would this not complicate matters and increase the risk of infection? 

I know you also mentioned
The female secretion where hiv has been shown to be present is the cervicovaginal fluid. This fluid is actually a thick mucus that covers and protects the cervix.

Is it safe to say that this fluid is so far up in the vagina that it could not possible be transmitted while preforming oral sex on her?  Are there any other fluids that could infect me besides this?  I really need to try and understand how, why and where this all stems from!

This is what I read on the 'Doctors Lounge' Website:
The risk of HIV and other sexually transmitted disease through oral sex is reported by many.

Certain practices are suggested to reduce the risk of infection through oral sex. For example physical barriers (like plastic food wrap, a condom cut open, or a dental dam) can prevent transmission of HIV and other STDs


I feel as if I have no where else to turn so I would really appreciate any advise you can give me!!

Offline Ann

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Re: Worried Soul!
« Reply #46 on: October 01, 2007, 08:16:06 AM »
Worried,

Can I ask why you are using different usernames while posting to our forums? Thus far, you have also used OralFear

Please realize that this kind of activity is disrespectful of other forum members, as well as our moderators. People spend a considerable amount of time helping others in these forums. Using multiple accounts is at the very least annoying, if not deceiving and disrespectful of others. It is also against our Terms of Membership which you agreed to when you became a member. This information is also contained within the Welcome Thread, which you should have read by now. So really, you have no excuse.

You must realize that the answers won't change, no matter how many names you post under.

I would appreciate a reply to this message, and I hope you will commit to using just one account - preferably your original one. If not, you will be banned from further access to the forums.

Ann
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"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline Worried Soul

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Re: Worried Soul!
« Reply #47 on: October 01, 2007, 08:51:35 AM »
I do apologise Ann but I couldn't remember my old password so I had to open another acccount. 
It is by no means intentional or disrespectful but fear that is driving me crazy without any answers.
I've tried to put this behind me but no this old girlfriend has come back to me with this bombshell.
I have no where to turn and every site that I visit gives me the same answers but nothing like yours.
I'm really just trying to get all the facts together to determine if I need to put myself through anymore fear or heartache.

Offline Ann

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Re: Oral sex and HIV
« Reply #48 on: October 01, 2007, 08:56:10 AM »
OF/Worried,

That's no excuse. You should have clicked on the password link available on the log-in page.

I need you to return to your original account, and I'm merging your threads. Your new account will be disabled. If you create another new account, you will be permanently banned.

Ann
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline OralFear

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Oral sex and HIV
« Reply #49 on: October 01, 2007, 09:27:11 AM »
Thank you Ann and once again I apologies if this caused any problems - it certainly wasn't intentional.
Going back to my last question, can you answer this for me as this is what was mentioned on the Lesbian Safer Sex website?

Are Lesbians at Risk for Contracting HIV from Each Other?

Yes!! There have cases reported since the mid 1980's which indicate that women are transmitting HIV (Human Immunodeficiency Virus) to each other.

Despite these reports the Federal Government's Center for Disease Control (CDC) does not include female to female transmission in its AIDS (Acquired Immune Deficiency Syndrome) reports. Many lesbians mistakenly believe that they are not at risk. HIV is transmitted when blood, vaginal fluids, breast milk or semen from an HIV infected person enters your blood stream.

Lesbians can be infected with HIV through having unsafe sex (with women or men), donor insemination, sharing injectable drug works, piercing, tattooing and blood transfusions.

Because we do know how HIV is transmitted we can define some guidelines for safer sex and explain which risky sexual behaviors are potentially risky.

The Basics

Whether a sexual behavior is safe or unsafe depends on the chances of your partner's bodily fluids coming in contact with your blood.

Wet kissing is safer unless either of you have a sore or cut in your mouth or bleeding gums. After you brush your teeth or floss, wait a half an hour before kissing.

Touching your lover's breast, massage, masturbation and body to body rubbing are safer--as long as there is no blood or breast milk exchanged.

