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Author Topic: poppers and ks - the connection?  (Read 15247 times)

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Offline Smoothstone

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  • Posts: 96
poppers and ks - the connection?
« on: June 22, 2007, 03:00:36 PM »
Check out this review article on poppers and KS.  The mechanism for a poppers and KS  connection has been demonstrated.
 
'Effects of inhalant nitrites on VEGF Expression: a Feasible link to Kaposi's sarcoma?" by Ho-leung Fung and Donah Tran in JOURNAL OF NEUROIMMUNE PHARMACOLOGY published online: June 9, 2006

www.springerlink.com/content/73h7w882j6616514/fulltext.html       

Fung and Tran have a NIDA grant to explore poppers effect on the immune system.  They are not HIV denialists.  Most people with the KS virus do not progress to Kaposi's sarcoma.

many, consumers as well as health care providers, are not familiar with the human study done on the effect of poppers on the immune system. it was done in 1986 by Elizabeth Dax at the NIDA's Addiction Research Center and found natural killer cell function was immediately suppressed 30% after 3 hits of poppers, took 4 days to recover to baseline, then kept the immune system stimulated for another week.

many have dismissed concern about poppers when hiv was discovered. however, a growing body of research has accumulated showing that poppers are immunosuppressive. A connection with ks continues to surface in some, admittedly not all, ks epidemiology.

Denialism is not limited to just beliefs about HIV.   Given the history of poppers in the early epidemic, its understandable why people are dismissive, confused, partially informed, or misinformed about the hazard of using poppers. Also, The poppers industry is thriving and continuing their line that poppers are harmless.
And folks who love em might not be receptive to the research findings?   

 

Offline RapidRod

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Re: poppers and ks - the connection?
« Reply #1 on: June 22, 2007, 08:22:15 PM »
Limitations of the present studies
Although our present studies indicated that in vivo nitrite inhalation, in an animal model, can alter the gene expression of several angiogenesis-related factors, including VEGF and its receptors, in selected tissues, as well as stimulate the growth of a subcutaneous tumor, the direct relevance of these findings to the human pathology of KS was not demonstrated. However, since the growth of KS is intimately linked to VEGF expression, a feasible mechanistic pathway for the association of nitrite inhalation with KS is suggested. There are many confounding factors involved in human KS that are not, and cannot be, duplicated in our simple animal model, so further human studies are needed to substantiate the role of increased VEGF expression in KS development in nitrite abusers

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: poppers and ks - the connection?
« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2007, 08:27:34 PM »
As usual, Roddles' eagle eye has picked out the most important part of this study. Allow Matty the Damned to underline the key points for the kids in the back row:

Limitations of the present studies
Although our present studies indicated that in vivo nitrite inhalation, in an animal model, can alter the gene expression of several angiogenesis-related factors, including VEGF and its receptors, in selected tissues, as well as stimulate the growth of a subcutaneous tumor, the direct relevance of these findings to the human pathology of KS was not demonstrated. However, since the growth of KS is intimately linked to VEGF expression, a feasible mechanistic pathway for the association of nitrite inhalation with KS is suggested. There are many confounding factors involved in human KS that are not, and cannot be, duplicated in our simple animal model, so further human studies are needed to substantiate the role of increased VEGF expression in KS development in nitrite abusers


/*Emphasis added by Matty the Damned*/

MtD

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: poppers and ks - the connection?
« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2007, 09:47:54 PM »
not this again
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline milker

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Re: poppers and ks - the connection?
« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2007, 10:46:44 PM »
I'm sorry I glued the test mouse.

Milker.
mid-dec: stupid ass
mid-jan: seroconversion
mid-feb: poz
mar 07: cd4 432 (35%) vl 54000
may 07: cd4 399 (28%) vl 27760
jul 07: cd4 403 (26%) vl 99241
oct 07: cd4 353 (24%) vl 29993
jan 08: cd4 332 (26%) vl 33308
mar 08: cd4 392 (23%) vl 75548
jun 08: cd4 325 (27%) vl 45880
oct 08: cd4 197 (20%) vl 154000 <== aids diagnosis
nov 2 08 start Atripla
nov 30 08: cd4 478 (23%) vl 1880 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
feb 19 09: cd4 398 (24%) vl 430 getting there!
apr 23 09: cd4 604 (29%) vl 50 woohoo :D :D
jul 30 09: cd4 512 (29%) vl undetectable :D :D
may 27 10: cd4 655 (32%) vl undetectable :D :D

Now accepting applications from blowjob ninjasô

Offline bimazek

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Re: poppers and ks - the connection?
« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2007, 02:42:38 AM »
poppers = ks
check out the book,
history of the castro

there is a hiv guy in a photo with his nose completely KS

the entire nose

that is all i have to see

everyone i talk to that has KS tells me they used lots of poppers


Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: poppers and ks - the connection?
« Reply #6 on: June 23, 2007, 04:13:01 AM »
poppers = ks

Pig's arse.

It's about time we had some serious science on this issue. The notion that poppers (amyl and butyl nitrites) are in anyway related to KS has long been debunked by reputable science. Even the study quoted by Smoothstone in this thread gives substance to that side of the argument.

But since the indefatigable Bimazek has chimed in, predictably,  let's chuck a couple more studies into the mix, shall we?

In their excellent page on KS, AIDSMAP have this to say on the subject:

Earlier ideas about the cause of KS, such as the theory that it was linked to the recreational use of poppers (inhaled nitrites) by gay men, have now been discounted.

