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Author Topic: hypothetical situation  (Read 3517 times)

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tendai

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hypothetical situation
« on: July 06, 2007, 06:34:36 AM »
hypothetical situation. u're poz and u're on a date. u've known each other for a few weeks, u havent disclosed yet.  things turn physical really fast and then your date decides to have unprotected sex with you WITHOUT your consent. you tell him "no no no no dont, its not safe"  but dont tell 'hey stop i have hiv" as such. i mean there was no discussion on whether sex was on the agenda for that day or anything like that he just decides he wants to do it and goes right ahead. so can you be blamed or feel responsible if this person ends up getting infected? ???

Offline Dachshund

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Re: hypothetical situation
« Reply #1 on: July 06, 2007, 06:42:45 AM »
Unless it is rape you are talking about here and YOU decide to have unprotected sex with this person, then yes, you are as responsible as your partner. You don't have to reveal your status to insist on safe sex.

Offline RapidRod

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Re: hypothetical situation
« Reply #2 on: July 06, 2007, 06:47:16 AM »
Yes, in a heart beat.

Offline apple

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Re: hypothetical situation
« Reply #3 on: July 06, 2007, 06:49:33 AM »
Yes, one should feel responsible because if the worst can come to the worst, the best is even to tell the person last minute than I am positive!

Offline Cliff

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Re: hypothetical situation
« Reply #4 on: July 06, 2007, 06:57:57 AM »
Because you can say no to sex (without disclosing your status), then yes, I would say you do have some responsibility.  The description is a bit unclear, because it comes across as if you were forced to have sex (i.e., raped).  While someone can demand sex, unless you are raped, you still have ultimate responsibility for saying no to sex, if you aren't comfortable or its unwanted.

Offline DanielMark

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Re: hypothetical situation
« Reply #5 on: July 06, 2007, 07:50:29 AM »
Is it just me or is this an odd thing to speculate?

Hypothetically speaking, I would never put my self in that kind of situation. On the other hand, if someone were twisted enough to rape me then responsibility for them contracting the virus through a disgusting act of violence would be the least of my concerns.

Daniel
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Offline Ann

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Re: hypothetical situation
« Reply #6 on: July 06, 2007, 08:06:56 AM »
Because you can say no to sex (without disclosing your status), then yes, I would say you do have some responsibility. 

Unfortunately, as I'm sure many of the women here know, with some men you can say NO all you like and they don't take any notice. They wheedle and cajole. Sometimes they turn nasty.

It's easy to say "I'd never allow myself into that sort of situation" but sometimes you don't see a man's true colours until he's got a hard-on.

If I found myself entangled with a man in no mood to take no for an answer, I think I'd think twice about disclosing. I'd be worried that the fists would fly.

"Date" rape sucks and I don't even want to contemplate the emotions I'd go through if it were to result in his infection. Don't want to go there, thank you.

Ann


edited for clarity's sake
« Last Edit: July 06, 2007, 08:09:32 AM by Ann »
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"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline penguin

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Re: hypothetical situation
« Reply #7 on: July 06, 2007, 09:30:19 AM »
Tendai -

No means no means no. No one needs to justify why they do not want to have sex. No one has the right to take away the control of making this decision, whether they are long term partner, date, or complete stranger

Sometimes when things are happening very quickly, against our will, it can be very difficult to think clearly. Everything can seem rather unreal - a sort of self defence mechanism that kicks in when the mind feels overwhelmed. I seriously doubt that disclosing hiv status would be top of most people's minds in this kind of situation.

I wonder if this person has someone she can talk to face to face about this - how it has left her feeling, & what, if anything, she may want to do about this..?

I'm not sure where these two people are in the world, as to whether PEP may be available? This would need to be started within 72 hours, but preferably much earlier, to have the best chance of being effective for him. This is of course assuming that he is HIV negative in the first place.