Sores or cuts on the fingers, mouth or vagina of either partner can increase risk during vaginal and anal contact. Using a glove can prevent a way for the virus to get into your blood stream.

Unprotected oral sex is risky, especially when your partner has her period or a vaginal infection. To make it safer, cover her genital area (vulva) with a latex dam (also known as a dental dam) or you can cut open a condom to make a barrier. If a woman is infected, her menstrual blood, vaginal secretions and ejaculate will have the virus in it. HIV has been found in these fluids.


The four levels of risk

NOT RISKY

Massage, Hugging, Fantasy, Voyeurism, Exhibitionism, Masturbation, touching yourself, Vibrators or other sex toys, not shared, Dry Kissing, Body To Body Rubbing or "Tribadism" when fluids are not involved

POSSIBLY RISKY

Wet, French Kissing. Shared hand & genital contact with a barrier such as a fingercot, glove, or latex dam, a square piece of latex. Cunnilingus, Oral-Genital contact using a barrier. Fisting using a barrier

PROBABLY RISKY

Shared hand, finger & genital contact with cuts or sores. Cunnilingus, Oral or Tongue to genital contact without a barrier

VERY RISKY

Cunnilingus without a barrier during menstruation. Female or male ejaculate in the mouth, vagina or anus. Rimming without a barrier Fisting without a barrier such as a glove Sharing sex toys without a barrier. Sharing needles of any kind, to shoot drugs, pierce or tattoo the skin

Offline jkinatl2

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Re: Oral sex and HIV
« Reply #50 on: October 01, 2007, 09:41:46 AM »
AIDSMEDS is not in the habit of dissecting other websites' claims. Our risk assessment and transmission vectors LESSONS are culled NOT from third-hand and outdated non-sourced material. Rather, they are built from first-tiered peer-reviewed science. To the best of my understanding, no other website dedicated to HIV infection has gone to that trouble.

There have been no documented cases of female-to-female oral HIV transmission. In every researched claim, there have been other risk factors (i.e. heterosexual sex, sharing IV drug needles) which ARE, in fact, considered high risk activity.

Saliva contains over a dozen compounds which inhibit HIV and render it inert. More to the point, the fluids with which one comes into contact during cunnilingus are not infectious.

I am sorry, but the history of the pandemic shows the lesbian community virtually untouched by HIV. I am also sorry that the site you chose to visit contains inaccurate, unsourced, and outdated information (I recognize much of the wording from safer sex messages from the early 1990s).

You simply do not get HIV from kissing, cunnilingus, or fingering. You simply don't. I will be happy to source my material for you, if reading the scientific basis for these assertions will help.


"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

Welcome Thread

Offline OralFear

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Re: Oral sex and HIV
« Reply #51 on: October 01, 2007, 09:50:11 AM »
THANK YOU Jkinatl2 for your kind words, compassion and information. 
I must admit that reading all this information on other websites is not only confusing, terrifying, conflicting but the positive ones that say it's not 'a risky activity' do help to ease my worries abit.  If you do have any information regarding the transmission routes, cunnilingus, lesbians and facts, I would really appreciate it if you could kindly forward this onto me.
Hopefully then with all the scientific information on hand I can finally put my worries to rest.

I know alot of you probably just saying 'just go and get tested' but it is not as easy as that.

Online Andy Velez

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Re: Oral sex and HIV
« Reply #52 on: October 01, 2007, 10:04:47 AM »
You have all the information that you need. There's really nothing more to be said in that domain.

You're hanging around in the domain of fears and what ifs, a very unhealthy place. Maybe it's time for you to see a mental health professional to get some support with why this has become such a nagging issue for you.

As for testing to resolve any doubts as to your status, you don't have to feel brave or feel anything in particular to get tested. You can go in quaking and terrified and still get it done.

The question for me is how long are you going to indulge in this torturing yourself about this.
Andy Velez

Offline jkinatl2

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Re: Oral sex and HIV
« Reply #53 on: October 01, 2007, 10:25:43 AM »
Due to formatting issues, the only pre-made post I have involves fingering - though it touches on saliva and cunnilingus as well. I shall endeavor to spend some hours this evening rewriting my posts regarding saliva and cunnilingus specifically, as well as seeing what new science is out there.

