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Author Topic: What about us, Mrs Bush? GRRRRRRRRRR  (Read 11284 times)

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Offline Jeffreyj

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What about us, Mrs Bush? GRRRRRRRRRR
« on: June 20, 2007, 07:40:08 AM »
I am sitting here watching CNN interview Laura Bush. She is talking about Aids in Africa, which is all well and good. It's awesome.

I have a question:  What about the million PLUS of hiv+ people here, in the USA?

Ryan White budget has been cut, thanks to your husband.  Many programs ac cross the entire USA have been cut.


What the hell about US?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Could you at least just acknowledge our existence? Do you know we are here?
Positive since 1985

Offline Pippet

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  • Life is drawing without an eraser.
Re: What about us, Mrs Bush? GRRRRRRRRRR
« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2007, 08:17:00 AM »
Well said.
Even with health insurance I find it a struggle to afford all my meds and doc visits.  I have watched several friends pass away begging for treatment and waiting for SSI.
I am in total support of ANY movement, from this government, in the right direction.  But this isn't just an African disease.  It exists everywhere and effects all cultures. 
If the Bushes want to spend TRILLIONS on war, how about a world war on HIV???? 

Thanks for pushing my buttons before my first cup of coffee....
PIP
Diagnosed Aug. 2006
CD4 246, VL 202,000
Started Truvada/ Viramune 11-23-06
Taken off meds 12-06-06 (Bad Rash)
Started Truvada/ Reyataz, Norvir 1-18-07
Taken off Norvir 3-1-07 (Jaundice)
New doc 3-22-07
CD4 229  VL 1031
My latest cocktail...  Truvada and Kaletra (4-6-07)
CD4 289 VL 350 (5-15-07)
CD4 308 VL 115 (8-06-07)
CD4 349 VL 511 (11-5-07)
CD4 489 VL 383 (2-4-08)
CD4 483 VL <50 (5-6-08) YEAH
CD4 545 VL 108 (9-12-08)
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CD4 385 VL <48 (9-15-09)
CD4 609 VL  159 (2-28-10)

Offline mjmel

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Re: What about us, Mrs Bush? GRRRRRRRRRR
« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2007, 08:40:55 AM »
My thoughts on her actions are:
1. Keeping up appearances
2. Damage control

Sorry. I'm jaded and disgusted with this administration.
Mike

Offline woodshere

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  • ain't no shame in my game
Re: What about us, Mrs Bush? GRRRRRRRRRR
« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2007, 08:41:44 AM »
If the Bushes want to spend TRILLIONS on war, how about a world war on HIV???? 

Well if they were to conduct a world war on HIV the same way as the war on terror or in Iraq, I think we wouldn't be much better.  I am not sure I would want to trust the incompetent dumb fucks in this administration to wage a war on anything.

It would be nice to see the same attention paid to HIV/AIDS not only in America but throughout the world as is being paid to those who are infected in Africa.
"Let us give pubicity to HV/AIDS and not hide it..." "One of the things destroying people with AIDS is the stigma we attach to it."   Nelson Mandela

Offline Grinch

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Re: What about us, Mrs Bush? GRRRRRRRRRR
« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2007, 09:08:12 AM »
If you call for an end to taking care of others until your own are taken care of, you're called a xenephobic racist.
If you call for diverting the money elsewhere you're labeled un-caring of your own people.
That whole use war funds thing, the war is what 5 years long?  What about the 20 years prior to that?
How exactly should we deal with this as a country?
When <Insert name of any war here> ended, we didn't suddenly have a huge surplus of cash that was used to fix the worlds problems.  What makes everyone think we will this time?

For the record; I'm all for taking care of our own first and foremost.  Kind of like real life. I give to others, and I care about others, but you better believe my family gets what it needs, long before I give a portion of the finite funds that enter my budget to someone else. 

Offline dixieman

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Re: What about us, Mrs Bush? GRRRRRRRRRR
« Reply #5 on: June 20, 2007, 02:05:53 PM »
The United States spends over 4 trillion dollars on health care for other nations... and 72 billion on our own... Why not turn the numbers around? and take care of our own citizens first... and help the other nations with whats left? FIGURE?

Offline woodshere

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  • ain't no shame in my game
Re: What about us, Mrs Bush? GRRRRRRRRRR
« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2007, 02:20:29 PM »
The United States spends over 4 trillion dollars on health care for other nations... and 72 billion on our own... Why not turn the numbers around? and take care of our own citizens first... and help the other nations with whats left? FIGURE?

WOW, is this right?  I would love to know where the figure came from.
"Let us give pubicity to HV/AIDS and not hide it..." "One of the things destroying people with AIDS is the stigma we attach to it."   Nelson Mandela

Offline dixieman

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Re: What about us, Mrs Bush? GRRRRRRRRRR
« Reply #7 on: June 20, 2007, 02:39:24 PM »
Its public knowlege... plus it helps to have friends who work in the system bitching all the time... in the arts... the government usally makes cuts during budget crisis... but, if one checks out the total budget for the United States etc... the arts ratio is only 2 inches in length out of the length of a major football  field... is that not amazing... oh and yes I am a gov employee... and everyone Blames Bush... Well I'm not a fan... but, look at what he was left with... Clinton's Administration was not better... One needs to look at our do nothing senators... representatives etc... but, Americans are complacent ... wheres the National Health Care plan that preceding administrations have promised...??? every election... Health Care, Education, budgeting the budget... If yall are living off the system... I want to warn you.... Economic Collapse... depression is just around the corner....I do not know what were going to do... be prepared...