King County Public Health in their "update on poppers"  have, in part, this to say about the subject:

Poppers do not cause KS. This theory from the early AIDS epidemic has long been disproved. KS is caused by the HHV-8 virus (human herpesvirus, type 8, also known as Kaposi’s sarcoma virus). Using poppers, however, may facilitate the sexual transmission of HHV-8 through unprotected sex.

People may draw from these what they will. That doesn't change the fact that this whole argument about KS being caused by nitrite inhalant abuse is total horse shit. Smoothstone and Bimazek are advancing long discredited sex-negative and homophobic arguments.

Whilst they may be free to spout such malarkey, they certainly should not be free from rebuttal.

I would like to thank JKinatl2 for his assistance in sourcing the references I've quoted in this post.

MtD

/edited to refine various aspects/
« Last Edit: June 23, 2007, 05:18:27 AM by matty.the.damned »

Offline J220

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  • Posts: 587
Re: poppers and ks - the connection?
« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2007, 11:28:07 PM »
Well said MtD///
"Hope is my philosophy
Just needs days in which to be
Love of Life means hope for me
Born on a New Day" - John David

Offline milker

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Re: poppers and ks - the connection?
« Reply #8 on: June 23, 2007, 11:39:27 PM »
Yes, poppers causes KS. And I will prove it.

1) You sniff a bottle of poppers.
2) You have unprotected sex because poppers helped you being uninhibited.
3) You get HIV+
4) You don't know you're HIV+ because you don't get tested because you sniff poppers too much, so your CD4s fall to 0 and you get KS.

I can also prove that poppers cause broken legs. And I will prove it.

1) You sniff a bottle of poppers.
2) You want to get your Jeff Striker Dildo
3) It's in the bathroom, where you just had a shower
4) You slip on the wet tiles.
5) You break your leg.

Also, poppers can make you a republican, and I will prove it:

1) You sniff a bottle of poppers while stroking your dick and watching tv
2) You try to find something that will make you cum, but the remote gets stuck on Fox News
3) You cum watching Ann Coulter.

Milker.
mid-dec: stupid ass
mid-jan: seroconversion
mid-feb: poz
mar 07: cd4 432 (35%) vl 54000
may 07: cd4 399 (28%) vl 27760
jul 07: cd4 403 (26%) vl 99241
oct 07: cd4 353 (24%) vl 29993
jan 08: cd4 332 (26%) vl 33308
mar 08: cd4 392 (23%) vl 75548
jun 08: cd4 325 (27%) vl 45880
oct 08: cd4 197 (20%) vl 154000 <== aids diagnosis
nov 2 08 start Atripla
nov 30 08: cd4 478 (23%) vl 1880 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
feb 19 09: cd4 398 (24%) vl 430 getting there!
apr 23 09: cd4 604 (29%) vl 50 woohoo :D :D
jul 30 09: cd4 512 (29%) vl undetectable :D :D
may 27 10: cd4 655 (32%) vl undetectable :D :D

Now accepting applications from blowjob ninjasô

Offline Miss Philicia

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  • celebrity poster, faker & poser
Re: poppers and ks - the connection?
« Reply #9 on: June 24, 2007, 01:23:39 AM »
poppers = ks

uh... no

you need some serious therapy
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline J220

  • Member
  • Posts: 587
Re: poppers and ks - the connection?
« Reply #10 on: June 24, 2007, 01:32:10 AM »
Ann Coulter...NOOOOOO!  damn there goes my hard on. The Wicked Witch of the Right...lol
"Hope is my philosophy
Just needs days in which to be
Love of Life means hope for me
Born on a New Day" - John David

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: poppers and ks - the connection?
« Reply #11 on: June 24, 2007, 01:33:58 AM »
This poppers malarky is skirting quite close to AIDS denialism advocacy... they're quite fond of this as being the cause of AIDS.  I'm tempted to use the "report to moderator" function.
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline J.R.E.

  • Member
  • Posts: 7,212
  • Joined Dec-2003 Living positive, since 1985.
Current Meds ; Viramune, Epzicom, 40mg of simvastatin, 12.5mg of Hydrochlorothiazide.
Metoprolol tartrate 25mg



http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=40802.0

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=45159.0

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=39722.msg495621;topicseen#msg495621

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=46806.0

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=39414.msg491701#msg491701


 In October of 2003, My t-cell count was 16, Viral load was over 500,000, Percentage at that time was 5%. I started my first  HAART regimen  on October 24th,03.

 As of 8/2514,  t-cells are at 402, Viral load <40

 Current % is at 11%

  
 62 years young.

Offline Smoothstone

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  • Posts: 96
Re: poppers and ks - the connection?
« Reply #13 on: June 25, 2007, 03:21:51 PM »
Bravo, with some qualifications, for the King's County Update on Poppers.

1. It fails to acknowledge the sole human study done on the effects of poppers on the human immune system.  The Dax study PubMed ID: 1685501 and PubMed ID 2902516 found natural killer cell function suppressed immediately with only 3 hits of poppers. The participants resided during the study at the Addiction Research Center to insure that they were not using drugs.  The good news was that the immune system recovered but  it took 4 days to reach baseline.

 Immunosuppression may increase susceptibility to infections, whether to HIV, or other STDs. 