Here is what seems to be transferring from my desktop to this forum intact. Again, it concentrates on fingering, but leads off into a discussion of HIv transmissin science and the rather specific methods by which HIV infects CD4 cells and specific dendritic cells:

In fingering, only menstrual blood carries any significantly infectious fluids. This is because the vaginal secretions found in the vaginal walls and the opening of the vagina are relatively uninfectious. it is the cervical fluids, deeper in the vaginal area, which pose a greater infectivity risk due to a higher concentration of active HIV.

Note I use the term ACTIVE and not alive. technically, HIV is not alive. It cannot reproduce on it's own. It requires a very specific type of white blood cell to infect with it's genetic material and essentially turn into an HIV producing factory. These receptive cells are commonly found in the urethra, in the dendritic cells under an uncircumsized foreskin, in the anus, and in the vagina. To a far lessor degree, there are some in the tonsil area as well.

So we have established that even if infectious fluids got into a cut in your finger, they would have to travel through your bloodstream and encounter one of these receptive cells. Not as likely event, at all. To the point where forcing it to happen in a lab using monkeys/primates and SHIV is largely unsuccessful. In a petri dish? Perhaps. In a bipedal organism? Difficult, if not impossible to achieve.

Now, about those infectious fluids. You realize that HIV mutates constantly, correct? Part of it's difficulty as regards a cure or vaccine is this constant mutation. Not the sort of mutation that makes a blood-borne pathogen airborne, but one which, in the long run, helps it to survive. HIV wears down an immune system by stimulating an immune response once the host is infected. And the host then produces antibodies, which destroy the viral particles and infected cells that are recognized.

At this point in infection, almost all the HIV is purged temporarily from the blood. However, reservoirs in the brain, organs, and lymphatic system are still there, and they mutate just enough so that the body must re-recognize them and mount another immune defense. This goes on for years and years in most cases, until the ability of the body to mount further defenses is compromised to the point where the immune system basically collapses. During this time, the host is left more and more defenseless against common pathogens, until finally it succumbs, either to an external pathogen or an internal function that an intact immune system would otherwise regulate.

Knowing this, and keeping in mind that the virus constantly mutates, it is not a particularly efficient virus. Most of the mutations are worthless, lacking one protein or another which makes it basically inactive, unviable. It is Darwinism at a miscroscopic scale, and greatly advanced.

See, the perfect HIV, the "goal," if you will, of HIV is to infect a host and reproduce and spread without killing the host. Not due to any altruism on it's part, but a dead host can't infect others. This is why outbreaks of Ebola and Marberg viruses are almost always brief and contained. it would take much engineering to reproduce a species-killer like "The Stand." It would involve a virus behaving in a totally different fashion than any other.

So the odds of an active, VIABLE viral particle finding it's way INTO your bloodstream, finding a receptive white blood cell (dendritic and T cells) and then successfully injecting it with it's genetic material - through a cut in the FINGER which almost instantly seals itself from external danger, and which bombards the area with elements specifically dsigned to protect and heal the skin - is purely in the realm of the theoretical. Why is there so little research? because it can't be forced to happen with any regularity in a lab, in a primate, in a monkey.

It has never been documented to happen. In the real world, the one we live in, it does not happen. It is hell on wheels to even make something like that occur in a carefully monitored laboratory. Even a petri dish is no friend to HIV.

Why do some doctors and scientists still caution? Because people mired in academia are rarely in touch with the actual, quantifiable world. The notion of "theoretical risk" and 'actual risk" are merged into a single hysterical message. There is a theoretical risk that a planet-destroying asteroid will smash the earth. There is a theoretical risk that our sun will explode. I think you get my intent here.

Let me recap:

Vaginal secretions: extremely unlikely to infect even if exposed to dendritic cells. Thus, cunnilingus is not considered a viable HIV risk.