Offline Lisa

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Re: What about us, Mrs Bush? GRRRRRRRRRR
« Reply #8 on: June 20, 2007, 02:39:42 PM »
Hey Jeffrey,
I got a bug up my ass back in Feb/Mar about this very same issue, and began an acitivism thread over in "Activism".......we were all inspired, and fired up, but the interest was a bit lack luster.
Never the less, a whole website was created(millionaidsmarch.org), and I respectfully kept it in the Acivism forum. I still feel quite strongly about this very issue, but my brain capacity is significantly limited due to my dementia issues. Please read the thread titled "March on Washington", and see if your sentiments are catapulted into a mode of action.
I never meant to drop the ball, but my head apparently has different plans independant of my will in these last few months.
Please see for yourself.
RSVP
No Fear  No Shame  No Stigma
Happiness is not getting what you want, but wanting what you have.

Offline dixieman

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Re: What about us, Mrs Bush? GRRRRRRRRRR
« Reply #9 on: June 20, 2007, 03:05:10 PM »
heres a good site to check out the budget...   www.whitehouse.gov/omb

Offline dixieman

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Re: What about us, Mrs Bush? GRRRRRRRRRR
« Reply #10 on: June 20, 2007, 03:07:25 PM »
Lisa, I'll check that out... thanks

Offline David_CA

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Re: What about us, Mrs Bush? GRRRRRRRRRR
« Reply #11 on: June 20, 2007, 03:20:37 PM »
Helping poor, undeveloped countries looks good.  Helping 'fornicators' and those who practice The Abomination (homosexuality) doesn't.

David
Black Friday 03-03-2006
03-23-06 CD4 359 @27.4% VL 75,938
06-01-06 CD4 462 @24.3% VL > 100,000
08-15-06 CD4 388 @22.8% VL >  "
10-21-06 CD4 285 @21.9% VL >  "
  Atripla started 12-01-2006
01-08-07 CD4 429 @26.8% VL 1872!
05-08-07 CD4 478 @28.1% VL 740
08-03-07 CD4 509 @31.8% VL 370
11-06-07 CD4 570 @30.0% VL 140
02-21-08 CD4 648 @32.4% VL 600
05-19-08 CD4 695 @33.1% VL < 48 undetectable!
08-21-08 CD4 725 @34.5%
11-11-08 CD4 672 @39.5%
02-11-09 CD4 773 @36.8%
05-11-09 CD4 615 @36.2%
08-19-09 CD4 770 @38.5%
11-19-09 CD4 944 @33.7%
02-17-10 CD4 678 @39.9%  
06-03-10 CD4 768 @34.9%
09-21-10 CD4 685 @40.3%
01-10-11 CD4 908 @36.3%
05-23-11 CD4 846 @36.8% VL 80
02-13-12 CD4 911 @41.4% VL<20
You must be the change you want to see in the world.  Mahatma Gandhi

Offline jack

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  • fomerly the loser known as Jake
Re: What about us, Mrs Bush? GRRRRRRRRRR
« Reply #12 on: June 20, 2007, 03:37:30 PM »
Can anyone name an administration they were happy with? I can't. There are so many people who want something from the government,and our corrupt pols dont have the balls or ethics to tell us,you cant have that cause we cant afford it. They keep making more promises they can never deliver on. We need a leader with some balls(not in the physical sense)to explain to the public the simple facts of economics 101, but both sides continue to live in some fantasy world if only to satisfy their base and get re elected. We are on the ole slippery slope,more people appear to believe that government should take care them by confiscating wealth from the producers than by finding a way to get it on their own. The truth is government can never satisfy all your wants and needs,and the fact that they are promising that can only lead to totalitarianism. When the masses become totally dissatisfied because the  pols fail to deliver on their promises,those masses will look to some kind of charismatic figure to save them and the producers will look for some kind of iron hand to bring sanity and order back, and either way we all are fucked.
 Do Rubin and Dems really believe that tax  cuts havent improved economy and stock market? Do they still insist that lower taxes dont increase tax receipts? On the other hand you have W and republicans spending more money than any administration in history,of course that is true of every administration. There never has been one that has spent less than the one before it,but they all campaigned on spending cuts.
If there is one single US citizen who can't access hiv meds because of cost or whatever,we shouldnt be funding any overseas ventures.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2007, 03:39:17 PM by jack »

Offline pozattitude

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    • to find out more about me....
Re: What about us, Mrs Bush? GRRRRRRRRRR
« Reply #13 on: June 20, 2007, 05:18:37 PM »
Don't you know that the White House considers the African HIV epidemic to be "innocents victims" while us here in the USA are viewed mostly as a bunch of homosexuals and I.V drug users who do not fall under the "christian doctrine" of George W Bush and company?
I'm not surprised at all!  Remember Regan didn't say the word AIDS until well into the last of his 2nd term?