Offline milker

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Re: poppers and ks - the connection?
« Reply #14 on: June 25, 2007, 03:33:15 PM »
T8s kick in everytime there is an unwanted substance in the body. They kick in when you have a cold, and even when you eat salad or you drink wine and there is something unwanted in them. Everything you ingest and inhale is verified.

You don't need to even start a study to know that poppers is not a good thing for your body. Anything that makes your brain go wild is obviously not very safe. But it has not been connected to KS. The studies that were done back in the 1980s were dismissed, and the new studies we see now have not proven the link.

But I can assure you, if I sniff glue or anything that can irritate my skin, I will have a bad looking nose at the end of the day.

Milker.
mid-dec: stupid ass
mid-jan: seroconversion
mid-feb: poz
mar 07: cd4 432 (35%) vl 54000
may 07: cd4 399 (28%) vl 27760
jul 07: cd4 403 (26%) vl 99241
oct 07: cd4 353 (24%) vl 29993
jan 08: cd4 332 (26%) vl 33308
mar 08: cd4 392 (23%) vl 75548
jun 08: cd4 325 (27%) vl 45880
oct 08: cd4 197 (20%) vl 154000 <== aids diagnosis
nov 2 08 start Atripla
nov 30 08: cd4 478 (23%) vl 1880 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
feb 19 09: cd4 398 (24%) vl 430 getting there!
apr 23 09: cd4 604 (29%) vl 50 woohoo :D :D
jul 30 09: cd4 512 (29%) vl undetectable :D :D
may 27 10: cd4 655 (32%) vl undetectable :D :D

Now accepting applications from blowjob ninjasô

Offline bimazek

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  • Posts: 781
Re: poppers and ks - the connection?
« Reply #15 on: June 25, 2007, 04:07:51 PM »
poppers cancer 778 articles
http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=poppers+cancer&hl=en&lr=&btnG=Search

poppers cancer 110 articles specifically for isobutyl
http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&lr=&q=%22isobutyl+nitrite%22+cancer&btnG=Search

The poppers science is very clear, poppers cause herpes to explode, herpes causes KS, and just from the sweet guys i talk to in my support group who have had terrible KS they all used poppers alot, but above are 888 articles to show it. i do have a photo of a friend of a friend who'se entire nose is purple with KS from poppers.

Effects of Inhalant Nitrites on VEGF Expression: A Feasible Link to Kaposi's Sarcoma?
HL Fung, DC Tran - Journal of NeuroImmune Pharmacology, 2006 - Springer
... Cancer Res 65:1738Ė1747 Soderberg LS (1994) T cell functions are impaired by
inhaled isobutyl nitrite through a T- independent mechanism. ...
Cited by 1 - Related Articles - Web Search

DNA fragmentation in rat and human lung cells exposed to six chemicals carcinogenic to the rat lung.
G Brambilla, L Robbiano, D Baroni - 2006 - aacrmeetingabstracts.org
... Baroni AACRMTG 2006:11, 1223-1223, American Association for Cancer Research, 2006. ...
methylene bis (2-chloroaniline) 31.2 and 62.5 ĶM, isobutyl nitrite from 7.8 ...
Cached - Web Search

Poppers: large cancer increase and immune suppression in animal tests. - group of 11 Ľ
JS James - AIDS Treat News, 1999 - ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
... AIDS: A study on mice injected with cancer cells and then exposed to isobutyl nitrite
(poppers) revealed that inhalant-treated mice developed tumors more ...
Web Search

Relationship Between Kaposi Sarcoma-Associated Herpesvirus and HIV - group of 3 Ľ
TR O'Brien, EA Engels, PS Rosenberg, JJ Goedert, Ö - 2002 - Am Med Assoc
... Int J Cancer. ... of iso-butyl nitrite vapor in the Ames test and some relevant chemical
properties including the reaction of isobutyl nitrite with phosphate. ...

Poppers: Epidemiology and Clinical Management of Inhaled Nitrite Abuse - group of 3 Ľ
C Pomeroy - Pharmacotherapy, 2004 - extenza-eps.com
... led to a proliferation of the nonregulated chemicals butyl and isobutyl nitrite
in the ... in later years of the HIV epidemic found that the cancer most likely was

Anon (1996a) Inhalant Abuse. NIDA Research Report Series, via http://www.nida.nih.gov, Research Reports/Inhalants/Inhalants4.html

Offline frenchpat

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Re: poppers and ks - the connection?
« Reply #16 on: June 25, 2007, 04:29:17 PM »
Bim,

That you are convinced of a link between poppers sniffing and Kaposi's sarcoma is clear to everyone here - or should be by now.

You seem very serious about this and inundate your posts with paragraphs of evidence and links to articles supporting your beliefs.

But quantity was never a synonym for quality.

I seriously doubt that you have read ALL 888 articles you refer to here. In fact, had you read just the search result pages you Googled you would have noticed that some articles had absolutely nothing to do with poppers... like  some that had to do with a Mr. Poppers, obviously a scientist involved in cancer research such as this:

Welch RM, Harrison YE, Conney AH, Poppers PJ, Finster M. Cigarette smoking: stimulatory effect on metabolism of 3,4-benzpyrene by enzymes in human placenta. Science. 1968 May 3;160(827):541Ė542.

There are multiple occurrences of such outdated, irrelevant studies in your links.

If you intend to cite data to support your claims, please do your homework. Because no matter the amounts of references you may want to cite in order to make your case, someone here will read throughout threads before answering and scrutinize what is laid as evidence.