Fingers: self sealing, and not containing receptive cells which HIV needs in order to infect.

Brothel: in western and industrialized nations, sex workers have a relatively low HIv rate compared to sex workers in Africa and other industrialized nations. However, even an HIv positive female is not going to have enough active viral particles in her vaginal secretions to present a risk to a finger or a tongue.

Fingering is not a risk for HIV, and PEP/testing is not warranted for such an activity.

That's not me talking, it's the science and the epidemiology talking.

Sources:

http://www.aegis.com/news/ads/1988/ad880100.html

http://www.aegis.com/aidsline/1990/may/m9050993.html

http://www.aegis.com/conferences/iac/2002/thpec7405.html



I try to stay away from studies which rely solely on post-infection patient reports. They are notoriously unreliable, and even with multiple screenings and interview, the science is not solid. I also try to keep my patient-tracking study to within the last ten to fifteen years (as in the case of the Romero Study, where a ten year period of time was used to track serodiscordant couples). HIV transmission science is relatively new, and the means and methodology by which we are able to pinpoint what does and does not cause HIV infection was ONLY made possible by the advent of the protease inhibitor breakthrough in the mid-1990s. Prior to that, people simply did not remain healthy, and sexually active long enough post diagnosis to form a long term study.

However, I do not hesitate to use laboratory-based findings from the late 1980s and 1990s. The science which illuminated the inhibitory elements in saliva, for example, have been clarified since the original studies were published. But the initial science was sound. I am certain that as time goes on, further clarification will reinforce these initial studies.

I know that Ann has at her disposal reams of documentation regarding the female anatomy, and the specific types of fluids which are considered infectious (and why). I shall endeavor in the future to fill in my own gaps in knowledge insofar as this is concerned.

The serodiscordant studies I referenced are as follows:

http://gateway.nlm.nih.gov/MeetingAbstracts/102255339.html

An exerpt from the paper:

<<Page-Shafer et al., 1997; Vittinghoff et al., 1999; Celum et al., 2001). Keet et al.(1992) found that more than half of incident HIV infections attributed to receptive oral sex (fellatio) were misattributed due to response bias, wherein a high proportion of study participants did not report anogenital sex in written questionnaires, but later did report this practice in face-to-face interviews, leading researchers to conclude that oral acquisition of HIV occurs, but its frequency may be overestimated because of reluctance to report more stigmatized practices, including anal sex. Two more recent studies underscore the very low infectivity of HIV in association with oral sex in heterosexual and MSM populations. In a longitudinal study of serodiscordant heterosexual couples, del Romero et al.(2002) found no incident HIV infections in over 19,000 unprotected orogenital contacts with an HIV-infected partner. In a study of MSM HIV testers in San Francisco who practiced only oral sex (Page-Shafer et al., 2002), no prevalent or incident HIV infections were detected in an estimated 1519 person-years of risk exposure (Balls et al., 2004).>>

source:

http://adr.iadrjournals.org/cgi/content/full/19/1/152

Also:

http://lib.bioinfo.pl/pmid:16700731

http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/mksg/odi/2006/00000012/00000003/art00002


You will note that almost ALL of the oral sex transmission studies have focused on fellatio, specifically receptive fellatio (swallowing seme) - though not to the exclusion of cunnilingus. The reason being, there is simply NO documentation which suggests that cunnilingus is a viable HIv transmission vector. And the absolute dearth of subjects to study makes such specific experiments nearly impossible.

I do not know if all this is too much information. And I do not know if even armed with the science, your fears will be assuaged, Fear, I note, is immune to reason in many cases. However, the science is all I have to work with.


"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

Welcome Thread

Offline OralFear

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Re: Oral sex and HIV
« Reply #54 on: October 01, 2007, 10:28:41 AM »
I know Andy this is something that is worrying me to no end and the more I keep telling myself that I have nothing to worry about .... the more I think about it.  I have good days and bad days, where I go for months not thinking about it and trying to live a normal, healthy mind life and then something crops up and all the emotions are relived again.  