I hate  >:( George W BUSH and all that relates to him

http://www.impeachbush.org/site/PageServer
« Last Edit: June 21, 2007, 12:57:32 AM by pozattitude »
POSITIVE PEDALERS... We are a group of people living with HIV/AIDS, eliminating stigma through our positive public example.

Offline whizzer

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Re: What about us, Mrs Bush? GRRRRRRRRRR
« Reply #14 on: June 20, 2007, 09:19:54 PM »
In Africa HIV is primarily a disease of heterosexuals, where it is commonly passed bi-directionally between women and men.

In the West it is primarily a disease of homosexuals and drug addicts, and passed primarily in one direction during heterosexual sex:  from the sperm depositor to the sperm receiver.

The powers-that-be care more about the folks in Africa because they are heterosexual and somehow viewed as more innocent, and also because they see a risk to themselves from the kind of HIV that is in Africa.

When a critical mass of HIV infected heterosexuals is reached in the US, then HIV here will become important to them.  Till then, it's like David said, they deep down don't give a shit.


Offline mjmel

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Re: What about us, Mrs Bush? GRRRRRRRRRR
« Reply #15 on: June 20, 2007, 09:59:07 PM »
Its public knowledge... plus it helps to have friends who work in the system bitching all the time... in the arts... the government usually makes cuts during budget crisis... but, if one checks out the total budget for the United States etc... the arts ratio is only 2 inches in length out of the length of a major football  field... is that not amazing... oh and yes I am a gov employee... and everyone Blames Bush... Well I'm not a fan... but, look at what he was left with... Clinton's Administration was not better... One needs to look at our do nothing senators... representatives etc... but, Americans are complacent ... wheres the National Health Care plan that preceding administrations have promised...??? every election... Health Care, Education, budgeting the budget... If yall are living off the system... I want to warn you.... Economic Collapse... depression is just around the corner....I do not know what were going to do... be prepared...

Agreed. I see this coming for us. It's not going to be pretty for anyone in lower income brackets and the middle class will struggle as the poor do now. But people will be pissed because of it! Perhaps THEN things will get done to be rid of lying, cheating and neglectful politicians.

Give me Clinton over this pigeon. Anyday! The Clinton administration was not the BEST but it was much BETTER......... he did pull us out of a huge deficit and we were in the black. Didn't take long for the current leader and his administration to guzzle it up and bury us in debt for years to come!
xxx,
Mike

Offline ndrew

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  • ....-.-.-.-.-.....
Re: What about us, Mrs Bush? GRRRRRRRRRR
« Reply #16 on: June 21, 2007, 12:32:23 AM »
Word One-

Genocide: the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or ethnic group.

Word Two-

Homophobia: prejudice against (fear or dislike of) homosexual people and homosexuality.

History is clear on how this society treats GLBT people.

Things have changed some, but I share your "GRRRRRRR."

Drew

Offline milker

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Re: What about us, Mrs Bush? GRRRRRRRRRR
« Reply #17 on: June 21, 2007, 12:35:50 AM »
When str8 people get tested, we may have real figures.

The main problem is that this is still viewed as a gay disease. Gays are more likely to get tested compared to str8 people. I don't know many str8 dudes that fuck with a condom. How many are going for an HIV test every 6 months compared to gay people? I'd guess less than 5 %.

Milker.
mid-dec: stupid ass
mid-jan: seroconversion
mid-feb: poz
mar 07: cd4 432 (35%) vl 54000
may 07: cd4 399 (28%) vl 27760
jul 07: cd4 403 (26%) vl 99241
oct 07: cd4 353 (24%) vl 29993
jan 08: cd4 332 (26%) vl 33308
mar 08: cd4 392 (23%) vl 75548
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oct 08: cd4 197 (20%) vl 154000 <== aids diagnosis
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Now accepting applications from blowjob ninjas™

Offline Jeffreyj

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Re: What about us, Mrs Bush? GRRRRRRRRRR
« Reply #18 on: June 21, 2007, 01:37:10 AM »
It makes me want to puke when I talk to guys in their early 20's, and they tell me they have had virtually NO EDUCATION on how HIV is transmitted or even what the hell it is.

This is a freakin disgrace.

Is educating our future generations about HIV asking too much?

Someone has to wake up. There is NO leadership in this country on EITHER side of the isle.

It really is disgusting that we don't take care of our own.

I am not asking for much. Just educate people about HIV Aids. Is this a big deal?

We truly are going to hell in a hand basket. It is becoming more and more embarrassing to be an American each day this idiot is in office.