This is plain lazy and disrespectful to the people you are trying to convince and the others as well.

Pat
People have the power - Patti Smith

Offline Jake72

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  • Posts: 145
Re: poppers and ks - the connection?
« Reply #17 on: June 25, 2007, 04:52:57 PM »

I seriously doubt that you have read ALL 888 articles you refer to here. In fact, had you read just the search result pages you Googled you would have noticed that some articles had absolutely nothing to do with poppers... like  some that had to do with a Mr. Poppers, obviously a scientist

Sounds like the sexually liberated cousin of Dr. Pepper ;)

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: poppers and ks - the connection?
« Reply #18 on: June 25, 2007, 05:18:40 PM »
Oh Patty!

Outstanding work dearest! Bwahahahahahahahahhahahaha! ;D

Bim,

You do realise what this means, don't you? You've been comprehensively busted. You don't even bother to read the "studies" you haul out of the mire that is Google Scholar. Whatever tiny shred of credibility you may have had with some people has now been obliterated.

MtD

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: poppers and ks - the connection?
« Reply #19 on: June 25, 2007, 06:06:55 PM »
Bim,In fact, had you read just the search result pages you Googled you would have noticed that some articles had absolutely nothing to do with poppers... like  some that had to do with a Mr. Poppers, obviously a scientist involved in cancer research such as this:

Pat, I've pointed this out to bimazekrazy previously more than once.  He simply ignores such errors of his.  I'm at a point where it's simply futile to even discuss this issue with him.  Anyone that list his age on the internet as in the late 30's but also insists that he personally knew both Rock Hudson and Roy Cohn is, I'm sorry to have to say, seriously afflicted with dementia.
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: poppers and ks - the connection?
« Reply #20 on: June 25, 2007, 06:08:02 PM »
Oh Patty!

Outstanding work dearest! Bwahahahahahahahahhahahaha! ;D

Bim,

You do realise what this means, don't you? You've been comprehensively busted. You don't even bother to read the "studies" you haul out of the mire that is Google Scholar. Whatever tiny shred of credibility you may have had with some people has now been obliterated.

MtD

It was "obliterated" months ago if you'd been paying attention, dearest one.
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline milker

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Re: poppers and ks - the connection?
« Reply #21 on: June 25, 2007, 06:11:13 PM »
Hey,

what about this, from the telephone directory:

Poppers, David
126 High St
Boston, MA 02110-2700

Poppers, Dan & Joan
5 Park Mirage Ln
Rancho Mirage, CA 92270-3800

Milker.
mid-dec: stupid ass
mid-jan: seroconversion
mid-feb: poz
mar 07: cd4 432 (35%) vl 54000
may 07: cd4 399 (28%) vl 27760
jul 07: cd4 403 (26%) vl 99241
oct 07: cd4 353 (24%) vl 29993
jan 08: cd4 332 (26%) vl 33308
mar 08: cd4 392 (23%) vl 75548
jun 08: cd4 325 (27%) vl 45880
oct 08: cd4 197 (20%) vl 154000 <== aids diagnosis
nov 2 08 start Atripla
nov 30 08: cd4 478 (23%) vl 1880 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
feb 19 09: cd4 398 (24%) vl 430 getting there!
apr 23 09: cd4 604 (29%) vl 50 woohoo :D :D
jul 30 09: cd4 512 (29%) vl undetectable :D :D
may 27 10: cd4 655 (32%) vl undetectable :D :D

Now accepting applications from blowjob ninjasô

Offline milker

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Re: poppers and ks - the connection?
« Reply #22 on: June 25, 2007, 06:14:31 PM »
Pat, I've pointed this out to bimazekrazy previously more than once.  He simply ignores such errors of his.  I'm at a point where it's simply futile to even discuss this issue with him.  Anyone that list his age on the internet as in the late 30's but also insists that he personally knew both Rock Hudson and Roy Cohn is, I'm sorry to have to say, seriously afflicted with dementia.

While we're at it:

Hudson, Rock
2876 E Slater Dr
Deltona, FL 32738-2173

Milker.
mid-dec: stupid ass
mid-jan: seroconversion
mid-feb: poz
mar 07: cd4 432 (35%) vl 54000
may 07: cd4 399 (28%) vl 27760
jul 07: cd4 403 (26%) vl 99241
oct 07: cd4 353 (24%) vl 29993
jan 08: cd4 332 (26%) vl 33308
mar 08: cd4 392 (23%) vl 75548
jun 08: cd4 325 (27%) vl 45880
oct 08: cd4 197 (20%) vl 154000 <== aids diagnosis
nov 2 08 start Atripla
nov 30 08: cd4 478 (23%) vl 1880 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
feb 19 09: cd4 398 (24%) vl 430 getting there!
apr 23 09: cd4 604 (29%) vl 50 woohoo :D :D
jul 30 09: cd4 512 (29%) vl undetectable :D :D
may 27 10: cd4 655 (32%) vl undetectable :D :D

Now accepting applications from blowjob ninjasô

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: poppers and ks - the connection?
« Reply #23 on: June 25, 2007, 06:14:31 PM »
I heard David Poppers hangs out at the Brass Rail... ever been there?  It's in San Diego where you live isn't it?
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline Dachshund

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Re: poppers and ks - the connection?
« Reply #24 on: June 25, 2007, 07:10:52 PM »
Oozing with D-list celebs I'm sure.