I know you have all given me the facts and tried to put my mind to rest, but the more I can get the more I find live just a little easier to live with.  I keep checking my body every day for new marks, blemishes and any weird symtoms and pray each day that God will bless me with more time!

Offline OralFear

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Re: Oral sex and HIV
« Reply #55 on: October 01, 2007, 10:36:23 AM »
jkinatl2, you are an absolute gem and if I lived closer to you .... I'd give you a big hug of appreciation for taking your valuable time to help me out and educate me with the forms and means of transmission.

I've printed out each page and I'm going to be reading it really carefully.  Would you mind if I made contact with you to discuss things as my HIV knowledge (which I'm sure you've seen) isn't too clear on the finer details of the female anatomy, etc?
Here's blowing you a big kiss of appreciation and thanking you from the bottom of my heart! 

Offline jkinatl2

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Re: Oral sex and HIV
« Reply #56 on: October 01, 2007, 10:44:40 AM »
I am glad this has been of some help.

Honestly, I seem to have exhausted my knowledge of the female anatomy insofar as HIv transmission is concerned. I have also, it would appear, come close to exhausting the available science as regards female-female HIv transmission. Reason being, there are simply no firmly documented cases in which the methodology of post-infection patient report analysis were not utilized.

 Ann really is the expert on this topic, as it was she who informed me about the Bartholin's Gland versus the deeper cervical fluids insofar as infectivity is concerned. When and if I manage to find new information, I shall endeavor (after running it by Ann/Andy/Tim/Annie et al) to post it. I doubt there will be very much more reliable, recent information. But I will continue to look, and post where/when appropriate.

And I apologise to those who access this forum via dial-up connection. My post was obscenely long. If desired, I will trim or edit it, or chop it into bits.



"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

Welcome Thread

Offline Ann

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Re: Oral sex and HIV
« Reply #57 on: October 01, 2007, 10:49:17 AM »
OF,

You already HAVE made contact with Jonathan right here in this forum and right here in this forum is where your contact should remain. There is no reason to take your discussion off-forum as its presence here will help others.

And just to remind you of something I told you a couple months ago, I don't just talk about safer sex and hiv, I practice what I preach too. If there were any chance that cunnilingus were a risk factor for hiv infection, I would not engage in this practice with my partner. We've been together over eight years and he remains hiv negative, even though we do practice oral sex.

Looking for blemishes on your body will not inform you of your hiv status. The ONLY thing that will tell you your hiv status is testing. And yes, it really is that simple. I don't understand your reluctance to test, because unless you've been having unprotected anal or vaginal intercourse you're not telling  us about, your result is pretty much guaranteed to come back negative.

Ann
Condoms are a girl's best friend

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"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline OralFear

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Re: Oral sex and HIV
« Reply #58 on: October 01, 2007, 10:57:41 AM »
Great ... well now I know your name at least!  THANK YOU Jonathan for all your help and input, I really do appreciate it and hope to clarify a few nagging points that I keep going on about. 

To Ann, I also appreciate and value your comments and time, I think you're all doing a wonderful job here trying to calm and reasure worry warts like myself.  I do agree with you totally that what is said here, should remain here as the information that Jonathan has given me will not only help others but hopefully give us all the courage to get tested. 

I can PROMISE you one thing though - this is the only activity I have practiced - no unprotected anal or vaginal sex so if what you've been telling me is the honest (which I'm sure it is), documented and realiable truth ..... THEN I HONESTLY HAVE NOTHING TO WORRY ABOUT and SHOULD GET ON WITH LIFE!

Offline Ann

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Re: Oral sex and HIV
« Reply #59 on: October 01, 2007, 11:06:04 AM »
THEN I HONESTLY HAVE NOTHING TO WORRY ABOUT and SHOULD GET ON WITH LIFE!

Yes, please do.