I can't even list all of the scandals in D.C it would take too long. Thanks George for setting our country back at least 20 years.
You suck.
Positive since 1985

Offline randym431

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Re: What about us, Mrs Bush? GRRRRRRRRRR
« Reply #19 on: June 21, 2007, 08:37:52 AM »
2008 is coming before we know it. Talk to your friends, family, co workers, everyone you can. Do the home work in knowing who is just "another Bush", and who really lives in todays reality. Then, vote! God forbid we get another thick head in there, like Mitt Romney, but it could happen.  :o

Offline carousel

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Re: What about us, Mrs Bush? GRRRRRRRRRR
« Reply #20 on: June 21, 2007, 08:57:42 AM »
The United States spends over 4 trillion dollars on health care for other nations... and 72 billion on our own... Why not turn the numbers around? and take care of our own citizens first... and help the other nations with whats left? FIGURE?

Sorry, but where are you getting these figures from?  It is simply untrue.

What is happening in Africa cannot simply be ignored by other nations.  HIV has decimated Africa in ways that we in the west can only imagine and they cannot afford the inflated drug prices for widespread health care. 

To turn our backs on them is shameful.

Offline Central79

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Re: What about us, Mrs Bush? GRRRRRRRRRR
« Reply #21 on: June 21, 2007, 09:35:42 AM »
I'm with carousel - those figures are wrong.

And I'm really uncomfortable with the idea that the choice for the US is either between a) helping people at home or b) foreign aid.

The whole of the developed world only gave $106 billion in foreign aid in 2006, a drop of about 5.5% on the previous year and the first drop in foreign aid since 1997. So how can the US be giving $4 trillion alone? The actual figure in aid from the US, is approximately $22 billion in aid in 2006.

Source: http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRelated/Debt/USAid.asp#ForeignAidNumbersinChartsandGraphs

In terms of dollars, the US spends the most. In terms of % of GDP, the US spends the least out of the G8 nations - only 0.07% of it's GDP. It's committed to spend 0.7% of GDP. Is that really leading the free world? Of course, not many developed nations are hitting this target, but some are.

You could cut that aid, I guess. But I don't think it would make a dent in a healthcare system as big at the US. In 2003 the US spent 15.2% of GDP on health, or some $1.67 trillion. The US now spends more on healthcare then it does on food.

http://www.kff.org/insurance/snapshot/chcm010307oth.cfm

Despite spending more than 25% more per person on healthcare than the next highest spending country, the US doesn't perform better in healthcare outcomes - people aren't any healthier, or live any longer. Personally I think this is because of massive inequalities in the US system, which are not going to be fixed by taking $22 billion away from people in the developing world.

Maybe the US needs to start getting more out of it's 1.67 billion on healthcare, before pleading poverty?

M.
Diagnosed January 2006
26/1/06 - 860 (22%), VL > 500,000
24/4/06 - 820 (24.6%), VL 158,000
13/7/06 - 840 (22%), VL 268,000
1/11/06 - 680 (21%), VL 93,100
29/1/07 - 1,020 (27.5%), VL 46,500
15/5/07 - 1,140 (22.8%), VL not done.
13/10/07 - 759 (23.2%), VL 170,000
6/11/07 - 630 (25%), VL 19,324
14/1/08 - 650 (21%), VL 16,192
15/4/08 - 590 (21%), VL 40, 832

Offline David_CA

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Re: What about us, Mrs Bush? GRRRRRRRRRR
« Reply #22 on: June 21, 2007, 10:54:07 AM »
To turn our backs on them is shameful.

I don't think anybody's talking about ignoring poorer countries.  I think the point is that IF we're willing to help other countries, we SHOULD be willing to help our own and not have people dying on waiting lists.  Duh!

David
Black Friday 03-03-2006
03-23-06 CD4 359 @27.4% VL 75,938
06-01-06 CD4 462 @24.3% VL > 100,000
08-15-06 CD4 388 @22.8% VL >  "
10-21-06 CD4 285 @21.9% VL >  "
  Atripla started 12-01-2006
01-08-07 CD4 429 @26.8% VL 1872!
05-08-07 CD4 478 @28.1% VL 740
08-03-07 CD4 509 @31.8% VL 370
11-06-07 CD4 570 @30.0% VL 140
02-21-08 CD4 648 @32.4% VL 600
05-19-08 CD4 695 @33.1% VL < 48 undetectable!
08-21-08 CD4 725 @34.5%
11-11-08 CD4 672 @39.5%
02-11-09 CD4 773 @36.8%
05-11-09 CD4 615 @36.2%
08-19-09 CD4 770 @38.5%
11-19-09 CD4 944 @33.7%
02-17-10 CD4 678 @39.9%  
06-03-10 CD4 768 @34.9%
09-21-10 CD4 685 @40.3%
01-10-11 CD4 908 @36.3%
05-23-11 CD4 846 @36.8% VL 80
02-13-12 CD4 911 @41.4% VL<20
You must be the change you want to see in the world.  Mahatma Gandhi

Offline dixieman

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Re: What about us, Mrs Bush? GRRRRRRRRRR
« Reply #23 on: June 21, 2007, 11:07:12 AM »
sorry... weve spent 4 trillion overall on health care under foriegn policy for other nations...
 and only 72 billion on our own... overall... not per year... get the numbers...