If hypothetical woman was not on some other form of contraceptive, like the pill, she may also want to talk to a dr/pharmacist about emergency contraception. This would again need to be taken with 72 hours, but preferably earlier, to be effective (emergency IUD's can be fitted within 5 days if available/appropriate)

take care - kate
« Last Edit: July 06, 2007, 09:40:10 AM by penguin »

Offline carousel

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Re: hypothetical situation
« Reply #8 on: July 06, 2007, 09:43:48 AM »
Hypothetically of course you would disclose your status. 

When push comes to shove (pardon the bad joke), I can see that there could be a time where I might not disclose.

We all live in the real world.  Let's not forget that none of us are perfect and somebody must be spreading this virus.

So yeh, a hypothetical yes.

Offline Bucko

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Re: hypothetical situation
« Reply #9 on: July 06, 2007, 10:24:31 AM »
When I was still in my early 20s I brought home a strapping specimen after far too much beer had been consumed. The usual qualifying conversation regarding practices and dislikes hadn't been made, and it wasn't until we were rolling around on my bed that it became apparent that he wanted to top me (a big no-no) and would not take my refusal seriously.

Being larger and much heavier than me he pinned me down at penetrated me dry. Although my cloudy memory insists that it was just a few thrusts before I wiggled free, I can't really be certain how long this actually went on before I wiggled free and kicked him out, threatening to call the police. He left abruptly before any further trouble ensued. I was torn and bleeding pretty heavily.

Because I came down with a terrific two-week cold shortly thereafter, I've always wondered if this incident marked my seroconverstion. But by then I'd been sexually active for five years and had already bedded well-over a hundred guys, never with protection. Condoms weren't a standard practice until a year or so after this incident. And this happened in the dead of a Boston winter, when my various bad habits and crummy nutrition guaranteed at least a few bad colds each season, so getting sick wasn't at all unusual.

It should also be said that by 1990, seven years later, very few of my old hook-ups were even still alive. Drugs got the few AIDS had missed. I saw the guy who wouldn't say no in 1988 in a bar and he looked dreadful, but by then so did so many others. I personally never saw this as date-rape, just a trick gone wrong. The main lesson i learned was to properly qualify potential tricks before we left the bar.Many years on, when I was finally tested and came back poz, it made disclosure easier for me, as it was just another qualifier.

So I am stranger to the "hypothetical" scenario posted above. Given my previous history, It's as likely that I'd infected him as he'd infected me. I certainly never have EVER felt guilty about such a possibility, given the circumstances.

Adding a wooden nickel to this discussion-

Brent
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Offline Carolann

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Re: hypothetical situation
« Reply #10 on: July 06, 2007, 11:21:49 AM »
I agree with Ann that the possibility of even more violence is possible in a situation like this. This is a very tough situation, and the only guilt I would feel would be if I transmitted the virus to others through him. Rape is a brutal, ugly, thing, and I would not feel sorry for the rapist. But would I want to get the shit kicked out of me and possibly killed? Again, a tough proposition. It is so scary, how people can react with disclosure. I once had a guy who said I was trying to infect him, when I never, ever put him at risk. All it takes is for some nut, to go haywire to really turn your world upside down.


CA

Offline milker

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Re: hypothetical situation
« Reply #11 on: July 06, 2007, 11:23:18 AM »
Hi Tendai,

I'm sorry you had to go through this.

{{{{ HUGZ }}}}}

Milker.
mid-dec: stupid ass
mid-jan: seroconversion
mid-feb: poz
mar 07: cd4 432 (35%) vl 54000
may 07: cd4 399 (28%) vl 27760
jul 07: cd4 403 (26%) vl 99241
oct 07: cd4 353 (24%) vl 29993
jan 08: cd4 332 (26%) vl 33308
mar 08: cd4 392 (23%) vl 75548
jun 08: cd4 325 (27%) vl 45880
oct 08: cd4 197 (20%) vl 154000 <== aids diagnosis
nov 2 08 start Atripla
nov 30 08: cd4 478 (23%) vl 1880 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
feb 19 09: cd4 398 (24%) vl 430 getting there!
apr 23 09: cd4 604 (29%) vl 50 woohoo :D :D
jul 30 09: cd4 512 (29%) vl undetectable :D :D
may 27 10: cd4 655 (32%) vl undetectable :D :D

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Offline sdcabincrew74

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Re: hypothetical situation
« Reply #12 on: July 07, 2007, 04:56:57 AM »
First, I am very sorry this happened.  Unfortunately I think this is more common in the gay community than anyone will ever admit.  Secondly, if he was neg, I am sure screaming I am poz would end it ASAP. 