Ann
Condoms are a girl's best friend

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"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline OralFear

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Re: Oral sex and HIV
« Reply #60 on: October 01, 2007, 11:14:17 AM »
THANK YOU ANN ..... you're my rock and I hope your partner realises just how luck he is to have you!
I hope to finally put this nightmare behind me and I know deep down what you're telling me is the honest, to goodness medical truth.  Johathan mentioned to me that you know more about the female anatomy and all, so if you could kindly forward some information regarding it all for me to read and educate myself more on, I would really appreciate it.

TAKE CARE AND GOD BLESS!!

Offline OralFear

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Re: Oral sex and HIV
« Reply #61 on: October 02, 2007, 08:33:29 AM »
Ann, please can you send me some documentation on the woman's anatomy on how HIV is transmitted from woman to woman.

Quote
Ann really is the expert on this topic, as it was she who informed me about the Bartholin's Gland versus the deeper cervical fluids insofar as infectivity is concerned. When and if I manage to find new information, I shall endeavor (after running it by Ann/Andy/Tim/Annie et al) to post it. I doubt there will be very much more reliable, recent information. But I will continue to look, and post where/when appropriate.

I'd like to read up more on this.
Thank you

Offline Ann

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Re: Oral sex and HIV
« Reply #62 on: October 02, 2007, 08:55:31 AM »
OF,

I can't send you documentation on how hiv is transmitted from woman to woman because none exists. It isn't transmitted from woman to woman (unless they're sharing drug injecting needles). That's what we've been trying to tell you!

If you want to know more about women's anatomy, there are plenty of very good sources on the internet and I'm sure you can find them in your own time.

The link I already gave you for information on the Bartholin's glands would be a good start.

And re-read your entire thread. I can't think of anything else to tell you that we haven't already told you.

Ann

Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline Ann

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Re: Oral sex and HIV
« Reply #63 on: October 02, 2007, 09:04:01 AM »

If you've read the Welcome Thread like you're supposed to, you would have read the following:

Quote
Anyone who continues to post excessively, questioning a conclusive negative result or no-risk situation, will be subject to a four week Time Out (a temporary ban from the Forums). The purpose of a Time Out is to encourage you to seek the face-to-face help we cannot provide on this forum.

Please consider yourself warned. We've repeatedly given you the facts, now it's your turn to deal with them. We cannot do anything more for you here.

Ann


PS - remember the warning I gave you (above) on July 27th? It's still in effect.

Ann
« Last Edit: October 02, 2007, 09:09:38 AM by Ann »
Condoms are a girl's best friend

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"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline OralFear

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Oral sex and HIV
« Reply #64 on: October 02, 2007, 10:00:15 AM »
Ann, I did read the Welcome Thread and "Lessons of Transmissions" over and over again ... this is the reason why I keep coming back to the same issues as it's not really conclusive to what everyone here has been telling me.

Quote
The reason why sexual activity is a risk for HIV transmission is because it allows for the exchange of body fluids. Researchers have consistently found that HIV can be transmitted via blood, semen, and vaginal secretions. It is also true that HIV has been detected in saliva, tears, and urine. However, HIV in these fluids is only found in extremely low concentrations.  Oral-Vaginal Sex

Like the study of fellatio, evaluating the risk of unprotected oral-vaginal sex (cunnilingus) is difficult, given that most people surveyed in studies did not avoid other types of unsafe sexual activity. However, there have been case reports highlighting one case of female-to-female transmission of HIV via cunnilingus and another case of female-to-male transmission of HIV via cunnilingus. Both of these cases involved transmission from receptive partner (the one receiving oral sex) to the insertive partner (the one performing oral sex).


I know you've warned me .... I'm only looking for the facts and nothin more. 
Surely you can understand my ordeal and want to help me try to understand it all? 

Offline Ann

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Re: Oral sex and HIV
« Reply #65 on: October 02, 2007, 10:17:15 AM »
OF,

As Jonathan already pointed out to you, those two alleged cases of transmission via cunnilingus have huge question marks over them as in BOTH cases, it was later found that there had been other behaviour that put them at risk for infection. In one case it was male to female via intercourse (which the woman initially refused to disclose) and I think the other case involved needle sharing.