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: poppers and ks - the connection?
« Reply #25 on: June 25, 2007, 07:33:04 PM »
D-Listers can be amusing with the proper amount of poppers and vodka.
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: poppers and ks - the connection?
« Reply #26 on: June 25, 2007, 07:40:13 PM »
It was "obliterated" months ago if you'd been paying attention, dearest one.

Well obviously I wouldn't have noticed if you posted it luvvie. I would have just skimmed over the post thinking it was yet another reference to you partying with Ru Paul or having cocktails with Danny Pintauro.

:-*

MtD

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: poppers and ks - the connection?
« Reply #27 on: June 25, 2007, 07:55:04 PM »
Dearest one, I have never once partied with RuPaul.  And I had to google who Danny was. :)

I think you have an entirely misinformed view of my fabulousness.
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: poppers and ks - the connection?
« Reply #28 on: June 25, 2007, 07:59:22 PM »
Not just your fabulousness.

MtD

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: poppers and ks - the connection?
« Reply #29 on: June 25, 2007, 08:09:02 PM »
::noted::

Make sure you Skype about it though.
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Offline Dachshund

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Re: poppers and ks - the connection?
« Reply #30 on: June 25, 2007, 08:12:22 PM »
Oh we will.

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: poppers and ks - the connection?
« Reply #31 on: June 25, 2007, 08:23:44 PM »
Keep a log file and post it later.  I'm sure it would amuse me.
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Offline bimazek

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Re: poppers and ks - the connection?
« Reply #32 on: June 26, 2007, 04:16:02 PM »
here is the photo of an hiv person from 1983, whose nose is completely covered in KS and the nose is completely purple, this person used alot of poppers, so you decide if it is dangerous or not, the other two people are still alive.



no one can honestly look at this photo and say that poppers do not have a great danger

i am not saying that everyone who uses them will get KS, cancer, but they now have proven that the gene that gets unlocked by poppers is exactly the one that helps KS get out of control, as stated at top of this post

honestly, if you want to take that risk , know that you are playing with fire and causing the body great harm

honestly, do you think it was using the wrong brand of facial tissue to blow his nose?

come on guys just be honest, it is a great risk, it is a highly toxic chemical, and proven to unlock the exact gene that encourages KS cancer, and

there is no logical explaination for someone having thier entire nose KS lesion

so

if you must must  must  must  must use poppers

try to limit it to once a year on special occasions

remember in those days in san fran, the use of poppers was very great and extreme so

here we see an extreme case of the entire nose covered with KS

also if you have used popppers you know that the face gets flushed as the chemical is very much in the face and brain and head and lungs

so perhaps the poppers unlocked the gene in areas of the face

we also know that KS

can cover the lungs inside (popper connection)
and internal

« Last Edit: June 27, 2007, 07:00:51 AM by anniebc »

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: poppers and ks - the connection?
« Reply #33 on: June 26, 2007, 07:28:42 PM »
How classy of Bim to prostitute a long dead person's picture to back up his nonsensical campaign about poppers and KS. Notably the picture is unreferenced and not to clinical standard, but Bimazek has never let such courtesies interfere with his bizarre campaigns in the past.

The unfortunate fellow in the picture developed KS (if indeed he had KS) because he was infected with Human Herpes Virus 8 (KSHV) and presumably was co-infected with HIV.

Poppers have nothing to do with it.

MtD

/edited for a typo/
« Last Edit: June 26, 2007, 07:31:22 PM by matty.the.damned »

Offline anniebc

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Re: poppers and ks - the connection?
« Reply #34 on: June 26, 2007, 07:59:09 PM »
Bimazek

I'm going to ask you to remove the link you posted..I really don't think it's appropriate to be posting photo's like that.

If you don't remove it then it will be removed for you..thank you for your cooperation.

Jan
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Offline Bucko

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Re: poppers and ks - the connection?
« Reply #35 on: June 26, 2007, 09:35:03 PM »
Bimazek

I'm going to ask you to remove the link you posted..I really don't think it's appropriate to be posting photo's like that.

If you don't remove it then it will be removed for you..thank you for your cooperation.

Jan

Anyone who lived through the initial scourge will instantly recognize the picture you've posted, Bizzie. How kind of you for bringing it all back to me.

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Offline milker

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Re: poppers and ks - the connection?
« Reply #36 on: June 26, 2007, 10:19:47 PM »
Bim,

not only it is exceptionally insensitive to post this photo, but it doesn't prove your point in any way.

Milker.
mid-dec: stupid ass
mid-jan: seroconversion
mid-feb: poz
mar 07: cd4 432 (35%) vl 54000
may 07: cd4 399 (28%) vl 27760
jul 07: cd4 403 (26%) vl 99241
oct 07: cd4 353 (24%) vl 29993
jan 08: cd4 332 (26%) vl 33308
mar 08: cd4 392 (23%) vl 75548
jun 08: cd4 325 (27%) vl 45880
oct 08: cd4 197 (20%) vl 154000 <== aids diagnosis
nov 2 08 start Atripla
nov 30 08: cd4 478 (23%) vl 1880 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
feb 19 09: cd4 398 (24%) vl 430 getting there!
apr 23 09: cd4 604 (29%) vl 50 woohoo :D :D
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may 27 10: cd4 655 (32%) vl undetectable :D :D

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Offline thunter34

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Re: poppers and ks - the connection?
« Reply #37 on: June 26, 2007, 10:41:42 PM »
Lord God Almighty.  Poppers "once a year and on special occasions"...?  Honey, if the occasion is calling for poppers, it IS special already.  And once a year?  You might be lucky not to find me with one strapped to each nostril when the times are right for it.  By the "logic" presented in this thread, I should be one ENORMOUS KS lesion by now.  Maybe it was the crack that has kept it at bay.  Who's to say? 