As a side note, and maybe I am a sicko for thinking this but I often think if I am ever mugged or anything all I have to do is scream "I HAVE AIDS hope you do not catch it" ..... and they will run away scared and leave me alone ..... I guess I am weird, but hell, there has to be a silver lining to this blasted disease somewhere!
The difference between an overnight and a layover is luck!

Offline RapidRod

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Re: hypothetical situation
« Reply #13 on: July 07, 2007, 05:18:21 AM »
With all the frivolous lawsuits. I wonder if a rapist could file suit if he/she contracted HIV. Here if you let a hunter hunt on your property and they get hurt they can and do sue the owner. Really it's their insurance company that brings the suit.

Offline Queen Tokelove

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Re: hypothetical situation
« Reply #14 on: July 08, 2007, 05:59:36 AM »
I will just say that I was date raped on my birthday of all days...When I went to file charges, the police wouldn't do anything about it. I took a lie detector test and the guy did too, we both passed and the police dropped it..I am really disturbed by people who think they were raped, to me it is something you should know...Was it against your will? Then it is rape...But karma is a bitch. Dude became a crackhead and was told he died at a bus stop...Do I feel remorse....Hell motherfuckin no.....
Started Atripla/Ziagen on 9/13/07.
10/31/07 CD4-265 VL- undetectable
2/6/08 CD4- 401 VL- undetectable
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3/3/09---Starting Back on Meds---
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Offline Ann

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Re: hypothetical situation
« Reply #15 on: July 08, 2007, 06:57:20 AM »
I will just say that I was date raped on my birthday of all days...When I went to file charges, the police wouldn't do anything about it. I took a lie detector test and the guy did too, we both passed and the police dropped it..I am really disturbed by people who think they were raped, to me it is something you should know...Was it against your will? Then it is rape...But karma is a bitch. Dude became a crackhead and was told he died at a bus stop...Do I feel remorse....Hell motherfuckin no.....

That's one of the big issues with date rape - the guy probably passed his lie detector because he felt he did nothing wrong. Too many guys seem to have a sense of entitlement - as in "I've taken you out on a date, spent money, now you owe me a shag". They seem to think if the woman dare say "NO" to his sexual advances, then the woman is not keeping her side of the bargain.

Some men are just neanderthals. 

Ann
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline xyahka

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Re: hypothetical situation
« Reply #16 on: July 08, 2007, 01:42:12 PM »
I would just say, YES, you are responsible if something like that happens. I know in some cases for women is hard to defend in such situations but if it is a male2male situation... one can and HAVE TO stop it.

I have been requested unprotected sex several times after diagnosed by people i picked up somewhere... even one of them said he wanted to have unprotected sex and drink my cum as he used to do with his bf's (sorry for giving too much info) ... i excused myself saying i didn't know his status or his health condition... If anytime someone tries to force me i am really ready to go boxing.... pity i have to do it not to protect myself but to protect him... sometimes one has to save lives the hard way  ;).

Juan Carlos
13/03/07 1er diagnóstico /Peso: 79kg
19/04/07 CD4: 494 /CViral: ?? /Peso: 80kg
19/07/07 CD4: 659 /CViral: ?? /Peso: 79.5kg
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01/02/11 CD4: 291 /CViral: ? /Peso: 78kg.
05/05/11 CD4: 366 /CViral: ? /Peso: 78kg.
27/07/11 CD4: 255 /CViral: 138000 /Peso: 78kg.