There have been no documented cases of female-to-female oral HIV transmission. In every researched claim, there have been other risk factors (i.e. heterosexual sex, sharing IV drug needles) which ARE, in fact, considered high risk activity.


Ann
Condoms are a girl's best friend

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"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline OralFear

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Oral sex and HIV
« Reply #66 on: October 02, 2007, 10:22:07 AM »
Thank you Ann
Would these studies have included the whole world or just the United States and are these current findings?  Reason why I'm asking is that I live in South Africa were AIDS is quite rife and we have no data backing any of this information up?

Offline Ann

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Re: Oral sex and HIV
« Reply #67 on: October 02, 2007, 10:28:08 AM »
OF,

I told you ages ago that your location has nothing to do with and does not change the scientific facts of hiv transmission.

I'll tell you one more time - if you cannot bring yourself to believe us, go test and collect your negative result. I see no point in constantly re-hashing this information with you.

I'm going to go ahead and give you that time out I've warned you about. Do not create yet another new account to get around your time out because if you do, you will be permanently banned, no questions asked.

Please use this time to test and also to seek out counseling where you can address your hiv anxiety and learn how to cope with it. We can't help you with that here.

We've repeatedly given you the facts, now it's your turn to deal with them.

Ann
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline OralFear

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Oral sex and HIV
« Reply #68 on: November 13, 2007, 01:24:50 AM »
Hi all .... just wanted to let you know that I'm going to be having my blood taken for an HIV test to be done for insurance purposes today.  Please pray for me and I hope that everything I've been told here is the absolute truth and I really having nothing to worry about.  I'm so scared that I feel ill!

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: Oral sex and HIV
« Reply #69 on: November 13, 2007, 01:36:08 AM »
You'll test negative.

If you don't I'll pay for your plane ticket to Australia so you can kick me in the butt.

MtD

Offline OralFear

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Re: Oral sex and HIV
« Reply #70 on: November 13, 2007, 01:53:37 AM »
matty.the.damned .... will take you up on that offer as my husband will probably kill me here anyway!
Thank you and praying that won't be necessary!

Offline OralFear

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To all at AidsMeds
« Reply #71 on: November 13, 2007, 02:28:42 AM »
I just want to thank you all for your posts, support and response.
I'm going for my HIV test today and ask that you all say a little prayer for me.
May God be with you all.
Kelly

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: To all at AidsMeds
« Reply #72 on: November 13, 2007, 02:55:53 AM »
Kelly,

Please keep all your additional thoughts, questions and comments in your original thread. This helps us to follow your story and give you the most accurate advice.

If you can't find you original thread click on the red link I've provided above. Alternatively you can click on the "show own posts" link in the left hand column of any forums page.

MtD

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: Oral sex and HIV
« Reply #73 on: November 13, 2007, 02:57:35 AM »
Kelly,

Don't send me PM's. Anything you need to ask me about your case can be answered publicly. You will test negative.

MtD

Offline OralFear

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Re: Oral sex and HIV
« Reply #74 on: November 13, 2007, 03:09:29 AM »
Sorry Matt ... I just wanted to get your opinion on the whole matter and what you're thoughts were.
If no one has ever tested positive from oral sex ... then I shouldn't be the first, should I?
I feel so scared that I'm just looking for abit of support right now.
Thank you

Offline OralFear

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Re: To all at AidsMeds
« Reply #75 on: November 13, 2007, 03:23:57 AM »
Sorry Matt .... just wanted to thank everyone at Aidsmeds .... what ever the outcome of my test results would be.  Not sure I'm going to be able to do that if it turns out positive.

Thank you
Kelly

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: To all at AidsMeds
« Reply #76 on: November 13, 2007, 03:41:41 AM »
Then keep it in your original thread.

MtD

Offline OralFear

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Say a Little Prayer for me!
« Reply #77 on: November 13, 2007, 05:29:10 AM »
Well, here it goes ... Just wanted to thank everyone at Aidsmeds .... what ever the outcome of my test results will be.  Not sure if I'm going to be able to do that if it turns out positive.