And what's with all that "there's no logical reason for having the entire nose KS lesion" nonsense?  From what I have seen, people afflicted with KS can have areas that are especially problematic anywhere on their bodies.

And that photo...oh, yes- that photo.  As offensive as it might strike many on here (and justly so), I have to admit part of me was happy to see it posted at last.  God knows we have all been hearing about it for ages now. 

I'm just baffled at this point.  What the hell?
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Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: poppers and ks - the connection?
« Reply #38 on: June 26, 2007, 11:28:38 PM »
Did I miss something?  Was an entire post removed of Bimazek, Cradle of HIV Sanity?  I don't see the offensive picture.

I think something was deleted because the quote thunter just referenced appears no where else.  I hate when people make statements and then delete them because they posted complete idiocy.
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Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: poppers and ks - the connection?
« Reply #39 on: June 26, 2007, 11:37:51 PM »
Only Goderators can delete entire posts and obviously Goderator Jan's ruling on the matter has now been enforced.

MtD

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: poppers and ks - the connection?
« Reply #40 on: June 26, 2007, 11:49:20 PM »
Why delete the text if only the image posted was offensive?
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Offline Ann

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Re: poppers and ks - the connection?
« Reply #41 on: June 27, 2007, 07:59:53 AM »
Bimazek,

It's time for you to stop the scare-mongering about poppers. The alleged link between KS and poppers has been disproven. Just because you think that a picture of someone with KS on their nose proves a link doesn't make it so.

The main thing people need to keep in mind when using poppers is to not use it at the same time as viagra, because it can cause your blood pressure to drop too low and cause a stroke or even heart attack. Anybody who suffers from circulatory problems or from low blood pressure needs to be careful when using poppers - or don't use them at all. Using poppers can be a serious health risk for those with heart trouble, breathing problems, or anaemia and glaucoma. Always wash off any amyl that spills on your skin and never drink the stuff. In other words, Bim, let's stick to the real problems that poppers might cause and forget the fiction surrounding KS and poppers.

If you don't want to use poppers, that's your own personal decision. We know how you feel about them and there is no reason whatsoever for you to continually tell us. We get it. You don't like poppers. Don't use them then - but quit trying to scare others with misinformation. Enough is enough.

If you choose to continue to beat this dead horse, you just might find yourself with a time out.

Ann

edited for typos
« Last Edit: June 27, 2007, 08:06:41 AM by Ann »
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Offline bobino

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Re: poppers and ks - the connection?
« Reply #42 on: June 27, 2007, 11:58:54 PM »

If I may return to the original subject of this post, I was wondering whether there were any recent legitimate studies regarding the effect of poppers on immune function.  I understand that the link between poppers and KS has been disproved.  But is there research indicating that poppers have an effect on the immune system?  If those kinds of studies exist, I'd be interested in seeing them. 

And bimazek, before you do any more postings like these, try a Valium.

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Re: poppers and ks - the connection?
« Reply #43 on: June 28, 2007, 06:22:03 PM »
If I may return to the original subject of this post, I was wondering whether there were any recent legitimate studies regarding the effect of poppers on immune function.  I understand that the link between poppers and KS has been disproved.  But is there research indicating that poppers have an effect on the immune system?  If those kinds of studies exist, I'd be interested in seeing them. 
Yes, there are studies that have been done mostly on mice, getting them to inhale nitrate fumes for hours and days at different doses. There is only one I saw (but I didn't spend the entire day researching) that said the immunoresponse was triggered when inhaling. Well DUH. Don't need to be a rocket scientist to know that !

If you want to find the studies, don't search for "poppers", look for the scientific terms, like "ISBN+ppm+human+mice" (IsoButylNitrate + parts per million). Take note of the protocol used for the studies, compare them, note the correlations cited vs the causes, etc. You will educate yourself better that way.

Milker.
mid-dec: stupid ass
mid-jan: seroconversion
mid-feb: poz
mar 07: cd4 432 (35%) vl 54000
may 07: cd4 399 (28%) vl 27760
jul 07: cd4 403 (26%) vl 99241
oct 07: cd4 353 (24%) vl 29993
jan 08: cd4 332 (26%) vl 33308
mar 08: cd4 392 (23%) vl 75548
jun 08: cd4 325 (27%) vl 45880
oct 08: cd4 197 (20%) vl 154000 <== aids diagnosis
nov 2 08 start Atripla
nov 30 08: cd4 478 (23%) vl 1880 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
feb 19 09: cd4 398 (24%) vl 430 getting there!
apr 23 09: cd4 604 (29%) vl 50 woohoo :D :D
jul 30 09: cd4 512 (29%) vl undetectable :D :D
may 27 10: cd4 655 (32%) vl undetectable :D :D

Now accepting applications from blowjob ninjasô

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: poppers and ks - the connection?
« Reply #44 on: June 28, 2007, 07:01:05 PM »
Did you know if you google the word "poppers" and AIDS denialist site is the 5th highest return?  Ain't that SUMFIN?
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Offline Tim Horn

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Re: poppers and ks - the connection?
« Reply #45 on: June 28, 2007, 07:20:20 PM »
I'd like to chime in here.