Disfrutando y aceptando una nueva vida...

tendai

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Re: hypothetical situation
« Reply #17 on: July 11, 2007, 04:39:30 AM »
thanks a lot for your input guys. Personally i think he deserves whatever he's going to get because a person cant go around forcing himself on people like that, regardless of HIV status. no means no and if he decides to disregard peoples wishes then thats his problem.  besides he's of unknown status and could have been deliberately trying to infect you or something. 

Offline indyguy

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Re: hypothetical situation
« Reply #18 on: July 11, 2007, 04:48:38 AM »
I have also been asked to have unprotected sex even after tell the guy I was poz. I of course said no because I dont want to get something else, this is enough. I always disclose soon after the dicussion even starts leading in that direction. My bf is neg and after we started getting back together this was the very first thing I advised him of. I still havent figured out why anyone would want to bareback knowing the other person is poz and they say they arent. Takes all kinds I guess.
Meds doing well so far.

tendai

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Re: hypothetical situation
« Reply #19 on: July 11, 2007, 05:13:51 AM »
i'm wondering if maybe they feel they're uninfectable or if its suicidal tendencies or they're stupid or they just dont care. i cant understand it but i wont feel responsible for them

Offline dtwpuck

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Re: hypothetical situation
« Reply #20 on: July 11, 2007, 06:59:53 AM »
I avoid hypothetical situations like these altogether by always disclosing before a date even occurs.  I don't need to be going on dates with people who are going to have issues with hiv.    I can handle rejection from someone I don't know.   I'd rather not feel like I have a big secret as I get to know someone. 

And as far as the situation you described... well in the gay world at least, one would be an idiot to assume that sex isn't on the agenda.  For that matter... whenever you're dealing with a male, rest assured sex is on the agenda.
Floating through the void in the caress of two giant pink lobsters named Esmerelda and Keith.

Offline bocker3

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Re: hypothetical situation
« Reply #21 on: July 11, 2007, 07:18:24 AM »
I would just say, YES, you are responsible if something like that happens. I know in some cases for women is hard to defend in such situations but if it is a male2male situation... one can and HAVE TO stop it.

This is a very naive position to take.  Just because it is a male/male situation does not mean that the unwilling partner has the ability to stop it.  Male on male rape happens all the time -- I know, because it happened to me years ago, in college.  We were only supposed to be having oral sex -- he decided that he wanted my ass -- I said, NO -- he pinned me down and took it anyway.  Fortunately, I got away from the encounter with no physical scars and, thankfully, no STD's -- of course, it turned me off from bottoming for about 20 yrs.
So, by saying "one can and HAVE TO stop it", makes it sound like you think either I wasn't raped or that I "asked for it".  I don't think that is your intent -- but it IS the message I read from your position.

Mike
Atripla - Started 12/05
Reyataz/Norvir - Added 6/06
Labs - Pre-Meds
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Offline red_Dragon888

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Re: hypothetical situation
« Reply #22 on: July 11, 2007, 07:53:27 AM »
hypothetically, your first instinct is to call the POLICE and seek mental help for truma.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=I3ba3lnFHik

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Offline Ann

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Re: hypothetical situation
« Reply #23 on: July 11, 2007, 07:57:27 AM »
hypothetically, your first instinct is to call the POLICE and seek mental help for truma.

What planet do you live on? So the next time I find myself pinned down by a jerk who won't take no for an answer, I'll politely ask him to stop for a minute so I can ring the cops. Yeah, right.

Ann
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline red_Dragon888

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Re: hypothetical situation
« Reply #24 on: July 11, 2007, 08:30:38 AM »
What planet do you live on? So the next time I find myself pinned down by a jerk who won't take no for an answer, I'll politely ask him to stop for a minute so I can ring the cops. Yeah, right.

Ann


i meant after the crime has taken place and you feel safe to call the police.  afterall, if he is crazy enough to date rape you, he may do worst.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=I3ba3lnFHik

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