Thank you
Kelly

Offline OralFear

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Re: Oral sex and HIV
« Reply #78 on: November 15, 2007, 01:11:23 AM »
I still haven't got my results back yet and I'm really starting to worry!
My husband had his test done on Monday afternoon and I had mine done on Tuesday ... it's now Thursday morning and we've heard nothing!  Do you think this is a need for concern.  Going out of my mind with worry.

Offline thunter34

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Re: Oral sex and HIV
« Reply #79 on: November 15, 2007, 02:28:00 PM »
No.  Good grief.  It's only been two days for you and three for your husband...and all from what it looks like you have been told were non-risk scenarios.   
AIDS isn't for sissies.

Offline OralFear

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Re: Oral sex and HIV
« Reply #80 on: November 16, 2007, 01:48:57 AM »
thunter34 ... thank you for your comment!  So you think I should start worrying?  I mean it's now Friday morning and it's been a week for my husband's results and four days for mine....surely they'd have them by now?

Offline MOONLIGHT1114

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Re: Oral sex and HIV
« Reply #81 on: November 16, 2007, 02:57:52 AM »
Oral~

Thunter said "No, good grief" as far as your worrying.....Its clear that you are unsettled.  There's nothing wrong with you calling your doctor tomorrow and asking where the results are.  It will set your mind at ease.

~ Cindy
HIV+ since '93, 1/12 - CD4 785 and undet.   WOO-HOO!!

Offline OralFear

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Re: Oral sex and HIV
« Reply #82 on: November 16, 2007, 03:02:21 AM »
MOONLIGHT1114, thank you!
So what you're saying is that I shouldn't worry about my HIV test as my exposure was only oral between another female and myself. I didn't go to a doctor for the test.  The Lab came out directly to me because it's for life insurance increase.  What do you think my chances are?  Surely I would have known by now if there was a problem?
Thank you
Kelly

Offline MOONLIGHT1114

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Re: Oral sex and HIV
« Reply #83 on: November 16, 2007, 03:05:01 AM »
I'm not a doctor or a Moderator for the site, but I have read enough times to know what a Mod would post here -- No Risk.  Read the Lessons on Transmission, I think you'll be just fine.  I didn't realize this was for a Life Insurance reason, not sure how they handle that if you test pos (which you won't).  Why not go to the Health Dept where they offer free testing?

You'll be OK, really.
HIV+ since '93, 1/12 - CD4 785 and undet.   WOO-HOO!!

Offline MOONLIGHT1114

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Re: Oral sex and HIV
« Reply #84 on: November 16, 2007, 03:06:07 AM »
Hiv is not transmitted through sexual relations between two women.

Goderator Ann knows what she is talking about......   :)
HIV+ since '93, 1/12 - CD4 785 and undet.   WOO-HOO!!

Offline OralFear

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Re: Oral sex and HIV
« Reply #85 on: November 16, 2007, 03:12:47 AM »
MOONLIGHT1114 ... I'm praying to God each day that what has been said to me is the documented, factual truth and that I really have nothing to worry about.  You read so many conflicting reports that yes and no it is a risk that you don't know what to believe anymore.  I think it's good that I've eventually had to take the test, as either which way my mind will be put to ease!

Offline OralFear

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Re: Oral sex and HIV
« Reply #86 on: November 19, 2007, 01:53:36 AM »
MOONLIGHT1114 .... I still haven't received my test results.  Do you think I should wait a little longer - maybe 'no news is good news?'

Offline Ann

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Re: Oral sex and HIV
« Reply #87 on: November 19, 2007, 09:38:55 AM »
Oral,

Moonlight isn't authorised to answer questions in this forum, so there's not much point in asking her questions.

If you're concerned about what's happened to your test results, gee, maybe you should ring the place where you had the test done? But saying that, when being tested for insurance purposes like you say you have been, you can bet you'll be notified if the test result was positive.

Keep posting (other than to report what we already know - your test result is negative) and you'll be given another time out.

Ann
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

 


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