First up, KS is by no means a new neoplasm.  Long before AIDS reared its ugly head, it was a well documented sarcoma in three distinct populations of people: elderly men of Mediterranean or Jewish heritage, organ transplant recipients receiving immune suppression therapy, and young people in Africa. Maybe its ignorance on my part, but I haven't read anything the reveals an epidemic of isobutyl nitrate usage within these populations.

Second, By the mid 1980s, rates of Kaposi's sarcoma were up... way up.  Rates of KS among men who have sex with men in San Francisco were 2000 times higher than the 0.02- to 0.06-per-100,000 rates documented in the general population.  Rates of KS continued through the 1980s and 1990s, suggesting that there wasn't much of a drop-off in usage. It wasn't until the late 1990s, when combination antiretroviral therapy went into widespread use, that KS rates began to dive. Isobutyl nitrate usage continued, but it was repairing the immune system that had the greatest impact. 

Third, it's totally bunk to rely on the trite argument that there's an undeniable connection between KS and isobutyl nitrates, based on the indisputable fact that KS is 20 times more likely to occur among HIV-positive MSM (who are, presumably, more likely to use "poppers") than HIV-positive heterosexuals. But here's the thing: A) this association was refuted by a Multcenter AIDS Cohort Study (MACS) reported in a 1987 issue of the New England Journal of Medicine (Polk BE, Fox R, Brookmeyer S, et al. Predictors of the acquired immune deficiency syndrome developing in a cohort of seropositive homosexual men. N Engl J Med 316:62≠6, 1987); and B) it suggested that an infectious agent -- a virus, perhaps -- may be the cause, taking advantage of a compromised immune system (such as that in HIV-positive people, the elderly, transplant recipients, and those living in Third World countries), to set up shop and begin turning healthy tissue into sarcomas.

As early as 1989, the U.S. Centers for Disease Control suggested that a sexually transmitted sexual agent was likely involved in the etiology of KS.  Research conducted throughout the 1990s -- and beyond -- FIRMLY ESTABLISHED a herpes virus, HHV-8 (also known as Kaposi's sarcoma herpesvirus [KSHV]), as the underlying cause.  In 1995, a study consistently detected HHV-8 in KS lesons taken from AIDS and non-AIDS patients with the sarcoma. In a 1996 study involving 100 Ugandan children with KS -- none of whom, it's safe to assume, were using poppers -- HHV-8 was found in every single sample tested.  

Fourth, yes, there have been studies finding correlations between isobutyl nitrate use and KS. But the fact of the matter is, correlation does not establish causation.  It's unfortunate that, even in the face of sound science demonstrating the causative role of an infectious agent, the tired correlation data still manages to interpreted as fact.  

Tim Horn

edited for typos.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2007, 07:26:50 PM by Tim Horn »

Offline bobino

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Re: poppers and ks - the connection?
« Reply #46 on: June 28, 2007, 08:25:10 PM »

Tim,

Thanks for your post.  We can always count on you for solid info.  I knew that the poppers/KS link had been disproved, but I was genuinely curious about any other immunological effects that inhaled nitrates might have on those of us with HIV.  Sounds like there's not much out there.

And thanks to everyone else who's contributed substantive information to this thread.

John
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Offline Tim Horn

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Re: poppers and ks - the connection?
« Reply #47 on: June 28, 2007, 10:09:05 PM »
John:

You know what? I really don't think there's any denying the science showing that isobytl nitrates CAN and DO have an effect on various immunologic functions... in animal models exposed to significant concentrations of the drug.

Lee Soderberg, MD, PhD, of the University of Arkansas (http://www.uams.edu/mbim/soderberg2.htm) has done a significant amount of laboratory research involving isobutyl nitrites in rodents. While his data has been widely adopted by HIV/AIDS denialists -- the argument that AIDS is caused by drug abuse, not a virus, is legendary -- Soderberg, it seems, has remained disinterested in the politics of the poppers-vs-HIV debate. His scientific work spans decades:   

Soderberg, L.S.F., U. Ponnappan, A. Roy, R. Schafer, and J.B. Barnett.  2004. Production of macrophage IL-1b was inhibited both at the levels of transcription and maturation by caspase-1 following inhalation exposure to isobutyl nitrite.  Toxicol. Lett.  152:47-56.

Ponnappan, U., F.E. Yull, and L.S.F. Soderberg.  2004. Inhaled isobutyl nitrite inhibited macrophage inducible nitric oxide synthase by blocking NFkB signaling and promoting degradation of inducible nitric oxide synthase-2.  Int. Immunopharm. 4:1075-82.

Soderberg, L.S.F. and U. Ponnappan.  2002.  Cytotoxicity by nitrite inhalants is not related to peroxynitrite formation.  Toxicol. Lett. 132:37-45.

Ponnappan, U. and L.S.F. Soderberg. 2001. Inflammatory macrophage nuclear factor-kB and proteasome activity are inhibited following inhalation exposure to inhaled isobutyl nitrite. J. Leukocyte Biol. 69:639-644.

Guo, L.G., D. Rose, J.T. Flick, J.B. Barnett and L.S.F. Soderberg. 2000. Acute exposure to the abused inhalant, isobutyl nitrite, reduced T cell responsiveness and spleen cellularity. Toxicol. Lett. 116:151-158.