 Our national dept is 9 trillion... on paper work... with current depts on money borrowed ...are real dept figure is 50 trillion dollars... There has never been a Balanced budget no matter what administration has been in office... its all played numbers to look so... we are paying interest on interest on interest... these figures are not just for hiv... read...

 also when madatory testing occurs true numbers on  how many americans turn out poz... the numbers are going to be 10 times than those at present... and or suggested figures... the United States out of all industrial nations has the largest percentage of std rates in the world... 3 times more than any other industrial nation...

 if your living from pay day to pay day.. if your on ssdi there will be testing to see if your able to work and many people will fall through the cracks.... because the cracks are getting larger...there is no national health care system and I'm sorry it looks as if there will never be in this country because were too busy taking care of other nations... This country has the facade of government ran by the people for the people but, its controlled by corporations for corporations and special interest... our politicians are mere puppets
argue all you want... the truth hurts...

Offline jack

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  • fomerly the loser known as Jake
Re: What about us, Mrs Bush? GRRRRRRRRRR
« Reply #24 on: June 21, 2007, 11:13:40 AM »
If you are in your 20s and you dont know the facts on HIV and Aids, you must have missed school or been high. My kids learned about hiv and aids in school before they even knew what sex was.
I dont mean to be heartless and I do feel compassion for anyone who has HIV but lets face facts, anyone in the USA who gets HIV today knew the risks, the same as anyone smoking cigs,knows they will die from smoking them, yet people still smoke and people still have unsafe sex. Individuals are free to do this,but they do know the risks they are taking. It wasnt education that stopped people from smoking, its seeing your relatives and friends die. Those voice boxes used to freak me out,yet I still smoked. How fucing stupid is that?
I often think the big problem is we all feel invincible when we are young and stupid,we think nothing can stop us and nothing bad will happen to us. Some of us like myself suffer from this state of mind longer than others.


Offline Cliff

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Re: What about us, Mrs Bush? GRRRRRRRRRR
« Reply #25 on: June 21, 2007, 11:24:40 AM »
I think the message here needs to be better communicated.  Some of the messages in this thread does seem imply that the US government shouldn't give a dime to other nations, which I think is a shame because it sounds very selfish.

I still don't understand the $4 trillion vs $72 billion (even if it's meant to be cumulative).  The entire US federal budget is only $3 trillion, so we can't be sending $4 trillion to other nations (even over a 10-20 year period).  Our foreign aid budget is only between $20-30 billion a year.  So it's not right for Americans to claim that the US government does more for foreigners than it does for Americans, as nothing could be further from the truth.  Americans send less abroad (per capita) than any other developed nation.  We should be the last ones arguing that we do too much for poor countries.

I believe in a similar thread, I noted that the government spends about $22 billion a year on HIV/AIDS, of which $2 billion or so goes to foreign nations.  So 1 million people living with HIV in the US are getting $22 billion a year, while the other 39 million outside the US are getting $2 billion.  

The US could do more for people living with HIV/AIDS in the America, but to wrap that discussion up in a them vs us debate doesn't help the situation, it only puts people off as it comes across as very divisive and selfish.  Even if the US didn't give a dime to other nations, we still wouldn't have universal healthcare and we would probably still have waiting lists.  That extra $20-30 billion would just go to rebuilding a highway or building 2 or 3 nuclear subs.

Offline Grinch

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Re: What about us, Mrs Bush? GRRRRRRRRRR
« Reply #26 on: June 21, 2007, 11:55:58 AM »
Quote
I believe in a similar thread, I noted that the government spends about $22 billion a year on HIV/AIDS, of which $2 billion or so goes to foreign nations.  So 1 million people living with HIV in the US are getting $22 billion a year, while the other 39 million outside the US are getting $2 billion. 

While I might not agree that $22 billion is enough. (In my opinion it clearly isn't) $2 billion sent outside the US is nearly 10%.  Would you give more than 10% of your health care budget to help a neighbor if your family needed medicine?

Where would you draw the line between taking care of your own and taking care of others? 20%? 50%?
How would you explain to your child.  I'm sorry, we don't have the money for your medicine, we gave it to the neighbor."

I really don't see the difference between looking at it as our family vs the country.

Offline woodshere

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Re: What about us, Mrs Bush? GRRRRRRRRRR
« Reply #27 on: June 21, 2007, 12:08:41 PM »
While I might not agree that $22 billion is enough. (In my opinion it clearly isn't) $2 billion sent outside the US is nearly 10%.  Would you give more than 10% of your health care budget to help a neighbor if your family needed medicine?

Where would you draw the line between taking care of your own and taking care of others? 20%? 50%?
How would you explain to your child.  I'm sorry, we don't have the money for your medicine, we gave it to the neighbor."

I really don't see the difference between looking at it as our family vs the country.


GREAT post!!!
"Let us give pubicity to HV/AIDS and not hide it..." "One of the things destroying people with AIDS is the stigma we attach to it."   Nelson Mandela

Offline Cliff

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Re: What about us, Mrs Bush? GRRRRRRRRRR
« Reply #28 on: June 21, 2007, 12:09:39 PM »
I think 10% of our HIV/AIDS budget is reasonable, if not on the low side, considering 98% of the people living with HIV are outside the US.  But to be clear, that is NOT 10% of our health care budget as you say, since the US spends over $2 trillion a year on health care.