Soderberg, L.S.F., A. Roy, J.T. Flick, and J.B. Barnett. 2000. Nitrite inhalants spontaneously liberate nitric oxide, which is not responsible for the immunotoxicity in C57BL/6 mice. Int. J. Immunopharmacol. 22:151-157.

Soderberg, L.S.F. 1999. Increased tumor growth in mice exposed to inhaled isobutyl nitrite. Tox. Lett. 104:35-41.

Soderberg, L.S.F. 1998. Immunomodulation by nitrite inhalants may predispose abusers to AIDS and Kaposiís sarcoma. J. Neuroimmunol. 83:157-161.

Soderberg, L.S.F., A. Roy, and J. B. Barnett. 1998. Isobutyl nitrite liberates nitric oxide which is not responsible for the immunotoxicity of the inhalant. Adv. Exp. Med. Biol., 437:265-268.

Soderberg, L.S.F. and J.T. Flick. 1997. Acute blood toxicity of the abused inhalant, cyclohexyl nitrite. Int. J. Immunopharmacol. 19:305-310.

Soderberg, L.S.F., L.W. Chang, and J.B. Barnett. 1996. Elevated tumor necrosis factor-a and inducible nitric oxide production by alveolar macrophages after exposure to a nitrite inhalant. J. Leukocyte Biol. 60:459-464.

Soderberg, L.S.F., J.T. Flick, and J.B. Barnett. 1996. Acute inhalation exposure to isobutyl nitrite causes nonspecific blood cell destruction. Exp. Hematol. 24:592-596.

Soderberg, L.S.F., J.T. Flick, and J.B. Barnett. 1996. Leukopenia and altered hematopoietic activity in mice exposed to the abused inhalant, isobutyl nitrite. Exp. Hematol. 24:848-853.

That's a pretty impressive bibliography and it's safe to say that Soderberg has shown that isobutytl nitrates can and do have negative biological effects.  But here's the thing -- none of this has been borne out in human HIV studies, in which isobutyl nitrate use was independently associated with faster disease progression (e.g., a more rapid loss of CD4+ cell counts) compared to those who have not ever used the drug. 

Of course, I don't think anyone is arguing that isobutyl nitrates are good for you. I do think it comes with certain health risks -- anyone want to talk about the life-threatening risk associated with combining poppers with erectile dysfunction drugs??? -- but when all is said and done, there's no evidence to show that the human immune system crashes and burns to the point that opportunistic illnesses like KS become a bona fide risk.  Hell, look at crystal methamphetamine... research hasn't been able to document that it has any significant effect on immune function in people living with HIV... but this doesn't mean that the drug is without risks.

Tim Horn   

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: poppers and ks - the connection?
« Reply #48 on: June 28, 2007, 10:17:09 PM »
Mentioning meth and poppers (while I understand your point, Tim) is really comparing apples to oranges.  One is a cheap high that wears off in 1 minute, while the other keeps you up for days preventing you from proper nutrition and HIV adherence, that latter being why it's damaging ultimately (in the context of non-moderated use/addiction) to HIV infected individuals.
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Offline milker

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Re: poppers and ks - the connection?
« Reply #49 on: June 28, 2007, 10:20:12 PM »
John,

when you clean your oven, and you inhale those oven cleaner fumes, you feel bad, uh? Imagine mice inhaling 10 or 100 times what a person would snort, and this for hours and days. This is totally not realistic. There have been reports of people dying of poppers abuse, like every other drug abuse, you can die of it.

So is poppers bad for your health? Sure it is if you abuse it.
Are you going to get KS from it? No, but your state of mind while inhaling poppers may put you at risk for HIV which in turn will compromise your immune system, which in turn will put you at risk for HHV-8.

I remember some time ago a friend of mine was chasing a bee in the house and was spreading R.A.I.D. I was in the bathroom, come back, and drink my coffee, and he screams "OMG OMG YOU JUST DRANK R.A.I.D.!!!! CALL POISON CONTROL!". So I call the 800 number that is on the bottle, explain the situation, and they tell me that given the small amount I drank there is no risk, unless I have a compromised immune system.

It all goes down to this: do you have a compromised immune system? If yes, then you are subject to any kind of infection that a normal immune system would get rid of without you noticing. KS is one of those OIs, and it is the one people use because it is one that is very visual and very scary, and being from the Herpes family, it attacks places like lips and face, which makes it a good candidate for something that you would have had by inhaling something.

Milker.
mid-dec: stupid ass
mid-jan: seroconversion
mid-feb: poz
mar 07: cd4 432 (35%) vl 54000
may 07: cd4 399 (28%) vl 27760
jul 07: cd4 403 (26%) vl 99241
oct 07: cd4 353 (24%) vl 29993
jan 08: cd4 332 (26%) vl 33308
mar 08: cd4 392 (23%) vl 75548
jun 08: cd4 325 (27%) vl 45880
oct 08: cd4 197 (20%) vl 154000 <== aids diagnosis
nov 2 08 start Atripla
nov 30 08: cd4 478 (23%) vl 1880 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
feb 19 09: cd4 398 (24%) vl 430 getting there!
apr 23 09: cd4 604 (29%) vl 50 woohoo :D :D
jul 30 09: cd4 512 (29%) vl undetectable :D :D
may 27 10: cd4 655 (32%) vl undetectable :D :D

Now accepting applications from blowjob ninjasô

 


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