If the US was a poor country, I could see your point.  But we're not.  The US is the wealthiest and most developed large nation in the world.  We can (and should) contribute to global issues.  So you're analogy isn't quite on point Grinch.  

A better analogy would be a family making $200,000 a year.  They spend their income living in a nice two story, 25k sq foot home, driving two  BMW's, holding membership at two country clubs, shopping in Paris twice a year, going to their weekend home once a month, and taking lavish vacations in the Carribean every summer.  The parents then donate $5 a year to charity and tell their child that they don't have enough to pay for their meds.  Actually they do have enough to pay for their child's medicine and still give $500 or even $1,000 a year to charity...they just chose to spend their money on other things.  The child shouldn't get mad at his parents for giving $5 to charity, she should get mad at her parents for driving BMW's, sipping mint juleps at the country club and flying off to Paris.

Taking issue with foreign aid, is missing the point.  The US can fully fund HIV/AIDS programes and still double its foreign aid budget, without even so much as batting an eye.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2007, 12:13:07 PM by Cliff »

Offline milker

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Re: What about us, Mrs Bush? GRRRRRRRRRR
« Reply #29 on: June 21, 2007, 12:28:48 PM »
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Offline jack

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Re: What about us, Mrs Bush? GRRRRRRRRRR
« Reply #30 on: June 21, 2007, 12:41:30 PM »
Dear Cliff, Do you mean a family making 2million a year or 200,000. I can tell you for a fact that any family who has children and income under 300k year is living wildly beyond their means if they  have more than one home,more than one BMW,and is taking more than one extravagant vacation to Europe each year.
I have belonged to 2 country clubs at one time but was making a hell of lot more than 200k. I only know two people who have 25k square foot homes.
200grand doesnt get you very far.
Maybe I missed your point. Were you comparing our government spending to that of a family making 200k living far beyond its means. Sorry.

Offline Cliff

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Re: What about us, Mrs Bush? GRRRRRRRRRR
« Reply #31 on: June 21, 2007, 12:47:52 PM »
The point is that the family is choosing to spend their money on other things and that their charity donations isn't what's causing the child to not have meds.

But yes, partially living above their means....though you need not make more than 200-300k a year to afford two BMW's.  I suppose it depends on the car...two 7 series would be a stretch.  But not a 5 and a 3.

25000 sq should be 2500.

Offline Grinch

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Re: What about us, Mrs Bush? GRRRRRRRRRR
« Reply #32 on: June 21, 2007, 03:45:42 PM »
Cliff, I guess I don't understand.  In one sentence you said the US Government's Health care budget is $22 billion.  Where did 2 Trillion come from?

I'm very sorry that 98% of the people with HIV are out side the US. Unfortunately we can not be responsible for all of them.  I agree 10% is reasonable.  What some don't seem to get is 10% is 10%  whether thats 10% of a million or 10% of a trillion.  One could argue that in a fair world the US has 2% of the people with HIV, well we'll pay 2% of the bill.  But since our average economy is higher OK we'll pay double.  Here you go 4% of the governments medical budget.

My point is when do we stop taking care of our own family? Do you currently give 10% to charity?  Would you consider doing so if your child had to go with out?  You talk about luxuries like cars.  OK what government program is luxuries?  Which one would you cut?  I once made the statement we should cut spending on things like funding for Arts.  You'd have thought I was asking to club baby kittens.

I completely disagree with our elected officials expenditures and priorities but I recognize that the income of the government is finite. It is limited by how much of our money they take.  If I take money to give another country it's got to come from some where.  Personally. I don't have any more to give.  Do you?

Offline dixieman

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Re: What about us, Mrs Bush? GRRRRRRRRRR
« Reply #33 on: June 21, 2007, 04:14:16 PM »
Grinch, you do not know how little is spent on the arts from the feds in the United States... NEA was approved for 160 million dollars to be given out from the federal government this is a 35 million dollar increase from last year to be distributed to all 50 states through grants...

160 million total

the arts bring in revenue of more than 40 billion dollars per year... 1,300,000 people are employed in the arts...

I've looked at graphs on how much this country spends out of the federal budget on the arts and it amounts to a 2inch hair in a football field... so surely there are other things to cut from the budget...
 I say cut out welfare alltogether...

Offline pozattitude

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Re: What about us, Mrs Bush? GRRRRRRRRRR
« Reply #34 on: June 21, 2007, 04:26:40 PM »
Cliff,

I don't thing you understood the main point of this thread.
The bottom line is that there are too many people living in the USA who do not have access to propper medical care.  I have nothing against helping others, I give over 10% of my annual income to charity, but I will take care of my "home" before I help the "neighbor".
I am lucky to have a good job and access the medical treatment I need. 
If the US was a poor country, I could see your point. But we're not. The US is the wealthiest and most developed large nation in the world.  
You just pointed out another reason why no one in this country should go without the propper medical treatment they need.

Rich
POSITIVE PEDALERS... We are a group of people living with HIV/AIDS, eliminating stigma through our positive public example.

Offline Grinch

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Re: What about us, Mrs Bush? GRRRRRRRRRR
« Reply #35 on: June 21, 2007, 04:35:30 PM »
Ok Dixieman,  that makes my point. What you consider a necessity other consider an luxury. 
The arts does make billions, it does employ millions. So if it makes so much why give it more money?

I personally don't want my money going to finance someones play or movie but Congress says thats what the people want, so give it to them.

You chose to cut welfare, OK  thats not a necessity to you. I'd duck and cover though there's a shitstorm about to fall on your head for making that statement though.

Thats another topic. We shouldn't hijack this thread.

My question is, what percentage of the government budget for heathcare should go to help those not in our country, when clearly we can't even take care of our own?
More importantly Why would we let our own family do without while screaming that we should take care of the neighbors?  If Bono and sting and those that make millions want to give 10% or 50% let them. If Joe down the street making $20k wants to give 10% let him.  It's the same thing. I'll continue giving my 5 - 10% every year to others.  I'll continue to volunteer to assist those with Cancer. Don't doubt for a minute if my wife needed medicine we couldn't afford those funds get cut.  Thats how I run my house and thats how I'd run my country if you folks made me king.

Offline RapidRod

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Re: What about us, Mrs Bush? GRRRRRRRRRR
« Reply #36 on: June 21, 2007, 04:38:13 PM »
dixieman, youre statement, "I say cut out welfare alltogether" doesn't make any sense as to the discussion of this topic.

Offline dixieman

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Re: What about us, Mrs Bush? GRRRRRRRRRR
« Reply #37 on: June 21, 2007, 05:09:26 PM »
check out other countries in the industrial world on the percentage funded out of their governments budget spent on the arts... the arts are not a luxury... it affects everything around you.. from museums,  design, cars, homes, clothing, entertainment, culture... etc... and even how those pills are designed that we must consume...everyday items are designed...art creates thinking...  you spend money to make money.... and if money was not granted to states etc... the arts would be a luxury which only a few could enjoy...

now when I stated cut out welfare... I ment generational welfare... able body people who are capable of working... Clinton's admin passed limits on this to reform...

when I stated before we keep giving to other countries its like take care of our own first and if there is money left over... I'd be more than happy to help... charity begins at home...

Africa has some of the greatest resources available... let those nations distribute the wealth to the people... Right............

Offline jack

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Re: What about us, Mrs Bush? GRRRRRRRRRR
« Reply #38 on: June 21, 2007, 06:04:46 PM »
I love it, end welfare and federally funded arts, but unfortunately its too late for that. The moment any government program that involves someone getting someone elses money via taxes is started it is too late. Try and find a government program that has been stopped.  We are at a very dangerous point in the US,because at some point  the number of people benefitting from federal entitlements is going to outnumber those who understand economics 101 and the benefit of lower taxes. The people will clamor for even higher taxes on those most productive citizens who already pay the great majority of all taxes, and at some point the golden goose is cooked. I guess we are OK as long as US rules the world and we can play games with our currency and print money at will.

Offline David_CA

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Re: What about us, Mrs Bush? GRRRRRRRRRR
« Reply #39 on: June 21, 2007, 07:00:07 PM »
I am sitting here watching CNN interview Laura Bush. She is talking about Aids in Africa, which is all well and good. It's awesome.

I have a question:  What about the million PLUS of hiv+ people here, in the USA?

Ryan White budget has been cut, thanks to your husband.  Many programs ac cross the entire USA have been cut.
What the hell about US?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Could you at least just acknowledge our existence? Do you know we are here?

I quoted Jeffreyj's original post for convenience.  This thread has gone WAY off topic. 
Black Friday 03-03-2006
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Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: What about us, Mrs Bush? GRRRRRRRRRR
« Reply #40 on: June 21, 2007, 07:02:42 PM »
I dunno David. Jeffrey posted in part about Ryan White and Grinch and Jack want Ryan White abolished. Seems on topic to me.

MtD

Offline Cliff

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Re: What about us, Mrs Bush? GRRRRRRRRRR
« Reply #41 on: June 21, 2007, 09:01:05 PM »
Cliff, I guess I don't understand.  In one sentence you said the US Government's Health care budget is $22 billion.  Where did 2 Trillion come from?
The $22 billion is what the federal government spends on HIV/AIDS programs, (ADAP/Ryan White, research, etc..).  The $2 trillion is what the US spends on health care as a whole, (not just on HIV/AIDS related treatment).

I'm very sorry that 98% of the people with HIV are out side the US. Unfortunately we can not be responsible for all of them. 
I think we have a shared responsibility.  No, the US shouldn't be solely responsible, but as a wealthy nation, I think it's wrong to turn our backs on other people just because they aren't our citizens.  All the wealthy nations have some responsibility, as do the governments of the developing nations.  It's no differnet than having a shared responsibility to help the poor in our own countries.

You talk about luxuries like cars.  OK what government program is luxuries?  Which one would you cut?
I would cut defense and farm subsidies.  We spend $27 billion a year on agriculture in the US.  Why?  Let the farmers fend for themselves, like every other industry in the country.  We don't subsidise the car industry and looking at how bad they are doing and how many jobs are being lost there.  We don't subsidise other manufacturing industries, despite losses in jobs.  Why should farming be any different.  This isn't the 1920's, farming isn't that significant to the job market anymore.  We spend $700 billion a year on defense.  Why?  To overpay defense contractors for missiles and fighter jets, while the industry announce record profits?  We spend a $1 billion a year on energy programs.  Why?  We are still dependent on the middle east for our energy needs.  What is that billion getting us?

Offline dtwpuck

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Re: What about us, Mrs Bush? GRRRRRRRRRR
« Reply #42 on: June 21, 2007, 09:02:23 PM »
Silly, HIV in America is a Democrat disease.  There are only a smattering of people who would vote for Laura's sperm donor who are poz, and I am sure the Republinistas would be happy if they weren't so vocal about being so supportive while being so embarrassingly gay.   

Also, everyone knows that black people in Africa are safe to care about.  You could get called the most horrifying insult of all if you show support for black people in Amerika:  liberal.
Floating through the void in the caress of two giant pink lobsters named Esmerelda and Keith.

Offline Jeffreyj

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Re: What about us, Mrs Bush? GRRRRRRRRRR
« Reply #43 on: June 21, 2007, 09:02:40 PM »
Dear God, abolish Ryan White? I'm running to the Canadian Border!
Positive since 1985

Offline RapidRod

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Re: What about us, Mrs Bush? GRRRRRRRRRR
« Reply #44 on: June 21, 2007, 09:17:56 PM »
Cliff, cut farm subsidies? Damn, get my feet stepped on twice here. So a box of Corn Flakes will go to 7 dollars a box. Cost of anything made of plastic will rise in cost. We have to eat and have foreign trade, one of the biggest exports of the US is grain. Do you have any idea what farmers get for their grain.  Yesterday market: corn fall sales 3.58 bu., soybeans 8.10 bu, and wheat 5.35 bu. now you figure how much it costs to buy seed,plant,spray,harvest, dry and truck there is not a whole lot of money left. No one is going to make it rich on farming and I'm not getting in to livestock cause there is no money in it unless you are an industry farmer.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2007, 09:19:59 PM by RapidRod »

Offline jack

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Re: What about us, Mrs Bush? GRRRRRRRRRR
« Reply #45 on: June 21, 2007, 09:24:59 PM »
we have farm subsidies today for the simple reason that someone started them. It is not possible to stop any of these government programs once they are started.  they grow and they grow.  And as with all government programs,each one is important to some group of voters or supporters. Ryan White is very important to everyone here but farm subsidies are just as important to another group of voters and supporters. I am not supporting farm subsidies,they are idiotic, I am just saying its impossible to stop most government programs once they are started. Most grow into monstrous cash burning black holes. It is insanity. As an example, a guy like Al Gore who is adamantly opposed to cigarettes and tobacco industry has always been a big supporter of subsidies to tobacco farmers.  Someone explain that to me. How can that be? Well his national support is anti tobacco but his state support had a bunch of tobacco farmers. FUCK.
Why do we subsidize home builders by giving taxpayers a mortgage deduction that has put home prices into the stratosphere? Insanity.  Try to end that subsidy.

Offline mjmel

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Re: What about us, Mrs Bush? GRRRRRRRRRR
« Reply #46 on: June 21, 2007, 09:27:53 PM »
You GO Rod! Get it out, Baby! YIPPEEE! Someone speaking out for the farmers for a change...........and how they'll definitely change our world if they keep diminishing at the rate they have been.
xxx,
Mike

P.S. Jack. Jack. Jack. Farm subsidies idiotic? <<<BIG SIGH>>>
« Last Edit: June 21, 2007, 09:32:11 PM by mjmel »

Offline jack

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Re: What about us, Mrs Bush? GRRRRRRRRRR
« Reply #47 on: June 21, 2007, 09:31:59 PM »
see what I mean, here we have a supporter of farm subsidies.  Farm subsidies keep prices to consumers high and also help starve the Africans with hiv we are trying to keep alive.  We have so much fucking food we have to give it away to other countries, who dont plant their own crops cause we give it away. The world is insane.
If you cant stay in business on your own,tough shit. This is the US,you move,you find another business or occupation.  Gone off topic

Offline RapidRod

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Re: What about us, Mrs Bush? GRRRRRRRRRR
« Reply #48 on: June 21, 2007, 09:32:20 PM »
Jack if you would look they have lowered the farm subsidies compared to the 70s. You don't think we have farmers that have HIV?  You don't support farm subsidies Jack, but you like to eat? Think about it the next time you go to dinner.  

Offline jack

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Re: What about us, Mrs Bush? GRRRRRRRRRR
« Reply #49 on: June 21, 2007, 09:33:43 PM »
I dont wanna bum anyone out, but fuck the farmers. They should be no different than any other business. All the goop about the small farmer is bullshit. If you cant make it on your own,do something else.

 


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